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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    21:31, February 22, 2020

    Based on this blog which was made in the OLD tiering system, many of Beatrice (Wild Arms)'s abilities have been accepted as 25 dimensional.

    This blog though is not validated yet based on the new Tiering System where dimensions are treated as higher-infinite.

    So, this thread is to check if the blog is valid in the new Tiering System; based on the result, the relevant changes will be made.

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    • mhhh that doesn't qualify for our tiering tbh; It seems to me that the blog proved the higher dimensions using the fact that you can't interact with lower dimensions, maybe for the old tiering was enough but for our new tiering standars is definitely not enough.

      Maybe someone can post some other scans to prove it for our new tiering, if they are not in the blog.

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    • I looked over the blog a few times, and my verdict is that the evidence provided is not enough to prove that Wild Arms treats higher dimensions as higher infinities. As Tyri pointed out, the basis of the argument is that 3-D characters cannot physically interact with Beatrice, nor can Beatrice directly interact with them, needing to manifest an avatar of sorts to do so. However, according to our new standards, this does not prove that Beatrice is several magnitudes of infinity above the rest of the cast.

      As for the stuff dealing with space and time, as far as I can see, it just talks about how Belial (and Scythe, I guess) can control space and make pocket universes to BFR people to, and how Hugo can control time. None of this indicates tier 2 at all.

      Overall, unless someone can bring new scans to the table, I think that a downgrade is in order.

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    • Looked at it only cuz I saw mention of this chick in a certain "top strongest thread".

      Unless I'm missing some important context here, the blog doesn't tell me anything about the dimensions being treated as higher infinities like what KingPin just noted. At best it's as what Tyri pointed out in that beings from a higher dimension aren't able to interact with those from a lower dimension and vice versa. But nothing saying about said dimensions being also treated as higher realities or infinities...whichever it is that you guys use here.

      Similar to a Cthulhu thread one time, something like this actually could have worked if not already had worked or been applied back in the previous Tier system. At least in terms of her abilities working on a 1-B scale. Since the new system has been made and put into place, however, this doesn't seem to appy any more from the looks of it.

      Though if there is someone who provide more on the dimensions case beyond what's already on the blog that could help with the tiering if not with the scale of the abilities being at such high of a level. If not and that's all there is to it, then I agree to a downgrade until further notice. Also, agree in what KingPin said regarding the space and time stuff.

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    • I'm not active in the wiki matters anymore, but I was contacted for this, so... 

      As Tyri said, for the Old Tiering system it was enough.

      Case in point, as long as one could prove that the dimensions were spatio-temporal ones (rather than say, some random pocket reality or alternate smol world), they were considered enough to warrant the higher tier by default in the previous system. You didn't need straight up explicit mention of infinities.

      I'm not all that keen on the new tiering system but from what little I read of it, I'm pretty certain the requirements for those things have been raised enough that she does not qualify anymore. 

      That said, even back when it did I personally vouched that such should scale only to Beatrice's hax. That is the reason why even prior to this thread she is rated 5-A so... Uh.

      I don't really see how much even changes there other than handwaving the hax in thread?

      Or does this reduce her range also and whatever?

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    • Huh guess I was off.

      But what will her Hax level be changed to?

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    • Thanks for the inputs, guys. 


      From what I read, I also agree dimensional statements don't qualify to new tiering system.


      Fate, yeah, besides the 25-hax, 25-dimensional statements being no longer applicable would reduce her range and speed statistic; it might lower her Immortality.

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    • KingPin0422 wrote: 

      As for the stuff dealing with space and time, as far as I can see, it just talks about how Belial (and Scythe, I guess) can control space and make pocket universes to BFR people to, and how Hugo can control time. None of this indicates tier 2 at all.

      Expanding on my reply above: Back in the day, these points were further evidence of how the series treats dimensions as spatio-temporal ones. In the previous system, spatio-temporal dimensions = higher infinities by default. The ones disregarded were those series where either there are one too many contradictions or the ones were the terminology with "dimensions" were used to refer to pocket worlds or alternate universes and whatnot.

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    • Elizhaa wrote:
      Thanks for the inputs, guys. 

      From what I read, I also agree dimensional statements don't qualify to new tiering system.

      Fate, yeah, besides the 25-hax, 25-dimensional statements being no longer applicable would reduce her range and speed statistic; it might lower her Immortality.

      I'm in agreements with the downgrade based on the new system. Thankfully the tier is already set to 5-A anyways so it shouldn't be too much work aside from changing range and whatnot, only problem being I have no idea how her range would be rated based on what she has and the new system now.

      Speed probs downgrades to Unknown.

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    • Checking on it (and do correct me if I'm wrong), my guesstimate is that range would be down to Low Multiversal. It isn't 25 higher dimensions above, but it can reach across from the Dream World to Reality and different dimensions which are spatio-temporal ones.

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    • Speed probs downgrades to Unknown - this option works.


      Yeah, the range looks to be Low Multiversal; I think you are right.

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    • What are the conclusions here?

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    • Thus far:

      Her tier is already at 5-A, so that is already down.

      Her hax isn't considered Higher Dimensional anymore in threads. Her immortality isn't either.

      Speed downgrades to Unknown, Range goes down to Low Multiversal.

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    • She would also lose Higher Dimensional Manipulation.

      All the 25th-dimensionstatements should be removed from her profile or explained to be in a note as not qualifying for valid dimensions in the new tiering system, as well.

