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  • The main CRT for the Archie Sonic Revisions are here: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3917891

    This is a Contact Revision Discussion on a particular ability Archie Sonic has, his Immortality. Since the main discussion is covering a lot, A lot, I thought it be easier if we can discuss them in pieces rather than jumping all over the place.

    Foneybone1 wrote:

    Immortality

    Sonic is granted Type 8 immortality via his ring aura reviving him after being erased by the Ultimate Annihilator.

    This, however, is not what actually happens, Snively replaced everyone’s bio-data with Robotnik’s meaning only Robotnik could be erased. The Annihilator overloaded due to Sonic and Robotnik’s fight which caused Sonic and the rest of Mobius to blink out of existence for a moment. While Sonic was both at ground zero of the Annihilator overloading and in close proximity to Robotnik he still wasn’t in danger. The Annihilator was coded specifically for Robotnik’s bio-data, Sonic being close to and or touching him would not result in him being erased with Robotnik since his bio-data would still be different. Sonic was confirmed to have popped out of existence and returned alongside Mobius, no ring aura involved, he came back the same as everyone else. Him coming back progressively can’t be contrasted with anyone else as we only see Sonic return and since we are told he came back the same as them, the only assumption that can be made is they came back the same. A ring being on screen is not sufficient evidence to say the ring aura is responsible for his return when we don’t see anyone else’s return to compare it too and we are told both in the story in encyclopedia that he returned the same as everyone else.

    Sonic’s ring aura required extra power in order to unroboticize him in the Mecha Madness Special making it is unreasonable to assume the aura could return him from a state of nonexistence entirely on its own without extra power when it was unable to perform a lesser feat previously.

    Furthermore, Sonic is confirmed to have died twice. He is killed through unknown means by Mephelis, requiring the Chaos Emeralds to revive him and is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver’s past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline. So even if one pretends Sonic had type 8 immortality in issue 50, it was only a one-time thing and is no longer applicable.

    Sonic is also listed as having Type 3 immortality, however, there doesn’t seem to be any justification for this and there are no examples of him displaying any sort of advanced healing to my knowledge. If it’s based on the ring aura preserving his life force, it still doesn’t qualify for type 3, the deroboticization process also healed Knuckles' wounds and the aura was unable to alter Sonic at all on its own.

    Sonic’s immortality should be removed.  

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    • The types of immortality the discussions are going to cover is type 3 and type 8.

      “Type 3: Immortality via regeneration: Characters with this type of immortality can simply regenerate from wounds that would normally be lethal, though its effectiveness depends on the degree of the regeneration.“

      “Type 8: Reliant Immortality: The character cannot die as long as a certain being, object, or even concept exists.”

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    • To start with, Let’s have a conversation about Type 3 first, as Type 8 is a bit more complicated.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: ... is permanently killed by Mecha Sally in Silver’s past, which is confirmed to be the Prime Zone timeline.

      First, I’m debunking the fact that Prime Sonic of the Prime timeline ever died in the series.

      The 1st instant I’m debunking is Silver’s Future, which after saving Rotor’s Walrus Herd, became Prime Sonic’s Prime Timeline.

      Firstly, Sally saying “almost murdered” doesn’t mean Sonic was actually about to die. It means she could’ve but it was ultimately unable to and was prevented by Silver.

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      Sally’s statement alone doesn’t prove Sonic died.

      Secondly, to further prove Sonic didn’t die during this event in Silver’s Future, Silver takes out a newspaper stating he will be fighting the traitor to the Freedom Fighters side-by-side with Sonic and mentions the Freedom Fighters vanishing during the event, foreshadowing the Genesis Wave.

      Everything that was in the newspaper played out like it described. The Freedom Fighters vanishing meant they disappeared from Pre-Genesis Wave World to Post-Genesis Wave World and the Pre-Genesis Wave World wondered what happened to them for Silver’s Future to still exist after the Genesis Wave (not SGW).

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    • Yes, Sally was going to kill Sonic, he was saved by Silver, but Silver wasn't there to save him in the previous timeline, so he died, that's the entire point of his story. The diary can't be refering to the Genesis Wave because they don't go to another zone or anything the zone itself is changed, they're all still there, but reality was altered.

      Wait, I just realized this is pointless, Mephelis kills Sonic. Sally killing him isn't necessary to prove he can be killed.

      Here's the rub, the encyclopedia tells us Sonic wasn’t killed by the annihilator, and that he is later killed by Mephelis. With this in mind, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality?

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    • I haven’t got to Mephiles yet, for I will go into debunking that.

      For now, what are your opinions of the Newspaper detailing the events From the future? Stating that Silver was fighting side-by-side with Sonic and the vanishing.

      The implications are that the future wasn’t changed by Silver’s actions.

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    • You're going to somehow debunk the words "the death of Sonic"? sure

      Silver had fought alongside the FF prior to his last trip to the past, and the phrase vanashing does not necessitate anything beyond Antoine not seeing them again. You're implying the Genesis Wave sent them to another zone rather than altering it. How would the journal be able to document the SGW?

      Silver is displaced in time, literally every action he takes changes the future.

      But back to the actual point, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality? That has to be answered before anything else.

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    • Does anyone in universe even know about Sonic’s immortality, I’m pretty sure Sonic doesn’t even know about it

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    • > “but the way the story is presented it's implied he dies in them”

      No? Destroys the Freedom Fighter, the end of the Freedom, doesn’t mean death. If you actually paid attention the story, Silver is wrong a lot. A lot. All his predictions are misunderstandings. However, not in a death way, the Freedom Fighter did end, With Sonic confirming that.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote:

      But back to the actual point, what proof is there that Sonic has type 8 immortality? That has to be answered before anything else.

      I will but not yet. I debunk one thing at a time. You don’t get to pick and choose the order I debunk or prove things.

      And I am in the middle of proving Sonic has type 8 immortality, by first proving he never died in the series.

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    • From a certain point of view Sonic wasn't even perma dead, with Elise sensing him and whatever, don't get focused on one little thing thinking that it can't be anything except that thing

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: You're going to somehow debunk the words "the death of Sonic"? sure

      What words? From where? Context?

      Foneybone1 wrote: Silver had fought alongside the FF prior to his last trip to the past, and the phrase vanashing does not necessitate anything beyond Antoine not seeing them again. You're implying the Genesis Wave sent them to another zone rather than altering it. How would the journal be able to document the SGW?

      ... Do you have selective hearing? The information came from a newspaper from an unknown author, not Antoine in a Coma.

      The newspaper said “Freedom Fighter vanishes” not “Reality was rewritten.” The genesis wave is the only thing that the newspaper can be referring to.

      Foneybone1 wrote: Silver is displaced in time, literally every action he takes changes the future.

      That would be true if his actions took a different route than what was described in the newspaper. Instead, Silver was following the path the newspaper described.

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    • At risk of coming across as dismissing criticism, this is the same problem we had with the fate hax discussion. Before trying to discredit Sonic’s deaths, there needs to be a reason to believe Sonic has type 8 immortality, what is it?

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    • Immortality (Types 3 and 8. The latter is reliant on Sonic's One Billionth Power Ring Aura, which allowed him to recover from being erased from existence by the Ultimate Annihilator after it overloaded. Was stated and shown to be successfully vaporized, but was left in a sort of limbo before being able to return once more. His Aura also retains his life force)

      This is what is on his wiki.

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    • Ok, so the encyclopedia says Sonic wasn't annihilated. How then, can this be considered type 8 immortality? 

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    • 1. The encyclopedia was created by writers who didn’t write the original story.

      2. They emphasize Robotnik was annihilated because he was permanently erased from existence and was obliterated for good.

      3. The encyclopedia doesn’t state Sonic wasn’t erased from existence. All it said was “Sonic and Mobius, meanwhile, blipped out of existence for an instant before returning.”

      Leaving the necessity of Sonic coming out of his ring up to interpretation, becaise shortly after Sonic got him out of his ring, Locke states the rest of Mobius got erased as well, Only for a second. Why the Sonic in particular needed his ring to save himself is the question needing an answer.


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      The encyclopedia doesn’t mention Sonic coming out of his ring because up to that point, the writers forgot the one billionth ring was still on Sonic.

      In the end, they inadvertently added powers and abilities to the one billionth ring by giving Sonic abilities and not explaining where they came from.

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    • 1. That's irrelevant.

      2. Robotnik is said to have been annihilated because that's what the annihilator does. It's a way of saying it killed him the way Snively intended.

      3. It groups Sonic and Mobius' blipping out of existance together. It excludes them from being annihilated, meaning the annihilator didn't kill Sonic like it did Robotnik, confirming what Dr. Quack said, that Sonic wasn't in danger. We also have no reason to assume Sonic returned by different means than the rest of Mobius as it also groups their return together.

      Sonic coming out of a ring is left up to interpritation, but only when considering issue 50 by itself. With the encyclopedia we don't have to interprite it. It groups Sonic's return with Mobius' impling everyone else came back the same way. We don't see anyone else come back, so we can't say they didn't also come back through a ring.

      Sonic being unaffected by Finitevus' hex implies Ian had not forgotten about the billionth ring, but more importantly, we can't say Ian just forgot and that's why he doesn't mention it. Part of his job was to organize these things after all. We also can't ignore the encyclopedia's explanation because Ian maybe possibly forgot about the billionth ring, which was never confirmed to have been the cause of what we see in issue 50 anyway. The ring we see being the billionth ring is conjecture, and Sonic coming back via different means can't be extrapolated from the encyclopedia's explanation.

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    • > We also have no reason to assume Sonic returned by different means than the rest of Mobius as it also groups their return together.

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      Fact: Sonic is the only one stated to be protected by ring energy, just 10 issues prior. Nobody knows Sonic came out of the ring other than the reader, so any opinion like from Dr. Quack or Locke, who has the quote the Encyclopedia uses, aren’t valid sources of information.

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    • I know only Sonic has the ring aura, but the ring we see isn't confirmed to be his billionth ring, that's an assumption on the part of the reader. In that same story from 10 issues prior, the ring aura can't even unroboticize Sonic without assistance, and now we're expected to believe that it can bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence, not only with no real evidence but also with evidence to the contrary. 

      What reason are we given to believe Dr. Quack and Locke are wrong? Them not knowing Sonic is protected by rings isn't proof they're wrong, it makes it possible that they are, but unless we are given reason to doubt them, we can only assume that what we're told through them is correct. Their statements are reaffirmed by the encyclopedia, meaning they are indeed reliable. If they are unreliable, why would a guidebook, the purpose of which is to be correct, posit their incorrect information as fact?

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    • The encyclopedia use their statements, not support the statements. There is a difference.

      The encyclopedia itself never supports or denies the existence of the 1,000,000,00Oth Ring, so any information you can use against or for the one billionth ring will not be found in encyclopedia but only within the pages of the story.

      The encyclopedia repeats exactly what Locke in the story says, revealing no new information. Meaning the encyclopedia doesn’t add any new context to the situation.

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    • Mentioning Sonic blipped out of existence along with Mobius supports the fact that Sonic got erased from existence. However, the encyclopedia doesn’t mention their situation was exactly the same, just mentioning that they were both erased from existence before returning from Non Existence.

      While we can see from the story, Sonic came out of a ring and we see at 10 issues prior that Sonic is the only one protected by Ring Aura.

      The same Ring Aura that saved Sonic from being vaporized to death.


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    • I’m also posting these two posts from another thread to explain how Sonic would still have been erased from existence that the U.A. was hitting at Robotnik directly despite his bio data not being targeted.

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      snip

      ElixirBlue wrote: snip

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: I know only Sonic has the ring aura, but the ring we see isn't confirmed to be his billionth ring,

      This isn’t evidence but since you would like relying on the narrative or, the author’s intention, Look at this line describing the timeframe of everything being erased out of existence, written by Ken Penders who was involved with the one billionth ring and was the author who wrote that panel of Sonic escaping from white space out of a ring.

