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  • I'll add more stuff for other characters later.

    Johnny Blaze

    Cosmic Ghost Rider

    Robbie Reyes


    New stuff

    Thanos

    A bunch of characters

    Hela

    Magus

    Moondragon

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    • Callus was relative to the Aspirants iirc so it's a pretty extreme outlier, other than that seems legit, iffy on the regen tho

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    • I myself didn't see the regen feat at first, to clarify, when CGR was possessing stuff he was described as a demon or a spirit, and while Ghost Riders are called Spirits of Vengeance this panel indicates that the Avengers didn't know he was a GR, meaning that he was indeed a spirit there. We seeing the process of him going back to his normal form is something that really helps.

      I say that Johnny scales a likely because

      • The only other thing in terms of powers CGR has over other Ghost Riders in the Power Cosmic, which doesn't grant that regen (especially modernly).
      • Johnny describes himself as something on the lines of the greatest student in the Ghost Rider school.
      • CGR is the most powerful Ghost Rider only in terms of pure power.
      • And obviously the story acknowledges other Ghost Riders, for what is worth.

      Also King of Hell Johnny should have Sealing for sending CGR into a car where he had to fight to his way out (by fighting people with exorcism equipment) to get out.

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    • You can ask the following members to comment here: Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfan, Firestorm808, Elizio33, FanofRPGs

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    • I'll call the ones I didn't already call.

      Also, if anyone can link any scan stating that one's soul is what goes to that Hell dimension then that would help CGR's regen feat.

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    • Seems Okay

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    • Yeah, going through it all I can't seem to find any issue's with this.

      Don't quote me on that tho as I've only taking a quick glance so far, I'll check through it all later to verify its legitimacy.

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    • I agree.

      For the dark celestial, a guess he should be at very best as powerful as a regular celestial. So, i suppose it is an outlier

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    • Everything seems fine, the only thing I'm not so sure on is the scaling to Celestial-level via Callus. Honestly, the entire Final Host didn't even seem Celestial-level, if you get what I mean.

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    • Yeah most of it looks good after going through it, though I've got some reservations: 

      1. Can't comment on Callus as I've never read anything on him. 

      2. Johnny Blaze getting Low-Godly Regen. I thought we decided a few threads ago that we'd only credit Ghost Riders with what they show? Many of them have more unique aspects that the others don't show even if they share a common set of powers. Not mention, CGR is hard to scale to given that his powers result from being a Spirit of Vengeance with the Power Cosmic. 

      3.  Suggestion: Instead of renaming Robbie's profile Robbie Reyes (Marvel Comics), just rename him Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes)? We did the same thing with Miles Morales.

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    • Johnny Blaze's stuff

      Giving Cosmic Ghost Rider and Robbie Reyes' abilities to Johnny is doubtful, I would have been somewhat fine if it was like, Danny and Alejandra, but from my recollection both Cosmic and Reyes have completely different sources of power as well, so I doubt this scaling immensely.

      In regards to Callus, scaling them to Robbie may be fine, who is 4-B, so...

      Rest is fine

      Cosmic Ghost Rider's Stuff

      Possessing the Hell Charger is technically a bigger feat because it contains Eli Morrow, meaning Frank possessed or took over Eli as well, so it should note that while listing it.

      Rest is fine

      Robbie Reyes' Stuff

      How dare you change the perfect name I bestowed my boy Changing it to Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes) is fine

      I severely doubt that we should cross scale P&A from characters who are mechanically different in powers from each other. He isn't even possessed by Zarathos.

      Resistance to Purification is fine.

      Also Marvel is seemingly treating Modern Celestials as somewhat reasoanbly superior to their 4-Bs, so that's a factor to realize

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    • "Modern" Celestials as a term is iffy, since we know that a current Aspirant got 1 shot by a young Odin with mjölnir, but back then we know how that ended, the whole thing with the final host or just aspirants outside of ultimates is ehh

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    • Jason Aaron treats Celestials as pushovers, and essentially just proportionately powerful to their size, yes. We shouldn't scale any regular superheroes or villains to tier 2 because of them.

      Anyway, the other things accepted by all of the knowledgeable members here can probably be applied.

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    • So, the Callus thing may not be an outlier in the sense that the latter was weaker than how he was alife, CGR indicates as much when calling Cap & BP's boost to come from a dead Celestial, and GR calls dead Celestial the body of Callus he gave Eli to possess.

