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  • 1.Should this page even exist?Is she a canon character or did she only appear in the cinematic trailer?

    2.Vivec should be at least Large Island level instead of the assumed Country level.Sotha Sil and Almalexia are his equals so they are scaled to him, the Ruddy Man fought Vivec and it took both Sotha Sil and Almalexia to banish Dagon back to oblivion so his manifestations on Mundus should be at this level.

    I think the Nerevarine will scale to that but i haven't played Morrowind and i'm a bit unfamiliar with the lore surrounding him.

    3.Joseph619 pointed out that this feat may actually be just poetic speech and not an actual feat.Personally i don't think it's not a possibility but i would like to hear more opinions.

    If this gets accepted Dovahkiin and whoever scales to him will be put atthis level .

    4.Should Lord Harkon powerscale to the Dragonborn?

    Unlike Miraak, Vahlok who are connected via lore with the Dragonborn, Harkon is just a game boss so it may be better to judge him by his own feats?

    5.Mankar Camoran's stats seem very wanky.

    He didn't create Paradise on his own.He used the Mysterium Xarxes to either open a portal to it or create it (i think it was the first but i'm unsure) so why would the feat of a deadric artifact that can't be used offensively count as his own AP?

    Also are there any evidence for Paradise being large enough to count as Island level?

    The Champion of Cyrodiil is scaled to Camoran so if the above is accepted he will have to be judged by other feats.If he has any.

    6.Pelinal Whitestrake's page says that he is Planet level because he had the will to kill the Earth as a whole.

    I don't think i need to explain myself on this one.

    Umaril is scaled to this and there is some other explanation on his page about him being the son of a god.I'll check it later to see if it gives any evidence for stats.

    7.Shouldn't Umbra be 2-B or 2-A for stealing a noteworthy amount of Clavicus Vile's power (who himself is 2-A)?

    8.Didn't Molag Bal use some kind of "machines" to drag Nirn into his realm while he was in Oblivion and it wasn't something that was done immediately.

    So why would his physical manifestation in Mundus be Planet level?

    9.Wasn't Dagon going to enter Mundus in his true form in Oblivion?

    So shoudn't Akatosh's avatar be 2-A for defeating Dagon's true form?

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    • I'm gonna give my opinion on the one that I have knowledge on. 

      1. Yes Altmer Mage should exist. Cannon or not, it is still a character that offically created by the company. (Thats basically say: All Dragon ball GT characters should be deleted because it isn't cannon). 

      3. We don't have any evidence to support that it is just for poetic (other than gameplay, which doesn't count for me). 

      4. We shouldn't scale him to dragon born. Since dragonborn is your in game character, the power of him and DB will be varies on your character levels. (DB can very well easily beaten him if your character are too overpower and viseversa)  

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    • 2. How do we know how large Morrowind is?

      I don't think Nerevarine should scale to peak Vivec. He can potentially kill a weakened Vivec, though, but not permanently.

      I agree on 5, 6, 8 and 9.

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    • @Vaka-Elk The numbers where on Skyrim's and Morrowind's pages on The Elder Scrolls wiki.I'll check if there is a source.

      @Woodgod Does the Altmer mage even appear anywhere else except the trailer?

      Dragon Ball is an extremely popular series and even though GT isn't cannon it had a full fledged story.

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    • @Gwynbleiddd',' I don't think she does but still, I mean she does has some feats (so we know how powerful she is), I don't think we need to get rid of her, she can very well be in a versus debate. Yeah, you're right GT part. 

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    • Gwynbleiddd wrote:

      1.Should this page even exist?Is she a canon character or did she only appear in the cinematic trailer?

      I haven't actually played ESO yet so I have no idea.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 2.Vivec should be at least Large Island level instead of the assumed Country level.Sotha Sil and Almalexia are his equals so they are scaled to him, the Ruddy Man fought Vivec and it took both Sotha Sil and Almalexia to banish Dagon back to oblivion so his manifestations on Mundus should be at this level.

      I think the Nerevarine will scale to that but i haven't played Morrowind and i'm a bit unfamiliar with the lore surrounding him.

      I think those both are fine, since they make sense from a lore perspective. I believe it took both Vivec and the Ruddy Man together for the Country level damage to Morrowind.

