FANDOM


  • Thebluedash
    Thebluedash closed this thread because:
    Fin again.
    07:01, July 20, 2017

    When having a logia devil-fruit user in a versus match-up, I still see a lot of conflict on their regeneration and how effective it is against a certain character from another verse.

    Aokiji's regeneration

    I'm going to discuss the regenerative ability of Logia users, and how effective it is in combat. Logia devil-fruit users are listed to have High-Mid Regeneration, but only in their logia-form, which means that they are capable of reforming their bodies from being shattered, or dispersed into small fragments. An example of this is when Whitebeard sent a shock-wave through the air that shattered Aokiji's entire body into pieces, but Aokiji was unharmed by this due to his ice-body reforming from the damage. Normal physical strikes would be completely useless against Logia users, as they would simply be able to regenerate from being blown into bits.

    The ways to circumvent a logia user's regeneration are actually quite simple. You'd have to attack them with an ability that they can not regenerate from (ex: Vaporization), or attack using an element that the logia user's body can not nullify (Monet's snow body being weak against heat-based attacks, or Ace's body being weak against heat that is superior to his own limit).

    So if we were to place Monet against someone like Natsu Dragneel, Natsu would be able to harm Monet's actual body with his flame-based attacks.

    I'd prefer input from staff who are knowledgeable with One Piece and the Versus rules in order to clear up the confusion in versus threads, and to correct me if I am wrong.

      Loading editor
    • You're not wrong, but we have a type of intangibility dedicated to stuff like this called fluid intangibility. There are other characters with it. Suika Ibuki, Cryogonal, Morpha, etc. But yes, it is regen as well, though it can be as high as Mid-High rather than High-Mid, depending on how they regenerate.

        Loading editor
    • Isn't it kind of a misnomer to say they have both intangibility and regeneration? I think on their case, both are included on their dispersion and reforming ability.

        Loading editor
    • Wait doesn't Haki from someone more powerful then the logia users Haki allow you to affect them?

        Loading editor
    • @The real cal howard - thank you for the input, and I see what you mean. The regen for logia users has only been shown up to High-Mid due to them only regenerating from attacks that would disperse their bodies into pieces, though I could be wrong, and there may be a Low-High feat somewhere.

      -snipped-

        Loading editor
    • @LordGriffin1000 - we're discussing in cross-verse match-ups, and haki isn't present here (though some people told me that verse equalization gives them haki, but I think that is wrong).

        Loading editor
    • That's what I was referring to, if Verse equalization is on, stronger people would be able to harm them but you are right I'm derailing the thread, my apologies.

      Anyway I think it's ok for them to have it.

        Loading editor
    • @LordGriffin basically said was I was gonna ask. In Verse Equalization that means Magic = Haki / Chakra = Haki correct?

        Loading editor
    • I need staff input on the effects of Verse Equalization on logia DF users.

        Loading editor
    • Don't necessarily think that verse equalization will mean that everyone who can use magic or chakra, could hurt logia's, i think you will need as cin said using an element that they can't nullify, but maybe other series have abilities similar to haki in how it functions, if that's the case, that should work on logia's.

        Loading editor
    • @Celestial - i agree with this, unless the OP specifically states that the logia dispersion is turned off, because I can see the logia regen making fights incredibly one-sided or inconclusive against people of the same tier.

      @The Staff - I am unsure what would qualify for Low-High regeneration, but I think Sabo has displayed such regeneration during Dressrosa. Is something like this higher than High-Mid regeneration, or am i mistaken by what I see?

        Loading editor
    • That seems like High-Mid regen to me, he still had the lower half of his body, not exactly a small piece of him, a small piece would just be like a puddle od blood or to get graphic something like an ear or finger i think.

        Loading editor
    • Verse equalisation means they can be hit.

      Normal humans cannot see or sense Shinigamis in Bleach. Same thing here

      They dont really regenerate either. They just disperse and reform

        Loading editor
    • The way I see it, in verse equalization, in order for an opponent to hit a logia fighter, his attacks must be coated with energy similar to Haki, since in One Piece, haki is the energy that flows through all living beings in the world.

      Haki is basically just like Ki/chi/chakra only those in one piece must learn to use it. Now magic could be argued depending on the verse as not being able to hit Logia as in several verses I've seen, normal energy and magic are considered distinct, now their are exceptions like Fairy tail where magic flows naturally and is the main source of energy for all characters so it would likely work on Logia.

      It makes sense if characters who have energy based attacks or projectiles could harm a Logia type being as in verse anything with haki could negate that intangiblity(in fact ever since the introduction of haki, since most characters have haki, Logia dispersion had become a near nonexistent ability used in combat.)

      So bottom line is the way I see it is. In a fight between a Logia character and another fictional character. If said fictional character does not attack with energy projectiles nor does he use energy to enchance his physical attacks, or have any natural elemental attacks to counter the element that the Logia user is made up of . Than Logia intangiblity would be able to work against him. Other wise it will be able to hit them.

        Loading editor
    • What Grudge said basically.