      As for the regen scaling, a reminder

      Eficiente wrote: I say that Johnny scales as a likely because

      • The only other thing in terms of powers CGR has over other Ghost Riders in the Power Cosmic, which doesn't grant that regen (especially modernly).
      • Johnny describes himself as something on the lines of the greatest student in the Ghost Rider school.
      • CGR is the most powerful Ghost Rider only in terms of pure power.
      • And obviously the story acknowledges other Ghost Riders, for what is worth.

      Also King of Hell Johnny should have Sealing for sending CGR into a car where he had to fight to his way out (by fighting people with exorcism equipment) to get out.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: Changing it to Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes) is fine

      Sorry to say this, but I find unprofessional to name profiles "Name of the character (Other name of the character)", or Name of the character (Other name of the character) (Franchise)". Why put 2 things in brackets?

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    • I mean, naming it Robbie Reyes is kinda silly too, but oh well, it's up to you

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    • Gotta say I don't really like either naming option. Green Lanterns suffer from the same problem. Disambiguation page not an option?

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    • The current naming procedure is in lack of better options.

      "Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes)" is fine i.m.h.o.

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    • "Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes - Marvel Comics)" and "Robbie Reyes (Marvel Comics)" should both be the profile's name. If you say Robbie Reyes, you already know how he is and that is his name, so one only needs to add the verse next to it. If you say Ghost Rider you could mean many characters, so adding the real name of it next informs that, then the verse.

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    • Seeing what the recent Ghost Rider series is showing, it is possible for  the Johnny Blaze King of Hell key being 2-C

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    • I think these revisions look pretty solid. Nice finds, Eficiente.

      I can't comment much on Callus, but based on other comments, there might be some nuance there. I'd have to look into it myself to say for sure.

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    • Again, I am legitimately iffy cross scaling Reyes and Cosmic to other Ghost Riders, they should showcase their own feats IMO, since they have different mechanics for their powers

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    • Zark2099 wrote: Again, I am legitimately iffy cross scaling Reyes and Cosmic to other Ghost Riders, they should showcase their own feats IMO, since they have different mechanics for their powers

      I agree with this.

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    • "Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes) (Marvel Comics)" is fine with me by the way.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Zark2099 wrote: Again, I am legitimately iffy cross scaling Reyes and Cosmic to other Ghost Riders, they should showcase their own feats IMO, since they have different mechanics for their powers

      I agree with this.

      Reyes isn't scaling to any power here, he only has Resistance to Purification because he shows that, one of the proposals even says "Some text in his P&A saying that he could develop more Ghost Rider powers in the future with enough experience". I don't know much of his characters, but Johnny said that Reyes didn't know half of the things his car could do, which indicates as much. And when has the Power Cosmic even gave anyone Low-Godly regen? In context it also matters little sense for CGR to be using anything but demonic powers.

      Antvasima wrote: "Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes) (Marvel Comics)" is fine with me by the way.

      Then again, why put 2 things in brackets? That looks unprofessional when it can just be "Ghost Rider (Robbie Reyes - Marvel Comics)".

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    • Reyes isn't even possessed by the Spirit of Vengeance, instead being possessed by his dead uncle Eli Morrow as the source of his powers, he's completely different from a Ghost Rider and it is even referenced multiple times.

      Also you can never be sure mate, though at the same time doesn't Marvel list Ghost Rider with a Godlike regen anyways? That'll be fine ig. Though cross scaling between Reyes and others is a big no-no based on his own solo series

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    • Not anymore, Eli was not possessing him sence a while in this story, the link of the Resistance to Purification very much states that he has the Spirit of Vengeance and he even gained the Penance Stare some time ago. It's not cross scaling on Reyes, he had the Spirit of Vengeance, they tried to exorcise that and failed, he has the feat.

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    • Isn't it better keying Reyes then?

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    • Two keys might be an idea.

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    • The OP was updated with new stuff and the bait in the title changed. Particularly there, I find what Hela does to CGR as more evidence for the Low-Godly regen scaling; In context she likely was only able to screw him due to him being a demon, so the Power Cosmic should give him no regen.

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    • I suppose that probably makes sense.

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    • Wait this thread got updated?

