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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    19:35, March 9, 2020

    We are here because it seems the stuff that ended up here didn't get evaluated properly, while I actually thought that it was fine because no one objected it in the second thread (I'm sorry for expecting that just adding a link to continue to the next thread would inform everyone of the next thread, especially the overworked staff). With that being said, let's begin by remaking the CRT for all the subjects.

    Please be as explicit on arguments as possible and don't just use "But this never got accepted", explain why you disagree on detail and so on, this is a CRT remake after all.

    The Conceptual nature of Light, Darkness and the "heart" has been compressed in this button below as it got too long to reasonably just leave here, please note that most (if not all) of the stuff below is based on this, so please focus your arguments on this section.

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    Summary of the "Normal" physiology in KH

    In KH we know that a Body AND a Soul are what Nobodies are made of, while Heartless are made of a "heart"  after being consumed by darkness (yes, I know the irony).

    Now, we can see from the links that a "body" is just the physical thing and the soul is what the verse page calls the "Mind" (aka, simply a sort of life essense/will).

    What could the "heart" be?

    Obviously the series isn´t talking about the organ everytime they mention "heart", anyways...

    The "heart" actually is a type 2 Concept, with type 2 Abstract Existence (I know it sounds crazy, this will be elaborated with the next paragraphs)

    What supports this?

    (Credit to TheSpeedster (Thread:3798741) and my old blog I did to explain this stuff) Well, as we can see in Ever´s blog, Heartless are tied to the "concept of darkness", which is also tied to the concept of light. And there´s the general agreement of Nobodies (which lack a heart) having already Nonexistent Physiology. I'´ll go ahead and first explain how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence, then how the "heart" is of abstract nature too:

    "My brother pupil Eraqus thinks only in absolutes. He has persuaded himself that light is the only way, but forgets that light cannot exist without shadow. I believe a balance of light and darkness is what sustains our World, but too much of the darkness has been stamped out, disrupting that balance. Someone must tear down this tyranny of light and reorganize the World around the darkness which then creeps back in." -Xehanort Report 8

    Xehanort states again that light and darkness need each other to exist "Light and darkness are two sides of the same coin; without darkness, there is no light. The Keyblade wielders' great war over Kingdom Hearts was fought by defenders of the light, servants of darkness, those who sought to reconcile the two, and those motivated by nothing more than lust for power. A whole spectrum of thought was swept into the conflict, and the worlds that did not go to war found the war brought to them. In the end, the whole World was cast into darkness."* -Xehanort Report 4

    There's also the fact that all hearts in existence make up KH, the literal embodiment of light, and there's also Mickey directly stating stuff supporting this.

    And beings who don't have light/darkness at all are literally nonexistent as we all know, anything

    There´s also even more regarding what TheSpeedster (Thanks you) pointed out, aka, the following:

    - Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs

    - Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45

    - The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt

    - The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem%27s_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s

    - Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart

    • Extra stuff from Re:Mind:

    - Xehanort calls his "heart" his essence

    Kairi's "heart" is literally referred as her essence

    Chirithy states that the hearts being destroyed makes one fade out of existence entirely

    Now when we define "essence" under multiple different times, but it is most obviously not the soul. The soul and the heart are described as being two different things in their entirety, as Xemnas makes this clear yet again when he says destroying the soul would not affect Lea's heart. This is from Kingdom Hearts III base game but supports the point

    If we define essence, it can have a few different interpretations between like soul and concepts.

    es·sence /ˈesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

    Even if you use other dictionaries, they quite closely make similar remarks on essence being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge

    Given how this is, the heart's existence has already been established as being qualitatively superior to the body, the mind, and the soul.

    Having heart destroyed means you, as an entirety, cease to exist as Chirithy has made clear.

    This ties into the Nobodies still have Nonexistent Physiology Type 2 as well

    But overall, it being called the essence of people means that it is the most important quality. Most important quality would obviously mean it's a greater value, as we had mentioned multiple times beforehand.

    None of this "the heart is only 1/3 of your being" headcanons.

    And given how statements of gaining hearts allow you to exist as referenced on the previous thread with Saix saying that the Organization members could become existent with them, this only conclusively shows that they are Type 2 beings.

    This also supports the fact that the Conceptual Manipulation via strikes should stay because in that instance, the fact the heart is the essence of someone from Xehanort's own words and the game says it was essence being destroyed is enough to show it's literally the heart.

    And before this gets brought up because I've seen it be asked "Why don't nobodies immediately vanish then if they have that?" We've already established why, they don't have hearts, meaning it wouldn't remotely affect them like that to begin with. Type 2 NEP details it.

    As we can see, the nature of the "heart" fits nicely with such (for example, "destroying the heart (concept) of someone" and thus "destroying someone" fits for such perfectly, as it is downright from existence, as we can see with Nobodies already being agreed on to have Nonexistent Physiology, which is due to a lack of a "heart")

    For the Abstract part:

    "Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.​​​​"

    This is consistent as we all know that when a Nobody is destroyed and its heart is free, the being will come back to a whole whenever it happens where the latter happened (not combat applicable, this is an actual mechanic in-verse) Light and darkness were accepted as being concepts as they make up all of existence by the above in Kingdom Hearts, which makes it a type 3 concept, but there is evidence that makes it a type 2 concept.

    For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn’t bound by the universe.

    "2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."

    The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before.

    From this, everyone that holds a "heart" holds type 2 Abstract Existence by being reliant in a type 2 concept, among other things that will get developed in further detail below:

    Nobody Type 2 NEP:

    This isn't exactly an addition, but a clarification. Nobodies are a Type 2 NEP as they lack the concepts that make up existence in KH (Light and Darkness, if the main thing above gets accepted), which is what explicitly makes them non existent in the first place, with both their soul and body fading from the Realm of Light after having their heart taken. The NEP page even states that beings who are non existent on a conceptual level can qualify for it.

    "2: Idealistic Nonexistence: The lack of absolutely everything to a state of nonexistence at a conceptual level. Such a state defies even the most basic logical principles and is unknowable in the truest form, as it is not a state at all. Such entities are typically presented as primordial voids or pure emptiness, or any abstract state which precedes or opposes the state of existence on all levels. In terms of binary, this would be something that is neither 1 nor 0, where 1 is existence and 0 is nonexistence."

    Bolding "typically" because as we discussed with Cal at Discord, that's not an actual requirement for the same reason being FTL doesn't make you High 3-A by itself, verse mechanics are verse mechanics, after all, as I'm sure someone will complain of this eventually otherwise.

    Mid-Godly/High-Godly Regeneration and Regen Negation:

    Heartless used to have Mid-Godly Regeneration from being able to come back by being reliant in the concept (Darkness is a concept that makes up existence) of darkness/"heart", this is fairly straightforward as this is mostly based on the main part above on the concept stuff and some other things, here's some scans and statements as I know everyone will be in doubt:

    As we can see from the above, Heartless are tied to the darkness and can come back from it, be it Pureblood or Emblem

    Now, from here we can obviously tell that if this is also accepted, Keyblade Wielders get Mid-Godly Regeneration Negation as the Keyblade can negate the Heartless from coming back, which we all know is a plot point across nearly the whole series.

    As for Vanitas and his High-Godly Regen, the Vanitas Remnant is fairly self-explanatory, after having his "heart" destroyed out of the clash with Ventus, Vanitas Remnant is what was left out of his emotions, think Lingering Will, but Regen, as we all know a "Heart" is needed to be able to exist, so coming back in this fashion falls as such per definition.

    As Xehanort gets all powers from the true Organization XIII as he fused with them at around KHIII (Which was accepted before in another CRT), this also extends to Xehanort getting High-Godly regen.

    Immortalities on Heartless and Regeneration Negation:

    Okay, we still remember Heartless having back then type 3 Immortality out of the Regeneration, and the Keyblade negates it, so by extension the Keyblade would get the ability to also negate that type of Regeneration, fairly straightforward as this is also something reliant on the main thing of concepts in KH and all of that.

    Intangibility and interaction with Heartless by NPI:

    Okay, this was accepted before IIRC, but that has to be checked too to avoid further complaints.

    Heartless are known to only be able to be harmed by the Keyblade as they can't be harmed by conventional attacks (Like at KHI when Sora couldn't even harm them as his hits from his wood sword just phazed across them), by extension, only stuff that has NPI to hit abstract entities (As Keyblades destroy the "darkness") can harm them, among other things/beings.

    Conceptual attacks and that stuff:

    This is based on Xehanort conceptually killing Kairi with his base Keyblade, which he even states that isn't different from any other Keyblade, Chirithy even explains that when Sora bringed back the Guardians of Light he restored them after having their "hearts" being erased from existence (Also supporting Heartless having conceptual attacks, of which a good chunk of the lore points of Heartless having a lot of relationship with "hearts" anyways) While we are on that, Heartless and Keyblade WIelders can not only affect "regular" hearts of any subject, but also the "heart" of each "World", which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world on the same fashion, which is actually the entire plot of KHI as we all know.

    Summary (Aka, in a nutshell):

    - Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

    - Heartless get Mid-Godly Regeneration once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regeneration and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regeneration Negation

    - Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

    - Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

    - Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

    - Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies

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    • I agree.

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    • Still agree.

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    • - Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

      No. This already got rejected hard in the last CRT. Being made out of concepts=/= being one. I’m also made of the concept of “human”, but clearly that doesn’t make me a concept

      - Heartless get Mid-Godly Regeneration once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regeneration and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regeneration Negation

      Why the hell would it be Mid-Godly? It’s Low-Godly at best considering they still need their hearts to come back. If Vanitas Remnants is what was left of his emotions, then that simply means that some of his emotions survived. Simple as that. Keyblade Wielders getting Low-Godly regeneration is fine though

      - Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

      Heartless are intangible as shown in Hollow Bastion and Destiny Island in KHI. They would still get NPI, but this should be the reason, not because they’re “abstract”.

      - Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

      The only thing in KH that has conceptual manipulation (of light and darkness) is just Kingdom Hearts, which would have killed everyone anyway. Keyblades don’t have any conceptual manipulation, nor is there any character in the series (that isn’t a Nobody) that can actually resist it

      - Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

      That’s just called “regeneration negation”, this is redundant

      - Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies

      Lacking the concepts of Light and Darkness is different from completely lacking concepts. At best, nobodies get limited resistance to conceptual manipulation of light and darkness from lacking these concepts, but that’s it.

