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  • So, there's this calc I made.

    http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:The_real_cal_howard/Pokemon_use_Thunder

    I can't really upgrade without a true consensus, and the results were mixed. The math was accepted. If accepted logically, then it scales to all Pokemon that are currently tier 7 (except Porygon 2), and push them to High 7-A, as the Low End is what everyone wanted. Would likely push Mega Pokemon into 6-C, and would definitely push all legendaries to 6-C at the very least.

    For it: Myself, Matt, PaChi2, CP, Executor N0, Overlord, SomebodyData, Weekly, TMR, Dragon, Kaltias, Seed, GKS, Antvasima, Darkanine, Ever, Aridwolverine, and Azzy (Azzy confirmed that he's perfectly fine with it on my wall.)

    Iffy: Saik, Imaginym, and AN (their only problem is the scaling, but Saik doesn't mind it. AN seems to be changing his mind). Prom also doesn't think it's outlandish, but she believes it's fair to be skeptical.

    Against it: Xcano, Aiden, Dark649, LordAizenSama, Blue, Assaltwaffle, Grudgeman1706, Arigarmy, Antoniofer, and Kuuichigo

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    • Hmm.... Doesn't seem too bad IMO . It looks good. One of a few questions i have about this is : Would this effect Anime Ash ?

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    • Likely, though he's becoming 6-C anyway.

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    • Wait.. he was ? Through what scaling ? 

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    • An Anime!Alakazam calc

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    • I see.. Either way, i am good with the upgrade... 

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    • I have mixed feelings about it. I'll wait to hear other opinions.

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    • I'm alright with it, it helps explain the Tyranitar problem (finally). Though I'm curious, is there any more High 7-A feats?

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    • Not to my knowledge (closest thing is Tyranitar's casual thing), not counting Moltres' latent energy, but this has been High 7-A from Gens III to VII, regardless of the incarnation of the animation. Hurricane might be able to get around this, but not sure.

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    • Would Tyranitar stay the same... or would he become something like : At least High 7-A ? 

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    • This seems fine to me from a glance.

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    • I'm fine with it.

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    • @Seed. Idk, though a lot of Pokemon should get At least High 7-A.

      Tbh, best end would be to use 4 foot 8 as the height, as that's the height of Lucas, the trainer. But I greatly prefer this result.

      Hence the "At least"

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    • As awesome and appealing as Large Mountain Level+ Porygon-Z would be for my childhood self...

      We're already being generous enough with our Pokemon ratings here. Yes our "lolfeats" attitude was pretty ridiculous, but we don't want our "lolscaling" attitude to be just as bad. We need some sort of balance.

      Although 7-B to High 7-A+ shouldn't be that big of a gap, so I wouldn't call it an outlier. I'm 50/50 on this, trapped between incredulity and hype.

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    • Well luckily this is consistent with Tyranitar's stuff at least.

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    • @Cal I see.. Wait, is there a calc for Zap Cannon ? And to what pokemons does the move scale to ? Sorry if i seem overbearing with the multitude of questions.  

      @Dragon I agree completely

      @Arbitrary I agree to an extent. But... this isn't as ridiculous as it seems to be. If it is consistent enough, i don't see how it cannot be accepted. I would like to hear more new opinions before this ends, though ? 

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    • Well if this is consistent, i don't have a problem with it.

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    • I gotta say, that I totally disagree with this scaling. Specially when Thunder either comes from the user, or the cloud is already formed. Also, the damaging part is the Thunder. Or you actually believe the creators take info consideration the power of the cloud forming? Of course not.

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    • For starters, no cloud feat takes into consideration the power of cloud forming/dispersing. Second, here's what Azzy said about that:

      "What do you want me to say? I don't see a problem with the math, and the way Thunder is described makes it sound like legit lightning.

      "A wicked thunderbolt is dropped on the target to inflict damage."

      Note use of "dropped". As in, actually from the sky and not directly from the Pokemon itself."

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    • I agree with Xcanos post in the blog (That is to say, I disagree with the upgrade) Attack animations tend to be dodgy, especially in these sorts of games. Galaxy level Fate ccc Gilgamesh comes to mind.

      Also what Aiden said.

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    • Yeah, but calcing the f***ing Energy of the cloud formation is just.... Well, this is honestly ridiculous. Don't count with my agreement on this one.

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    • @Aiden An author's interpretation of their own character is no more relevant than that of the audience's. It's better to go by the information that's present than to make baseless assumptions on what the author intended to convey, especially if what the author says is blatantly contradicted by what's shown.

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    • @LAS. We had a whole thread recently about attack animation scrutiny, in which the consensus was that that idea was pure bias against JRPGs.

      @Aiden. There are dozens of calcs like that, along with dispersion, both on here and the OBD. That's not a good reason.

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    • Prety much what Arbitrary said. If Author statements / what they thought about  feats mattered over consistent feats and statements in said series, most characters wouldn't be where they are currently in terms of tier.

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    • @cal I just looked at said thread and it was contested, favouring a case by case basis.

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    • @Cal yeah, but if my whole intention its to hit you with lightning, and you calc the Energy of the f***ing cloud formation: What I'm supposed to think?


      Also, in against this. But this technically would only scale to those able to learned naturally... So High 7-A Jolteon and Pikachu. Man, red got lucky with that starter. Seriously, this is ridiculous. I Can maybe accept it for said... Raikou. But anybody else is just... Wank everyone.

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    • Case by case, yes, but said case is basically your Gil example, in which it wouldn't be counted, and majority of the time, it's not really gonna be like that.

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    • Yeah.. and the whole enviromental destruction/creation controversy is another reason to be against this.

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    • Forgive me & please correct me if i am wrong. This would scale ONLY to the following :

      Third evolution line pokemon ,  Psuedo-Legendaries  , Legendaries (OBVIOUSLY) , Gym Leaders ( Likely mid-journey and end-journey ) , Rival Trainers ( between Mid-Journey Gyms, End-Journey Gyms and right before Elite 4 )  , Elite Fours , Champions ,  Anime trainers ( Gym Trainers ,  Elite 4 level trainers , League level trainers , etc... ) , Those participating in the Battle Tree , World Championship contestants , Title Defense Trainers 

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    • Even though I have a character who's main feat comes from cloud formation (Sarah Kerrigan), I am against this.

      Animations changes from game to game. Sprites change from game to game. Using horizon scaling from a sprite-based game and adding cloud formation on top of that is just getting ridiculous.

      If there is a Thunder user in the anime that uses it I would much MUCH prefer to get a calc from that, rather than use sprite scaling in the animation of an attack from a more than decade old game. I am a huge fan of Pokemon but this seems too far.

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    • @Aiden, that is completely against the scaling you came up with. Not all Pokémon that can learn Hurricane or Twister or Earth Power are 8-A, and I'm still unsure why you put Horsea there. Don't use that argument, let alone strawmanning my argument by saying Pikachu scales, and the Argument from Incredulity.

      @LAS. That was dropped ages ago. So many of us have stated that at this point.

      @Seed. Untrue.

      @Assalt. Despite the fact that it would get the same result for every generation past II... We also, as Aiden's clear to point out, don't scale anime to games.

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    • Might it be worth mentioning that on occassions such as Pokemon origins Thunder has come from the pokemon's body rather than the sky, meaning they shouldn't scale to the cloud formation?

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    • @Cal I guess I should be more specific to why I dislike sprite scaling. Wailord is similar in size to a Vileplume via sprite, yet, in actuality, is many times larger. Sprites aren't consistent in the slightest when compared to one another; even Pokemon in the same evolution line don't scale to each other in size. Lairon is supposed to be nearly 3x smaller than Aggron given Pokedex, but it is almost as large as it given the sprite.

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    • That's why we're using the low end by using the mascot (Pikachu), which technically would be lower, as we should be using the static height of Lucas, the trainer, who is 4 foot 8 and would give higher results.

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    • Wait, so...6-C Mega-Tyranitar? I'm ok with this

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    • Also, if the method is indeed wrong (the scaling and whatnot,and lets face it, it is) then the calc isnt usable whatsoever. Lowends and all. Because that can be a absurd highball still and be wrong.

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    • QuagsireTheLegend wrote:
      Wait, so...6-C Mega-Tyranitar?

      I'm ok with this

      Are you simply agreeing with this so you can get tier 6 Mega-Tyranitar?

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    • "That's why we're using the low end by using the mascot (Pikachu), which technically would be lower, as we should be using the static height of Lucas, the trainer, who is 4 foot 8 and would give higher results."

      You know I hate it when people uses arguments like this, it doesn't matter if you purposely use the low end because it still upgrades the character. The sprite are inconsistent and just because you're using the low end doesn't change a thing Cal. I'm of course disagreeing with this. I have nothing against Pokemon, I'm a supporter of it actually, but this is just not logical to me.

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    • Sorry in advance, because I'm about to snap. This argument is getting under my skin.