      I'm also unsure as to the Nerevarine's scaling to that or not, since I haven't gotten that far in Morrowind yet.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 3.Joseph619 pointed out that this feat may actually be just poetic speech and not an actual feat.Personally i don't think it's not a possibility but i would like to hear more opinions.

      If this gets accepted Dovahkiin and whoever scales to him will be put atthis level .

      Well the Greybeards did shake the land of Skyrim in-game if I remember correctly, in order to beckon the Dragonborn to them. Given their advanced age, they might have been able pull off what the lore says they did with shaking the world back in their heyday. However I doubt very much that the current Dragonborn is on that level, seeing as he has only had his powers for about a year and Miraak is possibly weaker than he was in the Merethic Era. There is nothing to directly imply that however and is just a guess on my part due to Vahlok, who almost killed Miraak at the time, is in-game level 50 in his undead state, while the player can be higher level then that upon encountering him.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 4.Should Lord Harkon powerscale to the Dragonborn?

      Unlike Miraak, Vahlok who are connected via lore with the Dragonborn, Harkon is just a game boss so it may be better to judge him by his own feats?

      I think that would be best, seeing as there's really nothing else on him and scaling him from the Dragonborn (who himself is being scaled from 'lore' Miraak) is pretty unreliable unless scaling from the DB's in-game feats.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 5.Mankar Camoran's stats seem very wanky.

      He didn't create Paradise on his own.He used the Mysterium Xarxes to either open a portal to it or create it (i think it was the first but i'm unsure) so why would the feat of a deadric artifact that can't be used offensively count as his own AP?

      Also are there any evidence for Paradise being large enough to count as Island level?

      The Champion of Cyrodiil is scaled to Camoran so if the above is accepted he will have to be judged by other feats.If he has any.

      I think Mankar's feats should be scaled from his in-game showings instead of what he did through the Mysterium Xarxes, seeing as the artifact did all the work in creating Gaiar Alata/Paradise.

      As for the size of Paradise, I'm not sure about its size however it should be smaller than the in-game map for Cyrodiil which is as follows,

      Oblivion Cyrodiil Worldspace: 4288 x 4128 [ 134 x 129 TES4 size cells ] = 7.7km x 7.4km = 57 sq km = 22 sq miles.

      ^please note, this is in-game size, not actual size. On a 1:1 scale, Cyrodiil (and Tamriel as a whole) is much bigger.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 6.Pelinal Whitestrake's page says that he is Planet level because he had the will to kill the Earth as a whole.

      I don't think i need to explain myself on this one.

      Umaril is scaled to this and there is some other explanation on his page about him being the son of a god.I'll check it later to see if it gives any evidence for stats.

      Having the "will" to do something and actually doing it are not the same thing... so no he shouldn't scale from that.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote:

      7.Shouldn't Umbra be 2-B or 2-A for stealing a noteworthy amount of Clavicus Vile's power (who himself is 2-A)?

      Yeah that seems reasonable.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 8.Didn't Molag Bal use some kind of "machines" to drag Nirn into his realm while he was in Oblivion and it wasn't something that was done immediately.

      So why would his physical manifestation in Mundus be Planet level?

      From what I could scrounge up on the ES Wiki, Molag Bal did use machines called Dark Anchors for that purpose, yes. He did create them, however seeing as the effects of the anchors weren't immediate and were limited to Tamriel as opposed to all of Nirn, he should not be Planet level imo.

      Gwynbleiddd wrote: 9.Wasn't Dagon going to enter Mundus in his true form in Oblivion?

      So shoudn't Akatosh's avatar be 2-A for defeating Dagon's true form?

      I think he did do that, however isn't he not as strong in Mundus as he would be in Oblivion? For that matter if Akatosh is 2-A (which the avatar should not be, imo if MD is in fact weaker on Mundus) then Almalexia and Sotha Sil should be as well (or at least closer to it) for doing the same thing together back in ancient Morrowind.

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    • bump?

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    • Hmmm I not 100% sure as I not completely sure with this. Your third point is something I can agree. It will label as a possibility if the feat has already happened.

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    • 1.Should this page even exist?Is she a canon character or did she only appear in the cinematic trailer?

