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  • Elizhaa
    Elizhaa closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    17:10, March 14, 2020

    This thread is about changing the regeneration of Van Hohenheim, Father (Fullmetal Alchemist) and Homunculus asides Wrath and Mannequins who can't regenerate from Full Metal Alchemist. Currently, regeneration is rated as Low-High; recently from going the regeneration feats none of the regeneration feats at Low-High so the regeneration rating should be changed. Lower regeneration like to Mid from Homunculus like Gluttony who can regenerate from attacks like in the scan here, here, and here. However, there are two regenerations cases that I will discuss here; one is at Mid-High and the other High-Mid. The characters that I mentioned should have their regeneration's scaled whatever to whatever is decided from Lust's since their regeneration is basically from the same method.

    Mid-High regeneration

    These are the scans that could show regeneration the High-Mid regeneration:

    Mustang says he knows when someone is incinerated and he's not someone who boasts about himself whose Statements should normally be Type 2 on the matter as war officers and expert on the explosion topic; there is "my lips are sticky from the fat" statement because her Lust's fat dispersed in the air. However, the major problem is that Mustang made a contradictory statement that said that Lust's corpse should be nearby which should not be a thing because incineration should destroy a body completely where a corpse should not remain. So, this statement can somewhat be seen as iffy unless we assume Mustang was talking about Lust's corpse regenerating.

    High-Mid

    For High-Mid regeneration, Lust regenerated from her philosopher stone here in these scans. There is this statement that the philosopher stone is her heart such as a core so it is part of her body so regeneration from this is High-Mid.

    Point of view

    I think regeneration should be downgraded to High-Mid since there are no other regeneration feats that I can remember higher and is the safer choice, in my view.

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    • High-Mid, the Stone survived.

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    • Seems legit.

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    • High-Mid seems best.

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    • So in case the stone is destroyed they stop regenerating back?

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    • I agree with the changes.

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    • Not a supporter on the series, but either way, the changes seem fine. 

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    • Agreed, the stone is around the size of a finger so that's be High-Mid.

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    • I agree.

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    • Hold up, I have a blog explaining this entire thing, High-Mid is objectively wrong. It's more akin to Masada's low godly regeneration that's based on the amount of stock piled souls.

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    • They can create brand new bodies from the Philosophers Stone right? Unless you destroy the Stone they will keep coming back.

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    • here


      Also I'm gonna point out the blatant lack of context given by the OP here.


      Mustang says he knows when someone is incinerated and he's not someone who boasts about himself whose Statements should normally be Type 2 on the matter as war officers and expert on the explosion topic; there is "my lips are sticky from the fat" statement because her Lust's fat dispersed in the air. However, the major problem is that Mustang made a contradictory statement that said that Lust's corpse should be nearby which should not be a thing because incineration should destroy a body completely where a corpse should not remain. So, this statement can somewhat be seen as iffy unless we assume Mustang was talking about Lust's corpse regenerating.


      Again this lacks context as to what's happening. The statement is contradicted in any sense, if you bothered paying attention Roy states to Havoc seconds later not to underestimate her regenerative capabilities. Why would Roy Mustang, who's more than experienced when it comes to vaporizing people with Flame Alchemy be off with his statement? He even feels the fat on his lips, and even tells Havoc not to underestimate her regen, meaning she regenerated from the being vaporized. It's relatively straightforward especially since Envy could later do the same thing.



      Also why are you taking Lust referring to her heart as her actual heart? That logic is blatantly false, especially taking the " around the word heart. The regeneration of a Homunculi isn't based on the amount of damage done to them, they regenerate from the amount of Souls the Stone has, regenerating from being blown to bits, vaporized, Deconstructed or making new bodies from the Stone's soul Stock Pile. Homunculi should have Limited Low-Godly regeneration that's based on the amount of souls the Stone has within it.

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    • EmperorRorepme wrote: They can create brand new bodies from the Philosophers Stone right? Unless you destroy the Stone they will keep coming back.


      More or less, the Stone isn't something that can be broken with pure AP either, it's unbreakable as long as it has enough Souls to sustain itself. It acts as the core of the Homunculi, it's very essence. Not as the literal heart of the Homunculi, Homunculi has normal functioning hearts as well.

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    • Yeah, this is like the gems situation. High-Mid is good.

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    • Ogbunabali wrote: Yeah, this is like the gems situation. High-Mid is good.


      It's absolutely nothing like the Gem situation, the mechanics are entirely different. Several characters are outright vaporized and regenerate and said regeneration is based on regenerating from a massive stock pile of souls.


      And there is no such thing as a "safe choice." whenever said safer choice is seriously lacking context and leaving out bits of information to make it seem like it's a statement of Contradictory. Roy even directly states they can't underestimate her regenerative capabilities after stating that she's been vaporized and felt her fat on his lips. Also the Stone isn't even a solid stone, it's can be a liquid to just about any substance really. It's also pretty funny that Homunculi are also technically souls, just pushed into a sack of flesh, as seen with Greed and Ling. The Stone is what gives them type 8, Homunculi regenerate from the stock pile of souls from within said stone. Hence why it should be "limited Low-Godly regeneration" due to being soul based regen.

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    • I agree with Prince. The regeneration is based on the souls in the stone, not the literal stone itself. As long as there are souls, the stone will remain, and the body will continuously regenerate.

      The stone ONLY vanishes once the pool of souls within it has been expended--hence why Lust could not regenerate forever and died before striking Mustang, and Envy was reduced to a miserable form on two occasions and left at a near-death state until absorbing more souls. Same applies to literally every other case of a Homunculus dying.

      It's definitely Low-Godly, but requires an outside source via souls from other living things, therefore it's limited.

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    • I agree with Prince and Cin. As long as their essence is linked to their stone, they will continue to be recreated. It's qualified by needing a stone that has a stock of soul energy though. Envy on his last life wouldn't have such regeneration for instance. I'm pretty sure King Bradley / Wrath was made from a one-soul stone as well. Do we know if he has any feats of regen? [Note that my knowledge of the verse comes from the Anime and I'm unsure if it's different from the Manga].

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    • Bradley killed all of the souls in his stone, only one was left in the stone afterwards. It's unknown if it's his original soul or not but that's what makes Bradley different from the other Homunculi.

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    • After reading this thread, I am uncertain in either direction. My apologies.

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    • Since they can create bodies from scratch with the stone and Mustangs statement seems more credible. I agree with Prince.

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    • I will be busy in life soon so I aim to reply to the new Low-Godly's points later.

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    • I did see some good points from Prince and Cin, but going to lean towards the OP for now.

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    • I’m neutral for the time being, gonna have to wait for more points on either side to take a side since both seems to have valid arguments.

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    • Ok, here is my reply:

      Based on the definition of Low-Godly regeneration, regeneration from the philosopher stone would not be Low-Godly.

      • Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

      Inceration is not complete physical destruction because the ashes, molecules, atom, and energy of the target remained so the regeneration would not be Low-Godly, from this point. Even if characters can regenerate from soul(s), it does not mean their regeneration is Low-Godly especially when the regeneration does not follow the Low-Godly definition. I think Promestein made great points here why the regeneration would not be Low-Godly from the philosopher stone.

      In short, the primary reason why they would not get Low-godly is that the affected characters don't show nor have supporting statements or evidence that they have the ability to regenerate from the "Complete physical destruction of their body". Complete physical destruction of the body would mean all molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles were destroyed.

      From the High-Mid regeneration viewpoint, I do agree that philosopher stones would not break unless they run of souls that are used up from regeneration; however, even Envy in his weakest state could break the philosopher stone when a philosopher stone ran out of enough soul. Note, Envy died after he broke his philosopher stone which supports the argument from High-Mid regarding the philosopher stone as the stone being part of their body as a core. So, overall, regeneration shouldn't be Low-Godly. Apologies, I believe a lot of people know caveats of these characters' regeneration before.

      Here is something new; it is on the Low-High Regeneration. The philosopher stone can change it states a liquid (here and here) depending on its container; the scans were brought forth by The Prince of Counters. So, based on the evidence on the liquid stated of the philosopher stone, Low-High regeneration still valid since the affected characters can regenerate from their philosopher stones. Envy's death after breaking the philosopher stone could be a major contradiction. However, I think Envy should not have died from broking a philosopher stone since it is like a liquid, also; on that event, Envy should have died if the liquid was evaporated on something like that.I think Envy's death was Plot-Induced Stupidity.

      I believe some profiles like Father (Fullmetal Alchemist)'s mentioned that "regeneration drained souls" as weakness so I think it best if added to those other affected profiles that I mentioned in the OP that would be affected; it also works as a better explanation than "Weaknesses: If he/she is killed enough times, she/he'll run out of lives." on some of those profiles. From discussion on with The Prince of Counters on my message wall, we think these texts would be appropriate for the weakness to all the affected profiles:

      • If killed enough times The Homunculi will lose all it's souls and will lose its ability to regenerate.

      I think of adding these options:

      • Regeneration (High-Mid; reliant on the philosopher stone. The philosopher stone has show to not be destroyed by from comparable or higher attack potency to the user unless it runs out of souls used from regeneration. Regeneration will not happen if the amount of soul from the philosopher stone is low, also.)

      Assuming Low-High regeneration is fine, I think this text works:

      • Regeneration (Low-High; reliant on the philosopher stone which is an exotic matter that can take the form of a solid or liquid. The philosopher stone has show to not be destroyed by from comparable or higher attack potency to the user unless it runs out of souls used from regeneration. Regeneration will not happen if the amount of soul from the philosopher stone is low, also.)

      I will say souls can be obtained from soul absorption/absorption which can negate their regeneration caveats like from what Envy, Pride and Father (Fullmetal Alchemist) can do. So, for Envy, Pride and Father (Fullmetal Alchemist), this option could for as an addition to their Weakness description:

      • Could use absorption to bypass the regeneration weakness on the lack of souls.

      Edit: the regeneration's description to be more accurate.

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    • I agree with Elizhaa.

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    • Don't be so quick, I'd rather not have Staff bum rush and side with Elizhaa while I'm in the middle of typing a rebuttal.

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    • The simple fact of the matter is that the body WILL return so long as there are souls within the Philosopher Stone--so in fact, this actually proves that it is Low-Godly.

      Just because we've only seen them incinerated does not debunk the clear fact that their body returns to normal due to the souls--even if they theoretically were to be completely erased (minus the souls in the stone--which the stone is literally made from human souls).

      Again, Low-Godly says this: "The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else".

      • They are restoring their bodies from the actual souls--NOT their body parts, and it only stops when the souls run out--ultimately causing them to lose their regenerative powers and simultaneously destroy the stone.
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    • Their regen seems pretty identical to the Apostles in Dies irae and they've got low-godly for pretty much the same reason. Don't really see any issue about it. Prince's argument sounds pretty solid

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    • The only thing I'll agree on is that Envy's death was inconsistent, as Envy as a whole was very different than the Other Homunculi. I'll go over the points with Eliza here now. I also don't appreciate you linking Prom's comments despite her not having any clue as to what she's talking about regarding Fullmetal Alchemist.



      Low-Godly

      Inceration is not complete physical destruction because the ashes, molecules, atom, and energy of the target remained so the regeneration would not be Low-Godly, from this point. Even if characters can regenerate from soul(s), it does not mean their regeneration is Low-Godly especially when the regeneration does not follow the Low-Godly definition. I think Promestein made great points here why the regeneration would not be Low-Godly from the philosopher stone.

      In short, the primary reason why they would not get Low-godly is that the affected characters don't show nor have supporting statements or evidence that they have the ability to regenerate from the "Complete physical destruction of their body". Complete physical destruction of the body would mean all molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles were destroyed.



      Let me start out with covering the argument's presented against Low-Godly, which aren't even points since i didn't use anything the OP used as a counterargument for my arguments for Low-Godly. First I've never said Lust would have Low-Godly regeneration through her incineration feat, but her body recreation feat should be considered since she regenerated from essentially what is a massive amalgamation of Souls.



      The reason why Homunculi as a whole ( Excluding Wrath ) should have Low-Godly regeneration. I literally explained all of this in my blog regarding the Stone itself but I'll briefly skim over what the Philosopher Stone is and what it does exactly.



