This is Part 2 of a 2 part CRT created by both me (DarkGrath) and KnightOfSunlight. This will be largely overhauling massive aspects of the Persona verse as a whole, from Persona 3-5. This is extremely extensive, and as such has been separated into 2 parts, along with tabbers for all of the necessary information. Also, due to the fact that this is a massive overhaul (with even small, mostly inconsequential problems being mentioned) there will be a distinction made between Major and Minor parts of the revision. Considering the small and generally uncontroversial changes that Minor sections would have, Major sections should be focused on.
This second part will handle revisions related to Abilities/Resistances/Hax for characters within Persona 3, 4 and 5.
Without further ado, let's begin.
Feat: Ren and the Phantom Thieves have Mid-Godly regeneration, specifically only applicable when hit by Existence Erasure.
Problem: This… has a lot of problems. For starters, this is one of the highest possible interpretations of this feat, despite vague and ambiguous circumstances. Typically speaking, in the event of circumstances surrounding a feat being strange or difficult to explain, the most conservative backed up estimate is used. This, comparatively, is one of the most extreme assumptions about what this feat could be. Also, considering that he spawned back in the Velvet Room, with the Twins, Yaldabaoth, and even the Velvet Room itself being potential causes for him to spawn back in, the assumption that spawning back within the Velvet Room was his own innate ability specifically applicable when erased from existence is unsubstantiated. This is layered on further when you consider that he always spawns in the Velvet Room on death, or when you get the bad ending by genuinely dying to Akechi, so it's not even exclusive to existence erasure in the first place. On top of those points, it isn't even necessarily a Mid-Godly feat; all we really see occur is that their entire physical body fades away, but there isn't much indication that this also explicitly effects their souls. So even if it was legitimate, it'd most likely be a Low-Godly, or at best potentially a Mid-Godly feat. Not only that, but even if we assume that it was his own innate ability, given that it is not exclusive to when he is erased it'd likely be an outlier. At best, his regeneration feats have been around the range of Mid-Low, so basing his rating on a single, potentially Mid-Godly feat would be unreasonable
So in total, there are many different potential causes for how he could have returned to the Velvet Room that would not scale to his specific abilities. There are more conservative interpretations of this scene that could be used. It is not exclusive to when he is erased from existence. It isn't necessarily a Mid-Godly feat. And he consistently has Mid-Low regen feats at best. So giving him Mid-Godly, specifically only applicable when Existence Erasure is used is barely substantiated.
Solution: Remove Mid-Godly regen from Ren’s profile.
Feat: Ren, through resisting Yaldabaoth’s existence erasure upon revisiting the real world, gains resistance to all of Yaldabaoth’s distortions
Problem: While not necessarily impossible, whether he resisted existence erasure at all is already questionable. When Mementos and the Real World were first fused, it took quite a while for the Phantom Thieves to even begin losing their physical form, much less getting erased entirely. Considering that it is established they were erased due to the public’s cognition that they did not exist, and that they were recognised by the public within seconds of returning to the real world, they likely wouldn’t have had to even resist existence erasure even if we assume that Yaldabaoth’s distortions were being used on them. The public recognised their existence in a span of time far less than what it originally took for them to be erased, so they wouldn't have had to resist his existence erasure to survive. On top of this, for these resistances to be valid, it must be backed up that every single one of Yaldabaoth’s distortions are completely passive and active at all times (which is at best mildly implied and not enough to suggest that his resistances should be bumped to such an extreme level). Moreover, the assumption that this feat would make him resistant to all of Yaldabaoth’s distortions is an extreme NLF; there is no evidence that all of Yaldabaoth’s distortions are equal, and almost zero evidence that resisting one of them would imply you resist all of them. Stating that, even under the already questionable circumstances of Ren resisting existence erasure, that Ren therefore resists every ability Yaldabaoth has that could be considered a distortion is not a reliable statistic.
Solution: Remove resistances from Ren’s profile related to Yaldabaoth's distortions. Give Ren, at best, a “Possibly” for resisting Existence Erasure.
Feat: Ren does not need to use mental/spiritual energy any more to use abilities upon awakening to Satanael.
Problem: As far as I can find, this is based on the single ability that Satanael has, Sinful Shell, and the fact that you do not need to use any SP to perform it. This isn't a particularly reliable statistic. For example, in almost 100% of situations statistics like HP and SP in video games are treated purely as game mechanics. There are extremely rare exceptions for games like Undertale, where these game mechanics are explicitly a part of the lore and have meta implications. Stating that Ren does not need to exert any mental energy whatsoever to use Persona abilities anymore is a statistic based on quite a clear game mechanic with no backing as to the specifics in the lore. All we know is that it takes up energy to use Persona abilities, and that SP is how this is represented to the players. At best, we might be able to use SP as a vague generalisation of how much energy Persona users are taking up, but it is still almost entirely a game mechanic and should not be used for such extreme claims without extreme backing. The fact that it is a game mechanic is exacerbated by the fact that there wouldn't be any good way to represent the SP use of Sinful Shell in game anyway; if it required a specific amount of SP, and the player didn't have that level of SP, it would softlock. On top of that, even if we somehow assume SP to be a valid part of the lore, this is another NLF. He is only ever demonstrated using that single ability as Satanael, and it’s explicitly shown to be a very special ability. We have no idea if this applies to all of the abilities his Personas can use, and so it would be an extreme NLF to say that it does based on a single use of a special ability that doesn’t require it which he has only used once.