      I didn't play ESO but if she doesn't have anything to do with the game itself or the lore likely no

      2.Vivec should be at least Large Island level instead of the assumed Country level.Sotha Sil and Almalexia are his equals so they are scaled to him, the Ruddy Man fought Vivec and it took both Sotha Sil and Almalexia to banish Dagon back to oblivion so his manifestations on Mundus should be at this level.

      I think the Nerevarine will scale to that but i haven't played Morrowind and i'm a bit unfamiliar with the lore surrounding him.

      Well first I think your calc will need to be accepted by the calc group and if it is your calc will be more concrete than the level vivec was given

      3.Joseph619 pointed out that this feat may actually be just poetic speech and not an actual feat.Personally i don't think it's not a possibility but i would like to hear more opinions.

      If this gets accepted Dovahkiin and whoever scales to him will be put atthis level .

      No the way it was written in the game does not seem to be poetic and it is not completely unreasonable to think the Greybeards would be to be capable

      4.Should Lord Harkon powerscale to the Dragonborn?

      Unlike Miraak, Vahlok who are connected via lore with the Dragonborn, Harkon is just a game boss so it may be better to judge him by his own feats?

      I think he should cause if i'm correct he is one of the main antagonists

      5.Mankar Camoran's stats seem very wanky.

      He didn't create Paradise on his own.He used the Mysterium Xarxes to either open a portal to it or create it (i think it was the first but i'm unsure) so why would the feat of a deadric artifact that can't be used offensively count as his own AP?

      Also are there any evidence for Paradise being large enough to count as Island level?

      The Champion of Cyrodiil is scaled to Camoran so if the above is accepted he will have to be judged by other feats.If he has any.

      i haven't played Oblivion in a while but if the Mysterium Xarxes isn't able to be used as an offensive weapon The Champion of Cyrodill should be downgraded and if it was a portal Mankar should downgraded but if the island was created his tier should remain the same just a mention of the artifact

      6.Pelinal Whitestrake's page says that he is Planet level because he had the will to kill the Earth as a whole.

      I don't think i need to explain myself on this one.

      Umaril is scaled to this and there is some other explanation on his page about him being the son of a god.I'll check it later to see if it gives any evidence for stats.

      idk tbh it doesn't seem completely out of range for Pelinal especially considering this is Elder Scrolls and that he had destroyed masses of land in rage however maybe his tier should actually be Unknown Possibly Planet level

      7.Shouldn't Umbra be 2-B or 2-A for stealing a noteworthy amount of Clavicus Vile's power (who himself is 2-A)?

      might be 2-A

      8.Didn't Molag Bal use some kind of "machines" to drag Nirn into his realm while he was in Oblivion and it wasn't something that was done immediately.

      So why would his physical manifestation in Mundus be Planet level?

      I think Molag Bal created the machines to do so

      9.Wasn't Dagon going to enter Mundus in his true form in Oblivion?

      So shoudn't Akatosh's avatar be 2-A for defeating Dagon's true form?

      this one i'm not too sure about because i haven't played the game in awhile

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    • "3.Joseph619 pointed out that this feat may actually be just poetic speech and not an actual feat.Personally i don't think it's not a possibility but i would like to hear more opinions."

      While I do not think that the speech was poetic, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while. Notably in that Nirn/Tamriel is nowhere near the size of the real world going off of canon info. As you can see here, the entire continent of Tamriel isn't even the size of Australia, and going by this in-game globe the planet itself isn't much bigger than Tamriel is.

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    • 1. She's an altmer mage right? She's not signigificant to have a profile here but I guess we could ignore it 

      2. I agree

      3. The problem is, shook the world is often used as a metaphor. Was there any consequence mentioned of Greybeard's action when they shook the world? I believe it's poetic speech for that reason

      4. Lord Harkon is a game boss and so should be judged by his own feats/feats of other vampires. Miraak is from Dragonborn while Harkon is from Dawnguard, so it's safe to treat them separately as they're not related.

      5. I agree with the downgrade

      6. Darkness's solution seems ok 

      7. By scaling yes should be possibly 2-A

      8. I don't think he should be planet level

      9. Not sure, I don't remember it well enough

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    • I'm not particularly well versed in Elder Scrolls, but here are my opinions.

