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  • AKM sama
    AKM sama closed this thread because:
    14:18, February 26, 2020
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!deathballboi
    Freeza will blow up this thread in 500 replies or less.

    Previous Thread

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    • Kay

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    • cursed

      NWhDNIoViagsq19G ugfEI d-5B1zjX-gkcdQZTon54
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    • Stone, my boy, you have to link the previous thread in this one

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    • Done

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    • The more I think about it the more I would have liked Cell in the ToP.

      His dialogues with 17, 18 and Gohan could have been gold.

      It surprised me that only U7 brought a warrior from their afterlife btw.

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    • To be fair, the only other universe that would have Dragon Balls is Universe 6. All of the other mortals in the ToP would have no experience or knowledge of the Afterlife or most of the warriors there.

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    • Frieza wasnt brought back by dragon balls my dood. There are other methods.

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    • It would have been hilarious if Universe 7 brought, Cell, Buu, Broly, and Moro.

      Throw Broly and Cell in the TC for 1 day, have Moro drain everyone's power and add it to his teammate right off the bat, have Buu heal anyone who get injured or tired.

      Universe 7 would have won the ToP in the first 5 min lmao.

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    • Jiren would have blitz punted Moro though, But arguably Broly could have done what Goku did or have taken care of Anilaza by himself.

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    • Jiren the arrogant who allowed Goku to power up the point Jiren himself couldn't take him out anymore, sure he will.

      Goku and Vegeta didn't realize their power were being sucked off until it was too late, not to mention Moro could potentially sucks off everyone's energy and add to his teammate to hold off Jiren if he decided to go full power right off the bat.

      There's also the option of letting Broly deal with Jiren for sometime, assuming he can control his power of course.

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    • U7's dream team (no specific order):

      1. Goku

      2. Vegeta

      3. Frieza

      4. Broly

      5. Moro

      6. Buu

      7. Cell

      8. Gohan

      9. 17

      10. Piccolo

      Though that guy from the manga who can copy people's powers by touching their neck could replace Piccolo.

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    • I would put Future Trunks on my team. Buu is a must with his body and healing skills.

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    • Replace 17 with Future Trunks and Piccolo with 7-3. Ultimate team will be:

      1-Goku

      2-Vegeta

      3-Frieza

      4-Cell

      5-Buu

      6-Broly

      7-Moro

      8-Future trunks

      9-Seven three

      1-Gohan.

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    • Most important players will be Moro and Buu due to their haxx and how much support they can give the team.

      The 5 Saiyans will be the heavy hitters.

      Seven-three could do all type of tricks so he will be jack of all trades.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Jiren the arrogant who allowed Goku to power up the point Jiren himself couldn't take him out anymore, sure he will.

      Goku and Vegeta didn't realize their power were being sucked off until it was too late, not to mention Moro could potentially sucks off everyone's energy and add to his teammate to hold off Jiren if he decided to go full power right off the bat.

      There's also the option of letting Broly deal with Jiren for sometime, assuming he can control his power of course.

      The same Jiren who instagib Kale, yes.

      That's just Toyotaro being an idiot, it's stupid for them to not notice it and Moro wasn't being stealthy about it.

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    • Jiren didn't even ring out Kale, he just left her there for no reason only for her to ring out half of his teammate few min later lol.

      Jiren goes brain dead whenever he fight a sayian tbh. He ringed out bot Hit and Majikayo without giving them a chance to do anything but he let Goku roam around despite being the biggest threat to him. Same goes for Vegeta.

      Doesn't change the fact that Moro can get away with it unnoticed for sometime

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Jiren didn't even ring out Kale, he just left her there for no reason only for her to ring out half of his teammate few min later lol.

      Jiren goes brain dead whenever he fight a sayian tbh. He ringed out bot Hit and Majikayo without giving them a chance to do anything but he let Goku roam around despite being the biggest threat to him. Same goes for Vegeta.

      Doesn't change the fact that Moro can get away with it unnoticed for sometime

      He still stopped her rampage when he needed to without hesitation or playing around.

      Vegeta was never a threat at any point to Jiren and Goku was only a threat in UI but yeah, it's clearly just for the plot that he didn't ring them out unlike Hit and Majikayo.

      That actualy change it because once again, it only went unnoticed because Goku and Vegeta somehow didn't think getting weaker super fast was weird, it's a case of characters being idiots because Toyotaro can't do plot rather than Moro being stealthy.

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    • That's my point tho, him not ringing out the thread is bad. You are also acting like Moro will be on his own and completely exposed to Jiren without anyone protecting him. Jiren was holding back his power even later into his final fight with UIO Goku.

      He also didn't ring out Frieza either and decided to let Toppo take the risk of fighting Vegeta despite him being able to take out all of universe 7 members by himself that at that point. It will be very out of character for him to go for full power one shot right off the bat.

      Moro managed to beat Goku and Vegeta using galactic prison fodders. I am confident he could buff up Goku and and Vegeta's power using the power of everyone in the ring.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote: Replace 17 with Future Trunks and Piccolo with 7-3. Ultimate team will be:

      Oh, didnt include Future Trunks because he is from another timeline.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      That's my point tho, him not ringing out the thread is bad. You are also acting like Moro will be on his own and completely exposed to Jiren without anyone protecting him. Jiren was holding back his power even later into his final fight with UIO Goku.

      He also didn't ring out Frieza either and decided to let Toppo take the risk of fighting Vegeta despite him being able to take out all of universe 7 members by himself that at that point. It will be very out of character for him to go for full power one shot right off the bat.

      Moro managed to beat Goku and Vegeta using galactic prison fodders. I am confident he could buff up Goku and and Vegeta's power using the power of everyone in the ring.

      They all were on their own during the TOP, litteraly the first thing U7 does is split up.

      He doesn't need to go full power, what took out Kale in the anime would take out Moro too.

      Fodders that Yamcha also managed to take out a few chapters later despite Moro having MORE energy at that point, once again, Toyotaro can't do plot.

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    • So you are assuming Moro will absolutely tells them nothing about his abillty and just begin using his hax at the worst time possible?

      Jiren didn't take out Kale he just putted her down temporarily and allowed her to take out half of his teammate and stood by watching Goku grow stronger and stronger while acting all smug about it.

      What makes you think Moro would allow his minions to keep all of that power?

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      So you are assuming Moro will absolutely tells them nothing about his abillty and just begin using his hax at the worst time possible?

      Jiren didn't take out Kale he just putted her down temporarily and allowed her to take out half of his teammate and stood by watching Goku grow stronger and stronger while acting all smug about it.

      What makes you think Moro would allow his minions to keep all of that power?

      No, i'm assuming that everyone will immediatly notice they are being drained like it always happened before.

      He put her out of commision the moments she went on a rampage, if she had started again, he'd have done it again, same for Moro and given how he treated those with weird ability like Maji Kayo and Hit, he'll ring him out.

      Because they are absolutly useless without it and we were told they were powered up but never told that Moro stopped powering them up.

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    • They have no way of knowing it's Moro tho. From what we saw Moro's drain works passively and can go unnoticed. Unless Jiren nuke the whole damn Arena he's getting sucked in.

      No reason for Moro to expose himself for Jiren. Jiren spared basically everyone by just sitting there and meditating because of the writers couldn't think of any other way for him not to solo the whole damn thing. I can see your point but Jiren's behavior is pretty inconsistent due to shitty writing.

      I don't think he has a way of knowing so many strong fighters exist on planet earth.

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    • Moro wasn't being stealthy in front of Vegeta and Goku about it and we litteraly see the energy conglomerate when he take it from a large area.

      And you think he's gonna sit there while feeling his energy beingd rained too ?

      He litteraly know that's where Goku and Vegeta live IIRC and having strong fighters or not isn't why he powered them up, he powered them up so he could be sure they could do their job while knowing they were originaly weak enough to be taken out by the likes of freaking Jaco.

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    • If Moro ever met Jiren he'd drain the hell out of him. Moro would suck Jiren dry. Yes.

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    • Cell would be so fucking OP if he trained even for a little while. He has the DNA of Frieza and Android 17 and was initially stronger than them.

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    • Give Cell Broly's DNA.

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    • If Frieza and 17 are anything to go by, Cell would be God of Destruction level by training for a month.

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    • Seriously, We have an official DB arc with a bad guy who did nothing but suck EVERYONE dry, this is truly the best timeline.

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    • What was that you guys were talking about TFS doing the Buu arc differently? 

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    • AKM sama wrote:
      What was that you guys were talking about TFS doing the Buu arc differently? 

      From what I heard they plan on doing it with 3D models so Toei can get off their back.

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    • Did they announce it somewhere? I didn't see it on youtube.

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    • You know what was a missed opportunity ? not having the narrator from the stanley parabel as the narrator in the english version of that recap episode where Goku et Vegeta talk to the narrator.

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    • A Universe 7 Dream Team:

      - Goku (for obvious reasons), 

      -Vegeta (for obvious reasons as well) 

      - Frieza (obvious reason)

      - Majin Buu (can absorb or bind fighters, can mimic moves)

      - Broly (Can pretty much deceimate everyone with LSSJ until Jiren takes off his shirt)

      - 7-3 (If 7-3 has all the abilities from the manga he stole.)

      - Future Trunks (That Plot Armor will come in handy)

      - Cell (Literally if he trained he could be the strongest non Saiyan on this team)

      - 17 (Can't leave out our Infinite Energy Blue Level MVP)

      ...................................

      - Ginyu (Change on Jiren would assure victory for the team even if Ginyu can't use his powers)

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    • About DBZA, it was actually announced to be cancelled today, they ain't gonna do Season 4.

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    • F

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    • BlastX wrote:
      About DBZA, it was actually announced to be cancelled today, they ain't gonna do Season 4.

      Source? Link?

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    • Ginyu is the true MVP.

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    • Well... I can understand. Well, back to the Children's Card Games.

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    • I think we've more or less assumed, due to that corraborating evidence and the sheer power boost UI gave him, that normal Goku became stronger as a byproduct of achieveing that state. There's also the very large evidence of base Goku keeping up with and fighting SS2 Caulifla post-UIO, even doing damage, when previously it was shown their SS2 forms were comparable; and a more flimsy statement, from when Goku stands back up to help Freeza and 17 against Jiren at the end of the tournament, yet another comment about them all having broken their limits was made by Goku himself to Freeza.   

      Again, this does not address why Ultra Instinct itself would be strong, if the "breaking his limits" applies in a general sense to his power increase, why would a UI Omen be such dramatically stronger from otherwise? It is itself only a technique that provides the capacity for autonomous movements. And his performance between the first and 2nd time fighting Caulfia itself, doesn't really suggest a large increase, he gained an advantage, but not overwhelmingly so, and we know this series has shown 1.1-1.3x advantages to yield enormous advantages in a fight. It isn't as though he won in a lesser form, he just performed better in the SAME form. 

       Goku became stronger from learning UIS, the same way he became stronger and imprinted the power of SSG when he first used it.  

      There's not really any evidence for that. Nothing suggests that he had adapted/absorbed the power the way that he did with SSG, especially given how explicit they were about it with SSG. 

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    • One word: Zenkai

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    • KLOL506 wrote:
      One word: Zenkai

      Well, exactly. Which is why I find it so strange that the terminology used is "post UIS1" or "Post UIS2" and then even attempt to project how much stronger he got by the 3rd omen and actual UI without actually having seen him fight again in the anime aside from against Vegeta. Or at least, if not a literal zenkai, the Saiyan hax of growing as you fight against someone stronger/get pushed to their limits and beyond it. Unfortunately I don't think there is really many explicit things that show his growth, it's more so implicit, and I wish it was more clear. 

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    • Post-UIS1, his exhausted SSB could briefly keep up and clash with SS Kefla, with his KK Blue hurting her. SS Kefla's energy is equal to the Spirit Bomb, which should be stronger than Pre-UIS1 KKX20 Blue.

      Post-UIS2 Blue surpasses UIS1, because SSB Goku pushed Jiren harder than anything else in the tournament up to that point.

      UIS3 and UI should have enabled a further boost, but there is little indication of how this boost would be.

      It's also worth noting that Goku was constantly exhausted since he used UIS1, meaning we only ever saw his true potential after the ToP, in the Broly film. Seeing as physical exhaustion causes loss of power.