      The Philosopher Stone is created by sacrificing a multitude of Human Souls, usually dozens, to hundreds, to thousands, to millions of Souls ( with Homunculi typically speaking having hundreds, Father has half a million and access to 50 Million in his later form. ) This Stone goes by many names, so it's not valid to actually consider it a real "stone", it's known as the Grand Elixir, the Sages Star, the Fifth Element, it goes by many names. When a human-like creature is made with this, what we call a Homunculi is made. Homunculi are resistant to most forms of poisons, toxins, venoms, etc but most importantly Homunculi are creatures that are virtually immortal. Typically speaking a Homunculi can regenerate using their massive Stock Pile of Souls, regenerating and Resurrecting as long as they need if they have Souls to regenerate from. The damage in question has gone from being decapitated, blown to chunks, having the insides Deconstruction on a Sub-Atomic level, being vaporized and most impressive creating a new body entirely using the Stone. The is regeneration that's reliant on the amounts souls one has, it's what they regenerate from, and it's even their being, as Homunculi truly exist as Souls.



      Homunculi will continue to indefinitely regenerate and resurrect as long as they have enough Souls in them, this is shown every time a Homunculi is killed, with Envy being able to absorb more Soul to regenerate from and the reason why Wrath is unable to regenerate. ( Wrath was originally able to regenerate, but he killed all the Souls within him, which is why he's unable to regenerate. ) the argument that being made against Low-Godly at the moment is simply one that exploits The Stone being well, a stone ( which it really isn't the substance of the actual thing itself is unknown but all a Philosopher's Stone really is a bunch of Souls. ) The Stone can also be considered the Soul itself as seen with Edward using his own soul to heal himself as if he were transmuting the Stone. Greed and the other Homunculi also exists are Souls as well. I'll note that Edo-Tensei have Low-Godly regeneration for an even lesser reason and even characters from Dies Irae have Low-Godly regeneration the same reason, and way Homunculi regenerate is exactly the same. Hell, Greed can still even stay alive as just a soul after he had his stone depleted by Wrath and Father, just incapacitated for not having a human body to hijack and the fact that he was in Father.



      Low-High

      This is actually what the regeneration is at the bare minimum so this'll have to replace what you have in the OP since High-Mid is no longer valid, which also means that i don't need to cover this much. This also automatically renders the notion of High-Mid null.


      Weaknesses rewording and additions for Homunculi

      This is perhaps the Easiest, you don't need to do much here. It's simple, every Homunculi barring Wrath would get Absorption added to their profiles for being able to absorb souls from an outside source to increase their stock pile of souls.


      The weaknesses would look like this Will run out of souls to regenerate from if killed enough times, resulting the Homunculi to revert to another form or turn into dust, killing them for good. Although this is somewhat circumvented by Homunculi being able to absorb souls to add to their stone.



      Conclusion

      We have a few options to go with here, 3 in particular. The first option is what i believe is the most accurate here, since there are various statements, feats and well the narrative of the plot of the series itself supports. Personally speaking i think Option 1 & 2 are the best since those are the most factual correct conclusions and are backed up by the context and narrative of this story. The con side is also arguing the amount of damage is something to consider, which it isn't. The regeneration isn't based on the extent of damage it can heal from, it regenerating from everything in general as long as the Stone has Souls.


      Option 1: "Limited Low-Godly regeneration" ( for reasons I've already stated. )


      Option 2: "At Least Mid-High, possibly Low-Godly"


      Option 3: "At Least Low-High, possibly Mid-High"

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    • @Prince - I agree with almost everything said, and I already threw in my opinion. I am however in disagreement with you suggesting Envy's death was "inconsistent".

      To touch on the "unique cases":

      People bring up Wrath and Envy, but:

      • Wrath is explained IN-MANGA/ANIME multiple times to have killed off every other soul in the stone before he became who he was (as a Homunculi). Therefore regeneration simply was not an option, and his body aged unlike the others because there was only a single soul within the stone. No more.
      • As for Envy, he was in his weakened state. He could not regenerate anymore, and was on the verge of death due to losing all of the souls in his stone from Mustang's constant explosions destroying his body over and over while constantly regenerating. The stone was crushed by a weak Envy simply because it was already powerless, barely sustaining Envy (He was stated to die VERY soon anyways).
        • Envy could not regenerate anymore, removed the stone from his body, and then destroyed it, as it had no souls to regen Envy further. The stones simply vanish after the pool of souls are used up. Envy's death meets this condition.

      Both cases are clearly not outliers, but explained in-lore. Why people don't get that is beyond me.

      I'm for Option 1 completely.

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    • He kinda already mentioned about Bradley killing all his soul beforehand. It's only Envy's case where he said it's likely attributed to inconsistency

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    • I know, but people will still bring it up again despite the fact that he was entirely different from the rest.

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    • I agree with Elizhaa. My apologies. Even though they regenerate from the energy of souls, they are still dependent on the stones to do so. It the stones are broken by a superior power, the homunculi wouldn't be able to recover.

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    • Which is a ridiculous and asinine notion, The Complete Stone can't be destroyed by AP, which is why he's arguing Low-High rather than Low-Godly since he believes the Stone is something that can be broken with attack, which it can't. It can only be broken if the Stone is actually depleted, which is what the Homunculi regenerate from. Low-High comes from the assumption that you can break, which it isn't. The Stone will continue to regenerate endlessly as long as it has power, and won't be destroyed until that point.



      Homunculi are dependent on the souls inside the Stone, not the actual stone itself. Which A isn't actually a stone and B is useless without direct access of a stock pile of souls.

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    • Saying it can't be destroyed by AP means it has infinite durability which isn't happening.

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    • TheRustyOne wrote: Saying it can't be destroyed by AP means it has infinite durability which is not happening.


      Classic Strawman Fallacy, The Stone not being able to be destroyed through physical means doesn't equate into it have infinite durability, because durability is meaningless to The Stone. The Con arguements stem from the Stone itself not being immaterial, which for one isn't needed for Low-Godly, secondly the Stone itself isn't what Homunculi are dependent on, they're dependent on the Souls and in fact exist as souls. The Stone isn't what's needed to regenerate from, it's the souls that's what needed to regenerate from.

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    • I don't understand what your saying and I'm not being sarcastic I'm genuinely confused.

      Note that I agree with Elizhaa right now.

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    • Why are you confused exactly? The reply was pretty straightforward foward.


      Right now, Elizhaa is under the assumption that the physical state of the Stone is what matters for the Homunculi to regenerate from. Which sounds nice on paper but that's misconstruing on how things works.


      The Physical State of the Stone is irrelevant for what the Homunculi regenerate from. The Stone itself as in the substance that's used to house the souls isn't what Homunculi are reliant on, which is what the OP and his supporters are arguing.


      The Homunculi are in fact dependent on the amount of souls, not the substance itself. As long as the souls exist then the Homunculi in question will continue to regenerate, they are reliant on the souls, not the substance of the Stone otherwise they'd be fine with the physical state of the stone being in tact despite the souls being depleted, it's actually the other way around. Homunculi will only die if the stock pile of souls is either

      1: The Soul Stock pile is depleted

      2: The Souls are absorbed along with the Homunculi


      Hell, the fact that Greed came back without permanently dying after his enitre being being melted and then absorbed by Father should be more than proof enough that the substance of the Philosopher's Stone is irrelevant.

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    • The stone being a liquid just means Low-High right?

      "The Physical State of the Stone is irrelevant for what the Homunculi regenerate from."

      I don't remember that being stated, you got any scans? Since I'm sure if all of the stone's atoms were erased it'd stop working. Going be honest I can't follow this, I'm going wait for Elizhaa.

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    • TheRustyOne wrote:
      Saying it can't be destroyed by AP means it has infinite durability which isn't happening.

      I admit I could be wrong on the AP's point; I am fine to change the text says the stone to limit NLF on durability; it is just the philsopher stone never really show to be have broken by comparable or way superior Attack Potency like Envy vs Roy Mustang's case except when in the case, it is low on souls or run out of souls.

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    • Okay I don't know what anyone is talking about anymore. 

      Maybe I'm tired or something, I'm going unfollow this.

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    • TheRustyOne wrote:
      The stone being a liquid just means Low-High right?

      "The Physical State of the Stone is irrelevant for what the Homunculi regenerate from."

      I don't remember that being stated, you got any scans? Since I'm sure if all of the stone's atoms were erased it'd stop working. Going be honest I can't follow this, I'm going wait for Elizhaa.

      "The Physical State of the Stone is irrelevant for what the Homunculi regenerate from."

      > It was never stated from I saw; I had statements and feats from inputs on the regeneration from the others nothing came close to validating this point of view.

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    • See, Elizhaa gets what I'm trying to say, also congrats on the green name.

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    • The narrative and the context of the story really, the enitre point of Philosopher's Stone's are that they function and survive off of the tempest storm of souls. Homunculi aren't regenerating from the physical substance of the stone itself, they regenerate from the souls within the Stone, they are reliant on the soul not the substance the stone is made of.


      Father in his evolved form is also proof of this, as in that form he exists as nothing but a mass of shadowy substance with the physical stone being shown nowhere inside him, it's the same reason why Hohenheim doesn't regenerate from a physical stone either. Wrath's entire backstory also furthers this, he cannot regenerate anymore due to him, or one of the souls killing off the other souls, leaving only one. Homunculi regenerate directly from souls, not the substance of the stone itself.

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    • Wait I just rememer something, give me a second to check.

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    • Opps never mind, it was an anime only scene I guess.

      Either way I don't agree with Low-Godly but I understand your point now. But the souls are the substance of the stone, they don't add anything besides souls when making a stone. When we're shown the creation of a stone it just appears in mid-air. I thought the stone itself is the physical form of those souls, and it being destroyed means that there aren't anymore souls left.

      If the substance of the stone is irrelevant than why does it exist in the first place?

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    • It being destroyed only occurs when the Stone is depleted of it's souls, simply destroying it doesn't destroy all of the souls inside it. Since why Hohenheim needed to go about outright ripping the 50 Million+ Souls from Father as opposed to simply going for the Stone itself.



      The Physical Substance, I.E it's psychical form has nothing to do with it's regeneration, when it comes to the regeneration and reliance the Psychical substance is made irrelevant since Homunculi regenerate directly using the souls from within the stone. It's why Edward outright ignores going for the Stone itself against Pride, but rather invading the plethora of Pride's souls with his own soul, to destroy Pride from within.



      I think a good compromise here is my suggestion of option 2. "At Least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly"

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    • I don't think Low-Godly would be valid even from a compromise but I will ask others inputs on the matters soon.

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    • I thought Hohenheim and Father don't have stones inside of them, not only that but their regeneration should be superior to the Homunculi. Also Edward didn't want to kill Pride, destroying the stone would've killed him. (Though I highly doubt Edward could even destroy the stone)

      If the stone is destroyed when all of the souls are gone, than shouldn't the reverse be true? Unless it's shown or stated to be otherwise. Regenerating by using the souls inside of the stones doesn't equal Low-Godly regeneration, they need the souls inside of the stone to work. If the souls weren't inside of the stone than they wouldn't be able to regenerate.

      I think the stone is what keeps the souls in this world, it stops them from disappearing. So if the stone was destroyed all of the souls would disappear, meaning the Homunculi would die. Greed's stone was melted, it wasn't destroyed at the atomic level, Father just put it inside of him.

      Unless it can be proven that destroying the stone wouldn't kill them, I don't see how it can be Low-Godly.

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    • I think the simple point here is, unless it can be proven that they can regenerate when the stone is completely erased, than they aren't getting Low-Godly. It doesn't matter what powers the stone, the stone is a physical thing that exist. Whether it be a solid, lquid, or gas. Even if it was just plain energy it wouldn't be Low-Godly.

      Even if it can't be destroy with AP, it still isn't Low-Godly regen.