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    • The point of the encyclopedia is to tell us the facts. What part of the encyclopedia makes you think it's just regurgitating quotes instead of telling us what actually happened? It's not even quoting Dr. Quack and Locke; it's literally reaffirming their statements as true. If they're wrong why aren't we ever told that, and why would the encyclopedia promote what's said in the comic as if it's true if it's not? 

      It also does give us new information. It confirms Sonic went and returned with Mobius via the same means by grouping their departure and return together. It also separates them from Robotnik's annihilation, clarifying that Sonic wasn't annihilated. It invalidates the interpretation that Sonic's billionth ring brought him back from annihilation.

      There is zero evidence to assume the ring aura saved Sonic in Sonic Live. That is 100% basless cojecture. We are told in the comic that an electrical storm was causing people to teleport between dimentions. I can't believe I've had to say this three times, but that statement that Sonic was vaporized is from the Sonic News Network, it's not legitimate.

      Robotnik's clothes possibly being erased isn't proof Sonic was too. It opens up the possibility at best, but it's not proof because one does not necessitate the other, it's a complete non sequitur. The encyclopedia saying he wasn't erased, however, is proof that he wasn't. 

      I know you said it's not evidence, but them being gone for a billionth of a second doesn't in any way mean the ring we see is Sonic's billionth, that's also a non sequitur. Also, Mike Gallagher wrote 35 and Mecha Madness, Penders is only involved in that he was the head Sonic writer. That doesn't give him any more of an authority on it than Ian.

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    • > Penders is only involved in that he was the head Sonic writer. That doesn't give him any more of an authority on it than Ian.

      Before we move on, What do you believe the job of “Head writer,” entails?

      I will agree and disagree on your points but I need to get the subject of the Encyclopedia out of the way, due to its Meta nature.

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    • My point is Ian and Penders were both head writer; you can't dismiss the encyclopedia due to it not being written by the original writers when it's compiled and written by Ian and then say Pender's writing is more legitimate when it comes to the ring aura when he also wasn't the original writer.

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    • I’m not saying one has more legitimately than the other.

      I’m saying Ian Flynn didn’t add anything new in our understanding of the existence erasure in the Encyclopedia.

      In fact, the information in the Encyclopedia is lacking compared to what was described in the story.

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    • Then why mention the encyclopedia wasn't written by the original writers and then talk up Penders being an original writer as if it makes "a billionth of a second" relevant?

      The encyclopedia doesn't have to add anything, it just has to tell us what happened in the story, and what it tells us confirms what was said by the characters in the comic not a conclusion the reader can only come too when ignoring those characters.

      Like I said before though, it does add clarification by having Sonic blip and return with Mobius. The opposite of what the interpretation that gives Sonic immortality says.

      Something I want to make sure I understand, do you believe all of Mobius was annihilated with Robotnik or just Sonic was annihilated with him? If it's the former, how did Mobius come back and why is it defferent than the way Sonic did? If it's the later, why would the comic tell us otherwise?

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    • > Sonic blip and return with Mobius.

      That is not what the encyclopedia said. Don’t put words in its mouth. There is no statement in the comic or the encyclopedia saying that Sonic returned with Mobius. There is also no statement in the comic or the encyclopedia mentioning the fact that Sonic came out of a Ring.

      > do you believe all of Mobius was annihilated with Robotnik or just Sonic was annihilated with him? If it's the later, why would the comic tell us otherwise?

      The comic doesn’t tell us otherwise. It doesn’t say anything about Sonic himself. Dr. Quack’s Statements were just to prove why he didn’t do anything to stop the Ultimate Annihilator to save Knothole.

      No one in the comic mentions or talks about Sonic’s final fight with Robotnik, other than saying that Sonic the Hedgehog was the only one at Ground Zero of Existence erasure.

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    • The encyclopedia quote is:
      “Sonic and Mobius, meanwhile, only blipped out of existence for an instant before returning.”

      The quote proves Sonic was erased from existence, and stated both Sonic and Mobius came back from non-existence, which is clearly shown in the story.

      But the quote doesn’t mention Sonic and Mobius returning together.

      I mentioned the authors because clearly a couple of authors gave out more information about Sonic’s existence erasure through art than the one who wrote a short summary revealing nothing new.

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    • The quote even separates both

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    • Reiterating what the encyclopedia says isn't putting words in its mouth. It says "Sonic and Mobius [return]" there is no distinction between what happens to them, the only assumption that can be made is they returned the same way. You're putting "words" in the comic's mouth by inserting an unfounded theory into the narrative. Sonic coming out of a ring is a fact, but it still isn't proof that the ring aura brought Sonic back, that's an assumption.

      Except we are told otherwise, Dr. Quack says, "only Robotnik could be affected", and we don't have reason to doubt him. Super Special 6  implies the Annihilator overloading is what caused the unpredictable results we see, and the encyclopedia confirms both of these, only Robotnik was annihilated and the omega wave is what caused the other occurrences.

      It doesn't say "they came back together" but it gives us no reason to assume they didn't by saying "Sonic and Mobius [return]". If Sonic and Mobius did return different ways, why wouldn't it clarify that?



      How on earth is grouping them with an "and" seperating them? Using "and" is how you group things.

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    • Because the quote puts Sonic and Mobius as two diferent things, which isn't fone with the other frendom fighters Redditor

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    • What? The action of "blipping out of existence for an instant" is performed by Sonic and Mobius, there's no separation between what happens to them, that's why it says "Sonic and Mobius blipped". The only separation made is between what happened to Robotnik and Sonic (and by extension, Mobius, you know, because they're grouped together) by saying Robotnik was annihilated while Sonic only blipped. It's a way of saying Sonic wasn't annihilated like Robotnik without literally saying "Sonic wasn't annihilated like Robotnik" If there is a difference in what happened to Sonic and Mobius, why would the encyclopedia both not imply that and also word it in such a way that would lead someone to the opposite conclusion? Why would it say something happened to "Sonic and Mobius" if it didn't actually happen to both of them?

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    • Sonic wasn’t annihilate like Robotnik because of his immortality type 8.

      I’m in the middle of making a big response.

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    • Wait, so you're saying he wasn't annihilated at all, but he still blipped out of existence just like Mobius did, but apparently not for the same reason, because you said so I guess, and then was brought back because of his ring aura, with Mobius just conveniently also coming back on its own, and you got all of that, just from a ring being on panel? and I'm the one putting words in the comic's mouth?

      Unless I just misunderstood and you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason (see how me using "and" grouped them like that) but if they did blip for the same reason, why does Sonic need the ring aura to return when the rest of Mobius doesn't?

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    • > Unless I just misunderstood and you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason

      “ you are saying Sonic and Mobius blipped for the same reason”

      Woooooooooooooooowwwwwww. I never said that. That is a shady debate move on your part.

      I said “like Robotnik.” He was erased with Robotnik but he wasn’t annihilated for good like Robotnik.

      When I pointed out when you were interpreting the word “return” to mean a connection (as in, Interpreting the quote to mean they were erased and brought back with the same method), I correctly corrected you on that.

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    • "Shady" is removing the context of what I said. It's not shady to try to figure out what you're saying by asking questions. The admitted aggressiveness of the questions doesn't change their intent.

      I also didn't interpret "return" to mean a connection between Sonic and Mobius' experience, I said "and" connected them (because it does) It says "Sonic and Mobius" do something, that something being "blipping and returning" I put "return" in brackets because that's what you do when you change the tense of a word in a quote. (in retrospect, I don't think this is what you were referring to but I'm keeping it in the case that it was)

      With your clarification though, I feel like we're almost on the same page here, but diverging on interpreting the visuals or taking the comic at its word.

      The Omega Wave was the Annihilator's effect erasing everyone, but everyone, excluding Robotnik, came back almost immediately due to the fact that, just like we are told, only Robotnik could be destroyed. But if only Robotnik could be destroyed why was everyone erased by the Omega Wave to being with? Because the Annihilator overloaded, but again, since only Robotnik could truly be killed, everyone, including Sonic, came back. 

      The thing is, Sonic coming out of a ring isn't enough evidence to definitively say Sonic would have stayed annihilated without the ring aura. If we're given an explanation for how Sonic came back that doesn't require the ring aura, just like Sonic Live, we can't just add it into the narrative. There's no reason for Sonic to need the ring aura to come back if the rest of Mobius didn't.

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    • Honestly, this debate has made me see a lot of things in the bigger picture. I am grateful for this back-and-forth. It’s clear there’s no answer of fact for both sides of whether Sonic has resistance to EE or not.

      There is most likely and most likely not.

      So I’ve made a blog explaining all my thoughts that Sonic most likely has resistance to EE. I’m just adding links to panels and looking over for grammar.

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    • Let me know when you want to see it so I can post it all here.

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    • Yeah, one you finish the blog, go ahead and link it.

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    • Ok, here it is:

      Everything I wrote is important for the argument as a whole.

      https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElixirBlue/Type_8_Existence_Eraser

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    • I keep making additions to it.

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    • Ok, nnnnoooooooooowwwwwww I’m done editing it to make it look nice.

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    • And... I edited it again. I just want to get the wording right.

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    • I agree with Elixir.

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    • Oh yeah me too

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    • Would you want me to reply here or on the blog?

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    • Might as well do it here.

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    • I feel like the way a lot of this is written doesn't properly convey my tone (probably could have been formatted better too) but it's a lot of crap I don't want to reword.

      Just as an opening question: doesn't the fact Sonic was able to be erased mean he isn't resistant to EE? Even if the ring aura is what brought him back, it didn't keep him from being erased, it brought him back afterward. I mean, everyone else came back on their own without a special ring power, why don't they get resistance?

      There's no evidence either way that Robotnik's clothes were destroyed in 50, that's a big fat assumption. Him being brought back with clothes on in 108 doesn't prove anything for either of us. If they weren't destroyed, he'd need new clothes, and if they were destroyed, he'd still need new clothes. There's no reason for why he has clothes that wouldn't work in both scenarios. Robotnik believes the Annihilator has worked properly after hitting Knothole, despite the entire city being erased instead of just the Mobians. This (admittedly weirdly) implies that other things can be included with a person, but obviously not another person due to the purpose of the Annihilator. There's also that clothes seem to be considered "part of a person" when it comes to the roboticization process despite it supposedly affecting organic material. This means his clothes could be considered "part of him" for writing purposes (partially because comic logic, but still) If his clothes aren't considered "part of him" then why were they brought back with him?

      Yes, Sonic does have a ring aura that protects him, but that ring aura was shown to need outside assistance just to unroboticize him. Which heavily implies it shouldn't be able to bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence all on its own. We can't draw the conclusion that Sonic returned due to his ring aura based solely on a ring being on panel. You said yourself that there are no statements about Sonic coming out of the ring. Meaning there's no concrete reason to say it's the ring aura; everything you say about it you have to come up with yourself, which is just a fancy way of saying it's unsupported.

      The encyclopedia says Snivley "replaced" everyone's biodata with Robotnik's, no one else's was still programmed.

      How does Dr. Quack not knowing if Sally would wake up from a coma make him unreliable when talking about the Annihilator? Not only is that completely unrelated, but it's not even him being unreliable; real-life doctors also can't predict when people will wake up from comas (yes, this is fiction, but it still doesn't work as an argument) You also can't just declare he doesn't know how the Annihilator works for no reason. Him talking about its functions proves that he is more knowledgeable than you say. The encyclopedia even confirms that what he said Snivley did is correct. If he only knows about the neutron chip, how did he know this?

      The encyclopedia only mentioning Mobius blipped doesn't mean it's saying the Annihilator only affected the planet, it even mentions that the Omega Wave weakening the prime zone's boundaries. It doesn't contradict Locke's statement; it works in tandem with it. If the news said a bomb took out my entire city and I tell someone my house was destroyed, we're not contradicting each other, we're talking about different aspects of the same thing. I mean, in your own recap of the plot you only say Sonic and Robotnik vanished into White Space, but I understand that you aren't saying they were the only ones affected by the Omega Wave.

