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  • First, I agree with classifying her as a female, but I tried to leave aside my personal opinions and remain the most neutral possible.

    Now, should I delete the explanatory note that I wrote on the profile to explain the "unknown" classification. Even if it isn't deleted, I should at least modify it, to remove the part in which I explain the "unknown".

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    • I honestly feel like the note isn't needed, but I didn't want to delete it without your input either. We're not a general catalog of fictional characters, our pages are written in the context of "versus" stuff, with powers, abilities, and that kinda stuff, not really something with in-depth discussions on gender identity with characters.

      That kind of discussion is totally relevant and great, juuuust not here (on pages at least, it should be fine in threads and stuff). I'd use a wiki like lgbtqia-characters wiki or characters wiki for that kind of stuff instead.

      So yeah, I think we should just list her as a female without the big note.

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    • I had a little dialogue with Antvasima today about that here. The note's purpose is just to explain the "unknown" and sums what has been said over the years, and the latest input about her gender is being classified as unknown in the latest game. Personally, I'm fine with both female and unknown, but the note serves only in case she gets classified as unknown. I don't know who should take the final decision.

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    • Would it be better to list gender as "Biologically male, but indentifies as female" or no?



      Personally I'd rather have it be specified on the profile somewhat, but having an entire note for it is unnecesary. If you feel the need to just not specify it at all fine but eh.



      Edit: wait, poison's gneder is unknown? Then shouldn't it be listed as "Unknown"?

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    • Ant asked me to write the note about it. The problem is that it is currently unknown if she has undergone operation or not, the latest game says that her gender is unknown, and, prior to the release of the game, the producer said that she is post-op in North America, but not in Japan, and he then changed his mind again saying that it is left to the fans to decide.

      The same thing has been said the designer of Final Fight

      The only certain thing is that she identifies herself as a female and so do the other characters

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    • "Biologically male, identifies as female" is about the worst thing you can put, next to just "male". If they identify as a lady, then they're a lady. There are trans people who haven't gone through the operation or have taken proper medication but are still women.

      Just list her as female, it's clear that's what she identifies with.

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    • Don't get me wrong, I absolutely agree with you, and that's why I pointed it out.

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    • Well, biological gender and gender identity are different things, and we don’t really have a standard for which one “gender” is listed as on a profile.

      And honestly no matter what standard we choose it would cause massive controversy from one side or the other

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    • Biological gender is not a thing, you're mixing it up with biological sex. They're different, and we should only list gender (which honestly, we have a lot of stuff to revise for """genderless""" characters like Rosemon and Ophanimon...)

      And I don't think it'll cause much controversy. This is a pretty accepting community, all things considered.

      @Saman. Apologies if I came off as aggressive, I just don't understand why this is an issue to begin with.

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    • I am the one who needs to apologize, if I seemed offensive. It started because Ant, and I am 10000% sure he was in good faith, wrote (biologically male), trying to stick with factual accuracy. I made the error of trying to pull out an official position from Capcom, while Capcom itself doesn't seem willing to accept the character as it is. In the end, if Capcom says that the fans can decide, then we can do what we want, and listing her as female is the right thing to do.

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    • No I mean like, no matter what you do it’ll cause controversy towards one side or the other.

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    • My apologies if I caused offense. I am just obsessed with trying to provide as matter of fact and reliable information as possible to our visitors. It is a side-effect of being autistic.

      Would it be acceptable to write "Transgendered female" or "Transexual female" in the gender sections, and otherwise use female pronouns, in the profiles for Poison and similar characters in this wiki, in order to not omit important information?

      Or do you know of another better non-offensive wording as a solution to such issues?

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    • Well to be fair we don’t know if they’re transgender or not

      But there’s no way to word it that won’t piss at least one side off.

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    • Well, I just want to be able to word it in a way that is simultaneously politically correct, and does not omit any important information.

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    • Yeah, I agree

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    • Thank you.