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    • I've already stated by the Stone can't be destroyed by means of sheer AP as long as the stone has souls within it. Doctor Marcoh is the only person who knows how to properly destroy the Stone, and that was by attacking and destroying the souls inside of the Stone, barring Envy's actual soul. He can create souls but he can also destroy them, as per his own words. Also Edward had direct access to the man's research I'm sure he knows how to destroy given he knows how to create stones, knows how to manipulate them and knows how to manipulate souls themselves. Father's regeneration is indeed superior to his children's regeneration, which is why it's the most valid for him at the very least, even at the end he didn't die, he was just taken away by Truth. If i recall correctly the OBD also gave Father high regeneration for this reason.



      If the stone is destroyed when all of the souls are gone, than shouldn't the reverse be true? Unless it's shown or stated to be otherwise. Regenerating by using the souls inside of the stones doesn't equal Low-Godly regeneration, they need the souls inside of the stone to work. If the souls weren't inside of the stone than they wouldn't be able to regenerate.


      No, the former is actually directly stated and shown while the latter is not. Your also the one making the claim that if the Stone itself is destroyed it also empties the soul stock pile, which is never stated let alone implied, so you'll need to provide citation for such a claim. And we already know that, if the souls are depleted then the Homunculi cannot regenerate.



      The Stone isn't what keeps them in this world, it's the amount of souls within said stone that keeps them alive and active. The Stone hasn't been shown to empty itself of stones if it's destroyed, that's something you'll need to provide proper scans and citation for since that's never implied to be the case. Greed's stone was melted and absorbed by Father, he took Greed's soul back. Greed actually exists as nothing but a soul, as do other Homunculi and have shown the ability to absorb others and even take them over. ( Greed taking Ling over. ) point is, his soul is still in contact so he can still regenerate and make a new body.




      You'll have to prove that the stone can be destroyed through physical means and doing so empties the souls, because that's never stated. You made the claim as you'll have to prove said claim.


      At the very least Father should have Low-Godly for having soul based regeneration that isn't reliant on the stone itself. Also it being enegry is a valid reason for Low-Godly, several characters have High to Low-Godly for regenerating from energy.

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    • No I didn't.

      I'm not making the claim here you are. I gave an opinion which I didn't state as a fact. I even said that I think, not that it was factual. That wasn't my point there, in fact you ignored my point.

      I don't care what the stone is or isn't, unless it's been shown that they can regenerate when it's erased than they don't get Low-Godly. You are claiming that the stone can't be destroy when that's never stated. Them regenerating from the souls is irrelevant since the souls are inside of the stone.

      Unless you can prove that they can regenerate even if the stone was destroy than this conversation is pointless.

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    • If the stone is destroyed when all of the souls are gone, than shouldn't the reverse be true? Unless it's shown or stated to be otherwise. Regenerating by using the souls inside of the stones doesn't equal Low-Godly regeneration, they need the souls inside of the stone to work. If the souls weren't inside of the stone than they wouldn't be able to regenerate.


      This was your comment, you didn't say you think or anything. I however did provide various scans and citations for my claims in this thread and on my blog.


      Most characters in DI have Low-Godly regeneration for the same reason, because what they regenerate from is souls I've argued for the entire thread you have a complete and total misunderstanding of how the Stone works. They are not reliant on the vessel, they are reliant on the souls themselves. Which would indeed be low-godly.



      I used no assumptions nor am i speculating, everything I've claimed is fact and I've provided scans. That's far from the usage of assumptions and speculation.

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    • I agree with prince here FRA

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    • Wait, I just notice your blog I need to read it.

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    • TheRustyOne wrote: Wait, I just notice your blog I need to read it.


      Take your time mate!


      Also my blog is easier on the eyes than Elizhaa and as we known looks is everything-

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    • Wait your scans are giving me a 404 error.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:

      Also my blog is easier on the eyes than Elizhaa and as we known looks is everything-

      Pardon me? What does that mean, am I missing something?

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    • Prince's blog is pretty convincing.

      Having taken place in the former CRTs Prince has done for the series and being a pretty avid fan, I cant disagree with Prince's interp. The Homunculi directly use souls from a Philosphers Stone to regenerate. The Stones utilize souls for their power source. Once the souls are depleted they die.

      If anything I would argue for a situational Low Godly compromise here: its Low Godly regen but uas a limit

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    • TheRustyOne wrote: Wait your scans are giving me a 404 error.


      The site i used them from is currently down at the moment, so I'll have to wait till it gets fixed before fixing it.


      Also the last part of my comment was a joke, figured you'd be able to catch on due to the - at the end of the comment.

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    • It's definitely soul-based regeneration. The stone has only ever been broken once the souls are depleted. I'm with Prince.

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    • Yeah I still agree with Prince.

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    • Looking through your blog, I notice you scan for sub-atomic destruction isn't sub-atomic destruction. Subatomic Destruction: It describes the energy necessary to destroy all of the atoms in a substance, by separating the particles in their nucleus.

      If Glunttony regenerating from Subatomic destruction than he would've disappeared from sight. I still disagree, nothing you said convince me. Until I see a scan or statement that says they can regenerate if the stone is destroyed. The stone can't be destroyed doesn't equal Low-Godly, just means infinite durability or that it's intangible which isn't the case.

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    • Scar's Alchemy is Deconstruction, it destroys the atoms of everything it touches. Scar Deconstructed Gluttony's insides which would also mean he Deconstructed the stone within Gluttony. I.E the stone has feats of being in tact while being deconstructed.


      Gluttony regenerated having his insides deconstructed which would also include the Stone being deconstructed since it's inside Gluttony. The Stone not being able to be destroyed isn't what would give them low-Godly, Low-Godly comes from them regenerating from souls. The physical state of the Homunculi isn't relevant as long as the stone still has souls in them, that's the only way they'll permanently die.

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    • Proof that all of his insides were deconstruction along with the stone? Scar can clearly control how much he destroys and he's very inconsistent. Also you do know that him destroying some atoms doesn't equal Glunttony regenerating from subatomic destruction?

      I've made my point and I completely disagree, sorry but you don't have any proof. They'll only get Low-Godly if they can regenerate when the stone is completely erased, which you haven't proved. Nothing you say that doesn't prove that matters.

      "Even though they regenerate from the energy of souls, they are still dependent on the stones to do so. It the stones are broken by a superior power, the homunculi wouldn't be able to recover."

      You haven't disproven this, you've only given me words that mean nothing without scans. I'm done here, I'll let everyone else decide this.

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    • I never said he was fully deconstructed, you guys brought up the stone and I brought up Scar demonstrating it along with Gluttony's insides. I don't need to prove that all his insides were deconstructed, that's what Scar's Alchemy does. Atomic destruction, he deconstructs whatever he wishes and in this case it was Gluttony's insides, I also don't see how Scar's Deconstruction is inconsistent. It's pretty consistent in the way it works.


      I've posted all the proof i need and several useds agree with me on the Low-Godly regeneration. For the last time, the physical state of the stone isn't what matters, it's the amount of souls it contains.



      "Even though they regenerate from the energy of souls, they are still dependent on the stones to do so. It the stones are broken by a superior power, the homunculi wouldn't be able to recover."


      The Stone's don't have a set durability and they've never been broken through sheer AP before while powered. Homunculi are reliant on the souls, not the stone itself which is what your side is arguing. If it was based solely on the stone then the regeneration of Homunculi would be fucked up, they'd be regenerating from a chunk with the stone inside and they'd regenerate from that. Gluttony after having his insides blown to bits was able to regenerate from the lower half of his body as opposed to regenerating from the chunk of meat that had the stone inside it.



      I don't need to disprove it, it's a notion that's heavily misconstrued that the stone can be broken, thus instantly killing the Homunculi. The only way to beat the regeneration is either through absorption and depleting the stone of it's soul, since at that point it's just a stone. If it were that easy then Hohenheim would have gone to destroy the stone in Father, instead he manipulated the souls to attack Father and tear his Container into shreds, which Father still survived. I also agree that we should let everyone else decide at this point.

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    • I think Limited Low Godly makes sense.

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    • Agree with Prince here.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I agree with Elizhaa. My apologies. Even though they regenerate from the energy of souls, they are still dependent on the stones to do so. It the stones are broken by a superior power, the homunculi wouldn't be able to recover.

      I agree with this.

      High-Mid regeneration would be the best value for them to be rated as.

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    • M3X

      I also agree with Prince

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      Antvasima wrote:
      I agree with Elizhaa. My apologies. Even though they regenerate from the energy of souls, they are still dependent on the stones to do so. It the stones are broken by a superior power, the homunculi wouldn't be able to recover.
      I agree with this.

      High-Mid regeneration would be the best value for them to be rated as.

      The stones have never been broken unless they've been depleted. Still going with Prince.

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    • @Damage


      The absolute worst they'd have is Low-High, High-Mid actually needs to be removed due to a misconception.

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    • The stones never being broken by anyone doesn't mean it wouldn't matter if they were broken. Durability feat at best.

      I agree with Elizhaa and made my argument on a wall somewhere already. Low-High.

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    • I’m more inclined to go with Low High, possibly Low Godly.

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    • I think High-Mid or Low High both sound great either way.

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    • I agree with Elizhaa and TheRustyOne

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    • Promestein wrote: The stones never being broken by anyone doesn't mean it wouldn't matter if they were broken. Durability feat at best.

      I agree with Elizhaa and made my argument on a wall somewhere already. Low-High.



      And I've explained this to you on the wall several times. Your wrong and are leaving important bits of information out of this. There are no durability feats, that stone isn't something that can be broken with sheer AP untill it's depleted of souls. This is shown several times throughout the series and it's also why literally none of the State Alchemists attack the stone instead of attacking the Homunculi directly.



      I'll settle for "Low-High, possibly Low-Godly" since that seems to be the conclusion that most users here agree with.

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    • You do know that like 2 dudes in the entire State Alchemists are aware of the stones inside the Homunculi right? Everyone else had like no idea they’re regenerating off of their stones.

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    • The stones wouldn't exist at all if not for the souls. They're litterally the physical form given to transmuted human souls. So long as there are excess souls linked to the stones, the Homunculi (aka the soul in charge of that particular collection of souls) have Low-Godly Regen. When the souls are depleted to one (Wrath, Envy at the time of his death), they have no regen.

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    • There isn't enough evidence to suggest the stones are immune to conventional AP.

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    • @Glass


      Not Necessarily, Roy figured that out pretty early on into the series after killing Lust. And he told the other notable State Alchemists about it.

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    • Damage3245 wrote: There isn't enough evidence to suggest the stones are immune to conventional AP.


      Aside from the fact that durability of the stone is irrelevant to the regeneration of the Homunculi? As long as the stone still has souls they'll regenerate.

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    • Did he? I don’t recall a scene of him telling the others about the stone.

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    • Theglassman12 wrote: Did he? I don’t recall a scene of him telling the others about the stone.


      He told the others about Homunculi what they are, Bradley himself also knew of the Stone and went for calculated attacks with the least amount of physical damage to burn through the Stone. Roy also later fights Envy and outright ignores going for the stone.

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    • I would say that even though their regeneration is fuelled by the stones they are not purely regenerating themselves from a soul without physical form. So Low-Godly does not seem accurate.

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    • >Roy also later fights Envy and outright ignores going for the stone.

      It's fair to point out that he was bloodlusted, he wanted envy to suffer as much as possible

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    • Damage3245 wrote: I would say that even though their regeneration is fuelled by the stones they are not purely regenerating themselves from a soul without physical form. So Low-Godly does not seem accurate.



      No Damage, that's lacking context. They regenerate from the souls in the Stone and from their own soul. Their regeneration isn't based on the stone, it's based on the stock pile of Souls.

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    • I agree with Elizhaa, but do not know if Low-High or High-Mid would be better from memory.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I agree with Elizhaa, but do not know if Low-High or High-Mid would be better from memory.


      Elizhaa is wrong in regards to High-Mid, they goes against what the stone is made of. I'd personally go for a mid ground by listing it as "At least low-High, possibly Low-Godly" since thats the part the majority agrees with.

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    • CinCameron20 wrote: I agree with Prince. The regeneration is based on the souls in the stone, not the literal stone itself. As long as there are souls, the stone will remain, and the body will continuously regenerate.

