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  • I want to start this off by saying that I know their is another CRT but it is dead and I think these additions are quite important regarding to matches that the subjects are frequently involved in, so I decided its best to get this over and done with. This is also why other additions for the Creation Trio will not be included, so that the discussion and subsequent approval/denial can happen quicker.

    Lastly I would also like it if the discussion had no derailing, such as how this affects current and future matches, how this effects the Top 5 Strongest thread, the composite nature of Pokémon, how this allows them the beat certain verses, and other stuff of that nature, I just want this to be a discussion about the bellow mentioned additions and if they are accepted or denied.

    In the beginning, there was only a churning turmoil of Chaos

    At the heart of chaos, where all things became one, appeared an Egg.
    Having tumbled from the vortex, the Egg gave rise to the Original One.
    From itself, two beings the Original One did make.
    Time started to spin. Space began to expand.
    From itself again, three living things the Original One did make.
    The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.
    The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.

    The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...

    This, as some people no doubt know by now, is a tale about the Creation of the Pokémon World. It will be the primary source of all proposed additions of this CRT. Also anything that mentioned the duo also involved Giratina, its just he isn't mentioned in the myth so I didn't talk about him while referencing it.

    Type 2 Concepts

    First things first, from my understanding, the difference between Type 3 and Type 2 Concepts is that while both are Abstract in nature Type 3 are linked together with the physical form of their concept, thus even if you can't interact with the Type 3 Concept of Space you can still destroy it by destroying the physical Multiverse it governs.

    The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be.

    I believe this points towards the Concepts of Space and Time, that were born when Palkia and Dialga were created, predating the existence, this is because the above text clearly states the pair, who are the mentioned two beings, actively created the physical world. This means that Concepts of Space and Time existed before the Multiverse and so even if you destroyed the Pokémon Mutliverse, and thus all things that carry a aspect of Space and Time, the Concepts would still exist after as they existed before, and so to would the pair that embody those Concepts.

    The world created, the Original One took to unyielding sleep...

    I also think this line being after the Original One created the duo and after they wished matter into being could be additional proof that Arceus only created the pair and they created the World after the Concepts had already existed.

    Accepted:

    Rejected: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1, Executor N0, Lavtop, EmperorRorepme, GyroNutz, The Causality, Adem Warlock69, Zeifyl, The Axiom of Virgo

    Immunity to Soul Manipulation

    The three living things wished, and from them, spirit came to be.

    I understand that the Creation Trio did in fact have this ability once and it was removed, but I disagree with the removal. First off their was questions of if Spirit did in fact equal Souls, I think this can be answered by who created Spirit, with the three living things being Uxie, Azelf, and Mespirit, who embody Knowledge, Willpower, and Emotions. With this knowledge its likely to assume that the Spirit is a immaterial object that all living things have that gives them these three aspects, and at this point their is little difference between a Spirit and what we assume a Soul is.

    Another argument against the Immunity of Souls is that the Lake Guardians gave the duo Spirits after the fact, their is not only no proof of this but I believe that their is proof against this. This proof being Cyrus' plan, Cyprus planned to remove the world of Spirit because he hated it, thus he planned to have one or both of the two destroy then recreate the universe as a world without Spirit, this destruction was very likely to not affect the pair so how could he have a world without Spirit if Dialga and Palkia existed with a Spirit. Also the Lake Guardian aren't the only ones shown to control Palkia and Dialga, the Red Chain which was created from the Lake Guardians is also able to, its logical to assume the same power which freed them from the Red Chain was what was used to create it. I very much doubt that Cryus would use the Red Chain if it operated through Spirit and I doubt controlling Spirit would be able to forcefully summon the duo.

    Accepted: Adem Warlock69, The God of Procrastination, ProfessorKukui4Life, GyroNutz, Niarobi (Formerly Hadou), Dragopentling, The real cal howard, Rose of Ragnarok, PlozAlcachaz, Zeifyl, Overlord775, The Axiom of Virgo, Mr. Bambu, ZephyrosOmega

    Neutral: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1

    Rejected:

    Abstract Existence Type 1

    This is simple, as mentioned before the pair existed before Matter, thus their true selves have no physical or spiritual form. They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract.