        Loading editor
    • Also agree with Grudge

        Loading editor
    • @Celestial - okay, I was just not sure what that would be classified as.

      @Grudge - I see, and I agree if that's the case.

      Since the logia bodies would be circumvernted by such attacks, I do want to ask if shapeshifting (Or something else) should be added to logia users' profiles, as characters such as Charlotte katakuri and Aokiji have used their logia dispersion to create holes in their bodies to avoid being hit by haki-infused strike, or in the case of Katakuri and Akainu, change the shape and size of their limbs all together?

      After this question is answered, I believe that this topic will be concluded.

        Loading editor
    • Think that's Body Control, not shape shifting

        Loading editor
    • @Celestial - I knew that I was going to bring up the wrong power. Then should we include that ability for Logia users?

        Loading editor
    • Yes

        Loading editor
    • Wait, just one question. Any user of Energy in general (like, a person with a laser gun, for example) can hurt a logia user here? Or is it just those with Mystical Energy (Free flowing Magic or Chi type shit) that has similar rules to Haki that works?

        Loading editor
    • @Anexium well How big is the laser, a normal laser gun I'm pretty sure they can regenerate from. But like cin said if the blast is potent enough it could vaporize them. So for them to be hurt specially like their organs or just make them bleed in general yah mystical or more specific natural flowing energy would be needed.

        Loading editor
    • @Grudge - i think he meant one producing energy in general being able to directly harm the user's body. If it's a vaporizing laser that takes out all of the body except a small piece, they are pretty much screwed, of course.

        Loading editor
    • I also think that Grudgeman makes sense. However, the question is what we are going to do about the conclusion? It seems a bit excessive to write a specific versus thread rule for logia characters alone.

        Loading editor
    • Also, it seems like we have problems deciding whether or not logias should be counted as having regeneration. There was a recent thread in which this was discussed as well.

        Loading editor
    • Btw I've been meaning to ask people this, but should we note this that Logia users need to be aware and react of an attack in order to phase through things like attacks. Like they aren't always in Logia form and if caught off guard can actually get hurt still.

        Loading editor
    • That seems like a noteworthy addition to their weakness sections, yes.

        Loading editor
    • Not sure If that's exactly a weaknesses or not. Didn't Crocodile find a way around that by training himself to instantly turn into his logia form to avoid being assassinated?

        Loading editor
    • That is a good point.

        Loading editor
    • It still a weakness imo, it's just a weakness that they can learn to work around, like a character with poor stamina can train to build said stamina but until he does so it's still a weakness.

        Loading editor
    • True enough.

        Loading editor
    • Good point. So basically it seems like Logia users that have experience with their fruit can find away with said Weakness but inexperienced Logia users can't? Sabo being an example.

      Also Smoker has Low-High regen in his profile. Should someone change that?

        Loading editor
    • I changed Smoker's regen to High-Mid.

      I don't know about logia users needing to be consciously aware of an attack to avoid it seeing as how the only time this type of scenario came up was when Smoker and Ace were hit by Luffy in a gag-scene. Has this happened on another occasion?

        Loading editor
    • @Cin I voeive it was around chapter 158 or 170 it talks about it. However most experienced Logia users have somewhat overcame this weakness due to them honing their reflexes to be alert. Like Enel when he has mantra on etc etc. however it's still a weakness if for say an enemy can turn invisible or just is overall faster than the Logia user.

        Loading editor
    • Uhm I'm sorry to bring this up since it appears to be a done topic but I sorta don't agree with grudge. I don't think haki can be equiparable to other energies (nen,chakra,chi or ki for example) by the way haki works and what it esentially is. Just by the get go, if we go with that definition we would have to add "energy manipulation" to every haki user and that doesn't sound quite right.

      As it's defined, Haki can hurt devil fruit users because Haki is more of a force that deals with the characters spirits and not their bodies, for example, when Sanji could use Haki when he had swapped bodies with Nami.

      The way Haki works is that it is a "force" that represents your "will" and you use it to overcome the enemie's own, to be more broad, Haki counts more as a softcore soul attack, It hurts the enemys real body TROUGH their soul/spirit, that is the reason why it hurts logia users, because it doesn't attack their elemental bodies, it attacks their spirit.

      this is the reason why I think that verse equalization wouldnt work on logia dispersion. Haki is not actually comparable to other kinds of energy manipulation.

      Now a list of abilities that bypass logia dispersion would be:

      -Antimagic/power nullification (Asta's swords or Aizawa's quirk would work)

      -Elemental manipulation (Natsu has shown to grab lighting and fire, he could punch other elemental beings)

      -Vaporization (this is a case by case, you can vaporize the solid ones but I have a hard time imagining someone vaporizing kizarus light form) this one is probably the only form of energy manipulation I can actually think would work on logia users.

      -Soul attacks and other conceptual attacks (Like that one fairy tail magic that has "hurts your enemy" as one of it's rules)

      -Direct counters based on a rock-paper-scissors system

        Loading editor
    • @Nedoiko pardon me but my definition of how Haki works is literally what the One piece Manga defined Haki. Don't believe me here's Silver Rayleigh explaining Haki when first properly introduced. "“ "Haki" is a power that lies dormant in all the world's creatures... "Presence", "fighting spirit" and "intimidation"...

