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  • AKM sama
    AKM sama closed this thread because:
    11:42, March 29, 2020

    EDIT: It's just the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff left to discuss

    Minor stuff first

    Minor Outlier Removal

    On Count Dooku's profile, his fight against Yoda was listed as a supporting feat for his AP. However, Dooku vs Yoda is considered an outlier, plus IIRC several statements actually say that Yoda was casual or something. So that should be removed.

    Applied

    Jango Fett Downgrade and Upgrade

    Canon Jango Fett's speed should be downgraded to Peak Human. His fight against Obi-Wan was considered an outlier (which is why he isn't High 7-C), and thus his speed shouldn't be Massively Hypersonic.

    However, Legends Jango Fett is actually quite powerful, and should indeed scale to Jedi's combat speed. To quote Eficiente:

    Jango defeated & killed Dooku's apprentice as a boss fight in his game, no surprise attacks or cheap tactics. The Jedi Jango took out & killed and his fight with Obi-Wan were both done due to pure combat skills and strategic tactics. And Windu considered Jando in high regard in and way before their duel, the latter did not got stomp, he didn't notice a failure in his jetpack, failed when trying to use it and got killed due to that.

    The canon versions of most bounty hunter suck but the lagends version of Jango and Boba should very much scale in terms of speed."

    Here's a compilation of Legends Jango Fett's speed feats.

    However he only scales in terms of speed and combat speed, not AP.

    He also has a lifting strength feat of moving a Hutt. Jabba the Hutt weighs 1358 kg, and that Hutt should be similar, so Class 5 lifting strength for Jango and Boba Fett.

    Speed

    Jedi's Precognition

    I calculate Jedi's base reactions (without Force precognition) to be Supersonic.

    Currently, we attribute Star Wars' MHS and MHS+ feats to precognition. However, Eficiente disagrees.

    Not sensing the clones' betrayal should not be enough, as the Force amps Jedi physically and makes them superhuman. I know our calcs attribute their speed feats to their precog, but this is bullsh*t. Also, there would be no reason to scale this to other characters, as the wording here maybe suggests.

    Personally I am fine either way but if we decide that Eficiente is correct then we should remove the "Wall level normally" stuff from the Jedis' profiles as well.

    Refer to below

    Speed Scaling

    Right now, we scale all the powerful High 7-C Jedi to Mace Windu's Massively Hypersonic+ feat. The original justification for this:

    Now on one of Kepekley’s blogs, I mentioned that Windu’s feat would not scale to everyone. Now I said that because I was then of the opinion that we should scale Windu’s MHS+ feat only to Yoda and Palpatine (no explanation needed) as well as Mother Talzin (she has traded blows with Windu and is just below Sidious in power). But then I remembered that Dooku faced off against Yoda and Maul briefly faced off against Windu and Palpatine by himself (though he obviously got the crap kicked out of him in the latter case).

    So I guess it might be okay to scale Force Adepts at strong Jedi Master level and Jedi High Council member level to the MHS+ feat? This would scale to Grievous as well obviously since he can keep up with combatants of such level (such as Ventress, who is quite swift herself) and overpower the likes of Padawan Ahsoka (who can only put up a defensive effort against him).

    ~ Soldier Blue

    I, however, disagree with this. Dooku vs Yoda is considered an outlier, plus Yoda is casual. And Palpatine was extremely casual in his fight against Maul IIRC. If we don't scale High 7-C characters to 6-C from a few outlier fight, then I see no reason their speed should scale too.

    Apparently another justification for the scaling is Kit Fisto fighting Sidious for a few seconds before dying, but it was clear in that fight that Sidious was much faster, as he killed 3 Jedi Masters in mere seconds.

    Not to mention Anakin, probably the most powerful Jedi at that time other than Yoda and Mace Windu, couldn't perceive Windu and Sidious fighting.

    Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.

    Correction: This is actually a Legends quote. Regardless, my point still stands.

    Updated suggestion: "Naturally Supersonic (Scaling/Feats), with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"

    Other stuff

    Lightsabers

    To shamelessly quote Eficiente again:

    We should rank the profiles with the characters' physicality and a different AP or a "higher" with lightsaber/s (obviously empowered by the Force), that part being above their AP & durability. We have something somewhat like that on profiles but it's weird, it looks like durability negation but everyone knows it's not that.

    And DarkDragonMedeus:

    Plus, the Lightsaber profile in general looks iffy, since it's mostly the wielder that determines how powerful a Lightsaber is like most melee weapons and not so much the Lightsaber generating that much energy.

    General Grievous's durability should probably be something like "At least Large Town level, likely far higher" since he states he is indestructible and Obi-Wan is unable to harm him either with physical blows or his lightsaber.

    "At least"

    I suggested making the most powerful Jedi like Dooku, Anakin, maybe Obi-Wan "At least High 7-C to note that they are more powerful than the average High 7-C Jedi.

    Eficiente disagrees though.

    Also I really don't like the "At least", the characters with it can still get harm by the characters without it, the real differences they have is in skill, the scale of their Force abilities and how some have some abilities others don't. There is some more power but not a lot.

    Still I think at least Anakin and Dooku should be noted to be superior to High 7-C.

    Conclusion

    • Remove Yoda vs Dooku from Dooku's profile Applied
    • Downgrade Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human speed - Update: Most people seem to be fine with this
    • Upgrade Legends Jango Fett to Relativistic+ and Class 5 Update: More input needed
    • Decide whether Jedi needs precognition and actively using the Force, or that they are augmented by the Force all the time Refer to below
    • Downgrade everyone to Massively Hypersonic except Yoda, Sidious and Windu Updated suggestion: "Naturally Supersonic (Scaling/Feats), with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"
    • Change lightsabers on characters' profiles to be "higher with lightsabers", as well as rewrite the lightsaber profile - Update: Still being discussed
    • Possible at least for the most powerful Jedi at the time of the Republic, although some people disagree - Update: Most people seem to disagree

    EDIT: Also we might possible downgrade Legends Palpatine and those who scale's speed.

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    • I agree with

      • Removing Yoda vs Dooku from Dooku's profile
      • Downgrading Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human speed
      • Upgrading Legends Jango Fett to Massively Hypersonic and Class 5
      • And changing lightsabers on characters' profiles to be "higher with lightsabers", as well as rewriting the lightsaber profile

      I disagree with

      • "General Grievous's durability should probably be something like "At least Large Town level, likely far higher" since he states he is indestructible and Obi-Wan is unable to harm him either with physical blows or his lightsaber." There was likely a confusion there, Obi-Wan can harm him with his lightsaber and the indestructible thing was only said in Legends afaik. Canon GG still got no damage from Obi-Wan's physical blows tho.
      • "Downgrade everyone to Massively Hypersonic except Yoda, Sidious and Windu" I agree with this normally but -- and I was going to bring this in my own SW thread -- I believe good enough Jedi can concentrate the Force on only their physical stats to briefly keep up with more powerful foes. This seems consistent to me, probably in both canon and Legends, in the former characters flee when they run out of stamina.
      • The possible at least for the most powerful Jedi at the time of the Republic
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    • Nvm about the Grievous thing then, misunderstood.

      Large Town level should be fine for him for tanking Obi-Wan's blows.

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    • For the "concentrate the Force on their physical stats" thing, firstly, what's the source for that; and secondly, does that mean they are briefly Island level as well?

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    • Where are canon lightsabers stated to be dependent on the user? Legends characters can certainly amp their weapons, even to the point matching lightsabers, but I can't find anything for canon force-users. Also, Finn was able to match Kylo's blade on multiple occasions, and there's orange kohlen crystals designed to cut through forcefields that normal kyber-crystal-based lightsabers can't in Master and Apprentice.

      Plus, the Lightsaber profile in general looks iffy, since it's mostly the wielder that determines how powerful a Lightsaber is like most melee weapons and not so much the Lightsaber generating that much energy.

      Kanan seems to disagree, though he is talking to Sabine, a non-force sensitive, about the Darksaber.

      • Energy constantly flows through the crystal. You're not fighting with a simple blade as much as you are directing a current of power.

      The rest is fine, I suppose.

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    • It wasn't stated, it's just logical. Without a Force user (& scaling) a lightsaber's AP is pretty low, even with a Force user the same happens if they are portrayed weak. See here for more.

      Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: For the "concentrate the Force on their physical stats" thing, firstly, what's the source for that; and secondly, does that mean they are briefly Island level as well?

      There is not a source directly stating that and they would not be Island level. For now everything I have to prove it is just every instance of someone fighting someone stronger, surviving for x reasons, and ending up tired whereas their opponent isn't, indicating that they did what they could with the Force while their opponent was fighting normally. I later need to find sources saying that fancy Force powers take more concentration to use, which may help that, and as something minor in Legends there is this fight where a Jedi could not keep up or defeat Grievous but he could still hold his own for some time.

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    • So shouldn't we make them "Massively Hypersonic+ in short bursts" or something? Similar to Reverse-Flash (CW)'s profile.

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    • Also it is true that lightsabers do generate energy, but its only by the Force user that they are up to Tier 7 or Tier 6.

      They still have some pretty good Tier 8 feats though.