      For hela, everything seems fine except healing, I think this just more so Thanos' doing, rather than Hela herself, but she should have healing anyway considering her nature as a God of Death who can also "prevent" death.

      Not sure about Regen Negation

      rest is fine.

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • The healing being Thanos' doing makes no sense, he was dead when that happened and he said that Hela fixed his body when he was in Eros' body.

      Regen Negation is a pain for me as it's always there with no evidence and mostly due to X character not healing from something with no statements about it, when that could just mean that the latter wasn't portrayed with regen at the time. This instance uses the same logic but better, as we saw Hela do something to CGR, which we don't know what it was, and CGR's regen was shown right in his next story.

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    • It generally needs more context (mostly because I don't even remember this instance, since I haven't been keeping up with GOTG since they saw that army of drax(es?), did she just connect the body off panel or what? Do you have the scene? Because Thanos himself entering the body with his consciousness (as you phrased it) is different than her bringing back his consciousness and him living again, connecting the brain and the body isn't really healing, and can even be done irl iirc, it's just a problem of bringing the brain back to life/bringing back the consciousness.

      So yeah, just show me specific scans of it happening

      Edit: nvm, checked the scans

      Yeah, I was right, he was clearly hooked onto a machine (which was either used to stabilize his body, which isn't even needed at all so that's irrelevant, or the most logical conclusion, which is that it was used to connect his head back to his body) And the consciousness "transplant" thing was his doing, it's not really healing

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    • After looking through the regen scans, He doesn't actually reconstruct another body, all he does is create another set of "armor" if you wanna call it that, which would make sense if you take into consideration literally the last thing they mention is that he is a spirit of vengeance with the Power Cosmic, which would obviously give a reason as to how he is able to create things out of nothing. Also, it does pretty clearly say "This is king blaze's doing" when it comes to CGR regaining control over his body.

      What hela did to him isn't regen negation, either, it's just that as a god of death, she has control over the undead, so she just stripped him off his undead physiology essentially (or just his immortality as a undead being to be more clear), it's pretty simple

      ​​​​

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    • Hykuu wrote: Edit: nvm, checked the scans

      Yeah, I was right, he was clearly hooked onto a machine (which was either used to stabilize his body, which isn't even needed at all so that's irrelevant, or the most logical conclusion, which is that it was used to connect his head back to his body) And the consciousness "transplant" thing was his doing, it's not really healing

      I never claimed that the consciousness transplant was healing, only that connecting the head and the body that where dead for a while was healing. Hela saying that the body wasn't perfect as giving life wasn't her specialty now doesn't really make a lot of sense if a machine did that. And the machine doesn't even look like a machine either, just some restrains to keep his body safe, at best maybe they keep Thanos' body alive but that thing connecting his head and body is too much of a streach.

      Hykuu wrote:

      After looking through the regen scans, He doesn't actually reconstruct another body, all he does is create another set of "armor" if you wanna call it that, which would make sense if you take into consideration literally the last thing they mention is that he is a spirit of vengeance with the Power Cosmic, which would obviously give a reason as to how he is able to create things out of nothing. Also, it does pretty clearly say "This is king blaze's doing" when it comes to CGR regaining control over his body.

      He had no armor, fire or skeleton when he was on Robbie's car and wasn't possessing it, he was just inside it unseen by everyone; as a spirit. They were calling him spirit before knowing he was a Ghost River, him being Spirit of Vengeance doesn't matter in context. It was king blaze's doing, he put CGR in that car to mess with Robbie and the Avengers so that he himself may race Robbie. Part of this things were acknowledged in the points I said to support this feat.

      Hykuu wrote: What hela did to him isn't regen negation, either, it's just that as a god of death, she has control over the undead, so she just stripped him off his undead physiology essentially (or just his immortality as a undead being to be more clear), it's pretty simple

      "Stripped him off his undead physiology" doesn't make sense as he was still a walking skeleton. Stripped "his immortality as a undead" is kinda vague, if you mean type 3 immortality then you agree that it's regen negation, if you mean type 2 immortality then why doesn't he just regenerate from his deplorable skeleton state? Why doesn't he just recreate his armor? Why he states that he can't "hold together"?