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    • Just female. I have talked to other trans users about this yesterday and we all agree that just listing her as female is best. The other information is irrelevant, especially to battle-boarding, and we typically don't list this kind of side information on characters anyway, so I don't get why it's being an issue now.

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    • Well, as you probably know I am a compulsively obsessive perfectionist who wants every little detail of this wiki to be as accurate and reliable as possible, so I would prefer if we could include the information if characters are transexual females or males in some manner that does not cause offense.

      Could you please think about if there is some possible solution for this?

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    • I have put thought into this; not everything needs some eureka moment-type compromise. She is a female character, who was born male. At best, a small note (not the paragraph long one we have) denoting this, I don't get why you're trying to make this into such an issue.

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    • Well, as I mentioned, I am not neurotypical, and among other things this means that I am absolutely obsessed with accuracy in all details, and this perfectionism is actually one of the main reasons why this wiki grew so prominent in the first place, as it was a dumpster when I first came here.

      Small footnotes that mention this in some manner are acceptable to me, or we could simply state "Female, but was born male" in the gender sections, as you mentioned above, and otherwise use female pronouns. However, we need to define what should be said in the sections in question as a standard for all cases with transexual characters featured here.

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    • I don't care what we chose but Ant can you please stop saying you're on the autistic spectrum?

      It's not an argument and makes it come of as if you're trying to deflect criticism by virtue of being one

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    • I am explaining how I fundamentally work. It isn't like I am lying. I really am completely obsessed with perfection, details, accuracy, and statistics, and do not think that this is a bad thing. From my perspective, it is everybody else who are weird for not caring about these things.

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    • You are obessive about details and accuracy, so what?

      You going on and on about being autistic really seems like a poor defense against just labeling a trans woman a woman which sorta comes transphobic, even if not meant to

      So just stop doing it and just stick to trying to write down her gender in an unoffensive way, please and thank you

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    • Tll i get your and Amelia's point of view, but i don't see why that would justify you being rude to Ant.

      Imo just listing it as female would be fine, it's not like it's relevant anyway.

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    • Rude how?

      If I kept saying "I'm a Jew ergo xy and z" when dealing with a sensative topic and you'd call me out on that you'd be rightfully doing so

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    • Dunno man, mad sounds to me like you're just ignoring his condition by going "so what" and then saying he sounds transphobic.

      It's not a excuse, i agree and i have no idea how the fuck the jew comparison is supposed to work seeing as being jew is not a mental illness, while being autistic definetly is but to me it seems like some nasty passive agressiveness on work.

      But, what do i know? Probably just a mistake on your wording.

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    • I don't think that I have been inconsiderate. I am just trying to find a solution that is simultaneously accurate and inoffensive.

      Also, it is ironic that you consider certain groups worthy of consideration for their condition, but not others in the slightest.

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    • Also, autism is a mental neurodivergence or handicap, not a mental illness. That said, I did use to be mentally ill (psychotic paranoia) several years ago, but gradually managed to recover due to lots of hard work.

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    • He's saying that because he's autistic he's fixating on this minor thing yes?

      Well sorry but that's not an excuse, it wasn't a problem until he made it and him being autistic is honestly rather irrelavant.

      And yes it sounds low-key transphobic because even after being told by a trans woman who said she talked with other trans he's going basically "You see I'm autistic so we need to change this to be like that"

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    • Antvasima wrote: Also, it is ironic that you consider certain groups worthy of consideration for their condition, but not others in the slightest.

      If a trans person started saying the same stuff but just using them being trans instead I'd call them out too, also do we even list charcters as autistic if they're in canon?

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    • Guys, calm down, we're not gonna get anything done here by getting at each other's throats.

      I have a simpler solution for the notes thing: "For more information on Poison's gender, check her wikipedia page (And giving a link to it)". It has everything you need to know about the history behind Poison's gender. Or we could link to the SF wiki, which has the same stuff as the wikipedia article.