      You guys don't get it, do you? For starters, the inconsistent sprite size means nothing, as I'm not measuring sprites. These are confirmed sizes. Pikachu is the shortest Pokemon that can learn the move naturally at the time (Dedenne is shorter), at one foot four (Plusle and Minun are that tall as well). It's not a matter of inconsistency, or me just randomly choosing a Pokemon. I'm not scaling the heights of Pokemon. You want something that's not inconsistent? Again, use Lucas' height (or Ethan's/Gold's. Only ones with confirmed heights.) Doesn't change with the sprite. He's four foot eight. Use that. I edited the calc to account for that. Results are island level. Stop claiming sprite stuff as an argument against it. I accounted for that.

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    • It doesn't matter if you use the shortest pokemon, the sprites are inconsistent if you just switch the Pokemon/Trainers whatever. Your so called "accounting" for it, is using the lowend to make the feat looks like it's more acceptable when it's not doing anything to prove your point. How did you account for it? Because Cal just using the smallest pokemon doesn't account for crap. The sprite are inconsistent, the attack animations shouldn't be used, can you explain to me in detail? How does using the smallest pokemon in the game who can use the move fix any of that? And don't try to do the "I already explained it' cause you haven't. 

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    • Uhmm... Just to make sure.. Is there any Island level calcs we can use sans this example ? 

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    • I didn't already explain it, as you likely didn't see my edit. The sprites have nothing to do with this. Nothing in my calc mentions sprites. It mentions the official Pokedex sizes of Pokemon. I don't even know why you guys are bringing up sprites. Is it because a Palkia battle scene is in the blog? That's just because I wanted a picture.

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    • What blue said. It makes no difference.

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    • @Seed Technically there's still the Delibird calc if we're still able to use that...

      Edit: Nvm Delibird isnt a tier 7

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    • The thing is, not only do I still not like the sprite argument, the entire sky does NOT become covered in clouds. In Generation 6 Thunder does indeed call down a bolt of lightning, but it doesn't coat the entire sky. A local area forms clouds (this area being very small, considering the relatively small bolt takes up a notable portion of the clouds) before dropping the Thunder. The horizon is not covered whatsoever and the clouds do not appear far away in the slightest.

      As you have previously stated, "it (Thunder) has appeared this way since gen 3", stating that they (Gamefreak) just received the graphical capabilities to portray the move in such a way. Well in 2013 we got another graphical upgrade, and we can plainly see that the feat you have described and calced is not at all what actually happens.

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    • @Weekly that Delibird, assuming we're talking about the same Island level Delibird feat, was trained and only in the manga

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    • @AS. You CLEARLY see thunderclouds above the Pokemon. Even if it's lower, it doesn't change the calc'd feat from earlier generations. If Frieza's Supernova gets a new interpretation that's only 5-B, it doesn't override the currently canon High 5-A one.

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    • And again, I didn't bring up sprites in the original version of the blog, nor this thread before you guys did, so that argument is completely, and no offense, pulled out of the a**. The technical best compromise would be to average the height of all who can naturally learn it.

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    • Pokemon is honestly just getting a bit ridiculous at this point. 99% of Pokedex entries are Wall to Small Building level with the "pseudo-legendaries" (and Machamp) being Town to Mountain level. And yet now we're trying to scale everyone who is Tier 7 to Island level?

      I mean honestly my whole spiel in the blog was just me trying to avoid saying "this is absolutely ridiculous and anybody who's played or watched Pokemon can recognize this" but I guess we're at that point now.

      I want you to watch a random episode of the anime. No bias in mind. No "AoE Fallacy" garbage that was only invented because people wanted Star Wars to be gigaton level consistently. No arbitrary "Wiki policies" in your head. In fact, just to increase the data points, go ahead and watch 10 episodes. 20 even. Completely random. I want you to record every feat and anti-feat in those episodes and judge them with complete honesty.

      Did you get Island level? City level? Even just Multi-City Block level? No? Well no wonder. It's almost like in the 20 year long, 122 game spanning, 970+ episode long, 20 movie epic that is the Pokemon franchise "Island level" never has and likely never will be consistent with anything shown in the series.

      I want you to realize this as well, to give you a sense of scale. With 970 episodes of the anime currently released, if all 20 episodes I told you to watch featured an Island level feat this would still mean Pokemon is only consistently Island level 2% of the time.

      And don't give me that "AoE Fallacy" thing either because that's completely made up. It has no logical basis and exists pretty much solely because people don't want their favorite franchise to be any lower than their best outlier. Dragon Ball at least has "ki control" to explain it away. Pokemon has nothing. No excuse for allegedly Island level attacks to not instantly wipe out everything in the nearest 50 miles.

      This doesn't even make sense from the perspective of the setting or even the plot.

      Why in the world do you need "Cut" to get around a tree if your Pikachu can vaporize not only the tree but half the Route you're on as well? Instead of infiltrating the evil lairs at the end of the game why didn't you just bust through every wall straight to the villain without a drop of sweat?

      How the hell do cities exist if every fight in the nearby Gym threatens to annihilate the city block if an attack misses?

      I mean jeez. There are people skeptical enough of just the Pokedex entries for these problems alone. Tyranitar shatters mountains when it walks? Excuse me? Clearly not every Tyranitar or else I wouldn't be able to fight in the city. There wouldn't be a city to fight in! Just throwing out the Pokeball and having the Tyranitar land on the ground would shatter everything in the nearest mile.

      Island level Pokemon makes no sense from a consistency perspective or an in-universe perspective. There's just no possible way you can seriously argue this over the attack just being a fancy animation when the entire setting literally would not be able to exist if this was the case.

      And I know Pokemon humans are superhuman but you do know there's literally a case of someone taking a Hyper Beam from a Dragonite to the face right? Are they Island level? Because that's literally the only way this is going to make sense. Literally the only way you can justify humanity existing with Island level Pokemon not destroying them is if everyone is Island level so that just isn't significant at all.

      No offense, I have no idea how this was ever a thought that was seriously considered.

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    • @Cal Yes, but not across the horizon. You calced KILOMETERS of thunderclouds, when there are only what looks to be maybe a couple dozen meters.

      This is the Thunder charging.

      This is the Thunder landing.

      While the area is slightly larger (as one would expect from something that got closer) as the ground than in the sky, it is still not even close to being a large area. The ground strike point is 9m at absolute max even if you want to drop a Thunder on Electivire. The 9m area in the clouds is maybe 1/6th of the frame at best, making the cloud area 54m at best.

      Also, if you go frame by frame you can clearly see that the clouds look to be low hanging and are absolutely not covering the horizon line in any way. I have the opening shift so that is all for me tonight. Hopefully this will be resolved in the morning.

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    • I would appreciate if everybody try to stay polite towards each other. Thank you.

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    • Are you kidding me? This is, no offense, the literal worst argument I've ever seen on this wiki. AoE fallacy exists in fiction in general, whether you like it or not. Dragon Ball has ki control, sure. What about Naruto? Bleach? DC Comics? Marvel? Touhou? One Piece? JJBA? Fairy Tail? Sword Art Online? Digimon? Evangelion? Trigun? Yu Yu Hakusho? Sailor Moon? Steven Universe? Adventure Time? How often are they whatever tier they are? And you can take that up even further. Shin Megami Tensei? Sound of Drop? I/O? Cthulhu Mythos? Umineko? How often are they tier 2 or even 1? Guess Dragon Ball is the strongest fiction ever after all.

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    • @AS. Re-read my response, please.

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    • I liked Pokemon more when the profiles were deleted..

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    • Yeah, and I liked Dragon Ball more back when they topped out at Low 4-C. and the HST back when they got solo'd by Yusuke.

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    • Cal, chill, dude.

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    • Aizen too, everyone needs to chill

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    • How can I chill if everybody starts jumping on me at once, and Xcano is giving the middle finger to AoE Fallacy.

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    • @Cal Well you edited it. Also wouldn't the new generation games be more accurate in their portrayal? The graphics have gotten better and the artists know what they are doing. If older is better or more canonical (which makes no sense) then we should go with Gen 1, which show no clouds whatsoever. You keep pulling nonsense arguments out to justify a ridiculous calc that even you admitted was probably, if not totally invalid and unusable, an outlier. Why? Many people have disagreed with this for various reasons and many still are not satisfied with your answers or rationalizations. Why I don't agree with everything in LordXcano's rant, I do believe that accepting this would be nonsense.

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    • Should... We even be debating this anymore ? This is getting... Heated. About the Delibird though... Sad we can't use it. I'll try to find another High 7-A to 6-C calc tomorrow. I don't want you guys fighting so much...  You know... On occassions... Being an Empath sometimes is more of a curse than a gift. 

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    • That's what I meant. I didn't mean you skipped over things, and if I did imply that, I'm sorry. It's just as canon, is what I'm implying. More people agreed than disagreed, btw, including Azzy, who outranks everyone who gave an opinion so far.

      Some verses can go from tier 7 to tier 4, or tier 8 to tier 2, but going from tier 8 to tier 7 is an outlier. Okay.

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    • Does the Wiki only go with majority? I thought it was supermajority and the agreed upon consensus could be over-ruled with sufficient evidence.

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    • It's pseudo-democratic. Staff outrank non-staff, and higher staff members outrank lower staff members, but debunking is a thing.