      Also Kylo Ren was already wounded, exhausted and emotionally distressed when fighting Finn, and still effortlessly outclassed him.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:
      So shouldn't we make them "Massively Hypersonic+ in short bursts" or something? Similar to Reverse-Flash (CW)'s profile.

      I would put it like this: "Naturally X, with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)"

      Speaking of Kylo, his "Small Building level with armor against directed energy weapons (Able to survive being hit by Chewbacca's Bowcaster [a weapon superior to a blaster] while distracted over being mentally torn by killing his father Han Solo)" needs to be removed, I don't remember what book (iirc the novelization of TFA) stated that he used the Force to defend himself from that.

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    • That seems fine to me.

      Should be fine. Although I find it weird that Rey and Kylo Ren have higher physical durability than the Republic Jedi and Luke.

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    • Eficiente wrote:

      Speaking of Kylo, his "Small Building level with armor against directed energy weapons (Able to survive being hit by Chewbacca's Bowcaster [a weapon superior to a blaster] while distracted over being mentally torn by killing his father Han Solo)" needs to be removed, I don't remember what book (iirc the novelization of TFA) stated that he used the Force to defend himself from that.

      Here's the exert from The Force Awakens novelization. It doesn't say he did and directly implies the opposite.

      Eficiente wrote:
      It wasn't stated, it's just logical. Without a Force user (& scaling) a lightsaber's AP is pretty low, even with a Force user the same happens if they are portrayed weak. See here for more.

      It's neither logical nor stated in canon (once again, I'm talking about canon, not Legends). Also, all of those points (as I directly showed) fall flat, such as a lightsaber being more powerful in a force-user's hands.

      "The idea of materials having lightsaber resistance would make no sense."

      No, it makes even less sense if lightsaber users have variable strength depending on force-sensitivity.

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    • Well Anakin did cut Mace Windu's arm despite being significantly weaker, so there's that.

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    • I think that's Legends, unless it's just another part of the Clone Wars, which exists in both continuities. If it's the latter, then I say to you pretty much any force-user can be cut by a lightsaber if they're not telekinetically stopping it

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    • I share pretty much the same thoughts as Eficiente

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    • I'm actually supporting your point, cuz Anakin is significantly weaker but his lightsaber can cut Windu.

      So all lightsabers should be 6-C or what?

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    • When did he actually cut Windu? Continuity and context is important.

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    • At the end of Windu vs Sidious.

      Although this might just be Windu focusing on Sidious.

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    • It probably is just Windu letting his guard down and not allowing it to cut him. Weaker force users have blocked lightsabers with trouble.

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    • Windu was kind of distracted when Anakin cut his arm off. And yeah, the reason why Lightsabers shouldn't be Tier 7/6 without their wielders is based on a number of things. They often struggle to cut through Tier 8 body armors when those Lightsabers are picked up by fodder storm troopers; not at all like when a Jedi Master uses it. So Lightsabers are comparable to various Jedi when held by a Jedi or for characters like Grievous, it's his pure muscular strength. But it's not like Lightsabers generate Tier 7/6/5 levels of energy naturally.

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    • Darksaber was simply Tier 8, but Boba Fett and Jango Fett are equiped with Besker. And armor that protects against Lightsaber strikes, and they're still way weaker than most Jedi and Sith and no where near as durable.

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    • According to Ultimate Star Wars, Beskar is outright designed to be lightsaber-resistant, and it was used to combat the Jedi during their war.

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    • Yes, I know that. But that doesn't mean it has Tier 7/6/5 durability given Lightsabers are only that strong when a strong Jedi wields them.

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    • Again, it was used to combat the Jedi's lightsabers.

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    • ByAsura wrote:
      Eficiente wrote:
      Here's the exert from The Force Awakens novelization. It doesn't say he did and directly implies the opposite.

      My bad, it was the Last Jedi novelization.

      ByAsura wrote:
      Eficiente wrote:
      It's neither logical nor stated in canon (once again, I'm talking about canon, not Legends). Also, all of those points (as I directly showed) fall flat, such as a lightsaber being more powerful in a force-user's hands.

      "The idea of materials having lightsaber resistance would make no sense."

      No, it makes even less sense if lightsaber users have variable strength depending on force-sensitivity.

      ..But I linked something that was explicitly not using that as a point, but just regular strength alone. Like when characters above Tier 8 in any verse use things in the environment to harm others, but weaponized.

      ByAsura wrote:
      When? Gideon, for example, cut through a TIE Fighter like it was nothing. In Empire Ascendant and The Mandalorian, a TIE's cockpit is shown to be blaster-proof.

      Minor, but "like it was nothing" is exaggerated. It took him a while, sitting well the Darksaber's AP to that thing's durability.

      ByAsura wrote: According to Ultimate Star Wars, Beskar is outright designed to be lightsaber-resistant, and it was used to combat the Jedi during their war.

      Definitely not minor; most Jedi kinda suck next to all the popular ones, they all die by stuff that we usually we everyone defend themselves against. And this makes perfect sense given that there is not a set amount of power anyone has to have to be a Jedi.


      For the stuff about the Order 66, I don't remember where I saw it but the clones surrounding the Jedi and attacking them like that was a portrayed as a military strategy aimed to overwhelmed them in something that would be too much for them while knowing they had superhuman speed and could reflect the shots if attacked normally. At least in Legends.

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    • Where does it say that?

      Edit: It says he “instinctively contained it with the force” and the blow would’ve been fatal otherwise. I agree with the downgrade.

      As I explained before, these still stop Jedi lightsabers, such as the orange crystals. Also, what actual evidence is there that a lightsaber in a Jedi/Sith’s hand is more powerful?

      Even Kanan, Qui-Gon Jin and Grievous don’t instantly carve through metal hulls and blast doors, this because it’s not AP, it’s how fast they cut and dramatic effect. The point is, he had little to no trouble actually piercing the cockpit and carving through it.

      Ok, and? It still shows that Beskar is even resistant to a Jedi’s lightsaber and not the fodder material Medeus implied it was. Also, we have no real idea of how powerful Jedi from 5,000 years before the Clone Wars were in canon. Yoda and Windu are more powerful than them, but they’re also stated to be the strongest Jedi ever by canon guides, IIRC.

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    • Oh yeah, there also does exist a lot of fodder Jedi that are way weaker than the likes of Anakin. Anakin is a prodigy where even as a Padawan he was much stronger than most Jedi Knights. And various main stream Jedi are very similar. If Lightsabers were truly that powerful on their own, it makes 0 sense for them to be unable to cut through an suit of armor that's not even close to being anywhere near as durable those of AT-ATs. Bounter Hunters wearing Besker get killed by things way weaker than Tie Fighter blasts all the time.

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    • ByAsura wrote: As I explained before, these still stop Jedi lightsabers, such as the orange crystals. Also, what actual evidence is there that a lightsaber in a Jedi/Sith’s hand is more powerful?

      Idk the context of those orange crystals. Again, there is no evidence simply stating this, it's just something that makes more sense.

      ByAsura wrote: Even Kanan, Qui-Gon Jin and Grievous don’t instantly carve through metal hulls and blast doors, this because it’s not AP, it’s how fast they cut and dramatic effect. The point is, he had little to no trouble actually piercing the cockpit and carving through it.

      That's something one would say to justify our stats as facts that are always there, what's really happening there is that the characters are being portrayed with much lower stats than what they should have if the autors could analyze the verse as we do. This connects perfectly with one major point said in the conversation with Weekly; lightsaber are the only weapon that has its tier via powerscaling and not via its own feats, when by that logic blasters should scale to OP Jedi too as that's what they die to the most by and number 1 thing they need to always defend themselves against.

      ByAsura wrote: Ok, and? It still shows that Beskar is even resistant to a Jedi’s lightsaber and not the fodder material Medeus implied it was. Also, we have no real idea of how powerful Jedi from 5,000 years before the Clone Wars were in canon. Yoda and Windu are more powerful than them, but they’re also stated to be the strongest Jedi ever by canon guides, IIRC.

      I don't see where the first point leads to. We having no idea of how powerful the Jedi were back then doesn't really change anything.

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    • They’re just that, basically crystals that are more rare and powerful than Kyber. Look up Kohlen or read Master & Apprentice if you can. I’d give quotes, but I can’t right now.

      But it’s true if you watched even a single episode of the Clone Wars, Rebels, or the films. Nobody ever instantly carves out a section of metal. No, the truth that you have no real evidence, so you’re grasping at as many straws as you can.

      It’s still resistant to lightsabers from force sensitives, as are many things, such as Cortosis. Also, this apparently doesn’t take place too far before the Sith War, where the likes of Darth Bane existed.

      @Medeus Where’s your evidence for this? Also, it just says Jedi in general, not specific or fodder Jedi, and Beskar still exists after the Empire collapsed.

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    • I will see if I have time to read Master & Apprentice after first reading some other SW books, for everything else I don't have anything more to say, so I leave like that.

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    • Let's agree on the non-controversial stuff first should, we? Does anyone agree should be fine to remove Dooku vs Yoda, as well as the Jango Fett stuff (I guess that scales to Boba too)?

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    • Sure.

      @Efficiente Sorry if I came off as rude in that last post. I wasn’t exactly responding at the best of times.