      The stone ONLY vanishes once the pool of souls within it has been expended--hence why Lust could not regenerate forever and died before striking Mustang, and Envy was reduced to a miserable form on two occasions and left at a near-death state until absorbing more souls. Same applies to literally every other case of a Homunculus dying.

      It's definitely Low-Godly, but requires an outside source via souls from other living things, therefore it's limited.

      This is Low-Godly as it's based on the soul pool. You need to destroy the souls to stop it from regenerating, the definition of Low-Godly.

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    • Low Godly regeneration applies if absolutely no physical remains exist, the stones are a physical object even if just a piece of it.

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    • The stone is immaterial to the function of the regeneration. It's the well of souls that is responsible for the regeneration.

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    • ChemistKyle89 wrote:
      The stone is immaterial to the function of the regeneration. It's the well of souls that is responsible for the regeneration.

      It still would not make the regeneration Low-Godly for the reason that Medeus just recently explained.

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    • The Stone is quite literally an amalgamation of souls, it's the essence of various souls of humans and such. That seems like pretty evident Low-Godly regen, just limited in nature due to it's mechanics. Once again I'll offer option two to appease both sided and given that we've been arguing for the last 2 days it's best we find a middle ground and get this over with, especially since I have other FMA revisions that are frankly more important than this thread.


      "At Least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly" or we can scale Low-Godly to Father and Hohenheim given they regenerate differently as opposed to a normal Homunculi.

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    • Eh, I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Do what you want Prince.

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    • ChemistKyle89 wrote: Eh, I'm tired of beating a dead horse. Do what you want Prince.


      Trust me, I'm totally aware of how tiring this subject is. Hence why i want to get it over with lol.

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    • Based on what i have read, Elizhaa makes sense to me.

      If the stone is a physical object, low godly isn't accurate.

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    • The Stone is nothing but a vessel, it's irrelevant when it comes to Homunculi regenerating. What they regenerate is from a stock pile of souls. Low-Godly for that reason should be enough, especially considering Dies Irae characters have it for the same exact reason. Relic's are physical but provide Low-Godly via regenerating from the souls inside it. For reference this is what it's like for the Homunculi, as they're souls themselves. that's what the stone looks like from the inside, again it's just a plethora of souls.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Low Godly regeneration applies if absolutely no physical remains exist, the stones are a physical object even if just a piece of it.

      Erasing the stone does nothing because it will regenerate due to the pool of souls. What you need to destroy are the souls to stop the regeneration, that is Low-Godly.

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    • I am honestly conflicted about the issue. It is Low-Godly based on the fact that the regeneration comes from the souls no matter the state of the body, but it isn't in the fact that the Philosopher Stone could almost be called a part of them as it specifically revives them no matter what happens, and if something remains then it can't be low-godly no matter the mechanisms. 

      So... let me ask it this way. If you had reliant immortality that could regen you even from complete destruction of all your atoms, would that be Low Godly if it relied on something?

      I think the main issue is two things. 1: Not being able to define if the Humonculi's Philosopher Stone counts as part of their body or not, and 2: The fact that the souls are being used as an energy source instead of the usual low godly where you can simply regen as long as your soul remains. 

      The second point is not that important, but the first one matters because, even if the source is your soul, if it hinges on a part of you still remaining, then the entirety of your physical form has indeed not been destroyed. And that makes things difficult if a stone has never been destroyed only to regenerate from that.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote: especially considering Dies Irae characters have it for the same exact reason. Relic's are physical but provide Low-Godly via regenerating from the souls inside it.

      You do know that those relics can de destroyed and this kills the user too? I believe it to be the same here, if the stone is destroyed they are done for

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    • For reference, we also give Low-Godly to Liches on-site, explicitly for regenerating from their soul stored away in a phylactery, which itself can be destroyed. 

      There is on-site precedent for this to be Low-Godly, and it is for the precise same reason: object exists which contains souls which fuel regeneration of the body. 

      Arguing against this would be altering many profiles on the wiki, and each one would need everyone knowledged in the subject matter to discuss imho. 

      The argument that it's 'part of their body' isn't actually relevant, since by definition they are regenerating from souls and their body not existing wouldn't prevent said regeneration unless and until the Stone were also destroyed. 

      Contingent regeneration does not get lowered due to how you can circumvent it, it is defined by the process via which regeneration takes place. 

      This is soul-based regen. By definition it is Low-Godly. All argumentation to the contrary needs to alter the definition of Low-Godly to make it not fit, really, and alter the wiki's definitions further.

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    • > Low-Godly: The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

      If we consider the stones / their "phylactery" to be a part of their body, then they wouldn't have suffered a complete physical destruction and therefore wouldn't qualify for Low-Godly.

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    • I agree with Damage. The liches should probably be downgraded as well.

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    • Liches with a phylacery should just have Type 8. Similar to Voldemort. And if Dies Irae characters cannot regenerate from a bare soul, no container, they shouldn't have Low-Godly.

      Using other pages with the same justification will just get those pages downgraded too.

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    • Alright Prom, so I suppose you'll be making downgrades threads for removing Low-Godly from the DI pages? I can't quite see that happening.


      Anyway once I get off of work I'll reply to everything above.

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    • I mean, if I knew the verse and knew that to be the case, I certainly would, but I don't.

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    • Promestein wrote: Dies Irae characters cannot regenerate from a bare soul, no container, they shouldn't have Low-Godly.

      Shirou did it, he was a soul and made a body for himself out of nothing, by extension the other apostles can

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    • Cool!

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    • He's talking about this Shirou in case you ask.

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    • Before I make my reply to the low-godly subject I think it's safe to give it to Hohenheim and Father, since they themselves are the stones and it isn't physical unlike the Homunculi who regenerate from an object. They also have vastly superior regeneration.

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    • Didn't Father say that there was a Philosopher's Stone inside of him (which is why he stuck his fist into Hohenheim's body), not that Hohenheim's entire body was literally a Philosopher's Stone?

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    • No, Hohenheim is literally the stone itself, Father absorbed some souls from Hohenheim which Hohenheim later used to destroy Father's Container. It's also why later he attempted to absorb Hohenheim's full being.

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    • Hohenheim and Father are weird cases but I'd accept Low-Godly as a possibility for them.

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    • Weird question maybe, since I'm just going off my memory of the manga, but did Hohenheim actually demonstrate any regeneration? I remember he was immortal and had insane durability since he tanked some of Father's attacks, but I don't remember him actually healing any damage he took.

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    • Promestein wrote: Hohenheim and Father are weird cases but I'd accept Low-Godly as a possibility for them.


      Various reasons tbh, they werw created using a lot more souls than Homunculi so they got to see more of the Truth's Gate and Father's existence is just.... well complex to say the least, it's not really known on what he is exactly.



      @Damage



      A few times mostly durning his fight against Father, the other times Hohenheim didn't fight directly so he took zero damage from the others, he sealed Pride instantly so he wouldn't need to fight.

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    • I can very much agree with at least Hohenheim and Father, as they themselves are the containers for their store of souls.

      I do have some potential grievances with it, but can't talk about them much right now.

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    • So "Limited Low-Godly regeneration" should work for Father and Hohenheim?

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    • Pride at the very least as well.

      We quite literally see a torrent of souls within him, explicitly

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    • Xulrev wrote: Pride at the very least as well.

      We quite literally see a torrent of souls within him, explicitly


      I believe it's also the same for Greed.

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    • I wouldn't say it applies to Greed. We've seen his Philosopher's Stone.

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    • Why would it be limited?

      Definitely not for Greed.

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    • @Promestein; it's limited by the number of souls they have. Eventually they'll be exhausted and they'll be unable to regenerate.

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    • Oh, yeah.

      Again, definitely not for Greed. Each Homunculus has the soul shit going on. Pride, though, is a mass of weird darkness with a container, like Father. Hohenheim believed that if Father's body were to be destroyed, he'd be in trouble; he turned out to be wrong, but that's because Father evolved past it.

      I dunno if Pride should have it as a result; we see that, after his body got seriously harmed, he couldn't maintain it any longer, and it started disintegrating, so he needed a new one.

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    • If we treat the stones like a phylactery, then we'd have to keep them Low-High [also need to downgrade Liches to this]. Does Pride have a stone or all his souls contained in the shadowy mass...kinda like a piece of Father that's been cut off. That's what they all are, btw, just little bits of Father's lust, greed, gluttony, sloth, pride, wrath, and envy. They can all technically be continually remade by Father from Father.

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    • Damage3245 wrote: @Promestein; it's limited by the number of souls they have. Eventually they'll be exhausted and they'll be unable to regenerate.


      Father and other Homunculi can absorb souls to counteract this weakness but with Homunculi such as Envy it's more difficult. Father just rips them.

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    • Re:Pride

      The only reason his body was so damaged was due to Truth's Gate directly harming him, so claiming that it shouldn't apply after he used his own body as a transmutation circle and was damaged by Truth itself feels a bit suspect

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    • Pride should have Low-Godly as well Verlux is right in that regard. Even when his soul was attacked directly Pride survived albeit in a much weaker form, as the strongest and oldest Homunculi who was based off of Father I believe it's more than enough to give him Low-Godly.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I agree with Damage. The liches should probably be downgraded as well.

      Why would we consider their phylactery as part of their body though? Not sure if this is the case for FMA, but generally speaking a lich's phylactery is just a recepticle they made- a ring or a gem or something. Rarely is such a thing part of their body and it seems a bit odd and arbitrary to assume it is part of their body when this is 99% of the time, not the case. 

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    • It'd just be Type 8.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      It'd just be Type 8.

      Sure, which is accurate and tends to be used, but generally speaking regen is tied to this to show the limitation of the Type 8. For example- Character relies on Object to survive, gets decapitated, head grows back. Type 8 and Mid regen. We wouldn't assume that the same object would prevent something like soul erasure without evidence. So removing regen for things like a Phylactery seems a bit off, since all it really does is remove clarification on the limits. 

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    • I mean, honestly, I hate that "Type 8 equals regen" thing, because there are characters with regen separate from Type 8, but it'll just get ignored in favor of Mid-Godly or whatever and that's what people accept

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    • The alternative is an NLF on Type 8, which I'd really rather not have. It's less that Type 8 equals Regen, it's more that Type 8 is limited by Regen. 

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    • Type 8 Immortality and regeneration are two different things; characters can have both, they're not really the same thing.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Type 8 Immortality and regeneration are two different things; characters can have both, they're not really the same thing.

      Never did I say they were the same thing. I'm saying it is foolish to remove one from the other as it leaves much open to interpretation. 

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    • @Bambu, that wasn't directed at you, I just heard what Prom was complaining about, which I also agree with her regarding that.

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    • Ah, aight. 

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    • The Wiki ate my earlier reply. In any case, I will say after reviewing most of the series again, I would say I could be fine with Van Hohenheim and Father (Fullmetal Alchemist) getting Low-Godly (limited by the numbers of souls possess) since their body was completely destroyed and rebuild from getting immortality (ch75 pg4-26)/Anime version and essentially becoming their own philosopher stone which is supported by numerous such as this  Hohenheim's statement here, (ch82 pg13). I could be fine with Pride's getting Low-Godly from Father since Father gave him a body based on his original body (manga scan) and some others points were brought above supporting him getting Low-Godly.

      From the others, my opinions remains the same since we see they have stones.

      Edit: After reading Promestein's recent comment here, I agree on her suggestion on At least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly for Father (Fullmetal Alchemist), Van Hohenheim and Pride because it is safer and more appropriate.

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    • Bradley's body was also endlessly deconstructed and reconstructed by the Stone. I also believe all Homunculi should get High regeneration at the very least, since as long as that stone isn't completely erased and has souls in it then they'll continue to regenerate. Also supported by Scar Deconstructing Gluttony's insides which would include the stone.

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    • The problem with what you are proposing here is that they never regenerate from a lone molecule, atom or something similar for them to get such level of regeneration.

      In the case of Bradley he was never left in that state either, he was just getting continously transmutated by the stone and that's it

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    • Tony di bugalu wrote:
      The problem with what you are proposing here is that they never regenerate from a lone molecule, atom or something similar for them to get such level of regeneration.