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    • Unless I'm an idiot... This wikia tends to favour the majority in terms of upgrades and things.

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    • Actually, I never knew where the "Staff outrank non-staff and high staff members outrank lower ones came from", and disagree with the concept considering how fallacious it is.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That's what I meant. I didn't mean you skipped over things, and if I did

      imply that, I'm sorry. It's just as canon, is what I'm implying. More people agreed than disagreed, btw, including Azzy, who outranks everyone who gave an opinion so far.

      Some verses can go from tier 7 to tier 4, or tier 8 to tier 2, but going from tier 8 to tier 7 is an outlier. Okay.

      Nice to know that you think Azzy is above us, so our opinions are not considered. 

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    • SomebodyData
      SomebodyData removed this reply because:
      05:16, June 25, 2017
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    • @Cal

      That makes things a bit unfair by context then, yeah? But that's beside the point, this thread got derailed hard dude. It'll only get worse as time goes on if I've seen how these threads go when someone says no.

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    • "What about Naruto? Bleach? DC Comics? Marvel? Touhou? One Piece? JJBA? Fairy Tail? Sword Art Online? Digimon? Evangelion? Trigun? Yu Yu Hakusho? Sailor Moon? Steven Universe? Adventure Time? How often are they whatever tier they are? And you can take that up even further. Shin Megami Tensei? Sound of Drop? I/O? Cthulhu Mythos? Umineko?"

      I mean half my post was about how AoE isn't justified in 99% of cases so to actually beat my argument all you would've had to have done is shown evidence that Pokemon can control their AoE to an extreme extent.

      But you didn't. You just proved my point that in most cases the "AoE Fallacy" has no actual logical basis and is founded entirely on feelings. I couldn't care less about Steven Universe or Sailor Moon. So just saying "But they're high level too" isn't going to persuade me.

      Give me a logical point to support this. Don't appeal to policy or feelings about what a verse should be ranked as. I want a good in-universe explanation for why my Pikachu dodging a Hyperbeam doesn't result in the destruction of the city.

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    • Never said your argument isn't considered, and I'm not going to apologize for recognizing one of the few people who can block anyone without scrutiny.

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    • For the latter of our statement, what do you mean?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That's what I meant. I didn't mean you skipped over things, and if I did

      imply that, I'm sorry. It's just as canon, is what I'm implying. More people agreed than disagreed, btw, including Azzy, who outranks everyone who gave an opinion so far.

      Some verses can go from tier 7 to tier 4, or tier 8 to tier 2, but going from tier 8 to tier 7 is an outlier. Okay.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Fallacy#5._Appeal_to_popularity

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    • Being able block someone doesn't mean shit Cal. Wow congrats you were promoted to admin and know how to press a key on the computer to ban? Congrats for having the ability of a 2nd Grader. Doesn't mean anything in a debate.

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    • The real cal howard
      The real cal howard removed this reply because:
      05:25, June 25, 2017
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    • I'm not even talking about myself, @Blue. I think I'm inferior to normal members.

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    • EDIT: Removed because initial statement was removed

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    • Touhou does it really well with island level humans. And I'm not threatening you. I would never do that, and just repeating things Ant has told to people like Matt.

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    • Regardless, I removed that statement. I actually feel bad about it.

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    • EDIT: Removed because initial statement was removed

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    • The real cal howard
      The real cal howard removed this reply because:
      Removed because of the above reason
      05:30, June 25, 2017
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    • I have no real opinion on this but jeez, you guys need to tone down your hostility. 

      @Blue You're not even arguing the revision anymore, instead you're acting condescending towards others, making the thread more hostile then it should be. That is not okay. At worst it's spam.

      Same goes for a lot of people in the thread.

      That said, Staff members opinions do not, or at least should not, outrank users. Just because we got promoted obviously doesn't mean we're more intelligent or well versed than normal users. We should treat each other as equals.

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    • Can everyone relax? It's extremely disappointing that so many members, many of them staff or former staff, are getting this worked up and hostile over a simple revision thread. Of all things to get pissed off over on the internet, a discussion about the movement of clouds in a fucking Pokemon game? It's unbelievable.

      Cal, Ant's a bureaucrat. It is well within his jurisdiction as one of the highest ranked staff members to warn other users like that. Here, in this disaster of a thread, it only makes things worse.

      If another user gets hostile, tell them off, but don't get hostile in turn. You're only going to make things worse, and all these snide remarks, blatant insults, and apparent threats aren't helping.

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    • Based Prom strikes with knowledge.

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    • I started this, and I apologize. This is my fault entirely, as I snapped first. I don't know if it's something that happened with my personal life, or that all my internal rage let out, or something (because this happens like, every six months), but I still apologize.

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    • @Dark I could of worded it differently, but I still stand with my post overall.

      Not trying to make like my message wasn't rude, but there were messages that were starter that came before mine.

      Nonetheless I was rude, however I will still keep the post up due to it still holding my opinion on ranks > logic.

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    • I'd like to especially apologize to Blue, Xcano, and LAS.

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    • And now I'm pretty sure this'll never get resolved due to my initial hostility...

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    • Everyone, stop acting like angry children. Both sides.

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    • Promestein wrote: Can everyone relax? It's extremely disappointing that so many members, many of them staff or former staff, are getting this worked up and hostile over a simple revision thread. Of all things to get pissed off over on the internet, a discussion about the movement of clouds in a fucking Pokemon game? It's unbelievable.

      Cal, Ant's a bureaucrat. It is well within his jurisdiction as one of the highest ranked staff members to warn other users like that. Here, in this disaster of a thread, it only makes things worse.

      If another user gets hostile, tell them off, but don't get hostile in turn. You're only going to make things worse, and all these snide remarks, blatant insults, and apparent threats aren't helping.

      I strongly agree with Promestein. I also get very upset about different issues, but those are real world existential threats, not power-scaling issues that are just supposed to be about having fun and relaxing.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: I'd like to especially apologize to Blue, Xcano, and LAS.

      Thank you. I would appreciate if everybody else who have been rude would apologise in turn.

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    • I already apologized via chat pm.

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    • I have some very big problems with some of the arguments around this thread, and I would like to debunk them in my next posts.

      Firstly:

      "I agree with Xcanos post in the blog (That is to say, I disagree with the upgrade) Attack animations tend to be dodgy, especially in these sorts of games. Galaxy level Fate ccc Gilgamesh comes to mind."

      Not at all. Attack Animations should be taken at face-value unless proven otherwise. Fate ccc Gilgamesh is a terrible example because we know from the official description that it is not a Galaxy level feat, so why bring it up.

      Furthermore, there are plenty of games where attack animations are confirmed to be literal, such as Final Fantasy where all Summons fight by taking the opponent to pocket dimensions where they do the attack, and that is why there's no environmental destruction.

      Secondly:

      "Or you actually believe the creators take info consideration the power of the cloud forming? "

      This is completely irrelevant. We never take the author into consideration 90% of the time. Megaman writers thinks he is Wall level, but that doesn't mean we will ignore all the various Tier 6, 5, 4 and 3 feat that the franchise has. Writers not knowing how strong something is doesn't mean it is not that strong.

      Or how about Bleach, in which Kubo absolutely thinks that his characters are like, only supersonic and is always drawing sonic booms when a character is flying to showcase their speed.

      Thirdly:

      "Yeah, but calcing the f***ing Energy of the cloud formation is just.... Well, this is honestly ridiculous. Don't count with my agreement on this one."

      I'm sorry, not to be rude, but this argument is simply invalid. It is an argument from incredulity, through and through. You don't accept the result being as high as it is, so you are calling the calculation itself ridiculous.

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    • Read the rest of the thread.

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    • Thebluedash wrote: I already apologized via chat pm.

      Okay. Thanks.

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    • I am starting to get worried about the recurrent fighting amongst the staff. Kavpeny has also mentioned to me that he is concerned about the wiki eventually imploding due to this.

      Regardless, since the majority seem to have accepted these changes, I suppose that they can probably be applied, so we can close this thread and avoid more fighting, but I agree that Pokemon's composite nature makes the franchise extremely hard to properly scale.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Regardless, since the majority seem to have accepted these changes, I suppose that they can probably be applied

      Im sorry but you cannot be serious. The amount of people that put fourth actual arguments and points in this thread easily outweighs the supposed people who agreed and havent even replied to, or perhaps even seen this thread.

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    • I would appreciate if everybody make a consistent effort to at least tolerate and be polite to each other. Nobody is forcing you to personally like everybody, but we have to try to keep some order, harmony, and good mood amongst the staff for the sake of the wiki's continued survival.

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    • I promise to. I just went too far. I'll do my best to make sure this never happens again.

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    • @LordAizenSama I was referring to the list of people who agreed in the first post, but okay, never mind then.

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    • Anyway, my point about that everybody have to make an effort to maintain the stability and future survival of this community still stands.

      I am also very stressed out about western civilisation gradually collapsing, with my own country, Sweden, leading the charge, but we cannot take that out on other people in a harmless entertainment wiki.