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    • It's all good. Especially since we were disagreeing with each other for a while. Also my username just has one F (it's in Spanish).

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    • Ok.

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    • I still find it weird for Besker to have just some kind of weird power nullification that only works on Lightsabers. I also know about the Crystals used in Lightsabers to empower them, but I still don't think it's reasonable to assume all ligthsabers are Tier 7/6/5.

      Also, it's not like a bunch of Younglings are anywhere near as powerful as the likes of Obi-Wan. Grevious has also killed numerous Jedi before and yes there is a certain Padawan who's consistently defeated him one on one.

      Also, I recall Luke was actually strong enough to cut through Besker with ease due to his strength.

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    • Why’s that so weird? This is fiction. Given the existence of materials capable of stopping all types of lightsabers, pretty much no matter who holds it, the opposite is more likely.

      Younglings are clearly nowhere near Greivous, but a stronger character can still cut the same things with their lightsabers and withstand blows from others.

      Edit: Adding to the list of lightsaber resistant stuff, a Jedi Master during Order 66 would've taken a long time to cut through some blast doors.

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    • Speaking on this, I think we should remove Kylo's lightsaber feat. According to the Stormtrooper next to him, the Zillo Beast is indestructible, and Kylo's entire plan was to enter the shuttle and go inside the monster's mouth, where he cut through its stomach. This is clearly just a fictional trope and he couldn't kill it without going inside the Zillo Beast.

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    • I agree with that, and was already thinking it was weaker from the inside.

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    • I will remove the Dooku outlier since that seems non-controversial enough.

      I'd like more input on the Jango Fett stuff, even though no one seems to disagree with that for now. Same with the speed scaling stuff (Eficiente's suggestion).

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    • I agree with Janjo’s speed being downgraded (Medeus obviously does as well), but I’m neutral on his Legends feats.

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    • Also regardless if we decide that whether it depends on the strength of the user or the lightsaber itself, we should put lightsabers as something like "higher with lightsabers" on characters' profiles.

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    • I suppose I can get behind that. Maybe not that specifically, but something of the sort.

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    • What do you think should be put on the characters' profiles? Because the way we currently put them looks like they negate durability or something which is not true.

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    • I’m not sure. I’ll try think of something.

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    • What are the summarised conclusions here?

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    • Not much yet. We agreed on removing the Dooku outlier, and I'd like a bit more input on the Jango Fett stuff, but other than that we haven't reached a conclusion yet.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Is there anyone else who is knowledgeable about Star Wars other than Soldier Blue (he seems to be taking a break from the wiki)?

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    • I suppose I will apply the Kylo Ren stuff too, since they seem non-controversial.

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    • You can check if there are any staff and experienced members listed in the Star Wars verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List that you can ask for help.

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    • Matt's quite knowledgeable on Star Wars too.

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    • Yes, you should ask him as well.

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    • " Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once. The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine? Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening. "



      This Quote should not be used in relation to canon speed as it's from a Novel in the Legends Continuity

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    • Was just about to say this

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    • Ok.

      Regardless, my point still stands.

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    • Speaking of Legends, why are Yoda and Mace Windu MFTL+ but Sidious is only FTL+? Probably just a mistake?

      Also is everyone fine with the Jango Fett stuff?

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    • I though Sidious was already Massively FTL+, but I guess not. And I recall Matt being busy, but I can message him on Discord.

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    • I'm going to correct that then, seems like a mistake.

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    • what's the discussion here.

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    • Why is Jango MHS for keeping up with Rel+ Jedi

      Also not big on scaling him to Force users honestly

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    • My bad, should be Relativistic+.

      Yeah, I'm not sure about that too tbh.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: what's the discussion here.

      For now, downgrading Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human (him fighting Obi-Wan is an outlier), but scaling Legends Jango Fett to Jedi (speed only), since he consistently keeps up with them.

      Change the speed of Canon Jedi (except Yoda, Sidious and Windu) to "Naturally Supersonic (Scaling/Feats), with Force amplifications Massively Hypersonic normally (Scaling/Feats), up to Massively Hypersonic+ with enough effort (Scaling/Feats. Although this quickly consumes his/her stamina and only lasts a few minutes before exhaustion)", since they are in general inferior to the likes of Mace Windu and can only keep up in short bursts.

      Also we are debating about whether lightsabers depend on their user's physical strength or their own power.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:

      Speaking of Legends, why are Yoda and Mace Windu MFTL+ but Sidious is only FTL+? Probably just a mistake?

      Can somebody help out with finding out what calculation(s) that they are scaled from please?

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_Everlasting/Star_Wars_-_The_Old_Republic:_Vitiate_Travels_to_Zakuul

      I disagree with this scaling to anything but force-spirit speed, though. Also, someone brought up in the comments of this calc that Palpatine used a wormhole.

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    • @ByAsura

      That seems like a very good point, but for the moment Palpatine/Sidious should probably be scaled back to MFTL+ based on the calculation.

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    • Ok.

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    • I agree with ByAsura.

      Not sure about the wormhole thing, but that scales only to Dark Empire Palpatine anyway.

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote: Also not big on scaling him to Force users honestly

      The vagueness here personally makes me think that you didn't evaluate that properly, here is a reminder of Jango's stuff

      The reek followed Mace, and he had to slash wildly to fend it off. He did manage to drive it back, but was butted and lost his lightsaber in the process. He came up facing the reek, and figured that he could outmaneuver it to get his weapon back easily enough, but then an armored rocket-man flew down in his path, blaster leveled.

      Mace reached out with the Force and brought his lightsaber flying to his hand, moving like lightning to parry Jango's first shot. With the second shot, Mace was more in control, and his parry sent the bolt right back at the bounty hunter. But Jango was already in motion, diving sidelong and coming around ready to launch a series of shots the Jedi's way.

      He was stopped by the reek. Unable to distinguish friend from foe, the reek bore down on Jango. He scored a couple of hits, but they hardly slowed the beast, and he was tossed away. The reek charged him, trying to stomp him as he rolled about desperately. Jango was fast, though. Every time he came around, he fired again, and again, his bolts burrowing into the furious reek's belly.

      Finally, the huge bullish creature swayed, and Jango wisely rolled out the far side, opposite Mace, as the beast collapsed. The Jedi was on him immediately, lightsaber weaving through the air. Jango dodged and lifted into the air with his rockets, trying to keep one step ahead of that deadly blade and to occasionally fire a bolt at Mace.

      The man was good, Mace had to admit. Very good, and more than once the Jedi had to parry desperately to turn a bolt aside. He kept up his offensive flurry, though, keeping Jango on the defensive with sudden stabs and slashing cuts.

      One misstep...And then it happened, all of a sudden. Mace started to slash to the left, cut it short and stabbed straight out, then reversed his grip and sent the lightsaber slashing across, left to right. He spun a complete circuit, coming around to parry a blaster shot, but there was no shot forthcoming. That left to right reversal had cleanly landed. Jango Fett's head flew free of his shoulders and fell out of his helmet, to settle in the dirt.''

      ~ Attack of the Clones novelization
      Jango Fett bristles with weapons. An instinctive killer: the deadliest man in the galaxy. Jango can kill me in less than a second. I know it. Even if I had never seen Kenobi's report from Kamino, I can feel the violence Jango radiates: in the Force, a pulsar of death.
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    • Has anybody fixed Sidious' speed yet?

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    • He’s MFTL+ in both keys.

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    • Yoda and Mace scale to Sidious in a key in which he has no calc linked.

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    • I'm not sure why are they MFTL+ in the first place.

      @ByAsura True, but I think they scale to different calcs.

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    • @Eficiente I actually did read Jango’s stuff thank you very much

      The main reason I dislike this is weaker characters being portrayed as swifter then characters logically superior to them is a common fictional trope and has regularly been demonstrated as PIS.

      How many times have we seen similar revisions for other verses rejected? It’s frankly ridiculous to treat this as anything other then that trope

      Secondly the Kenobi fight shows Jango physically matching Kenobi. How can we use that to justify Jango having Rel+ speed while also treating him harming Kenobi as PIS?

      That’s cherry picking the sequence which I believe this very revision disparages doing for the canon Force Users.

      Also considering Mace is currently MFTL I believe you really don’t want to be using that as evidence of Jango’s scaling.

      I could also talk about the scaling chain this could create but I’ll ignore that for now.

      The best option is to scale Jango and Boba to their own feats plain and simple (at most with a likely far higher for the above addendums)

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    • The Kenobi fight is definitely an outlier, yes.

      I think Eficiente is trying to scale Jango to Dooku's apprentices though.

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    • I know

      I’m just saying several of his examples are invalid and this does not address the huge scaling chain this would likely create

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    • I suppose you agree with downgrading Canon Jango Fett as well?

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    • Oh definitely mate

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    • Also I just realized (I don't pay attention to Legends stats usually lol) that Legends Jedi are actually FTL in combat speed, so Jango Fett would actually be FTL, which is...iffy to say the least.

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    • Also I suppose Mace Windu, Yoda and Darth Sidious should be "At least FTL" for being invisible to the likes of Anakin.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:
      I'm not sure why are they MFTL+ in the first place.

      @ByAsura True, but I think they scale to different calcs.

      Sidious scales above Vitiate. That's why he's MFTL+, but I don't agree with force spirit speed, as I mentioned before.