Solution: Remove this statement from Ren’s abilities and weaknesses section.
Feat: Several characters have outright invulnerability (rather than just high resistance) to specific abilities/manipulations that Persona’s can use
Problem: The evidence for this is extremely lacking and doesn't meet standards for burden of proof. Invulnerability/Immunity towards resistances is an extremely strict term used on the wiki, normally only ever used in situations where it’d be outright contradictory or paradoxical for someone to be affected by an ability (for example, someone without a soul would be Invulnerable to Soul Manipulation). There is almost nothing in the series that would be great enough evidence to suggest anything better than High Resistance, and being able to nullify the abilities that Personas/Shadows/whoever can use would not even come close.
Solution: Change out “Invulnerability/Immunity” to “High Resistance” on each of the profiles, unless the evidence in specific cases is very solid (examples include Ren being immune to Energy Projection and Omnipotent Orb users being immune to… a lot of things)
Feat: Makoto Yuki with the Universe Arcana is able to survive Nyx’s attacks through Empowerment
Problem: Despite I (DarkGrath, the one writing this section) having actually first came up with this idea before getting it implemented, these days with more experience on the wiki I’ve come to severely disagree with it. The Empowerment is mainly based off of him gaining power from the motivation of his teammates, but he was capable of surviving an extreme one-shot attack twice before his friends ever gave him any strength. While the ability he demonstrates in the fight does still seem like empowerment, it’s definitely not the full story; and there must be something else going on that helped him survive the first two one-shots before his teammates helped.
Solution: The actual ability used by the Universe Arcana that allowed him to survive in this battle is called Infinite Endure (though it should be noted that it is not visible in the menu during the battle with Nyx due to being a passive ability). The ability works exactly how Endure does, keeping you at the last inch of your life even when hit by a lethal attack, but it does so indefinitely. While it doesn’t seem like Endure is given much attention as an ability on profiles, the definition of it most closely fits Invulnerability. Infinite Endure would therefore be considered Invulnerability, and regular Endure would likely be considered limited Invulnerability (due to being a significantly more limited version of Infinite Endure). As such, Makoto with the Universe Arcana should get Invulnerability added to his profile and all of the protagonists like Ren and Yu (in their earliest keys) should have limited Invulnerability added to their profiles. Generally, any Persona users capable of using Endure should have limited Invulnerability added. To explain Makoto being able to nullify Nyx's Death after being hit several times with it, Makoto should also have Reactive Evolution added to his profile, as this explains him gaining high resistance to it so quickly and without changing Personas.
Feat: Insta-kill attacks have a 100% chance of working against anyone without resistance to them, and the only reason they don’t work 100% of the time against the characters is because of their resistances.
Problem: This is never stated, shown, or even implied to be the case throughout the whole series. This is especially questionable when you factor in characters who have weaknesses to insta-kill attacks, such as a weakness to curse increasing the chance of Mamudo from 10% to 20%. It’s explicitly shown that they are weaker to curses than someone would be under normal conditions, and yet they still only have a 20% chance of dying from it. There really isn't much evidence that any of the characters hit by insta-kill attacks inherently have more resistance to it than a regular person would, and as mentioned prior, some evidence even directly contradicts it.
Solution: Remove Resistance to Death Manipulation from characters who aren’t capable of resisting curse or bless. Generally speaking, this should also probably not be used as a major point in versus matches (as it has in the past).
Feat: Sinful Shell negates Type 8 Immortality due to killing Yaldabaoth
Problem: A lot of context has to be removed from the scene for this feat to be legitimate. Yaldabaoth is shown to gain his power through the people’s belief in him, which is seemingly where his Type 8 Immortality comes from in the first place; he’s immortal so long as humanity wishes to serve him. The very reason Ren was able to beat Yaldabaoth is because they managed to turn the people against Yaldabaoth, rising the people up against him which should have negated this part of his Immortality before ever using Sinful Shell. Stating that Sinful Shell negated Yaldabaoth's Type 8 Immortality is like stating that Harry Potter can negate Type 8 Immortality due to killing Voldemort after destroying the horcruxes.
Solution: Remove Immortality Negation from Ren’s profile for Satanael.In total, these are the changes proposed.
- Ren Amamiya - Remove "No longer requires SP" from abilities/weaknesses sections, Remove Immortality Negation, Add Limited Invulnerability
- Phantom Thieves (All) - Remove Mid-Godly regen, Remove resistances to Yaldabaoth's Distortions
- Makoto Yuki - Add Invulnerability, Add Reactive Evolution
- Shadow Sae - Remove Law Manipulation
- Many, many characters: Replace "Invulnerabilities/Immunities" towards abilities with "High Resistance", Remove resistance to Death Manipulation (only for characters without any level of curse/bless resistance)