      Post-UIS2 Blue > UIS1 > Spirit Bomb > Post-UIS1 Blue >/= Pre-UIS KKX20 Blue >> Pre-UIS Blue

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    • IDK if this has been shared but Dragon Ball Z Abridged will not be continued into the Buu Saga and therefore is ending after the Cell Saga according to Scott "Kaiser" on Patreon.

      https://www.patreon.com/posts/end-of-dbza-33758684 Here is his statement

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    • Yeah, we know.

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    • Gotta agree with Scott in that post, honestly. Cell Saga was always the best place to end the series. It had realized Toriyama's goal of making Gohan the hero, it was, well, perfect.

      And looking at the Buu Saga, it is not written in a way that invites a parody. Buu at his worst has zero personality to work with, at his best is just pink Perfect Cell in a Turtle Hermit gi...

      I'm just glad they said they're continuing with the DragonShortZ at all. Maybe, maybe in the future when their company is more financially stable a la RoosterTeeth, they'll be able to use the ShortZ style (or a much better version of it; I like how it is now, but it could use a spot of polish in places).

      Regardless, I'm sickened to see so many comments ragging on them about this. This was inevitable, in one way or another. Ep. 60 was a perfect end--literally.

      Sort of off-topic, though?

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    • Making Gohan the hero wasn't a goal, it was an idea that he dropped the moment he actualy put it in practice and making a character the hero is pointless if you end the franchise at the same time, the Cell saga wasn't a perfect ending and was never planned as one at all.

      The view that Cell is better than Buu is only prevalent in the USA it seems given that Buu is vastly more popular in japan and Cell really has no common point with Buu.

      People are raging because they litteraly promised season 4 and didn't deliver, i personaly don't care and sure there are reason but people being pissed off when you break a promise is normal.

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    • I personally dislike the Android saga.

      Besides the Cell vs Gohan fight, it was pretty boring and dragged out.

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    • I honestly agree. I like the exploration of the Super Saiyan form, and mastering its full potential but everything else is among some of the lowest points of Z, for me.

      Android 19 and 20 aren't interesting, and were poorly thought out, 16, 17 and 18 have zero aggression or proactiveness, their entire goal is to just kill Goku and the worry that they have the 'potential' to be bad. Cell was overall good, but Semi-Perfect is an utter joke and the Cell Games had zero reason to exist.

      It also ties into other reasons, like how Trunks being the son of Bulma and Vegeta is ridiculous nonsense, King Cold and Frieza being curbstomped just retroactively makes Namek look pathetic to hype up what are, ultimately, underwhelming villains until Cell arrives and also establishes that multiple people can achieve Super Saiyan.

      I would even say the Android saga is where the cast became truly useless. Even against Frieza, I could see the value of Krillin, Gohan and Dende and feel like they stood a chance by working together. In the Android saga? The only person to rival the Saiyans is Piccolo, and he is an utter weakling compared to Ascended Vegeta, who is an utter weakling compared to MSS Goku.

      Not to mention, every living character with a hint of Saiyan DNA has Super Saiyan by the end of the arc.

      I don't know, it just felt like the Android saga is the arc responsible for heavily narrowing Dragon Ball's world down to 'Saiyans and Earth' after we saw an expansive and interesting universe of possibiilities in the Namek saga.

      The Buu saga further discouraged this, everything came to Earth rather than Earth having to seek it (directly contrasting with Goku seeking things out in early Dragon Ball, Goku seeking things out in Otherworld and the Z-Fighters seeking out Namek).

      Beerus opened up a huge can of worms for the world, and while it's heavily flawed, I appreciate how the Universe 6 tournament firmly establishes there are other fighters from other universes capable of challenging Goku and co but the issue still runs that all of the threats in the DBS anime came to Earth (Beerus, Frieza, Black) due to Goku and all of the challenges are due to Goku's actions (Universe 6, Tournament of Power) rather than something that he discovered in his journey.

      That's why, while I criticise Toyotaro and the Moro arc, I really appreciate how Moro has no actual relation to the Z-Fighters or Earth. His entire story and backstory has nothing to do with them, or the Saiyans, and has helped flesh out the Dragon World greatly. I hope this style of writing and worldbuilding remains a constant for Toyotaro's future sagas.

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    • Trunks being the son of Bulma and Vegeta the most ridiculous twist in dragon ball I would say.

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      • has child with man responsible for her boyfriend's murder. and effectively his murderer
      • this is okay because he OOCly, supposedly, cheated on her

      I mean I know the point is that the Z-Fighters are, or were, all complete bastards at some point but yeesh, there's a limit y'know?

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote: Post-UIS1, his exhausted SSB could briefly keep up and clash with SS Kefla, with his KK Blue hurting her. SS Kefla's energy is equal to the Spirit Bomb, which should be stronger than Pre-UIS1 KKX20 Blue.

      Post-UIS2 Blue surpasses UIS1, because SSB Goku pushed Jiren harder than anything else in the tournament up to that point.

      UIS3 and UI should have enabled a further boost, but there is little indication of how this boost would be.

      It's also worth noting that Goku was constantly exhausted since he used UIS1, meaning we only ever saw his true potential after the ToP, in the Broly film. Seeing as physical exhaustion causes loss of power.

      Post-UIS2 Blue > UIS1 > Spirit Bomb > Post-UIS1 Blue >/= Pre-UIS KKX20 Blue >> Pre-UIS Blue

      You're just kind of explaining THAT he is stronger but not at all WHY that would make him stronger, and ignoring previous comments.

      Again, if that is so, why is UI strong? Why would it make Goku stronger? Why isnt it that when he triggers UI, it is the same strength as SSB? After all, UI itself is simply the ability to move autonomously. Why did Vegeta get stronger even though he never achieved any UI Omens?

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      Because they both 'broke their limits'. That's the only explanation provided in-universe.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Trunks being the son of Bulma and Vegeta the most ridiculous twist in dragon ball I would say.

      Oh boy that was a HUGE twist. I never would've expected that in my wildest dreams at that age when I first saw it.

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    • To be fair, Bulma is also an utter bitch so she hooking up with Vegeta is something I can see.

      Also, the cast was like always useless, by the time of the Red Ribbon Arc Goku practically did everything himself and assblasted the whole army, in the saiyan saga he clowned Nappa who clowned the Rest Of the Dragon Team and he still nearly killed himself in order to stand a chance against Vegeta.

      The only time the rest of the Dragon Team helps is in support role or sparring partners to make the ones that can actually do something be able to save them.

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    • The Vegeta fight was a team effort though, pretty much the only true team effort victory in canon IMO, the other one being Jiren.

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    • I don't care if they are actually effective. Them actually working at a team, and managing to hold up is what I like to see.

      Did the fighters on Namek contribute to Frieza's defeat? Not for the most part, Goku did the bulk. Did they fight on Namek using their skill, teamwork and strategies, managing to hold up against Frieza's various forms and giving Goku the time to heal? Yes. And that's exactly what I like to see.

      The only instance of this, that I can think of, after the Namek saga is Vegeta getting his ass kicked while Goku charged up a Spirit Bomb, and Hercule demanded Earth to lend all their energy. That technically counts as teamwork, but it doesn't particularly feel organic or well-written.

      Much of early Dragon Ball was about Goku's direct rivalries with other people, his adventures on Earth and maturing into a man and both the Saiyan Saga and Namek Saga focused on how the allies he made over the years, worked together to defend themselves and their people.

      The Android Saga and Buu Saga did offer horror elements to Dragon Ball, but these elements haven't been used since then, and weren't effectively meshed with the ideas of teamwork and adventure presented in DB and Z.

      Super stumbled heavily early on, but as time went on it started to recapture the elements of teamwork and adventure, and I feel the Moro arc displays excellent potential for future sagas by fully tapping into what really made Dragon Ball great.

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    • I'm just saying, the whole team thing was only really present for some part of the saiyan saga (in which it succeed) and namek saga (in which it failed) and only returned in the TOP, It wasn't present for most of the franchise so you can't really blame the android saga and the Buu saga for that.

      I like the Buu saga because it brough back the fantasy element and capitalised on the whole god thing that was always in the background.

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    • Dragomer wrote: The Vegeta fight was a team effort though, pretty much the only true team effort victory in canon IMO, the other one being Jiren.

      Goku had to do 90% of the job with Jiren. Shit he was much less effctive against Vegeta actually.

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    • Alright so whos stronger:

      GT Piccolo or DBZ SSJ3 Goku?

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      PFM18 wrote:
      Because they both 'broke their limits'. That's the only explanation provided in-universe.

      "broke their limits" is only used with regards to new transformations with the exception of Vegeta's fight against GoD Toppo

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    • The Saiyan Saga:

      The epitome of Dragon Ball story telling. This is how to keep Goku the main hero of the story while introducing his legacy, Gohan, and keeping the rest of the cast relevant. The saiyans were all well written as villains, though I wish we could of had more weight with Raditz, since he was the brother of Goku. Goku vs Vegeta is one of the most iconic anime fights to this date. Overall Awesome Arc.

      The Frieza Saga: 

      Probably when the stakes were highest in the DB Franchise. This part of the story is packed with action and we watch major character development between the likes of Gohan, Piccolo and Vegeta. The Ginyu force was a fun time and Frieza is one of the greatest anime villains to date. The Super Saiyan transformation, do I need to say more? Oh yeah Goku vs Frieza is an amazing match between good and evil. This fight is the most Iconic fight in Dragon Ball and probably all of Shounen. Lot of inspiration for many future animes came from this arc. Overall Perfection. 

      Speaking of Perfection, 

      The Cell Saga:

      The Cell Saga was good but it started to get confusing with the introduction of SSJ Grades and Time Travel's mechanics. Gohan was the center focus of this arc in many ways as it seemed both Goku and Vegeta had reached a barrier in their quest for power. He was very well written in this arc and Cell was an okay villain I liked his concept and his abilities of being this Bio Weapon of the Red Ribbon Army but he wasn't as complex as Frieza.This arc didn't wow me like the Frieza Saga but I do like some of the moments like, Vegeta's SSJ form, Trunks's introduction, Goku even showing off SSJ for the first time to the Androids, Tien's Neo Tribeam and Goku vs Cell etc. Of course we can't forget SSJ2 Gohan that was awesome. Overall that was a good arc but not as good as the Frieza Saga. 

      Ok Buu,

      I actually like this arc but it needs some tough love. Buu was a fun character to watch, he can go from an innocent child, to devilishly cunning to an extreme monster of chaos I LOVE THAT. Goku SSJ2 is my favorite SSJ design to this date, though I am getting attached to SSJG a lot more since the Broly movie, and SSJ3 was so badass. I love the Fusions, Majin Vegeta's sacrifice, Gohan reaching his pinnacle and Spirit Bomb finale. I did however have things I hated about this arc, I hated the tournament, the power of the kaioshin makes no sense, Gohan being the strongest yet jobbing throughout the arc and what the heck was Piccolo doing? The stakes weren't high at all at this point because if Buu blew up the Earth, they just have the Namekians. 

      So a nice arc overall but I fricken love Goku vs Kid Buu so I'll always go back for that. 

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    • How did Piccolo and Gohan get character development in the Namek arc?

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    • Dragomer wrote:
      Making Gohan the hero wasn't a goal, it was an idea that he dropped the moment he actualy put it in practice and making a character the hero is pointless if you end the franchise at the same time, the Cell saga wasn't a perfect ending and was never planned as one at all.

      The view that Cell is better than Buu is only prevalent in the USA it seems given that Buu is vastly more popular in japan and Cell really has no common point with Buu.

      People are raging because they litteraly promised season 4 and didn't deliver, i personaly don't care and sure there are reason but people being pissed off when you break a promise is normal.

      It literally was a goal of Toriyama's set up as early as the Saiyan Saga. It's only the constant interference and meddling of his editor (and the push for more DB content after the success of the anime) that Toriyama went on to write the Buu Saga, where again, he tried to set Gohan up as the hero through Supreme Kai's training. No idea where you got that the Cell Saga was never planned as an ending, because it more or less was on Toriyama's part. Goku was dead, Gohan was set up to be the Earth's protector with a power greater than his father's, the whole nine yards.