      Speaking on this, Wutzek isn't a force-user, he's a force entity, and not even a Sith or necessarily a darkside practitioner.

      • One of those was a vastly intelligent and anomalous energy being, a glowing mass of interlinked, pulsating orbs called Wutzek, who the Five said was the last of the Force-Demons. When Chewbacca escaped his binds and freed Wutzek, the entity wasted no time disintegrating his sadistic captors. The Wookiee was permitted to depart with his companions and the remaining captive animals. Once the Falcon was at a safe distance, the cult’s ship was destroyed by a pale flash of light that resembled a gargantuan image of the Force Demon itself.

      The others are fine, though Jerec (w/Valley) and the Corsair seem iffy. It's more of a nitpick, though, since Palpatine would stay as Solar System level.

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    • Vitiate was also in spirit form tho

      I’d also note Palpatine sent shockwaves through the galaxy by empowering someone (I’d that translates to shaking we get MegaFoe Sheev)

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    • That's what I'm saying.

      Here's a calc.

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    • I agree with downgrading Palpatine's speed.

      Shaking the galaxy does sound like a good supporting feat.

      Btw that should probably be put on the reference for common feats page as well.

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    • Actually if it’s the whole galaxy it’d be an upgrade

      He’s currently above baseline so this would give him a proper number (only Dark Empire though)

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    • Anyway I suppose I'll downgrade Canon Jango and Boba Fett since everyone including Eficiente agrees with that.

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    • Also it seems that Legends Boba Fett is already FTL, so if we decide not to make Legends Jango FTL then Boba should be downgraded too I guess.

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    • Wouldn’t FTL be consistent then? Since Jango has consistent showings of fighting Jedi and Dark Jedi, and Boba has his feat against Vader and he did say that he’s killed Jedi before.

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    • I'm not sure about that. On one hand it does seem to be consistent on the other hand I'm iffy about scaling them to Jedi.

      Btw for Canon Boba and Jango, there's a good feat by a clone trooper that'll scale to them, during Order 66 Ki-Adi-Mundi deflected one of the blasts back and one of the clones was able to dodge them. So Supersonic (should be similar to my calc of Ki-Adi-Mundi deflecting the blasts, since the distance's the same)?

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    • I’d also note Boba probably has some decent stuff in the EU

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    • So what should we do here?

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    • @Antvasima There are a lot of stuff to be discussed in this thread, but atm we're discussing whether it's fine to scale Legends Boba and Jango Fett to Jedi (in terms of combat speed and skill). Eficiente thinks that in Legends it should be fine to scale Jango to FTL Jedi since he has lots of impressive feats of keeping up with Jedi, while Hellbeast1 believes we should scale them to their own feats to avoid inconsistency.

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    • I think FTL is fine for them. Mandalorians are consistently shown in the EU to be relative to the Jedi (the Jedi and Mandos did have an entire war against each other, after all).

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    • Okay. Thanks. Feel free to ask other staff members to help you out here if you wish.

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    • bump

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    • DarkDragonMedeus and ByAsura have already commented here, Soldier Blue seems to be taking a break from the wiki. Any of the rest are knowledgeable about Star Wars?

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    • I do not know, but there seems to be too few knowledgeable members available, so other staff likely have to try their best to evaluate the thread.

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    • WeeklyBattles also has some knowledge on Star Wars.

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    • Okay. Feel free to ask him as well then.

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    • bump

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    • Have you asked Weekly or any other staff for help?

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    • I did briefly discuss with Weekly about the lightsaber stuff on Discord, he knows about this thread's existence, but I presume he's too busy to comment here. I have also messaged AKM sama since he included Star Wars in the "verses I like" section on his user page.

      Haven't asked anyone else though.

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    • Bruce the Batman could be nice in here

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    • the ones that seem need to be discuss i think

      downgrade speed is fine, with the legends upgrade for jango fett is fine.

      At least for the strongest jedi doesn't seem to work cuz they are not that much superior afaik

      higher with lightsabers tbh doesn't seem right because it implies the lightsaber makes them a lot stronger

      A bit scarce on SW but that's what i got

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote: Bruce the Batman could be nice in here

      I will ask him then.

      @TISSG7Redgrave We're still trying to figure out how should we rate lightsabers and how we should put them on characters' profiles, but we haven't reached a conclusion yet.

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    • I actually have another thing about the speed of force lightning and the evidence in this thread. I’ll bring it up soon.

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    • You mean the speed of the force lightning we use in Mace Windu's feat?

      If that's invalid we could try to calculate Obi-Wan blocking a laser in Clone Wars, but it might be an outlier if the 2 lightning calcs are deemed wrong.

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    • Also

      I’d note Dooku pretty easily deflects his lightning sent back to him by Yoda in AOTC

      Yoga does it himself against Dooku and Sheev

      Pretty sure there’s some others out there

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    • Also regarding the "at least" thing, if we are not to make the strongest Old Republic Jedi "at least" I see no reason to make Rey and Kylo Ren "at least" either, since they're not that much stronger.

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    • The evidence for force lightning being similar to its natural counterpart comes from this thread. However, Lichtenberg figures (seen on Ventress after electrocution) are caused by electrical discharges in general, which can also produce similar thermal effects.

      Overall, the damages of his force lightning is very similar to general electrical injuries (differences between lightning and regular electrical injuries, for reference). The only difference is Ventress’ nose bleeding, but I can’t find evidence of lightning causing nosebleeds.

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    • I agree that there isn't enough evidence that it is natural lightning, maybe it is electricity. However according to our Lightning Feats page:

      Additionally, for calculations that involve lightning speed, one has to consider that the speed of real electricity can change due to a variety of factors, but for practical purposes, concerning attacks that are electricity-based, if they display power comparable to that of natural lightning, they should be considered to move at a comparable speed. It is required to show that the electricity carries an energy of at least 1.6 billion Joules or a voltage of at least 100 million Volts in order to qualify.

      So since Force lightning is High 7-C (by Dooku)/6-C (by Palpatine), they should travel at MHS+ speeds even if they are electricity, not natural lightning.

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    • I kind of doubt that, both just say the energy and voltage in lightning. They don’t say electricity with that amount of energy and voltage can travel at similar speed. Even if it did, Dooku is orders of magnitude more powerful than natural lightning.

      Basing a character off that logic may not be accepted here. I’ve heard we’d need a specific value of the lightning once for it to actually be applicable.

      Electricity in general travels at highly variable speed (1% SoL in homes). There are ways to calculate this, but ones we can’t actually use due to calc stacking and a general lack of information.

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    • It is true that speed of electricity varies, but according to our lightning standards if the power of the attack is at least 1.6 billion Joules, it can be considered MHS+.

      I'm pretty sure Force lightning overwhelming the likes of Mace Windu, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker is sufficient evidence. I don't think we need an exact value of the lightning.

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    • I’d also note you could call Sidious blasting the ships as speed

      Though I’m sure Force Lightning constitutes natural lightning with the mention of conduction in the novels

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    • Electricity is also conductive (I can’t remember the exact term for something that can be conducted, but I’m sure you get the point), though.

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    • Ah yeah fair point

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: I did briefly discuss with Weekly about the lightsaber stuff on Discord, he knows about this thread's existence, but I presume he's too busy to comment here. I have also messaged AKM sama since he included Star Wars in the "verses I like" section on his user page.

      Haven't asked anyone else though.

      Okay. We preferably need more input though. I personally think that this seems to make sense, but I am not a very good person to ask.

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    • I recall a discussion in which Soldier Blue gathered evidence of Force Lightning being considered real lightning. And it did feature a lot of scientific properties of a real lightning bolt. However, a lot of the showings do imply it's actually stronger and faster than natural lightning if anything. Because I doubt lightning bolts that travel through space and wreck space ships would be that slow or weak.

      Though, I agree that calc stacking is something that should be avoided, but it's implied if it has the same properties/elements of lightning combined with at least 1.6 Gigajoules it may be considered real lightning. I remember the days when it used to be only cloud to ground lightning can be considered real.

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    • That also seems to make sense.

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    • Eficiente wrote:
      I agree with
      • Removing Yoda vs Dooku from Dooku's profile
      • Downgrading Canon Jango Fett to Peak Human speed
      • Upgrading Legends Jango Fett to Massively Hypersonic and Class 5
      • And changing lightsabers on characters' profiles to be "higher with lightsabers", as well as rewriting the lightsaber profile

      I disagree with

      • "General Grievous's durability should probably be something like "At least Large Town level, likely far higher" since he states he is indestructible and Obi-Wan is unable to harm him either with physical blows or his lightsaber." There was likely a confusion there, Obi-Wan can harm him with his lightsaber and the indestructible thing was only said in Legends afaik. Canon GG still got no damage from Obi-Wan's physical blows tho.
      • "Downgrade everyone to Massively Hypersonic except Yoda, Sidious and Windu" I agree with this normally but -- and I was going to bring this in my own SW thread -- I believe good enough Jedi can concentrate the Force on only their physical stats to briefly keep up with more powerful foes. This seems consistent to me, probably in both canon and Legends, in the former characters flee when they run out of stamina.
      • The possible at least for the most powerful Jedi at the time of the Republic

      I mostly agree with this. Also Legends Jango should be 8-A

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      ~Snip~

      That's the thread I was addressing. They're certainly not weak, but wouldn't be as fast; the Resistance fleet are maybe a few kilometers off the ground when Palpatine fires his lightning, certainly not in space (that's also why the Resistance won, anyway, they were in the atmosphere where shields were non-functional). Also, both electricity and lightning can travel through space.