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    • I agree with everything

      Nobodies lacks the concept of existence itself,the heart, they defy all logic in the verse


      Hearts being abstraction, i agree, not only the heart os different from the soul but it is made by 2 concepts(light and darkness) and one heart being shatter is refer as being "conceptualy in pieces" or "fading from existence"

      Mid godly stuff, agree, heartless being capable of regenerating from their heart(which is different from the Soul) also Vanitas Remnant regenerate even from his heart,meaning his essence, being destroy


      NPI agree, no need to explain that

      Being able to destroy the heartless, who are tied to the concept of darkness, shold give the keyblade wielders conceptual manipulation over darkness,also keyblade wielder can shatter someone hearts,which is someome essence

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote: - Everyone that holds a "heart" (Aka, literally the whole verse but Nobodies) gets Abstract Existence by being reliant on the "heart" of the respective subject.

      No. This already got rejected hard in the last CRT. Being made out of concepts=/= being one. I’m also made of the concept of “human”, but clearly that doesn’t make me a concept

      - Heartless get Mid-Godly Regeneration once more, Vanitas and Xehanort get back High-Gofly Regeneration and Keyblade Wielders also get back Mid-Godly Regeneration Negation

      Why the hell would it be Mid-Godly? It’s Low-Godly at best considering they still need their hearts to come back. If Vanitas Remnants is what was left of his emotions, then that simply means that some of his emotions survived. Simple as that. Keyblade Wielders getting Low-Godly regeneration is fine though

      - Non-Physical Interaction from hitting "Abstract" entities (Heartless) comes back (All Keyblade Wielders, Donald, Goofy and many more)

      Heartless are intangible as shown in Hollow Bastion and Destiny Island in KHI. They would still get NPI, but this should be the reason, not because they’re “abstract”.

      - Conceptual Manipulation and Resistance to such (All Keyblade Wielders and Heartless, Resistance should extend to anyone that has fought a Keyblade Wielder or a Heartless), including also conceptual attacks.

      The only thing in KH that has conceptual manipulation (of light and darkness) is just Kingdom Hearts, which would have killed everyone anyway. Keyblades don’t have any conceptual manipulation, nor is there any character in the series (that isn’t a Nobody) that can actually resist it

      - Immortality Negation type 3 goes back to the Keyblade Wielders profiles

      That’s just called “regeneration negation”, this is redundant

      - Nonexistent Physiology goes back to type 2 for Nobodies

      Lacking the concepts of Light and Darkness is different from completely lacking concepts. At best, nobodies get limited resistance to conceptual manipulation of light and darkness from lacking these concepts, but that’s it.

      You haven't actually addressed what Bosican has brought up as evidence in the OP.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      You haven't actually addressed what Bosican has brought up as evidence in the OP.

      Dude, he is countering the points made with the evidence, that is what addressing the evidence means.

      Also from my perspective the heart thing just sounds like type 8 immortality reliant on the heart, do we even know how quickly they come back?

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    • Not that i remember though it takes a long time for it. Nobodies of the Organization took at least 10 years to developp a new heart and for most of them, it was more o a shadow of a heart rather than an actual heart. I guess Xemnas's influence limited them from growing it since he made sure they would focus on getting KH but even without this, it took a long time before their heart re-appeared (for those who regained it).

      About the Heartless, they're not mere creatures born from the Darkness, they're Darkness itself in the form of creatures. So i'm not against considering they're kind of a concept.  

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    • So if they get the mid-godly it should be mentioned that it is non-combat applicable. Darkness is only 1 concept unless you are saying that each of them are a seperate Darkness concept which them clashed with type 2 conceptual manipulation.

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    • "Darkness is only 1 concept" Yes. 

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote:

      You haven't actually addressed what Bosican has brought up as evidence in the OP.

      Dude, he is countering the points made with the evidence, that is what addressing the evidence means.

      Also from my perspective the heart thing just sounds like type 8 immortality reliant on the heart, do we even know how quickly they come back?

      For the most part TriforcePower1 only addresses the points in the summary. He does mention that Abstract Existence was rejected in the past but he doesn't exactly explain why which isn't good since many of his points rely on that statement. This thread is for discussing so I think that he should elaborate on the points that led to it getting rejected for everyone who participates in this thread.

      The points in the summary did result from the evidence that was presented which is why the evidence itself needs to be addressed for the points to be refuted and not just the points from the summary. He has to show that the evidence doesn't justify the points in the summary.

      Regarding your question of how fast the Heartless come back, the OP has a link that shows the Heartless coming back from hearts that were released after Kingdom Hearts was damaged by Ansem the Wise's machine.

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    • Yes, the regeneration of Heartless appears to be combat applicable in conventional situations (As we all know that Keyblades aren't that common even in-verse).

      Now, I've also updated the OP to explain further how "Light" and "Darkness" are the abstract concepts that make up existence in KH.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:

      1:

      "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it." - Abstract Existence

      Chirithy even says that "Death" is the natural outcome for those which body and "heart" perish together

      2:

      Mid-Godly comes because they are reliant on a concept to come back, which qualifies for Mid-Godly Regeneration per definition, as we could see in the discussion on the Regeneration changes.

      3:

      Keyblades destroy the "concept" of darkness when attacking Heartless, which is why when they are destroyed no remains are left but the "heart".

      4: 

      Keyblades can manipulate "darkness", "light" and "hearts", as we all know, read the OP once more as I elaborated further into that.

      5: 

      It may be redundant, but it still qualifies.

      6: 

      As stated in the OP, you need the concepts of "Light" and "Darkness" to conventionally exist, so per definition they entirely lack a concept, they (Nobodies) are constantly being treated as nonexistent beings.

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    • In addiction to what Bobsican said, like i said in my comment, nobodies lacks the concept of existence itself

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    • Xehanort1307 It's beyond that, they're literally non-existent. Tricky to explain but in short, they have a body but this body is "made" of nonexistence. 

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    • ArkhamDC06 wrote: Xehanort1307 It's beyond that, they're literally non-existent. Tricky to explain but in short, they have a body but this body is "made" of nonexistence. 

      Exactly

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    • 1) That doesn't counter what Triforce said. Just because the heart itself is abstract, doesn't mean people in KH in general are abstract. The concept of "Human" example still works here. At most this is Type 8 and even then, I do not remember someone just coming back without outside help from their heart.

      2) You know, just because a Nonexistent person is destroyed and they return, it doesn't make it automatically Mid Godly. And going by the scans, this is not Mid-Godly, just Type 8 reliant Immortality. Vanitas' survival is a bit iffy to me, I'll wait on staff input here once I highlight it.

      3) We really need to stop throwing out the word "concept" everywhere. Right now, it's NPI, but I am not sold on it being abstract and more Nonexistent.

      4) Pretty sure even Sera denied him killing Kairi. I don't see what's so different from the first time here.

      Can't go into detail fully on these points at this point in time so they are incomplete. Conceptual shit as a whole is more annoying for me to evaluate as that's not my strong suit hence why I steer away from KH conceptual shit seeing as I personally feel we abuse this concept shit to get upgrades these days. I'll highlight the thread for staff input.

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    • I agree with Triforce and DragonMaster

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    • Yeah, that's why I said that the conceptual stuff has to be accepted first, so that should be the main focus, the rest is assuming that got accepted, so to avoid this turning into a mess, please discuss more regarding the "heart", "light" and "darkness" being abstract stuff.

      Anyways, @Dragonmasterxyz

      1: They are tied to the concept of their own "heart", which is what allows them ("them" being anyone with a "heart") to exist, and it's not combat applicable for the most part as unlike those verses you may be thinking of, vessels to fill the "heart" in aren't just something that can be done with reality warping or stuff like that by the verse's standards, which is why you see in KHIII Naminé being able to come back with only her "heart" by entering a vessel with Sora's help, for example, alongside the whole Replica Project.

      2: Oh no, Mid-Godly is only for Heartless, Nobodies will just keep it as type 8 immortality for the reasons you said.

      3: As said before, this is mostly reliant on the "heart" and "darkness" being abstract and that stuff, Nobodies being intangible already got accepted, but that's a separate kind of NPI regardless, so please focus on the former unless you want to argue the Nobody one also being questionable.

      4: IIRC it was originally only for "No Name" wielders, but it's different here as now it's via scaling.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz seems to make sense.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I agree with Triforce and DragonMaster

      I also think so.

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    • Right now I'm waiting for replies from Triforce and Dragonmaster.

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    • 1) This I have an issue with. Why are we using "concept" to refer to a heart? Honestly, this doesn't even seem like Type 8. Hearts allow you to exist. While it's not actually the soul, it's still no different than a human needing their soul to exist or a more fictional example, a Digimon needing their Digicore (their entire essence) to exist. That doesn't warrant anything. People need to stop throwing around conceptual for everything...

      2) Even then, for Hearless this seems as nothing more than Type 8 as they comeback reliant on darkness. This isn't Mid-Godly, just reliant immortality.

      3) Let's talk about this "Darkness being abstract" actually. Just because Heartless themselves are tied to the Darkness =/= make them abstract. I am gonna need you to give me a TL;DR on how Heartless are "abstract" in themselves beyond being reliant on Darkness.

      4) No, she flat out went against Kairi's death being legit and even moreso on it being conceptual in nature. In fact these conceptual arguments are really not much different from the crap brought up here and I still agree with these rebuttals.

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    • I'd like to also question something the OP brought up: Marluxia says:

      1. "The rest of us can defeat Heartless, but we have no way of collecting the hearts they release." and 

      2. "Eventually, the hearts will turn right back into Heartless." 

      And other scans say (Bolding for emphasis.)

      1. "Heartless: One without a heart is darkness born from the recurring darkness. The embodiment of the darkness in one's heart which appears when a person's heart is lost to darkness. They have no knowledge or will, they simply run on dark instinct and go after the Hearts of Worlds as well as try to steal hearts from those with them in order to become greater in numbers." and

      2. "Pure Blood: "These Heartless come into existence naturally. If they are defeated with a Keyblade, the heart will be liberated. Many of the Heartless in the world are these."