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    • @Ant

      Just giving my thoughts here, but I think you should absolutely mind, because plenty of those people have actual, acceptable arguments, which were had both on the Blog and on this thread.

      Of course people can disagree with them and give their own reasons, and some of the people on the other sides have arguments that are worth discussing and analyzing.

      Cal Howard got angry both over his own temper and people baiting him, but many of his arguments are acceptable and logical. Meanwhile many of the arguments on the other side are not very legitimate, as I'm slowly demonstrating on my post above.

      It is because of arguments like this where disparate sides take very strong opinions and don't agree with each other that we need to apply democracy in these cases, or else nothing would ever be resolved because as long as there is one person who is determined and argumentative enough, no revision would ever go through.

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    • The argument that we sometimes have to apply democracy to avoid going around in circles is a good point.

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    • Also, addressing the issue of the feat being an outlier:

      Pikachu is currently ranked for a feat with a wield of 2.8347871e16 joules.

      Howard's calc wields 1.59190798e19 joules, diving the results wields a gap of 561.561741 times. This feat is x500 times stronger than the later. That is enough of a big enough gap between results to be considered an outlier, specially at Tier 7 - 6. If the result was Continent level, then yeah, obviously an outlier. But this is only one tier higher than what the Pokemon are currently ranked as.

      If anything, both calcs are mutually embracing, as they show that these levels of feats for non-Legendary Pokémon are reccuring.

      Hell, looking over at Narutoforums and I find a Town level calc for weak Team Rocket Pokémon.

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    • tt seems Matthew has a good point. And I'm sorry if I didn't do much to help out.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      More people agreed than disagreed, btw, including Azzy, who outranks everyone who gave an opinion so far.

      I just want to make something very clear, unrelated to the overall topic of this thread. I feel the need to say this.

      I never want to be used in an argument like this. Ever.

      Something that I take such pride in is that we are a community that accepts change. We accept evidence and prefer to fix things when they are wrong than to let them fester simply because they fit our personal tastes. People can disagree, and people can have friendly debates, and in such cases people can present their arguments to each other so that we can try to come to the best conclusion.

      I am quite happy for high tiers on verses I like, just as most people are, but while I am happy that verses such as the Cthulhu Mythos or Warhammer 40,000 are ranked well, I am happy primarily because these are legitimate tiers that can be backed up with evidence and actual feats/statements, which in many cases I have taken the liberty of compiling. Saying "This verse I like is stupidly powerful just 'cuz and you can't argue with it" is pointless, hence why I have no desire for something like that to be done.

      I do not want my name, Ant's name, DarkLK's name, or anyone's name to be used as a cudgel to beat people with in an argument. Nor should absolutely everything I say in regards to how something is tiered become law simply because I say it. That is insulting, and is not the kind of environment I want, here.

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    • I agree with Azathoth. I want us to maintain our friendly atmosphere in this wiki, and all staff members, and former staff members, who are counteracting our efforts in this regard need to shape up immediately.

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    • I obviously agree as well.

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    • Forgive me then Azathoth & Antvasima. I have also done this before. 

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    • While i'm still neutral about the scaling, i'd like to address a few things.

      Lightning bolts are building level, correct? So the fact that my intention is to hit with the lightning is inconsistent with the established AP regardless if the Pokemon is MCB, Large Mountain or Multi-Continent.

      What the author think is irrelevant if it contradicts feats. The author can make characters who obliterate planets and have them killed by bullets. It can state that a large planetary feat is actually multi-continent and we would simply ignore what he/she said.

      The "AoE Fallacy" is the whole premise of scaling and AP. Go on a random profile which has "traded blows with X" as a justification for the stats. If you check the actual fight, in 90% of the cases you won't see the level of destruction that the character can supposedly cause.

      Also, about the example with "Cut", my Arceus needs Cut to destroy a tree. It's game mechanics.

      And yes, there are cases of people tanking Hyper Beams. There are also cases of Outerversal Superman, Wall level Cloud Strife, Multi-Universal Beyonders and so on. It's an outlier.

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    • Kaltias wrote:

      The "AoE Fallacy" is the whole premise of scaling and AP. Go on a random profile which has "traded blows with X" as a justification for the profile. If you check the actual fight, in 90% of the cases you won't see the level of destruction that the character can actually cause.

      I strongly agree with this.

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    • I agree with Kal on this point  as well. It is our main point of scaling here. Cal was at least accurate about this part of his counterclaims.

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    • In Shin Megami Tensei, we have Universal+ - Multiversal+ characters fighting in Tokyo, and the city isn't destroyed.

      AoE isn't simply an excuse to wank series, it is something that evidently exists. Superheroes for instance don't destroy the cities they are supposed to protect even when they have Planetary strength or higher. In real life energy conservation would mean that a City level character would destroy cities with every blow, but in fiction the laws of physics are constantly being broken in small or significant ways, and writers don't follows with the notions of energy conservation for practical reasons.

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    • I agree with Matthew.

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    • To answer a question previous asked, what Matthew said really is the only logical way they could've survived. Ant.. Are you gonna wait for more people or an attempted counterargument ?

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    • The math looks right. 

      And if it's being used, applied and accepted for other series, I see no reason why it shouldn't apply to Pokemon. Consistency is important and there shouldn't be double standards. Either use it for all series or for none. If there is indeed an issue with the method and it is "wrong", make a thread about it which would also stop future instances of such usage (assuming everyone in the thread concludes it is wrong).

      EDIT: There seems to be a thread for it now, apparently it will be case-by-case basis.

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    • I apologize to Azzy as well, as I did besmirch his name. Sorry for thinking there's a hierarchy, and that did trigger a few members.

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    • Well anywho, with that settled...What are we going to do? Do we accept this or not?

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    • I personally feel it should.  Especially with Matthew's claim, i feel that it could be accepted. But like i mentioend before, to whom would it scale to ? 

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    • If anything it would scale to Fully evolved pokemon. Not the likes of Butterfree, but Pokemon like Kommo-o, Tyranitar, Haxorus, etc.

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    • By the way, I found several accepted calcs on the OBD that put normal Pokémon at Tier 7, so the claim that this is an outlier gets less legit by the minute.

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    • .....What degree of tier 7 Matthew ?

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    • Things ranging from Town level to Mountain level.

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    • @Matt

      I know there's 7-C Ampharos, High 7-C Gigalith and 7-B Tyranitar, but what are you referring to?

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    • Even fodder like Corsola and Trapinch has Small Town+ feats (which I have no earthly idea where removed). 

      @Ever

      Town level Machamp, Town level (at least) Dragonair, City level Volcorona and City level Gyarados spring to mind. 

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    • Yeah, it's not as much an outlier as I feared originally, and I started to feel confident about it.

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    • Also, we consider the move Eruption as (possibly) City level.

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    • Just saying, for the move Earthquake to be able to damage something it would have to be at least a magnitude 6, and then there's the issue of Magnitude itself which can go up to magnitude 10...just throwing that out there

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    • Gyarados, Abomasnow, and a few others should have Tier 7 feats somewhere if I remember I correctly.

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    • Octillery has a tier 7 feat as well

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    • And Delibird has a 6-C feat from the manga, but we should don't should not mix continuities, except if the pokedex states a certain feat.

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    • ^ Yeah, but that still goes to show that these levels of feats aren't oddities throughout the franchise and that the claim that "Most Pokémon are only written as Wall level" is complely false.

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    • I get the Pokemon scaling. What about... The trainers. Which ones ( in general ) would scale to this ?

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    • The "if they were City level, then the cities would be destroyed if they fight" argument can also be used to downgrade the vast majority of the characters on this wiki and it would be very hypocritical of us to accept that logic here. Not every 7-B character has to be constantly portrayed as a nuclear warhead that treats buildings like legos.

      EDIT: Going by what I've said earlier, while the door for "author's intent" swings both ways, Tyrannitar's 7-A statement isn't too outlandish compared to the 7-C to 7-B feats displayed by some of the stronger, fully-evolved Pokemon.

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    • About Tyranitar... To be honest is there anything that contradicts this statement in the games ? For one , It is a Psuedo-Legendary, so it's one of the most powerful normal pokemon you can encounter. You only encounter an Psuedo-Legendary close to the end of your journey, so at least that's consistent. 

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    • I edited my post a few times after realizing that Tyranitar's 7-A statement isn't too outlandish compared to the other Tier 7 feats displayed by the series.

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    • Apparently the argument is that anime Tyranitar don't do that, but then again the argument is that we don't scale across multiple continuities of pokemon.

      Tyranitar's feat wouldn't at all be inconsistent or impossible, though, given that he himself has a 7-B feat.

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    • @Matt and Seed

      I'm aware of that, and I thought about it right when I finished writing my comment, so I revised it to add this:

      Going by what I've said earlier, while the door for "author's intent" swings both ways, Tyrannitar's 7-A statement isn't too outlandish compared to the 7-C to 7-B feats displayed by some of the stronger, fully-evolved Pokemon.

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    • Now that I think about it, I recall a statement in Pokemon Mystery Dungeon: Red and Blue about Charizard also being able to melt mountains with Flamethrower. I'll get on that.