      In the case of Bradley he was never left in that state either, he was just getting continously transmutated by the stone and that's it

      Ninja'd

      I agree.

      On Scar's deconstruction, all we know was the damage was meant to be deadly but we are unsure exactly was damage

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    • Which again, isn't needed. What's important here is the mechanics of the regeneration, various characters on the wiki on the wiki have regeneration levels without actually having feats on that level, due to how the mechanics work. In One Piece Logias can have Mid-High and High regeneration despite never actually showing it, Edo Tensei aren't shown regenerating on a low-Godly level but they have it anyway because of the mechanics of the Jutsu. Characters don't need to be shown directly regenerating from a certain level.


      Edward even calls a Stone a High Enegry Substance the physical component is sheer enegry while they regenerate from the souls.



      @Elizhaa



      Scar's Deconstruction is Atomic in nature, saying it can be "deadly" is sheer downplay of it's capabilities.

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    • I'm pretty sure it's needed and by naming those examples more CRT's will likely come out as the actually need feats for stuff otherwise we can start slapping abilities into profiles because "that's how it works, we have no feats but it works".

      Personal note, I was against Low-Godly for the Edo Tensei and I still find it iffy at best and pure wank at worst.

      >Scar's Deconstruction is Atomic in nature, saying it can be "deadly" is sheer downplay of it's capabilities.

      Yeah, sure, it's deadly but when has he ever reduced the homunculi to pure atoms? Never, which brings us back to above

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    • It isn't needed, again several other verses do it and we've been doing it for a long time now. But you can feel free to make a CRT about it as a whole if you disagree, until then it's an acceptable method.



      Yeah, sure, it's deadly but when has he ever reduced the homunculi to pure atoms? Never, which brings us back to above


      .... i think your having a difficult time on what's being argued here mate. Scar used his atomic Deconstruction on the insides of Gluttony, which would include the Stone itself ( source of the regeneration. ) Homunculi have feats of regenerating from being vaporized, and the stone itself is a high energy substance, and Scar Deconstructed it. You guys were literally using the Stone as an anti feat for the regeneration in the beginning of the thread and now your arguing that the state of the stone doesn't matter, pick one argument and stick to it

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    • I might do it.

      >Scar used his atomic Deconstruction on the insides of Gluttony, which would include the Stone itself

      I thought it was already established that the stone was indestructible in verse?

      >Homunculi have feats of regenerating from being vaporized,

      Which one?

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    • I thought it was already established that the stone was indestructible in verse?


      By pure AP, I.E higher AP won't allow you to break through it by conventional means, Scar's Deconstruction is entirely haxxed based.



      And it's Lust's feat of regenerating after Roy vaporized her. Also regenerating from a mass of energy ( I.E the Stone ) is considered High regeneration.

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    • In this rare case, I don't see anything implies "all" Gluttony's inside was destroyed from Scar's hax especially we don't see a large hole through his stomatch. I think the same argument was presented already.

      And it's Lust's feat of regenerating after Roy vaporized her.

      • There is big maybe for validities since part of the statements are contradictory.

      Also regenerating from a mass of energy ( I.E the Stone ) is considered High regeneration.

      • I disagreed on that; the philosopher stone a liquid-solid so the statement doesn't support High regeneration.
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    • In this rare case, I don't see anything implies "all" Gluttony's inside was destroyed from Scar's hax especially we don't see a large hole through his stomatch. I think the same argument was presented already.


      The damage was done to his insides, not his outside. If Gluttony were to have a hole put in his stomach then that would defeat the purpose of attacking the interior as opposed to the exterior.



      None of the statement is a contradiction. Roy states that he vaporized her, feels the fat on his lips. He told Havoc to keep an eyeout and to not underestimate her regenerative capabilities, a second after Lust regenerates. This isn't a contradicted showing, it's you not comprehending the order of shit going on. Having to explain this to you is getting tiring, drill that into your skull.



      The Philosopher isn't a liquid nor a solid, it has the properties but that's not what it is. What the fucking Stone is a pure enegry substance with a tempest of souls. It's cut, clear and simple to understand, if you cannot understand this fact then i can't help you out, my 8 year old Nephew would be able to understand.

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    • Chill out, man.

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    • Promestein wrote: Chill out, man.


      Forgive me for getting irritated for having to explain the order of things for about the 29th time, having to do so runs my patience thin.

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    • You don't see anyone losing their shit over this dumb circular argument. It's just a disagreement. That's how debates go.

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    • Debates typically come to a mutual understanding, which is dandy but there's a complete and total difference between a circular argument and someone quite literally not grasping the order of what's happening, no matter how many times you tell them. Regardless this is derailing the thread so let's bounce back to what's important.



      Low-Godly is fine for Father, Hohenheim and Pride. Still in the middle of discussing normal Homunculi regen.

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    • I'm still on the fence about Low-Godly for those three. I'd be better with "At least Low-High, possibly Low-Godly". It'd be nice if the three of them had regen feats, but they don't.

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    • A flat out rating of "Possibly low-Godly" seems better imo, both are interchangeable really but the latter would at least eliminate the scaling to the Homunculi who have actual stones whereas Father and Hohenheim are. I think "at least low-high, Possibly Low-Godly" for Pride would suit him better.

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    • I think that Promstein's suggestion would be best.

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    • Damage3245 wrote:
      I think that Promstein's suggestion would be best.

      I guess it is safer and more appropriate. I agree with her suggestion.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote: Low-Godly is fine for Father, Hohenheim and Pride. Still in the middle of discussing normal Homunculi regen.

      Wait, why pride? He was literally falling apart without any mean to heal himself with the only exception of taking another body?

      We see him regenerate back from the attacks of the chimera and that's it but once it reaches the limits it starts to fall apart.

      As for lust, I don't remember very well the Manga but Roy never vaporized her, in the anime is shown even better and even itlf it was vap it would be contradicted with him being bloodlusted against envy and incapable of vap it

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    • You are quite literally wrong on every point there. First of all, Pride is the oldest and strongest Homunculi, based off of Father's being directly. And he only got fucked up after performing Human Transmutation and going through the Gate of Truth.


      Roy stated he vaporized her, it's both shown and stated by someone's who's experienced in doing that. Against Envy he wanted to make him suffer and he did actually manage to vaporize Envy, at least the lower and upper half of his body.

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    • It seems like we have mostly come to an agreement to use Promestein's solution then.

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    • Only potentially Low-Godly for those three.

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    • I also agree with Prom.

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    • Prom's proposal is fine with me.

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    • I agree with Prom as well.

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    • I'd be fine with potentially Low-Godly for Father and Hohenheim, but not Pride, I don't see why he would get it. If it's based on "Father gave him a similar body as his own" that's only referring to the fact that Pride's real body resembles Father's blacks sphere thing in appearance, not that he made him a philosopher stone body. And having his soul attacked directly is just soul manip resistance. Unless there was something else brought up for Pride, I disagree with him getting the potentially Low-Godly rating.

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    • I'll be making another post soon about the other Homunculi potentially getting a better regeneration rating, and I'll do more research on the composition of the stone itself. For now we can apply a "possibly Low-godly" on Father and Hohenheim. Pride should also get this as well, I'll address the comment above soon.


      Edit: I'll update my blog.

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    • Antvasima wrote: It seems like we have mostly come to an agreement to use Promestein's solution then.

      So should we apply this, with possible modification for what Ogbunabali said?

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    • No, Ogbun isn't the one who made the suggestion. A flat out rating of Possibly Low-Godly regeneration is what's agreed on for Father, Hohenheim and possibly Pride. We're still discussing the other Homunculi and I've invited Matthew to comment here since he's a knowledgeable FMA supporter.

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    • Promestein wrote: I'm still on the fence about Low-Godly for those three. I'd be better with "At least Low-High, possibly Low-Godly". It'd be nice if the three of them had regen feats, but they don't.

      Wasn't this the agreed solution?

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    • Either one works, however if we go with that suggestion it'll make the pages for cluttered and we'll have to revise the low-high regeneration at a later point, hence why a flat out rating of "possibly low-godly" regeneration would be better. Father and Hohenheim don't have actual stones, since they themselves are stones, they don't have the same anti-feats are the other Homunculi so low-high would be redundant. Father and Hohenheim don't scale to the average Homunculi regen since they have their own feats to scale from.

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    • I think it is better to keep the rating as "At least Low-High, possibly Low-Godly" regarding Father (Fullmetal Alchemist), Van Hohenheim, and Pride, for now; If the Low-High regeneration is likely to get revised at a much later time then I think it is best handle the changes in another thread.

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    • I actually agree with @The Prince of Counters about it just being "possibly Low-Godly" the Low-High rating comes from homunculi regening from their stones, which these two don't have. So they either have Low-Godly or some arbitrarily lower regen, which we don't know exactly how much.

      I still disagree with Pride, as his Low-Godly comes from nowhere.

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    • Can you actually explain why you think that's better? An actual legitimate reason would be nice, given Father and Hohenheim have their own feats they can scale to as opposed to scaling them to both Homunculi regen feats and their own feats. It's redundant when we can simply use the latter as opposed to the former. An outright rating of Possibly Low-Godly would be better given they scale to their own feats.

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • I guess it is time to move to conclusion phase.

      Ok, I think High-Mid/Low-High is lagerly agree for standard Homunculi; I think Low-High would stay and my proposal here would be applied. I think Promestein's recent option regarding At least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly for Father (Fullmetal Alchemist)Van Hohenheim and Pride as it looks to have a lot of supports.

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    • High-Mid is objectively false so no, we're not going to be using that. Also I wouldn't say that Prom's suggestion is what we're ultimately going with, as other users agree with a flat out rating of Possibly Low-Godly for Father and Hohenheim. There's absolutely zero reason to scale them to standard Homunculi regeneration, when they're vastly superior and have regeneration feats of their own. Also the Stone isn't limited to that of a Stone, as stated by Marcoh, it can take the form of several stated of matter. Matter can range from gases, solids, liquids, etc.



      And we're still discussing the Homunculi regeneration here, which nobody has countered Scar's Sub-Atomic Deconstruction.

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    • Low-High is fine, in my view. I checked again; I think most people agree on At least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly for Father (Fullmetal Alchemist), Van Hohenheim and Pride compared to the rating of Possibly Low-Godly for Father and Hohenheim; so, At least Low-High, Possibly Low-Godly might end up being applied.

      >And we're still discussing the Homunculi regeneration here, which nobody has countered Scar's Sub-Atomic Deconstruction.

      I think this point was associated with High-Regeneration above. Gluttony regenerating Scar's Sub-Atomic Deconstruction is not High regeneration; objectively speaking, the regeneration looks to be Mid regeneration. To get the High Regeneration, the definition of High Regeneration would need to be follow where Homunculi would need to regenerate from a "few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles".

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    • I'm not talking about the damage done to gluttony but rather his stone. Which is what we're basing the regeneration of the Homunculi off of. What I can settle for the Homunculi is "At Least Low-High, possibly High for the Stone." this in turn would be "At least High, possibly Low-Godly" for Father and Hohenheim. Scar deconstructed the stone, so at the very least the Stone itself would have High.

      Edit: By Elizhaa, my bad, I accidentally edited my message in; fixed

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I'm not talking about the damage done to gluttony but rather his stone. Which is what we're basing the regeneration of the Homunculi off of. What I can settle for the Homunculi is "At Least Low-High, possibly High for the Stone." this in turn would be "At least High, possibly Low-Godly" for Father and Hohenheim. Scar deconstructed the stone, so at the very least the Stone itself would have High.

      Objectively speaking, I would need to need more evidence of the stone destroyed to agree with those regeneration proposals.

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    • Elizhaa wrote: Objectiveky speaking, I would need to need more evidence of the stone destroyed to agree with those regeneration proposals.


      I don't have an x-ray of the manga scan, but Scar deconstructed Gluttony's internals ( where he attacks most of the time. ) and the Stone is apart of Gluttony's insides. What he know is that Gluttony's insides were deconstructed and the stone by extension considering it's his heart. This one is pretty cut clear, no Mangaka is going to zoom into the insides of something just so we can see what's happening.