      It is not different from the things that humans can naturally sense such as these... 'The act of not doubting'. That is strength!" ki and the like are defined as the manifestions of ones fighting spirit and energy, the difference is Haki (so far) hasn't shown any projectile like energy like for example DBZ, but for the most part ki can also be treated invisible as well to those who are not trained in it just like Haki.

      Don't apply assumptions like "attacking ones souls" unless you have viable evidence stating it or Heavily implying. Haki like ki is a viable to everyone, it's just it needs to be trained in order to unlock it(much like how normal people can't use ki unless TRAINED in it.)

        Loading editor
    • @Grudgeman1706 The thing is that youre going by Rayleights definition of it, And he may be an expert but this is pre to mid timeskip, when the concept is new and the reader shoulndt get confused by it, so it gets defined in simplistic ways. If you talk about assumptions then your argument has a big one too, you're assuming that "because logia users are affected by haki, it means it must be affected by other energy manipulation sources" when its actually the other way around, its "Because Haki can attack the real body of a logia user, it means that it can attack similar abilities as well", It would be like saying that "by virtue of having chakra, any character from naruto could have hurted Konan trought her paper form" when that wasn't the case. It's the Haki that can hurt logia users, it's not that the logia users are vulnerable to energy manipulation.

      for proof lets have Robin's definition of haki, which is much later and clarifying than Rayleights basic one and comes in a page where luffy literaly GRABS a logia user, something that no other energy manipulation ever has shown to do:

      https://i.gyazo.com/878d37f218f44eedbdbc56545c263ba8.jpg

      then there's the fact Haki originates from the soul, as shown when Sanji can use haki while in Nami's body:

      http://www5.mangafever.me/mangas/one_piece/one_piece_672/one_piece_672_10.jpg?v3

        Loading editor
    • @Nedo the scan u show doesn't provide a definition for haki it just says that it allows the user to grab the "real body" of a logia user, a far cry from the "soft core soul manipulation" ur suggesting. And because Sanji uses haki in Namis body doesn't mean it's part of the soul, haki is learnt so a transfer of the mind also equates to a transfer of skill, knowledge and experience, Sanji can still use haki because it's part of his "knowledge" not necessarily because it's part of his soul.

        Loading editor
    • @Nedo actually has somewhat of a point.

      I do remember reading that Armament Haki is the physical manifestation of one's Soul / Will. So that technically would fall under Soul Manipulation correct? Even though it's very limited Soul Manipulation.

        Loading editor
    • @Grudge and @Nedoiko - From what I understand, we're not flat out suggesting that an opponent would automatically have "haki", but energy-based attacks (produced from ki, chakra, etc, but not from a gun) would be capable of directly harming the logia user's body.

      Physical attacks and the like would still be totally worthless in live combat, and I'd also like to mention that logia users can utilize their own haki in order to cancel out the attacks of other haki users. The most notable showing is when Akainu was struck by Vista and Marco, who he stated were using haki, yet he was still capable of using his logia-form. Another showing of this, but for a Paramecia user was when Luffy used his haki to protect himself from a haki infused attack from Doflamingo, while also maintaining his rubbery body while in Gear 4th. How would this come into play in a versus match-up?

      Also, I'd like to point out that I believe that I've added Body Control for all of the Logia users, and if i missed any pages, someone should add it like how I placed it on Sabo's profile.

      Also, I still don't buy the whole "the logia user must be fully aware" to turn into the element, and the thing that happened here was for humor, unless that's no excuse. I still can't find anything confirming this.

        Loading editor
    • CinCameron20 wrote:
      @Grudge and @Nedoiko - From what I understand, we're not flat out suggesting that an opponent would automatically have "haki", but energy-based attacks (produced from ki, chakra, etc, but not from a gun) would be capable of directly harming the logia user's body.

      Physical attacks and the like would still be totally worthless in live combat, and I'd also like to mention that logia users can utilize their own haki in order to cancel out the attacks of other haki users. The most notable showing is when Akainu was struck by Vista and Marco, who he stated were using haki, yet he was still capable of using his logia-form. Another showing of this, but for a Paramecia user was when Luffy used his haki to protect himself from a haki infused attack from Doflamingo, while also maintaining his rubbery body while in Gear 4th. How would this come into play in a versus match-up?

      Also, I'd like to point out that I believe that I've added Body Control for all of the Logia users, and if i missed any pages, someone should add it like how I placed it on Sabo's profile.

      I know what you mean, the thing is that Haki has never been flat out describe as a form of energy manipulation, not even going by rayleights description. by its characteristics, it makes much more sense that Haki can affect characters such as Konan or Suigetsu, than simply every logia user being affected by energy manipulation with the only basis being "haki is similarly described as how chakra or ki is" when chakra is not explicitly stated to "hurt the true body" of an enemy

        Loading editor
    • @Nedoiko - i understand your view, and can find a way to support it, but a logia user has not yet been shown avoiding anything energy based. That being said, we can't just say that all ki-based attacks are going to be effective against a logia user, especially the haki users that have clearly taken precautions against them, such as Aokiji and Akainu, who have nearly completely nullified the effects of a haki attack.