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    • I vaguely remember that was a thing....

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    • If anyone can find it and calc it, it'd be swell. It's completely reasonable with the other feats.

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    • Instantly melt them or with time ? To me ( And I'm not the best at tiering, so feel free to correct me )  that seems 7-B if it was with time, 7-A if instantaneous.

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    • Thebluedash wrote:

      QuagsireTheLegend wrote:
      Wait, so...6-C Mega-Tyranitar?

      I'm ok with this

      Are you simply agreeing with this so you can get tier 6 Mega-Tyranitar?


      Oh, sorry, i am a little late to this That "I'm ok with this" i intended more as a joke than anything, i was just trying to ask wether or not this upgrade would actually upgrade things like Tyranitar-Mega to 6-C

      Should of phrased better, sorry

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    • It would be At least 6-C IMO . 

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    • Just an FYI, while the PMD statement doesn't contradict anything and seems to fit in fine among the other Tier 7 feats, I'm pretty sure that was said by a Lombre/Bellsprout, I forget which, fanboying about the Charizard in team ACT, so they might not be the most reliable source of information.

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      Instantly melt them or with time ? To me ( And I'm not the best at tiering, so feel free to correct me )  that seems 7-B if it was with time, 7-A if instantaneous.

      I actually recall that the timeframe was not specified. 

      I'll make the calc right now.

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    • Well, the timeframe should logically be very be small. It's completely laughable to imagine Charizard with his mouth opened for 10 minutes straight firing his flamethrower.

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    • The timeframe should be the same as the one for the current calc with ice, if not a minute more.

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    • Also, Pokemon Stadium's Pokedex says Charizard can melt glaciers that weigh 10,000 tons. I got 723 Tons of TNT for that.

      Still trying to figure out a way to get the radius of the mountain, assuming it's a cone.

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    • So, since there is this revision going on, should any match regarding Tier 7 Pokémon be postponed?

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    • Well, yes and no. It can still go on, but it won't be added. Just like how there's some 7-B Digimon that are becoming High 7-A as well, and they don't have opposition, but for the matches involving them, we debate just for the sake of it. Same with the Narutoverse. They have an inevitable revision coming, and we're currently using them.

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    • was this accepted?

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    • I don't know. However, it seems as though this is accepted....I guess. I'll wait a little more.

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    • Same. I really hope this doesn't die out, but even more so, I hope that water can be put under the bridge.

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    • Im okay with this, by the way.

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    • Updated the agreement list.

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    • After reading the thread, I would like to say that I support the upgrades.

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    • http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Charizard_melts_stuff

      I got High 7-A for the low end, High 6-C for the high end, and 8-A for the glacier.

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    • Would this make Magnitude being a legitimate earthquate more consistent?

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    • I don't know.

      But RadicalMrR suggested that I just use the volume of Mt. Fuji instead of calcing up my own hypothetical value for a mountain, which downgraded the result to 7-A+ instead of High 7-A+. Not that big of a difference really (about 3.1 Gigatons), so it should still support the High 7-A+ upgrade in consistency.

      I'm not sure about Magnitude, though. High 6-B Diglett probably isn't going to be a thing again any time soon.

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    • I don't know if its worth anything, but i also do agree with this, i feel like the scaling is pretty justified

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    • @AN It would only be 6-C actually, High 6-B would only be if it were a natural earthquake, and even then it would likely only be for Dugtrio

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Darkanine/Earthquake_Power_Chart

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    • I'm agree with this.

      Nice work, guys :)

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    • Is AN okay with this now? I want to update the OP. And is Weekly fine with this? Don't want to assume.

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    • Yeah im fine with it, i was just wondering if we could consider Magnitude 10 legit or not seein as its not too far off from the proposed upgrades

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    • I'm fine with the upgrades. The amount of Tier 7 feats we have at this point is overwhelming.

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    • I'm fine with it. More than enough proof about this not being an outlier has been given

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    • So is that a no to Magnitude or...?

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    • How much are magnitude 10 earthquakes?

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    • High 6-B natural Magnitude 10 earthquakes

      6-C pokemon-based move.

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    • I guess 6-C Magnitude is reasonable, as long as its only via Magnitude.

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    • I also agree considering in the pokedex Pikachus are noted to being capable of making entire thunderstorms when working together.

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    • I think the High 7-A rating should be exclusive to Thunder users and Pseudo-legendaries. I'm not comfortable with putting EVERY Tier 7 Pokemon at High 7-A.

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    • I feel like obviously more powerful Pokemon than normal should also get scaled. Pokemon like Haxorus, Flygon, etc.

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    • Do all the trainers from Battle Tree scale to this ? I mean, even the most basic members are Champion level.

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      Do all the trainers from Battle Tree scale to this ? I mean, even the most basic members are Champion level.

      Just the notable characters.

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    • I meant "IF" we could make profiles for all the characters in the Battle Tree... Would they "all" scale ? Because the ones above the notable characters are stronger than them according to the Battle Tree.

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    • Why would we make files for irrelevant characters? It's best to keep it with Pokemon and Notable Trainers.

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    • I was asking if they scaled to the notable characters and their feats ( each of them would scale to this 6-C in one way or another ) due to canonically being above them in the Battle Tree ... Depending on their rank. I wasn't saying we should make profiles, just asking if all the members of the Battle Tree scaled ?

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    • Likely so yes.

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    • Thought so. Thanks for confirmation. On Fc/Oc, I was going to make a "Multiversal/Omniversal" version of the Battle Tree, and wanted to be sure. Thanks.

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    • Quoting Cal's Opening Post: Against it: Xcano, Aiden, LAS, Blue, Assaltwaffle, and Imaginym (I think)

      Since I'm mentioned, presumably because I posted in the calc's blog page, I suppose I should try to make my stance here clear, for all that that matters. Hopefully I'm not too late.

      The calc's basis is that of an animation involving stormcloud creation. I don't see much wrong with using animations. Especially given this recent thread: http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/Thread:786524


      My concern with this is why we'd only apply it to the Tier 7 Pokemon & above. I understand that's where the results of the calc place it at a minimum but trained Pokemon aside....

      Well, barring special cases like Groudon who has it via other means (& a higher tier anyway, but not the point of Groudon as an example here.) only a trained Pokemon would know this if it didn't learn it via level up.

      Trained Pokemon are already known to be stronger than wild Pokemon.


      It just seems odd to exclude some of the Pokemon who learn this naturally, in the wild/via level up from the upgrade. The Pokemon that learn it via level-up.

      Here's a blog Cal made about Pokemon scaling for reference.

      The Pokemon that aren't currently Tier 7 that learn it via level-up:

      Pikachu (Games). Aside from the minor oddity of using a game animation calc to upgrade Ash's Pikachu in the anime, I see little issue with this. There are instances of cloud creation for Thunder's use in the anime anyway. Even not for Pikachu, sometimes.

      Jolteon, Electabuzz. Fully evolved Electric-types (At least, Electabuzz for 3 generations.) who according to Cal's Blogs are MCBL+, so I suppose, ineligible, despite being very close to being Tier 7 otherwise. Flaaffy is also MCBL+ but Not Fully Evolved & Electabuzz scales to Electivire & Elekid.

      MareepElectrike: First stage Pokemon with little to scale to nor feats, & thus, Pokemon whom I doubt there's issues with not giving Thunder scaling to.

      Elekid: Probably shouldn't scale to Thunder use. Baby Pokemon aside, it scales to Togedemaru, which [Togedemaru] along with other "Pikaclones" (Similar design themes, romanized Japanese name in English, Electric rodents, but otherwise different species.), is given Pikachu's tier for being a Pikaclone, despite all Pikaclones except Pikachu being Pokemon that don't evolve to or from anything.

      Heliolisk: MCBL+ by the scaling in Cal's blog but not much else & Wall Level to Building Level by calcs for its feats, lol. It & by extension, Helioptile couldn't get the scaling from this either.

      Plusle, Minun, Dedenne: The so-called Pikaclones that learn this move, unlike Pachirisu & Emolga. Although, unlike Pikachu, they're also Pokemon that don't evolve & thus don't have any pre-evolutions they're stronger than, nor evolutions they're weaker than. With that in mind, I find it a little questionable that even wild instances of this Pokemon can learn & wonder if they should be able to get the upgrade.


      Also, IMHO, applying it to Pokemon shown using it seems fine, but (for the most part) not those who aren't show using it & only learn it via means other than level-up, just to make my opinion clear.

      Also, one Pokemon I'd like to make mention of is Clair's Dragonair. This Gym Leader-trained Pokemon actually created thunderclouds at the least, & may have used Thunder also.

      I haven't checked the episode yet, but: 

      Trying a different approach, Clair orders Dragonair to summon thunder clouds while Charizard keeps Dragonite busy.

      It was a Very Well Trained Dragonair, I'll admit, but it's also worth mentioning that, besides Dragonair learning the move by TM (& sadly, only TM.) it has numerous Pokedex entries mentioning it being able to control weather, & even a wild one stopped a storm that produced at least one lightning bolt if my memory stopped.