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    • For God's sake, I am consistently using preferred pronouns both about real people and fictional characters, I am never treating people badly because of their gender identities, and my godfather is homosexual, and we get along great. I am not remotely transphobic. I genuinely really am obsessed with factual accuracy, but still do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

      Given your outright hostility towards me in relation to my autism, there would be a much better case for me to claim that you are a bigot towards non-neurotypical people if I wanted to, but that would be a cheap shot to silence all polite discussion.

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    • Also, I do not mind at all if autistic characters here are listed as such. In fact, I would welcome it. I just do not know of almost any.

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    • KLOL506 wrote: Guys, calm down, we're not gonna get anything done here by getting at each other's throats.

      I have a simpler solution for the notes thing: "For more information on Poison's gender, check her wikipedia page (And giving a link to it)". It has everything you need to know about the history behind Poison's gender. Or we could link to the SF wiki, which has the same stuff as the wikipedia article.

      Well, a footnote would work in this case. I just want to know how we should handle describing trans characters in general in a non-offensive manner, as there are more of them than just Poison featured here.

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    • Well, this is all I can do to help.

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    • Antvasima wrote: For God's sake, I am consistently using preferred pronouns both about real people and fictional characters, I am never treating people badly because of their gender identities, and my godfather is homosexual, and we get along great. I am not remotely transphobic. I genuinely really am obsessed with factual accuracy, but still do not want to hurt anybody's feelings. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

      Given your outright hostility towards me in relation to my autism, there would be a much better case for me to claim that you are a bigot towards non-neurotypical people if I wanted to, but that would be a cheap shot to silence all polite discussion.

      No I don't have a problem with you being on the spectrum, I have a problem you mentioning it so many times trying to use it to justify certain actions

      I can't claim you're a full blown transphobe as I have no evidence of such, also I fail to see what your godfather being gay even proves

      Just please stop repeating the fact you're one and I'll be out of here

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    • How kind of you to not claim that I am a "full-blown" bigot, despite that I make a continuous effort to be considerate in this area. I greatly appreciate it.

      Anyway, sarcasm aside, this isn't about personal choice on my part. Being socially clueless, compulsively fixated on things for years, and extremely facts and details-oriented is how I fundamentally work mentally, and again, I do not get why these are even particularly bad things. What you are doing is like blaming a knife for not being a fork.

      Can we return to a polite discussion about how to find a non-offensive solution to this issue, and skip the recurring hostility please?

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    • Category: Autistic Characters

      "Guys, calm down, we're not gonna get anything done here by getting at each other's throats.

      I have a simpler solution for the notes thing: "For more information on Poison's gender, check her wikipedia page (And giving a link to it)". It has everything you need to know about the history behind Poison's gender. Or we could link to the SF wiki, which has the same stuff as the wikipedia article."

      This doesn't help. Most people who don't like Ant's idea of "biologically male, identifies as female" don't like it because it purposefully overcomplicates things when they believe trans women should be treated (and thought of) in the same way as biological women.

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    • I never claimed you being autistic is bad, please don't put words into my mouth

      All I'm saying that you keeping to say you're on the spectrum paints you in a very bad light considering the topic and looks like a deflection thus you need to stop unless you want to look worse from it

      And if you stop saying you're autistic sure

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    • Well, I am just trying to honestly explain why I think a certain way, but am met with hostility for it, which just comes across as weird to me.

      Again, I think that the entire point of this wiki is to strive for accuracy, and wonder how we can word this in a simultaneously accurate and inoffensive manner. That is all. For some reason I am repeatedly attacked with insults and false accusations because of this.

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    • Anyway I will say that most discussions end up devolving as soon as someone mentions "I'm autistic" as a reason for their actions while still supporting those actions.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I am just trying to honestly explain why I think a certain way, but am met with hostility for it, which just comes across as weird to me.

      Again, I think that the entire point of this wiki is to strive for accuracy, and wonder how we can word this in a simultaneously accurate and inoffensive manner. That is all. For some reason I am repeatedly attacked with insults and false accusations because of this.