      Unless you're arguing semantics "an instant" and "billionth of a second" mean the same thing. The encyclopedia doesn't have to repeat Locke's exact words to get the same meaning across, it's not vague at all. The encyclopedia also doesn't separate what actually happens to Sonic and Mobius, and that's what's relevant. It mentioning Sonic specifically doesn't matter when he performs the same action as Mobius; he's mentioned to better separate him from Robotnik as it was just talking about the both of them prior. It doesn't contradict what Locke says at all. It's just like when you said "Sonic and Robotnik faded into White Space", you listing Sonic and Robotnik separatly doesn't mean they didn't both fade into White Space. If "Sonic and Robotnik faded" means they both faded, then "Sonic and Mobius [returned]" would mean they both returned, no separation. Could the encyclopedia have been clearer? Sure, but it could have been clearer a lot of different ways about a lot of different things, not just this, it was as clear as it needed to be.

      The belief that Dr. Quack and Locke are mouthpieces for the author is validated by the encyclopedia repeating what they said (not verbatim mind you) as part of its narrative, solidifying that what they said was correct.


      Coming to the conclusion that Sonic has type 8 relies exclusively on assumptions. (it can hardly be considered a conclusion really) We have to assume that the encyclopedia isn't as straight forward as it's written because we have to assume Sonic coming out of a ring means the ring aura brought him back because we have to assume Sonic couldn't come back like everyone else because we have to assume Sonic was going to stay annihilated because we have to assume Robotnik's clothes stayed erased because we have to assume that would for some reason cause Sonic's situation to change somehow.

      But we don't have to assume any of that, if Sonic came back with Mobius the way it's (effectively) said in the encyclopedia, that's all that needs to have happened. No other story details need to be added, no blanks need to be filled in. And even if you want to argue that that is also an assumption (it really isn't) it's still only one far simpler assumption compared to at least four baseless ones.

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    • Ok, So you’re starting to repeat things I’ve already addressed in my blog about perception and that there was no definitive answer. So I’m only going to respond to the ones that I feel are important to address.

      Everything else I’ve already addressed in my blog and won’t repeat myself.

      • doesn't the fact Sonic was able to be erased mean he isn't resistant to EE?

      Yeah. I said resist, not be immune to Existence Erasure.

      Resistance: the refusal to accept or comply with something; the attempt to prevent something by action or argument.

      Immunity: A. the state of being immune from or insusceptible to a particular disease or the like.

      B. Exemption from any natural or usual liability.

      • everyone else came back on their own without a special ring power, why don't they get resistance?

      Already explain that part in the blog using all the evidence at once.

      • There's no evidence either way that Robotnik's clothes were destroyed in 50, that's a big fat assumption. Him being brought back with clothes on in 108 doesn't prove anything for either of us. If they weren't destroyed, he'd need new clothes, and if they were destroyed, he'd still need new clothes. There's no reason for why he has clothes that wouldn't work in both scenarios.

      Already explain that in my blog. Him hypothetically needing new clothes isn’t a counter Argument.

      • Robotnik believes the Annihilator has worked properly after hitting Knothole, despite the entire city being erased instead of just the Mobians. This (admittedly weirdly) implies that other things can be included with a person, but obviously not another person due to the purpose of the Annihilator.

      Further evidence that Dr. Quack’s Meta Information isn’t to be trusted. I don’t get where you can use the word “Obviously”. You haven’t proved anything. You can try proving your reasoning with Dr. Quack’s Statement but you kind of just discredited Dr. Quack’s statement further.

      • This means his clothes could be considered "part of him" for writing purposes (partially because comic logic, but still) If his clothes aren't considered "part of him" then why were they brought back with him?

      Comic logic. What a way to discredit my argument. “Part of him?” Part of your argument when it comes to reality warping is that you’re claiming it has a conscious. Do you want my answer? Because his clothes were touching Robotnik.

      • shown to need outside assistance just to unroboticize him. Which heavily implies it shouldn't be able to bring Sonic back from a state of non-existence all on its own.

      What? It was still stated and shown that it protect his life force from Robotnik’s “Brain Burn”. Sonic’s Life Force was going to be a erased from Existence if it wasn’t for the Ring.

      • You said yourself that there are no statements about Sonic coming out of the ring.

      There isn’t a need for statements by characters. We can see it happening. If you want a statement, Sonic says “I’m still here! Part of me anyway!”

      As for the point of Sonic Ring’s not having statements by other characters, that doesn’t discredit the ring that saved Sonic.

      • The encyclopedia says Snivley "replaced" everyone's biodata with Robotnik's, no one else's was still programmed.

      Replaced, Alter, aren’t the terms that relate to deletion from the system.

      • (Dr. Quack) You also can't just declare he doesn't know how the Annihilator works for no reason.

      I did give a reason. Read the blog.

      • The encyclopedia even confirms that what he said Snivley did is correct. If he only knows about the neutron chip, how did he know this?

      Read the Blog.

      • The encyclopedia only mentioning Mobius blipped doesn't mean it's saying the Annihilator only affected the planet, it even mentions that the Omega Wave weakening the prime zone's boundaries. It doesn't contradict Locke's statement; it works in tandem with it.

      No it doesn’t. In story, when you say Mobius, you were talking about the planet. Naugus created the Zone of Silence without effecting the entire Prime Zone Universe. The statement from Universe to Mobius does change the meaning.

      No it doesn’t

      Yes it does, by how the story treats the word “Mobius”. Especially if you treat the encyclopedia the end-all be-all for information.

      • If the news said a bomb took out my entire city and I tell someone my house was destroyed, we're not contradicting each other, we're talking about different aspects of the same thing.

      So, in this scenario, is the Encyclopedia the news or is Locke the news? I would think the encyclopedia would take the news’s job in this scenario.

      So, then if the news says only your house was destroyed but you say the city was destroyed, who am I to believe? The news or one individual?

      I don’t think I’m gonna answer the rest of this. I feel like I’m gonna continue having to say the same things.

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      • I feel like the way a lot of this is written doesn't properly convey my tone (probably could have been formatted better too) but it's a lot of crap I don't want to reword.

      I understand but I spent two days working on my blog continuously. I’m ready to end this thread.

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    • The bit about my tone and formatting was referring to my last comment not your blog. I originally had it at the end which, in retrospect, better conveys that, but I moved it to the beginning to act as a preface. I apologize for any confusion.

      Both of us have effectively been repeating ourselves for almost a week. I mean, my reply to basically all your responses could either be "the OP explains this" or "one of my previous comments explains this" There's only two things that seem necessary to add. The first is you seem to be under the impression that I believe the encyclopedia acts as a replacement for what's said in the comic rather than the summary it is, but considering I said they work in tandem, this is clearly not the case. The second is that beyond the shakey reasoning for type 8 based on issue 50, it's still proven false by Mephelis.

      Since it's not linked on either Mobius Encyclopedia or Sonic News Network for some reason, I went to find the actual quote from Ian that 06 is canon. (because somehow a plot summary wasn't enough proof already)

      He mentions that, naturaly, the stories are not one to one. This would obviously mean the encyclopedia's recount of 06 is the version canon to Archie. (note: I am not saying that only events specifically mentioned in the encyclopedia happened, but rather, that if it says something happened, it did, regardless of what the game says) Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death, the ambiguousness of the game is irrelevant. This means the belief that Sonic's ring aura can resurect him is not only inconsistant with what we see in Mecha Madness but directly disproven by the encyclopedia.

      I do agree that I would like this to be over, so I apologize.

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    • I don’t like the main argument of it not being Eggman specific being “but he kept his clothes.” Like, that’s the epitome of nitpicking.

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    • > it's still proven false by Mephelis.

      > Since the encyclopedia is definitive about Sonic's death,

      > saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog and the release of Iblis.

      > CANON

      • Sonic Adventure (DX)
      • Sonic Adventure 2 (Battle)
      • Shadow the Hedgehog
      • Sonic the Hedgehog ("Sonic06" - retcon'd itself into not being!)
      • Sonic Riders
      • Sonic Rush
      • Sonic Rush Adventure

      ... what, Do you want to claim this is definitive proof, when same man said “Shadow the Hedgehog” is canon to Archie Sonic and the events of that game don’t even happen Except for Shadow’s backstory.

      You want to claim Archie Sonic’s 06 events played 1-to-1 exactly like the Game’s, with the encyclopedia not even mentioning how Sonic died?

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    • Again, nuke immeasurable then. Because Solaris (Archie Comics) is a thing.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: I don’t like the main argument of it not being Eggman specific being “but he kept his clothes.” Like, that’s the epitome of nitpicking.

      • Robotnik’s (the 1st Robotnik wasn’t called Eggman) clothes and Metal Arm disappear from existence and reappear from non existence with him.
      • The entirety of Knothole disappears from the screen and Robotnik cheers at the success he thought he had.
      • Locke saying that the entire Universe was wiped out of existence for a billionth of a second.

      These are all supporting evidence that Dr. Quack’s statement of only “Bio-Data being effected” should not be trusted as meta-information.

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    • Cal, you fucking know that's not the only reason for immesurable, plus Elixir is arguing 1-1, not that It didn't happen, immesurable is part of his core character

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    • Also, Foney missed the entire point of me being up Dr. Quack’s statement about Sally. I suspect he didn’t read my blog thoroughly enough.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Again, nuke immeasurable then. Because Solaris (Archie Comics) is a thing.

      Hahahahahahahaha!

      No. I feel like you know that's wrong too. Not only can Sonic move at Immeasurable speeds in Ultra (Yes, Cal, Immeasurable can come from travelling through time), but weapons like the Sword of Acorns should have Immeasurable attack speed via ripping across the Chaos Force (Which is beyond Space-Time), and Mogul tagging the Ancient Walkers.

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    • We were both there at the upgrade. Yes it is. I know becuase that’s one of the few drunk nights I remember fully.

      Also heck no. It’s not a corr part of his character. It’s a throwaway line by Eggman during the fight. It’s much MUCH less integral to the plot than Sonic dying which is the catalyst to Elise crying and releasing Iblis.

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    • Edited my post.

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    • I’ll respond to said edited post in a second. Cooking. But Discord (IDW) was supposed to be downgraded ages ago. I made that darn downgrade thread.

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    • I thought the downgrade was just rejected tbh.

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    • Realized how quickly I could respond while cooking...

      Simply moving in a higher dimensional plane is no longer grounds for immeasurable. Otherwise people like Kevin Brashear would be irrelevant (don’t ask. Marvel shit.)

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    • Which still leaves Mogul 420 no-scoping the Ancient Boomers and Solaris.

      Also I'm not sure what you're sugfesting about Solaris. Sure, if the "Sonic does" thing is removed from the profile (speaking hypothetically) then obviously not everything is the same. But Solaris is one of those things where he's Immeasurable no matter how you slice and dice it while Iblis could've been released through different means of Elise crying. Again, I'm speaking hypotheticals here, I'm not actually arguing this.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: I don’t like the main argument of it not being Eggman specific being “but he kept his clothes.” Like, that’s the epitome of nitpicking.

      There's more to it than that, don't be ignorant. If an argument is literally "It only affected Eggman's DNA", then it erasing not only his clothes but also a robot arm that is in no way genetically related to him needs to be answered for.

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    • Then it’s a plot hole. Don’t act like fiction is always 100% consistent with itself. Plot holes, animation errors, etc happen all the time. Goku wound up in the afterlife wearing his weighted clothing, but he didn’t even die in those. Does that man Goku never died or something like that? The ninja turtles had their weapons in a scene despite them explicitly haven been taken away. Teleporting weapons?

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    • There's only so much where you can go "plot hole lol". Especially if there is additional evidence to aid in the argument fornit being EE, which is what seperates this from all of the examples you've named.

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    • Dude, it’s outright said that it was recalibrated to only work on Eggman. I haven’t read the entire thing because there’s like, three threads, but if the best argument is that he wasn’t a buck-ass naked amputee upon coming back, then I don’t hesitate to call that a nitpicking non-argument.