    Accepted: Adem Warlock69, Niarobi (Formerly Hadou), The real cal howard, Dragopentling, PlozAlcachaz, Overlord775, The Axiom of Virgo, WHYNAUT, StrymULTRA, Luckyfun, ZephyrosOmega

    Neutral: Elizhaa, TriforcePower1, ProfessorKukui4Life, Rose of Ragnarok, NeoZex6399, DarkDragonMedeus

    Rejected: PaChi2, Kepekley23, Sigurd Snake in The Eye, Mr. Bambu

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    • I agree with everything for now

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    • I'll respond to this later

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    • I agree with the second part. Even if they were given spirit, they may not need it.

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    • Nothing here looks to show conceptual manipulation type 2, to me; just predating a concept is not enough evidence to prove Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. I disagreed on Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 for now. I am neutral on Abstract Existence Type 1; they did have it but it was changed to Type 3 here and now Type 3 Abstract Existence no longer exists. Immunity to Soul Manipulation was removed here; I am neutral on it.

      Updated: I fixed a link a some stuffs.

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    • Elizhaa wrote: Nothing here looks to shown conceptual manipulation type 2, to me; just predating a concept is not enough evidence to prove Conceptual Manipulation Type 2. I disagreed on Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 for now. I am neutral on Abstract Existence Type 1; they did have it but it was changed to Type 3 here and now Type 3 Abstract Existence no longer exists. Immunity to Soul Manipulation was removed here; I am neutral on it.

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    • @Elizhaa

      It's not because they precede a concept, it's because they procede reality itself

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    • Messing with time (non conceptual time) turned Dialga into Primal Dialga.

      AE type 1 its not.

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    • The tower of time thing is directly contradicted by the main games where Dialga's heathbeat is what makes time flow

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    • Mythos dont beat "feats" or showings in my book, Im afraid.

      Even in a pokedex.

      The justification in the OP is bad for AE1, anyway.

      "They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract"

      This needs proof. Like, actual proof. "They embody time and space and therefore you need to affect the concept of time and space" is bad reasoning.

      Heck, Giratina can grab them no problem and the multiverse doesnt implode.

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    • Overlord775 wrote: @Elizhaa

      It's not because they precede a concept, it's because they procede reality itself

      Oh, I don't think it is enough to prove Conceptual Manipulation Type 2 either.

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    • @Pachi

      Not when it's repeatedly and repeatedly stated to work in a way

      Also:

      1. Giratina is the embodiment of the concept of antimatter

      2. He grabbed on-to their physical forms

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    • Giratina grabs their Avatar, its the same as with Arceus and its Abstract Existence despite its Avatars showing in the manga and anime. And as mentioned in the text above that we very much use for other abilities, their true forms predate Matter.

      And I thought the difference between Type 3 and Type 2 is that Type 3 it linked to everything that takes part in the Concept so if you destroyed the multiverse you would destroy the Concept of Space, but the Creation Trio, and thus their Concepts that came forth at the same time as them, predate and created the rest of existence so destroying everything shouldn't affect the Concepts as they existed without everything before so they should do again.

      Also this isn't from the Pokédex.

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    • I think there's a bit of a mistakes about that."Predates Reality" is not really enough reason to have Type 2 CM. The whole point of Type 2 CM is the ability to control some metaphysical universal structure that exists beyond the physical realm, our normal level of existence.

      Just being prior to reality is not really a reason for that. It may help to justify Type 2, but it can't be the main basis. Even a franchise with multiple plans of existence having been created simultaneously can have Type 2 CM if the nature between the levels of reality guarantees it.

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    • That isn’t enough for type 2 I don’t know about the rest

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    • wasn't everything here debunked and removed from the profiles already?

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    • Im neutral to most of this, but the immunity to soul manipulation needs to be added back. 

      The Creation Trio predate the existence and creation of the lake trio, who created spirit. That means when the CT came, there wasnt any spirit to begin with for them. There's absolutely no reason or basis to assume that the Lake Trio just suddenly slapped on spirits to all 3 of them. Especially since the Lake Trio explicitly need to be combined to affect even one member of the CT at all. Suggesting they were able to, for whatever reason you can think of, give all 3 of them souls is purely speculative and completely contradicts their standing in comparison to the CT.

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    • Even if they Gave them Souls, they would stil have Resistance to Soul manipulation,As they don't need those Souls, So if Someone destroys their Soul, nothing would happen.

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    • I disagree with Type 2 Concepts.

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    • I think this comes from a previous CRT where Kep said for a concept to be type 2, it has to predate all reality by default. There'd need to be more solid evidence to make the jump to type 2 conceptual manipulation.