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    • A Stoned Orc wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:
      Making Gohan the hero wasn't a goal, it was an idea that he dropped the moment he actualy put it in practice and making a character the hero is pointless if you end the franchise at the same time, the Cell saga wasn't a perfect ending and was never planned as one at all.

      The view that Cell is better than Buu is only prevalent in the USA it seems given that Buu is vastly more popular in japan and Cell really has no common point with Buu.

      People are raging because they litteraly promised season 4 and didn't deliver, i personaly don't care and sure there are reason but people being pissed off when you break a promise is normal.

      It literally was a goal of Toriyama's set up as early as the Saiyan Saga. It's only the constant interference and meddling of his editor (and the push for more DB content after the success of the anime) that Toriyama went on to write the Buu Saga, where again, he tried to set Gohan up as the hero through Supreme Kai's training. No idea where you got that the Cell Saga was never planned as an ending, because it more or less was on Toriyama's part. Goku was dead, Gohan was set up to be the Earth's protector with a power greater than his father's, the whole nine yards.

      No, it wasn't a goal, nothing ever said that, even in the android saga, Gohan is mostly in the background until the Cell fight.

      There was no meddling nor interference, the cell saga was NEVER planned to be the end of dragon ball, that's a myth.

      Goku was dead after the radditz fight too, it mean nothing.

      Yes and instaling a new main character isn't what you do to end a serie, which is why the buu saga started with Gohan still being the MC, because you change MC to make a new era, not to end it.

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    • I'm 99% sure "Toriyama wanted to end it at X" is a myth in general.

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    • Well, I'd like to debate about multipliers of the official forms. Not to upgrade the characters or anything, just for fun.



      Here's my point of view:



      First, we have the confirmation that Super Saiyan is a 50x multiplier, while showcasing an image of the Early Super Saiyan that Goku used to fight Freeza. (Yes, FrEeza.). As there's not only the confirmation from the Guide, but from the Power Levels too (Goku went from 3 Million to 150 Million, just like the Kaio-ken made him go to 3 Million to 60 Million), we can be sure of it. Pretty sure I don't have to link an image for this, as it is common knowledge at this point



      Super Saiyan: 50x




      Then, we have the grades. Second Grade's multiplier is higher than 50x, obviously, as SP Cell, who was SURE he could defeat Vegeta fairly easily , got stomped by 2nd Grade. Although we don't really have an specific number, I'd estimate to be 100x. Since you need to be at least two times stronger than someone to negate their attacks , and if i recall correctly, ASSJ Vegeta quite literally negated Cell's Galick Gun with his aura alone. Assuming SP Cell was as strong as Regular SSJ Vegeta, Vegeta would need to be twice as strong to negate his attack, if not more (since a Ki Blast is usually far stronger than its user). 

      I also had a Scan about Trunks holding Freeza's Supernova stating the same thing, but not necessarily involving Ki, but I lost it, so you'll have to trust me on this one if you don't quite consider the scan about the Ki Barrier valid.



      Ascended Super Saiyan: At least 100x




      Then we have Ultra Super Saiyan, aka Third Grade. And hey, we don't need to go too far for this one. First off, the fact he stood up against Perfect Cell in raw power should tell you that it is multiple times stronger than Second Grade, and then again, we have the El Legendario Manga which confirms that Third Grade gives Trunks 10x more power . We can't tell if it's 10x more than Second Grade, or than Regular SSJ. I'd assume it's based off Regular SSJ.






      Third Grade: 500x



      Now, for Full-Power Super Saiyan, or Mastered Super Saiyan. This is a sensitive topic, and I assume most people here think MSSJ is just as strong as Regular SSJ, but even after all that, I don't think so. Not to mention the whole situation with the DBS Movie, with Broly's MSSJ being far stronger than his Regular SSJ, we also have the fact that, first, Vegeta surpassed Goku during the fight against Dr. Gero and 19, THEN entered the chamber, reached a level multiple times stronger than Regular SSJ along with Trunks. Then Goku comes out of the chamber being stronger than Vegeta, AND Trunks while being in MSSJ. We can either assume Goku got 10-15x stronger than Vegeta within the same period of training (most of said training dedicated to getting Gohan to SSJ mind you) and that MSSJ is just SSJ, ooor we can assume MSSJ is actually a Fourth Grade which is at least as strong as Third Grade (probably way stronger). I think the latter is more logical, tho. We also have, you know, El Legendario Manga confirming that MSSJ is a level Vegeta cannot achieve, and that is stronger than the other forms , nothing special. We also have a guide stating that SSJ2 is a Fifth Grade






      MSSJ: +500x



      Super Saiyan 2 is twice as strong as MSSJ, again, Common Knowledge.



      SSJ2: 1000x



      Super Saiyan Three is four times stronger than Super Saiyan Two, again, Common Knowledge.



      SSJ3: 4000x




      Results:



      SSJ: 50x

      ASSJ: 100x

      USSJ: 500x

      MSSJ: 500x

      SSJ2: 1000x

      SSJ3: 4000x




      That's my point of view about the forms in Dragon Ball Z, tell me your thoughts on it. I can also estimate the multipliers for the god forms based on those informations if anyone is interested.

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    • BlastX wrote: I'm 99% sure "Toriyama wanted to end it at X" is a myth in general.

      AFAIK, only wanting to end it on the Pilaf Saga is sourced.

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    • In the Buu saga, Toriyama was probably just making stuff up as he went on judging by his interviews. He wasn't prepared for the success brought by the Freeza and Cell arcs.

      I think Toriyama stated somewhere that working on weekly releases of Dragon Ball, mainly in the Buu saga, took its toll on him. There's also that thing about him not even knowing why Dragon Ball was popular and his other works (Blue Dragon, Kintoki, Chrono Trigger, Dr. Slump and Dragon Quest) never reaching his desired success while Dragon Ball, which he didn't even understand why it was so popular, pretty much dominated, making him work even harder without a proper preparation and tight deadlines.

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    • Toriyama made stuff up as he went for every single chapter of dragon ball and let's be honest, most author write like that, especialy in weekly format, let alone a weekly format where you can be suddenly told 'your stuff is ending in 3 chapters, good luck'.

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    • Wasn't the reason Toriyama even started Dragon Ball was because Dr Slump was so succeful his editors only allowed him to end it if he started another series right after it? And despite appearing otherwise nowadays, the Dr Slump crossover all the way back to the RR Saga was to boost Dragon Ball's sells by having Goku be with the more famous Arale.

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    • @Dragomer fair enough

      @Ionliosite that's true for the early years of Dragon Ball, but DB quickly overthrew almost every manga at the time after Z

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      Wasn't the reason Toriyama even started Dragon Ball was because Dr Slump was so succeful his editors only allowed him to end it if he started another series right after it? And despite appearing otherwise nowadays, the Dr Slump crossover all the way back to the RR Saga was to boost Dragon Ball's sells by having Goku be with the more famous Arale.

      The madlads got him to do it by promising it would be short and he could end it quickly.

      Also wasn't it almost ended at some point due to low sell before exploding thanks to the first tournament ?

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote: that's true for the early years of Dragon Ball, but DB quickly overthrew almost every manga at the time after Z

      That's indeed true, it was with stuff like Piccolo and other alien foes that the series really got an amazing traction behind it. There's also the fact the anime brought more attention to it, as usual.

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    • This is subjective but the peak of DBZ for me was the Saiyans and Namek saga. The threat was real and the stakes were high. The namek arc reveals Goku's origins and with the episode of Baradock back then it felt like Goku's character arc came full cycle after he beats Freiza.

      The Cell saga keep switching the main antagonists and before finally settling for Cell and Cell himself is only cool when he reach his perfect form. The arc drags out in most boring ways and a lot of the fight and event felt half-heared. Heck, even DBZ Kakarot drop the bridge on the Andiros saga hard and foucs more on the other 2 arcs.

      Buu saga is likely the weakest written arc with shiton of plot holes and PIS but somehow it manages to be much more entertaining than the Androds saga.

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    • The Buu saga is full of a lot of cool lore an individual moment, as well as the strong closure of Vegeta's character arc. It's just that very little contributes to the plot

      What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and  Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      "broke their limits" is only used with regards to new transformations with the exception of Vegeta's fight against GoD Toppo

      ...So you literally state that Vegeta broke his limits, increasing his overall power, but also claim that it only applies to new transformations for other characters? How does that even make sense? Hell, Caulifa was depicted as also 'breaking her limits' when Vegeta spoke about Saiyans, and that was more-or-less from her skills and power constantly growing against Goku.

      There is absolutely zero reason to believe Goku didn't grow stronger from breaking his limits, when multiple other Saiyans did that exact thing.

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    • User:GodlyCharmander, you only used one source to justify Super Saiyan Fourth Grade being more powerful than vanilla Super Saiyan, and even that's an incorrect source for your argument.

      You mentioned Broly's "MSSJ" being far more powerful than his regular Super Saiyan, but that's his Legendary Super Saiyan form. That form shares a name with Super Saiyan Fourth Grade (Super Saiyan Full Power) but they're never considered or appear to be remotely similar. It's just Type C and Type B Super Saiyan.

      Anyways, the El Manga Legendario post you shared stated that, "Although Goku manages to reach a state superior to that of Super Saiyan, he realizes that he will not be able to defeat Cell. Then, change your mind(?) and in the end get a level that Vegeta could not reach."

      - Firstly, the Fourth Grade form is being deemed superior to First Grade because it just is. However, "being superior" does not automatically mean "more powerful". It could mean better in different areas, like the conversation of energy and control of emotions, which is what makes Fourth Grade the preferred form. And, just because it's the Fourth Grade doesn't mean it's superior to the rest. It's just enhanced First Grade.

      - Secondly, "...a level that Vegeta could not reach" also does not imply that it is more powerful than the forms that Vegeta has (Second and Third Grade). It simply means that Vegeta doesn't have what it takes to achieve the Fourth Grade at the time, which he then gains in the Buu Saga. It doesn't mean it's that much stronger than he is.

      - Thirdly, Post-HTC Fourth Grade Goku being more powerful than the other Second Grades does not mean that Fourth Grade is more powerful than it. I just assumed that it was obvious Goku and Gohan became significantly more powerful than the other characters in base, which is why they can take on that level of Cell, as opposed to Vegeta and Trunks who couldn't defeat a more suppressed Cell.

      - Fourthly, under the Goku image in the El Manga Legendario scan, it reads both, (left) "Goku and Gohan train with the premise of considering the Super Saiyan state as a normal state," and (right) "Looking for the best state to face Cell without straining uselessly." These extra texts imply that Fourth Grade is just First Grade, but more refined. There are also these scans:

      https://i.imgur.com/x7iweY7.jpg

      https://pm1.narvii.com/7182/89420252765a92c785ae1a72dce4103943aef9ber1-1100-1650v2_hq.jpg

      These just further the point that Fourth Grade is simply First Grade but trained to be second-hand, so that the users could stay calm despite Super Saiyan's roots in anger, and so that they could conserve energy, remaining in the form for days on end to maximize the potential of the form. It's a perfect balance between strength, speed, and stamina, which is what Goku wanted because of the drawbacks of Third Grade. He even mentioned that First Grade has a better balance than Third Grade.

      https://pm1.narvii.com/6875/5ce31f39f4c05652642e316e97a0046d35c48091r1-1440-1314v2_hq.jpg

      Then, there's the Daizenshuu stating that Fourth Grade draws Super Saiyan to its full power, which falls in line with my statement of it maximizing the form's potential, with its full power still being x50 base. This isn't drawing out the full power of all of the Super Saiyan forms, the Daizenshuu doesn't generalize the Super Saiyan Grades like that.

      So yeah, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is just the First Grade but more stable so it can used at 100% all the time, which is the same principle used for Perfected Super Saiyan Blue from the manga. Everything else is pretty cool.

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    • "What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far"

      Jiren vs Goku, frieza and 17 had the best ending imo

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    • The Cell saga conclusion isn't all that strong, it's just Radditz 2.0, just without any teaming up, people try to overhype it because they seem to think that whole 'passing the torch' thing sound deep or something when it's not and was always a disaster when attempted.

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    • Boo arc > Cell arc imo. Better themes and more solid character arcs.

      And Saiyan arc had the best ending. Not because it ended with a “shout” like a beam struggle but because it ended with a whimper.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      "What the Android arc has is a VERY STRONG conclusion, with Cell and Gohan's final Kamehameha struggle being IMO the best ending of a battle in DB so far"

      Jiren vs Goku, frieza and 17 had the best ending imo

      Had a similar ending, but here comes a personal bias that I will explain .