      Btw, I said it like that for humor purposes, not out of aggression.

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    • I went very detailed on everything going on in that event if you would like to read it in the blog, Cal.

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    • I had links~

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Dude, it’s outright said that it was recalibrated to only work on Eggman. I haven’t read the entire thing because-

      This is where I stop arguing with you lol. Cal, theres an entire blog dedicated to it for a reason. Why are you even bothering to argue if you haven't even read it? C'mon now, don't waste our time

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    • That’s like a half an hour read in which I haven’t had the time because I’m a College Student

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    • Then you can’t really try to debunk my argument lol

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    • Actually, I should add in Foney’s suggestion about Knothole turning into a crater and Robotnik thinking his machine worked into the blog as further evidence of Dr. Quack not being trusted in his Meta-information about the workings of the Ultimate Annihilator and “Bio Data”.

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    • Kevin Brashear? Blue Marvel had a son? Sorry, irrelevant, I just like Blue Marvel

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    • It doesn't matter if you say Dr. Quack is unreliable about meta-information just because he didn't know Sally was about to wake up, something that would be impossible for him to know anyway, or that he shouldn't know how the Annihilator works. The encyclopedia repeats what he says about the Annihilator targeting bio-data and Snively's meddling, confirming that he is both knowledgeable and correct, and that isn't even meta-information anyway, it's in-universe knowledge.

      Robotnik's clothes being destroyed, again, doesn't necessitate Sonic being destroyed too, that's a non sequitur.

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    • You want to claim Archie Sonic’s 06 events played 1-to-1 exactly like the Game’s, with the encyclopedia not even mentioning how Sonic died?

      Did you miss the part where Ian said the stories would be partialy to heavily tweaked? Did you miss when I literally said the stories aren't one to one? Just like the in-comic adaptations of the games, the 06 summary was written specifically for the Archie canon. If Sonic possibly dying in the game's narrative was problematic it could have been removed, but it wasn't, it was made even more definitive. Sonic's death wouldn't be written in such a clear cut way if the intention wasn't for him to be dead. It also shouldn't matter how Mephelis did it considering Sonic can allegedly come back from EE.

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    • > saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog

      Archie Sonic Comic Encyclopedia’s phrase has as much supporting evidence as the phrase “The Death of Superman” when he fought Doomsday.

      Especially when we know Archie Sonic 06 isn’t a 1-to-1 adaption just like “Shadow the Hedgehog” was label canon by Ian Flynn without any of the events happening in the Comic from that game.

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    • Death of Superman is a comic title while "the death of Sonic" is a thing said to have happened, they're not equatable. Wasn't Superman being in a "healing coma" or whatever instead of dying a retcon anyway? There was a whole scrapped clone story, but I don't remember the details. Whatever, why would the encyclopedia say something as straight forward as "death of Sonic" if the intention wasn't for him to be dead? If it was trying to say something vague, why would it say it in such a non-vague way?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: That’s like a half an hour read in which I haven’t had the time because I’m a College Student

      Cal I legit finished it in a five minute skim because I didn't look at scans. Purely for the read to get the basic arguments. And don't pull that shit on me, because I'm a College Student too. You saying that doesn't mean anything to me. Either you read the blog to avoid wasting our time, or leave the thread until you do.

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    • I don’t know where you getting this “non vague” thing from. Since it’s not a 1-to-1 adaption, for all we know, Mephiles got the 1 Billionth away from Sonic that allowed Sonic to be kill by him.

      “saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog” is too vague of a term to accurately say what happened.

      I couldn’t post anything for the longest time.

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    • Bruh, you know I’m a mechanical engineering major, who’s doubling with a frat. I have to balance social life as well as being able to balance classes at a top 100 school, which I’m struggling at because I procrastinate like I’m an early Spongebob episode. I haven’t been on the wiki in three days before yesterday, as I wanted to study my ass off for tests I was still unprepared for. If you feel my pain, you’d want to die, and you don’t want to die.

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    • As if you know that

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    • The story not being 1-to-1 doesn't mean we can add whatever self-affirming information we want into it. Mephelis doing something to remove Sonic's aura to make him vulnerable is a massive assumption and would be worth mentioning if it had to be done in order to kill Sonic. Not to mention it would effectively make Mephelis the strongest Archie character since he somehow removed/overcame Sonic's ring aura, something more powerful characters like Mogul and Enerjak couldn't do.


      "The death of Sonic" is not a vauge statement, he died.

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    • What are the summarised conclusions here, and are there any staff members you could ask to help out?

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    • Immortality negation when? OvO

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    • Actualy yeah, Mephiles "killing" Sonic could just be that

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    • Cal hasn't stated his full stance yet, but I assume he will once he finds the time to read through everything.

      I also requested Celestial Pegasus and Redgrave for imput when they have the time.

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    • Okay.

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    • I hope they actually read the Blog. Foney doesn’t seem like he did.

      Because of that, I don’t want to repeat myself anymore.

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    • you could repost the blog here with all the tabbers if people really try to ignore it

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Ok, here it is:

      Everything I wrote is important for the Type 8 Immortality as a whole.

      https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElixirBlue/Type_8_Existence_Eraser

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    • Theuser789 wrote: you could repost the blog here with all the tabbers if people really try to ignore it

      Do Tabbers translate to the Threads well?

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    • I think so? I have seen people use it in big threads, don't ask me how tho

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Bruh, you know I’m a mechanical engineering major, who’s doubling with a frat. I have to balance social life as well as being able to balance classes at a top 100 school, which I’m struggling at because I procrastinate like I’m an early Spongebob episode. I haven’t been on the wiki in three days before yesterday, as I wanted to study my ass off for tests I was still unprepared for. If you feel my pain, you’d want to die, and you don’t want to die.

      At least you take time off the site, better than me during exams lol.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: The story not being 1-to-1 doesn't mean we can add whatever self-affirming information we want into it. Mephelis doing something to remove Sonic's aura to make him vulnerable is a massive assumption and would be worth mentioning if it had to be done in order to kill Sonic. Not to mention it would effectively make Mephelis the strongest Archie character since he somehow removed/overcame Sonic's ring aura, something more powerful characters like Mogul and Enerjak couldn't do.


      "The death of Sonic" is not a vauge statement, he died.

      >  Mephelis doing something to remove Sonic's aura to make him vulnerable is a massive assumption

      The story states Sonic doesn’t lose. That something making it so Sonic can win. It’s not an assumption if the Story’s canon states Something is protecting Sonic and Mephiles still was able to kill Sonic.

      Foney, you are the one using Sonic’s death at the hands of Mephiles as a counter to the story’s narrative but your counter doesn’t have any details behind it.

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    • It even says “saw the Death of Sonic the Hedgehog”.

      That line doesn’t even say Mephiles killed Sonic.

      (Note to Staff who skim the thread: Archie Sonic games adaptation aren’t 1-to-1 adaptations from the games. Ian Flynn says “Shadow the Hedgehog” was canon without any of the events happening other than Shadow’s backstory.)

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    • I hope they actually read the Blog. Foney doesn’t seem like he did.
      Unknown-1-
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    • Oh yeah, the Black Arms never met Shadow in Archie, Elixir is right

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: It doesn't matter if you say Dr. Quack is unreliable about meta-information just because he didn't know Sally was about to wake up,

      It was more than just Sally. Sally was just 1 out of many evidence I had in my blog to prove Dr. Quack is unreliable as Meta Information. They all mattered as one.

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    • You had two pieces of evidence, and I talked about both of them.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: You had two pieces of evidence, and I talked about both of them.

      XD You saying that is proof enough that you didn’t read the blog.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      Oh yeah, the Black Arms never met Shadow in Archie, Elixir is right

      The Black Arms still made Shadow in Archie, making at least part of the game canon, which is all that's necessary since all adaptations are "considered at least partialy tweaked, if not heavily". Them not retuning from their battle with the Xorda (seemingly due to Sega interference) doesn't mean Ian's wrong about anything.

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    • Yes, wrong, Since Ian Flynn made a blanket statement saying that “Shadow the Hedgehog” is canon as well as “Sonic 06” is canon in Archie Sonic’s lore.

      Due to how Shadow the Hedgehog was adapted, you can’t claim anything about how Archie Sonic 06 happened.

      The only claims you can make is how the Sonic 06 story should have gone with Archie Sonic’s Established narrative. Which is that Sonic doesn’t lose. So how would you kill Sonic in that Established narrative? Just take away what helps Sonic win.

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    • Adventure 2 was stated to have happened but we saw in Sonic Universe it happened completely diferent from game as well, 06 can easily be the same

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    • You literally say, "There are two points that puts Dr. Quack’s reliability of his Meta commentary into question."

      Your arguments that his statement was made in regard to a normally functioning Annihilator and he was only explaing why he didn't act aren't arguments about his meta information.

      The Annihilator overloading (something Dr. Quack knew had happened) doesn't mean he was wrong about it's function. From a meta standpoint, his statement is what explains why only Robotnik stayed destroyed. Yes, he is explaining why he didn't act but he also says things turned out the way he hoped.

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    • You guys can't claim Ian is wrong becuase the stories happen differently when he said the stories happen differently.

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    • So why can't Mephiles have immortality negation then? It is diferent from the games

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: You guys can't claim Ian is wrong becuase the stories happen differently when he said the stories happen differently.

      Oh, I was saying you are wrong. Ian himself hasn’t made any details to make us wrong.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: You literally say, "There are two points that puts Dr. Quack’s reliability of his Meta commentary into question."

      Oh, that is my bad. Let me go back in the blog and edit in “an additional two points“.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Your arguments that his statement was made in regard to a normally functioning Annihilator and he was only explaing why he didn't act aren't arguments about his meta information.

      Yes they are. Not by themselves but along with every other Inconsistency I point out, it establishes Dr. Quack’s Meta credibility into question.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: The Annihilator overloading (something Dr. Quack knew had happened) doesn't mean he was wrong about it's function. From a meta standpoint, his statement is what explains why only Robotnik stayed destroyed. Yes, he is explaining why he didn't act but he also says things turned out the way he hoped.

      It doesn’t mean that he’s wrong. My blog establish a couple things.

      1. Does Dr. Quack have more Credibility on the U.A. than Dr. Robotnik, who made of reactions that go against Dr. Quack’s statement about “Bio Data” only affecting those that are in the system?

      2. His statement does align with Robotnik’s permanent disappearance, but in those final moments, Dr. Robotnik made reactions that go against Dr. Quack’s statement that originally sounded clear cut, as I pointed out throughout my blog.

      3. Was Dr. Quack the right person to Establish a clear understanding of all the events?

      4. Dr. Quack hoped. He prayed on chance for everything to be ok. Good for him.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      So why can't Mephiles have immortality negation then? It is diferent from the games

      Because that's confirmation bias. The story being different doesn't mean we can add our own ideas to it. We can't say Mephelis has a power on the grounds that we aren't told he doesn't have that power.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote:
      So why can't Mephiles have immortality negation then? It is diferent from the games

      Because that's confirmation bias. The story being different doesn't mean we can add our own ideas to it. We can't say Mephelis has a power on the grounds that we aren't told he doesn't have that power.

      I agree with Foney on this. We can’t put “Immortality Negation” on Mephiles since we don’t know what happened.

      But it is because we don’t know what happened, we can’t use Sonic’s death from the Encyclopedia that uses no details as evidence against Ring Aura.

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    • This is not a reply to 111, don't know how that happened.

      1. Does Robotnik have more credibility than the encyclopedia, which also says the Annihilator targets bio-data?

      2. But then why would the encyclopedia repeat the information Dr. Quack told us as if it were true if it actually wasn't?

      3. There could possibly have been better people to relay information (Snively is the only one I can think of off the top of my head) but Dr. Quack wasn't the wrong person given what he knew. 

      4. Even after he gained the knowledge that the Annihilator didn't function properly and overloaded, he doesn't imply things happened differently than he thought.