      There is a whole Realm of Darkness where Heartless seem to spawn from, without end, & I'm unclear on how finite the RoD is, but even in the other realms, Heartless always appear in large numbers AND will readily take any Heart, because that's how new Heartless are created.

      So how do we know that if a Heartless is slain by non-Keyblade means, the Heartless that come about from the freed Heart are the SAME Heartless?

      If Heartless #1 dies in a supernova or whatever, its heart gets freed, & Heartless #2 spawns from the Heart that Heartless #1 was using, how are we sure it was Heartless #1 Regenerating & not a new Heartless using the Heart that Heartless #1 lost?

      (And yes, footage does depict Heartless seizing the freed Hearts fairly quickly after their release, but this also happens in The World That Never Was, which was at least close to the Darkness of Kingdom Hearts, & possibly the RoD itself; Heartless would spawn there much more readily than say, in the Realm of Light. So they do respawn fast, but I'm not sure what it proves about how their location is after slaying & a new heart is claimed, nor if it proves the Heartless appearing are old ones regenerating or new members of the horde.)

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:

      1: I'll elaborate further on "hearts" being of abstract nature as it seems you didn't get properly enought the explanations at the OP; because any being in KH can come back from just a "heart", which qualifies as type 2 AE, it not being virtually combat applicable as they need a "vessel"/body to go back to normal or else becoming a Heartless doesn't mean that anyone with a "heart" can't qualify for type 2 AE:

      "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it." - Abstract Existence

      Chirithy even says that "Death" is the natural outcome for those which body and "heart" perish together

      As we all know, a being with only a "heart" can go between multiple vessels this is why Luxu/Xigbar managed to stay alive for a countless amount of time in a ton of different vessels, then again, that falls as type 6 immortality, and I never said anything about them getting immortality type 8 from it, so the rest is up to debate and I'm neutral on what this may be, but I still think it can't just be absolutely nothing to take note of in profiles.

      Now, for the "heart", please check again, Chirithy was very explicit and all of this is consistent with the setting and the lore, I would like you to pinpoint everything you disagree regarding this.

      2:  How is reliant Immortality not correlated to Regeneration exactly?

      3: Heartless are made of "hearts" after being corrupted in darkness, beyond that, they qualified for type 2 AE as their entire nature isn't abstract as we all know, so NPI by being able to hit beings that can become intangible, rather than entire "abstract" entities is fine by me, for now at least.

      4: I would like you showing such scans, as IIRC Sora only meeted Naminé before the Kairi stuff happening, including also the time travel variant of Re:Mind.

      And as said before, Chirithy (Who is far more knowledgeable on this) states otherwise.

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    • I am with Dragon here he understand this level of hax better than I do so his explanations are far better than mine.

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    • Imaginym wrote:

      So how do we know that if a Heartless is slain by non-Keyblade means, the Heartless that come about from the freed Heart are the SAME Heartless?

      If Heartless #1 dies in a supernova or whatever, its heart gets freed, & Heartless #2 spawns from the Heart that Heartless #1 was using, how are we sure it was Heartless #1 Regenerating & not a new Heartless using the Heart that Heartless #1 lost?

      (And yes, footage does depict Heartless seizing the freed Hearts fairly quickly after their release, but this also happens in The World That Never Was, which was at least close to the Darkness of Kingdom Hearts, & possibly the RoD itself; Heartless would spawn there much more readily than say, in the Realm of Light. So they do respawn fast, but I'm not sure what it proves about how their location is after slaying & a new heart is claimed, nor if it proves the Heartless appearing are old ones regenerating or new members of the horde.)

      Simple, the "heart" is always of an specific subject, so if it turns into a Heartless, the Heartless is destroyed by conventional means and it turns back into a Heartless, it's still the same "heart" as the one of the start.

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    • @Bobsician: How do we know the "Heart" is always of an specific subject, though? Is there anything that prevents different darkness seizing the same Heart?

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    • 1) No, then that is simply Type 8. You are skipping the first portion here. They do not "embody" a heart, they simply have a heart. By the logic you are using, anyone with Type 8 should get Type 2 Abstract Existence which is not going to fly.

      "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it."

      2) Regeneration is you coming back by your own regenerative factor. Reliant Immortality is coming back via an outside force. It's quite simple.

      4) What are you talking about? How does this change whether Kairi died or not. Also Chirithy saying that changes literally nothing. She was saying to to Sora iirc who was in fact killed. However, to quote Sera herself.

      "More importantly, when did Xehanort kill Kairi? Death occurs when the soul and the body perish together. It’s stated in KH3 itself. Xion even tells Sora she still feels Kairi’s heart. She wasn’t killed, not in the way death works in the Kingdom Hearts universe.

      If Kaira actually died, Sora would not have been able to bring her back since the Power of Waking isn’t for reviving people from death. (It’s also not for restoring hearts but it can be used to do so).

      Yen Sid describes the Power of Waking as "the power to free a heart from its sleep".

      The Power of Waking is used to awaken sleeping hearts (for example, Ventus). Riku and Mickey also use it to try and save Aqua from the Realm of Darkness. It can also be used to restore hearts (apparently this involves time travel or time reversal), but according to Young Xehanort and later Mickey, it’s not supposed to be used for that and continuously using it in that way comes at a heavy price. Such price is becoming lost yourself, hence why Sora disappeared from his world and winded up in Shibuya (in the Yozora world).

      The Keyblade is all about hearts. What Xehanort did was expel Kairi’s heart from her body to provoke Sora. Xion outright tells Sora she can still feel Kairi’s heart. Kairi was not killed in any way. Death in Kingdom Hearts requires the body and heart perish at the same time. We know Kairi’s body disappeared but her heart was still around. She became a wandering heart, thus why Sora used the Power of Waking to restore her body.

      Xehanort did not kill Kairi, especially not on a “conceptual level”."

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    • Chirithy on the subject of Kairi's heart says

      Chirithy: Even with the power of waking you can't just bring someone back.

      Sora: But Kairi's heart hasn't been lost yet. She's still with us right?

      C: Maybe, but this time I'm afraid the situation is a lot worse.

      S: Hey, I've already restored six hearts. What's one more?

      C: But that's not how it's supposed to work at all. The Power of Waking is meant to used to wake and restore sleeping hearts, not to restore them after they've completely faded away from existence. You've done that six times now.

      The rest isn't needed. So in one second it can restore you from being erased and in the other it can't. Can the PoW restore erased hearts or can it not? Pick one. Also who were these "6 hearts" again my memory on the events of KH3 are pretty sloppy.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: Chirithy on the subject of Kairi's heart says

      Chirithy: Even with the power of waking you can't just bring someone back.

      Sora: But Kairi's heart hasn't been lost yet. She's still with us right?

      C: Maybe, but this time I'm afraid the situation is a lot worse.

      S: Hey, I've already restored six hearts. What's one more?

      C: But that's not how it's supposed to work at all. The Power of Waking is meant to used to wake and restore sleeping hearts, not to restore them after they've completely faded away from existence. You've done that six times now.

      The rest isn't needed. So in one second it can restore you from being erased and in the other it can't. Can the PoW restore erased hearts or can they not? Pick one. Also who were these "6 hearts" again my memory on the events of KH3 are pretty sloppy.

      The six hearts are the other guardians

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    • When they where killed by the huge heartless thing

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    • These would probably be the ones who were overwhelmed by Terra-Xehanort at the Keyblade Graveyard .The ones that were present at the time were: Sora, Donald, Goofy, Riku, Mickey, Kairi, Axel, Aqua, Ventus. Now I'm confused, these are more than six.

      I interpreted the "you can't just bring someone back" as meaning you can't simply do that and everything is gonna be alright which does make sense to me due to the price of using the power of waking improperly.

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    • Xehanort didn’t kill Kairi. That’s all I’m saying here.

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    • Shouldn't we begin with whether or not hearts, light and darkness are concepts? Everything else that is suggested in the OP hinges on it. The evidence for it has already been presented in the OP so is there something that speaks against it? Please elaborate if yes.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Shouldn't we begin with whether or not hearts, light and darkness are concepts? Everything else that is suggested in the OP hinges on it. The evidence for it has already been presented in the OP so is there something that speaks against it? Please elaborate if yes.

      It's less about whether the game itself speaks against it and more whether what's in the game fits within our standards. Which is what we've argued against here. Light and Darkness are not an issue. We're still going over Hearts as is.

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    • Well, if hearts aren't concepts, what are they then? They are not part of the body, are treated separate from the soul and the mind and exist everywhere. As what would the ability to manipulate hearts qualify?

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    • Based on the information given, Hearts are simply an essence. Not a concept.

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    • What would manipulating an essence qualify as? What sort of ability would we list in the Powers and Abilities section?

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    • To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.

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    • What do we put on the pages of the KH characters who would have it then?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Well, if hearts aren't concepts, what are they then? They are not part of the body, are treated separate from the soul and the mind and exist everywhere. As what would the ability to manipulate hearts qualify?

      It would simply be another level, or simply state, of existence, a franchise could have infinite number of them, but what makes something a concept is different than simply being from a higher level of existence.

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    • Everyone and everything has a heart. How is that a higher level of existence? That still doesn't answer what sort of ability manipulating hearts is.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Xehanort didn’t kill Kairi. That’s all I’m saying here.

      This video at 20:52: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=co8TBDdadfQ&feature=youtu.be&t=1256. Chirithy says that Sora already brought back six hearts after they've faded from existence with the implication that Kairi's heart also faded from existence

      This picture: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/641817356149981195/675789612421087279/20200123_010219.jpg. Sorry, the text isn't entirely visible but apparently no better picture was available.

      I know that I wrote that we should focus on hearts, light and darkness being concepts first but someone requested me to bring up these two links so I simply wanted to do that.

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    • I could have a soul and it could exists at another state of existence, it doesn't really have anything to do with "higher/lower" unless it's something that's said in the cosmology.

      Levels of existence is simply measure of how complex some "thing" is. If I read everything correctly, then KH simply has a cosmology with three levels of being, this has nothing to do with conceptual or another thing. It's just how many things makes someone, be that being.

      The heart being the "essence" of something is just another way of saying that.

      EDIT: The power is something specific that we simply doesn't have a page for that, at least we could specify that as above standard Non-Physical Interaction. I have plans to do something about franchises with multiple levels of existence, but I'm still working with the blog.