      When I watched it the first time... I was Gohan's age and matched him a lot (bad temper, a bit of a recluse nerd...).

      Gohan's rage and potential were also a HUGE element that was often brought up and up again, here we finally see the logical conclusion as Gohan is literally surpassing a being made of every great warrior of his time combined. ​​​And uusally final fights in DB do end anticlimatically, so to watch a mostly equal beam struggle at the end was exciting.

      Maybe I am wrong, nad I see it with the eyes of my 11 years old self (I remember in the Italian dubbing, it was said Gohan was 11, might have been wrong, don't care)... what can I say, moved me!

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    • I will drop this quick Q&A thread for a sec.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4009129

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    • Its all about opinions.

      "Usually final fights in DB do end anticlimatically"

      Please I need some back up here.

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    • BlackeJan wrote: Alright so whos stronger:

      GT Piccolo or DBZ SSJ3 Goku?

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    • ...Definitely gotta disagree with anyone who says Cell wasn't cool until he was perfect. Imperfect Cell is underrated, but only because he's a fucking horror villain, not really a typical shonen villain. Imperfect Cell would be very much at home in an Alien-style setting, skulking around and absorbing people... I agree that Semi-Perfect Cell was god awful, though.



      But I digress.

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    • Dunno but... Imperfect Cell was suprisingly strategic, pragmatic and cunning with his plans. Perhaps, because he was outmatched in terms of power.

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    • I mean it doesn't take much strats and cunning to basicaly just eat powerless people while the heroes are not only not paying attention but actively in another conflict.

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    • You think so? I could be wrong, but I do recall Piccolo, Tenshinhan and Krillin actively looking for him, while Trunks and Gohan were investigating other stuff. When the Androids showed up at Kame House Piccolo was kinda lika "aw, crap I forgot these guys were around", IIRC.

      Maybe it was issues in the writting, but covering his tracks when the good guys could effectively sense he was emptying a city and escape right in their noses was kinda competent for the usual DBZ villian who has the advantage of overpowering the heroes  >_>

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    • Originally I thought the Cell arc is better than Buu arc but I'm having second thoughts. It's a common complaint that Goku is a giant idiot in the Buu arc and is the reason for the damage that happened. But the Cell arc is arguably worse with this because like all the Z fighters is at fault. Which is more aggravating.

      Super Buu I find more enjoyable and more scary compare to any other villain in the series. Completely unpredictable but also smart.Human Extinction scene still drops my jaw. Also this scene always worked[[1]] will

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    • Oh yeah, the human extinction moment was a massive holy crap, how incredibly nonchanlantly  Buu does it really contributes to it. I also really appreciated how they showed Mr. Satan's more human and kind hearted side, making you appreciate him a lot more especially if weren't fond of his comedic schtick in the Cell saga.

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    • Honestly, Buu Saga Goku has more justification than Cell Saga Goku. Goku's intent to fight Vegeta was due to seeing Vegeta's baggage and lack of closure, his refusal to destroy Buu was due to his belief that the warriors of Earth needed to step up in his place and him saving Hercule and Dende was, arguably, nothing more than a mistake when panicking.

      Goku's rationale for he, a dead person, not saving the Earth is far more reasonable than Goku using his own son as a mere weapon and refusing any shot at revival due to a misguided belief that he 'attracted threats', which is only true for the Red Ribbon Army, Raditz and Frieza.

      And, honestly, if Gotenks and Gohan didn't pull such stupid moves, they could have easily ended up saving the Earth and proving Goku's beliefs were well-founded, instead they just went full stupid.

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    • Nullflowerblush wrote:
      User:GodlyCharmander, you only used one source to justify Super Saiyan Fourth Grade being more powerful than vanilla Super Saiyan, and even that's an incorrect source for your argument.

      You mentioned Broly's "MSSJ" being far more powerful than his regular Super Saiyan, but that's his Legendary Super Saiyan form. That form shares a name with Super Saiyan Fourth Grade (Super Saiyan Full Power) but they're never considered or appear to be remotely similar. It's just Type C and Type B Super Saiyan.

      Anyways, the El Manga Legendario post you shared stated that, "Although Goku manages to reach a state superior to that of Super Saiyan, he realizes that he will not be able to defeat Cell. Then, change your mind(?) and in the end get a level that Vegeta could not reach."

      - Firstly, the Fourth Grade form is being deemed superior to First Grade because it just is. However, "being superior" does not automatically mean "more powerful". It could mean better in different areas, like the conversation of energy and control of emotions, which is what makes Fourth Grade the preferred form. And, just because it's the Fourth Grade doesn't mean it's superior to the rest. It's just enhanced First Grade.

      - Secondly, "...a level that Vegeta could not reach" also does not imply that it is more powerful than the forms that Vegeta has (Second and Third Grade). It simply means that Vegeta doesn't have what it takes to achieve the Fourth Grade at the time, which he then gains in the Buu Saga. It doesn't mean it's that much stronger than he is.

      - Thirdly, Post-HTC Fourth Grade Goku being more powerful than the other Second Grades does not mean that Fourth Grade is more powerful than it. I just assumed that it was obvious Goku and Gohan became significantly more powerful than the other characters in base, which is why they can take on that level of Cell, as opposed to Vegeta and Trunks who couldn't defeat a more suppressed Cell.

      - Fourthly, under the Goku image in the El Manga Legendario scan, it reads both, (left) "Goku and Gohan train with the premise of considering the Super Saiyan state as a normal state," and (right) "Looking for the best state to face Cell without straining uselessly." These extra texts imply that Fourth Grade is just First Grade, but more refined. There are also these scans:

      https://i.imgur.com/x7iweY7.jpg

      https://pm1.narvii.com/7182/89420252765a92c785ae1a72dce4103943aef9ber1-1100-1650v2_hq.jpg

      These just further the point that Fourth Grade is simply First Grade but trained to be second-hand, so that the users could stay calm despite Super Saiyan's roots in anger, and so that they could conserve energy, remaining in the form for days on end to maximize the potential of the form. It's a perfect balance between strength, speed, and stamina, which is what Goku wanted because of the drawbacks of Third Grade. He even mentioned that First Grade has a better balance than Third Grade.

      https://pm1.narvii.com/6875/5ce31f39f4c05652642e316e97a0046d35c48091r1-1440-1314v2_hq.jpg

      Then, there's the Daizenshuu stating that Fourth Grade draws Super Saiyan to its full power, which falls in line with my statement of it maximizing the form's potential, with its full power still being x50 base. This isn't drawing out the full power of all of the Super Saiyan forms, the Daizenshuu doesn't generalize the Super Saiyan Grades like that.

      So yeah, Super Saiyan Fourth Grade is just the First Grade but more stable so it can used at 100% all the time, which is the same principle used for Perfected Super Saiyan Blue from the manga. Everything else is pretty cool.

      Well, that's going to be quite fun. You are absolutely right, I didn't give enough sources, and i see you don't have any problems with the other multipliers as it stands. So I went after a few more



      Despise the incoherence of Super Saiyan Third Grade being a higher multiplier than Super Saiyan Three for that logic, the whole situation with Broly is not justifiable with "it doesn't look the same", his Mastered Super Saiyan form is not treated as a Legendary form at all, but as a Fully Powered version of his Regular Super Saiyan state, it's how it is referred as, and so how we should interpret it. Grade 4 = Grade 1… That ain't true, ya know. It's blatantly stated at least 3 times in the Boo Arc that SSJ2 "Even further" surpasses SSJ1, indicating that they were already using a form superior to Grade I



      さらに: Adverb, Conjunction1. furthermore; again; after all; more and more; moreover; even more

      1. furthermore; again; after all; more and more; moreover; even more







      The notion that FPSSJ/SSJ Grade 4 is stronger than Grade 1 is a rather old concept. It's stated multiple times they must surpass the SSJ wall in order to face the Artificial Humans, let alone Cell https://m.imgur.com/a/S0OHXJe


      After Goku and Gohan leave the HTC, Vegeta mentions how they literally aren't using Grade I, despite the looks:



      Chapter: 390 (DBZ 196), P6.1-2

      Context: Goku and Gohan emerged from the Room of Spirit and Time

      Vegeta (to self): “…What’s with them?!...Is that Super Saiyan…!? No…It has a slightly different atmosphere…They’re being so natural in that state…”



      He also mentions how now they can raise their power without strain, a reference to what Goku said on the Grade forms being stressful over the body:



      Vegeta: “They’ve judged that state as the best! If they get used to that as a matter of habit, then even if they raise their battle power, the strain on their body is very small! [...] They’ve thought this through…”



      https://imgur.com/a/Y873xzN



      "Super Saiyan" relative to the musclebound. If he were still using Grade I Cell would've one shoted him.



      Some argue Vegeta's merely talking about Goku raising to 100%, but the Japanese Anime clarifies this, adding a scene where Trunks compares FPSSJ to Grade III



      https://imgur.com/a/UAoVDFZ



      His thoughts in response to Vegeta's comment. Anime only, but really clarifies things.



      Some fans take Goku's statement as proof that FPSSJ and SSJ are the same power up, but if that were the case Grade 2 Vegeta would be > SSJ Goku by that fact alone. They also forget to take into account the context: Goku is calling the Super Saiyan the "most balanced" in comparison to the strainful, sluggish Grade forms and is refering to training as a Super Saiyan Grade 1, not fighting Cell with it. He’s aiming to have power superior to that of Grade 1 without the unbalanced stats that come along with Grade 2 or 3. He obviously couldn't have fought Cell using the same transformation he used to fight Freeza or #19, as it's stated to have it's limitations

      https://imgur.com/a/SduBWdk



      We have many other sources that prove that Grade 4 > Grade 1. And the source that implies that it'd surpass Grade 3 as well.



      https://imgur.com/a/KmXqIIC




      We also have this guide here, The guide pretty much suggests that Grade 4 is a form higher than Grade 3, and Grade 5 is ranked as the highest of the forms as displayed.



      https://imgur.com/a/IA1GNTV



      But this same guide ranks The forms from weakest to strongest. It starts off by explaining Grade 1. It describes each form as an evolution to the previous one, in which power and everything (except speed for Grade 3) increases once being undergone by the Saiyan.



      "The Theory of Super Saiyan Evolution

      The 4 Super Saiyans power up each time they battle a strong foe! This complete analysis categorizes the process and history of their evolution, grade by grade!"



      It ranks the forms from the very basic form into the strongest form (it calls Grade 1 "basic" referring to it as the weakest despite mentioning Grade 4, and calls Grade 5, the end of the chain, as the "strongest form"). This guide is being straightforward in its ranking between the forms, so denying the ranking is not quite plausible:



      "Super Saiyan Grade One (Basic Form)

      When they transform into Super Saiyans their battle power, the height of their ki, and muscle strength are all dramatically increased compared to when they are regular Saiyans! What's more, once they transform their black hair stands straight up and is dyed gold, and they emit an intense aura. This form could be called the basis for all later Super Saiyans from Grade Two onward!!"



      This description is implying that Grade 1 is a basis for all the other forms which means it differentiates between Grade 1 and Grade 4, and that Grade 4 is an upgrade on Grade 1. So, the guide is being straightforward on its point that Grade 1 is the weakest, and each grade is stronger than the previous one. Ssj2 is also stated to be the strongest form as it suggested:



      Super Saiyan Grade Five (Strongest Form)

      "An aura with sparks like flashes of lightning and an upright, combative hairstyle are the distinguishing features of this, the strongest Saiyan warrior! One's personality also becomes aggressive; even the ordinarily gentle Gohan started to enjoy battle! Its power is enough to push back even Cell's energy bullet, which had enough force to blow away the Solar System!"






      About the El Legendario Manga, I think you misinterpreted what the guide said, you also miss the most crucial points from the guide to support your personal interpretation. For one, Grade 3 being a 10x Multiplier on Grade 2 is a very logical, uncontradicted point at all. To go further into the topic, Daizenshuu 10 also supports this point heavily, in which it claims that Grade 1 Super Saiyan is the very Base form of all Super Saiyan forms and the rest are upgrades. 



      https://imgur.com/a/RIR1nCz



      "Anime Version: Super Saiya-jin Genealogy

      The strongest warrior in the universe, the Super Saiya-jin. Here we’ll profile the genealogy of the Super Saiya-jin, including characters who only appeared in the anime, and variations that appeared over the course of Super Saiya-jin evolution!!"