      I'd question if this wouldn't also be applicable to Dragonair, & by extension, Dragonite.

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    • Guys, I disagree with Tyranitar being 7-A. 

      Radical's calc assumes that the Pokedex is referring to multiple mountains at once, when "destroying mountains" is more likely to be more of a general thing.

      For example, when I say "I like to eat apples", I mean that I generally like apples, not multiple of them at once. 

      Everlasting and DontTalk both brought up points about this and they were seemingly disregarded.

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:RadicalMrR/Tyranitar_Mountain_Feat

      If Tyranitar is to stay at 7-A, then it should be under the reasoning that it is immensely superior to Pupitar, who could destroy mountains by thrashing about, not under the assumption that Tyranitar can destroy multiple mountains at once.

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    • I mean aren't they about to get upgraded to High 7-A anyway?

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    • @AN... We can just use that reasoning anyways... Then there's no reason to downgrade. 

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    • @Dragon and Seed

      I guess so.

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    • @AN: Frankly, I'm not so certain we should assume Tyranitar is destroying singular mountains.

      Diamond If it rampages, it knocks down mountains and buries rivers. Maps must be redrawn afterward.
      Pearl
      Platinum

      Doesn't this suggest that one of Tyranitar's rampages will knock down multiple mountains? I'd assume that "If it rampages," suggests that what follows is the case should Tyranitar "go on at a rampage" at all, rather than "It will knock down one mountain per rampage".

      Especially when it can already make "Great" mountains crumble by merely WALKING.


      And on the topic of the terminology, I think "Great" Mountains almost certainly refers to larger mountains; If you ask me, saying "Great" is part of a subjective interpretation about how people favor mountains & which they'd describe as great varies from person to person is silly, because the word is being used in a Pokedex entry, which is generally encyclopedic, or meant to be at least. Assuming that "Great" is being used in the sense of "Very good" or "Important" seems silly to me. I mean, it seems implausible that the authors of that entry meant to convey:

      "Tyranitar destroys peoples favorite mountains." or "Tyranitar destroys the most culturally significant mountains." 

      Maybe it's fallacious of me to argue with that as the basis, but it almost certainly seems more likely that in an entry meant to be encyclopedic(-like), "Great" would mean what several dictionaries put as its first definition:

      Big.

      (Or arguably, "impressive" or "grand".)

      Not to mention little other than where the author of that entry is from suggests that they might be biased as to which mountains are great, & that's assuming they are biased about which mountains are great.

      And there almost certainly is information on the size & composition of ( www.fujisan-net.gr.jp/english/4_04.htm ) mountains, so it's not like we can't know that information, nor be able to make educated guesses as to how big a typical mountain is. And there are certainly locations widely considered mountains, too.


      But, that's just my opinion on that matter. Sorry to anyone bothered by me.

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    • Tyranitar walks and that creates earthquakes. How does an earthquake single out one mountain in specific while leaving every other surrounding land mass un touched?

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    • Tyraniyar by walking creates earthquakes with him as the epicenter and any mountain in the vicinity would crumble. What else can it be?

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    • By the time he got to the epicenter wouldnt it have all ready been destroyed?

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    • Tyranitar himself is the one provoking the quakes so... he himself is the epicenter (if you think about it, this means that the energy produced by him is more than the one needed to destroy the mountains).

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    • If maps have to be redrawn after Tyranitar rampages, and Tyranitar is also stated to destroy GREAT mountains just by walking, then perhaps the assumption that Tyranitar destroys multiple mountains at once isn't so dumbfounded after all. 

      Then there's the Pupitar statement of destroying a SINGLE mountain by thrashing about. It's interesting to note that Pupitar's Pokedex entry uses, specifically, "a mountain", while Tyranitar's uses "mountains".

      Either way, Mountain level Tyranitar has very strong support behind it.

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    • I think that both feats are simply straightforward 7-A.

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    • Radical calc'd the feat at 7-B and brought it up to 7-A by doubling the result, under the assumption that multiple mountains were destroyed.

      Either way, the consistency is very strong. At this point I'm in full support of a High 7-A upgrade in some form, just not sure who scales to it.

      So just a recap...

      -High 7-A+ fully-evolved Pokemon (with some exceptions)?

      -6-C Pseudo Legendaries and Mega evolutions? 6-C+ Mega-evolved Pseudo-legendaries?

      -At least 6-C+ to High 6-C Legendaries (something like that)?

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    • Pretty sure some Legendaries have 6-A feats or I could be wrong.

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    • Well the thing is, Legends are varied in AP. 

      Like Zekrom, Reshiram and Kyurem have 6-A feats

      Yveltal, Xerneas and Zygarde are High 6-A.

      Lugia and Ho-oh are 6-B I believe

      Dialga, Palkia and Giratina are obviously Tier 2.

      Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza have 5-C feats

      Solgaleo, Lunala and Necrozma have 0 feats....So we scale them to our General Legendary Tier.

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    • By the way, general legendary tier, which are the ones with less feats, are just vastly above the strongest non-legendary. It used to be Moltres' latent energy, but not anymore.

      If you ask me, the birds should just be Low 6-B now, and all the other featless legendaries should scale to that

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    • @ArbitraryNumbers:

      Not sure all fully evolved Pokemon are Tier 7, but whatever.

      Also, I'm not sure we scale Pseudo-Legendaries to one another, as their common groups are based on Levels of evolution, Catch Rate, & BST, which are mostly game mechanics. Heck, currently, Dragonite, Hydreigon & Goodra are the current pseudos who aren't 7-A.

      Kommo-o, too, if you don't count it its Totem Pokemon key, since Totem Pokemon are empowered by energy supposedly from Ultra Wormholes; IE, not a common factor for most individuals in the species.

      The other pseudos (Tyranitar, Metagross, Garchomp) have feats or scaling to other Pokemon backing up their 7-A tiers, & also because they're Pokemon capable of Mega Evolving. Not because pseudos, IIRC.


      If 2 Mountains gets Tyranitar (High) 7-A, then I wouldn't be opposed to High 7-A Tyranitar & Possibly or Low 6-C Mega Tyranitar.

      MAYBE just plain 6-C for Mega Tyranitar? IMHO, the numbers matter a bit.

      7-A is 100 Megatons to 1 Gigaton (1000 Megatons.) So even if Tyranitar was at Peak 7-A (1 Gigaton) & I'm not sure current calcs get it near 1,000 Megatons/1 Gigaton, it'd need to be 4.3 times as strong as Tyranitar or more to reach even Low 6-C. I question if Mega Tyranitar does give a big enough power boost, but whatever.


      I still find scaling Mega Pokemon to one another questionable, though. Least of all because a Mega Pokemon has to be somewhat trained, & thus, stronger than a natural individual of the species even before Mega Evolving. And how strong the species are "in base" & other differences & not necessarily all species getting exactly enough Mega Evolution Energy to make them all the same strength seems... improbable?


      Also, I'm still wondering about the Pokemon who naturally learn Thunder THAT aren't Tier 7. & also Clair's Dragonair, I guess. But maybe not the ideal time.

      (Also, what happened to Moltres's Latent Energy?)

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    • I'm all for Cal's Low 6-B legendary suggestion as well. Most legendaries are at the very least comparable to them.

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    • Looking over on Narutoforums I see Country and Continent level feats for some Pokémon, but given that I am not the most knowledgeble on the verse I dunno if they are above the Legendaries or below

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    • Which Pokemon yield these feats?

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    • A lot of Tier 6 feats are made by well trained Pokemon who are stronger than normal. However, no matter what the Legendaries should be mostly superior. Although a regular Diglett and Dugtrio has a High 6-C I believe...I think anyway.

      Although we also have to slightly discuss characters who have caught Legendary Pokemon.....Canonically (So no Low 2-C Lucas or Dawn)

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    • @Dragon Are you thinking of Magnitude? :P

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    • Yeah, that one. 

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    • - Lake of Rage creation: 11.09 - 34.44 gigatons (Pokemon)

      - Delibird freezes Lake of Rage: 13.433 gigatons (Pokemon)

      - Lugia's thunderbolts: 20.61 gigatons (Pokemon)

      - Rayquaza nukes an asteroid: 23.7 gigatons (Pokemon)

      - 91.2 teratons (Pokemon)

      - Kyogre/Groudon clash: 1.48 - 147.885 teratons (each) (Pokemon)

      - Jirachi creates fake Kyogre: 7.18 teratons (Pokemon)

      - Mega Rayquaza destroys meteor: 12.67 teratons (Pokemon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire)

      - Kyogre and Groudon levitate a landmass: 634.1 teratons (Pokemon)

      - Primal Kyogre's Sheer Cold: 2.38 petatons (Pokemon)

      ^ All the Tier 6 feats that were calculated and accepted by the OBD.

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    • @Matt Lake of Rage creation? Isnt that a feat for a bunch of wild Gyarados?

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    • To be fair, most of those Pokemon are Legendaries, and the Delibird feat was from a trained one.

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    • Yes, it is, though for an entire population. The low-end is 7.41 kilotons for each individual Gyrados.