      1. I guess it should be okay? I don't think it be an issue to keep it, but I guess its okay to delete too.

      2. Is there any visual representation or at least lore of what "carving out the West Gash"? Either way, the feat seems like it be done over time (feel free to correct me if i'm wrong), so I think At least Large Island is okay.

      3. It all depends on the context of "shaking the world", really. Does anyone have the quote to where they were said to have shook the world?

      7. I believe "Possibly 2-A" is appropriate.

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    • LordXcano wrote: While I do not think that the speech was poetic, I've been meaning to bring this up for a while. Notably in that Nirn/Tamriel is nowhere near the size of the real world going off of canon info. As you can see here, the entire continent of Tamriel isn't even the size of Australia, and going by this in-game globe the planet itself isn't much bigger than Tamriel is.

      I think that's debatable, to be honest. The distance from Vvardenfell/Red Mountain to Mournhold is supposed to be 250 miles, which is impossible on such an overly small scale. A more recent, canon-friendly approach to gauging Tamriel's size was given here and allows for a literal interpretation of the distances given in many in-game books. Also, considering the medieval fantasy setting of the human provinces, the in-game globe may well be about as accurate as this real life medieval globe.

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    • The thing is, the Dovahkiin is scaled to the Greybeards who are able to shake the entire planet with a Shout meant to call someone to come forth. Also, The small city level rating is prior to Miraak spending thousands of years collecting knowledge from Apocrapha. I think there should be separate pages for Lore Characters and Ingame Characters. The Dovahkiin, for example, would be At Least Building Level via Dragonborn Force since you can vaporize people with it.

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    • @Consuming

      Oh wow that's cool. I guess using Earth-size is fine then.

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    • 3. Well the Graybeards do shake skyrim cause wherever you go on the map after killing the first dragon the graybeards do shout and shake everything. They also need to be able to call the dragonborn wherever he/she may be so they should be capable of shaking the planet unless DragonBorns only appear in skyrim only.

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    • @Gwynbleiddd on your calc you say the feat was done by an unknown amount of Graybeards but when you get up their and ask them how many of them their are the main graybeard (I really can't remember his name) tells you their are only 4 of them 5 if you include their leader Parthenax. But we know only the graybeards shouted

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    • @LordGriffin1000 The feat was done hundreds of years before the events of skyrim when Tiber Septim was alive.And Greybeards are mortal men so it's clear that the 4 that were in Skyrim didn't even exist then.

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    • Oh... My bad I really apologize

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    • 1. ...I guess not? I mean, I don't particularly care.

      2. Alright.

      3. I highly doubt it's "just" poetry. Things around the Dragonborn's level have been similarly hyped up as threats of some grand scale, it would be pretty consistent.

      4. I think it should be fine, if he's a named story character, for the guy to scale, but I don't really know?

      5. Maybe "So-and-so level with hax via the Mysterium Xarxes", and a seperate stat block for Mankar's standard AP?

      6. ...you sort of do. In what context does it say it has the power to kill the Earth as a whole? For that matter, since when was the Earth referred to as "The Earth" at all in Elder Scrolls? Did I miss something?

      7-9. Don't know enough about the series, sorry. If you can cite these things, then go for it I suppose.

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    • Would these affect anything?

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    • Were those calcs accepted?

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    • God-King Superman77 wrote:
      Were those calcs accepted?

      They Storm Call Calc was put in the Comprehensive Energy Scale, I'm not sure whether that counts as accepted or not. This Speed Calc was Accepted: https://forums.hero-academia.com/xfa-blog-entry/odahviing-hear-my-voice-and-come-forth.36201/

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    • This makes him MHS+

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    • God-King Superman77 wrote:
      This makes him MHS+

      And any other character that scales with him

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    • @Gwynbleiddd, Darkness552, Darkanine, ThePerpetual, The Everlasting & LordXcano So, what is the conclusion here?

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    • About the Odahviing calc, isn't that using in-game speed over real-speed? In Skyrim 20 seconds pass for each 1 second in real time, which would mean Odahviig actually arrived in 100 seconds rather than 5. That'd make it Mach 199.1 rather than Mach 4000~.

      @Ant

      My main concern was with the size of the planet, but that was resolved. I don't know enough about the lore to comment on much else. I do think that the Greybears actually shook the planet, so they'd keep their current ranking IMO.