      It really doesn't, though. That should honestly still be in-use, it's how natural lightning works, unless there's some form of lightning rod function that a character has with their abilities.

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    • Electricity with at least 1.6 gigajoules can be considered to be as quick as lightning, and Force lightning is definitely stronger than that.

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    • I agree with Spino, and I also think Legends Jango being 8-A seems reasonable enough.

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    • I don't think anyone disagrees with 8-A Jango, we're just debating whether he should be FTL.

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    • ^^

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • Ok this is getting messy, let's try to discuss one issue at a time. Let's talk about Jango Fett being FTL first.

      Agree: Eficiente, LordTracer, TISSG7Redgrave, maybe DarkDragonMedeus (mostly agrees with Eficiente), maybe BruceTheBatman (mostly agrees with Eficiente)

      Disagree: Hellbeast1

      Neutral/Uncertain: Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan, ByAsura

      It does seem that there are more people supporting FTL Jango Fett, but I believe more input is needed.

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    • HellBeast actually does make a good point regarding the speed of bounty hunters. Neutral regarding combat speed scaling, but movement speed is obviously way lower than the Jedi.

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    • Movement speed should be lower. But combat and reactions should absolutely be FTL, that’s just consistent throughout basically every era of Mandalorians in the EU.

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    • I agree with Eficiente regarding the op

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    • bump

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    • i disagree with the dooku thing, to be honest. i would like to ask why is it an outlier? we know he is weaker and less skilled, but it doesnt matter, as that shouldnt take away the feat from him. there are plenty of sources that say that yoda was serious against him (albeit not going all out), and a few more than say that dooku ~ (and some say >) mace windu before ROTS. he shouldve been 4B for a long time now. him fighting anakin, who has accolades saying that he is more powerful than yoda as jedi (there are like, 9 of them), supports this. their fight on Vjun as well, as yoda was legitimatly trying to kill him there

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    • I agree-ish, but the part about being > Yoda as a Jedi is b.s. Dooku grew stronger during the Clone Wars and it makes very little sense for him to have lost strength.

      Edit: I didn't read that properly. You said Anakin. Jedi Anakin was certainly never Yoda level, Obi-Wan matched him even after he trained with Sidious.

      But maybe this belongs on a different thread where we can discuss the character's ratings. It's an outlier currently is what the OP is saying. Do you want to discuss this on my message wall, I've already got a planned thread in progress?

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    • To be fair, EU Anakin has more than a few statements about either being Yoda level or Mace Windu level (and some of those statements come from Windu himself).

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    • ByAsura wrote:
      I agree-ish, but the part about being > Yoda as a Jedi is b.s. Dooku grew stronger during the Clone Wars and it makes very little sense for him to have lost strength.

      Edit: I didn't read that properly. You said Anakin. Jedi Anakin was certainly never Yoda level, Obi-Wan matched him even after he trained with Sidious.

      But maybe this belongs on a different thread where we can discuss the character's ratings. It's an outlier currently is what the OP is saying. Do you want to discuss this on my message wall, I've already got a planned thread in progress?

      tell u what, ive commented on two different star wars CRT's already, and this anakin/vader/yoda/windu/obi wan topic can be answered in just one go. just DM me and ill try to compile everything into one go.

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    • Anakin, Obi-Wan and Dooku have been decided not to scale to Yoda, Sidious and Windu multiple times, I prefer if we drop this for now.

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    • so u dont wanna hear my possibly good arguments cuz u dont wanna deal with it, even if there is the possibility that i am correct? got it.

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    • Sorry if that was what I sounded like, I merely meant that we should discuss the things in the OP first.

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    • look, just hear me out on one (1) of those things, and ill try my best to show u what i meant. doesnt need to even be a CRT. it can just be u. if i can convince a mod that i am at least sound in logic, thats already a step toward making scaling as pefect as possible.

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    • Alright, but you should better PM me or ByAsura on our message walls instead.

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    • i know. im trying to not derail, but i got caught in the heat of the moment (kek). just delete these comments after ur done reading them.

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    • bump

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    • bump

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    • Btw I'll take back the "at least" upgrades I'm proposing, since Lorenzo and ByAsura are planning a revision for them.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:
      Btw I'll take back the "at least" upgrades I'm proposing, since Lorenzo and ByAsura are planning a revision for them.

      Thanks for spreading the word.

      Honestly, as far as i can tell, the revision COULD take some time, but if we are doing this half way to leave things wrongfully rated, then sure, a short revision can be done. But if u guys want a well done, thorough revision, some time might be taken.

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    • Also I guess I'll temporarily take back the speed revisions as well, since they would be affected if some of the Jedi are going to be upgraded.

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    • So it's just the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff left to discuss.

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    • i reread ur post, and the Obi Wan/Grievous stuff is wrong, IF we u are talking about legends. In the ROTS novel (i believe), Kenobi bends his arm like its made of cheap metal or somethin

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    • I think someone else has already corrected me on that.

      What do you think about the Jango Fett Legends stuff?

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    • Honestly, him being REL is kinda weird, but it follows him and his feats, so it will have to stay no matter what lol

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    • I kinda agree. It is weird for Jango Fett to be FTL combat speed and reactions, but he has consistently kept up with Jedi so I'm not really certain.

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    • He has actually sped some fodder jedi, but any jedi can deflect blasters with precog, but even then, they would be REL, so him being REL unfortunetly makes sense lol

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    • It doesn’t really make logical sense, but Mandalorians are portrayed as rivals to the Jedi so much that you can’t deny its consistency.

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    • So fodder Jedi are only Relativistic instead of FTL?

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: So fodder Jedi are only Relativistic instead of FTL?

      Fodder Jedi get hit by blasters all the time. Hell, some high end Jedi do. Look at ki adi mundi

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    • Well they didn't have precognition since the clones did not have any emotion and the Jedi couldn't sense their betrayal (in Canon).

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    • So Relativistic Jango Fett then?

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    • Rel Jango would be fine, I don’t think he has any feats of keeping pace with high tier Force users like Boba.

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    • He has feats vs Obi-Wan and Windu, but those are clear outliers or else Jango Fett would be 5-B since they traded blows.

      I think Relativistic is fine, to show that he is quite significantly inferior to the high tier Jedi.

      But why would Boba be FTL if his clone daddy is just Rel? Shouldn't they be comparable?

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    • I mean, Boba did survive longer than Jango and eventually become the Mand’alor, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he’s superior to Jango. You could downgrade him to Rel if you want though.

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    • I'll wait to hear what the others think first

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    • Also this isn’t making the Mandos Rel

      This would make them and all who scale FTL

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    • Fodder Jedi are not FTL

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    • First off, not all Mandos are REL. Boba, Jango, the Mandalorian Bosses (the indominable, the invincible, etc), and some other non force users actually scale to jedi in speed. Indeed, like i said, fodder Jedi are not FTL. A strong ish jedi can easily be overwhelmed by blaster fire. Actually, Mace Windu was impressed that Kenobi could deflect blaster fire coming from directions, implying that even Windu himself would have struggled to do it.

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    • LordTracer wrote:
      I mean, Boba did survive longer than Jango and eventually become the Mand’alor, so I don’t think it’s a stretch to say he’s superior to Jango. You could downgrade him to Rel if you want though.

      Jango honestly has better feats than Boba, but comparable is definitive.

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    • So why would they be Rel+ in movement speed scaling from Malak’s feat?

      Secondly argue that with those who are using fodder Jedi as justification

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    • I think the justification for Relativistic is that fodder Force users can still deflect blaster fire, which is lightspeed in Legends.

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    • Yes. ALBEIT, i will say something that could turn out to be quite important- blaster bolts in legends vary a lot in speed. They can implied to be supersonic just as much as they can be implied to be light speed.

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    • I was never fond of assuming all blasters are Light Speed

      Like irl firearms vary from Subsonic to Super sonic+ in muzzle velocity so it'd be stupid to just scale them all to the high end

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    • I believe it's because Legends blasters do have scientific properties of being real lasers.

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    • yes, but but superhuman/athletic human characters dodge them all the time. 

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    • But is this applicable to all blasters or a given model

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    • its applicable to more or less any weapon u can think of tbh. i would rather us not mess with the speed all over again, so it would be better to be done with this first, and THEN look at the speed.

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    • Excuse me does anyone know how far into 4-B is base Legends Sidious?

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    • I believe he’s baseline.

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    • Currently he’s above baseline for both keys

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    • Is there a specific value?

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:
      Excuse me does anyone know how far into 4-B is base Legends Sidious?

      i dont think we have a calc for it, tbh. isnt he there cuz of statements? a calc can be done tho

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    • Not that I know

      He just upscales vastly from Vitiate (whom in turn scales above the baseline Valley of the Jedi) and Wutzek (who is baseline)

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    • He shouldn't even scale to Wutzek, to be honest. He'd still be above baseline, though, especially since he's at his strongest in Return of the Jedi.