      Accusations I can see but when have I insulted you?

      Also Ant if the only reason you said you were autistic is to explain why you think a certain way why mention it more then once? I hope you assume we can remeber a fact if it isn't constantly repeated at us

      Don't get me wrong, explaining why you're coming from a ceratain position is great since it allows people to come to a better understanding but the way you do it seems weird and like you're trying to dodge something with that

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    • @Tago

      No, I am saying that I think that accuracy is the entire point of this wiki, and that my extreme obsession with this is a large reason why it grew so prominent in the first place, so I do not see why this is a bad thing.

      I also tried to explain that from my perspective this is perfectly self-evident and natural, and I cannot truly understand people who do not share my passion for factual information.

      I also think that this difference of mental focus is commonly likely due to that I am autistic and they are not. I do not understand why anybody would get upset about this.

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    • @Tllmbrg

      1) You called me a transphobic bigot, even though I have never treated anybody badly because of this, don't want to cause any offense, and make an effort to use preferred pronouns.

      2) Because, due to previously living a very difficult life in some respects, that has been filled with constant miscommunications and misunderstandings, I have spent several years trying to figure out in what manners I do not function like normal people, so when strange and confusing social situations happen, I try to explain myself.

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Tllmbrg

      1) You called me a transphobic bigot, even though I have never treated anybody badly because of this, don't want to cause any offense, and make an effort to use preferred pronouns.

      I would like you to please quote where I have claimed you're a transphobe, not to mention I went out of my way to say I dont think you're one

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    • I feel you two should stop arguing about this as it'snot relevant to Poison herself. It's starting to clog the thread and make such a minute issue seem more than it really is.

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    • It shouldn't be a big issue, but since 1) You can't make the profile not controversial, since no matter what way you list it one side or the other will be pissed off 2) Amelia herself is trans, but Ant has... political views.



      Normally I would say that we just stop debating this, but no matter what we do to the profile, somene is going to be mad about it. I'm leaning towards Ant's side, but...



      Sigh

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    • @Tllmbrg

      You said that I am low-key transphobic, and that I am merely not a full-blown transphobe. I found this offensive and unnecessarily hostile.

      @Sera

      Agreed. However, I think that we have quite a lot of trans characters in this wiki, so I just want an acceptable solution for how to describe them in a non-offensive manner that preferably still mentions this fact to our visitors somehow.

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    • If it struck such a nerve I'll retract said statment

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    • Me and another trans friend came up with an idea. Instead of writing long-ish explanations we should just say Trans-Male or Trans-Female. Thus doesnt guve off the inpression of invakidating their identity, while still showing their biology and identity are not identical.

      Just a thought to put out there

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    • "Struck a nerve" is also unnecessarily hostile, but alright then.

      I would appreciate if you would stop butting in to attack me from out of nowhere. It isn't the first time that this happens.

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    • Yes, please stop this arguing Tllm. It's irrelevant and clogging up my notifications.

      I agreed with the idea Zouken proposed on Discord, it seems like the best compromise.

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    • @Zachary

      In this case it isn't a political issue, just me being characteristically anal-retentive.

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    • @Amelia

      It is best if you decide how we should handle this. What did Zouken suggest?

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    • Zouken's message was probably lost in the flood, but it was something she and another person came up with to just list them as Trans Female/Trans Male. Keeps it proper while noting their status, because weird biohax and seduction arguments came up.

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    • I gave my suggestion here too Ant, just say Trans-Male or Trans-Female. Thus not invalidating their identity, but still showing their biology and identity dont nessessarily line up.

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    • Sorry. I just saw Zouken's suggestion. That is perfectly acceptable.

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    • So is somebody willing to start to adjust all of our trans characters according to Zouken's suggestion, so our descriptions do not cause offense to anybody?

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    • Glad we could come to a conclusion :-)

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    • @Zouken

      Yes, me as well.

      You are all allowed to start searching for all of our trans characters, and update their profiles accordingly.