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    • LordXcano wrote: About the Odahviing calc, isn't that using in-game speed over real-speed? In Skyrim 20 seconds pass for each 1 second in real time, which would mean Odahviig actually arrived in 100 seconds rather than 5. That'd make it Mach 199.1 rather than Mach 4000~.

      To add to that, Skyrim's in-game map is also scaled down considerably from its true size.

      The size of Skyrim in-game is about 37.1 km² (14.3 square miles), while on a 1:1 scale Skyrim would be about 3,554,994.37035 km² (1,372,591 square miles) when going by the manual for Arena which says Tamriel is 12,000,000 square miles.

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    • @Consuming

      That would increase the result, but they already adjusted for Skryim in-game not being as big as real Skyrim.

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    • @LordXcano

      Oh okay I wasn't sure if they did that.

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    • I guess the question, then, is if to count the 20 seconds as "combat time" and thus meant to be measured within real-world time given the context? Or to consider this as being portrayed as over some significant length of time that would justify accounting for the different in-game time flow?

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    • Even the in-game time flow would mean Odah arrived in just under 2 minutes. It's not super unreasonable. It'd be like calling your friend from across the country and them arriving minutes later.

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    • Can anyone link me the original forum discussion that resulted in TES Gods being placed at 2-A? Despite the fact that their showing in game are not quite up to par. And why is CHIM so "jerked"? It's mentioned like twice in-game and we have no real idea what it is or does. 

      Edit: Nvm I did some further reading. 

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    • 1) - The cinematics are canon. But that doesn't mean we need a page for some random elf.

      2) - Calcs aren't really my thing.

      3) - It is poetic speech. Does that mean it didn't happen? Idk. There is a solid feat for the Greybeards in-game though, check out this vid where they cause earthquakes from High Hrothgar to Whiterun (possibly much further) just as a by product of calling the LDB's title and remember Skyrim is scaled down in-game and the real distance between Whiterun and High Hrothgar is much greater: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESVj75HyKek#t=0m44s

      4) - All that we know for certain is that the LDB defeated Harkon and that Auriel's Bow was involved in some manner.

      5) - Mankor to unknown. CoC also.

      6) - Pelinal best to unknown... I think.

      7) - I don't think so. For me the et Ada are 2-A because they embody concepts that permeate through infinite mulitverses. Stealing power from Vile doesn't really mean Umbra becomes like him. There are many different type of power. Vile getting his ass kicked is sort of part of his character :D

      8) - A hard one. Plenty of uncertainty here. A thing to understand about TES; the realms of the gods ARE the gods, so Bal and his realm are one and the same. The planemeld in ESO was Bal trying to fuse Nirn into himself. Which leads me to believe that the "machines" he was using were a part of him. 

      9) - Again, Dagon was trying to fuse Nirn into himself. So that wasn't his true form, the dragonfires are not the only thing that prevents the Daedra from entering Mundus, there is also the towers and all the earthbones and minor spirits hanging around. So I don't think their avatars are 2-A and their battle certainly didn't look 2-A lol. 

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    • Were the suggested changes ever applied for this thread?

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    • .

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    • What still needs to be decided here?

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    • 1. no no shes canon as far as im aware

      2. i agree, whoever handled Vivec just followed either non canon sources such as that roleplay, and heavy assumptions

      3. Clavicus Vile states: "Oh, if I had my full power, granting that would be trivial. I'd simply snap my fingers, and everyone in Skyrim would die. War resolved."

      then says

      "As much as I hate to say it, you're almost as powerful as I am right now. But that's just because half of my power resides in that mutt, Barbas."  

      this was in skyrim. Dovahkiin is about half as powerful as Clavicus Vile.

      He can keep the island level rating

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    • I also remember that. How powerful is Clavicus Vile in Mundus?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I also remember that. How powerful is Clavicus Vile in Mundus?

      I would say he's comparable to the Aspect of Hircine that The Nerevarine fought.

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    • Okay, and what statistics would this mean specifically?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Okay, and what statistics would this mean specifically?