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    • God dang, many of the old kings of back then are no longer as powerful anymore. The Demonbane cast, The One Above All, Unicron, now Beatrice

      I'm just glad DC stayed the same as it did

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    • Why would she lose Higher Dimensional Manipulation? That isn't exclusive to higher dimensions that are infinitely superior to each other I'm pretty sure.

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    • Ogbunabali wrote:
      Why would she lose Higher Dimensional Manipulation? That isn't exclusive to higher dimensions that are infinitely superior to each other I'm pretty sure.

      It should be, it's linked to higher dimensional existence, prolly it should be spatial manipulation.

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    • Ogbunabali wrote:
      Why would she lose Higher Dimensional Manipulation? That isn't exclusive to higher dimensions that are infinitely superior to each other I'm pretty sure.

      From the justification on her profile, it was based on her 25th-dimensional statements being valid dimension.

      Her 25th-dimensional statements are not valid in the tiering system.

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    • KingPin0422
      KingPin0422 removed this reply because:
      Not yet.
      22:27, February 21, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • I mean, the only thing was that the Overvoid became from 0 to High 1-A

      Unless you are planning to downgrade them although it was accepted by, virtually everyone that the big guys of DC like the endless will stay at 1-A

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    • Tyri456 wrote: It should be, it's linked to higher dimensional existence, prolly it should be spatial manipulation.

      Why should it be? Manipulating higher dimensions is manipulating higher dimensions. And Higher Dimensional Existence doesn't say you need to infinitely higher dimensional to qualify for it, it just mentions that you need higher infinities in order to qualify for a tier.

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    • Elizhaa wrote: From the justification on her profile, it was based on her 25th-dimensional statement being valid dimension.

      Her dimension is a valid spatial dimension, it's just not infinitely superior.

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    • They are seen as spatio-temporal dimensions, just dimensions that don't qualify for infinitely superior smth ye.

      I feel as long as it's specified in a note/recognized that those aren't whole degrees of infinity above stuff, that could stay.

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    • I see, I was mistaken. Higher Dimensional Manipulation would still be fine.

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    • It isn't an higher dimension (according to the tiering) anymore, just a dimension, so it should be spatial manipulation.

      if you gave her that ability she can interact with being that are in higher dimension currently with our tiering.

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    • It is a higher dimension, just not an infinitely superior higher dimension.

      Sure she can, although it would either be exclusive to other non-infinitely higher dimensions, or any higher dimensional being but she wouldn't be able to do anything to them either way due to the incredible size difference.

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    • FateAlbane wrote:
      They are seen as spatio-temporal dimensions, just dimensions that don't qualify for infinitely superior smth ye.

      I feel as long as it's specified in a note/recognized that those aren't whole degrees of infinity above stuff, that could stay.

      Yeah or you should specify that, my problem was that if someone go on her profile during a versus thread he can misinterpret that 

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    • In the thread that changed the tiering system, it was specified that higher dimensions don't need/have to be infinitely superior ones. Some series treat them as such, others don't really. While Wild Arms' higher dimensions aren't infinitely bigger ones they are still higher dimensions, just irrelevant when compared to the ones that are that degrees of infinity above.

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    • Tyri456 wrote: 

      Yeah or you should specify that, my problem was that if someone go on her profile during a versus thread he can misinterpret that 

      Ye, they aren't smurfery of any kind anymore. A note should do the trick to clarify and prevent that mistake from happening.

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    • Yeah, a note should works.

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    • It seems like you have things under control here.

      I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • Fate, I think the axis of Beatrice's higher dimensions that she can manipulate would just be 4-D at peak, what do you think?

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    • Yeah, all of this seems fine to me, based on the blog and on what Fate says.

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    • I wrote this note:

      • Note: Regarding the higher dimensions such as the 25th dimension in the Wild Arms franchise, they are not valid dimensions in the Tiering System where dimensions are treated as higher-infinite. Hence, the dimensions are spatial-temporal in nature and no abilities would be to a Tier 1 scale.

      I think the note works so any opinions?

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    • Sounds good to me on both accounts.

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    • Thanks, Fate; this works for me.

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    • I will fix the wording:

      Note: Regarding the higher dimensions such as the 25th dimension in the Wild Arms franchise, they are not valid higher infinities in the Tiering System. Hence, even though the dimensions are spatial-temporal in nature, no abilities would be to a Tier 1 scale.

      ...it likely needs more work, but this is what I was able to manage at this time.

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    • Thanks for the help, man; it also works.

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    • I will add the link to Fate's blog in the text.

      • Note: Regarding the higher dimensions such as the 25th dimension in the Wild Arms franchise, they are no longer valid higher infinities in the Tiering System. Hence, even though the dimensions are spatial-temporal in nature, no abilities would be to a Tier 1 scale.

      I think this option is nicely and properly replace the old note on Beatrice (Wild Arms).

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    • Sounds good. If I may make a smol suggestion in wording, I feel like the "not valid..." would be better written as "no longer valid..." as that would also explain why they once applied back in the day, in the old Tiering System.

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    • Ok, that's is improvement, I will add it; thanks again, Fate. I messaged Antvasima and the changes are fine so I will add them.

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    • Alrighty. You're welcome and thanks all the same for the effort! o/

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    • You are welcome and thanks again for the help, guys👍

      The changes were made now. 

      Since everything looks alright, the CRT should be closed soon.

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    • I will do so.

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