      Although I 100% agree with the soul resistance, if they didn't already have it.

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    • Looking at the thread Elizhaa linked, I can't exactly tell why they don't have Abstract Existence Type 1. Does anyone know why it was changed?

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    • Everything12 wrote:
      Looking at the thread Elizhaa linked, I can't exactly tell why they don't have Abstract Existence Type 1. Does anyone know why it was changed?

      Oh, wrong link, my bad; I updated it.

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    • Yeah, this is one of thread I meant to link earlier and just recently linked.

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    • Neutral towards type 2 conceptual manipulation, and the latter two proposed things look fine.

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    • I think the part of my thread talking about predating and wishing Matter into being disproves the reason why the Abstract Existence was taking away, as it proves both them and their Concepts don't need the physical world to continue existing.

      And if they don't have a physical or spiritual form, as they predate both Matter and Spirit, then their only form back then would be the Concepts they brought into creation and from which they gain their Large Size and Nigh-Omniprescence.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • "Also, if we assume Type 1 is a thing, while Dialga and Palkia might not be killed by having their physical avatars killed, it's important to note that even then you wouldn't need to mess with the concepts of time and space to kill them. Their avatars' destruction would lead to the world getting unstable again and time and space merging. Arceus would need to intervene and split the concepts again in order for Dialga and Palkia to revive.

      So it's sort of a non-Type 1 Type 1 even if we assume it's the case, because you don't need to be able to mess with concepts to affect or kill them off. Meaning it's not Type 1."

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    • Said idea was debunked by their canonically being more than one avatar in existence. US/UM has Cyrus’s and the one in Ultra Space. Murdering an avatar doesn’t do crap to the true form.

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    • Where's this destroying their avatar leads to the destruction of Space-Time come from? As in where in the Games, Anime, or Manga is it from?

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    • Nowhere. In fact, in the manga, even having the smallest facet of Giratina allows you to come back from death.

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    • What it's explained in the OP isn't a feat of Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation as the other peoples are already said above.

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    • Wait, people are asking for them to have conceptual manipulation? No to that.

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    • Everything12 wrote:
       

      Type 2 Concepts

      Blablabla

      @Cal^

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    • No, I know that, I was more asking if predating the physical and spiritual aspects of existence meant that destroying them won't led to a chain reaction that destroys as is a characteristic of Type 3 so the Aspects that they embody and Arceus created should be Type 2 instead.

      I wasn't asking for Manipulation, besides Arceus, and more clarification of the Type of Concepts that they embody.

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    • Nope, the aspect will not change only due to that, you need feat of completly transcend the concept, Nil is still type 3 even if she predate her "concept"

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    • I mean it doesn't make sense to me that a Concept that was doing fine without the rest of existence before would be destroyed without it later, but whatever.

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      • I mean, what type are they right now? They should easily be type 1.
      • They have avatars and the avatars can exist alongside one another.
      • Capturing their physical forms still leaves their true selves intact and we see so.
      • Arceus creating a new one of the Trio involved him resetting a universe.
      • The only time any of them were close to death was Dialga and that directly involved messing with time itself to do anything.
      • Affecting their true selves through their avatars involves Arceus in some way or another.

      Sounds like type 1 to me.

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    • They are Type None as in Type 3 was axed so they don't have Abstract Existence.

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    • That’s dumb. Even the OBD has them as abstracts only capable of being destroyed through said abstractions, and we have the trio as much stronger than they have em.

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    • Also I have a question, which source mentioned the Space & Time they embody is the Conceptual one instead of the normal non-Conceptual Space & Time?

      I can't find any threads mentioning it and looking through all the different mentioned of them is like a needle in a haystack.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: The only time any of them were close to death was Dialga and that directly involved messing with time itself to do anything.

      You mean the Primal Dialga situation?

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    • Yeah.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      That’s dumb. Even the OBD has them as abstracts only capable of being destroyed through said abstractions, and we have the trio as much stronger than they have em.

      I think that the main problem is that some of the explanations for some of the arguments of "they aren't conceptual beings" are more a headcanon that makes sense, than something that is really confirmed. And this is worse when the very franchise doesn't make justice to these characters (Digimon suffers the same thing btw)

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    • Difference is DIgimon has several characters with abstract existence. Hell, Digimon are examples for both types.

      I’ve seen bigger leaps in logic to get conceptual shiz added. And everything I’ve shown has backing, and isn’t speculation. It’s actual feats without words. That’s not about Digimon, btw. That’s about the so-called others.