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    • Hearts are definitely non-physical but the page for Non-Physical Interaction specifies that it is for "beings" so it doesn't really fit.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I agree with Triforce and DragonMaster

      Same. Not buying the OP.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Hearts are definitely non-physical but the page for Non-Physical Interaction specifies that it is for "beings" so it doesn't really fit.

      Objects can also be non-physical or intangible; as the creator of the page here, I will say it does Non-Physical Interaction does apply to those too. I guess I will have to update the page soon or later since there is confusion on the wording.

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    • Elizhaa wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote:
      Hearts are definitely non-physical but the page for Non-Physical Interaction specifies that it is for "beings" so it doesn't really fit.

      Objects can also be non-physical or intangible; as the creator of the page here, I will say it does it does apply to those too. I guess I will have to update the page soon or later since there is confusion on the wording.

      You should probably do that.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.

      That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.

      Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

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    • How do we treat Chirithy's statement about Sora being conceptually in pieces?

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.
      That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.

      Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

      Essence Manipulation is not Conceptual Manipulation though. Not once have we done that. Ex in fact just explained Essences here.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:

      Bobsican wrote:
      Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      To be quite honest, we've never had "Essence Manipulation" on site due to it not really being needed before.
      That's because we concluded it's redundant as Conceptual Manipulation exists, meaning that it actually would fall as Concept Manip.

      Wait for my main reply to your points, however.

      Essence Manipulation is not Conceptual Manipulation though. Not once have we done that. Ex in fact just explained Essences here.

      He is still working on his main reply. Shouldn't you wait for that?

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    • No because I am going over the false assumption that we treat "essence" as "concepts" which he stated. I will address his main reply when he posts it, simple as that.

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    • Okay.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:

      1) The difference is that here it's by a concept, everyone in KH embodies their own concept, "heart", which is why.

      2) Hardly any difference in practical use in this case respectively, so it is only a matter of how it's listed on a profile, so you can feel free to elaborate how it would be listed if we go by your notion, to be sure the differences beyond the way it's listed doesn't matter.

      4) Xion never actually says she feels Kairi's heart, she didn't even went in detail either, so that's too dubious to take it like that without making assumptions.

      As for your question regarding PoW, yes, it can restore "hearts", but as Chirithy said, it's not meant to be used like that, then again, it's done with Causality Manipulation as that has been accepted and discussed in past CRTs, so that doesn't change anything.

      Wandering heart? Of course not, right at the start of Re:Mind, Sora had to collect the pieces of her "heart" across the past journey he did in the Keyblade Graveyard by time traveling, which isn't much different from him collecting the pieces of his own "heart" back when it got shattered.

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    • Bobsican, you should probably explain why Essence Manipulation is Conceptual Manipulation according to you since Dragonmasterxyz disagrees with that.

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    • "The Lich you've been fighting—it's not like other Heartless. It exists to usher hearts down to the depths of darkness." - Young Xehanort

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3CgBtEF6rNU&feature=youtu.be&t=29530

      Just adding this regarding Sora bringing people back from the dead with the power of waking.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      Very well, it's all in the OP, but I guess I shall summarize it:

      First of all, as explained, this wasn't meant to point into all of that falling as "Essence Manipulation", as described in the OP, this supports Coneptual Manipulation, rather than it simply being another thing.

      I'll go ahead and quote stuff from the OP as it seems a good chunk is being ignored:

      - Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs

      - Sora literally states that hearts are all around us. https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=4m45

      - The Kingdom Hearts Memorial Ultimania further backs this up. https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt

      - The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existencehttps://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Ansem%27s_Reports https://youtu.be/XYKtJUdqgfA?t=24m26s

      - Nomura himself (aka, Word of God) states that everything in KH has a heart

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    • Imaginym wrote:
      @Bobsician: How do we know the "Heart" is always of an specific subject, though? Is there anything that prevents different darkness seizing the same Heart?

      Please move this to another thread, this is somewhat off-topic.

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    • 1) No they do not. They have a heart, they do not embody the "concept" of hearts. I still don't even buy hearts as concepts, but simply a higher form of existence.

      4) So you basically are showing that her heart still existed. This contradicts these hearts being "erased" when there are still pieces that can be collected and put together.

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    • "Sora in the Final World was conceptually in pieces. During when you collect the phantoms, the heart is in the upper right screen along with a number counter, implying that Sora was collecting pieces of his heart. https://imgur.com/a/zGdt9q5 https://youtu.be/zgBaWRjCnCs"

      "Conceptually in pieces" is very flowery at base. Especially when the other evidence you have doesn't make the hearts out to be truly conceptual. Simply mentioning "conceptually" is not enough to prove anything. For a guy whose concept was apparently erased, he sure isn't having issues finding said concepts.

      "Sora literally states that hearts are all around us"

      Where? Link the exact scene. That also doesn't prove anything.

      "The heart is made up of light and darkness, both making up existence"

      This doesn't make it conceptual. Dark Area Digimon are made up of darkness, but they aren't conceptual in nature. This is no different. Heart is made of light and darkness, doesn't mean it's conceptual.

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    • Hearts can be concepts just like they can be simply higher forms of existence or simply "metaphysical essences", none of them are mutually exclusive terms.

      The problem right now is more a case of our pages not being adapted to deal with these types of cosmology in a very specific way. Right now the biggest point that would differ "conceptual" from simply "essences" would be: "Conceptual Manipulation involves the manipulation of universal concepts". Universal as all the particular things that exists in a set of things.

      This is what makes the "hearts" as not being "concepts" but simply "metaphysical essences". Is more a matter of "size" than really about difference because of levels of existence.

      If the hearts are what make "you"... "you", then is a "particular essence" and not a "universal essence", and by that I mean a "universal concept" (Or simply a concept).

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    • 1) Why plural? They embody their own "heart", not hearts in general.

      4) Sora time traveled to the past before the stuff happened to collect them, however

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    • If light and darkness are concepts and hearts are made of them, doesn't that mean hearts are made out of concepts? Wouldn't that be a different case compared to the Dark Area Digimon? (Please correct me if I'm wrong. I don't know much about the Dark Area Digimon.)

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    • 1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.

      4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

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    • Executor N0 wrote:

      Oh yeah, that's why before they qualified as just type 3 concepts, then Light and Darkness were found to qualify for type 2 concepts and so everything related to it (namely "hearts") also scaled to it, as explained in my blog from which a good chunk of the OP comes from

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: 1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.

      4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

      Regarding 4): If Sora time travels to a point before a heart ceased to exist in order to collect it, then there shouldn't be anything contradictory since the heart exists in the time he traveled to. It just wouldn't exist in the time he came from.

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    • 4) Yes it is. Is this a different timeline's Kairi? Is this the same Kairi? The issue is that the current Kairi's heart should not exist in general. Yet he's able to put it back together. And even ignoring this, this is nothing but basic EE. Nothing truly conceptual.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      1) Because there is not legitimate concept of a "heart". Heart here is just an essence, not a concept.

      4) He time travels to collect a heart that doesn't exist. See how that's contradictory?

      1) See my reply above regarding concept types

      4) In the past it obviously still existed, Xehanort still erased her, unlike in Sora's case (in which it just got fragmented. It's literally stated that his heart had survived complete destruction because of Kairi. That's the entire reason how he even survived), while in Kairi's case... not so much.

      And yes, it's the same timeline; having your concept erased totally qualifies as conceptual EE, Nobodies (which lack a "heart") are clear cases where not having a "heart" means you don't truly exist.

      Now, for your other reply:

      a) Conceptually in pieces is pretty explicit, it can't really be taken as anything else beyond the ridiculous "self-concept" stuff that already got debunked as Sora clearly remembers who he is and everything else as usual.

      b) https://youtu.be/LbXiZdKUo4s?t=286

      c) See "a)"

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    • If "conceptually in pieces" is flowery language, in what state was Sora in the Final World and what were the Sora's he was collecting?

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    • @Bobsican And this is why I said that we need to be more clear about that. "singular essences" and "universal concepts" can exist at the same level, but still be different simply because the singular is a part of the universal.

      Light and Darkness makes up all existence, well then this would be a universal. The heart is made up of light and darkness, this would still be at the same level, but it wouldn't be a concept. Is just like the darkness as a whole is a concept, but I destroying the darkness in your body isn't conceptual destruction. It is still at the "same level of being", but the darkness itself would be a concept, while the darkness in your body would just be a part of the whole, something that is "particular" and not "universal".

      Light and Darkness as a whole would be a concept (Or something like that), but what is made of these two at the same level, wouldn't really be. If everything has an individual heart, then each of these hearts are simply particular essences, unique to each being.

      To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: 4) Yes it is. Is this a different timeline's Kairi? Is this the same Kairi? The issue is that the current Kairi's heart should not exist in general. Yet he's able to put it back together. And even ignoring this, this is nothing but basic EE. Nothing truly conceptual.

      It would simply be the Kairi from the past. Kairi existed in the past which is why pieces of her heart that Sora could collect existed. Him collecting the pieces resulted in her being recompleted, brought to the Final World and then going to the present.

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    • Oh great, the wiki just ate my reply...>.> 

      Whatever, Ex explained it better....(I'm not retyping all that)

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    • Executor N0 wrote: @Bobsican And this is why I said that we need to be more clear about that. "singular essences" and "universal concepts" can exist at the same level, but still be different simply because the singular is a part of the universal.

      Light and Darkness makes up all existence, well then this would be a universal. The heart is made up of light and darkness, this would still be at the same level, but it wouldn't be a concept. Is just like the darkness as a whole is a concept, but I destroying the darkness in your body isn't conceptual destruction. It is still at the "same level of being", but the darkness itself would be a concept, while the darkness in your body would just be a part of the whole, something that is "particular" and not "universal".

      Light and Darkness as a whole would be a concept (Or something like that), but what is made of these two at the same level, wouldn't really be. If everything has an individual heart, then each of these hearts are simply particular essences, unique to each being.

      To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

      In that case, manipulating Kingdom Hearts should qualify as Conceptual Manipulation since it is the embodiment of all hearts. This would apply to the X-Blade which is explicitly used for that purpose and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold Kingdom Hearts back to some degree.

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    • No one disagreed with manipulating being Conceptual Manipulation. The X-Blade is perfectly fine.