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    • 1. Yes, Since the encyclopedia is just regurgitating Dr. Quack’s statement and Locke’s without adding Anything new to our understanding the situation.

      I’ve already said this in my blog, which is why I keep questioning if you actually read it.

      2. Because it had nothing new to add.

      3. I already explained with several different points in the blog why Dr. Quack was ill fit to give Meta information on why Sonic didn’t resist EE. Resisting EE, not be immune by EE, to clarify again.

      4. Dr. Quack didn’t question his knowledge because he found Sonic to be ok, despite being at Ground Zero. However, since he didn’t see the ring, he wouldn’t assume Sonic survived with different means.

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    • I feel like we're again at the point where we're repeating ourselves. It should probably wait until staff input.

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    • I just added that bit of Dr. Quack’s character not assuming Sonic survived using a different means into the blog.

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    • wait so what im getting here is that sonic's immortality should be removed because he died several times in the story and his type 8 is more to outside help is what the OP said? And the other side noted there could just be immortality negging?

      Sorry if im summing up too much been busier than i thought and vague knowledge on the archies side of things :V

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    • Sonic hasn’t died in story. His death was alluded to in The encyclopedia by Mephiles’s actions, for a Sonic 06 tie in. Foney is using that fact of Sonic’s death being stated in an encyclopedia as evidence against Type 8 immortality.

      But Type 8 Immortality comes from his 1 Billionth Ring, not like Sonic himself is biologically Type 8.

      “saw the death of Sonic the Hedgehog” is too vague of a term to accurately say what happened.

      Ian Flynn has made a blanket statement saying that “Shadow the Hedgehog” is canon as well as “Sonic 06” is canon in Archie Sonic’s lore. Due to how “Shadow the Hedgehog” was “adapted”, you can’t claim anything about how Archie Sonic 06 happened. Sonic’s death could’ve happened by being separated from his 1 Billionth Ring. There are no details from the encyclopedia.

      The only claims you can make is how the Sonic 06 story should have gone with Archie Sonic’s established narrative.

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    • My stance is that there isn't enough substantial evidence to definitively say Sonic has type 8 in the first place.

      Sonic's death(s) and the ring aura requiring outside assistance to perform a less impressive feat are to show that even in the face of potential evidence of type 8, it is inconsistent and still should not be granted.

      At risk of sounding dismissive, Mephelis having immortality negation is both inconsistent and unfounded with seemingly its only purpose being to keep him from discrediting type 8 and it's only evidence being that we aren't told he doesn't have immortality negation.

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    • That’s why I’m saying the lack of information around Archie Sonic 06’s death should treat the death as non-evidence due to it requiring game events to fill in the cracks of knowledge when the Archie Sonic Comic itself has vastly different interpretations on what “adaption” for game events it chooses to use.

      Take Sonic Unleashed’s adaption in Post Genesis Wave. Sonic Unleashed events were caused by the Worlds Collide Arc.

      What caused Archie Sonic 06’s Sonic death is unknown. It can’t be used as evidence against Type 8.

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    • Bump

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    • So what's the precedent on re-asking a staff for input?

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    • I think that’s “Could you give input again since the thread is going nowhere?”

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    • The Staff would have to read everything to gauge the arguments, including my blog. It would take a bit for them, considering how busy they tend to be.

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    • Also the only knowledgeable staff on Archie is Cal who’s already here sooo

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    • Ask Executor, he was the Archie expert even only being a calc member

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    • Ah yeah forgot about him although he did not really like to get involved with Archie Sonic, maybe his opinion has changed however or he’ll make an exception for this one.

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    • I meant how long should I wait to ask again since I don't want to pester them. I forgot about Executor, I requested input.

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    • For a busy mechanical engineering college student? 5 years.

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    • You should wait for at least 100 years, that's a good number

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    • Dark649 and Sera also know much about Sonic, but the former is missing and the latter is tired of the topic.

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    • What is being proposed here? I don't have enough time to read all this.

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    • My stance is that there isn't enough substantial evidence to definitively say Sonic has type 8 and it should be removed.

      I additionally put forth that Sonic's death(s) and his ring aura requiring outside assistance to perform a lesser feat are evidence that even in the face of potential evidence of type 8, it would be inconsistent and still should not be granted.

      Most of my reasoning and scans are in the OP.

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    • Well, Type 8 Immortality is Immortality based on an object that grants you Immortality. And I'd like to see some examples from the Archie comics.

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    • And I have countered Foney’s points and I have proven that Sonic’s “death” (Only the one, as Silver’s future “Sonic death“ isn’t a “Sonic death” as I pointed out above) at the hands of Mephiles can’t be used as evidence against Sonic’s Type 8.

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    • This is the only example. The object is a special ring Sonic has, but immortality is not said to be one of its powers and the comic never actually tells us it's why he came back, that can only be extrapolated by the reader.

      The context for the scene is explained in the OP, context that does not support type 8. There is also context for an instance of Sonic's ring requiring outside assistance to perform a lesser feat, further showing his ring didn't revive him, because it wouldn't even be able to.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: This is the only example.

      Wrong and misleading.

      In Sonic Live, Sonic legitimately got vaporized and survived. There’s nothing to contradict the SwatBots that fired and hit Sonic wasn’t with vaporizing beams.

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    • Didn't Sonic get sent to some world where he was helped out by some kids to get back? Seems like a Hereafter case.

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    • This is a world?

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    • You and I both know that there's panels after this.

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    • I have already told and showed you that Sonic was teleported by the human's unnamed device.

      Stop using that quote saying he was vaporized, I have said multiple times that that is from the Sonic News Network not an official source.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: You and I both know that there's panels after this.

      After sure, where is he now right after getting vaporized?

      AFA73EFB-1179-44AB-B33C-82705E748C7F
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    • Again, you're intentionally removing context. That's like if I showed you this without any context and said "Superman came back from this so High regen," ignoring the fact that he got sent through time.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Again, you're intentionally removing context. That's like if I showed you this without any context and said "Superman came back from this so High regen," ignoring the fact that he got sent through time.

      You are forgetting Superman has statements of being sent through time by Toy Man, when Sonic in Sonic Live doesn’t have any such statement.

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    • No he doesn't. Literally everybody on the planet thinks he's dead except for Batman, who's going through denial. From Lois to Diana to Lex Luthor to Lobo. The only person to know Superman is still alive is Superman himself.

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    • It sounds like the ring does grant Sonic resurrection.

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    • It is a place, a place he was sent when the human's device started making random portals due to an electrical storm

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    • The real cal howard wrote: No he doesn't. Literally everybody on the planet thinks he's dead except for Batman, who's going through denial. From Lois to Diana to Lex Luthor to Lobo. The only person to know Superman is still alive is Superman himself.

      2:40 Superman himself states Toy Man sent him into the future. Again, Archie Sonic is not given an explanation or statement like that in Sonic Live.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: It is a place, a place he was sent when the human's device started making random portals due to an electrical storm

      Coincidence. There is nothing there stating the machine was responsible for Sonic surviving/being saved from Vaporization.

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    • Yeah, the Superman example is not that Toy Man vaporizes things. But he has a canon that teleports objects to the future. So that sounds like a lousy comparison.

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    • Are you serious? It's just a coincidence that instead of returning to where he was like in 50, Sonic got sent to the same in-between zone that the human's device was creating portals through? Why does the comic need to explicitly say that the device was the reason he was sent to the in-between zone, despite that being the entire stroy of the comic, but it doesn't have to say he was vaporized and revived for you to believe it?

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    • You’re kidding, right? Literally just watch the episode. The whole point is that Superman is seemingly dead. The only, and I repeat only, people who know Supes is alive is Superman and Vandal Savage in the post apocalyptic future. Not a single other person thinks he survives the blast. Superman survives because he got BFR’d. This is undeniably analogous to this situation, but it’s space instead of time with Sonic.

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    • To be completely fair, one favors Occam's Razor and one goes against it.

      To assume the human's device somehow affected Sonic when there's no such statement is going against Occam's Razor.

      To assume Sonic was simply vaporized when there's nothing left behind when the blast connects and isn't related to random business is what Occam's Razor favors.

      Not arguing here, just saying.

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    • Pretty sure the Occam’s Razor favors that the blasts accidentally BFR him as opposed to it vaporizing him, but cosmic shenanigans not only reconstruct him, but send him to an alternate in between world.

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    • Swatbots can't BFR with their beams, Cal. They're typical lasers/blasts and whatnot, and Swatbots never had this ability with their guns

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    • @Cal But Superman’s situation was cleared up by an explanation in story. It’s insulting that you apply another series’s explanations (DC animation) to another series (Archie Sonic) that had no explanation.

      @Foney “Why does the comic need to explicitly say that the device was the reason”

      Hypocrite. Foney, the hypocrite. Your argument against Sonic surviving EE is that the story didn’t explicitly say Sonic survived it, holding onto Dr. Quack’s statement when I have countered it in multiple ways, and yet you now claim the story doesn’t need to explicitly state the machine was responsible for Sonic’s survival of vaporization to fit your headcanon?

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    • Elixir, buddy, make sure not to get worked up. Take it easy

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    • For once, I actually do think Elixer is making more sense. Lasers teleporting things as opposed to just vaporizing them isn't really a standard assumption. Unless it's literally shown and explained like the Superman example. As Superman was also shown sleeping in the pile of rubble, which was all the same inanimate objects that Toy Man allegedly vaporized. And Batman himself said there should have been smoke or other substance, which there was none in the atmosphere.

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    • Isn't the more obvious explanation for Eggman not being naked at any point because A) he's Eggman and B) it's a children's comic and who would want to see that anyway?

      If that isn't the obvious answer, here's another hot take: couldn't Eggman's clothes be composed of organic material, such as cotton, and leather?

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    • We're told that a device is randomly teleporting people through dimensions and Sonic ends up in the same place those teleported things go through. 

      Occam's Razor definitely favors Sonic being sent there by the device over applying an ability that, in addition to also going against Occam's Razor, couldn't have been established yet, Sonic Live came out half a year before 50.

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    • A Stoned Orc wrote: Isn't the more obvious explanation for Eggman not being naked at any point because A) he's Eggman and B) it's a children's comic and who would want to see that anyway?

      Say hello to a children’s cartoon of that era.

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      A Stoned Orc wrote: If that isn't the obvious answer, here's another hot take: couldn't Eggman's clothes be composed of organic material, such as cotton, and leather?

      That goes completely against Robotnik’s character and does not explain the Metal arm.

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    • How on earth am I being a hypocrite? You're choosing to believe Sonic wasn't teleported by the device because we aren't explicitly told that while also choosing to believe type 8 when we aren't explicitly told that either.

      In both Sonic Live and issue 50, we're given an explanation for what happens in the comic that doesn't involve Sonic having type 8, and they either aren't contradicted (Live is never mentioned) or supported (the encyclopedia agrees with Quack) by supplementary material. Saying Sonic has type 8 when the comic explains events in ways that don't necessitate it is silly.

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    • “We're told that a device is randomly teleporting people through dimensions“

      This is starting to get Ridiculous. There is nothing stating that it’s randomly teleporting people.

      It’s just randomly creating portals, not teleporting people. There’s no such statement.

      Foney, can you stop making things up?

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    • They're pulled through a portal at a point. The device "created a link between dimensions" and Sonic ends up between those dimensions. It makes infinitely more sense for the device to have sent him there than a power that may or may not exist and wasn't even possibly introduced until half a year later.

      Hey, it's like 2AM, I'll check this out tomorrow, maybe you won't make more rude accusations then.

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    • Ok, good night.

      “Makes infinitely more sense”

      The device that has only been making portals consistently throughout the story and then is inconsistently teleporting Sonic as he was getting Vaporized makes sense to you, Foney.

      Doesn’t make a lick of sense to me.

      Also, let’s remember this was the only time Sonic felt pain in this story.

      74569C92-D350-40E1-BBD1-4C5CCBD91D0F
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    • Yeah, that is smoke there; appears to be vaporization.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: maybe you won't make more rude accusations then.