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    • Dialga mentions that he could see the state of the world while Primal Dialga was operating, so I don't think he was really close to death.

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    • I don't really have any problem with CT getting some type of AE or Conceptual Manipulation, at least by the info from the creation myths.

      The biggest problem is for things that we don't really have a explanation and the rest is simply "headcanon". By the myths, the CT are time, space and anti-matter, their very being are these metaphysical constructs from were all the matter comes from. The only problem is when they appears in battle, and they don't look like that.

      We explain that because of "avatars", but the turth is that this is in most part a headcanon that "makes sense". We know that Arceus created the CT before the world was created, and that Palkia was the creator of parallel dimensions, this is why he is the ruler of space and dimensions, and Dialga also works with other timelines, so we know that they are related to the multiverse. But the idea of "universal avatars" or something like that, is more of a headcanon to explain the big diference between the mythical and what we normally see.

      For me is just a case of GF doesn't giving a answer for these things and the idea of a "universal avatar" is the one that makes the most sense, and this is why we use it (At least it's based on the official theory about Arceus/The Original One creating physical avatars).

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    • ^I'm honestly agree with this.

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    • You’re right in that it makes the most sense, further supported by again, the canonical different Palkias/Dialgas we see in the same game, and their true existences still persisting after their physical forms getting captured.

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    • I’m in agreement with Immunity to Soul Manipulation and Type 1 AB for the CRT, cause enough subtle context is there in other lore as well.

      the type 2 concept evidence is too vague for me, but I’ll stay neutral for that one.

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    • I don't think I still agree with type 2 concept, but I still agree with Soul manipulation immunity and Type 1 Abstract existance

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    • Wait why shouldn’t they have type 2 conceptual manipulation?

      “ 2. False Platonic Concept: Such concepts, or forms, are mostly transcendent of reality. These concepts shape all of reality and whatever level that reality exists in, and everything in reality "participates" in these concepts. These concepts interact with their objects in the same manner as listed above. In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept on whatever scale has been shown.”

      Pretty sure everything participates in time and space, and Dialga’s descent straight up caused time to stop. Even with the lake trio, hurting Mesprit, the concept of emotion, makes you lose emotion altogether. And the lake trio embody the very thing they created. Cyrus’s goal to get rid of all emotion across all of reality in his new universe involved using them as a proxy for his Red Chain. Pretty sure their “older brothers” don’t have a different existence to them. Furthermore, they predate their concepts, and in Cyrus’s new world, nothing implies that they died, so they exist after too.

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    • Thats all something Type 3 can do. The difference between Type 2 and Type 3 is that, Type 2 transcends reality while Type 3 is connected to it in such a way that destroying all of the things that partake in the Concept also destroys the Concept through a chain reaction.

      Both Types would involve that damaging or destroying a Concept would interrupts everything's else ability to show that concept, but Type 3 would have it so that destroying everything that feels Emotion would destroy Emotion and Mespirit without having to interact with it or it's Concpet

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    • Edited my above comment. In Cyrus’s new world, nothing implied that the Lake Trio died, and given he completed his goal, his world lacks emotion. And Dialga still existed within permanently stopped time, albeit corrupted. Giratina too. It’s shown through Lucas, who had a fraction of Giratina’s essence, for killed and was brought back through the Distortion World. Giratina embodies the DW, and killing Giratina would leave the DW intact.

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    • I don't think the first one would be enough evidence because while the Guardians aren't confirmed destroyed their they are also not confirmed to still exist, the other one might be a case but as you said the whole corruption thing makes it tricky and could be rejected.

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    • Granted, I’m fine with type 1 abstraction and soul immunity.

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    • Aren’t the DW and the normal world two halves of the same coin? Destroying one destroys the other?

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    • That is how it works, it's why Giratina intervened in Platinum.

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    • Yes, either that or to destroy one you have to destroy the other

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    • Then there you go. Cyrus destroyed the universe in his winning timeline, which would’ve caused the DW to collapse. Giratina is confirmed to be perfectly fine afterwards as he’s the one that yeeted Cyrus to Alola.

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    • I guess so but destroying a single universe probably wouldn't effect the Multiversal Distortion World and True Giratina.

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    • Wdym "Multiversal Distortion World"? The fact that the rainbow rocket stuff happened (along with each game being a separate universe) confirms that each universe has its own distinct distortion world.