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    • "No, I am saying that I think that accuracy is the entire point of this wiki, and that my extreme obsession with this is a large reason why it grew so prominent in the first place, so I do not see why this is a bad thing."

      I probably should have made clear I was referring to what Tllmbrg might have been annoyed by, not what was objectively your intention. That said I'll go over every time you've mentioned your autism (before Tllm expressed his irratation) to assess this narrative.

      "My apologies if I caused offense. I am just obsessed with trying to provide as matter of fact and reliable information as possible to our visitors. It is a side-effect of being autistic." The apology seems to indicate that you are wrong, with this apparent fallacy on your part being the side for everything succeeding it. You don't say "despite this the striving to mention someone being trans is what we should actively pursue" you just seem to make an explanation for why *you* want to mention someone being trans (something you've seemingly already apologised for) while asking what would be "acceptable" to put down while also fitting what your "obsession" requires. 

      Again, you say "Well, I just want to be able to word it in a way that is simultaneously politically correct, and does not omit any important information." which doesn't clarify that your want to emit this information and not omit it is inherently a good thing (just something you have been obssessed about).

      And again, Amelia makes a point about it to which you don't refute but merely state "

      Well, as you probably know I am a compulsively obsessive perfectionist who wants every little detail of this wiki to be as accurate and reliable as possible, so I would prefer if we could include the information if characters are transexual females or males in some manner that does not cause offense.

      Could you please think about if there is some possible solution for this?" so you say that you have a disorder (while not refuting Amelia and therefore not showing you are right in this), being your "compulsively obsessive perfectionist tendencies" which leads you to want a certain thing and then ask Amelia "Could you please think about if there is some possible solution for this?".

      You continue by responding to the argument "I have put thought into this; not everything needs some eureka moment-type compromise. She is a female character, who was born male. At best, a small note (not the paragraph long one we have denoting this, I don't get why you're trying to make this into such an issue)" (which says that the clarification of one's biological sex is not what gender is and therefore if the goal in the "gender" section is to clarify gender one should not feel the need to make allusions to biological sex) by not responding to a single detail of the argument and continue to say

      "Well, as I mentioned, I am not neurotypical, and among other things this means that I am absolutely obsessed with accuracy in all details, and this perfectionism is actually one of the main reasons why this wiki grew so prominent in the first place, as it was a dumpster when I first came here.

      Small footnotes that mention this in some manner are acceptable to me, or we could simply state "Female, but was born male" in the gender sections, as you mentioned above, and otherwise use female pronouns. However, we need to define what should be said in the sections in question as a standard for all cases with transexual characters featured here."

      Of coure at least here you are *could be seen as* stating that you were right in your course for action (although you not making an argument as to why such a disorder is useful here sounds more along the lines of your previous arguments where you say "My disorder is an issue here", but also with the addition of "well it's usually useful so who cares) in whatever symptom of a handicap drives you to be so "obsessive" for neccessary "accuracy", but then if it isn't a problem why did you mention it before as a defence? Why not just make an argument and then if you feel the need to state that your ASD draws you to that argument or why from your perspective such a notion "is perfectly self-evident and natural". There was nothing provoking you to mention it and in all cases it appears to be used to blank out the opponent's argument (unless they get annoyed with you for this behaviour) or use it to say "I'm sorry I'm wrong but validate my erroneous course of action because I am autistic" . Either way it sounds like a deflection tactic.

      So yeah, "I am saying that I think that accuracy is the entire point of this wiki" is something you never said and generally your course of action was flawed. Not trying to accuse you of being any terrible things but I just want to justify Tllmbrg's (admittedly pretty rude) response.

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    • Okay. I suppose that I likely forgot to mention the main point of this wiki in this particular thread. My apologies.

      I have done so many times before though, so it isn't so easy to keep track of. Accuracy has always been my overall philosophy for this wiki in any case. That is constantly my main motivation when dealing with how it should be run properly.

      Anyway, Amelia doesn't want us to spam her message wall, and we have already reached a conclusion, so let's drop this issue please.