      Someone could argue that a logia user can use haki to circumvent the effects of a ki-based attack, but we know for sure that a logia user is not going to come back if almost all of his body is destroyed, they are completely vaporized, or they are struck fatally by an attack that circumvents their logia-form (i.e another element, soul absorption, destruction, etc).

      I'd say that a logia user like Aokiji could avoid a ki-attack by using his haki to mitigate the effects of the said attack. Would that be wrong?

      But Haki (Busoshoku version) is definitely not soul manipulation. It is more on the lines of Limited Power Nullification, as long as the haki is touching the logia user.

      @Grudge - Would haki ever be considered to be a limited form of Power Nullification?

        Loading editor
    • CinCameron20 wrote:
      @Nedoiko - i understand your view, and can find a way to support it, but a logia user has not yet been shown avoiding anything energy based. That being said, we can't just say that all ki-based attacks are going to be effective against a logia user, especially the haki users that have clearly taken precautions against them, such as Aokiji and Akainu, who have nearly completely nullified the effects of a haki attack.

      Someone could argue that a logia user can use haki to circumvent the effects of a ki-based attack, but we know for sure that a logia user is not going to come back if almost all of his body is destroyed, they are completely vaporized, or they are struck fatally by an attack that circumvents their logia-form (i.e another element, soul absorption, destruction, etc).

      I'd say that a logia user like Aokiji could avoid a ki-attack by using his haki to mitigate the effects of the said attack. Would that be wrong?

      well of course Id agree with that since pure energy attacks can basically destroy anything, you can vaporize sand, sludge, mochi, even lava, but for example, something that is already vapor (not sure if caesar would count) or something that can't be vaporized (how do you vaporize light?), that's the point where I don't think Ki attacks would work and logia dispersion would work as normal.

      then there's chakra, making a little matchup here, lets put Caribou, user of the numa numa no mi (he turns into swamp/sludge/mud) vs Sakura haruno, Lets say Caribou maintains his logia form without "turning it off" the entire time, and Sakura tries to hurt him with a chakra scalpel, which is simply chakra in the form of a blade and the purest form I can think of using chakra as a direct attack, the question would be, according to this verse equalization, would it work on caribou? I honestly doubt it, as the technique is not specified to do that, and I think it would work the same if in a similar situation sakura used it against konan, suigetsu or someone like Juvia Lockster.

      It simply makes much more sense to say that "haki is more of an unique power with unique capabilities agains intangible foes" than to say "all logia users are vulnerable to any kind of energy manipulation", Haki is simply too different to energy manipulation to be considered as such

        Loading editor
    • @Cin considering Robin flat out states it doesn't negate the persons power but just allows it to grab or hit the real body of devil fruit users. I wouldn't call it limited power nullification.

      @Nedoiko I understand you don't think all types of energy should hurt Logia users. But your example of could Sakura hit caribou with that chakra scalpel I actually do think it would work. Look at this way, robin states Haki works differently from seastone energy so it's powers is not like natural energy that is emitted from well the earth. However from the statement we got about Haki(for now due to his experience, he's our most trustworthy source until contradicted otherwise.) Haki is the energy that is connected to all living beings, a manifestation of ones "will" and "fighting spirit".

      So how about this, if the opponents energy attacks do not come from ones own body and or connected to their fighting spirit or is spiritual in general. It won't be able to hit Logia users.

      I do not know how chakra works in Naruto so I can't debate with it. But for other verses like DB,HNK,maybe FT(only for certain characters) ,yu yu hakusho(off the top of my head.) I do believe they could hit Logia users as their attacks due originate from some kind of spiritual energy or "will" and "fighting spirit".

      Also energy manipulation Follows a wide range of different categories and sub abilities. So it falls under it regardless.

        Loading editor
    • I don't think making them vulnerable to any type of Energy Manipulation is good, but I don't think that saying haki is unique enough to make all other concepts that are similar to it be unable to affect logia. Haki is very similar in concept to Chi, and many forms of Chi in different verses are similar to each other and haki. Making the argument that Haki is too different to have the same rules apply to it as Chakra Genjutsu against a DBZ character is absurd. By that logic, Itachi can't cast a Genjutsu on anyone not in the Naruto verse because they don't have Chakra specifically, and the list goes on. Haki is very similar in concept to Chi, even with slight differences. So I propose that any character that can use Chi or a force similar in concept to Chi, like Chakra or Nen, or Fairy Tale's brand of Magic, as it is from the lifeforce of a being rather than an external source-- they should be able to hit him. Saying otherwise is like saying because I shot Kizaru with my laser gun that is made of non-mystical energy and shit, it can't faze through him-- which is an overapplication of verse equalization, making concepts that aren't close to being similar effect the logia users when we all know they shouldn't.