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    • True, but it would affect the local one. Remember, like Dialga and Palkia, there has been confirmed to be multiple Giratinas in USUM.

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    • True but the point stands the Concept that True Giratina embody would concern the entire Pokémon Multiverse thus destroying one Universe and its Distortion World wouldn't erase all the things that partake in the Concept.

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    • It is said that Azelf keeps the balance of the world while it sleeps.

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    • True Giratina likely isn't the one who sent Cyrus to Alola. He described Giratina as a great shadowy being, which is an allusion to the events of Platinum (except this time he won).

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    • I don't think there's a distortion world by universe, tbh.

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    • Did my words change anyone’s opinions?

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    • Mespirit: Although it slumbers at the bottom of the lake, its spirit is said to leave its body and flitter on the water surface.

      This seems to suggest that the Lake Guardians do have Spirits thus shouldn't get Soul Manipulation Immunity

      Also I'm pretty sure that a Avatar of Giratina surviving the destruction of its Universe wouldn't be evidence towards Type 2 Concepts as the Multiversal Concept of Giratina and the True form of Giratina would both be uneffected by such a thing and so the Avatar would most likely be able to continue regardless.

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    • To be honest, I'm not sure how your points show that true Dialga/Palkia/Giratina are type 1 abstracts. You don't need to be a type 1 abstract to have avatars separate from your true self. The closest thing there is the stuff about Dialga being directly affected by changes made to time, showing it has a conceptual link of sorts.

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    • It just hit me that they don’t have conceptual manipulation at all, barring Arceus. It’s straight up confirmed that the Lake Trio imbued the concepts of willpower, emotion, and knowledge into life.

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    • NeoZex6399 wrote:
      I don't think there's a distortion world by universe, tbh.

      Why's that?

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    • GyroNutz wrote: To be honest, I'm not sure how your points show that true Dialga/Palkia/Giratina are type 1 abstracts. You don't need to be a type 1 abstract to have avatars separate from your true self. The closest thing there is the stuff about Dialga being directly affected by changes made to time, showing it has a conceptual link of sorts.

      In that case I have no earthly idea what gets you any sort of abstraction.

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    • Existing as a concept

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    • Type 1 Abstraction is a beings True Form having no form beyond your Abstract so that nothing can interact with them besides being able to interact with the Abstract.

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    • GyroNutz wrote: Existing as a concept

      But...they do

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    • Lol that’s a good one xD

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    • GyroNutz wrote:
      To be honest, I'm not sure how your points show that true Dialga/Palkia/Giratina are type 1 abstracts. You don't need to be a type 1 abstract to have avatars separate from your true self. The closest thing there is the stuff about Dialga being directly affected by changes made to time, showing it has a conceptual link of sorts.

      The CT existed before souls and physical matter existed, so they have no corporeal nor spiritul body, which very much qualifies for type 1 abtract existence

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Did my words change anyone’s opinions?

      No. But I disgress. Do as you like.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Did my words change anyone’s opinions?

      Nope

      I'am Sorry.

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    • Sigh. Has anyone brought up the statement from the Japanese Pokemon website referring to Giratina that says he holds no concept of space or time? I think this would contextually be referring to how he is exempt from Dialga and Palkia. At the very least, if he is exempt from the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure how you would go about trying to justify how him and those of similar nature to him aren't abstract. 

      Before anyone tries arguing the whole "antimatter" thing, I'll mention that there's an interview with the director clarifying that when they said Giratina is the embodiment of antimatter, "antimatter" is supposed to refer to an antithetical counterpart to space-time. 

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    • I don't think I have ever seen that picture before in any other Pokémon CRT or Versus thread, but I think it is good proof of Palkia and Dialga's Concepts and perhaps some other things involving Giratina separately.

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    • Didn't he get stuck in a time loop for a while

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    • I guess Dialga Time Manip is just that good. Though if it hasn't already, I'd prefer if one of the Wiki's Japanese readers could check to see if the translations right, just so it's 100% certain.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      Didn't he get stuck in a time loop for a while

      Yes

      But even with this, people can still argue with "Dialga can affect people who hold no Time space concept!" instead of treat this as an Anti feat

      Even if i don't like the former, it can easily be accepted as such in the wiki.