      I felt like you are being rude to me. You used wording like “We are told” when it came to random teleportation as if it was told or shown and that it is fact when it wasn’t anywhere in the story. Maybe you mis-assumed. Idk.

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    • @Medeus

      So what should we do here?

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    • The assumption that the laser BFR’d Sonic is flawed when not only have the SWATbots never shown to BFR with their lasers, but Robotnik who manufactured them in that panel says that it will blast Sonic to smithereens. This is to clearly indicate that Sonic’s body was vaporized and then was regenerated in another zone.

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    • Yeah, I think Elixer is making sense that the ring does indeed revive/regenerate Sonic as he gets destroyed. The teleportation assumption isn't really explained, and it's not quite like the DCAU example Cal brought up where Toy Man's invention actually was confirmed to simply teleport objects to the future as opposed to vaporizing them. The SwatBots literally just blast objects to smithereens as Shadow mentioned. So I think Resurrection and/or Immortality type 8 based on the ring is fine.

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    • My argument isn't that the SWATbots are what sent Sonic to the in-between zone, it's that the human's device, which teleports things through the in-between zone, sent Sonic there when it created the link between their dimentions. Sonic being revived into the in-between zone is inconsistant with the way he was allegedly revived in issue 50. The device sending him there is consistent with the story.

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    • Cal's argument was the thing people we're commenting on about the BFR, not anything you said in particular.

      Also I'm pretty sure the argument was that their device is the reason Sonic ended up in-between Zones, which nobody denied, but was not the reason why he survived in the first place iirc. And we know he was actualy affected by the lasers because of his expression on pain from the contact of the beams. And if what Elixir said held water, the only consostent thing about the device was it's creation of portals and not it's teleportation of people.

      Not sure tho, I'm on the go and have no time to focus on what was and is currently being said. Elixir probably has the more solid arguments or whatever

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    • I don't think Sonic wasn't hit by the SWATbots, I just don't think he was vaporized by them, he's survived much worse than SWATbots. I agree that it looks like he was vaporized, but like the Superman clip, that's the point. It's supposed to make the reader think the hero's been defeated.

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    • I trust Medeus' sense of judgement.

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    • Should we wait for Cal to give his thoughts? At risk of putting words in his mouth, he doesn't seem to agree.

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    • Yes, we should wait for Cal.

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    • Yeah, let’s wait for Cal. But first I want to address some things.

      “It's supposed to make the reader think the hero's been defeated.”

      That assumption wouldn’t go against the Type 8. Sonic getting hit by vaporizing beams would make the reader think he was defeated by in actuality, survived the vaporizing beams because of his ring aura.

      Cliches don’t take away the feat.

      “Sonic being revived into the in-between zone is inconsistant with the way he was allegedly revived in issue 50. The device sending him there is consistent with the story.”

      I do agree the device sent Sonic in-between zone but I don’t agree the device saved Sonic from being vaporized. The device only made an accidental link -

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      Between Sonic’s reality and a *cough* higher plane of reality.

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      Again, this is not like the Toy Man Analogy. Toy Man got statements about what happen to Superman being sent to the future by “Future Beams”.

      But in Sonic Live, the same story Sonic got vaporized and lived, the story consistently shows portals and have statements that the machine creates portals. Sonic’s vaporization is ignored in the story, even though it’s the catalyst for the events of the story.

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    • Gotta love the idea of an unkillable hero even if he’s rendered to dust. Sure makes tension amazing. Everyone will think Sonic’s been defeated if he comes back like Jesus under any circumstance.

      Snarkiness aside, I’m still in disagreement with Elixir. I’d rather have the idea that he conveniently got warped by the kids who were accidentally warping things then him getting turned to dust and smoke. Otherwise, that smoke that apparently would be Sonic’s remains as he got vaporized would just reconstitute into Sonic, as opposed to what actually happened.

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    • Cal has a good point. It does not seem characteristic for Sonic to automatically return from death on his own, if that is what is suggested here.

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    • “I’d rather have the idea that he conveniently got warped by the kids who were accidentally warping things then him getting turned to dust and smoke.”

      That sounds like a preference. But there isn’t a statement supporting kids warping or the machine is Capable of warping/teleporting. It’s only been portals, nothing else.

      Putting your preferences above the facts it’s shown is Not reasonable.

      FA70ECED-0242-406B-9BE5-2D821C5B8671
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    • Wait, is the counter arguments going to be

      “Eh, this is not how I envisioned Sonic to be, so I don’t agree with it.“?

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    • I did make more points than that, you know. The smoke you see would’ve been the remains of Sonic’s vaporized body, which if he had said immortality, would’ve just reconstituted into Sonic. But we see Sonic later.

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    • I am writing a response to that, I just don’t want people to open up with their preferences.

      “Otherwise, that smoke that apparently would be Sonic’s remains as he got vaporized would just reconstitute into Sonic, as opposed to what actually happened.”

      So? Sonic can still be reformed from that. His 1 Billionth ring was gifted by the Ancient Walkers and his ring is stated to protect Archie Sonic.

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    • I still agree with Elixir

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    • “would just reconstitute into Sonic,“

      See above with what I agree with when it came to that.

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    • That’s the point. If Sonic was actually vaporized and had the survivability that’d make all tension moot, then the leftover smoke would be his remains and would’ve just reconstituted. We never see Sonic revive like we do Knuckles.

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    • Not seeing =/= not happening

      No tension =/= not fun story (See One Punch Man for a fun story from an Overpowered main character)

      Again, I agree the device interfered with Sonic’s reformation, but I don’t agree the device had the ability to be the thing responsible of saving Sonic.

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    • Tension, plot, are completely irrelevant to power level debates, nor are they relevant in a character having a ability or not, "X character shouldn't have a ability because it's bad writting" is not a argument in a versus debating sense

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    • “The weakest Kingdom Hearts enemy has Existence Erasure and Sora, Donald, and Goofy casually nopes it = bad writing and lack of tension.”

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    • OPM is nothing like Sonic. Former is a deconstruction/satire and focuses on the side characters. We know from the start that Saitama is invincible. The latter is supposed to have serious stories, and Sonic is the primary focus of tension, or is at least supposed to be. You’re supposed to be worried for Sonic’s well being, but if you’re right, which I don’t think you are (no offense), there’s no need to be worried. To put it into perspective, OPM, the tension is “Will Genos be okay until Saitama arrives?” Cant day the same for Sonic’s series. See the handful of times where Sonic nearly bites it.

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    • How is the device responsible for sending Sonic to the in-between zone but not also able to have saved him?

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    • Penders writting was shit, that's not a debate, however that's not important in Sonic having a ability or not

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    • In Ben 10 Omniverse, post-season 6 Ben can transform into Alien X any time he wants and stomp his enemy out of existence. Yet those stories are still interesting, Ben also has a failsafe that won’t let him die and we got a glimpse of that in Alien Force. My point being that if you execute it right you can make your main character OP and still have an enjoyable story. Not picking any side on the feat itself tho.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: How is the device responsible for sending Sonic to the in-between zone but not also able to have saved him?

      Foney, I’m not ignoring you but I’ve already explain myself in multiple ways in the overall context of Sonic surviving vaporization on his own from past information of Sonic himself and how the device couldn’t be the thing to directly save Sonic.

      The trouble is that bad writing exists. But we are trying to determine the truth through the bad writing. However, finding the truth doesn’t mean to disregard things that have been told in the story.

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    • Not very well or else I wouldn't be asking, but how about a different question.

      How did Sonic get to the in-between zone?

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Not very well or else I wouldn't be asking, but how about a different question.

      How did Sonic get to the in-between zone?

      ElixirBlue wrote: Again, I agree the device interfered with Sonic’s reformation, but I don’t agree the device had the ability to be the thing responsible of saving Sonic.

      ElixirBlue wrote: “Sonic being revived into the in-between zone is inconsistant with the way he was allegedly revived in issue 50. The device sending him there is consistent with the story.”

      I do agree the device sent Sonic in-between zone but I don’t agree the device saved Sonic from being vaporized. The device only made an accidental link -

      6D497493-D6B4-4A44-8486-036DD6ADD520

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      Between Sonic’s reality and a *cough* higher plane of reality.

      E752D6AD-1803-4B98-A72B-A30D237B61C5
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    • These statements are incongruous:

      "I do agree the device sent Sonic in-between zone"

      "I don’t agree the device had the ability to be the thing responsible of saving Sonic"

      So again, how is it able to do the former but not the latter?

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    • Because Sonic’s revival process shows he comes from “somewhere” when he gets revived.

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      And I’ve already explained multiple times about the machine.

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    • Again, this IS a consistent sub ability for the Ring when it comes to dimensions.

      9FDBF6B8-A0A3-4C7F-B61E-DF7858889AFA
      53B0CADF-3411-475A-92A2-346C34DA2757
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    • The walkers brought him into their zone to test him and sent him back, that isn't evidence that the ring can send Sonic between dimentions on its own.

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    • Are you saying the ring aura brought him to some other place/dimention/zone before returning him to Mobius in issue 50?

      I can't figure out how you believe both of the quoted staements to be true. If you believe you've already answered this I apologize, but can you please answer the question, how is the device able to send Sonic to the in-between zone but not also able to save him?

      edit: the device does teleport Robotnik, Snively, and Sonic at the end.

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    • What do you think about the new evidence Cal & Medeus?

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    • I still stand my ground.

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    • Well, I am probably not able to try to help out here for much longer, and it seems like this will likely not be accepted then.

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    • Nah, it can quite easily get accepted. I’m just one man.

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    • “I can't figure out how you believe both of the quoted staements to be true.“

      I don’t know what you mean by this.

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    • How do you agree that the device sent Sonic to the in-between zone but also say it couldn't have saved Sonic by happenstance?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Nah, it can quite easily get accepted. I’m just one man.

      You are outvoted in both staff support and regular user support

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    • Sorry, you are right. “Sent” wasn’t the right word. “Interfered“ with Sonic’s ring Aura, makes more sense then “send”.

      There is a parallel in the story to the ring. Robotnik calls the portal, Transdimensional, with Sonic saying he was being transported through transdimensional.

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      Foneybone1 wrote: The walkers brought him into their zone to test him and sent him back, that isn't evidence that the ring can send Sonic between dimentions on its own.

      Also, no, the Ancient Walkers themselves acknowledged it was the 1 billionth ring that brought Sonic to their dimension. And they were there to greet him.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote: Nah, it can quite easily get accepted. I’m just one man.

      You are outvoted in both staff support and regular user support

      But...that’s what I implied

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    • So should we apply this after all then?

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    • So with no explanation or visual indicator, the reader is supposed to determine that instead of just sending Sonic to the in-between zone directly the way the story implies, the device interfeared with Sonic's ring aura, which at this point can't even pretend to have revival properties? Two people saying "transdimensional" isn't really a paralel, that'd be like saying Infinite Crisis parallels Final Crisis because they both involve the multiverse.

      So you think the act of collecting a billion rings, for no reason at all, sends people to another dimension, and it also just so happened to send Sonic right to the walkers? One of the walkers says he's being rewarded for collecting so many rings, and another sends him away the same as he came, why would our assumption not be that they brought him there to test and reward him?

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    • Antvasima wrote: So should we apply this after all then?

      No, only Cal supports this while Medeus and most knoweledgeable members are against it

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    • Okay. My apologies for the misunderstanding. I sometimes forget the specifics of discussions due to handling too many of them at once.

      You can probably apply whatever has been agreed then.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: So you think the act of collecting a billion rings, for no reason at all, sends people to another dimension, and it also just so happened to send Sonic right to the walkers? One of the walkers says he's being rewarded for collecting so many rings, and another sends him away the same as he came, why would our assumption not be that they brought him there to test and reward him?

      Can you stop trying to interpret what I’m saying? You are falsely assuming the meaning behind my words and I’m getting tired of telling you “no no no, that’s not what I said.”