      So here, Daizenshuu 10 is pretty much implying that the forms are EVOLVING each grade they're jumping into, and that they're going to analyse each one based on the "SUPER SAIYA-JIN EVOLUTION" and not necessarily the plot progression of the forms. Meaning each further grade is above the previous one. This is also supposed by how Ssj3 is explained to be the strongest form to exist, and that Grade 1 Ssj is the base of all forms, aka the weakest of them all. This pretty much puts Grade 4 > Grade 1 by default. The following is even more interesting:



      "Super Saiya-jin

      Super Saiya-jin’s biggest distinguishing characteristics are the golden hair that stands up straight, and the green pupils. Also, because they are in a continuous lightly agitated state, their personality also becomes wild. This type is the first grade of Super Saiya-jin, and can be called the base for all Super Saiya-jins."



      The Daizenshuu 10 describes the Grade 1 Ssj as the base form of all the Super Saiyan forms, meaning it's the very starter of the forms and is considered to be the Grade 1 out of all the other variations, meaning it's a basic starter of all the Forms. The guide is very clear on how it's distinguishing the Regular Ssj from Full Power Super Saiyan, and that they're not quite the same. The guide also claims that Grade 2 and 3 are powered up versions, while Grade 4 is a version where it allows you to stay in your Ssj state without any agitation:



      "Variations

      Grades 2-3 are powered up versions of the Grade 1, which Goku, Vegeta, and Trunks have the ability to transform into. Full Power time is a type where they are able to unconsciously exist in the Super Saiya-jin state, and even the wildness of their personality vanishes. Only Goku and Gohan can transform into this."



      DBS also shows a very amazing example regarding Power of Grade 4. In the Universe 6 Arc for instance, Base Vegeta was stated directly to be equal to Base Cabba and nothing contradicted that in the slightest at all. Later on, Vegeta blocks Cabba's punch as a Ssj without even flinching. You will have to prove why Base Vegeta isn't equal to Base Cabba even though it's stated and feat-wise it's all proven. Grade 4 > Grade 1 explains this scenario almost perfectly



      https://imgur.com/a/Mjd6FPl



      Now to add on something from Dragon Ball Super as Well, Katopesla vs Vegeta proves this. Katopesla fights evenly with Base Vegeta using his Battle Mode which is 300x his usual Base form

      Let's take these values:



      Battle Mode Katopesla:

      Speed = 1

      Power = 300



      Base Vegeta was shown to EVENLY fight with Katopesla, and when Katopesla goes Ultimate, Vegeta is forced to go Ssj to overpower him and even uses a Final Flash against Katopesla, and still resists. Ultimate Mode boosts The usual power of a character by 300x both speed and Power:



      Ultimate Mode Katopesla:

      Speed = 300

      Power = 300



      Base Vegeta:

      Speed = 1

      Power = 300



      Mssj Vegeta:

      Speed = at least 300 (probably 500)

      Power = at least 90000 (probably more)




      MSSJ, therefore, cannot be a 50x multiplier, being *at the very least* 300x.



      https://imgur.com/a/u7H8uPY

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    • He didn't use Gohan as a weapon, Gohan was simply the only one strong enough and the only reason Goku stopped his own fight was because he saw he was just making Cell stronger.

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    • User:Nullflowerblush, sorry if It seemed rude at some point, that was NOT my intention. I'm going to estimate the god forms as well, hope you like it

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    • Is it really misguided? Those are the exact 3 villains from the last arcs. He's not wrong Also if I remember correctly he wanted Goten and Trunks to finish off Buu comparing this to Gohan I find it worse sense Goku knows way less about them compare to Gohan and they are even less trained so leaving the Earth fate with them felt more like a leap faith.

      From what I see the problem with Goku not coming back and making Gohan beat Cell is that this gave the fans the idea that Goku was passing the torch and overall a feeling of character development for Goku but it ended up to not being the way most predicted

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    • So Kefla was announced for fighterz.

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    • Hopefully Rule34 can make a model out of that-

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    • UI Goku looked so cool too.

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    • this post was made by the Dokkan gang

      Mtc6wz08glv31
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    • Can we use this render for Dragon Ball Super Ultra Instinct Goku Form
      Ultra Instinct Goku RenderDGM
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    • DemonGodMitchAubin wrote:

      Can we use this render for Dragon Ball Super Ultra Instinct Goku Form
      Ultra Instinct Goku RenderDGM

      Yes. FINALLY!

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    • HOLY SHIT

      EQW-WgSWAAIrFpp
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    • guys i think bleach fans are still pushing for reiatsu crush working on anyone despite when it was rejected in staff threas and a rule was made

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4012905

      are they breaking wiki rules?

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    • Doesn't Reiatsu crush only work when there's a large AP difference anyway? 

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    • yes that is what was finally decided and concluded in this therad where several staff members agree with it

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3467976

      a rule was also made because of this at the end

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    • Ki does the same thing and it's not accepted, why would it be accepted for Bleach ? every single anime with a specific energy source has that, the whole 'X will passively crush people too weak' isn't new and certainly isn't exclusive to bleach.

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    • HrishikeshM wrote:
      guys i think bleach fans are still pushing for reiatsu crush working on anyone despite when it was rejected in staff threas and a rule was made

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4012905

      are they breaking wiki rules?

      If making that argument is breaking wiki rules then this site needs new rules. 

      Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match. 

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    • I don't know about breaking the rules but that argument sure isn't valid.

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    • At one point I was thinking of doing Janemba vs Soul king but DBZ vs Bleach don't seem to go well a lot of the time.

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    • PFM18 wrote:
      Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match. 

      That's a very good question. I think Post UIS2 Goku SSJB and UIS2 Goku are roughly the same in power. Kelfa is roughly around the same power though her final attack boosted her power so great, she could one shot Goku. I think Vegeta would have the advantage as he was only slightly weaker to a degree compared to SSJBKK Goku. Kefla could win with her Gigantic Burst attack but I think Vegeta will just take it via skill. 

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    • During Episode 123, Super Saiyan Blue Goku, who was still beaten and exhausted from his fight with Kefla and from the use of Ultra Instinct Sign, took on a less suppressed than 109-110 Jiren, who was able to effortlessly, somewhat, push back and overpower 109-110 Goku's Super Saiyan Blue x20 Kaio-ken Genkidama, the attack that Whis stated Super Saiyan Kefla was equal to.

      So, the chain goes like: "Less Suppressed 123 Jiren >= Exhausted 123 Super Saiyan Blue Goku 123 Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta >= 115 Ultra Instinct Sign Goku >= 109-110 Heavily Suppressed Jiren >= 110 Ultra Instinct Sign Goku > 109-110 Super Saiyan Blue x20 Kaioken Universe 7 Genkidama = 115 Super Saiyan Kefla."

      This isn't even taking into account all of the other fights between Episodes 115 and 123, where Goku and Vegeta got several more Zenkai Boosts, increasing her power even more signicantly.

      And, Kefla's Ray Blast was done in her Super Saiyan 2 form.

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    • So if Kefla turns SSG does her hair turn red or brown.

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    • Green .

      Hehe.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      So if Kefla turns SSG does her hair turn red or brown.

      Asking the real questions here, but to answer your question.......

      neither. 
      BROG
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    • It kills me that the only forms where Broly's hair aren't green are his SSJ4 form and his SSJ form.

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    • But...but... but... that form cant turn bluuuuuuueeeeeee

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    • lol

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    • Lmao

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    • So, now for the God Form multipliers, this is rather simple, actually! I got this scaling from a Brazilian called "The God of Saiyans", so let's move on.



      Super Saiyan God



      The God form has no official multiplier, but we do have some statements on that form. First we have Goku stating that even while fusing with Vegeta, he wouldn't stand a chance. By that time, the Potara fusion was the only logical option, so we'll go with that. 




      There's actually two ways of going with this, first, we can look at the guide's statement which said Vegetto was stronger than a Super Saiyan 3 while in base form, therefore, Base Vegetto was more than x4000 stronger than base form Goku. We will put Vegetto at x4000 to be safe, if we multiply Vegetto by the MSSJ multiplier (more than 300x, for the reasoning stated in my last message, I'll put it 500x), Super Vegetto would be x2,000,000. And that's just a Low End, because we could also assume Vegetto could go Super Saiyan 3 since even Gotenks could, then the multiplier would be x16,000,000




      Method 1:



      Super Saiyan God Low End: x2,000,000




      Super Saiyan God High End: x16,000,000






      The other option is, take DBS' word for it and assume Potara's formula is (A+B)×10×n since Vados stated it's their power added together and multiplied by tens of times, which can vary from 20 to 90.

      Assuming Goku and Vegeta had around the same power while in base form, it's basically x2.



      Base Vegetto Low End: 2×20 = x40×500



      Base Vegetto Mid End: 2×50 = x100×500



      Base Vegetto High End: 2×90 = x180×500



      Then,



      Method 2:



      Based off Super Vegetto:



      Super Saiyan God Low End: x20,000



      Super Saiyan God Low Mid End: x50,000



      Super Saiyan God Low High End: x90,000



      Based off SSJ3 Vegetto:



      Super Saiyan God Mid End: x160,000



      Super Saiyan God High Low End: x400,000



      Super Saiyan God High End: x720,000




      Okay.



      Method 1: SSJG: x2 Million to x16 Million (x8 ratio)



      Method 2: SSJG: x20000 to x720000 (x36 ratio)




      Since this was stated before the Super Retcon, I'll pick method 1. Hope this doesn't upset anyone (Jk, most of you don't care since this is pointless)




      Super Saiyan Blue:



      The Blue form also have some other methods to measure its multiplier. First, uh... The DBS manga... It stated Blue to be at least 10x stronger than God, so yeah... I don't think that's reliable in the slightest.




      Manga's statement:

      Blue: 20 million to 160 million



      The second method is, while an extremely tired God Goku got his ass kicked by Base form Kefla, his equally tired Super Saiyan Blue form took care of SSJ Kefla, they were evenly matched in terms of raw power, and only lost due to stamina being drained because of his Kaioken Kamehameha at the very end of the fight.



      Base Kefla => God Goku

      SSJ Kefla 500x > Base Kefla

      Blue Goku = SSJ Kefla

      Blue Goku +500x > God Goku




      Therefore, method 2:



      SSJG Goku (L.E): 2,000,000x



      SSJB Goku (L.E): +1,000,000,000x




      SSJG Goku (H.E): 16,000,000x



      SSJB Goku (H.E): +8,000,000,000x




      Final (Estimated) Results:



      Super Saiyan God: 2 Million to 16 Million




      Super Saiyan Blue (Manga Statement): 20 Million to 160 Million



      Super Saiyan Blue (Sheer Logic): 1 Billion to 8 Billion

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    • It would be cool if a guide get published to tell us the SSJG multiplier or DB Kakarot get a DBS DLC with a multiplier in the codex.

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    • 12:35

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    • NFmsVZG
      Also we should change the current SSJG pick to this. But of course we need the removal of the black streaks.
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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:
      Okay, so ep 123 SSB Vegeta vs peak SSJ Kefla, who wins? interesting little versus match. 

      That's a very good question. I think Post UIS2 Goku SSJB and UIS2 Goku are roughly the same in power. Kelfa is roughly around the same power though her final attack boosted her power so great, she could one shot Goku. I think Vegeta would have the advantage as he was only slightly weaker to a degree compared to SSJBKK Goku. Kefla could win with her Gigantic Burst attack but I think Vegeta will just take it via skill. 

      Yeah I have them really close in power which is why I asked.

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    • Same SSJBE Vegeta, LSSJ2 Kefla, and GoD Toppo seem to all be in the same ball park. 

      The Low 2-C Hierarchy looks something like: (Using the most recent Goku and Vegeta)

      MUI Goku and UBW Jiren

            ^

          LSSJ Broly

            ^

      Base Jiren, GoDs, UIS Goku 

            ^

         SSJ Broly

            ^

      SSJBKK Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, LSSJ2 Kefla, and Anilaza, Possibly DBS:B Golden Frieza

            ^

      SSJB Goku, SSJB VegetaLSSJ Kefla, and Infinite Zamasu, Possibly Ikari Broly

         

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      NFmsVZG
      Also we should change the current SSJG pick to this. But of course we need the removal of the black streaks.