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    • I mean, Dialga can also time travel to a timeless place and time stop/slow without negative consequenses even though he's time, so his time powers being odd is not an one off thing

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    • One thing's for sure, unless if there's no readable source material, never trust the anime adaptations for feat depictions :P

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    • Overlord775 wrote:
      I mean, Dialga can also time travel to a timeless place and time stop/slow without negative consequenses even though he's time, so his time powers being odd is not an one off thing

      He was knocked out when he send Ash and co in the past in the jewel of life tho

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    • I thought even before this it was just treated as if Dialga's time hax can just work on people who exist outside of time, which Giratina consistently explicitly does. Giratina being affected by it would just make Dialga's time hax more impressive, that isn't really a contradiction to Giratina's nature. 



      By the way, I don't know how much I'm trusted or whatever, but I translated that myself awhile back and got someone else who I know knows Japanese better than me to double-translate it, so the translation itself is fine. And I do think it has been brought up in a thread in the past, I just don't think anyone said much of it. I found it from something Cal posted in a thread probably like a year and a half or so ago. 

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    • Well if that's so then I got no reason not to trust it then, so this means that in very least that Palkia and Dialga's Space and Time are almost certainly Conceptual, and the Giratina might be able to get Acausality for lacking the Concept of Space and Time.

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      • and Acausality for Arceus too
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    • Giratina really didn't have Acausality on his page? And also, Giratina's profile mentions how he "embodies antimatter on a conceptual level", yet he still doesn't have Abstract Existence. Odd. 

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    • Arceus already has Acausality Type 1 and 3 though

      Palkia and Dialga also have they are Space and Time on their profiles but they aren't Abstract either. Also pretty sure that Giratina did have Acausality at one point but it was removed, can't remember why though, something like a lack of evidence.

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    • Those are just Time Paradox Resistance and Temporeal type 6 immortality tho

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    • Is there any shred of evidence that Dialga and Palkia can only be affected by destroying their abstraction? There's not a single instance where this holds true in any medium.

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    • That's not a necessary requirement, there's many characters with type 1 AB that don't have showings for that

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    • The very definition of Type 1 is to be untouchable unless your concept is destroyed. Not being untouchable and only unkillable is Type 2 instead.

      From what I have seen, most characters with Type 1 tend to have at least one clear, non-vague piece of evidence putting them there, and if they don't, that just means their profiles are incorrect.

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    • The Creation Trio's come from the fact that their True Forms are the Concepts of Space/Time/Reverse of the World and lack Matter or Spirit, thus to effect them would require to interact with these Abstractions as they don't have anything else to interact with.

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    • BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature

      Disembodied Thought is Type 1 because he's a tought

      Dr. Gii is Type 1 because he's a possibility

      Lucetta Quetzl is Type 1 because she's a song

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    • > The Creation Trio's come from the fact that their True Forms are the Space/Time/Reverse of the World and lack Matter or Spirit, thus to effect them would require to interact with these Abstractions.

      At no point do they ever show the ability to regenerate or resurrect from their concept (Type 2), let alone Type 1. Embodying a concept no longer warrants any type of AE.

      > BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature

      First of all, thoughts and ideas are conceptual in nature by default. Second, Dialga and Palkia have never demonstrated the requirements for Type 1 anywhere.

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    • Actually they have, in the anime they were shown as masses of cosmic energy

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    • Scans?

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      Scans?

      Here

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    • There's no evidence of that being anything other than non-corporeality.

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    • They are described as the concept of space and time

      they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form

      they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled

      this is enought to warrant Type 1 Abtract Existence

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    • If Palkia and Dialga just are the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure where you're getting that there is a single instance where the two have been threatened without space and time being threatened, too. Threatening them, by proxy, threatens all space and time.

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    • > They are described as the concept of space and time

      This never happened. They embody those concepts, they aren't literally them.

      > they precede spirits and matter, while being clearly shown to not normally have a physical form

      Killing their incorporeal state isn't required to defeat or affect them, meaning there is ny way they can be Type 1.

      > they had to be forced in-to physical forms to be controlled

      They were brought into their physical forms because their non-corporeal forms are just unconscious blobs, actually.

      > If Palkia and Dialga just are the concepts of space and time, I'm not sure where you're getting that there is a single instance where the two have been threatened without space and time being threatened, too. Threatening them, by proxy, threatens all space and time.

      There is not a single instance of this in the anime, manga, or games. In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.

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    • There's also the fact that they can be knocked out by anything in the franchise.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      >Killing their incorporeal state isn't required to defeat or affect them, meaning there is ny way they can be Type 1.