      The Stone itself would have High regeneration, even if only as a possibly. The Stone is the heart of the Homunculi and Scar's Deconstruction targets major Organs, brains, lungs, hearts, etc.

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    • I think my opinion will stay the same but I am willing to ask more inputs later on your recent proposals, The Prince of Counters.

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    • Unfortunately opinions don't mean much in the face of actual facts. Scar targets organs such as the heart, lungs and brains with his Deconstruction and Gluttony's heart is the stone. To say that Scar didn't deconstruct the heart is a terrible counter-argument considering he's been using these types of tactics since day one of the manga.



      I'm not sure what's so hard to comprehend this, and if possible I'd like to hear why you disagree. So far you haven't even stated why, which isn't a legitimate reason.

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    • There's no reason to believe Scar's Deconstruction did anything to Gluttony's Stone. Scar's Deconstruction didn't do anything to Edward's auto-mail arm (might have been leg, don't remember) the first time he tried to kill Ed, showing the Deconstruction is material specific. We have no idea what material the stone counts as, but it's probably not the standard carbon of the normal human body.

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    • See folks, that's a valid counter argument right there. Not just "I disagree" and leaving it at that, so I'll thank Kyle for giving an actual reason.


      Tbh Scar's Deconstruction is pretty inconsistent in that regard, since he deconstructed Al's metallic armor without even knowing he's just a walking suit of armor. As for the stones composition the closest thing we have is Edward stating it's a high energy substance, aside from that there's not much.

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    • Alchemy requires one to understand the materials you are altering.

      Scar might understand the metal of armour or the component's of the human body to deconstruct them, but not the composition of the philosopher's stone, thereby making him unable to deconstruct them

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    • I may be misremembering, but I'm pretty sure even alloy composition changes introduce problems for deconstruction. Wasn't there an attempt to deconstruct the Briggs auto-mail and it didn't work? [Haven't read the manga and haven't watched the anime in a while (no Netflix)].

      Does Scar at the point he's fighting Gluttony know that the Philosopher's Stone is made of transmuted human souls? If not, he certainly couldn't attempt to deconstruct the stone.

      Has he ever demonstrated the ability to deconstruct two materials at once? He definitely had to deconstruct Gluttony's body to reach the Stone in the first, but if he can't deconstruct two materials at once, then he couldn't have attempted to deconstruct the Stone in the same attack.

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    • Also I completely disagree with any notion of the homunculi (including Father and Hohenheim) having Low-Godly, even "possibly". The stones may be made of condensed souls, but they are still very much a small physical object that can be damaged by anyone with enough force without NPI or soul manipulation. They can regenerate from the stones, which are small enough to mean Low-High, but nothing more.

      Also, they do not regenerate from souls, this is not the same as the LDO from Dies Irae. They use the energy contained within the stones to reform their bodies. That's it. They convert the souls in their bodies to fuel and use that fuel to regrow. Completely different situation.

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    • Actually forgot the analysis part of Alchemy tbh, that reminds me to add a certain ability for Alchemists once I get around to that CRT.


      But yeah, actual arguments where given, which I appreciate so I'm fine with Low-High.

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    • @Monarch


      Hohenheim and Father are quite literally human stones themselves, I.E they don't have physical stones themselves since they are the stone they also regenerate from the massive stock pile of souls, and souls in Fullmetal Alchemist are seen as enegry.

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    • I'm aware, and that doesn't change what I'm saying. Philosophers Stones are still physical things, not non-coporeal, and if you completely obliterated the physical form of Hohenheim or Father, they would have nothing left to regenerate from. There would be no Philospher's Stone anymore.

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    • There would, they'd still have the souls within themselves to regenerate from. This is seen with Hohenheim being able to converse and talk to the countless amounts of souls within himself. If Lust, a vastly inferior Homunculi could regenerate after Roy vaporized, using nothing but the Stone then Hohenheim and Father could do the same. And Father's Evolved form is actually intangible.

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    • What part of "completely obliterated" didn't you get. There is no more "within themselves" because there is no more "themselves".

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    • When a Stone is destroyed the souls just don't magically go away, the souls need to be burned through. Hence why Hohenheim needed to straight up rip away Father's 60 million souls after obtaining them.


      Their psychical bodies / Containers are irrelevant, Father's Evolved State even makes proof of this. Hohenheim actually orginally thought by doing what you suggested would kill Father once and for all, but it didn't. Father has evolved past that point and is stated so.

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    • I don't remember the scenes well enough to counter that but I'm almost certain that low-godly is not a thing. I'll get back here after I re-read the story. In the mean time, please post scans to back up what you're saying.

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    • It's almost 2 here, so I'm not gonna be able to comment much longer, let alone post scans. But you can see above for the scans I've posted for these claims or you can read my blog. Father's Evolved form is nothing but a mere mass of darkness, similar to that of his original state which was also immaterial.

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote:
      Also I completely disagree with any notion of the homunculi (including Father and Hohenheim) having Low-Godly, even "possibly". The stones may be made of condensed souls, but they are still very much a small physical object that can be damaged by anyone with enough force without NPI or soul manipulation. They can regenerate from the stones, which are small enough to mean Low-High, but nothing more.

      Also, they do not regenerate from souls, this is not the same as the LDO from Dies Irae. They use the energy contained within the stones to reform their bodies. That's it. They convert the souls in their bodies to fuel and use that fuel to regrow. Completely different situation.

      I agree with this. Low-Godly gives the idea that no matter what you do to the body, you need to destroy the soul to permanently kill them. It makes it seem like even if you kill the body 14568 times, a single soul will keep regenerating it unless the soul itself is destroyed. That's clearly not the case. 

      Nobody in FMA needs to specifically kill souls. A soul (or part of the soul/energy) is literally used up once you kill (or damage) the body. It's almost similar to if a stone has 427 souls, you just need to kill the body 427 times. It's equivalent to having 427 lives. And it's all contained in a philosopher's stone that should be counted as a special part of their body. If that part is destroyed i.e. the container that carries their extra lives is no more, then they won't be able to regenerate (I haven't seen any scans that says it can't be destroyed by conventional methods or AP).

      They have shown High-Mid regen and reliant immortality. 

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    • I agree with that AKM sama.

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    • AKM sama wrote:
      They have shown High-Mid regen and reliant immortality. 

      Having doubled checked our regeneration page, yes High-Mid is correct, not my earlier statement of Low-High

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    • Okay, let's go. First of all no, High-Mid is blatantly incorrect, at the absolute worst it'd be Low-High due to the Stone not acting as a solid that you can shatter. The Stone is not a solid nor is it a liquid as stated by the man who quite literally makes them himself.


      Nobody in FMA needs to specifically kill souls. A soul (or part of the soul/energy) is literally used up once you kill (or damage) the body. It's almost similar to if a stone has 427 souls, you just need to kill the body 427 times. It's equivalent to having 427 lives. And it's all contained in a philosopher's stone that should be counted as a special part of their body. If that part is destroyed i.e. the container that carries their extra lives is no more, then they won't be able to regenerate (I haven't seen any scans that says it can't be destroyed by conventional methods or AP).



      Yeah no, bullshit mate. Doctor Marcoh specifically destroyed all Souls within Envy's body aside from his own soul in order to incapacitate him. One of the most knowledgeable characters in the series knew this was the only way to actually counter-act the regeneration of the Homunculi. Also the Stone isn't a Substance that can be destroyed through conventional means, it's a perfect high enegry substance so durability isn't an issue for it as stated by Edward himself. Nobody in Fullmetal Alchemist even bothers attacking the Stone directly because durability is a non-factor to them. Instead they always opt to nuke the Homunculi themselves, Destroy the souls or simply yank them back out as Hohenheim did to Father.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote: Yeah no, bullshit mate. Doctor Marcoh specifically destroyed all Souls within Envy's body aside from his own soul in order to incapacitate him. One of the most knowledgeable characters in the series knew this was the only way to actually counter-act the regeneration of the Homunculi.

      Yes because by removing the souls you remove the energy source that they call on to power their regeneration.

      Also Stones being too durable to bother attacking doesn’t make them indestructible to physical attack.

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    • Monarch, read my response to AKM again. AKM specifically stated that nobody in FMA needs to kill Souls, which I corrected him on. Everybody who's read the series is aware that if you take away the souls you take away their regeneration, I'm not arguing against that so I'm not sure what made you think I am.


      Hohenheim as a 7-C can take portions of a 5-B to 4-C attack without shattering, and all he is is a living stone. Weaker Stone's such as Kimblee's which only uses a dozen or so souls is able to produce 7-C attacks without any sort of visible damage, and Edward himself who's very knowledgeable about the Stone even states that a Perfect Substance such as the Stone cannot be broken.



      At the absolute worst it's Low-High, High-Mid is downplaying like a mother trucker and is quite literally ignoring how the damn stone works.

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    • I'm still on board for Low-Godly (limited ofc), but IDK why "High-Mid" is even being argued.

      Lust was vaporized by Mustang. Regenerating from that is Mid-High. Worst-Case, I'm fighting for At least Mid-High BARE MINIMUM, or Limited Low-Godly.

      Again, the bodies are going to always be restored NO MATTER WHAT as long as there are souls within the stone. Whether this is "once or twice" or "hundreds to thousands" of times is irrelevant, as it is still Low-Godly regen. It just stops all together once the souls run dry.

      This happens for all Homunculi who are killed through conventional means: Lust, Envy, Sloth being prime examples. They simply faded away if they can't regenerate anymore.

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    • Low-High from what I'm gathering is based upon Lust calling her Philosopher Stone her heart. ( which is a false statement, for fucks sake the word Heart is even in quotation marks, this is actually never once stated again after this incident ) which is wrong for various reason. The Philosopher's Stone acts as the essence of the Homunculi, not the actual heart of the Homunculi. Also the Philosopher is much more akin to that of a liquid as opposed to a solid material like the stone, Roy's Alchemy is based around extremely heat, precision and explosive power, logically the Stone would have been vaporized along with Lust herself in that attack.



      Some people also seem to be confused on how the Regeneration works, as long as the Stone contains Souls the Homunculi will continue to regenerate endlessly. So in a case where a Homunculi is vaporized, they'll use the souls from within the stone to regenerate or form another body entirely, the soul that they regenerated from is then destroyed in the process. Rinse, lather and repeat. The process will continue until the amounts of souls are depleted from the Stone, then and only then will a Homunculi die. Their regeneration is never directly overpowered, not in a single instance.



      I'll make another post in a hour or two about what the Stone is, how it's made, what the substance itself is actually made of, and how at the very least Father in his Evolved and God state would have Low-Godly for being an immaterial being and regenerating from the souls from within himself.

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    • This is barely important, but the philosopher stone appear both in liquid and solid form. But yes, it was entirely unaffected by the heat and at no point does a stone recieve any sort of damage from any source.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Monarch, read my response to AKM again. AKM specifically stated that nobody in FMA needs to kill Souls, which I corrected him on.

      Yeah and nobody NEEDS to specifically kill souls. Marco did and that's great. He just reduced the number of lives or amount of times Envy can regenerate. He didn't need to do that. He could have easily killed Envy enough number of times like Mustang.

      Your point doesn't even refute anything of what I said. And just because the stone has not been broken or damaged, doesn't mean it is indestructible. That's basic NLF.

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    • It doesn't look like we've reached a conclusion yet.

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    • Alright, let's get this finished once and for all. I have objectively more important FMA revisions to attend to so I'd like to make this quick.


      The Stone, how it's made and what it's composed of

      The Philosopher's Stone goes by many names, The Sages Stone, The Stone of Heaven, The Great Elixir, The Red Tincture, the Fifth Element. The Philosopher's Stone acts as an Alchemical Amplifier that allows to make the impossible possible and for a very good reason. The Stone allows for the user to bypass the Law's of Equivalent Exchange The Law of Equivalent Exchange, which is based upon two concepts. the concepts are the Law of Mass Conversion and the Law of Natural Providence now what does this mean exactly? The Stone has the ability to turn Inorganic Matter into Organic Matter, and vice versa, The Stone also allows the user to create something out of nothing. The latter is the most important part to take away for the next part of this.


      how is the stone made?