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    • The third evolutions pseudos like Metagross (45) or Dragonite (55) are normally used towards the end of the game (By the last Elite 4 member and the champions/final bosses) and not at the mid-game like the other normal third evolutions like Toucannon (28) or Staraptor (34) by a normal trainer/rival, so i think they are not comparable at the moment of third evolution.

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    • Gyarados is also said to be able to "totally annihilate major world cities", which is a solid 7-B feat.

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    • Again, Low 6-B birds from the anime doesn't seem to matter as there seem to be several other Tier 6 legendaries feats.

      Which is cool, since non-legendary seems to peak at High 7-A.

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    • Don't in Pokemon X/Y, the main villains have a superweapon that literally has a Legendary Pokemon as its power source, and can wipe out the world after absorbing 99% of said Pokemon's power?

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    • The weapon was calculated at High 6-A I believe, I never played X/Y so I can't confirm the planet busting quote.

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    • Well, I think it's just that the calculated value is enough to wipe out the surface.

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    • ... And another legendary can alter all of the world's weather by flapping his tail.

      Tell me again, why is 6-A / High 6-A legendaries thought by some as too much? They have those feats all the time.

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    • I think people just don't want to scale legendaries like. I don't mind all Legends being comparable. But they prefer to rate them by their own feats. Or if they lack feats they just scale them to the General Legendary tier.

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    • Which is Low 6-B, right?

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    • Well now it will be. It was At least High 7-A.

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    • So it seems like I f**ked up pretty bad on the Tyranitar calc.

      The updated version has some interesting results.

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:RadicalMrR/Tyranitar_Mountain_Feat

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    • 7-A is still consistent. Destroying a big mountain is destroying a mountain.

      The thing is, though... We've now got three calcs here with High 6-C results that were disregarded. Three of them.

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    • That is...scary . It is scary how consistent that looks.

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    • Plus 6-C Magnitude

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    • That's 4... tier 6 feats from Normal pokemon...

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    • Irrelavent question, but: has anyone ever thought of making some program/automatic calculator that you can simply input numbers and get the results quickly for this wikia?

      (Said program will obviously be only for things like explosions, lightning and other common fictional attacks)

      Even better, put said calculator on the wikia or another official site to be publicly used.

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    • I think that our current system of several instruction pages, along with the calc group staff overviewing the process in the blog posts, works pretty well as it is.

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    • Bump because the trainers profiles have the stats of the old revision, so they should be fixed since it can cause several confusions.

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    • I agree.

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    • I also think we should rename all of our current profiles like Pidgeot to that of their initial pre-evolutions. Dodrio's profile should be renamed to Doduo, Pidgeot to Pidgey, etc.

      It just looks kinda messy right now. I prefer all profiles containing entire evolution families to be renamed to that of the first member of their respective families, just so things don't look wonky.

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    • Eh...I'm not really feeling that. Most people don't care at all about the first or even second forms, unless it's Pikachu or Jigglypuff. Maybe Magikarp and Slowpoke.

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    • @AB I think it should be the other way around. Most people know the Pokemon by their final evolution since its the one theyll have the longest. The exception is Pikachu but even hes not the first one in that evolutionary line.

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    • Either way it looks messy to have some of them named after their first stage evolutions while other ones are named after their final stages.

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    • I agree.

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    • If you are to name the file after the final stage, make sure the final stage is the first image of you see on the page is that of the final form.

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    • @Radical

      I disagree. While the final stages are the most notable part of their families, it still looks unorganized to name the profile after them, only to make the columns for their prior stages come before them. It would be like making all of the columns for his super saiyan forms come before his base form is listed, which looks messy in my opinion.

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    • The SSJ forms arent a one to one comparison. The evolutions are closer to aging then transforming since they cant really go back.

      Look at Krillin's page, we have his DBZ image as the first image while his child version is all the way in the back.

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    • I hate to bring up Digimon on a Pokemon thread(lies)

      But maybe you guys could do it like we treat the WarGreymon and ShineGreymon files in which we name it after the final form, and have that final form be the first image on the file. However, the stats go in order from first stage to final stage.

      For Example, say we do Kommo-o

      Images: Kommo-o, Hakamo-o and Jangmo-o

      Stats: Jangmo-o | Hakamo-o | Kommo-o | Totem Kommo-o

      Keys: ^

      The keys will indicate who the tier is for. (Or common sense really, but I digress)

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    • I thought we already did that?

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    • So, just to be sure, final-stage evolutions as well as Megas are affected by this revision?

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    • With some exceptions of 2-Stage/Single-Stage Pokemon (those that can Mega Evolve, those with scaling, and those with reverence/power/fear)

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    • what was the conclusion to this? Is this done?

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    • LOoks like it.

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    • Gwyn made a comment on the calc.

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    • By this point, it's kinda late...

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    • It's still important to address.

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    • The Tyranitar calc should also be revaluted since i want to sure that is done right, the Charizard one should also not be used because it comes from a very different continuity, where the protagonist and his partner can take on Tier 2 beings.

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    • You guys should still address it...

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    • Okay:

      @Dark649

      The argument relating to Charizard's calc is to show that these types of feats are recurring throughout the entire franchise.

      @Dragonmasterxyz

      Not addressing the scaling thing, most people seem fine with the math itself of the calc, but with his second argument of the: "We can't use environmental feats for AP".

      First of all, energy is energy. The thunderclouds don't come out of thin air, they are produced by the energy contained within the Pokémon's body, an energy that is likely generated by the Pokémon the same way normal animals generate the energy their bodies spend to survive. The fact that the Pokémon doesn't simply spontaneously explode from the sheer power contained within him indicates that it can scale to his AP and durability

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    • @Matt I agree. But I felt this should be addressed to keep this from being mentioned in the future.

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    • This is my proposal of the scaling basing on levels:

      5) Wall level (Via Magikarp calc)

      14) Multi-City Block level+ (Via Pidgeotto tornado calc)

      20/30) City level (Gyarados oneshotting cities and ravaging mountains)

      45) Mountain level or Large Island level (If the Tyranitar mountain calc is accepted)

      Megas) At least Mountain level or at least Large Island level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted)

      Basic Legendaries) At least Large Island level or Small Country level (If the Tyranitar calc is accepted. The other legendaries have their feats and scaling)

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    • The moment yoy have Mountain to Large island level Zweilous is the moment you should rethink the scaling.

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    • My original option is still the best imo.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      The moment yoy have Mountain to Large island level Zweilous is the moment you should rethink the scaling.

      Zweilous? You mean the evolution of Deino & the pre-evolution of Hydreigon? Why would it scale to Mountain Level? It's not part of a Mega Evolution capable line, unlike Tyranitar, & IIRC, the line has few feats.

      HYDREIGON might get Mountain to Large Island Level, but I'm doubtful about Zweilous itself.

      @Dark649: I agree, evaluation of the calc would be good. I will admit, Tyranitar's entries do say it destroys great mountains, changes the landscapes, & the wording suggest multiples, as does scaling to Pupitar....

      But Mauna Loa is a big Mountain/Volcano to use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_volcanoes_by_elevation

      https://www.livescience.com/39681-worlds-biggest-volcanoes.html

      I trust that the math works out, but I'm not the smartest, math-wise. Verifying that the math is correct seems fine to me.

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    • I think the baby Pokemon, 1st Stage worms (Caterpie, Weedle, etc.), and Magikarp should all be Wall level in AP, with Magikarp keeping the High 8-C+ durability.

      Because High 8-C+ Caterpie is simply too much.

      Also, here's my Magikarp calc:

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Magikarp_Leaps_over_a_Mountain

      I'm also really skeptical about using Dark's High 8-C+ Magikarp, considering how much he had to lowball the feat. 

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    • @Imagin

      dark proposed a level-based scaling, which included a lvl 45 Mountain to Large island tier. Deino evolves at level 50 iirc. So it should be in that tier according to this proposal.

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    • Well, I am not informed enough to support either interpretation, but fiction recurrently features glass cannon weather and energy manipulators, reality warpers, etcetera, so it does not always automatically scale to durability.

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    • What Ant said. 

      What Matt is saying doesn't always make sense. There are other weather manipulators that have large feats with it like Storm and Esdeath. They are specifically categorized as Environmental Destruction because it doesn't scale to their normal AP. By Matt's logic, we would scale Storm's normal AP to her Environmental one and Storm would be able to punch regular humans into nothingness, a feat she is clearly incapable of normally. And it would make even less sense to scale such feat to their Durability.

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    • @Antvasima

      It scales until proven contrary. Glass Cannons do not make logical sense (They wouldn't be able to endure the enegy their own body produces) so we have no reason to assume they are glass cannons until proven

      @Boome

      No.

      Those energies don't come from nowhere. They are contained within the characters' bodies and they can endure their own energy, just like we humans produce 100 joules per second and that scales to our durability. The amount of KE and heat energy necessary to produce a thunderstorm is immense, and treating it as "Environmental Destruction" is completely dishonest. Nobody has issues with TK feats being AP, and nobody has issues with heat generation being AP, or producing energy being AP... And storm feats involve all three and people say that they don't scale?