      They created space, time and matter while in that disembodies state, so they can act like that

      >They were brought into their physical forms because their non-corporeal forms are just unconscious blobs, actually.

      Nah, Cyrus didn't even use portals in the anime, he just forced them down in to physical forms

      >There is not a single instance of this in the anime, manga, or games. In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.

      The lake trio were also shown as formless masses of energy in the games

      also, PMD Dialga just being time paradoxed is clear PIS

      @GoP

      Blatant game mechanics and that's only their physical forms too

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    • >In PMD, Dialga was going to be erased by a time paradox and had to be saved by Arceus.

      Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.

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    • > They created space, time and matter while in that disembodies state, so they can act like that

      They didn't create anything other than physical matter. Arceus created time and space and Dialga and Palkia came into existence as embodiments of those aspects of Arceus' creation, but gain no abstract abilities from it.

      > Nah, Cyrus didn't even use portals in the anime, he just forced them down in to physical forms

      So? That doesn't change my point.

      > The lake trio were also shown as formless masses of energy in the games

      So?

      > MD Dialga just being time paradoxed doesn't make sense because the CT were explicidy stated to precede time and space everywhere else, so it's clear PIS

      The CT doesn't predate time and space, they came into existence alongside space and time, specifically as embodiments of said aspects of Arceus' creation.

      They completely lack Type 1 showings to begin with, so the "PIS" card can't be pulled here to negate the anti-feat.

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    • > Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.

      Dialga losing control of its ability to manipulate time and going into a mad rampage doesn't translate to Dialga losing its abstract existence, Kukui. That makes absolutely no logical sense.

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    • I question myself about something, if a verse (here pokemon) state that some characters predate time and space, if they are still time paradoxed, does we count this as a pis or treat this as the fact that predate time don't make you immune to time stuff in the verse setting?

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      > Can you stop bringing this point up? It's been debunked multiple times. That was Primal Dialga who was going to be time paradoxed, not normal Dialga. The weakness of the former doesn't apply to the latter.

      Dialga losing control of its ability to manipulate time and going into a mad rampage doesn't translate to Dialga losing its abstract existence, Kukui. That makes absolutely no logical sense.

      It does when time itself was being corrupted by what was happening in MD. 

      Keep in mind, I dont care if the AE isn't legit. I just dislike the reasoning your using to disagree. 

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    • As usual every Pokemon anti feat is PIS from what I frequently read.

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    • People are mixing "non corporeality" with "abstract existence".

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: They didn't create anything. Arceus created time and space and Dialga and Palkia came into existence as embodiments of those aspects of Arceus' creation, but gain no abstract abilities from it.

      Palkia and Dialga did create things in that Abstract existence its mentioned that "The two beings wished, and from them, matter came to be." With the Two obviously being Palkia and Dialga

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    • That only tells us that they have no physical body in their original form. Again, non-corporeality.

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    • There's was nor matte nor spirit, so they only thing that their bodies could have been made of is the concept itself

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    • They created matter, not time and space. Arceus was the one who did that:

      • Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise

      Dialga and Palkia are embodiments of Arceus' creation, and the trio was created in order to bind time and space:

      • The Original One breathed alone before the universe came. When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate. The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate. Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space. Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world.„
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    • "From itself, two beings the Original One did make.

      Time started to spin. Space began to expand."

      The plates are simply not put in chronological order

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      That only tells us that they have no physical body in their original form. Again, non-corporeality.

      So, what is the difference then? Being fair here, im referring to this: 

      "BTW, for Type 1 Abtract Existance you don't even need conceptual sheninigans, you just need to be abtract in nature

      Disembodied Thought is Type 1 because he's a tought

      Dr. Gii is Type 1 because he's a possibility

      Lucetta Quetzl is Type 1 because she's a song"

      I dont see what really any different betweeen this and Dialga/Palkia. Especially from what the anime gave us.

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    • The Three beings are the Lake Guardians actually, the binding Space and Time thing is when they calm down Palkia and Dialga, the version in the OP

      "From itself, two beings the Original One did make.

      Time started to spin. Space began to expand.

      From itself again, three living things the Original One did make."

      Points to the opposite case of Space and Time coming about because of the advent of their birth.

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    • Type 1 is:

      • Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      Type 2 is:

      • Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it.

      The absolute most I can see for them is Type 2. They definitely don't qualify for Type 1.