      The panel shows the Ancient Walker agrees that the one billionth ring brought Sonic to the Ancient Walkers’s Dimension.

      This is a fact.

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    • Since I just noticed this, Medeus was told all my points were countered with two being said to have been proven false. This is disingenuous as we both presented our ideas and support and neither yielded after much back and forth; all of our points are still relevant.

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    • Foney. You did not counter THE FACT the SWATBOTS were using Vaporization Beams that hit Sonic and he showed pain.

      Medeus’s reasonings were not proven false.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay. My apologies for the misunderstanding. I sometimes forget the specifics of discussions due to handling too many of them at once.

      You can probably apply whatever has been agreed then.

      I think everything has been rejected by most people and staff outside of Cal, so there's nothing to aply

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    • Can you stop trying to interpret what I’m saying? You are falsely assuming the meaning behind my words and I’m getting tired of telling you “no no no, that’s not what I said.”

      You do know that's why I'm asking questions right? I'm not declaring that what I say is what your saying, I'm asking if that is what you're saying.

      If the walkers didn't bring Sonic to the zone they were in (them using the ring to do that fits the story) then the ring would have had to bring him there for effectively no reason.

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    • I don’t know the reason, I’m just saying that it is what happened.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:

      I think everything has been rejected by most people and staff outside of Cal, so there's nothing to aply

      So should we close this thread?

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    • If you wish? This has been only Elixir and Foney arguing for months, so I guess that would be the best thing

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    • No, this should not be closed, we haven't reached any kind of consensus. Cal being the only staff in support doesn't matter when Medeus is the only staff opposed.

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    • Ok, we can keep going, but I have already countered close to everything in the OP.

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    • Except Cal is alone while several members don't agree with this togheter with Medeus, and thus has going without a conclusion for months

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    • No, you have presented arguments. I could just as easily say I countered all of your arguments; you repeating yourself doesn't mean anything when I've also been repeating myself.

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    • Tbf only two staff members have responded. And lets be honest, we knew who would agree and who would disagree as soon as the thread began, and that includes myself. DDM agreeing is the only curveball.

      Anyway, I still disagree. We don't see Sonic regenerating. That's a point you can't deny. If they wanted to show sonic regenerating from nothing, they would've done so, as they did so with Knuckles. We know Sonic wound up in another universe. That's another point you can't deny. Sonic magically becoming a Sue and reforming from nothing (because the smoke that would've been his vaporized remains still remained on Mobius) makes little sense instead of just coincidentally winding up in another universe.

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    • But I did counter Silver’s future “Sonic death” and have proven Mephiles can’t be used as evidence. What do you mean I haven’t been countering?

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    • Again, for like the 10th time, nixing Mephiles means nixing immeasurable. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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    • Cal, it was Determined earlier in this thread that the Sonic 06 adaptation happened but it can’t be used as evidence against Sonic’s Type 8 immortality as:

      • there is no details surrounding Archie Sonic’s death to debunk the 1 Billionth Ring
      • Sonic 06 is canon as Shadow the Hedgehog is canon in Archie Sonic by Ian Flynn’s words but the events of Shadow the Hedgehog didn’t even happen, with only a short summary of Shadow’s backstory happening in Archie Sonic

      Since Game adaptations in Archie Sonic Don’t reflect 1-to-1 game events, we can’t assume Mephiles used the same method to kill Archie Sonic like he did with Game Sonic.

      So it can’t be used as supporting evidence against Type 8 immortality.

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    • Then remove immeasurable speed. If a major plot point of 06 gets thrown out but a throwaway line about Solaris's existence remains, it's the epitome of cherrypicking.

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    • Cal, do you understand what my explanation is saying?

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    • Yes. I do. And vice versa?

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    • You didn't disprove Mephelis, him killing Sonic does work as evidence against type 8. We are given enough details with just the encyclopedia to say Sonic's ring aura didn't revive him. They needed the Chaos Emeralds, if you want to argue that it doesn't specificaly say they used the emeralds like the game, it is said the "alliance between heroes and villains" revived him, the aura couldn't do it. We don't need any more details.

      There is also that the ring aura required outside assistance to perform lesser feats like heal and unroboticize Sonic in Mecha Madness.

      You also didn't disprove Sally killing Sonic, I stopped talking about it because A. proving type 8 in the first place was more prevelant and B. Mephelis is more straight forward. I even said that's why I stopped talking about it.

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    • Why does Sonic even care? If being rendered literally nonexistent is but a small inconvenience to him, why put up a fight?

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    • And again there's other feats outside Solaris, and bad writting is not a argument, Penders sucked, next please

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    • Except there's not. At the absolute best, there's one with Mammoth Mogul. And at best, you'd have to change the reasoning. Penders didn't suck (well, not with writing). It's just that his work is being taken out of context in order to give Sonic powers in exchange for breaking the story.

      No offense. I do mean it.

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    • “We are given enough details with just the encyclopedia to say Sonic's ring aura didn't revive him.“

      Where Foney? Where where where where? Are you getting this information? Because the encyclopedia details nothing about Sonic’s death.

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    • The only reason why I am saying close this it's because there's a majority of staff and users who disagree, versus literaly 2 people, and they have argued with no conclusions for weeks, keeping it open is almost stonewalling so that you can get non knoweledgeable people to agree or for people to lose this battle of attrition, but you all do you

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    • “You also didn't disprove Sally killing Sonic, I stopped talking about it because A. proving type 8 in the first place was more prevelant and B. Mephelis is more straight forward. I even said that's why I stopped talking about it.”

      You gave up. Your argument was lacking.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Except there's not. At the absolute best, there's one with Mammoth Mogul. And at best, you'd have to change the reasoning. Penders didn't suck (well, not with writing). It's just that his work is being taken out of context in order to give Sonic powers in exchange for breaking the story.

      No offense. I do mean it.

      There's Ultra's blatant feat, and his writting sucked, even ignoring power scaler nerds, like most of the community hated his writting, his lore, equidna obsession, etc. Power scalers are the least likely people to hate Penders im fact

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    • >Majority of staff

      Only DDM and myself have responded here. Ant is constantly on the fence and has no opinion here.

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    • Time travel through speed alone is his feat. Which is like, nobody gets. IDW Discord is getting downgraded, and SA Supes and gosh darned Wally West have it as separate speeds.

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    • I meant majority in general, including everyone

      And we both know there's not many staff knoweledgeable on Sonic, outside of you two only Executor at best would come in the thread, and I honestely doubt he would agree tbh, tho I can be wrong

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    • Where Foney? Where where where where? Are you getting this information? Because the encyclopedia details nothing about Sonic’s death.

      Did you read the rest of that paragraph?

      Also no, I literaly just explained how I did not give up, go back and read my old reply. 

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    • Though, why do you guys hate the echidna obsession? The lore there was leagues better, if I'm saying the right stuff. He started the Chaos Force and Enerjak and the like, right?

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Time travel through speed alone is his feat. Which is like, nobody gets. IDW Discord is getting downgraded, and SA Supes and gosh darned Wally West have it as separate speeds.

      Idc about other franchises, pretty sure time travelling via speed alone is textbook immesurable, I renember alot of staff disagreeing with you in other threads about this general subject

      Even then that's unrelated to this thread, that doesn't debunk type 8 and all

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: Did you read the rest of that paragraph?

      Also no, I literaly just explained how I did not give up, go back and read my old reply. 

      I read the rest of the paragraph. But you don’t have any proof that Sonic had the Ring Aura during those events.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: At risk of coming across as dismissing criticism, this is the same problem we had with the fate hax discussion. Before trying to discredit Sonic’s deaths, there needs to be a reason to believe Sonic has type 8 immortality, what is it?

      Sorry, not give up, just changed the subject as I was countering.

      At the time yes, you were just focusing on the EE event, But now you’re claiming that I was just presenting arguments back then and not countering you.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Though, why do you guys hate the echidna obsession? The lore there was leagues better, if I'm saying the right stuff. He started the Chaos Force and Enerjak and the like, right?

      Because all off them are literal recolors, all of them literaly looks like Knuckles, the fanbase hated, that's a million memes about it, and the Chaos Force is for power level nerds, and Knuckles Enerjak and Dark Mobius were by Flynn, nobody liked Enerjak that much beforehand, like Dimitri Enerjak

      A example:https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcRqQXP1T1Macy_6KUFG-2o4c3zy8-vBi5Br9BCzt4k9ZsKsEQPk

      https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcQl2KrzyeX1nbxkX7vNF73tYCUwAa5hQJEI44u12QmFIkWMacN8

      https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcT39VGHrC9YrJ2BFhda8W7fXQqYv5wiJWhlwPDRVJeNzlqvTQ3D

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    • I'm pretty sure Sonic needing outside assistance to be revived does disprove type 8.


      Who knew me saying "at risk of coming across as dismissing criticism," would be so relevant?

      I attempted to change the subject, like I said, to the more prevalent topic. Establishing type 8 in the first place should have been the starting point to begin with. If you really want me to respond to your old comment then fine, but me trying to redirect the conversation is not giving up. (that reply was also a followup to my previous where I both offer a rebutal and try to change the subject but whatever)

      We both presented counter arguments, but saying you countered my arguments gives the false impression that you definitivly disproved them. You can say you did, but I can also say I disproved yours, it doesn't mean much.

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    • ... ok, what are you looking for? I was in the wrong to get frustrated and I apologize. I’m aware I was the one who contributed greatly to the unproductive back and forth.

      Mephiles killing Sonic doesn’t disprove Ring Aura, as Mephiles’s method is unknown and that Unknown presents the possibility he removed Ring Aura in order to kill Sonic.

      Silver’s newspaper didn’t say Sonic died, using flavor text like “destroyed” the group, and also mentioned Silver would be there. And then Silver was there, meaning the future predicted by the newspaper didn’t change.

      Ok, how convincing can you argue that it’s not possible for Mephiles to remove Ring Aura and what points to Silver not following the prediction of the newspaper?

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    • yeah, it was crossed out to show it didn't need to be responded to, I just found it funny, that I ended up being correct that my intention would be misconstrued The bigger offense is when Medeus asked what was being proposed, instead of stating your own side of the argument, you attempted to undermine mine by saying you had already countered and disproven my arguments when in truth you haden't.

      I've already mentioned that, if type 8 is real, Mephilis making Sonic vulnerable is a very important detail to leave out, in addition to the fact that him being able to overcome Sonic's ring aura when massively more powerful characters can't would be crazy inconsistent. Also, Saying he could have immortality negation on the grounds that we aren't told he doesn't is effectively confirmation bias.

      I probably won't have a response regarding Silver until tomorrow since I basically have to explain Silver's time travel and the Genesis Wave.

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    • I still think Elixer is making more sense. The SWAT bot was clearly not BFR'ing Sonic as that was addressed many times that there's no proof that their lasers teleport objects as opposed to just vaporizing them. If they were being teleported, then it would be more so the ring's power and not the kids or Swat Bot. Also, we clearly see a smoke like substance rise, as Sonic gets blasted; which clearly suggests that's the vapor of his body. Also, I will point out that cloning him slightly before he gets vaporized makes more sense the a simple BFR; as it would still explain the vapor.

      However, I still think it makes more sense to say he simply regenerates.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote: I've already mentioned that, if type 8 is real, Mephilis making Sonic vulnerable is a very important detail to leave out, in addition to the fact that him being able to overcome Sonic's ring aura when massively more powerful characters can't would be crazy inconsistent. Also, Saying he could have immortality negation on the grounds that we aren't told he doesn't is effectively confirmation bias.

      This reasoning isn’t good enough for it not to be possible.

      “Because it wasn’t detail, it means it doesn’t exist.”

      The encyclopedia itself doesn’t acknowledge the one billionth ring existence when it does exist in the story. That fact alone mitigates the “it was a very important detail to leave out“ when the entire Encyclopedia left out the one billionth ring.

      Also, just because something seems inconsistent doesn’t mean it isn’t factual. Bad writing exists in Archie Sonic.