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    • Regular Keyblade Wielders would also qualify due to the Guardians of Light managing to hold Kingdom Hearts back to some degree.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: No one disagreed with manipulating being Conceptual Manipulation. The X-Blade is perfectly fine.

      I did remove Conceptual Manipulation from the page of the X-Blade so I would still have to re-add it.

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    • Executor N0 wrote:

      To a heart be a concept, something universal, it would be something like the heart of the whole "world", what makes the "world" the "world" or something like that.

      Actually, "worlds" themselves in KH have "hearts" too, and KH is the ultimate culmination of those, not only of "worlds", but also of the "heart" of anyone, and it's even stated that "Light" and "Darkness" all came from Kingdom Hearts itself.

      "For Kingdom Hearts itself to be brought forth, it needs to be summoned by a higher dimensional clash forged from the X-Blade. Xehanort, space-time was used as a portal to push him and the X-Blade out of the world for a time due to him 'transcending space and time'. The result is Scala Ad Caelum, the place where Kingdom Hearts resides. This shows that the thing that created all light, and is the embodiment of all light, exists above and isn’t bound by the universe.

      "2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown."

      The current definition of a False Platonic falls under what can make light and darkness type 2 concepts. Bringing up another thread, Chaos in Castlevania was accepted as being a type 2 concept for predating the universe, which Kingdom Hearts, light, and darkness were stated to have existed before."

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: Oh great, the wiki just ate my reply...>.> 

      Whatever, Ex explained it better....(I'm not retyping all that)

      Sorry for that. That happened to me a few times as well. I don't know how long your reply was though.

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    • btw I am done with replying to this for today. I'll see how this thread develops by tomorrow.

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    • @Bobsican I knew about that and this is why I said that the "heart of the world" would be of conceptual nature.

      But just that. If everything has a heart, only the heart of the whole world would be of conceptual nature, every singular heart would just be the just be a particular essence, just like a soul, mind or any disembodied consciousness-type thing.

      And by "world" I mean the set of every single thing in a certain level of existence, not a parallels universes or something like that.

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    • From what I'm seeing, Dragonmaster seems to be making sense. I really don't buy a lot of the concepts being tossed out here. 

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: If "conceptually in piece" is flowery language, in what state was Sora in the Final World and what were the Sora's he was collecting?

      I'm just posting this again since nobody answered this.

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    • Executor N0 wrote:

      Since it's the highest point of their existence, What acts like regenerating from the heart or destroying one qualify for? Obviously soul manip or a higher form of it is a no as the verse explicitly considers the "heart" and the "soul" being separate things. Seriously, it's pretty blatant and there's a ton of lore and context backing up "hearts" being of abstract nature, essences are heavily tied with concepts by definition, for instance: "es·sence /ˈesəns/ the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character." - The OP, feel free to look this up, variants of the definition remark to being an indispensable quality of something such as Oxford and Cambridge, for example, meaning that, yes, this backs up "hearts" being concepts. Unlike the "Body" or the "Soul", a "heart" defines the subject's, even things that aren't alive whatsoever have "hearts"

      Anyways...

      @Dragonmasterxyz

      Chirithy's statement is talking about how you aren't supposed to used the Power of Waking like that, not that it can't restore erased hearts, leaving this clear to avoid further misconceptions.

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    • Dragonmaster and Triforce are making the most sense according to me.

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    • @Dragonmasterxyz & Executor N0

      So what should we do here in summary?

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    • Coming back from your heart being destroyed is simply returning from nothingness in some way shape or form.

      We disagree with every single person being abstracts as we have noted above.

      Many people (including people more knowledgeable on this stuff than I) also seem to agree that the OP is not convincing for the changes they wish to make. I do not have the time to constantly go in circles with Bob over this and so I will let others air their opinions on this.

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    • @Bobsican Yes, Souls and Hearts are different things in KH, but it's just the name. Names mean nothing unless we understand their meaning. As far as I know, the Soul of a franchise X can be the equivalent to the Heart while the Mind of X can be the Soul in KH.

      I know what a essence is and I already said that I agree with the hearts being essences, but you also need to understand what I'm saying while I'm talking about essences, this is why I said to look in my blog in my very first reply.

      Essences are what makes you... "you" and they can exists in multiple numbers thought different levels of being. The "Being" in KH appears to be separated into three things, body, soul and then heart. The name doesn't matter, we should simply care about the number of levels and how they interact with each other.

      The "heart" being more "abstract" than the "soul" doesn't make it "Abstract Existence" as is with the "Abstract Existence" page, this is only to universal concepts that are embodied by what is understood as a "singular" being.

      As far as I understood, only the "Kingdom Heart" would be a "universal concept" thing, every other heat would only be another metaphysical particular essence just like the Soul. It isn't the same thing in the KH-verse, but for us, we don't really need to say that it's something that is equal to a conceptual existence, as far as our pages are concerned.

      If you want to make this "higher metaphysical essence" to equal to "concepts", we would need to change our pages to work with this other idea.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: Coming back from your heart being destroyed is simply returning from nothingness in some way shape or form.

      We disagree with every single person being abstracts as we have noted above.

      Many people (including people more knowledgeable on this stuff than I) also seem to agree that the OP is not convincing for the changes they wish to make. I do not have the time to constantly go in circles with Bob over this and so I will let others air their opinions on this.

      Even if hearts don't don't get accepted as concepts, Vanitas returning from getting his heart destroyed should be Mid-Godly Regeneration since the body and the soul/mind got destroyed as well and regenerating from that is the definition for Mid-Godly on the page for Regeneration. In fact it would be superior to regular Mid-Godly Regeneration since the heart got destroyed too and is explicitly separate from the body and the soul/mind.

      Actually, I disagree with every character from Kingdom Hearts getting Abstract Existence as well even if hearts being concepts gets accepted. In my opinion everyone having hearts would simply be part of the fundamental rules of the verse and characters from other verses would also have hearts in versus threads involving KH characters due to verse equalization. Therefore I think that actually listing it on the profiles for characters who cannot actually do anything with it is redundant. Characters that should have Abstract Existance, if hearts get accepted as concepts, would be in my opinion those that can still make meaningful actions while being reduced to nothing but a heart or those that do not consist out of anything but a heart or darkness (which seems to be already accepted as concept) to begin with.

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    • The Soul is just a spiritual body, not an abstract concept. Example of an abstract concept or conceptual manipulation would be to erase the concept of pain. And now no one in the Universe/Multiverse can feel pain at all until someone recreates the concept of pain.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: The Soul is just a spiritual body, not an abstract concept. Example of an abstract concept or conceptual manipulation would be to erase the concept of pain. And now no one in the Universe/Multiverse can feel pain at all until someone recreates the concept of pain.

      Nobody argued for the soul to be a concept.

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    • I think that we can probably apply what Dragon and Executor have suggested at this point, rather than repeat ourselves.

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    • Agreed.

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    • Wait, I still have new things to point out.

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    • What would get applied?

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    • Executor N0 wrote:

      >They're made of universal concepts

      By that logic we'd have to remove characters that can conceptually kill you from having conceptual manipulation.

      Doraemon's concept manip needs to go now since it's not him affecting it universally

      Conceptual Manipulation (He has various conceptual armaments within his arsenal)

      Gilgamesh's concept manip needs to go now since it's not universal it's just armamemnts

      Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3. Stated in the manga to be capable of erasing or restoring demons' names like his father)

      I could go on and on, there's clearly double standards here.

      Arguing that a heart isn't universal because it's singular would remove like 99% of conceptual users from having such a power

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    • You are quoting from Discord?

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    • Yep, it's pretty solid as it is, especially considering half of the VSBW KH experts in there are tired of the site to the point I have to be the one transfering information here, and yes, they all agree with the content on the OP, although I doubt that changes much.

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    • Why are they tired of the site? Has something specific happened?

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    • I think they just got tired of having to deal with the knowledgeable staff over double standards and too many fallacies or so as far I remember, the last time we ended up getting a wiki-wide CRT over certain standards IIRC.

      However, that's derailing from the main topic.

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    • Then make a point to remove them. Not everyone here was there when those powers were accepted. Don't assume everyone who disagrees with this, agrees with that. Feel free to downgrade them. This is not about them though, if you all feel we have a double standard to Kingdom Hearts, how about you target those verses or simply go elsewhere to peoplr who will accept your changes.

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    • I mean from what I've heard, Fate's concept stuff actually may not fit into our concept standards for the random conceptual weapons due to not being universal, and I think kep was to look further in to that.

      Doraemon also doesn't have a very good explanation, so sure remove him. I don't get concept manip for being able to hold concept art or whatever, and everything participates in concepts in some way.

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    • Does that mean we need general revisions about Conceptual Manipulation?

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    • A lot of Fate's conceptual manipulation is closer to casuality/fate manipulation iirc. Just a quick tidbit. 

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Does that mean we need general revisions about Conceptual Manipulation?

      TBH I wouldn't mind this, as the issue appears that KH is too unique to properly fit into the current variants of Concept Manip, so perhaps some editing here and there is needed to deal with this sort of cases, assuming concepts indeed have to be "universal" in scale to qualify for concept manip, as apparently there's plenty of cases on the wiki where that's not the case and yet they have it.

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    • @Bobsican I don't know about these verses, but if it's the case, I agree.

      To be fair, I would agree more with revision the whole "conceptual/abstract/essence" things. There are some verses were the use of the word "concept" is accepted as "conceptual manipulation", but if we are going to really understand the very concept of a "platonic concept", we will learn that even souls, spirits and minds can be a "concept", or simply a "essence".

      It's more the case of higher levels of being than really with words like concepts or spirits or even souls.

      If our standards simply aren't good enough to study these cases, they would need to be updated.

      After all, if we are dealing with our standards as not being good enough and verses would need to be "treated different" because of that until proper revision, I agree that we should simply update our standards.

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    • I agree about that several wrongs do not make a right, and about that the other verses should be updated as well if they have inaccurate information.

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    • I guess I can go ahead and do a CRT over "Non-Universal" concepts regarding Concept Manip?

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    • Regardless of whether or not individual hearts qualify as concepts, affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. This would apply to the X-Blade for allowing it's user to control Kingdom Hearts and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold back Kingdom Hearts using their Keyblades. Can I go ahead and add it?