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    • I vaguely recall someone mentioning a Kilofoe calculation via "Shaking the stars".

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    • And he’s even stronger in Dark Empire

      Think he could be upgraded for galactic shockwaves tho

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    • (Never mind those are brought up)

      But do we have a calf for his Plagueis feat?

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    • The funny thing is, Sidious kinda has his own feat of making stars shake and constellations realign after killing Plagueis.

      I don't know why that isn't calc'd, but yeah.

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    • yeah no, he aint stronger than quite a good few NJO villains lol

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    • @Eficiente How powerful were the fodder Jedi Jango Fett fought?

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    • @Lepnyr ninja

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: @Eficiente How powerful were the fodder Jedi Jango Fett fought?

      They could reflect blaster bolts, Jango told his Mandalorian team to switch to h2h due to it. The way Dooku tolk about Komari Vosa (at the end of the battle iirc) made it seen like she was more than a fodder, I let that up to interpretation. She could also reflect blaster bolts.

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    • I suppose "Relativistic" seems fine since she could reflect blaster bolts.

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    • vosa? i heard that name before. pretty sure she aint fodder whatsoever. may have been a strong jedi, iirc

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    • The TROS comic is out in June

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    • Also is the novel out yet?

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    • March 17 I believe

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: I suppose "Relativistic" seems fine since she could reflect blaster bolts.

      One of the clones actually dodged blaster fire after Ki-Adi-Mundi deflected them back in Order 66, so it makes sense I guess.

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    • bump

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    • Hmmn actually the clone that dodged blaster fire deflected back by Ki-Adi-Mundi would be FTL.

      0.8820085580265042/299792458 = 0.0000000029420638662 s, FTL reactions

      Outlier?

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    • That reminds me

      Should some of the more major blaster blocks be calculated?

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:

      Outlier?

      Yes.

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    • Relativistic seems better imo

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    • so what exatcly has been agreed upon as of now that can be applied?

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    • We still have to discuss Jango Fett Legends speed and the lightsaber stuff, both which seems to be divisive.

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    • can u summarize what we have as of now? on both of them?

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    • For Jango Fett, we're just discussing whether him being Relativistic is an outlier or not.

      For lightsabers, well firstly some people think that the AP of lightsabers do not depend on the users while others disagree. The second issue is that we're also thinking about how to put lightsabers on the character's profiles, since our current wording seems like they negate durability or something which is weird.

      ByAsura says he'll try to think of something suitable to put on the profiles, but it seems that he hasn't had any luck yet.

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    • it is, but we can put both his outlier rating, and an unknown one and explain that he varies. just like lobo.

      they dont depend on the user, but its stated that force users can literally make their sabers stronger by using the force, iirc. as for the second part, its a sword. its tier 100% depends on it being used. hell, if a duelist drops their saber, it shuts down. i dont think giving it a rating would be wise tbh.

      ok. tell me what he says later

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    • A bit off topic but TROS Novelization states TROS Palpy was a clone

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    • was just about to post this LMFAO

      yeah Clone Body with the Originals Spirit, which means body hopping I guess.

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    • Does the novel say that he grew stronger or weaker?

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    • his semi dead body was weaker, but after he absorbs some of rey and kylo, he grows stronger

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    • Was it stated in the novel, or is it just based on feats?

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    • i think i saw a tweet about it from someone on charge

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    • That makes sense but can you link the tweet?

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    • yes. lemme find it

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    • So what do we rate Sidious before his death

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    • "possibly 6C" maybe

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    • I’d say we should wait for the novel before we revise Sidious

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    • CAn someone ban him

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    • The novel retcons that Palpatine didn't lift all the Star Destroyers when he was weakened. Instead he shows Kylo a vision of his entire fleet. So RIP.

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    • doesn't he scale to stopping the rebel feat tho

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote: So what do we rate Sidious before his death

      You mean in ROTJ or TROS?

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    • KLOL506 wrote: doesn't he scale to stopping the rebel feat tho

      Yeah, we might upgrade him to 6-B, but downgrade his past version to at least 7-A (significantly superior to Vader) since TROS Palpatine seems to have much better feats.

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    • Before TROS

      @Matt do you have an excerpt for that?

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    • @Hellbeast1 Probably at least 7-A for being superior to Vader unless there are better feats.

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    • Anyway we should try to conclude this thread before Lorenzo makes his CRT.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:

      Yeah, we might upgrade him to 6-B, but downgrade his past version to at least 7-A (significantly superior to Vader) since TROS Palpatine seems to have much better feats.

      He isn't stronger than his Peak Version in TROS. He was explicitely restored to the peak of his power.

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote:
      Before TROS

      @Matt do you have an excerpt for that?

      Apparently, it's here.

      Most specifically, in the following excerpt: but before he could react, his surroundings disappeared as if into a fog, and a vision filled their place.

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    • Shadowbokunohero wrote:
      was just about to post this LMFAO

      yeah Clone Body with the Originals Spirit, which means body hopping I guess.

      Now where have I read this before?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:

      Yeah, we might upgrade him to 6-B, but downgrade his past version to at least 7-A (significantly superior to Vader) since TROS Palpatine seems to have much better feats.

      He isn't stronger than his Peak Version in TROS. He was explicitely restored to the peak of his power.

      Quote?

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    • Anyway I'd appreciate if everyone focus on concluding the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff for now, as there are likely going to be multiple huge Star Wars CRTs in the future.

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    • bump

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    • bump

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    • 6-B Palpatine comes from the unlimited power at the Fleet not the lifting the ships thing.

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:

      Quote?

      He outright says "And now the power of two restores the one." when he absorbs Rey and Kylo's Lifeforce. He doesn't say "empowers the one."

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    • Fair enough.

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    • Does anyone know which end of this calc was accepted?

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    • i do not. sorry

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    • Well, using the low-end of 111.67 gigatons. Since the Resurgent-class Star Destroyer can take hundreds of shots by more powerful turbo laser shots than the outdated XX-9 heavy turbo laser, assuming 200 shots to low-ball it, it's durability is at least 22.334 teratons. Which means the MC85 Star Cruiser is far superior to 22.334 teratons.

      And Palpatine disabled the entire New Republic fleet, which has 16 000 ships.

      So low-end, if he only disabled one shield, it's still 22.334 teratons, Country level

      Assuming 100 of them have shields, it's far higher than 2.2334 petatons, or Continent level.

      Assuming 200 of them have shields, it's 4.4648 petatons, Multi-Continent level

      Country level is an extreme low-ball.

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    • Is that how we do that scaling?

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    • Isn't that why we get 6-B in the first place? Because the forcefields can take hundreds of shots?

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    • I thought it was because there were dozens of ships

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    • Well Palptine scales to the MC85 Star Cruiser, which scales to the Resurgent-class Star Destroyer, which has 6-B shields for being "Far superior to the likes of the old Imperial I and Imperiall II-line thanks to a more advanced and powerful hypermatter reactor. Should be more than capable of taking an all batteries barrage from a ship with comparable destructive output, which would mean hundreds of heavy turbolaser shots with greater yields than the likes of the now outdated XX-9 heavy turbolaser".

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    • Yeah so he’s 6-B because the ships shields are 6-B

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    • Yes, but the ship's shield scales to "hundreds of heavy turbo laser shots" that upscale from the XX-9 heavy turbolaser which was calculated to be 111.67 gigatons. Low-balling "hundreds" is 200, the shields would be 22.334 teratons, which is why we rate them as Country level. And Palpatine destroyed hundreds of these 22.334 teraton durability shields.

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    • How many hundreds are we talking about

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    • You mean how many shots can the shields tank or how many shields Palpatine destroyed?

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    • The number of shields Palpatine rekt

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    • UNLIMITED

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    • KLOL506 wrote: The number of shields Palpatine rekt

      There were 16 000 ships, it was confirmed most have shields.

      Even if we assume he just rekt 100 ships' shields it's already Continent level.

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    • EDIT: NVM I FUCKED UP IN MATH

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    • I suggest At least 6-B Possibly Far Higher

      If thats okay

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    • I agree, but again I want to try to conclude the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff before the forum move.

      EDIT: It might be fine to apply 6-B to Sidious, Yoda and Windu before we make that huge Star Wars CRT, cuz that seems relatively simple.

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    • bump

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    • Wait for the Novelization.

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    • What do you think about the Jango Fett and lightsaber stuff?

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    • Read the Novelization, enjoy ited but Jesus do they keep butchering Rey's parentage.

      Also Palpatine is amped by all the Sith in TROS

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    • Marvelous, that could mean he only scales to Rey. What's the exact exert, by the way?

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    • Excellent, can you quote that?

      EDIT: Although was he amped by all the Sith throughout the whole movie, or just the final battle?

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    • Also I heard someone said that Palpatine teleported his soul away when falling down the shaft, so we cannot scale his durability to the Death Star explosion.

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    • Why would he be amped by all the Sith?

      He’s clearly crippled in ROS and he has all the Sith then

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    • So he's only amped by all the Sith when he fought with Rey?