        Loading editor
    • @grudgeman1706

      I insist, it is not that Logias are vulnerable to haki, it's that haki specifically has the property of "Attacking the true body", something other energy manipulation abilities don't have unless specifically stated.

      Consider this, Outside of logia intangibility, this would also mean that every energy manipulation ability like a chakra enhanced punch would hurt the real body of luffy trough his rubber body? just by virtue of being energy manipulation doesn't mean it should bypass a power based invulnerability

        Loading editor
    • Guys, don't quote long blocks of text.

        Loading editor
    • And, when Aokiji and Akainu nullified Haki effectiveness, wasn't it because their haki was Superior to the opponent who was attacking them-- kind of like what Big Mom did to Luffy's gear 4th punch. And, iirc, Aokiji avoided an attack from Whitebeard by shaping his body around his weapon so that it would miss him. As for the claim of there not being enough evidence to claim that Chi or Chakra/Spirit Energy concepts do the same to Logia users by "attacking their true body", Ki in DBZ doesn't have a Network or Nodes that it flows through, yet we can have Genjutsu placed on Krillin via Verse equalization. Nen has nodes, Chakra has Tenketsu, but they both work slightly differently. That doesn't write off the fact they are both similar in base concept when you get right down to the "Chi" Trope used so much in Anime. Reiatsu acts different than Reiki from Yu Yu Hakusho, and yet they are both under the Chi Trope. People can't see Shinigami without a concept exclusive to Bleach allowing them to. You see what I mean? I think that instead of working so hard to find individual powers and abilities that work on Logia because "Haki is special" just like every other version of Chi is different across verses, we can go by the basic Trope and be done with it. Cyclops from X-men shouldn't be able to ignore Logia intangibility unless his eye beans fire Chi or something.

      As for Logia users defending against Haki, why not compare who has better use of their "Chi" ability Trope to determine if someone can hurt them. That's the real debate. Even if we go by specific instances where all abilities match, will the Haki of the Logia user be effective in countering the enemy?

        Loading editor
    • @Grudge - I agree that the energy should come directly from a person's body if it is to work against a logia user.

      I do want to bring up a point that I believe was overlooked in an earlier post. Since Akainu and Aokiji are examples of logia users with haki and they can mitigate damage inflicted by haki users by maintaining their haki on their own bodies. Aokiji's body still dispersed, despite taking small damage when he was struck by Jozu, and Akainu was visibly irritated after Marco and Vista attacked him. Would there be any effect on this in a versus match-up in any way?

        Loading editor
    • I always considered haki being able to hit devil fruit users an in-verse power type deal. It's the power to affect devil fruit users nothing more.

        Loading editor
    • CinCameron20 wrote:
      @Grudge - I agree that the energy should come directly from a person's body if it is to work against a logia user.

      I'm looking more into the definition and capabilities of haki, I really believe that the argument that any energy attack (specifically talking at the body orginated ones like ki or chakra) can hurt logias has all kinds of fallacies slapped all over it. the argument is directed towards the wrong target (we can't assume that Haki is comparable to other energy types enough to make a verse equalization, and it's not that "logias are weak to haki", it's that "haki is strong against logias".  and we are also completelly ignoring that there are other paramecia related powers that haki works against), the fact that Rayleight defines it similarly is not enough to make it comparable to other energy manipulations, specially since it doesnt work like other verses energy manipulation in the sligthest (and I know chakra and ki are different in that aspect too, but they share common traits that are much more comparable than what they share with haki) and there's the issue of said verses energy manipulation being unable to do damage to similar abilities of their own verse.

        Loading editor
    • @Nedokio

      But is Haki's ability to hit the "true body" really enough to justify it being seen as something that can't be equalized across other verses? And would we be ok with applying similar situations similarly-- for example, if Neji fought Kid Goku, would the Gentle Fist actually work on him the way it would everyone else, nullifying Goku's chi use. DBZ does not have Tenketsu or anything even similar, and I would argue that the definition Rayleigh gave fits many definitions of a Chi Trope. Lots of Verses have their own spin on things, but that doesn't mean Verse equalization doesn't work because of special aspects. I agree/love your analysis, but in the case of Verse equalization, delving into how things don't properly translate is counterintuitive to the idea of V.E.

      I'm certain I'm the minority, and you'll probably ignore me, but if you can convince me (and anyone who thinks like me) that Haki doesn't fall under the Chi Trope, and can't be equalized beyond stating that this brand of Chi functions differently than DBZ's brand of Chi (because it's not DBZ's brand of Chi).

      On the other hand, I can add to this by saying that Haki does negate Devil Fruit Powers to an extent. If Luffy gets hit with Armament Haki, he's get hurt like it was a regular punch, iirc. So, yes, I agree Haki does have special properties that set it apart from other Chi tropes, but a lot of series do. Bleach should KO everyone who can sense their presence because they have massive seizure inducing Spiritual Pressure (on some Conqueror's shit) and other verses don't.