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      I guess I can go ahead and do a CRT over "Non-Universal" concepts regarding Concept Manip?

      Quoting because this seems to be important, as the "Non-Universal" concepts are the main thing of this CRT, so this can't really be properly discussed further without the CRT above being done first.

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    • I will check.

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    • I've been told by Yumi-tan that the concept of one's indidivuality (usually represented as a "heart" (kokoro) is not specifically conceptual in the way westerners understand the term. It's just what makes someone them,

      Kingdom Hearts has a lot of Jungian Psychology behind it (and Daoist Cosmology, but that's another topic). So we're dealing with Jungian archetypes, not concepts.

      Concept in fiction is a buzz word (look no further than Nasuverse for examples), it's usually fluff. It's why I try to observe the original words spoken and (due to not needing subtitles) ignore subs entirely.

      I don't know what the wiki classifies Jungian Archetypes as, but whatever we do, that's pivotal to understanding this and well help out with Persona and Xeno revisions in the future.

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    • Jungian Archtypes are Type 2 according to the NIGHTS thread, and they're why NIGHTS has it. However, I've heard that scaling fiction to RL concepts are very dubious, and it's not that verses should be upgraded, but NIGHTS should be downgraded.

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    • I don't recall NIGHTS type 2 conceptual manipulation ever being accepted by staff.

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    • Strange, it's on the profile.

      Ultima iirc decided on it being Type 2, transcending reality, but not Type 1.

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    • Well, it's completely off topic to this thread and the previous thread appears to still be open so you should ask there. However, I did look at it and it mostly seemed like it was just memory manipulation and dream manipulation. The word Concept appears to be thrown around as flowery language.

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    • Thread is hard to read, links are slapped everywhere. But I'll look I guess, because like Sera said it can be a pretty big buff depending on if it's accepted.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Regardless of whether or not individual hearts qualify as concepts, affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. This would apply to the X-Blade for allowing it's user to control Kingdom Hearts and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold back Kingdom Hearts using their Keyblades. Can I go ahead and add it?

      Just posting this again since nobody answered.

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    • Yeah, manipulating KH(which is the concept of light amd predates the Realm of Light) should be conceptual manipulation

      Also the X-Blade would have manipulate not just the concept of light but also the concept of darkness

      The Guardian should scale to this since they wre capable of holding back KH with their keyblade and they also sealed one side of KH

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote:
      Thread is hard to read, links are slapped everywhere. But I'll look I guess, because like Sera said it can be a pretty big buff depending on if it's accepted.

      Sorry, I had to show all the proof I could think of in some way without having to straight up just paste "https://..." and so on over 4 times each paragraph.

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    • I think I should also point that Heartless and Keyblade Wielders can affect the "heart" of each World in the series, which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world.

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    • Bobsican wrote: I think I should also point that Heartless and Keyblade Wielders can affect the "heart" of each World in the series, which is every single heart from that world into a single large one. Affecting that affects the entirety of the world.

      I knew that worlds have hearts but the heart of a world is every single heart from that world into a single large one? Could you tell me where you have that from?

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    • So what should we do here?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote: Regardless of whether or not individual hearts qualify as concepts, affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as type 2 Conceptual Manipulation. This would apply to the X-Blade for allowing it's user to control Kingdom Hearts and the regular Keyblade since the Guardians of Light managed to hold back Kingdom Hearts using their Keyblades. Can I go ahead and add it?

      Just posting this again since nobody answered.

      Well, I'd like my question to be answered. The rest is dependent on the revisions for non-universal concepts.

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    • Okay.

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    • What is the answer to my question?

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    • I dunno if holding back KH in a power struggle really constitutes as Conceptual Manipulation.

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    • Holding back KH is debatable but the X-Blade has 100% Conceptual Manipulation

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    • Holding Kingdom Hearts back means you are affecting it and affecting Kingdom Hearts should qualify as Conceptual Manipulation since you are affecting the embodiment of all hearts.

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    • I don't know if that's how that works whatsoever. Maybe someone more knowledgeable can correct me.

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    • "Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars."

      This is quoted from the page for Abstract Existence.

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    • However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a type of power struggle correct? Thus it simply would be NPE where keyblade users can interact with a Type 1 Abstract. I also do not remember us giving those who can harm Type 1 Abstracts or things similar Conceptual Manipulation automatically. Once again, i may be mistaken.

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote: Holding back KH is debatable but the X-Blade has 100% Conceptual Manipulation

      ^

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    • No one cares about the X-Blade as the X-Blade is set for nearly everything.

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    • Aside from the fact that there isn't the conceptual manipulation hax, the profile of the X-Blade is fine

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a type of power struggle correct? Thus it simply would be NPE where keyblade users can interact with a Type 1 Abstract. I also do not remember us giving those who can harm Type 1 Abstracts or things similar Conceptual Manipulation automatically. Once again, i may be mistaken.

      I'm not exactly knowledgeable about that myself. If it actually qualifies for Non-Physical Interaction, I'm fine with it but this would have to be confirmed by someone who is knowledgeable.

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    • I do not know if that was exactly a power struggle

      The Guardian were standing still and holding their keyblade towards KH, trying to hold it back, KH did nothing up until Xehanort summoned the X-Blade in Scala, then darkness engulfed more the KH,destroying the light seals and Xehanort's replicas started to appears

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      Dragonmasterxyz wrote: However, correct me if I'm wrong, but this was a type of power struggle correct? Thus it simply would be NPE where keyblade users can interact with a Type 1 Abstract. I also do not remember us giving those who can harm Type 1 Abstracts or things similar Conceptual Manipulation automatically. Once again, i may be mistaken.

      I'm not exactly knowledgeable about that myself. If it actually qualifies for Non-Physical Interaction, I'm fine with it but this would have to be confirmed by someone who is knowledgeable.

      Is there someone sufficiently knowledgeable I could contact for that?

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    • ^^

      Well, just harming them would be NPI.

      It should be noted that the ability to interact with abstract entities (Type 1) directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered as non-physical interaction, and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate concepts in other contexts.
      ~ Conceptual Manipulation
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    • Elizhaa wrote: ^^

      Well, just harming them would be NPI.

      It should be noted that the ability to interact with abstract entities (Type 1) directly as if they were physical objects is usually considered as non-physical interaction, and does not grant the user the ability to manipulate concepts in other contexts.
      ~ Conceptual Manipulation

      It wasn't harming Kingdom Hearts. They were keeping Kingdom Hearts at bay and they did that with light rays they shot using their Keyblades so they weren't interacting with it like a physical object. Would that still be Non-Physical Interaction?

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    • By the way, why should Kingdom Hearts be the embodiment of light or whatever instead of simply being able to manipulate these concepts? Did I miss something here?

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    • Ah, it sounds like NPI if their light ray attacks were pushing back Kingdom Hearts. 

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote: By the way, why should Kingdom Hearts be the embodiment of light or whatever instead of simply being able to manipulate these concepts? Did I miss something here?

      Kingdom Hearts is the embodiment of all hearts. It is described as the heart of all worlds and all instances of it's incomplete versions appearing before KHIII were conglomerations of hearts.

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    • Elizhaa wrote: Ah, it sounds like NPI if their light ray attacks were pushing back Kingdom Hearts. 

      I don't think that they were physically pushing back Kingdom Hearts.

      Watch the beginning of this clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SL77_10T5Ho

      Nothing really indicates that they are pushing it back.

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    • Bump.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      Honestly, I am not seeing anything that looks conceptual. It looks after they defeated Xehanort, Kingdom Hearts was closed since it was Xehanorts who made open it was defeated.

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    • No, they had to use the X-Blade to close it, Sora even asked for help from the other Guardians of Light, which then proceeded to use their own Keyblades for this, IIRC.

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    • This video at 8:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMBFFH3aPw

      The Guardians of Light were busy keeping Kingdom Hearts shut due to it being a bigger threat than Xehanort which should technically require affecting it. They were affecting Kingdom Hearts and they were definitely not doing so in a physical sense, therefore they should get Conceptual Manipulation and not Non-Physical Interaction for that.

      This video at 12:13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vozdC4HlFs.

      That video shows Sora and the others closing Kingdom Hearts after they defeated Xehanort so Kingdom Hearts didn't close automatically because of Xehanort being defeated. Unlike what Bobsican wrote though, the Guardians of Light didn't use their Keyblades in that instance.

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    • Oh yeah, one of the KH experts that doesn't want to touch this thread directly also told me to point out that Heartless are entirely dependent on darkness, a concept, to regen from, which is outright type 2 AE. Pureblood are entirely made up of darkness, that should be enough for an abstract physiology. They're straight up manifestations/avatars of darkness. Emblem are shown regening from their hearts, that's literally still regen. That's leads to type 3 immortality. Emblem regen fron their hearts while Pureblood regen from darkness as their heart is apart of it now

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    • Don't they have to actually embody the concept of darkness itself to qualify, not just draw power from it?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Don't they have to actually embody the concept of darkness itself to qualify, not just draw power from it?

      Yes.

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    • @Elizhaa

      Could you give an answer to my comment further above?

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    • Uhhh.. they actually do.

      For example, here's some canon descriptions regarding a Pureblood species, Darkball:

      "Heartless born purely out of darkness. Their movements are unpredictable, as they often make sudden moves and attacks."

      "A Heartless made from the very shadows of darkness. The Darkball mostly just bobs through the air, but its random weaving and biting are a nuisance."

      "Heartless hewn from the very shadows. Usually they just waft through the air, but they can be annoyingly unpredictable, bobbing around erratically or charging right at you without a moment's warning."

      It's clear that power being drawn isn't even brought up, nor my previous reply suggested so respectively, but either way, Heartless being conceptual embodiments of darkness appears to be the case.

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    • They’re just made of darkness, they aren’t darkness itself

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      @Elizhaa

      Could you give an answer to my comment further above?

      I am neutral; if Abstract Existence (Type 1) is seen as valid for Kingdom Hearts, then I think it would be conceptual manipulation, at least for the instance.