      Quite simple, anyone who's bothered reading the Manga, or even the non-canon anime ( which is probably most of you tbh, a anime masterpiece. ) this stone is made from souls more specifically human souls are sacrificed and used in the Stone this is stated several times in the manga and it's quite literally the plot-point of the entire series.


      What is the stone made of?


      Arguably the most important thing here to note, given the fact that some peeps here are completely clueless to what the stone actually is. But let me start this off by saying this, anyone arguing that the Stone is an actual Stone like a random rock clearly isn't very knowledgeable on the series, therefore the argument of High-Mid needs to be dropped immediately, and it's best if the OP could remove it from the original argument as he doesn't even agree with it anymore.


      The Stones composition is also pretty simple to comprehend. The Philosopher Stone is composed of a High-energy Substance as stated by Edward Edward being the same person who's seen a decent chunk of The Gate of Truth twice, which grants anyone who passes through it immense knowledge, and has the direct research material from Doctor Marcoh who's the one that makes the Stone to begin with. the souls ARE the ingredients for the Philosopher Stone Edward even turns himself into a Philosopher's Stone, which is simply a soul The Philosopher's Stone is nothing more than the mere Amalgamation of Souls given form. And the Stone isn't the actual heart of the Homunculi, The Stone isn't an organ and they already have normal hearts. To a Homunculi what the Stone is, is their core, their essence, etc.


      Normal Homunculi Regeneration

      Now we'll dive into the Spicy stuff, as we know The Philosopher's Stone has the ability to create something from nothing as shown several times, this alone should be evident on how potent the regeneration for the Homunculi should be, as that alone would mean they're able to recreate their bodies if nothing is left. Of course as long as the Philosopher's Stone still has it's tempest of Souls, but for those of you who prefer actual shown feats then we can do that too.

      Homunculi can easily regenerate from Mid levels of destruction Mid-High as Lust as vaporized ( at least her physical body. ) once again Mid-High for the Physical body being blown to bits ( Note: Gluttony regenerated without his Stone even being present in the upper half of his body.) creating new bodies from the Stone even after the pshycial body has been dusted these feats alone should debunk any notion that they should only have Low-High regeneration, at least for the actual bodies of the Homunculi in question.


      Father and Hohenheim

      Alright, this is another good topic, one that the majority of us agree with having Low-Godly aside from Monarch, who's wrong for several reasons and is proven wrong by the actual manga itself and by Hohenheim.


      first of all Hohenheim IS the stone, nothing but a mere human being with thousands souls within him which is stated several times said souls within him are intangible, and we already know that Homunculi regenerate directly from these souls. Trying to claim that if his body is destroyed then the souls will also be destroyed is completely asinine. As long as the souls exist they'll continue to regenerate and resurrect Hohenheim, so unless both his body and surplus of souls are nuked then he'll continue to regenerate until the souls are depleted.


      Furthermore Hohenheim attempted to use Monarch's little theory of destroying the body in order to attempt to rid the world of Father. but... what do you know? Father sheds his physical body and takes the form of a mass of immaterial shadows a state that's similar to that of his original form matter simply phases through him Greed another Homunculi also finds himself unable to interact with Father

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    • Low-High is fine if the argument for it is that the stone can exist as a liquid.

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    • Yeah and nobody NEEDS to specifically kill souls. Marco did and that's great. He just reduced the number of lives or amount of times Envy can regenerate. He didn't need to do that. He could have easily killed Envy enough number of times like Mustang.


      .... you aren't following this properly are you mate? Whenever a Homunculi dies and resurrects the soul they used to regenerate from is then destroyed and they move onto to using the next soul. The souls from the Stone need to be burned through by killing the Homunculi over and over, or attacking or ripping the souls directly. That's what's being argued so I'd prefer if you didn't misconstrue arguments soley to make yourself seem right. All I'm gonna say to you is that if your arguing High-mid that truly shows how knowledgeable you are in this case.



      Your point doesn't even refute anything of what I said. And just because the stone has not been broken or damaged, doesn't mean it is indestructible. That's basic NLF


      Ah, so your gonna both stone-wall and be ignorant of the evidence that's already present in this thread? Gotcha. Edward directly states that a perfect substance such as the Philosopher's Stone cannot be broken, as stated in chapter 1 of the Manga. Again, I'd appreciate it if you weren't so dismissive about the evidence that's already present in this thread.

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    • AKM sama wrote: Low-High is fine if the argument for it is that the stone can exist as a liquid.


      Already covered that, also I'd like to hear your input on the on-going Reiatsu thread considered you're the user who's going around saying it isn't accepted. here At the bare minimum, Evolved and God Father would have Low-Godly, even if it's only as a Possibly.

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    • "Whenever a Homunculi dies and resurrects the soul they used to regenerate from is then destroyed and they move onto to using the next soul. The souls from the Stone need to be burned through by killing the Homunculi over and over"

      You're literally repeating what I said in my first post and calling me ignorant? Guess who is misconstruing arguments huh?

       "Edward directly states that a perfect substance such as the Philosopher's Stone cannot be broken"

      Textbook NLF.

      Also you need to chill. Using terms like ignorant, stonewalling, etc doesn't really help your case.

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    • You're literally repeating what I said in my first post and calling me ignorant? Guess who is misconstruing arguments huh?


      I'm calling you ignorant for different reasons, such as saying i haven't refuted anything you've said, despite me having had posted factual evidence eariler in this thread, if you could take the time to scroll up. The point being is that all the souls need to be nuked in order to stop the regeneration. Single-target is a non-issue to them, as they have a surplus of hundreds to thousands of souls within them, that'll heal any and all damage done to them.

      Textbook NLF


      And how is an object not even having durability to begin with a No Limits Fallacy? Nobody is claiming that the Stones have infinite Durability, the claim is that durability doesn't even apply to them to begin with given their nature. Alternatively you could scale it's "durability" to 7-C, but that would fuck up the scaling of the verse like no tomorrow.


      Also you need to chill. Using terms like ignorant, stonewalling, etc doesn't really help your case.


      Calling a spade a spade is exactly that. If someone's is being unwillingly ignorant, and not as a personal insult then I'm going to call them ignorant because that's a ignorant mindset to have during a debate. Anyway this is an irrelevant point and has nothing to do with the discussion.

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    • "I'm calling you ignorant for different reasons, such as saying i haven't refuted anything you've said, despite me having had posted factual evidence eariler in this thread, if you could take the time to scroll up."

      And still not refuted anything. I already outlined why it's not low-godly. But it's nice to see that now you agree with my point. Low-high is the most they'll get. 

      I'll get to Father and Hohenheim later.

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    • Play nice, please. Prince, cut the aggressiveness a smidge. Fighting against each other ain't gonna solve your problems, and I'm saying this to the both of you. 

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    • And still not refuted anything. I already outlined why it's not low-godly. But it's nice to see that now you agree with my point. Low-high is the most they'll get.


      Unfortunately for you, your explanation does make very much sense, and quite literally everyone on this thread agrees with Low-Godly for two, don't try to come at me with "Monarch agrees with me." either, since he had his own reasons which I've debunked. Low-High isn't the most they'd get either, considering A: Mid-High exists and B: The Stone has the capacity to make raw material out of nothing. But I have also noticed how you haven't even countered a single one of my scans or points on my other post for whatever reason. It's Low-Godly for the two of them, it's just limited in nature since the soul is sacrificed by the Stone in order to regenerate and create entirely new bodies, and even that's countered by the fact they can all absorb more souls at any given moment.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:

      The Stone allows for the user to bypass the Law's of Equivalent Exchange The Law of Equivalent Exchange, which is based upon two concepts. the concepts are the Law of Mass Conversion and the Law of Natural Providence now what does this mean exactly? The Stone has the ability to turn Inorganic Matter into Organic Matter, and vice versa, The Stone also allows the user to create something out of nothing.

      Stones don't bypass the law of equivalent exchange at all and do not create something from nothing. That is a point that is many many many times reinforced every time someone brings it up after the stone's true nature is revealed. They make it so that what you are exchanging is the souls contained within the stone instead of any physical matter. It gives the appearance of bypassing the law because the amount of transmutation you can do and matter you can summon out of seemingly nowhere is completely disproportional to the size of the stone, but make no mistake you are exchanging a soul for a soul matter or energy of some kind. There is still a law of equivalent exchange going on.

      The Prince of Counters wrote:

      and we already know that Homunculi regenerate directly from these souls

      We know absolutely no such thing. Homunculi regenerate by automatically converting the souls in the stone into the new matter of their body in accordance with the law of equivalent exchange. They do not regenerate directly from the souls, they convert the souls into the new matter. But the souls are still contained within a material form, and if that material form is completely destroyed they will have no souls remaining to regenerate from.

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    • Citation, please. Because I only remember that ever being stated in the 2003 anime which is non-canon, and yes the Stone does create something from nothing, just at the cost of a soul. As I said, as long as those souls are in the stone they can create pshycial matter out of thin air, and this is both seen and stated several times. There might be a caveat in the sorts when it comes to how many times it can happen, but by sacrificing a soul, one can create pshycial matter out of nothing.


      We know absolutely no such thing. Homunculi regenerate by automatically converting the souls in the stone into the new matter of their body in accordance with the law of equivalent exchange. They do not regenerate directly from the souls, they convert the souls into the new matter. But the souls are still contained within a material form, and if that material form is completely destroyed they will have no souls remaining to regenerate from.


      Again, citation of your claim is needed. You orginally asked me to post scans to support my claims, and as an Administrator you should know damn well that you also need to do the same. Quite literally all your doing is arguing semantics, at the end of the day they're sacrificing the souls from within the stone in order to regenerate and repair any damage done to the pshycial body, even if it means creating a new one entirely. And no, Father quite literally proves that theory wrong, the souls aren't just gonna fly out of the stone like that without being burned through, destroyed or ripped out with hax.

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    • It is not out of nothing. It is out of a soul.

      The fact that you have apparently missed a major thematic element of the story in preference of assuming it to be the "more powerful option" does not give me faith in the objectiveness of your analysis here. Nor does the fact that you have outright misused several scans by ignoring the context surrounding them.

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    • Everything Monarch is saying here makes sense. Low-Godly is not the correct rating for them based on that.

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    • The fact that you have apparently missed a major thematic element of the story in preference of assuming it to be the "more powerful option" does not give me faith in your objectiveness here. Nor does the fact that you have outright misused several scans by ignoring the context surrounding them.



      Alright, first of all I'm gonna tell you to drop the tone and the accusations of me misusing scans and ignoring context. Trust me mate, you don't wanna go down that road.


      I've already explained everything in my comments above, everything your currently arguing for is false. Start posting scans, or simply shut up.

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    • Damage3245 wrote: Everything Monarch is saying here makes sense. Low-Godly is not the correct rating for them based on that.


      It is, as agreed by several staff members and knowledgeable users. Monarch himself is completely clueless as to what he's talking about and has yet to post a single piece of evidence or citation.

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    • Actually you know what, fuck this shit. Unfollowed, if you want to genuinely sit here, ignore all of my scans, throw accusations around, make claims without citation or anything then I don't give a shit. Go right ahead and downgrade them to low, because I'm fucking done here.

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    • Can you stop getting so passive-aggressive with people's disagreements Prince? Theres 0 reason for you to speak to Monarch like that, even if you completey oppose him on this. 

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    • @Prince you literally used a scan from the first freaking chapter of the manga to try and back up that the stones could create something out of nothing even though there is an entire scene several chapters later after the protagonists have actually learnt what a Philosopher’s Stone is where they admit that everything about it letting you obtain something from nothing was a lie. And considering you use scans from chapters beyond that and claim to be knowledgeable about the verse, you likely knew that scene existed. So yes, I do believe that you have intentionally misused scans by posting them without acknowledging the very statement you are using in them is later discussed to be false by the very people making that statement.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Fighting against each other ain't gonna solve your problems, and I'm saying this to the both of you. 