      Feats of Telekinesis and Reality Warping scale to AP, and Weather Manipulation scales as well. Saying that it doesn't is as dishonest as making split AP and durability for punching and energy blasts, which was what people did for Dragon Ball back then, because the best feats were energy beams and they argued that "They can't do that with their punches", ignoring that the power of both their punches and their energy beams coem from their Ki. 

      The only profiles that split AP and Weather Manipulation are either old and unrevized, or specific cases.

      And you do realize that Storm's Lightning is FAR stronger than regular lightning, right?

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    • @Matt

      No one said it isn't. But again, what you're saying doesn't make sense always. The term glass-cannon exists for a reason. And you're applying the law of conservation of energy in fiction, where it clearly is misused and downright ignored.

      And not always is the body able to endure the energy it produces, case in point.

      The more logical way of action would be to treat them as glass cannons until proven otherwise, because creating a storm is not the same thing as enduring it.

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    • No. You have to treat them as not being glass cannons until proven wrong, because glass cannons are something that don't make logical sense.

      >Character telekinetically moves a building generating KE, okay with scaling to AP

      >Character generates heat, okay with scaling to AP

      >Character manipulates energy to produce a power-source or fire beams, okay with scaling to AP

      >A character creates a thunderstorm, materializing clouds out of his own energy and / or moving those clouds at fast speeds generating KE, and expending energies to produce heat and energy for all the thunders that will be released by these clouds, suddenly not okay with scaling to AP.

      All the energy comes from where? From the character's own body and power, and until proven wrong you assume that it scales to their durability or else they'd explode under their own power.

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    • Pokemon energy is in no way generated by them.

      "Slakoth rolls around for over twenty hours every day. Because it moves so little, it does not need much food. This Pokémon's sole daily meal consists of just three leaves."

      if we're gonna take the logic that Pokemon dont pull from external energy sources then this guy is below average human.

      Also with what you're saying how would the term "glass cannon" exist, if for example, this guy can produce this much energy and somehow it scales to his durability. Do you know how many profiles would need rescaling from this?

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    • @Dash

      Okay, so it comes out of thin air? The energy is generated by them, not necessarely from food metabolism but somehow. Or perhaps they don't need nearly enough food like we humans do. Because I have never heard Pokemon pulling from "External power sources" ever being a thing.

      Glass Cannons exist when characters are proven to be Glass Cannons, you don't just assume that they are out of nowhere. I never denied their existence.

      And if you want to argue about rescaling, you do realize that there was a consensus reached a long while ago that Storm Feats do scale to AP, and this is how the vast majority of profiles here are created under their assumption? The only times the few people that disagree bring up them not scaling is when they wouldn't like how powerful that would make the character, which showcases bias.

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    • Well, I am not mentioning the AP. I am just saying that we probably have to evaluate such feats on a case by case basis regarding whether it scales to striking strength and durability.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, I am not mentioning the AP. I am just saying that we probably have to evaluate such feats on a case by case basis regarding whether it scales to striking strength and durability.

      Probably, but it is very conspicuous that nobody has a problem with scaling Energy Beams to AP, Telekinesis KE to AP, Heat Generation to AP, Reality Warping to AP, etc etc. But suddenly when someone does a thunderstorm which involves matter generation / telekinesis / heat production, people insist that it doesn't scale.

      It's a severe bias in the system.

      It is reminiscent of the old "Split Durability Fallacy" that OBD applied to Dragon Ball characters back in 2011. They argued that DBZ characters could only Planet-bust with their energy beams, and they were unable to tank such attacks as well. Which led to things like Goku being like, Town level via Striking Feats and Planet level with Kamehameha.

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    • @Matthew I do not have a problem with scaling it to the AP. I just do not think that it generally automatically scales to the striking strength and durability.

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    • "Yeah, there's this thing called mystical magic power bs that is in almost every fiction ever."

      Energy is energy, be it scientific or magical. This argument is completely meaningless. Things such as Chi, "Spiritual Power", "Magical Power", or whatever your Verse decides to call the mystical energy that the characters use can be perfectly be measured in Joules in feats.

      And until you can prove that such is the case with Pokemon, I'm not buying. Specially since Pokemon are meant to be the equivalent of normal animals in their universe.

      "But there's no evidence for both and normally when we do that, we don't pick the one that upgrades them."

      No, we pick the one that makes the most sense. You need to prove that it's mystical energy, and even if it was it would still be produced somehow. Energy is energy, and it doesn't come from nowhere.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Matthew I do not have a problem with scaling it to the AP. I just do not think that it generally automatically scales to the striking strength and durability.

      It doesn't scale to Striking Strength. Striking is Physical only by definition.

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    • @Thebluedash Please remember to keep a friendly and respectful tone in this wiki. Thank you.

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    • Thunder is a move, which animation slighty varies between games and was used only by a few trainers, we should focus more on the Tyranitar calc, which should be evaluated.

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    • Antvasima
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    • If it scales to AP it ends up scaling to durability regardless.

      If a Pokemon has High 7-A AP, and it can battle another Pokemon of the same species without them one-shotting each other, this means that the durability is High 7-A too

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    • @Matthew Okay. No problem then.

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    • @dark

      We have already argued extensively over the animation, and most people are fine with it.

      But yes, the Tyranitar calc is easier to be accepted by skeptics. And regardless, this calc also shows another Tier 7 for Pokemon which is good.

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    • Regarding the durability, if the Pokemon is question can each withstand attacks from each other, I suppose that it does scale to durability in this case. I was just making a statement about characters in general.

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    • Okay. All of the off-topic posts have been removed. For the record, I technically agree with Arigarmy and ScarletFirefly that the situation cannot continue like this, especially if people deny all responsibility when confronted about it.

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    • I will talk with Kavpeny regarding how to solve this issue. In the meantime, please return to the main topic of discussion.

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    • @Ant Could you stop deleting you comments ? it's quite annoying

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    • My apologies, but it was necessary in this case. Please return to discussing the main topic.

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    • @Overlord775 I'm updating people who are against to the upgrade. You are against it correct?

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    • What's being said about glass cannons is false. Reality warping requires no energy, yet Haruhi is a normal human that can split timelimes and reshape universal reality. Glass cannons are also far more common in fiction than we realize. We can't always scale durability to AP, again, this would work with Destructive Capacity due to the logic that if I could destroy a building and I did so unscathed, I'd have to comparable durability otherwise I would've hurt myself, but Attack Potency isn't always Destructive Capacity, it involves other mechanics and powers. Durability could be scaled to Striking Strength as well in that regard.

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    • I agree, but we should probably return to the issue of whether or not this applies to the Pokemon in question.

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    • I still stand by my point that they can battle each other so it should scale to their durability, otherwise every battle would end as soon as a Pokemon hits the other.

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    • I also agree with Kaltias.

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    • Of course it applies to the Pokemon in question. I agree with Kaltiad as well.

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    • There are multiple staff who havent replied to this thread due to.. issues that also disagree. (Antonio, Gwynbleidd and Dark649)

      Also Gwynbleidd pointed out issues with the calc itself that havent been addressed

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    • @TheBlueDash yes, i disagree, meanly because in the newer pokemon games the animation only shows a small cloud and the calc uses pixel mesurament is a context where a 1,8 meter electivire and a 14,5 meters wailord look almost the same size

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    • The calc doesn't pixel scale anything tho.

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    • Kaltias wrote:
      The calc doesn't pixel scale anything tho.

      it uses the hight of the pokemon to calculate the horizon distance and it that game the pokemons are pixelated

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    • It uses the official height from the Pokedex, there is no pixel scaling involved

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    • LordAizenSama wrote: There are multiple staff who havent replied to this thread due to.. issues that also disagree. (Antonio, Gwynbleidd and Dark649)

      Also Gwynbleidd pointed out issues with the calc itself that havent been addressed

      I see. Well I'm a patient girl, and would rather hear them out first before deciding anything. It's best to wait for them.

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    • Gwyn's issues have actually been addressed multiple times.

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    • Considering I did the exact same thing as other accepted cloud calcs, I don't see what the problem was there. Also...Dark doesn't disagree.

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    • I would like more input on the Charizard calc, as there seems to be some issues with whether or not it can be used.

      http://vsbattles.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:ArbitraryNumbers/Charizard_melts_stuff

      I also still think we should address one statement I've made earlier:

      Me, Cal, and Radical have all calc'd feats and gotten High 6-C high end results, and these are all feats from normal Pokemon. Throw in 6-C Delibird and Magnitude and we have some strong consistency going on. 

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    • After a further analysis i disagree. The Charizard calc comes from a totally different continuity where Lombre, who was praising his power from probably a lie, which was told to him because he also believed to Gengar, who was lying and that Charizard was stomped by Mewtwo, who was stomped by the protagonist, so this should be not taken. The same can be said about the 6-C Delibird from the manga, who was vastly trained just like the Octillery that filled the lake valor. Lastly we have the Dugtrio magnitude attack, which is iffy because in a fight it is nearly impossible to expect a magnitude 10 and the Tyranitar calc should be checked.

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