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    • If that is the case, can I add the Abstract Existence to Kingdom Hearts and the Conceptual Manipulation to the Keyblade and it's wielders or does that still need more input? As far as I could tell nobody was denying that Kingdom Hearts has Abstract Existence.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      If that is the case, can I add the Abstract Existence to Kingdom Hearts and the Conceptual Manipulation to the Keyblade and it's wielders or does that still need more input? As far as I could tell nobody was denying that Kingdom Hearts has Abstract Existence.

      You need more inputs; the topic need to be accepted by ample Discussion Moderators and/or Administrators.

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    • Okay, then I'll wait for more input.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote: They’re just made of darkness, they aren’t darkness itself

      This is correct, yes.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: If that is the case, can I add the Abstract Existence to Kingdom Hearts and the Conceptual Manipulation to the Keyblade and it's wielders or does that still need more input? As far as I could tell nobody was denying that Kingdom Hearts has Abstract Existence.

      You should ask Sera EX to comment here about that. There might be other staff members listed in the Kingdom Hearts verse page as well.

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    • I've contacted them.

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    • By the way, no one posted scans for Kingdom Hearts being abstract in nature. Can someone post them please?

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    • This link from the OP might be sufficient: https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt.

      There is also this link from the OP: https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS. Look at the first question of part 1.

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    • I mean, that just proves that it’s non-corporeal due to being made of hearts. Not that its existence is abstract. Isn’t there something else?

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    • Kingdom Hearts is formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds: https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort.27s_Report_III.

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    • "The darkness of the heart, made flesh. Cursed shadows who not only lack hearts, but multiply by seizing hearts from any and all living things.Where have they come from, and where are they going?" -Secret Ansem Report 4

      Heartless   "One without a heart is darkness born from the recurring darkness. The embodiment of the darkness in one’s heart which appears when a person’s heart is lost to darkness. They have no knowledge or will, they simply run on dark instinct and go after the Hearts of Worlds as well as try to steal hearts from those with them in order to become greater in numbers. There are various kinds of Heartless, but they are generally categorized in two main types; those who appear naturally are known as “Pure Blood”, and approximately 10 years before KH1, during an experiment Xehanort (Seeker of Darkness Ansem) birthed the “Emblem” Heartless. Heartless began appearing in greater numbers in the Realm of Light due to Ansem’s interference, and when he was defeated in KH1 it helped keep the numbers down, however as long as darkness exists within people’s hearts, there will always be Heartless." -Memorial Ultimania

      Pureblood aren't just corrupt hearts, they're entirely darkness. Their hearts become became a part of the darkness due to the darkness they had in their hearts, meaning that they are abstract entities (Type 2)  if we accept that Darkness is an abstract thing in KH

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    • Heartless should be at least type 3 abstract, tho i agree with them beeing type 2 abstract

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    • Type 3 is for Conceptual Manipulation. Abstract Existence only has Type 1 and 2.

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    • Oh, i thought there was a type 3, my bad

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    • It's alright. I just pointed it out.

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    • I think that we should only list them with abstract existence if they embodied all darkness as a whole. Being made of and drawing power from it is not the same thing.

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    • "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it." - Abstract Existence

      As it seems we do accept Darkness as an abstract thing in KH, yeah, it's pretty solid.

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    • Not replying past this comment, but DDD states that Pureblood Heartless are the very darkness that have been in the world since its inception.

      On another note, Nobodies are statement to be the very emobidment of emptinessdue to being denied the right to exist by both light and darkness as a whole. This should be NEP Type 2 due to light and darkness being the most fundemental parts of existence.

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    • I still do not see how they embody the entire concept rather than simply draw power from and being composed of it. They are not similar to, for example, Mother Night (Vertigo) or Nocturnal.

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    • Guess I'll continue replying, meh. Pureblood eartless are consistently stated to embody darkness, fact that DDD and KH3 state that they're the darkness since the world's inception makes that clear. The examples you listed are of type 1 AEs, not type 2.

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    • They are made of darkness, not the conceptual embodiments of all of it, which I think is intended as required for abstract existence. What you describe is more akin to simply being Non-Corporeal.

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    • Fine, but what about Nobodies having Type 2 NEP?

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    • I am not sure about Nonexistent Physiology. Further input from experienced members would be appreciated.

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    • I thought being pure darkness was NEP Type 1?

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    • PlozAlcachaz wrote:
      I thought being pure darkness was NEP Type 1?

      It is not without any form of valid Statements.

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    • Elizhaa wrote:

      Explain why it's context dependent please, I'm just curious.

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    • Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts (World)

      Conceptual Manipulation for X-Blade and Keyblade

      Can someone tell me if any of this is fine to add?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts (World)

      Conceptual Manipulation for X-Blade and Keyblade

      Can someone tell me if any of this is fine to add?

      Like I said before, you need more Discussion Moderators and/or Administrators' inputs on agreements first.

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    • @Elizhaa

      I haven't forgotten that but I still wanted to call some attention to it since nobody was writing something about it.

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    • Bump.

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    • I've done that now.

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    • Thanks.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • Bump.

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    • You can write a summary of the arguments here to help them out, and then ask a few more.

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    • Okay, I'll do that when I'm back at my home from school.

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    • Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts (World)

      Kingdom Hearts is the collective heart of the World: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/538624028831907850/623252344779309071/unknown.png.

      Kingdom Hearts is formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds: https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort.27s_Report_III.

      Every existence has a heart and the collection of all kinds of hearts results in Kingdom Hearts: https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt.

      "The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such. A Kingdom Hearts is considered to be an aggregation of the originally invisible "proofs of life" known as hearts.": https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS


      Conceptual Manipulation for X-Blade and Keyblade

      The X-Blade can be used to control Kingdom Hearts which is why Xehanort wanted it in the first place.

      This video at 8:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMBFFH3aPw

      The Guardians of Light were busy keeping Kingdom Hearts shut due to it being a bigger threat than Xehanort.

      This video at 12:13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vozdC4HlFs.

      Sora and the others close Kingdom Hearts after they defeated Xehanort.


      Elizhaa suggested the possibility of the instance of the Guardians of Light affecting Kingdom Hearts being a case of Non-Physical Interaction but this isn't the case since they weren't affecting Kingdom Hearts in a physical manner.

      TriforcePower1 wrote that Kingdom Hearts would have Incorporeality due to being made of hearts but he didn't give me an answer after I posted in response the link about Kingdom Hearts being formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds.


      Is that enough for a summary or did I miss something?

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    • That is probably fine. Thanks.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • Bump.

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    • Have you asked some staff for help?

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    • I forgot that and will do that now.

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    • Thanks.

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    • You're welcome and I'm done.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • I'm still not seeing how Abstract Existence is legitimate.

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    • So, concept manip got accepted?

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    • Tony di bugalu wrote: So, concept manip got accepted?

      Not exactly. This is not about hearts but Kingdom Hearts.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I'm still not seeing how Abstract Existence is legitimate.

      Could you explain what is missing?

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    • "Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars." (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Abstract_Existence)

      Hearts are of a non-physical nature and the essence of whatever has them which is in this case everything. Essences can be viewed as of an abstract nature regardless of whether or not they suffice the standards for concepts this wiki uses. Kingdom Hearts is the heart of all worlds. Is there still something missing for Abstract Existence?

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    • Again, they do not embody entire concepts on an all-encompassing or at least universal scale. They do not qualify.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Again, they do not embody entire concepts on an all-encompassing or at least universal scale. They do not qualify.

      I wasn't arguing for hearts to be concepts and I already know the things you wrote there. These were arguments in favor for Kingdom Hearts having Abstract Existence.

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    • Okay. I am uncertain though. More staff input would be appreciated.

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    • That is what the summary further up above and me contacting some staff members is for.

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    • Yes.

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    • Okay.

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    • Commenting here since this isn't going anywhere. Kingdom Hearts is the culmination of all hearts in existence on a universal scale, everything in existence has a heart. If that's suddenly not enough, Kingdom Hearts is constantly referred to as light itself do to being made up of all hearts.

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    • @TheSpeedster96

      Thanks for your input.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I'm still not seeing how Abstract Existence is legitimate.

      Same.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I'm still not seeing how Abstract Existence is legitimate.

      Same.

      Just writing that without writing why barely tells me anything.

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    • @Matt Give an actual refute. I literally just explained why the True Kingdom Hearts is abstract since it wasn't being explained well.

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    • PlozAlcachaz wrote:

      Elizhaa wrote:

      Explain why it's context dependent please, I'm just curious.

      It is dependent on evidence; we never gave Nonexistent Physiology to a characters just because they are made of some form of darkness.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I'm still not seeing how Abstract Existence is legitimate.
      Same.

      I will say I feel the same.

      Based on the wiki's Conceptual Manipulation page, hearts would be Non-Qualifying Concepts so they are abstract; so, Kingdom Hearts is made of hearts which are Non-Qualifying Concepts, I don't see why Kingdom Heart would be asbtract.

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    • @Elizhaa

      This is not dependent on hearts qualifying as concepts. Kingdom Hearts is the heart of all worlds which makes it of an universal scope. With worlds existing in the Realm of Darkness, the Realm of Sleep and the Datascape it would even go beyond being of an universal scope.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts (World)

      Kingdom Hearts is the collective heart of the World: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/538624028831907850/623252344779309071/unknown.png.

      Kingdom Hearts is formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds: https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort.27s_Report_III.

      Every existence has a heart and the collection of all kinds of hearts results in Kingdom Hearts: https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt.

      "The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such. A Kingdom Hearts is considered to be an aggregation of the originally invisible "proofs of life" known as hearts.": https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS


      Conceptual Manipulation for X-Blade and Keyblade

      The X-Blade can be used to control Kingdom Hearts which is why Xehanort wanted it in the first place.

      This video at 8:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMBFFH3aPw

      The Guardians of Light were busy keeping Kingdom Hearts shut due to it being a bigger threat than Xehanort.

      This video at 12:13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vozdC4HlFs.

      Sora and the others close Kingdom Hearts after they defeated Xehanort.


      Elizhaa suggested the possibility of the instance of the Guardians of Light affecting Kingdom Hearts being a case of Non-Physical Interaction but this isn't the case since they weren't affecting Kingdom Hearts in a physical manner.

      TriforcePower1 wrote that Kingdom Hearts would have Incorporeality due to being made of hearts but he didn't give me an answer after I posted in response the link about Kingdom Hearts being formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds.