      I mean, still, IMO Haki ignoring Devil Fruit Powers is just part of their verses's physics. Can we really say that Haki would be able to ignore the metal body of Colussus (as cool as that is... OMG that's so awesome!)? I mean, with verse equalization maybe, but we'd have to be consistent with Chi being able to hit Logia.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: The question is what we are going to do about the conclusion? It seems a bit excessive to write a specific versus thread rule for logia characters alone.

      I am still uncertain about this.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant

      Which is why I think we should just equalize by tropes in this case. We could write something on the One Piece verse page like "As long as the ability used to attack the Logia user falls under or is similar enough to the Chi Trope, the Logia users can be hit by it.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not sure what everyone wants to do in regards of logia users vs an opponent cross-verse.

        Loading editor
    • Amexim wrote:
      @Nedokio

      I'm certain I'm the minority, and you'll probably ignore me, but if you can convince me (and anyone who thinks like me) that Haki doesn't fall under the Chi Trope, and can't be equalized beyond stating that this brand of Chi functions differently than DBZ's brand of Chi (because it's not DBZ's brand of Chi).

      I'm trying to explain you, we are tackling the argument from the wrong side, Just because haki works on logia, it doesn't mean that every chi type power will negate the logia body. This whole thread is "atributting a weakness to logia types", when in reality, we should be "atributting an advantage to haki", for example, In a... lets say Garp vs Juvia Lockster, Garp should be able to hurt juvia trought her water body due to verse equalizaion, it is Haki what should equalize to the other energy types, and not the oposite. Haki is a type of power that "hurts the enemy trought their superpowered bodies, and hurts their base form" to say it somehow, again the example with Luffy being made of rubber, but Haki ignoring this fact, but this not meaning that every sakura's enhanced punch should bypass luffy's rubber body. and with the example you gave, I don't know colossus all that much so going by his profile saying that he has a base form and that he turns into metal, I think haki would bypass it, If i'm not mistaken, the same has happened to Daz Bones steel body.

      what I'm saying is. Is the energy type strong against the logia in question? (for example, a Ki blast big enough to entirely vaporize crocodiles sand or aokijis Ice) If thats the case, then it works, but simply "Enhancing your punch with ki" shouldn't, another example, Unless it is a very massive one, A rasengan should Only disperce Ace's fire body

        Loading editor
    • I'll say my opinion again, haki should be treated as a in verse only ability that affects devil fruit users.

      Logias manually turns into their logia form, its not automatic, so if the opponent is faster, they can be able to hit.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with blue.

        Loading editor
    • Chi/ki/chakra/whatever being compared to haki here is a joke.

      Thats like saying chakra absorbing techniques affects people with chis. They don't, it doesn't make any sense and people are pulling at strings here.

        Loading editor
    • "I do not know how chakra works in Naruto so I can't debate with it. But for other verses like DB,HNK,maybe FT(only for certain characters) ,yu yu hakusho(off the top of my head.) I do believe they could hit Logia users as their attacks due originate from some kind of spiritual energy or "will" and "fighting spirit".

      Even if their similar thats not how it works. Busoshoku haki is not Dragon Ball's ki for example.

      Busoshoku Haki creates an armor that covers the user's "insert weapon/body parts" and allows them to enhance said thing. It also allows them to affect devil fruit. Just because the "will" part is similar to ki in some series doesn't make any sense to let them affect devil fruit users.

      Thats like saying chakra attacks will work on ki characters it doesn't.

        Loading editor
    • (Good example provided by a friend)

      "I see no reason why soul hax from NGE would work on souls from Bleach when they are completely different in composition and mechanics"

      This is the same as haki in this case. The only thing similar to haki and ki is the fact that haki is powered by will ( and note not even all ki are powered by will) and second ( it exists in all humans).

      You know how many verses have powers that "exists" in all humans. Wow, lets all make them being able to be afffected ki, makes sense to me.

        Loading editor
    • Thebluedash wrote:
      Chi/ki/chakra/whatever being compared to haki here is a joke.

      Thats like saying chakra absorbing techniques affects people with chis. They don't, it doesn't make any sense and people are pulling at strings here.

      well the whole topic is about verse equalization and some of the examples you give should indeed work, like the chakra absortion ones

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Bluedash

        Loading editor
    • My problem with verse equalization is that everyone automatically assumes that logia users wont be able to enter their logia form, when I don't buy it. I just don't quite understand how exactly verse equalization would work in this scenario anyways.

      I would personally like to stick with "Unless you can bypass the Logia user's regen, or use soul hax, or use an element that can bypass the fluid-intangibility, you're not really going to get anywhere unless you're vastly stronger than said Logia, or can blitz them".

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Cin.

        Loading editor
    • Agree with Cin. Verse equalization doesn't allow you to bypass elemental intangibility, and equalizing haki to ki/chakra is a an improper way to equalize since haki is not an energy/life source, you don't die if haki is drained. It's a dormant ability that can be activated and mastered through training and is very specialized (much like food luck in toriko). Every random fodder with chakra and ki can't hurt logia

        Loading editor
    • Joseph619 wrote:
       haki is not an energy/life source, you don't die if haki is drained. 