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    • He’s not amped by the Sith to my knowledge

      He mentions needing the Dyad to be restored to what I assume is his previous power

      We’d need scans from the book to see what we get tho

      Can guarantee man gets hax tho

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    • Apparently Shadow says the novel says so

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    • Sorry busy at work atm

      but page 223 for future reference in CRT.

      "Unseen for Generations,' He crowed.and "And now the power of two restores the one true Emperor!" He raised his perfect, healed hands and called on all the dark power of the force and the Sith who had come before him and pulled their life from their very bodies.

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    • Except that still doesn’t mean he’s amped

      He draws on them to do the drain which is explicitly hax and he still mentions being restored to his prior power

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    • I suppose that wouldn’t necessarily mean he was amped from his usual level in Return of the Jedi.

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    • I guess it probably means he was originally weak, but after taking the power then he's amped back to his original level.

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    • Since I was told to comment about this here.

      Imperial-class Star Destroyer's Country level durability is wild abuse of multiplier standards.

      • Tanking hundreds of bullets doesn't mean your durability is equal to 200x the AP of the bullets. Characters can basically be immune to weaker attacks at far lower multipliers.
      • By this logic, tanking 100 punches would make you 9-B.
      • The multipliers page says that multipliers need to be explicit, this is nowhere near explicit enough for a multiplier.
      • The multipliers page says that multipliers in the hundreds need to have either huge plot relevance or supporting feats, as far as I can tell, this multiplier has neither.

      So its durability should be downgraded, along with any other Star Wars ships that scale or have similar multipliers.

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    • As I have discussed on Discord, that is a good point. The shields should be downgraded to High 6-C.

      This potentially affects the Canon Palpatine upgrades and Legends Vader downgrades too.

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    • I agree. Star Wars ships also have multiple sections of shielding (port, starboard and stern) which can be pierced with concentrated fire from vessels of similar firepower. Even an Executor took minimal damage from a Starhawk's weapons, which are roughtly comparable to Star Destroyers, before using extra power to account for it.

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    • So Canon Palpatine would be "At least High 6-C, likely far higher", while Legends Starkiller powering the cannon would be "6-C" since turbolasers are just a bit above baseline High 6-C and he charged the cannon over-time.

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    • It should still be superior to what a Star Destroyer can normally output. It takes a lot to pierce their shields and this did it in one blow, completely tearing apart the ship.

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    • So High 6-C Starkiller it is ig.

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    • Maybe we should discuss this in my message wall.

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    • Ok. So things to conclude in this thread:

      • Jango Fett upgrade to Relativistic
      • The Lightsaber profile
      • Downgrading ship shields to High 6-C
      • Maybe upgrade Palpatine to High 6-C, although probably we should wait for another thread
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    • I find this notion of Sidious always being as powerful as in the last movie to be ridiculous.

      • He shows a feat way above anything shown before.
      • The older a Force user becomes the more their knowledge, experience, etc. on the Force grows and the more powerful in it they become. While their regular physicality gets weaker.
      Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote:
      He outright says "And now the power of two restores the one." when he absorbs Rey and Kylo's Lifeforce. He doesn't say "empowers the one."

      The dude was like a zombie and that needed to be fixed, if he made himself more powerful or not then that's irrelevant, he was restored, he didn't lie. It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body, or he could use it & he just didn't show it. And by "entirely possible" I actually meant that's most likely the case as to claim that he was just always as powerful is a baseless assumption.

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    • And that's without even talking about he was now "all the Sith", what is even the headcanon we have on that to fit this notion of him being always this powerful?

      • A. That somehow doesn't make him more powerful than before. Or
      • B. He was somehow always all the Sith. Or
      • C. He's just exaggerating and being all the Sith is not a big deal.
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    • It probably makes more sense scaling-wise if this were an amp.

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    • All the Sith is clearly just acretcon of the Rule of Two’s ms habits

      Secondly other then the feat what proof is there Palpatine gained greater power then the Old Trilogy

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    • The proof is not being bias. I don't need to show proof of him gaining greater power, that is the most reasonable assumption to make. I even pointed out the why ("The older a Force user becomes the more their knowledge, experience, etc. on the Force grows and the more powerful in it they become. While their regular physicality gets weaker.")

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote: All the Sith is clearly just acretcon of the Rule of Two’s ms habits

      In other words

      Eficiente wrote: *C. He's just exaggerating and being all the Sith is not a big deal.

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    • Well, I'm conflicted on this. On one side he does have a much better feat, but it's never stated he grew stronger at all.

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    • Where did I claim your biased Ef?

      Secondly you’re making a claim that Palpatine is outright stronger so yeah you should probably give some evidence

      Just saying “oh he never does big feat like that” doesn’t cut it for a character who we rate mostly based on upscaling to practically everyone in the verse

      Secondly the argument “oh he’s older now so he’s stronger” doesn’t hold up when he is crippled beyond belief in this film and outright says he needs the Dyad to restore him

      That’s also ignoring the statement in the novel his Clone body is imperfect and unable to contain the power of the Dark Side

      Thirdly how is my claiming it’s a retcon of the Rule of Two anything remotely like saying he’s exaggerating?

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    • It is a good point that Palpatine lacks feats showing his full power aside from the High 6-C feat.

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    • @Hellbeast1 I didn't say that you claimed me to be bias, I implied you were because I find your arguments so fallacious that no reasonable user should come up with them. Of all your last comment I see nothing that would challenge my proposal, only a lot of stuff to reply to.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Secondly you’re making a claim that Palpatine is outright stronger so yeah you should probably give some evidence

      No, I do not. The ones saying that he was always as strong should give the evidence.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Just saying “oh he never does big feat like that” doesn’t cut it for a character who we rate mostly based on upscaling to practically everyone in the verse

      What a contrived way to portray the logic of "New feat=Character most likely wasn't as strong before unless proven". The second stuff there I feel like you just put it to occupy space and make you stuff look bigger & better, why? Because it doesn't matter at all.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Secondly the argument “oh he’s older now so he’s stronger” doesn’t hold up when he is crippled beyond belief in this film and outright says he needs the Dyad to restore him

      This is just being ignorant to what I said; "The older a Force user becomes the more their knowledge, experience, etc. on the Force grows and the more powerful in it they become. While their regular physicality gets weaker." & "The dude was like a zombie and that needed to be fixed, if he made himself more powerful or not then that's irrelevant, he was restored, he didn't lie. It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body, or he could use it & he just didn't show it."

      Hellbeast1 wrote: That’s also ignoring the statement in the novel his Clone body is imperfect and unable to contain the power of the Dark Side

      This fits what I said, if anything. Again, you are being ignorant of it; "It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body" & " And by "entirely possible" I actually meant that's most likely the case as to claim that he was just always as powerful is a baseless assumption."

      If it needs to be said then "more power"=/="more physical power", he didn't go to a gym.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Thirdly how is my claiming it’s a retcon of the Rule of Two anything remotely like saying he’s exaggerating?

      If you didn't notice, I anticipated the headcanons that would come to justicy the "all the Sith" stuff to not add any new power to him, you took option C. If the all the Sith was less poetic than what you claim it is, which makes perfect sense in context, then suddenly it is an amp. He was the most powerful Sith, now he's all the Sith, and he's fighting a character whose all the Jedi in the sense that she got amped by at least some of them. Hmmmmm, I wonder if the "all the Sith" thing was an amp, I guess we cannot just say that it was an amp because there is no evidence of it now can't we? This is sarcasm, the answer to that is what follows common sense.

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    • I’ll be replying to this late but let me assure you there is so much wrong here with this comment

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    • Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan wrote: There's a thread discussing whether multiplier for destroying multiple objects is allowed, so the Palpatine upgrades will have to wait.

      It looks like the current standard for this is that a multiplier for destroying multiple objects isn't allowed.

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    • Yeah, it seems so.

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    • @Ef firstly mind that attitude. Claiming I'm biased is a serious accusation you may not want to throw out there immediately with especially when there is no indication of my supposed bias. Though since you are the same bloke who threatened to resign in order to stonewall revisions I'm not surprised

      Just makes you look like a dick frankly when coupled with your other assertions on my character

      Secondly if you read my comments prior to this you'd see the evidence I've posted in support of my point but since you seem to need a little help:

      1)  Palpatine saying that the Dyad restores him (Note the crackling lightning that emerges at his fingertips when he gets the first taste)

      2)  This is corroborated in a scan Shadow provided above from the novelisation

      3) This video contains a scan from the novelisation which mentions Sheev's body is an "imperfect vessel" and that it "couldn't last much longer", sustained only by vials "fighting a losing battle to preserve the putrid flesh"

      4) Adding to this point, Palpatine's clone is deemed "painful", "a temporary one", "not enough", "broken" and outright "dying" with the Sith Eternal constantly toiling in creating bodies that might be a worthy cradle or recepticle (Hence the creation of Snoke) with nothing actually working

      5) This video shows an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid who claims his scene with Kylo had the line "More then a clone, less then a man" which reinforces Palpatine is significantly lesser then he once was during this period

      6) This is further reinforced when Ian mentions the character's great frustration is that he can't call upon his power and that his journey in the film is getting back to that (Hell he even mentions he can't even summon Force Lightning through his fingers)

      Now you may have issue with me using Mcdiarmid as a source but his comments I think illustrate the intent of the filmmakers in portraying Palpatine as this broken figure and it's consistent with all we know of the phantom emperor

      So you've seen the evidence I've brought for Palpatine being considerably weaker in this film and you know what's funny about my reasearch?