      Is that enough for a summary or did I miss something?

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    • I am just using the scan and statement that you mentioned here. I am still a bit iffy.

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    • @Elizhaa

      Do I understand you right in the sense that your comment is based on the scan and statement? What exactly is iffy?

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    • I'll give better statements. It's stated here all hearts that make up existence come together to create Kingdom Hearts. Nomura states that everything that makes up a world, from the oceans to trees make up the heart of a single world, where all worlds that have hearts contribute to Kingdom hearts:

      "I - In the Kingdom Hearts (hereon KH) series so far, two kinds of "Kingdom Hearts" have appeared, the "heart of worlds" and the "heart of people". Can you please explain their makeup?"

      "I think of "all life has heart" as the most basic premise of KH. The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such. The heart of people, as it is called, was the collected hearts of the humans and animals and such that lived in those worlds. A Kingdom Hearts is considered to be an aggregation of the originally invisible "proofs of life" known as hearts."

      KH3 further backs this up about Kingdom Hearts, along with the Ansem and Xehanort Reports, and another statement from Nomura

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    • I don't think that the idea that "Everything that exists possesses a Heart" is enough to qualify as abstract existence. That basically just sounds more like theologies similar to the likes of Shintoism; in which it's believed that rocks and trees have souls. Hearts could be intangible or Non-corporeal depending on context, but not seeing Abstract existence.

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    • That's a poor analogy, and wouldn't even debunk what I said. If a heart defines the very fundamentals of an object, the essence, all things in existence being defined by an individual heart that come to form an abstraction; Kingdom Hearts. No, I'm not pushing hearts being abstract, that point was dropped way before I came to the thread, it'd only be Kingdom Hearts. If that's not enough, Kingdom Hearts is constantly referred to as being the concept of light, especially from Xehanort, and so far no one in this thread has disagreed with light and darkness being abstract.

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    • That's still not enough. There are plenty of verses that mentioning some "Substance" as defining the existence of every character, but that doesn't make stuff like Ether or Psynergy abstract concepts. And Elizhaa said it as well, that those are not qualifying concepts.

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    • On a related note, should we remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon for the same reasons? Just replace Heart with Star Seed and it's the same concept.

      I have no regrets for those choice of words.

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    • You literally just missed what I said. They aren't souls, they aren't a substance of energy, without it you're non-existent. Executor was explaining that this type of thing would be abstract if the heart of all things was universal in scale, which everybody was fine with up until now.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: That's still not enough. There are plenty of verses that mentioning some "Substance" as defining the existence of every character, but that doesn't make stuff like Ether or Psynergy abstract concepts. And Elizhaa said it as well, that those are not qualifying concepts.

      The only reason hearts aren't accepted as concepts is that they aren't universal in scale. Kingdom Hearts is made up of hearts and is quite undoubtedly universal in scale and beyond. You would need another reason for Kingdom Hearts not to qualify.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      On a related note, should we remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon for the same reasons? Just replace Heart with Star Seed and it's the same concept.

      That seems like a good point.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:

      On a related note, should we remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon for the same reasons? Just replace Heart with Star Seed and it's the same concept.

      That seems like a good point.

      That would need a separate thread since it doesn't have anything to do with what we are actually discussing here.

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    • True enough.

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    • Any further arguments against Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts?

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    • Bump.

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    • I would appreciate some input here.

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    • I mean this seems like a straight forward downgrade from Mid-Godly to questionably combat applicable type 8 to me.

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    • Okay. What do the staff members think?

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    • Blackcurrant91 wrote: I mean this seems like a straight forward downgrade from Mid-Godly to questionably combat applicable type 8 to me.

      I'm pretty sure that we have yet to actually discuss the potency of the Regeneration of Heartless. Currently I'd like to discuss Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts and the resulting Conceptual Manipulation for the X-Blade and the Keyblade.

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    • Bump.

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    • No. Many people have discussed how their Mid-Godly is questionable along with conceptual type 8.

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    • We don't have a conceptual type 8.

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    • Blackcurrant91 wrote: No. Many people have discussed how their Mid-Godly is questionable along with conceptual type 8.

      Regeneration was discussed further up above and then the topic shifted. I don't think that we have reached a conclusion regarding that yet so it is still up to debate.

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    • So what is the staff consensus here, and is somebody willing to create a revision thread to remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon?

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    • Antvasima wrote: So what is the staff consnesus here, and is somebody willing to create a revision thread to remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon?

      There is no consensus yet as far as I can tell. I would be willing to create the thread for Sailor Moon but I only know the anime series and it's been quite a while since I watched that.

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    • Okay. Thanks anyway.

      Would you be willing to handle it Cal?

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    • @Antvasima

      You're welcome.

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    • Overall, it seems the arguments have been going in circles for a while and it's not easy to tell if anything has been actually accepted or denied with the current stuff, so far.

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    • What do the staff members think?

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    • Antvasima wrote: What do the staff members think?

      I'm still waiting for responses.

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    • Okay.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      So what is the staff consensus here, and is somebody willing to create a revision thread to remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon?

      What does Sailor Moon have to do with Kingdom Hearts?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      On a related note, should we remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon for the same reasons? Just replace Heart with Star Seed and it's the same concept.

      I have no regrets for those choice of words.

      This

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    • Sera EX wrote:

      Antvasima wrote:

      So what is the staff consensus here, and is somebody willing to create a revision thread to remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon?

      What does Sailor Moon have to do with Kingdom Hearts?

      Nothing but someone mentioned the topic and there is going to be a revision thread for Sailor Moon because of that.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:
      On a related note, should we remove conceptual manipulation from Sailor Moon for the same reasons? Just replace Heart with Star Seed and it's the same concept.

      I have no regrets for those choice of words.

      This

      What do you mean?

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    • Cal originally brought up the topic. That is all.

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    • Oh, okay. I was just wondering because it’s been awhile since I looked at this thread and it seemed random.

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    • No problem.

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    • Okay, I guess it would be best to start over as the discussion got derailed into a site-wide revision and even that turned to be a waste of time overall.

      In other words, can the staff members please summarize once more their thoughts on everything that's being suggested at the OP?

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    • I would also appreciate help with this.

      Also, can you link to the site-wide revision thread that derived from this discussion?

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    • Thank you for refreshing my memory.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts (World)

      Kingdom Hearts is the collective heart of the World: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/538624028831907850/623252344779309071/unknown.png.

      Kingdom Hearts is formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds: https://www.khwiki.com/Xehanort%27s_Report#Xehanort.27s_Report_III.

      Every existence has a heart and the collection of all kinds of hearts results in Kingdom Hearts: https://imgur.com/a/uajMYOt.

      "The heart of worlds was a great heart that gathered everything that formed those worlds: the natural things such as the trees in the forests, the oceans and rivers, the flowers and such. A Kingdom Hearts is considered to be an aggregation of the originally invisible "proofs of life" known as hearts.": https://www.khwiki.com/Director%27s_Secret_Report_XIII#Part_1_-_ABOUT_THE_WORLD_OF_KINGDOM_HEARTS


      Conceptual Manipulation for X-Blade and Keyblade

      The X-Blade can be used to control Kingdom Hearts which is why Xehanort wanted it in the first place.

      This video at 8:19: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvMBFFH3aPw

      The Guardians of Light were busy keeping Kingdom Hearts shut due to it being a bigger threat than Xehanort.

      This video at 12:13: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vozdC4HlFs.

      Sora and the others close Kingdom Hearts after they defeated Xehanort.


      Elizhaa suggested the possibility of the instance of the Guardians of Light affecting Kingdom Hearts being a case of Non-Physical Interaction but this isn't the case since they weren't affecting Kingdom Hearts in a physical manner.

      TriforcePower1 wrote that Kingdom Hearts would have Incorporeality due to being made of hearts but he didn't give me an answer after I posted in response the link about Kingdom Hearts being formed by gathering the hearts of all worlds.


      Is that enough for a summary or did I miss something?

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    • I am not able to properly help you out with this. You should ask all of the staff members listed in the Kingdom Hearts verse page.

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    • Okay.

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    • Thanks.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • I've contacted the staff members.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Okay, I guess it would be best to start over as the discussion got derailed into a site-wide revision and even that turned to be a waste of time overall.

      In other words, can the staff members please summarize once more their thoughts on everything that's being suggested at the OP?

      @All staff members that have given input, quoting this as it can easily get missed otherwise.

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    • I'd really like there to be more input.

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    • It might be best to start a new thread about this with an easy to understand summary of the discussion so far in the beginning, and to then invite all of the staff members who took part in the previous one.

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    • Should I make a new thread about Abstract Existence for Kingdom Hearts and the resulting Conceptual Manipulation for the Keyblade and the X-Blade?

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    • If that is what has been discussed above, sure.

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    • Okay.

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    • I've made the thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4092937. Any suggestions to improving the OP?

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    • Well, some elaboration regarding what we have discussed here might be a good idea.

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    • Like hearts being essences and not concepts and as what that would qualify?

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    • I suppose, but do not remember well. Is somebody else willing to help out here as well?

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    • I've added the information about what hearts are and the argument against them being concepts in the OP of my thread. Is that good enough?

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    • I've contacted all of the staff members who participated in this thread and linked them the new thread that I have made.

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    • Does someone still have something they want to discuss in this thread?

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Bobsican wrote:
      Okay, I guess it would be best to start over as the discussion got derailed into a site-wide revision and even that turned to be a waste of time overall.

      In other words, can the staff members please summarize once more their thoughts on everything that's being suggested at the OP?

      @All staff members that have given input, quoting this as it can easily get missed otherwise.

      As said before, any staff members, please reword once more your thoughts on the CRT.

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    • It seems like we have problems finding knowledgeable staff to help out with Kingdom Hearts, and might have to postpone further additions to the franchise because of it.

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    • It doesn't seem like as if anyone still has something to write in this thread if nobody is answering. Could someone tell me if the OP of my thread is good enough as it is right now or if it still needs some improvement?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      It seems like we have problems finding knowledgeable staff to help out with Kingdom Hearts, and might have to postpone further additions to the franchise because of it.

      Considering the forum shutdown is coming soon... I'll give it one more week or so, if by then this doesn't go anywhere, it should be closed.

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