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    • Eficiente wrote:

      I never claimed that the consciousness transplant was healing, only that connecting the head and the body that where dead for a while was healing. Hela saying that the body wasn't perfect as giving life wasn't her specialty now doesn't really make a lot of sense if a machine did that. And the machine doesn't even look like a machine either, just some restrains to keep his body safe, at best maybe they keep Thanos' body alive but that thing connecting his head and body is too much of a streach.

      That's the only thing explicit or really even implicit given by what you stated, but that's fine. Also, connecting the head and the body isn't healing, Thanos' body was itself, dead, since it lacked consciousness, reconnecting a head/brain with a body doesn't count as healing, this is basic biology, and she didn't give life to it, Thanos did by entering it with his consciousness again, All hela did was just reclaim his head and attach it to his body.

      Also, that's not how constraints work, what? They point of them is to stop something from moving, it doesn't keep his body safe, the way constraints work is the opposite, it's meant to save others from him by restricting his movements, the only way constraints would be relevant here is if they were forcefully used to connect his body and head, since that's literally the first and only times we see his head connected after Hela gets his head, it's even more so of a stretch to claim she did this completely by herself, and that it's healing.

      Low Godly for CGR seems fair, just not the regen negation-


      ""Stripped him off his undead physiology" doesn't make sense as he was still a walking skeleton. Stripped "his immortality as a undead" is kinda vague, if you mean type 3 immortality then you agree that it's regen negation, if you mean type 2 immortality then why doesn't he just regenerate from his deplorable skeleton state? Why doesn't he just recreate his armor? Why he states that he can't "hold together"

      You understand that anything which dies goes to the realm of dead in marvel, right? And in some iterations/perceptions, that's Hela's realm, the point of a being like Ghost Rider, who is a spirit, existing in the physical realm, is that he's already dead, which is why he can't be killed through conventional means at all, he isn't forced to go to any after life as his purpose is on earth, what Hela did was essentially negate THAT, not his regen, by using her, y'know, control over the dead (which we see even more in Agent of Asgard: Loki)

      This is quite literally why he starts saying, "I'm sorry, my queen" and he says "Hela's... hold on me.." and explains he was being weakend, it's as clear as day as to what was being manipulated here, it wasn't his regen, I'll put it in even simpler terms if you want

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    • Hykuu wrote:
      Eficiente wrote:
      That's the only thing explicit or really even implicit given by what you stated, but that's fine. Also, connecting the head and the body isn't healing, Thanos' body was itself, dead, since it lacked consciousness, reconnecting a head/brain with a body doesn't count as healing, this is basic biology, and she didn't give life to it, Thanos did by entering it with his consciousness again, All hela did was just reclaim his head and attach it to his body.

      "Leaving them ready to be inhabited by Thanos' consciousness" was as in "the body is so fine someone could live in it, the head and the body weren't attached with poxipol". Thanos' type 6 Immortality and Possession is its own proposal above the ones for Hela. If she doesn't give life to it then why she justifies herself for the body saying "giving life isn't exactly my specialty"? Saying that Thanos can possess dead bodies is an inesary step of speculation here, more so considering he needed someone (alife) to upload his consciousness into, he would also get Self-Resurrection for going into a dead body and making it be alife. And I'm 100% sure that being able to fix the body of a dead person=being able to fix the body of a living person, if anything the former should take more effort.

      Hykuu wrote: Also, that's not how constraints work, what? They point of them is to stop something from moving, it doesn't keep his body safe, the way constraints work is the opposite, it's meant to save others from him by restricting his movements, the only way constraints would be relevant here is if they were forcefully used to connect his body and head, since that's literally the first and only times we see his head connected after Hela gets his head, it's even more so of a stretch to claim she did this completely by herself, and that it's healing.

      "Safe" as in to not let the heroes take the body away, and/or to prevent movements from Thanos while he was doing that delicate process. They are just tubes, I guess I'm just going to say that I disagree on what's the stretch here.

      Hykuu wrote: You understand that anything which dies goes to the realm of dead in marvel, right? And in some iterations/perceptions, that's Hela's realm, the point of a being like Ghost Rider, who is a spirit, existing in the physical realm, is that he's already dead, which is why he can't be killed through conventional means at all, he isn't forced to go to any after life as his purpose is on earth, what Hela did was essentially negate THAT, not his regen, by using her, y'know, control over the dead (which we see even more in Agent of Asgard: Loki)

      This is quite literally why he starts saying, "I'm sorry, my queen" and he says "Hela's... hold on me.." and explains he was being weakend, it's as clear as day as to what was being manipulated here, it wasn't his regen, I'll put it in even simpler terms if you want

      I figured it had to do with demonic/undead targets given those things he said, but I'm just reacting to what she seems to be doing; If other dead beings get the same attack CGR got, would they still be able to regenerate after that? If they can, then ok, if they can't, then that's regen negation to me.