      Not a single fucking shred of evidence Palpatine, despite being grieviously damaged and trapped within a body that is barely hanging on to life, gained any considerable power offscreen after his revival in the way you claim.

      This isn't like Dark Empire where Palpatine's bodies don't last long but he has measurable feats and statements that he is above his prior state. This is a character barely hanging onto life by usage of advanced technology with the endgame of possessing a worthy host.

      Palpatine's damaged body does not "prove your point" because this is incomparable to a Force User's body deteriorating with age. This, if anything, is closer to Anakin's wounds at Mustafar where he noticeably lost his full potential in the Force

      To make such a baseless claim as him getting stronger  is being outright ignorant of the circumstances within the film and novelisation and honestly ridiculous for any user to actually engage in.

      Also if anything is contrived in this conversation it is you arguing that despite having brought no evidence of your claims, you think Palaptine just grew stronger offscreen, totally ignoring the blatant evidence to the contrary by hiding behind refutations that are substantially nothing

      TLDR: Sheev is not stronger in ROS, to say otherwise is ignorance and if you mean to say he's stronger offscreen actually prove it

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    • (Sorry if it's long and messy, just got off work)

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    • Since I don't have much to say on most of these revisions I'll unfollow. Let me know if anything else for me to comment on comes up.

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    • Will do

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    • Hellbeast1 wrote:
      @Ef firstly mind that attitude. Claiming I'm biased is a serious accusation you may not want to throw out there immediately with especially when there is no indication of my supposed bias. Though since you are the same bloke who threatened to resign in order to stonewall revisions I'm not surprised

      No I'm good calling you bias, this is given your fallacious arguments and your way to ignore what I say to keep pointing out stuff that does nothing as what you ignored already acknowledges that. What's more in parts you are also acting like a rat too, I didn't threaten to resign in order to stonewall revisions, I thought the revisions were done, little care was put into them and I didn't want to contribute the wiki in something that relevant being illogical+how I considered that something that wrong would be changed eventually be changed anyway but damage the wiki in the time it lasts, it was an integrity thing that I would have still done even if I got paid for doing what I do. I explained the situation better where I brought it but, in character for you, you ignored it. But why do you even bring this up here? I was already considering rat-ish how you warped the "New feat=Character most likely wasn't as strong before unless proven"-logic into "oh he never does big feat like that", but this just beats it.

      You do not need to warp things to make yours look better, you need to be responsible, pay attention and respond to things properly.

      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      1)  Palpatine saying that the Dyad restores him (Note the crackling lightning that emerges at his fingertips when he gets the first taste)

      2)  This is corroborated in a scan Shadow provided above from the novelisation

      3) This video contains a scan from the novelisation which mentions Sheev's body is an "imperfect vessel" and that it "couldn't last much longer", sustained only by vials "fighting a losing battle to preserve the putrid flesh"

      4) Adding to this point, Palpatine's clone is deemed "painful", "a temporary one", "not enough", "broken" and outright "dying" with the Sith Eternal constantly toiling in creating bodies that might be a worthy cradle or recepticle (Hence the creation of Snoke) with nothing actually working

      5) This video shows an interview with Ian Mcdiarmid who claims his scene with Kylo had the line "More then a clone, less then a man" which reinforces Palpatine is significantly lesser then he once was during this period

      6) This is further reinforced when Ian mentions the character's great frustration is that he can't call upon his power and that his journey in the film is getting back to that (Hell he even mentions he can't even summon Force Lightning through his fingers)

      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      So you've seen the evidence I've brought for Palpatine being considerably weaker in this film and you know what's funny about my reasearch?

      Not a single fucking shred of evidence Palpatine, despite being grieviously damaged and trapped within a body that is barely hanging on to life, gained any considerable power offscreen after his revival in the way you claim.

      This isn't like Dark Empire where Palpatine's bodies don't last long but he has measurable feats and statements that he is above his prior state. This is a character barely hanging onto life by usage of advanced technology with the endgame of possessing a worthy host.

      Palpatine's damaged body does not "prove your point" because this is incomparable to a Force User's body deteriorating with age.

      Yeah I already know, hence the "It is entirely possible for him to have gained further power after being revived and not being able to use it due to his deteriorated body" & "If it needs to be said then "more power"=/="more physical power", he didn't go to a gym"

      I recognized he got weaker and that he may not be able to use his full power before, but that doesn't mean that full power is the same as the old one he had as he never showed anything like hat before.

      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      This, if anything, is closer to Anakin's wounds at Mustafar where he noticeably lost his full potential in the Force

      If the logistics of the verse were super consistent then this would matter, but, let's say that it does, canon Vader got stronger than Anakin and so should Sidious with his body fixed using that logic.

      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      To make such a baseless claim as him getting stronger  is being outright ignorant of the circumstances within the film and novelisation and honestly ridiculous for any user to actually engage in.
      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      you think Palaptine just grew stronger offscreen, totally ignoring the blatant evidence to the contrary by hiding behind refutations that are substantially nothing

      TLDR: Sheev is not stronger in ROS, to say otherwise is ignorance and if you mean to say he's stronger offscreen actually prove it

      No, you are using leaps in logic to claim that he couldn't get stronger, when he could, and thus he did. Also things like "just grew stronger offscreen" are kinda funny given that...that is something that happens, a lot.

      Hellbeast1 wrote:
      Also if anything is contrived in this conversation it is you arguing that despite having brought no evidence of your claims

      I'm not the one that needs the evidence to say that he was always as powerful, if that needed to be said.

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    • Firstly how am I the one acting like a rat

      You’re the one who started by calling me biased and totally unreasonable

      Secondly you are still ignoring my evidence because of course him growing stronger despite no evidence makes complete sense

      I have seriously provided three links to prove my point do I think I’ve provided evidence he’s weaker thanks

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    • Furthermore I have responded to your points without warping anything despite your assertion to the contrary

      It is you who continue to claim he’s had the potential to grow stronger and then used said potential to grow sttpnger despite the what, four sources provided?

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    • This is just argument from incredulity, smh.

      >Sidious, the most powerful Sith in either continuity, shows a feat above everyone else

      >People don't believe he can be that powerful and try to come up with excuses.

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    • Hellbeast1
      Hellbeast1 removed this reply because:
      Unnecessary
      13:06, March 10, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Btw it was said that Canon Vader lost his 20 000+ midichlorian Force potential, but that only means his potential is weaker than Anakin, not that his power is. Anyway it's no related to this Palpatine discussion.

      It should also be noted that Canon Palpatine lacks feats in the Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy, and so far there isn't any proof he grew stronger at all. So this feat isn't necessarily contradicted by past feats, considering the only thing we know is that he's superior to Vader, scales to Yoda and Windu (who scale to him), that's literally all.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      This is just argument from incredulity, smh.

      >Sidious, the most powerful Sith in either continuity, shows a feat above everyone else

      >People don't believe he can be that powerful and try to come up with excuses.

      Please do come up with something better than this, I'm tired of talking with Hellbeast1. What am I supposed to do with your comment? If I made a non serious comment I wouldn't much care about a serious response to it and I would just reply with the serious comment I should have done in the first place, with my real thoughts on the matter.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Firstly how am I the one acting like a rat

      You’re the one who started by calling me biased and totally unreasonable

      Common misconception from certain group of people, criticism that may offend doesn't just exist in a vacuum. I said that you were acting like a rat for bringing a topic that had nothing to do with this one, and I called you bias because of your arguments and ignoring wha I said. I could categorize the quote from you above and say what I think of it but then you would just take that I said mean things to you, so

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Secondly you are still ignoring my evidence because of course him growing stronger despite no evidence makes complete sense

      I have seriously provided three links to prove my point do I think I’ve provided evidence he’s weaker thanks

      You are the one ignoring the evidence here, I saw your evidence, I quoted it and I pointed out why it was invalid to the matter. What I pointed out is not me ignoring your evidence, is responding to it.

      Hellbeast1 wrote: Furthermore I have responded to your points without warping anything despite your assertion to the contrary

      It is you who continue to claim he’s had the potential to grow stronger and then used said potential to grow sttpnger despite the what, four sources provided?

      Many thing were warped but there is no point in showing them, the ones who read will know.

      The sources just prove that he's weaker and can't use his full power, which I already imagined was going to be the case before you even showed them and has nothing to do with what I'm saying. He could have still become more powerful in the Force without being able to use said power. This only needs 2 things to happen 1. Him not being able to use his powers, which we know is the case and 2. Him still being able to become more powerful regardless, which is also the case because this is SW and knowledge, meditating and sheer pragmatism over the Force makes one more powerful over it, heck just doing nothing does the same if you already have power (Not even talking about Rey).

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    • Cool argument

      You still have brought no evidence of your claims and somehow act as if you’re entitled not to

      And I’m not the only one who’s bloody sick of it mate

      So frankly either contribute a shred of evidence to your claims or stop wasting everyone’s time with your frankly pathetic reasoning

      Honestly surprised something so simple needs to be communicated to a staff member

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