      The shading is cooler, but I honestly prefer the current one because it has a better pose and aura

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      Same SSJBE Vegeta, LSSJ2 Kefla, and GoD Toppo seem to all be in the same ball park. 

      The Low 2-C Hierarchy looks something like: (Using the most recent Goku and Vegeta)

      MUI Goku and UBW Jiren

            ^

          LSSJ Broly

            ^

      Base Jiren, GoDs, UIS Goku 

            ^

         SSJ Broly

            ^

      SSJBKK Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, LSSJ2 Kefla, and Anilaza, Possibly DBS:B Golden Frieza

            ^

      SSJB Goku, SSJB VegetaLSSJ Kefla, and Infinite Zamasu 

         

      Wait what? SSB Vegeta~SSJ Kefla yet SSJ2 Kefla~SSBE Vegeta?  SSBE is more than a 20x multiplier, SSJ2 is not. SSB Vegeta~SSJ Kefla<SSJ2 Kefla<<initial SSBE Vegeta<final SSBE Vegeta

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    • It's hard to power scale in the TOP since it's a no kill tournament so no matter the power difference, the stronger one will have to hold back enough to not risk killing his opponent, which get muddy as fuck since those are new characters so we don't have much info on them to begin with so we can't say how much the stronger one would need to hold back for any given match up.

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    • @Dragomer misusage of higher forms doesn't help the already messed up chain: SSJ Vegeta exchanging blows with Ribrianne, Goku going Blue just to kick Ribrianne, and some SSJ fights in general

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote:
      @Dragomer misusage of higher forms doesn't help the already messed up chain: SSJ Vegeta exchanging blows with Ribrianne, Goku going Blue just to kick Ribrianne, and some SSJ fights in general

      Yeah, what form they need to deal with any given characters change from one episode to the other, it's weird.

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    • PFM18 wrote:
      AwkguyDB wrote:
      Same SSJBE Vegeta, LSSJ2 Kefla, and GoD Toppo seem to all be in the same ball park. 

      The Low 2-C Hierarchy looks something like: (Using the most recent Goku and Vegeta)

      MUI Goku and UBW Jiren

          ^

          LSSJ Broly

          ^

      Base Jiren, GoDs, UIS Goku 

          ^

         SSJ Broly

          ^

      SSJBKK Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, LSSJ2 Kefla, and Anilaza, Possibly DBS:B Golden Frieza

          ^

      SSJB Goku, SSJB VegetaLSSJ Kefla, and Infinite Zamasu 


      Wait what? SSB Vegeta~SSJ Kefla yet SSJ2 Kefla~SSBE Vegeta?  SSBE is more than a 20x multiplier, SSJ2 is not. SSB Vegeta~SSJ Kefla<SSJ2 Kefla<<initial SSBE Vegeta<final SSBE Vegeta

      It's not a chain these characters are linked based on being the closest comparable and placing them in a sub tier for Low 2-C. I also notated that they were the Current Iterations, SSJB Vegeta has gotten much stronger by the end of the tournament

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    • Well can anyone help me verify if these scans are real or fanmade,I got it from my friends years back but when I asked him about where he got them from this year he doesn't remember so I would appreciate the help thank you

      If these turns out to be true it would be even more supporting evidence for Goku and Beerus being universal

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4002148

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    • AwkguyDB wrote: Same SSJBE Vegeta, LSSJ2 Kefla, and GoD Toppo seem to all be in the same ball park. 

      The Low 2-C Hierarchy looks something like: (Using the most recent Goku and Vegeta)

      MUI Goku and UBW Jiren

            ^

          LSSJ Broly

            ^

      Base Jiren, GoDs, UIS Goku 

            ^

         SSJ Broly

            ^

      SSJBKK Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, LSSJ2 Kefla, and Anilaza, Possibly DBS:B Golden Frieza

            ^

      SSJB Goku, SSJB VegetaLSSJ Kefla, and Infinite Zamasu, Possibly Ikari Broly

         

      And the borderline Low 2-C DBS that aren't quite there yet due to lack of statements or feats:

      Vegito Blue, Corrupted Zamasu, SSJ Kefla and Current SSJ God Goku/Vegeta imo.

      Why possibly for Ikari Broly also? He's blatantly Current Blue Goku tier.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:

      AwkguyDB wrote: Same SSJBE Vegeta, LSSJ2 Kefla, and GoD Toppo seem to all be in the same ball park. 

      The Low 2-C Hierarchy looks something like: (Using the most recent Goku and Vegeta)

      MUI Goku and UBW Jiren

          ^

          LSSJ Broly

          ^

      Base Jiren, GoDs, UIS Goku 

          ^

         SSJ Broly

          ^

      SSJBKK Goku, SSJBE Vegeta, GoD Toppo, LSSJ2 Kefla, and Anilaza, Possibly DBS:B Golden Frieza

          ^

      SSJB Goku, SSJB VegetaLSSJ Kefla, and Infinite Zamasu, Possibly Ikari Broly


      And the borderline Low 2-C DBS that aren't quite there yet due to lack of statements or feats:

      Vegito Blue, Corrupted Zamasu, SSJ Kefla and Current SSJ God Goku/Vegeta imo.

      Why possibly for Ikari Broly also? He's blatantly Current Blue Goku tier.

      IDK Sometimes I rewatch that fight and feel Goku was dominating.

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    • And Bro IDK why SSJ Kefla is not  Low 2-C, she surpassed the Spirit Bomb which should be Baseline. 

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    • What has the Spirit Bomb done to suggest it is Low 2-C?

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    • If I recall correctly, Legendary Super Saiyan 1 and 2 Kefla is the same thing as Super Saiyan 1 and 2. It's been referred to as such.

      Current Super Saiyan God Goku and Vegeta should be more powerful than 131 Goku, who took out an exhausted Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren, someone I assume is more powerful than 100% Jiren since BUW unleashes his hidden power, which leads into Wrath State Broly being in that tier.

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    • Exhausted Jiren is way weaker than his Base 100%, he struggled against Golden Frieza and later against Base Goku/17/Base Frieza, Unless you think Current Base Goku is above everyone in the ToP barring MUI Goku and UBW Jiren.

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    • How do we know Goku didn't receive an enormous Zenkai Boost from Ultra Instinct?

      And, Frieza is Frieza.

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    • He could have gotten an Zenkai boost, but Jiren was really exhausted and it was pointed out that's the whole reason Frieza kept up with him.

      Golden Frieza before that got stomped by God Toppo and Base Jiren, and he didn't receive any power boost.

      If we say Current Base Goku got an enormous Zenkai boost to make him > UIO3 Goku we would be saying Base and Ikari Broly would stomp the whole ToP which is stupid.

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    • Nullflowerblush wrote: How do we know Goku didn't receive an enormous Zenkai Boost from Ultra Instinct?

      And, Frieza is Frieza.

      How do we know he did? Since when could you attribute zenkai boosts to achieving a new form?

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    • How? The fact that it was literally ripping his body apart. Saiyans get zenkais from stressing themselves out all the time.

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    • After each Ultra Instinct Sign (and Ultra Instinct in 130) usage, Super Saiyan Blue Goku  (base Goku in 131) has been able to fight a Jiren who was less suppressed than the last time, despite becoming progressively more beaten and exhausted, a clear show of his massive increases in power following his transformation.

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    • Nullflowerblush wrote: If I recall correctly, Legendary Super Saiyan 1 and 2 Kefla is the same thing as Super Saiyan 1 and 2. It's been referred to as such.

      Current Super Saiyan God Goku and Vegeta should be more powerful than 131 Goku, who took out an exhausted Burning Ultimate Warrior Jiren, someone I assume is more powerful than 100% Jiren since BUW unleashes his hidden power, which leads into Wrath State Broly being in that tier.

      Bruh. episode 131 Jiren is far weaker than his base form.

      And lol no. Ikari Broly is low 2-C for fighting head to head with Blue Goku who was holding his own against Jiren using a hint of his true power.

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    • DBZ: Xenoverse 2, DBFZ, and now DBZ: Kakarot, that might be the top three of Dragon Ball Games for this decade

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    • Veloxt1r0kore wrote: DBZ: Xenoverse 2, DBFZ, and now DBZ: Kakarot, that might be the top three of Dragon Ball Games for this decade

      I personally enjoyed Kakarot much more than Xenoverse 2 tbh.

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    • I heard Kakarot ain't all that great, and that it cut out a lot of things like Super Trunks and Vegeta's Final Flash.

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    • FighterZ still has the top for me when it comes to gameplay.

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    • how would you call a fusion between:

      Goku and Broly

      Vegeta and Piccolo

      Gohan and Trunks

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    • a little doubt i have about whis and great priests ability https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4012133

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    • Karoly, Vejunior, Gohanks.

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    • How about... Groky

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      How about... Groky

      No. None of that. Shame on you.

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    • Nullflowerblush wrote:
      Karoly, Vejunior, Gohanks.

      Gothanks

      Go-thanks

      get it? eh? eh?

      ...I know where the exit is.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      how would you call a fusion between:

      Goku and Broly

      Vegeta and Piccolo

      Gohan and Trunks

      Karoly (カロリー Karorī)

      Picceta

      Gohanks

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    • As a non-english speaker, everytime i hear one of the american VA, i want to rip out my ears.

      Especialy Bulma's, she sound like such a shrilling harpy, i can't stand it.

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    • Dragon Ball's English dub, ESPECIALLY THE Z ONE, makes me want to rip my ears tbh, Freeza's voice is especially bad.

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    • @Dragomer: Eh, really? Also grew up with a different dub here, but... I actually think the English dub is  solid, especially nowadays, just that it's a big departure from the Japanese and in many ways is its own thing. For example... I am not a big fan of Christopher Sabat's Vegeta and Piccolo, but that's mostly because of how different they are from their Japanese counterparts (and the dub I am biased to =P) but otherwise I think he's an excellent VA and really like his other work not filtered by that issue.

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    • TartaChocholate wrote:
      @Dragomer: Eh, really? Also grew up with a different dub here, but... I actually think the English dub is  solid, especially nowadays, just that it's a big departure from the Japanese and in many ways is its own thing. For example... I am not a big fan of Christopher Sabat's Vegeta and Piccolo, but that's mostly because of how different they are from their Japanese counterparts (and the dub I am biased to =P) but otherwise I think he's an excellent VA and really like his other work not filtered by that issue.

      Well, you can have your opinion on them, if you like them, good for you but i really can't stand the english VAs, i find that whole dub thing freaking awful.

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    • The dubs went to shit with the actors ganging up on Vic and all and by the time I reached the Cell Saga in DBZ Kai I lost my interest in the dub.

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    • I grew up with the english dub, so I love the voices, but I do agree the Vic situation made it really hard to like the dub knowing that while the voice acting is good, the people behind said voices are pretty shitty

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    • KLOL506 wrote: The dubs went to shit with the actors ganging up on Vic and all and by the time I reached the Cell Saga in DBZ Kai interest in the dub.

      I would say the opposite. Kai and Super are by far the best parts of the English dub, the actors actually knew how to act by this point so they voices fitted somewhat better and the translation got a really good improvement (even when they kept many earlier mistakes for nostalgia's sake). Also, Kai didn't have the Falconeer music, and that alone is a massive upgrade from Z.

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    • I loved the dubs as a kid back then. I literally grew up with it. And yeah it's got massive nostalgia to it.

      But like Demon said, it became pretty hard to associate with dubs after the shitstorm that happened.

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    • Even in Super i'm not a fan at all and i'm personaly stunned that some people prefer that 'Falconeer' stuff to the actualy japanese music when  DBZ has freaking amazing stuff in japanese while the american stuff was meh at best.

      I had never heard of it before interacting with the american fanbase.

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    • Having grown up with neither I can say I like both the EN Dub and the JP Dub.

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    • @Dragomer: Of course, I was just sharing personal thoughts on it. If you don't like the english dub, that's perfectly legitimate as well.