      Confirmation bias works in the other direction too, you know.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: >Majority of staff

      Only DDM and myself have responded here. Ant is constantly on the fence and has no opinion here.

      True enough. I am a combination of badly informed and very overworked in this case, so it is hard for me to form proper conclusions.

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    • Saying that we aren't told Mephelis didn't do the specific thing he needs to do for type 8 to still work, so he definitely could have done it to dismiss what we are told is confirmation bias. (it may also be a self-fulfilling prophecy but I'm not sure) With that same logic, one could make the argument that since we aren't told exactly how they defeated Solaris, we can't say base Sonic didn't do it alone, but that's not proof of anything. Even if we were told that Sonic was killed exactly like in the game, the same excuse could be used, "we don't know Mephelis didn't remove Sonic's immortality with the flash of purple light (l think it was a Chaos Emerald but idr) or that his attack doesn't bypass immortality, so him killing Sonic doesn't disprove type 8," it's not an argument, it's a deflection. What we are told is Sonic was killed and needed assistance returning. Me choosing to believe that is not confirmation bias.

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    • Okay, this is a lot, but it's time travel so it's complicated.

      There are four versions of the prime timeline. There's one where Silver never appears in the past, the Freedom Fighters are defeated, and the future is in ruin. When Silver goes back in time for the first time to fix the future, he creates the second timeline. It's explained that when he returns to the future history plays out differently due to his presence in the past, but this only includes times he has already gone back. For example, in this second timeline, Silver would only appear in 194-196. This is how the story works. After he creates the third timeline in issue 215, Silver again explains  that his present is changed by his actions each time he returns, again showing that any trip to the past he has yet to take has not affected the future. He goes back a third time in 235 creating the fourth timeline, this is the timeline we witness in the comic as Silver appears all three times.

      To summarize: there is a version of the story that plays out without Silver, one where Silver only appears in 194 and no other time, one where he only appears in 194 and 215, and the one we see where he appears in 194, 215, and 235. Before Silver goes back in time in issue 235 he is currently in the future of the timeline where he has only gone back twice. He was not there to act out what we see before he goes back. This is not speculation, this is the way time-travel is presented to us.

      It's entirely possible each timeline only has Silver himself travel back once, but Silver, being unaffected by the reacted timeline, experiences three trips, however, it's not elaborated to that extent. Regardless, there cannot be a trip to the past Silver does not know about because he remains unchanged upon returning to the future. There also cannot be changes to the future caused by a trip to the past he has not taken yet as the future only changes after he returns. If trips he has not takes yet affect the future, then the future would not change when he returns as the change would already have occurred.

      The journal is not referring to Silver's actions during his last trip, because as explained above, it can't. He can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. All it says is Silver fought alongside Sonic, but the only time this happens during his last trip was when he saves him, meaning the Freedom Fighters aren't defeated. Therefore it can only be refering to 194 and or 215 as in both trips Silver fights alongside Sonic in ways people would have known about. Silver himself says the Freedom Fighters vanished during "this period", but the timeframe he is working under for the betrayal to happen covers over 50 issues so this similarly is not limited to his last trip.

      I'd like to note that Silver is not reading from the newspaper, he is showing Mogul the picture while reading from the journal (not that it makes a difference) Silver doesn't act out the journal/newspaper because that's not how it works. The timeline does not change until Silver time-travels, and history cannot reflect actions that have not taken place. Again, he can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.

      The way Silver says, "The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period," is written more as him starting a new thought that is his own rather than continuing to paraphrase the journal, but even if he was reading it verbatim, it's impossible for the journal or the newspaper to be talking about the Genesis Wave. For one thing, no one on Mobius knows it happened to be able to write about it, but also, the Genesis Wave didn't cause anyone to vanish from the zone, it rewrote it; the reality the document was talking about no longer exists. It didn't make Sonic and the Freedom Fighters vanish, it replaced their reality with a new one. (one the Freedom Fighters still existed in as well) Even Silver is rewritten and shows up in this new reality for different reasons. The Genesis Wave's effect cannot result in what the journal says nor can the journal exist after the Genesis Wave in the state Silver found it in prior.

      Sally was going to kill Sonic, the only reason she didn't is because Silver was there, but he wasn't there to save him in his past before his last trip. Sally killed Sonic in Silver's past.

      Note: there is also the 06 story, but Ian has explained that due to it retconning itself, it doesn't matter

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • “Note: there is also the 06 story, but Ian has explained that due to it retconning itself, it doesn't matter”

      Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I’ll move on.

      Foneybone1 wrote: The journal is not referring to Silver's actions during his last trip, because as explained above, it can't. He can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. All it says is Silver fought alongside Sonic, but the only time this happens during his last trip was when he saves him, meaning the Freedom Fighters aren't defeated. Therefore it can only be refering to 194 and or 215 as in both trips Silver fights alongside Sonic in ways people would have known about. Silver himself says the Freedom Fighters vanished during "this period", but the timeframe he is working under for the betrayal to happen covers over 50 issues so this similarly is not limited to his last trip.

      Except, it can’t be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says “Sonic battles former friend” (not “Sonic dies to former friend“).

      The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic’s “former friend”.

      The only one that applies to is Mecha Sally. Silver’s main goal. The information around the traitor is always given to Silver in half-truths.

      2B27D6D8-3039-413E-B528-5730A5D43CC8
      C7AF2C6E-23AA-463C-8034-3CD1432CC767

      ______________________________________

      Foneybone1 wrote: I'd like to note that Silver is not reading from the newspaper, he is showing Mogul the picture while reading from the journal (not that it makes a difference) Silver doesn't act out the journal/newspaper because that's not how it works. The timeline does not change until Silver time-travels, and history cannot reflect actions that have not taken place. Again, he can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.

      Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.

      The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.

      While it’s true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.

      00D87FC7-AD60-41F3-84E7-B11ABFE29C31

      ________________________________

      I don’t understand the logic behind this panel being used as evidence that Sally killed Sonic.

      If you want, I can go back throughout the comic and find dozens of examples of people or robots having the intention of killing or almost “killing” Sonic.

      I don’t Understand how that panel is used as proof.

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    • gosh l hope this is formatted right

      Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I’ll move on.

      Could you elaborate on this? 06 happened, and it happens the way the encyclopedia says, it just retcons itself. It doesn’t matter in the sense that it has no bearing on Silver’s time travel escapades.

      Except, it can’t be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says “Sonic battles former friend” (not “Sonic dies to former friend“).

      Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there’s a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He’s showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, “here’s a page saying…” He’s talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 as that was witnessed by the public and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn’t mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic’s time-travel rules don’t allow that to even be possible.

      The newspaper Silver is using as evidence for Mogul to send him back to the past, that he himself earnestly believes is true, says Silver fights along side Sonic as they fight Sonic’s “former friend”.

      Like stated earlier, Silver did not read about him fighting alongside Sonic from that newspaper piece. We don’t know what time the other page about him fighting alongside Sonic is referring to, but with the time-travel rules the comic sets up, it cannot be about 247.

      Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.

      This is true, but the only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo. To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.

      The issue is, while you present a good argument that silver always changes the future, was the future changed? He never went back to the future to find out if he changed anything.

      I realize the way I worded my explanation implies the timeline is only changed upon his return to the future, but this is not the case. When he performs an action in the past, the future is changed, while he remains unchanged. Him returning to the future is not a requirement.

      While it’s true Silver changed the future when he fought Scourge and helped Rotor, but none of those times had something say he was going to appear there before he traveled back in time, like the newspaper did.

      There wasn’t anything saying that this time either, the comic’s rules of time-travel make that impossible. The newspaper he showed Mogul did not say that. The journal says he fought alongside Sonic, but to say it’s referring to an event Silver hasn’t yet experienced goes against the comic’s rules of time-travel.

      I don’t Understand how that panel is used as proof

      It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.

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    • Foneybone1 wrote:


      Well, if the consensus is that we are ignoring the Sonic 06 adaptation that has no proof it follows the game events to a tie, I’ll move on.

      Could you elaborate on this? 06 happened, and it happens the way the encyclopedia says, it just retcons itself. It doesn’t matter in the sense that it has no bearing on Silver’s time travel escapades.

      “Could you elaborate on this?” No? Because I don’t understand why you brought up Sonic 06 when talking about Archie Silver.

      Foneybone1 wrote:


      Except, it can’t be when Silver fought Scourge or when he helped Rotor. The title of the newspaper says “Sonic battles former friend” (not “Sonic dies to former friend“).

      Silver is not reading that piece of newspaper when he says there’s a page about him fighting alongside Sonic. He’s showing the photo to Mogul while looking into the journal and says, “here’s a page saying…” He’s talking about a different page; they are two separate pieces of information that are not intrinsically linked. The piece of newspaper is more than likely a picture form the events of 236 (234 :/) as that was witnessed by the public (the public wasn’t there) and no one would have been able to take a photo of the events of 247 to put in a newspaper. Even if it was a picture from 247, that doesn’t mean Silver was there, because not only is what he reads about him fighting alongside Sonic from a different source but also the comic’s time-travel rules don’t allow that to even be possible.

      “Look! I found this picture of Sonic fighting Antione.” Obviously, it was a photo of Sonic fighting Mecha Sally.

      In the same breath. “Here’s a page saying something about me fighting side-by-side with Sonic.” If the words came from the journal, it would have to surround the events came before Antione went into a coma. Meaning, Silver, who’s been meticulously analyzing the journal for information, Silver would have recognized the events surrounding himself he was already a part of even if some of the words were missing.

      Antione’s personal journal wouldn’t record Rotor’s secret adventure to the north so it would have to be with Scourge, right? But Antione didn’t see Silver as anyone special and would’ve written a lot more names down that couldn’t have all been erased from time only leaving Silver. Meaning, Silver shouldn’t have seen fighting side-by-side with Sonic as new information if that was the case. But he did.

      “The Freedom Fighters vanish during this period.” Again, that information can’t come from the journal. So, your logic is: picture (newspaper), side-by-side (Journal), Vanish (newspaper) in one breath.

      Foney says: “only information that we know takes place after Antione falls into a coma is the photo. Nothing Silver actually reads for us is guaranteed to have taken place after or alongside that photo.”

      Except, there is nothing in Antione’s life he would have described as “the Freedom Fighters vanished.”



      but also the comic’s time-travel rules don’t allow that to even be possible

      Actually, wrong. The comic does have a time travel story when someone in the future went back into the past and changed nothing in their future. So the comic’s “time-travel rules” aren’t clear cut as much as you’re pushing it to be.


      Foneybone1 wrote:


      Any information that alludes to events past Antione getting into a coma came from the newspaper. That is a non-negotiable fact.

      To repeat part of my last comment, Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself. If he had already gone back and saved Sonic the future would reflect that, and he would remember due to being desynced from time.

      “Silver can't read about things he's done in the past that he has yet to do himself.”

      Foney, could you find the rules of where it says that he can’t in Archie Sonic’s lore? If you’re using logic from other series, we can’t use that.



      Foneybone1 wrote:


      I don’t Understand how that panel is used as proof

      It was used in conjunction with the page showing Silver being the only thing that stopped her from killing Sonic.
      Yes, that doesn’t prove Mecha Sally managed to killed Sonic. She was always meant to be stopped by Silver, no matter what.

      Here is the biggest thing: No matter what Silver did, nothing he did influenced the Genesis Wave/Super Genesis Wave from happening or not happening.

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    • What's the current summary of arguments for the immortality?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Ok, here it is:

      Everything I wrote is important for the argument as a whole.

      https://archiesonic.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ElixirBlue/Type_8_Existence_Eraser

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    • My stance is that there is potential evidence that the ring aura is what revived him in issue 50, but there is also evidence that it wasn’t necessarily. The OP mostly goes over information told in the comic and encyclopedia that opens up the possibility that Sonic returned from EE the same as everyone else who popped out of existence.

      Both interpretations have merit given issue 50, but the rest of the OP explains that there is evidence that only goes against the interpretation that Sonic h