      This is actually an extremelly good point, Luffy is so far the only person who has "exhausted" his haki pool, and all he got was unable to move and unable to use it for 10 minutes. instead other chi abilities seem to be possibly fatal if you run out of it or overexert it.

        Loading editor
    • That is a point.

        Loading editor
    • I know blue is with me on this, but to question the rest of the staff, can we agree with my last post that haki isn't affected by verse equalization, and a logia user's body would function normally in a versus match-up, only vulnerable to the above weaknesses?

      I also want to, again, point out that I've added Body Control to all Logia user's profiles since we have evidence that users like Aokiji can put holes in his own logia body, and other common usages from Katakuri, Smoker, and Akainu show them altering the shape and size of their limbs to various degrees.

      If these two things are okay with the majority, this topic will be concluded and we'll move on.

        Loading editor
    • @Cin: If you have time please respond to my post on your wall. Thanks

        Loading editor
    • I suppose that CinCameron20 and Thebluedash seem to make sense, but I am still uncertain about how we should approach writing a rule about this? Should we place it as a footnote in the verse page?

        Loading editor
    • @Ant - making it into a rule on the versus thread rules seems unnecessary, but I do believe a footnote on the verse page would be necessary, seeing as how the reason I made this thread in the first place was primarily to bring up how people state that an opponent is granted haki via verse equalization, rendering logia intangibility null in void.

      So I definitely say yes to a foot note on the verse page.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. Does anybody have a suggestion for the wording?

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote:
      Okay. Does anybody have a suggestion for the wording?

      Equalizing haki would be like trying to equalize food luck in Toriko. Neither are energy/life source so it would be incorrect to compare it to chi. It should be mentioned on One Piece page

      I also recommend a page on haki is created to avoid confusion in future

        Loading editor
    • Yes, but we need an actual text segment to unsert as a footnote.

      CinCameron20 is probably the best candidate for creating a Haki page.

        Loading editor
    • As this argument is current revolving around haki...One more reason why this verse equalization doesn't work trying to compare haki with chi is because: You can't drain haki out of a person who hasn't activated it. However you can drain people out of chi and kill them, regardless of whether they learned chi control. Learning to use haki and controlling chi are not the same thing. Life in one piece does not depend on haki. However life is completely dependent on chi and chakra which are life essence. Haki is not a life essence. We have never seen anybody dying because of lack of haki (since most people in OP don't even have haki activated), however one can overexert themselves by using haki too much as it's taxing. 

        Loading editor
    • Okay.

        Loading editor
    • The reason why Haki can't be used in verse equalization is because giving the opponent's chi-based abilities the power to simply hit a logia user (via busoshoku variant of haki) would be the equivalent of giving a One Piece character the ability to utilize Ninjutsu, for example.

      Kenbunshoku, Busoshoku, and Haoshoku are abilities that use haki, whereas Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, and even Taijutsu to an extent use chakra. In order to strike the real body of a logia, you must have a level of Busoshoku that is comparable, or superior to the logia's own ability to use that haki. You can't just give an opponent the ability to use Busoshoku, because then that would mean you must hand them the ability to use Kenbunshoku, granting them precognition and clairvoyance, seeing as how both powers can be learned by anyone in One Piece who unlocks the power of haki.

      There's also the fact that haki is hardly anything like chi, given that it is not essential to life or any form of life energy. You don't need haki to live.

      For those reasons, after thinking about it, I find it fairly ridiculous to say that verse equalization would allow an opponent to just suddenly harm a logia user with chi-based attacks.

      Joseph's statement could work for a description explaining why haki is not in verse equalization.

      I can make a page about haki, but it will take a little time to make it since I don't want to put half of my effort into it.

        Loading editor
    • Take your time, this isn't necessary something that needs to be done fast.

        Loading editor
    • CinCameron20 wrote:
      The reason why Haki can't be used in verse equalization is because giving the opponent's chi-based abilities the power to simply hit a logia user (via busoshoku variant of haki) would be the equivalent of giving a One Piece character the ability to utilize Ninjutsu, for example.

      With verse equalization, if someone from Naruto that can only be hurt from Senjutsu battles say Natsu from FT, he won't be hurt from his flaming attacks because they are basically ninjutsu from FT.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I agree with your reasoning, but again, somebody still needs to write a concise footnote explanation for the verse page.

        Loading editor
    • Also, yes, there is no hurry with the haki page.

        Loading editor
    • CinCameron20 wrote:

      For those reasons, after thinking about it, I find it fairly ridiculous to say that verse equalization would allow an opponent to just suddenly harm a logia user with chi-based attacks.

      Also this would severely limit the amount of matchups these characters get, because no one save other characters from One Piece use Haki.

        Loading editor
    • If the character is faster than the the logia user, they can still hit them. The logia process is manual, not automatic, if what I'm getting is you thinking that now they can't fight anyone outside One Piece.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah good luck with that, 95% of the fights have speed equalized. Unless the other character has something to get around the intangibility in one way or another, the match would be completely one-sided.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I don't really care about that if you're only concern is "not being able to make as many fights".