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    • Why did I make that post

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    • Okay. So what do we list for Poisons gender, since we don't know for certain? Since "Unknown biologiclaly, identifies as female" would be too offensive?

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    • Trans-Female, I think.

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    • No but isn't it technically unknown, too?

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    • No.

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    • @Amelia

      Would you be willing to search for and adjust the profiles of trans characters according to Zouken's suggestion?

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    • I know this is over so I'll make it quick.

      @Tllmbrg

      This isn't the first time I've noticed you coming in a thread and completely derailing it without contributing to the actual topic. And this time you came in with absolutely nothing to contribute and not even trying to find a solution, but only to attack Ant personally. While your point may have been correct to an extent, the way you went about delivering it was passive aggressive, if not outright hostile. Then you proceeded to add fuel to the fire you started in which was otherwise a rather peaceful and polite discussion. I would appreciate if you don't repeat this behavior in the future and make serious effort to shape up. Thank you.

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    • Okay

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Amelia

      Would you be willing to search for and adjust the profiles of trans characters according to Zouken's suggestion?

      Poison is the only trans character on the site I know that is confirmed and not hinted at. There are some strange examples in Digimon like Rosemon, Nanimon and Renamon, who have trans members of their species, but the species is typically dominated by mostly one gender, but I will keep a look out.

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    • Okay. Thank you. I recall that there are a few trans characters in One Piece and Bleach, and there should logically be many more in other fictions.

      You can start a project to ask the community for help with information if you wish.

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    • Here are the ones that I remember:

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Birdo

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Giselle_Gewelle

      There are also 3 One Piece characters that were introduced in the latest storyarc, but they do not have profile pages yet.

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    • I've been out all day and I didn't have time to check the discussion and reply, but I'm glad the this has been solved.

      I don't want to cause more trouble, but this might be the right moment to point this out.

      Seth (Street Fighter) ​​​​​​needs some clarification, but it's much more simpler than Poison.

      Basically, Seth is a biological AI that inhabited two different bodies. The first in SF4 had a male appearance and the second in SFV has a female one.

      However, Seth's gender is male, and this is shown in his story in SFV

      Juri is surprised when she discovered that Seth has a gender. In addition, Seth refers to himself as a king. Finally, the system voice tells that the integration of body and personality failed, and this broke his mind, driving him mad. Seth also retained his male voice, and this might be a further evidence.

      These are some useful screenshots from the story.

      In the end, Seth's gender is male, but his second body in SFV has a female appearance.

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    • I agree about Seth.

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    • I am fine with it as well.

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    • That seems safe, yeah. (From what little I know of Seth)

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    • Seth is basically a brain inside a robot meant to be a replacement body for Bison, therefore all the 26 models of him were made with a male appearance. After SF4, all the bodies were destroyed, Seth included, but Juri took the brain and implanted it inside the Doll Unit Zero, the only body remained, to use it as a weapon. In the story is also hinted that Juri's commissioner in SF5 was aware of that implanting his brain in a female body would have resulted in a malfunctioning, but Juri just didn't care. This is also why he shouldn't have Immortality type 6, because Seth didn't change body by himself.

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    • I'm going to edit Seth. Should I specify that his second body has a female appearance or can I just write "Male"? It is unknown is those bodies are fully artificial or partially biological, every source has always been vague about that, hinting both things without confirming anything, hence I don't know if biohaxes should be taken in account or not in this context.

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    • Yeah, specify there IMO.

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    • Ok. Should I write an explanation footnote? It would be way shorter than the one I wrote for Poison. 

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    • Amelia does not want us to spam her message wall.

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    • I apologize, I'll open a specific thread 

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    • No problem.

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    • Yeah, sorry Ammi.

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    • Anyway, an explanation footnote is probably fine, but we should stop talking here now.

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    • Okay. But content revision threads are not allowed right now, so it is probably best if you just add the footnote and wait with anything else until after the forum move.

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    • A FANDOM user
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