      Ummm I don't quite understand who the other person is. If you were referring to me, I'm clearly not fighting here and nothing I've said in this thread should give you that idea. If it's not for me, then I apologize for the misunderstanding.

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    • I heavily agree with Monarch here. The highest level of regen anyone has displayed is High-Mid, not even Low-High. But I can agree with Low-High given that the stone can work normally even in liquid form. Also they should have reliant immortality, if they don't already have that. 

      Also I'm vehemently against giving anyone Low-Godly level of regen without any feats to back it up just based on speculation. We don't do that here. And it doesn't even fit here because of the reasons I and Monarch already outlined. Low-Godly would mean that they can't die no matter how many times you destroy their bodies unless you specifically destroy their souls, and that's factually not the case. They have a finite number of lives/souls and physically killing them enough times is gonna permanently kill them.

      Another thing that bugs me is why is Father intangible? Apparently the reasons given are scans where he actively dodges teacher's attack by changing the shape of his body , dodges Greed's attack in the same way. None of these examples show him actually phasing through any attacks.

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    • I agree that Father shouldn't be intangible. The fact that he had to dodge physical attacks pretty much proves that.

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    • Reading through the points again, I’ll have to disagree for Low-Godly

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    • I naturally agree with Monarch and AKM.

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    • I think we can go ahead and apply, we have enough input on top of the main one arguing saying he left.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I think we can go ahead and apply, we have enough input on top of the main one arguing saying he left.

      From what I read, I think Monarch and AKM's points make sense on Low-Godly being invalid.

      So, there should be no Low-Godly regeneration; Low-High regeneration looks fine. I change make the accepted changes later, then.

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    • AKM sama wrote:

      Another thing that bugs me is why is Father intangible? Apparently the reasons given are scans where he actively dodges teacher's attack by changing the shape of his body , dodges Greed's attack in the same way. None of these examples show him actually phasing through any attacks.

      This also needs to be changed. Or discussed, if someone has anything else to say about this.

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    • How about Prince tho? Even if he said that he doesn't care anymore, applying this with all of these current situation are felts really uncomfortable

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    • Veloxt1r0kore wrote:
      How about Prince tho? Even if he said that he doesn't care anymore, applying this with all of these current situation are felts really uncomfortable

      We already have a lot inputs on Prince's points; there is a lot of disagreement on Prince's points and his recent points; that said we do have some things that we agree on. I think we have about enough inputs, like Medeus said.

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    • AKM sama wrote:

      AKM sama wrote:

      Another thing that bugs me is why is Father intangible? Apparently the reasons given are scans where he actively dodges teacher's attack by changing the shape of his body , dodges Greed's attack in the same way. None of these examples show him actually phasing through any attacks.

      This also needs to be changed. Or discussed, if someone has anything else to say about this.

      I thought there was at a least valid statement or other feats showing for Intangibility but I recently look up chapter 97 which has the first appearance for Father's evolved form and other chapters, but I could not found out found evidence. Objectively speacking, I think Intangibility should be changed to Body Control and Absorption (from scans like [1], [2], [3] and [4])

      I have links of roughly all of Father's evolved form's appearance; nothing looks to show intangibilities, from chapter 97, 100, 103 and 104

      Chapter 97

      Chapter 100

      Chapter 103

      Chapter 104

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    • Yikes. Didn't think I'd see someone still using Mangapanda nowadays.

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    • Yeah, no Father not being intangible is a bunch of bullshit. This is going to be my final message before deactivating, as I truly no longer wish to associate any of you virtual pieces of trash. It's evident that the Staff members here hold power over what gets accepted and what doesn't, even if the staff in question is wrong. The all of you stan each other and ride on each other's backs, like a pack of disabled wild animals with god complex's, users believe that there's staff elitism for a good reason. Whatever you say is apparently law, and when they do get countered they simply bum-rush the thread by agreeing the each others arguements even if it's flawed.


      To AKM, you are quite literally one of the densest and cockiest staff members on this wiki. You argue shit you don't know about constantly, weather that be Bleach ( regarding the mechanics of Reiatsu, a normal person who's actually read Bleach could tell you 114 reasons on why he's wrong. Despite being told how it works mutiple times by the most knowledgeable member of the series on the wiki. Presumably because Dragon Ball characters get passively stomped by Bleach characters. ) or the case here. Spineless coward who nobody would take seriously if it weren't for you being an Administrator. So kindly, get off your high fucking horse.


      Monarch himself is unreliable, anyone who genuinely believes that the Nasuverse is 2-A is unreliable. If you were to present these types of bull shit arguments for 2-A Nasuverse on any other battle board such as Reddit or the OBD, they'd laugh at you. An Administrator who's willing to wank his favorite verses to literally infinity and beyond, but downplay others. Someone who believes that Gilgamesh is 2-A shouldn't be taken seriously. But wait, "but muh 2-D anime waifu's!!" at times like these it's when i truly wish i punch people in the head through the internet.


      Elizhaa himself in a mumbling, incoherent failure of an Administrator. He can barely form any coherent sentences and has the tendency to be wrong on his points, as was his High-Mid argument. Again, a spineless coward who relies on staff members to ride his back, how someone so repugnant managed to become a staff member is beyond me. He's a fucking idiot and can barely speak English, and has no knowledge on the series. All this clown-head ass simp is doing is posting links to chapters without any context, hence him fucking up in the first place with High-Mid.


      And i can already foresee the future replies that'll be made in accordance. The all of you are very predictable, you'll most likely either say I'm some random troll based off of pure speculation, act self righteous by making me seem like Hitler, etc. Anyway, I'll reply to Father's intangiblilty as my last comment here before deactivating.


      Father's container is destroyed by Hohenheim which is his pshycial body that was modeled after Hohenheim. and later sheds his vessel showing his true form Father purposely shed his Container, aka his physical body. Why in the world would Father have two pshycial bodies? That makes zero sense, as his Container would rupture from the inside if it was physical. Father objectively didn't change his bodies shape to avoid Greed, he's in a the form of his body here Greed then sneaks up on Father and attacks him while Father isn't paying attention to him and then the attack fails and simply dissipates his body into darkness Greed's hand cleary went through Father, Father didn't change his shape as his body became dissipated by the attack. even May's attack simply gets absorbed into his intangible body and fires it back



      Again this'll be my last comment, I've said what i needed to say, and the notion of Father not being intangible is a bunch of shit when feats and narratives supports it. But I'm also aware that no matter what i argue it'll be rejected by staff, because as we know they can't be wrong.

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    • @Prince Chill out dude, seriously this is unnecessary.

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    • @Prince can you tone down the profanity and slander? Cause throwing insults left and right for anyone who disagrees with you won’t help your arguments at all.

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    • >So kindly, get off your fucking horse

      And thus the most ironic post in Versus Battle Wiki history has been made.

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    • You guys broke him but God damn, he really needs the chill pill

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    • I haven't seen a shot fired like that since Bepo's post towards Weekly

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    • There hasn't been a post like that in quite some time but tbh it's always funny

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    • I wouldn't say "broke". I'd say cause an explosion rivalling the Tsar Bomba.

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    • And Das Boot has finally been dropped.

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    • That's enough guys, this isn't a chatroom.

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    • We can't have nice things

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    • Oof......what has happened here.

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    • Are you...ignoring my advice in your wall, Prince? Like seriously this is getting out of the hand, calm down and chill man

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    • Naw let him get banned if thats what he wants to do

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    • We should stop derailing. We still have the revisions to carry out.

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    • Simply gonna ignore THAT as to not derail the thread, and focus on the matter.

      The Prince of Counters wrote:

      Why in the world would Father have two pshycial bodies? That makes zero sense, as his Container would rupture from the inside if it was physical.

      Have you ever heard of body control, yeah that is a thing. And you're making a lot of extreme assumptions there.

      Greed's hand cleary went through Father, Father didn't change his shape as his body became dissipated by the attack.

      Your own scan shows that Greed's hand did NOT go through Father's body. The black outline of Father's body isn't even touching Greed's arm, it is surrounding it. Again, body control.

      Like I don't even know how someone can misinterpret that. Her kunai clearly hits Father's head and gets stuck there for a long time. They even have a whole conversation during the time when Father slowly pulls it inside his body and projects it out again.

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    • Holy Fuck...

      Get that man a Xanax.

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    • We stopped with the jokes 2 comments above

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    • To add to AKM's points, isn't the fact that he absorbs and shoots back the kunai that clearly hit his head prove that he isn't intangible? That's like saying water isn't tangible because objects sink into it.

      Father is not intangible and doesn't have Low-Godly.

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    • Two observations:

      Father crafted a body that looked like Hohenheim to wear kinda like a suit. Meanwhile, his real body has always been a shadowy mass since his time as the Dwarf in the Flask. He can clearly interact with physical objects, which would just imply Body Control. The real question is...is there any proof that he can actually act like an intangible shadow? We know he didn't have intangibility as the Dwarf in the Flask because he couldn't get out of the flask, implying his shadow form does have physical mass. I don't know enough to say for certain if that's been proven different once he gained a bunch of soul power or not though.

      Secondly, the Law of Equivalent Exchange holds certain. That's the same as the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy. In this case, the stones are transmuting the Energy of the human soul to create Mass. They definitvely don't circumvent that. They only appear to break the Law of Equivalent Exchange to those who don't know what the stones are and what the source of their power is.

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    • This really has become a bunch of Staff just FRA'ing each other it feels like. 

      Prince, regardless of his outburst, has an exorbitant amount of objective feats to support his point. A Philospher's Stone is not a part of the Homunculi's actual body, Edward turned himself into a Stone and became a part of a torrent of souls directly inside Pride's body for example. Lust saying it's her 'heart', and heart being in quotations, this statement being used to claim it's a part of their biological form is really just missing the blatant fact that they aren't. 

      Retcon, true Stone form, call it what you will, but that's the most explicit instance I can think of that supports his point, is Edward becoming a stone and entering a torrent of souls as a result. 

      Limited Low-Godly is still Low-Godly. The fact it's tied to a number counter (# of souls remaining) doesn't change the base fact of what it is. 

      Cin also was somehow just outright ignored, for the record. 

      Father and Hohenheim have no true form and regenerate from souls. Pride does as well. Lust, Envy, Greed, they all regen from vaporization so at the very least CinCameron is objectively right on his assessment. 

      I highly encourage people to actually read the evidence present here because this has become absurdly ridiculous.

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    • Yeah I'm still on Prince's side of the argument as well.

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    • If they have no dependency on the stone at all, then why does Envy die after he rips his out? Rips out StoneEnvy Dies. That's from Ep 54 of the anime (not sure if it's different in the manga).

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    • The Pride thing is notable, but Pride is also unique and weird.

      Edited.

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    • I still don't agree with Prince's points, Low-High should be fine. I've read through this and I do have a bigger opinion on it, but I don't want us to spend more time on this then necessary.

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    • "Lust saying it's her 'heart', and heart being in quotations, this statement being used to claim it's a part of their biological form is really just missing the blatant fact that they aren't. "

      That's not the reason at all. The fact that the stone always resides in the bodies of Lust, Envy etc and is directly linked to them, makes it a special part of their bodies. Pride is a different case.

      "Limited Low-Godly is still Low-Godly. The fact it's tied to a number counter (# of souls remaining) doesn't change the base fact of what it is. "

      The problem is you focusing on the single aspect of low-godly which is about regenerating from the soul while ignoring everything else low-godly is about. And I've pointed out many times now that low-godly gives a false idea about their regeneration. Them having no feats to show for such a high level of regen doesn't help either.

      "Lust, Envy, Greed, they all regen from vaporization"

      As far as I'm aware, there is no single scan that says Lust's entire body was vaporized.

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    • I was going to write a long post but AKM's recent points already encapsulate what I would have written.The vaporization evidences doesn't look solid enough, to me; if you want to read more of my arguments against it, it should be above. 


      Since there are no more arguments, I will make the changes later today or tomorrow.

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    • I almost done with the edits. I expanded a bit on the weakness explanations to be more accurate.

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    • The changes were made; if they are fine, the thread can be closed.

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    • Looks good.

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    • Since the changes are fine, I will closed the thread.

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