      Anyways, I think it's settled, Cin will make it whenever he wants and I'll close this.

        Loading editor
    • Rin Rokudo wrote:
      Yeah good luck with that, 95% of the fights have speed equalized. Unless the other character has something to get around the intangibility in one way or another, the match would be completely one-sided.

      And why do fights matter? This is an indexing site where abilities are described accurately, they're not made for vs threads in mind. If there's a similar mechanism to haki anywhere it could be used for equalization. Logias are not invincible, they can still be interacted with using elemental attacks which plenty of verses posses (Naruto for example has many characters who can affect logias). Just because logia fruits are strong doesn't mean we have to nerf it unfairly to make it fair for others. I find it ridiculous that a valid ability like elemental intangibility (which is not even NLF, it has clear limitations both in and outside of One Piece) is being tried to be nerfed using inaccurate analogies to equalize. 

        Loading editor
    • @Joseph619 i don't know if you are completely looking at my points alone but just in case I ignore you have some things mis interpreted. I never explicitly said ki and Haki or chi is connected to their life essence or force. versus like dragon ball or HNK for example also don't die if they are drained by their Ki, they are left exhausted just like Haki is.

      My whole point that certain energies like Ki could work the same way as Haki was literally based on the only explicit statement of what Haki is.

      Maybe I generalized certain energies like chi or chakra, as I don't know fictions like Naruto very well and how it works and the verses I know that use chi is worked the same way as Ki.

      I'm also not suggesting that every single energy attack would work on Logia users. Again I pointed out it has to work the same way Haki works in order to argue it could hit Logia users, and the requirements are just not very difficult to accomplish.

      1. Has to be a natural energy that CANbe found in every living being.

      2. Has properties or origins that use the power of ones fighting spirt aka aura and or will and ambition.(this ones still a work on but the idea is that it's orgins are the same description as Haki or shown to be powered similar to Haki.

      3. Can use said attacks like Bushoku Haki where one channels their energy into their physical attacks(think iron fist as an example.)

      4. Nature based energies should only work if the element is opposite to said Logia user( if ace fights a user like let's say juvia from fairy tail, her element naturally affects ace.) however attacks with sources that aren't natural like lasers from machines or unatrual like most magics wouldn't work on Logia users.

      I agree with some of Thebluedashes points on Haki and how verse equalization should work but he's trying to make out Haki as some sort of incredibly unique and exclusive energy. Points I agree is examples like Hakis nullifying effects on devil fruit users I believe should remain as an in verse ability. Also agree that certain energies should not be allowed to effect Logia beings unless it meets the criteria.

      You guys can sort out what energies in other fictions should or shouldn't work on Logia. A solid basis I can advise is if it's like Ki and it's readily available to Everyone than it can hurt Logia. However if it's special and considered separate from the verses natural known energy and or requires special traits or abilites to unlock like magic. Than it won't work. Simple as that.

      Another example I could give is To Aru, according to a friend theirs about 4 different energies manipulated "esper" "telesma" "magic" and one other one I can't seem to recall. Yah most of these energies are exclusive to certain users like AIM is to Espers so it can be agreed it wouldn't bypass Logia dispersion.

      However it seems as though certain natural energies can be an exception to the rule if it's natural example Chakra seems to be an energy that most people can't agree would work.

      I'd appreciate if some Naruto experts could briefly explain how chakra works and it's origins and does it have similar properties to Haki.

      I don't mind certain in verse abilites being limited to only the verse. But something like Haki which isn't a exclusive or special power in one piece not to mention its many many similarities to other verses natural energies should be thought as the only way Logia users should be affected.

        Loading editor
    • Again sorry I had to re open this, I wanted to respond to the thread but work and life took most of my time.

        Loading editor
    • @Rin - a lot of match-ups cross-verse are mismatches anyways, and a logia user is still susceptible to attacks if he drops his guard, or is against any form of hax. melting, vaporizing, etc. can still harm or potentially kill a logia user, and Natsu--due to being a flame user--would still be able to deal damage to someone like Monet or Aokiji by merely using his standard flame attacks (ignoring any stat differences, of course).

      Don't forget that a DF user is still weakened to the point of incapacitation if they end up waist-deep or completely submerged in water. DF users have their massive weaknesses despite being fairly hax in their own right.

      Haki has never been the only way to harm a logia user. Look at Luffy vs Crocodile -- Water and Blood force Crocodile's body to solidify, allowing physical strikes to connect to his real body and deal damage. Luffy vs Enel is another example.

        Loading editor
    • Perhaps we should drop the circular discussion, and focus on the new footnote text section instead? Then we can close the thread.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant - As I said in the wall discussion, I can place one after thinking over it, and where to place the note.

        Loading editor
    • Placing it at the bottom of the page seems fine to me. Just make sure that it is concise.

        Loading editor
    • So, with the relevant part out of the way, I am fine with if we close this thread again.

        Loading editor
    • Will do.

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.