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    • Hykuu seems to make sense to me. My apologies Eficiente.

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    • We seem to only disagree on sonething minor (Hela having healing, which I still insist on) and some weird power that only works on specific targets being actually another power with the same gimmick, whatever that may be.

      So this is going pretty well, but I would still appreciate all the rest of the people here with share their opinions.

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    • I don't really have the time to go over this, I still stand with what I said, but I'll just answer this rq

      " If other dead beings get the same attack CGR got, would they still be able to regenerate after that? If they can, then ok, if they can't, then that's regen negation to me."

      If they went through the exact same series of events he did, and had the same stats and exact nature (but not hax), then yeah they should be able to anyway

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    • Bump.

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    • So what do we need to do here, in summary?

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    • The people I already called needs to see the OP, the arguments in the comments and give their opinion. That can take a while so you can unfollow this if you want.

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    • I can probably wait a bit in this case.

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    • Bump.

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    • Honestly you should've just made a new thread rather than bulk this one up, the previous Ghost Rider stuff still hasn't been resolved yet.

      I'll check it all in a while.

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    • I read one set of comics in one series and listed the powers there but then it sent me to read other comic for context where Thanos was using a new power as a result of the comics before it in that other series. This is just the sum of it all.

      Also we were told to have less threads for a same verse being discussed at once in that wiki criticism, so there's that.

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    • Eh, still an inefficient way imo.

      We all know how stupid and uninformed that critique is mate I swear, have you seen stuff like the Sentry and Captain Britain revisions where shit kept adding on and on and on while nothing was ever accepted before another revision was tacked on? This is that vibe.

      Bulking up a thread like this is a straight up shitshow, why do you think I don't message literally everyone and upgrade 70 characters at a time? Because they'll logically never end, nobody wants to read through them, at least properly, and it's just... such a poor way to verify revisions. All in all, I do think you shouldn't do this stuff in general, especially in a Marvel thread, where by guarantee I tell you, not everyone would have an expertise of ALL these characters to give their input.

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    • Zark is probaby correct. Sorry Eficiente.

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    • Let's concentrate on evaluating the thread. We can discuss standards to make organized CRTs once I make a thread about it in the future to propose all users to follow a minimum amount of new rules on it, threads that are huge messes hinder me to evaluate them as much as everyone here.

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    • Okay.

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    • Bump.

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    • Can somebody remind me of the summarised conclusions here?

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    • In regards to the Ghost Rider revisions, there is no proper conclusion IIRC, we were discussing Robbie Reyes' keys but that just got... sidetracked.

      In general the rest of the powers unrelated to the Rider chain scaling seem fine, except Hela's Healing, and Cosmic Ghost Rider's Regeneration got contested and has an iffy resolution.

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    • Okay. What has been accepted can probably be applied.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: In general the rest of the powers unrelated to the Rider chain scaling seem fine, except Hela's Healing, and Cosmic Ghost Rider's Regeneration got contested and has an iffy resolution.

      Well, Hykuu did ultimately agree with it

      Hykuu wrote: Low Godly for CGR seems fair, just not the regen negation-

      The others just didn't reply, is there any reason to disagree with the Low Godly feat?

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    • I am doubtful on it scaling to the rest of the Riders given Cosmic is an alt. univ Rider, so his dynamics may not necessarily translate.

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      • Not the rest of the Riders, just Johnny as he describes himself as something on the lines of the greatest student in the Ghost Rider school.
      • Not only is CGR a character of the main universe now but this story in particular had a notable focus on the 3 Riders shown above. I find ridiculous for them to not scale (if they deserve to do so) just because one of them was from an alternative future.
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      • Doesn't translate to him knowing that
      • Still from an alt. future that never happened. Not ridiculous to me.
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    • Bump. I didn't say anything on that to leave it in a respectful disagreement.

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    • What is left to do here?

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    • A FANDOM user
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