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    • Dragomer wrote: Even in Super i'm not a fan at all

      Well, while I stil don't think it is a good dub by that point, at least it is decent, with some acceptable voice acting and relatively solid translations, unlike the simply bad dub the Z one was, because that dub was just bad , not "so bad it's good" like the Italian, Portuguese and Castillian/Spaniard ones.

      Dragomer wrote: i'm personaly stunned that some people prefer that 'Falconeer' stuff to the actualy japanese music when  DBZ has freaking amazing stuff in japanese while the american stuff was meh at best.

      I fully agree there. I can't even process that awful heavy electronic is even a Dragon Ball music, when Z had really great orchesthal music. And let's not even talk about the full blown cringe that Rock the Dragon is...

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    • Add Jiren to the list. His VA is top tier.

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    • Zamasu is voiced by Shinchiro Miki which in a hell of a VA. Can't remember Jiren's Japanese VA, but his english one is Patrick Seitz isn't he?

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    • The best

      Dont forget Frieza's VA, hoooohohoho

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    • PaChi2 wrote:

      Dont forget Frieza's VA, hoooohohoho

      Ryuusei Nakao's work as Freeza is simply perfect, I don't have enough words to praise his performance.

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    • Oh yeah, it just nails perfectly both ends in Frieza's character: the otherwordly and menacing alien and the affable and soft spoken façade hiding his true evil.

      It's quite telling most dubs have to choice one of the two ends, either the freaky alien voice or the soft spoken bad guy voice

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    • What evil? Frieza is pure, unadulterated badass

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    • I still find funny how a part of Freezer was based on loan sharks that were repent in Japan around that time, It leading to a Yakuza style DB game would be awesome.

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    • TartaChocholate wrote: Oh yeah, it just nails perfectly both ends in Frieza's character: the otherwordly and menacing alien and the affable and soft spoken façade hiding his true evil.

      It's quite telling most dubs have to choice one of the two ends, either the freaky alien voice or the soft spoken bad guy voice

      The spanish dub has a raspy voice that Im not sure in which end would fall.

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    • Um, there are 2 Spanish dubs, the very literal Latin American one and the "so bad it's good" Castillian/Spaniard one. Which one are you talking about?

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    • Latin American or Spain? The Latin American pretty much tried to go for the soft spoken sadist, but if an interview with his VA is to go by, the director told the VA essentially: "well you went with classy, bombastic, freaky alien imitation, and sassy, no make him sound pretty macho"

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    • When I say Spanish I mean Spain.

      When I want to say Latin American I say Latino.

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    • Make sense

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    • The Brazilian VAs for Broly and Future Trunks are amazing, on par with the original

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    • Oh hey look, it's the "English is the Devil, Japanese is God, nyeh!" thing for the 3484767298th time! Can we get 348476729 9 times? WILL THIS DUMB ARGUMENT EVER END?! Find Out, on the Next Episode of "Pointless Shit That Doesn't Matter Yet People Act like it's a fucking World War Z!"

      (This is a joke, in case y'all can't tell)

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    • It's not an arguments, it's just us, people of culture, joining hands around an universal truth.

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    • Love the Dub 

      Schemmel will always be my Goku but I do not respect him or the rest of the cast in IRL with the exception of a few, like Eric Vale, Chris Ayers and Chuck Huber.

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    • Yeah I really like the dub. Specifically Kai and some parts of Super. Funimation really F'ed up on the TOP tho.

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    • Dragomer wrote:
      It's not an arguments, it's just us, people of culture, joining hands around an universal truth.

      That has to be a depressing life if the only way people can be united is either rejecting everything but their own "truth" or hating something or. It's why Star Wars is the most pathetic fandom of all. (InB4 someone says the fandom has a right to be pissed)

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    • Lollipop The King wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:
      It's not an arguments, it's just us, people of culture, joining hands around an universal truth.

      That has to be a depressing life if the only way people can be united is either rejecting everything but their own "truth" or hating something or. It's why Star Wars is the most pathetic fandom of all. (InB4 someone says the fandom has a right to be pissed)

      The dude who went 'it's a joke if you can't tell' can't spot an obvious joke it seems

      They not only have a right to be pissed, they are right to be pissed.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: Toei really F'ed up on the TOP tho.

      ... What does Toei have to do with anything? We're talking about dubs, the only dub they have control over is the Japanese one.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: Toei really F'ed up on the TOP tho.

      ... What does Toei have to do with anything? We're talking about dubs, the only dub they have control over is the Japanese one.

      I made a mistake I wanted to say Funimation but I wrote Toei without realizing it lmao 😂

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      Lollipop The King wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:
      It's not an arguments, it's just us, people of culture, joining hands around an universal truth.

      That has to be a depressing life if the only way people can be united is either rejecting everything but their own "truth" or hating something or. It's why Star Wars is the most pathetic fandom of all. (InB4 someone says the fandom has a right to be pissed)

      The dude who went 'it's a joke if you can't tell' can't spot an obvious joke it seems

      They not only have a right to be pissed, they are right to be pissed.

      Would still be Irony or hypocrise?

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    • I am not a Star Wars fan in the slightest and I still understand why they are pissed and they have every right. Last Jedi was a joke and RoS was supposed to be damage control but jacked up the franchise even more lol.

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    • Dragomer wrote: The dude who went 'it's a joke if you can't tell' can't spot an obvious joke it seems

      That was a joke?
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    • The only Star Wars fandom that I felt went too far/were too damned salty are OT purists that attacked the PT relentlessly and unfairly judged it as the worst garbage to ever exist. Is it flawed? Yes. But worth the level of pure hatred that it attracted? No.

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    • Star Wars in the DB Discussion Thread?

      I've been looking forward to this.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      The only Star Wars fandom that I felt went too far/were too damned salty are OT purists that attacked the PT relentlessly and unfairly judged it as the worst garbage to ever exist. Is it flawed? Yes. But worth the level of pure hatred that it attracted? No.

      ReyLo XD they were toxic too 

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    • I stay away from shipping culture, but I have heard they were really damned bad. I'm just not sure if they are quite as bad as OT purists could be regarding the PT.

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    • Jar Jar is why everyone hates the prequels, tbh.



      Back on topic, is there ever a time that Vegeta and Piccolo are on even enough terms to justify a fight being able to take place between them that wouldn't be a curbstomp in either's favor?

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    • Namek Saga; Piccolo, post-Fusion and Vegeta, post-Krillin Zenkai perhaps?

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    • Only time I can think of Piccolo and Vegeta are of even terms are in Android saga when Vegeta obtained SSJ and Piccolo got much stronger after Namek saga

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    • Yeah Piccolo was strong enough to take on Android 21/Dr. Gero whom should be comparable to Android 19. But I think in the Namek Saga they are more comparable like @Nullflowerblush said.  

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    • How far away are them in the Cell Games?

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    • IIRC in the android saga Piccolo said Goku was much stronger than he was, then when he's healed of the Heart Virus Goku said that if Vegeta couldn't beat the androids then he stood even less of a chance.

      So Android saga Vegeta is stronger than Android Saga Piccolo.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      How far away are them in the Cell Games?

      I believe Piccolo was far stronger than the Base Saiyans but was probably around SSJ Vegeta Post RoSat 

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    • Oh yes I remember how Vegeta SSJ was able to struggle atleast with Android 18 while Android 17 easily dispatched Piccolo so Vegeta is much stronger never mind 

      Then wow Piccolo and Vegeta were never comparable in the whole series

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    • But Namek saga Piccolo and Vegeta still have huge difference because Piccolo post Nail fusion was able to take on 2nd form Freiza but stood no chance againat 3rd form Freiza while Vegeta post Zenkai was able to barely keep up with 4th form Frieza

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    • My area wrote:
      But Namek saga Piccolo and Vegeta still have huge difference because Piccolo post Nail fusion was able to take on 2nd form Freiza but stood no chance againat 3rd form Freiza while Vegeta post Zenkai was able to barely keep up with 4th form Frieza

      IDK If Vegeta vs Frieza counts he got no hits on Frieza what so ever and Freiza fodderized him.

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    • Good point but Vegeta was able to react to very casual attacks by final form Frieza while Piccolo couldn't even perceive it so that should atleast put Vegeta above 3rd form Freiza and Piccolo 

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    • Vegeta was even confident to defeat Frieza initially, despite the fact he saw the Third Form stomping Piccolo really badly.

      He was by far the strongest of the bunch before Goku came.

      I am sure the Cell Games is the moment where Vegeta and Piccolo are the closest in power.

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    • I think Saiyan saga was the moment where Piccolo and Vegeta were closest with Piccolo being in 408 and Vegeta being in 18 000 and 24 000 with galic gun with difference between their PL being very low as compared to other arcs

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    • I don't even think the Cell Games was close. Vegeta was far stronger than Post-Kami Piccolo with his Ascended state, and judged 50% of SS Goku to have surpassed him before going into the Time Chamber again.

      Of course, Piccolo also went inside the Time Chamber, but considering Vegeta already had a large power gap with Piccolo and went back in with the intent to surpass Goku...I wouldn't be surprised if their gap was still pretty huge.

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    • Omegas03 wrote: Vegeta was even confident to defeat Frieza initially, despite the fact he saw the Third Form stomping Piccolo really badly.

      He was by far the strongest of the bunch before Goku came.

      I am sure the Cell Games is the moment where Vegeta and Piccolo are the closest in power.

      Well, same could be said about Goku and Vegeta tbh. DBS upscaled Vegeta's role to Goku's rival, but in the original run they were rarely ever close in power and Goku kinda dropped his rivalry with Vegeta after the namek saga although Vegeta remained obsessed with him.

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    • The only character that Goku has managed to consistently maintain an interest in, across all canons, seems to be Frieza.

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    • Who wouldnt be interested in Frieza? Hoooo ho ho ho

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    • According to Kakarot (guys don't hurt me), Vegeta during his fight with Final Form Frieza had a power level of 1,500,000 which is around Piccolo's unknown power level. Second Form Frieza was stated to be over 1,000,000 and Piccolo was over that.

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    • Are there more power levels stated in Kakarot?

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    • Speaking of kakarot, what happens when you are defeated by bosses like frieza or cell there? A cutscene appears or what.

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    • BlastX wrote:
      Are there more power levels stated in Kakarot?

      I don't think anything past Cell Arc

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    • Thelastmlg wrote:
      Speaking of kakarot, what happens when you are defeated by bosses like frieza or cell there? A cutscene appears or what.

      Nah you have to pretty much retry until you win.

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    • New unused drafts for the DBS Manga (unclear for now if they were meant for the previous chapter 56 and excluded, or will be used as part of upcoming chapter 57- Little info has been provided yet on the Official DBS News site where they were published) :

      https://imgur.com/a/eExu1i4

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    • Cyttorak wrote:
      New unused drafts for the DBS Manga (unclear for now if they were meant for the previous chapter 56 and excluded, or will be used as part of upcoming chapter 57- Little info has been provided yet on the Official DBS News site where they were published) :

      https://imgur.com/a/eExu1i4

      Krillin looked like a badass

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      Cyttorak wrote:
      New unused drafts for the DBS Manga (unclear for now if they were meant for the previous chapter 56 and excluded, or will be used as part of upcoming chapter 57- Little info has been provided yet on the Official DBS News site where they were published) :

      https://imgur.com/a/eExu1i4

      Krillin looked like a badass

      It's a copy past of the Nappa fight.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      AwkguyDB wrote:

      Cyttorak wrote:
      New unused drafts for the DBS Manga (unclear for now if they were meant for the previous chapter 56 and excluded, or will be used as part of upcoming chapter 57- Little info has been provided yet on the Official DBS News site where they were published) :

      https://imgur.com/a/eExu1i4

      Krillin looked like a badass
      It's a copy past of the Nappa fight.

      SHUSH AND LET MY BOY HAVE HIS MOMENT XD

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    • I want to see one good scene from Toyotaro that he didn't trace from the DB manga.

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    • What Freeza sees vs what we see

      78952914 2574173195971613 7381089301779447808 n
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    • Puny god~

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    • Still no real news or new stuff for DB except DB Kakarot.

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    • "Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Big Bang Mission" exists.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      "Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Big Bang Mission" exists.

      Isn't it pretty old news ? what's special about the big bang missions ?

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      "Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Big Bang Mission" exists.

      Isn't it pretty old news ? what's special about the big bang missions ?