      Now that I think about it. I wouldn't say that he's at Hircine's level. It honestly has no basis, just my assumption off of him being a daedric prince like Hircine. However, He should definitely be slightly stronger than Dovahkiin. He specifically stated that the Dovahkiin was near his level because half of his power was in Barbas. Clavicus also hinted at the fact he could wipe out all life across Skyrim with his heavily restrained power. As for what Statistics, It would look something like this.

      Tier: 6-C 

      Attack Potency: At least Island Level (Stated the the Dovahkiin was comparable at half power)

      Speed: Unknown 

      Durability: At least Island Level (Stated the Dovahkiin was comparable at half power.

      Lifting Strength: Unknown

      Stamina: Unknown

      Range: At least Hundreds of Kilometers (Was confident he could wipe out all the life of Skyrim)

      Attack Potency and Durability may be subject to change if The Dovahkiin is upgraded to 6-A

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    • God-King Superman77 wrote:
      This makes him MHS+

      This Calc  for the Dovahkiin was finally accepted by the OBD.

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    • Well, weather manipulation is not automatically scaled to striking strength and durability.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, weather manipulation is not automatically scaled to striking strength and durability.

      You bring a fair point. However, I would like to argue it does since in The Dovahkiin's Case. My reasoning is that if Miraak is on par with the Dovahkiin in every stat, including Attack Potency, that would mean the Dovahkiin can tank said amount of energy since Miraak can produce similar levels. Another thing, Do you think the Statistics I presented for Clavicus' Stats while in Mundus are accurate?

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    • Well, I am uncertain. Miraak was severely outclassed by my character, but I suppose that they are officially comparable.

      Scaling Clavicus from the Dragonborn seems reasonable. I just wondered if the opposite was possible.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, I am uncertain. Miraak was severely outclassed by my character, but I suppose that they are officially comparable.

      Scaling Clavicus from the Dragonborn seems reasonable. I just wondered if the opposite was possible.

      Miraak by the current Wiki Standards is 6-C because he fought the Dovahkiin. He would be 6-A by the same logic. Take it either way you like, this is just how I see it.

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    • Okay.

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    • Was just reading over this staff only post and it is something I agree with.

      Many of the powers and abilities that are listed for TES characters, especially gods, makes them seem more impressive than they actually are. The context is important here, perhaps we can give this some thought? 

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I am uncertain. Miraak was severely outclassed by my character, but I suppose that they are officially comparable.

      Scaling Clavicus from the Dragonborn seems reasonable. I just wondered if the opposite was possible.

      That is called game mechanics. In lore and story DB and Miraak were equally matched and had a very long, drawn out fight. But LDB soon came out on top.

      likely because herma was pissed at miraak and could've likely gave LDB the extra edge via controlling apocrypha

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    • @Shazam121 What do you suggest?

      @Riiingo Okay.

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    • Some of the powers and abilities such as reality warping, causality manipulation, omnipresence, abstract existence could use a little more explanation. And there are some abilities listed for which I can't figure out why. 

      Let me take reality warping for a start; reality warping is a very broad term, you can fit just about anything under it. Magic is after all almost inherently reality warping. Off the top of my head I remember that we learned during the interview with Fa-Nuit-Hen we learn that he controls the intricacies of his realm with the power of his will.

       “my pocket reality is a projection of my mind, nature, and will. Indeed, reality as personal manifestation is the norm in all the highly-organized realms I have visited”

      Which is hard to quantify. I personally have no clue what sort of “reality warping” the gods are capable of, does anyone have a source for this?

      Also, we should probably make clear the fact that the 2-A ratings don’t imply 2-A destructive power. It seems unlikely that any one in TES could destroy the entirety of Oblivion for example.

      I’m curious as to what others think and if we can find some direct combat and abilities feats. 

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    • At this point merely having a good effect confirmed on a multiverse could quantify to 2-A

      And Asriel ranked as 2-A for having infinite power does not mean he necessarily can destroy 4D infinite timelines, nor does he have any feats

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    • Oh no doubt, not arguing againt the 2-A rating, just saying it should always be made clear. 

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    • Oh, ok then

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    • Well, I am not knowledgeable enough about this subject to help you with writing clarifications/explanations. All that I can do is unlock and lock tje pages, and even that takes up quite a bit of time in my schedule.

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    • A FANDOM user
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