      It's not "old news", and we don't know what's special, it hasn't even come out yet LOL.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      "Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Big Bang Mission" exists.
      Isn't it pretty old news ? what's special about the big bang missions ?
      It's not "old news", and we don't know what's special, it hasn't even come out yet LOL.

      Oh yeah, I was actualy thinking of Univers Mission, not Big Bang mission.

      Still, SDBH isn't really much of a news in general IMO.

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    • Heroes is the main hax and AP source on Dragon Ball, so it's relevant for this wiki.

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    • I think Hearts profile lacks abilities, but I'm not sure which, can someone check it?

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      I think Hearts profile lacks abilities, but I'm not sure which, can someone check it?

      I think it does lack abilities.

      Time for CRT

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    • Please do, he's definitely missing Statistics Amplification and Reduction, as well as possible mindhax.

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    • So Toki Toki can just pop the multivers up again despite it having been eaten by Mechickabaru and sealed ? sound OP.

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    • http://imgur.com/a/sZ1M24O

      Would this do anything to the Super ratings, maybe at least the range (Goku's Kamehameha was able to extend from the real world into Hit's parallel world).

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    • I don't remember any evidence for Goku's Kamehameha breaking Hit's dimension or anything like that, and even if it did, it's a pocket space that Hit creates.

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    • YesDragomer wrote:
      So Toki Toki can just pop the multivers up again despite it having been eaten by Mechickabaru and sealed ? sound OP.

      That it is. Even in the game, where the multiverse's spacetime had been outright obliterated and Mechikabura had been even more thoroughly sealed, Tokitoki just pops it back.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      I think Hearts profile lacks abilities, but I'm not sure which, can someone check it?

      My guy change the pictures we have renders for Hearts lol (save Godslayer)

      Base Hearts

      Super Hearts

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      I think Hearts profile lacks abilities, but I'm not sure which, can someone check it?

      Existence Erasure because he destroyed Zamasu who apparently came back from Timeline wipe.

      Limited Sealing via Cubes 

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    • AwkguyDB wrote: My guy change the pictures we have renders for Hearts lol (save Godslayer)

      The profile is locked dude, I can't change anything on it.

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    • I went to hearts' profile and it says that he can negate durability with the universe seed.

      But in his powers and abilities nothing implies that.

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    • The closesPaChi2 wrote:
      I went to hearts' profile and it says that he can negate durability with the universe seed.

      But in his powers and abilities nothing implies that.

      The closest thing to that his cards give him is that the UM9-62 card for Super Hearts (which would scale to Ultimate Hearts) can negate the durability of attackers if his team has more Hero Energy.

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    • The wording of Hearts profile is kinda off.

      Base Hearts never fought Jiren he only trolled him twice, his base form scales to Blue Goku who he defeated easily.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote: Base Hearts never fought Jiren

      He fought with Jiren on the game, which is what I used as the basis for scaling.

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    • Oh so it's based on the game. There's a big difference between the base and super hearts in the game tho so maybe it should be 2 different keys.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      I think Hearts profile lacks abilities, but I'm not sure which, can someone check it?

      Danmaku

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Oh so it's based on the game. There's a big difference between the base and super hearts in the game tho so maybe it should be 2 different keys.

      Super Hearts actually fights weaker people than Base Hearts (he is present during the fight with UI Goku, but Ultimate Kamioren was the focus of that fight anyway) and doesn't really do anything to stand out.

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    • You could technically give him:

      Paralysis Inducement via Gravity Manip

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    • Also I would add that damaging the Universe seed in Ultimate Godslayer Hearts' chest would lead to an existence erasure.

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    • I dont think that's a thing.

      We dont give paralysis via crushing people with gravity.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      I dont think that's a thing.

      We dont give paralysis via crushing people with gravity.

      That's the thing he didn't crush Goku with Gravity yet in this instance Goku was in the air and even telekinetically moved towards hearts while being completely immoblized. Guildo has PI as well with his Time Stop ability including even though the PI is a result of the TS.

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    • Guldo can paralyze people, tho? And thr ability is not related to TS.

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    • @AwkguyDB Can you stop posting things like crazy? I told you already, the profile is LOCKED, it can't be edited by anyone but staff. If you want to add all that stuff, make a CRT.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      @AwkguyDB Can you stop posting things like crazy? I told you already, the profile is LOCKED, it can't be edited by anyone but staff. If you want to add all that stuff, make a CRT.

      My guy you said earlier that Hearts lacked abilities and for us to point them out, I am just telling you what abilites he lacks.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      @AwkguyDB Can you stop posting things like crazy? I told you already, the profile is LOCKED, it can't be edited by anyone but staff. If you want to add all that stuff, make a CRT.

      My guy you asked earlier that Hearts lacked abilities I am just teling you what abilites he lacks.

      Yeah, I asked back when the profile wasn't locked, no one said anything, it was locked, and people starting posting things like crazy. Like, wtf?!

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      AwkguyDB wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      @AwkguyDB Can you stop posting things like crazy? I told you already, the profile is LOCKED, it can't be edited by anyone but staff. If you want to add all that stuff, make a CRT.
      My guy you asked earlier that Hearts lacked abilities I am just teling you what abilites he lacks.
      Yeah, I asked back when the profile wasn't locked, no one said anything, it was locked, and people starting posting things like crazy. Like, wtf?!

      lol alright I'll do a CRT later if you don't. There's few other characters I just realized lacked abilites again throughout DB Media

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    • Laggs

      Summary

      Laggs is one of the antagonist of Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission. She is a member of the Core Area Warriors, a league of individuals whose goal is to free the multiverse from the tyranny of the gods, setting on a mission to use the power of the Universe Seed to kill Zen'ō.

      Powers and Stats 
      Lagss render

      Tier: 2-B

      Name: Lagss

      Origin: Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Universe Mission

      Gender: Female

      Age: Unknown

      Classification: Member of the Core Area Warriors

      Powers and Abilities: Superhuman Physical Characteristics , Acrobatics , Ki Manipulation (Can be used defensively and offensively, to strengthen his skin or to fire ki blasts, which can home in on targets, and form defensive barriers ), Self-Sustenance (Types 1), Ki Sensing , Spaceflight , Enhanced Senses , Possibly Sound Manipulation and Portal Creation (Characters stronger than or equal to Super Boo and SSJ3 Gotenks should be able to perform the Vice Shout through sheer power), Possibly Limited Earth Manipulation (Her main ability is Glass manipulation and can form different constructs with her glass), Danmaku, Petrification (Completely petrified Fused Zamasu in a sheet of glass), Summoning ( Summoned a Gigantic Dragon made of glass against the Z warriors.), Barriers (With her Glass abilities), Teleportation (Can traverse to different Universes on her own.), Healing (Can heal with her glass, seen when she healed Cumber), Attack Reflection (With her ‘Float Mirror’ technique, she can send back attacks from enemies), Resistance to Extreme Cold , and Cosmic Radiations .

      Attack Potency: Multiverse Level ( Scales to Super Saiyan God Vegeta who is on par with Goku in the same form who would scale higher than Base Xeno Goku, With her Glassification, she is able to turn Fused Zamasu into glass.)

      Speed: Massively FTL+ (Kept up with Dyspo)

      Lifting Strength: Unknown

      Striking Strength: Multiversal 

      Durability: Multiverse level (Tanked attacks from SSJG Vegeta)

      Stamina: High

      Range: Standard melee range. Multiversal with ki blasts, attacks, and portals.

      Standard Equipment: N/A

      Intelligence: Laggs is a smart and pragmatic individual as she choose to attack and neutralize her foes without giving them to chance to counterattack or recover and was able to foresee Zamasu's betrayal.

      Weaknesses: She is too sure of herself and can leave herself open for attacks.

      Notable Attacks / Techniques:

      Ki: The fighting power and life force of a martial artist, a tangible energy derived from the user's vigor, courage, and mind. It can be used in several ways, such as to surpass the limits of one's body to greatly increase in strength, and it can be fired as blasts of energy or used to create defensive barriers.

      • Flight - The ability to fly through the use of ki.
      • Glass Manipulation - As a member of the Glass Tribe, Laggs has the innate ability to manipulate and control glass for various purposes.
        • Glassification- Laggs can cover things in glass or turns things into glass. She can do this to injured people to restore them (as she did with Cunber) or to restrain foes (as she did to Narirama and Nigrissi).
        • Glass Generation- Laggs can create glass at will. By touching the ground she is able to generate sharp pillars of glass from it.
        • Glass Bullet - Laggs fires shards of glass at her enemies.
        • Float Mirror (Shield Mirror) - Laggs creates a mirror to deflect attacks.

      Others

      Notable Victories:

      Notable Losses:

      Inconclusive Matches:

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    • You guys think my Bae deserves a profile? This is using her Manga showings btw.

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    • Sealing isn't a way to get Regen Neg.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      Sealing isn't a way to get Regen Neg.

      Sounds fair I'll remove it

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    • The formatting on Lagss's page is awful, someone fix it fast before it gets deleted.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      The formatting on Lagss's page is awful, someone fix it fast before it gets deleted.

      Give me something to fix, It looks like her size was a bit big and that effected the powers and abilities

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    • I mean, it looks like you just copy-pasted your above comment on visual mode instead of using source mode to make it.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      I mean, it looks like you just copy-pasted your above comment on visual mode instead of using source mode to make it.

      ..........................................I mean

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    • I remember someone saying that there is a huge difference in terms of power between the Xeno Goku from the manga and the Xeno Goku from the game, is that right? I couldn't confirm

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote:
      I remember someone saying that there is a huge difference in terms of power between the Xeno Goku from the manga and the Xeno Goku from the game, is that right? I couldn't confirm

      Not really, the only difference I know of is the fight between SSJB. In the game I think they are closer to equals while Goku SSJB is a bit stronger than Xeno Goku in the manga. I mean he straight up blocked an incoming attack from SSJ4 Xeno Goku in Base Form XD.

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    • SSJ4 Xeno Goku in the manga has the "History Deletion upon Transformation" feat.

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    • Basically, in the manga they say that Xeno Goku was forbidden to use Super Saiyan 4 because the form is so powerful that merely being in it could damage the timeline. In the game he just does it, and that's that.

      The statement doesn't even make any sense, because he uses it just fine on the Prison Planet, and that didn't break history.

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    • Lagss lacks a Key after absorbing the incomplete Universe Seed.

      https://www.deviantart.com/ssjrose890/art/Laggs-Render-2-822339900

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    • For good reasonProudLearner wrote:
      Lagss lacks a Key after absorbing the incomplete Universe Seed.

      https://www.deviantart.com/ssjrose890/art/Laggs-Render-2-822339900

      For good reason, because it didn't happen.

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    • ProudLearner wrote:
      Lagss lacks a Key after absorbing the incomplete Universe Seed.

      https://www.deviantart.com/ssjrose890/art/Laggs-Render-2-822339900

      WHEN!!!??? Not in the Manga which is where I got most if not all of her showings from ​​​​

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      WHEN!!!??? Not in the Manga which is where I got most if not all of her showings from ​​​​

      NVM. My mistake lol.

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    • 7-3 and Merus just crying in the corner

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    • Paradisum wrote:
      LMAO

      If these characters appeared in the ending song of the movie like that, I would have legit laughed like crazy lol

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    • So, how accurate is this list?

      Top 50 Strongest Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universal Conflict Saga Characters ドラゴンボール ヒーローズ Māngā

      Top 50 Strongest Super Dragon Ball Heroes Universal Conflict Saga Characters ドラゴンボール ヒーローズ Māngā

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      My guy change the pictures we have renders for Hearts lol (save Godslayer)

      Base Hearts

      Super Hearts

      I took care of it.

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    • The animated trailer for Big Bang Mission 1 has dropped.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh3yPBWK6Kk

      They've also released another trailer showing some of the cards - it's not too interesting though, far shorter than the usual ones they release.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43dzPIj69N8&t=0s

      There's also a recap of the Time Patrol storyline to advertise the upcoming Mechikabura special.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1BBbZDoJvg

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    • AKM sama wrote:
      AwkguyDB wrote:

      My guy change the pictures we have renders for Hearts lol (save Godslayer)

      Base Hearts

      Super Hearts

      I took care of it.

      You are a legend AKM sama

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    • Look like CC Goku and Xeno Goku are confirmed to be below the GoDs in that trailer.

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