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    • The Causality wrote:

      Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      Didn't he get stuck in a time loop for a while

      Yes

      But even with this, people can still argue with "Dialga can affect people who hold no Time space concept!" instead of treat this as an Anti feat

      Even if i don't like the former, it can easily be accepted as such in the wiki.

      Cough Cough

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    • Overlord775 wrote: There's was nor matte nor spirit, so they only thing that their bodies could have been made of is the concept itself

      Or... Time... And... Space... Which is what they embody?

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    • >Unconscious blobs in their true forms

      Completely unproven

      And not a single thing said by me was addressed. Just Kukui or Nia while what I said was just “I didn’t change my mind”

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    • @Kep

      They actually do have type 1 showing, funnily enought in the Jewel of life, since the second coming of Arceus wasn't erased from time and nobody loss memory of the pre-time fix event

      also

      Type 1 is:

      • Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      The most important point is the first, not being able to be interacted with is the consequance

      and the CT as shown Here fits the description

      also to answer your previous qustion, the CT would scale to the Lake Trio

      @PaChi

      Being made of time and space is Type 1 Abtract Existance

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    • PaChi2 wrote:

      Or... Time... And... Space... Which is what they embody?

      How can you embody something without a physical form?

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    • People. None of that is Type 1.

      Type 1 implies the CT can not be affected at all without directly affecting time and space as concepts. Never happened and they are definitely not this type.

      Type 2 implies that permanently destroying the CT requires destroying the concepts they embody. That might be the case, but they wouldn't be able to regenerate based on their concept, either. If someone destroyed their forms they would be incapable of regenerating or resurrecting without outside help, which makes me iffy on them having this type.

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    • "Being made of time and space is Type 1 Abtract Existance"

      You see, when you imply that Dialga and Palkia are conceptual beings with type 1 AE you are saying that the only way to affect them is to affect directly the actual concept of time and space.

      When you say that Dialga and palkia are conceptual beings with type 2 AE you are saying that the only way to kill them is to destroy the concept of time and space, but to affect them you just need the ability to affect time/space.

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    • Never have I once said you had to destroy the concept of time and space. Just that you had to destroy time and space as a whole to destroy them. Because there are several instances in the core games, not even the anime, manga, or spinoffs, where capturing or defeating one of them does shit-all to the collective.

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    • @Kep

      Because their true forms were never shown on screen beside that scene in the anime, where they were forced in to physical forms by the red chains to be controlled

      all other showings are their physical forms

      @PaChi

      Giratina is stated to be outside the concepts of time and space , so Dialga and Palkia are logically the concepts

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    • Let's put it this way.

      If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

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    • And people haven’t even addressed the Lake Trio stuff, where they’re outright stated to have created in people what they’re the beings of. Azelf, the being of willpower, created willpower when it started flying, which it literally has always done. And I highly doubt that the Creation Trio, who are made by Arceus slightly prior to the Lake Trio, are functionally different to the vastly inferior Lake Trio.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: Let's put it this way.

      If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

      False. The true form straight up poops out a Dialga for Lucas to catch in Platinum, and still persists if Lucas defeats it.

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    • I’m neutral with everything except for Soulhax immunity, which is what I agree on.

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    • Giratina is a ghost type, therefore it is a spiritual being GG.

      I agree with them getting Abstract Existence. People aren't confusing Non-Corporeality for Abstract Existence btw, they're drawing the fact that Dialga and Palkia are clearly non-physical in their natural forms. If they're associated as heavily as they are with their respective concepts and clearly are non-physical, I don't see why they wouldn't have it. At worst, this would warrant a "likely".

      I agree with Immunity to Soul Manipulation as well, that's pretty cut and dry. Assalt's original reasoning made absolutely no sense to remove it to begin with.

      Neutral on them being Type 2 Concepts.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Kepekley23 wrote: Let's put it this way.

      If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

      False. The true form straight up poops out a Dialga for Lucas to catch in Platinum, and still persists if Lucas defeats it.

      Out of curiosity, how can you consider that when anyone defeating the Creation Trio is considered PIS.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      That's like a decent amount of Legendaries if you defeat them, go through the Elite 4 and Champion, they sometimes respawn like the Swords of Justice IIRC.

      The fact there are multiple versions of CT members would already support this though so the point is moot for whoever tries to argue against it.

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    • @PaChi. I don’t claim PIS. Anti feats are anti feats. Same as the cosmic level Zach Fair getting killed by bullets. The feats of them being lesser happened and people need to deal with it. It doesn’t lower their power just like Superman’s lower feats don’t do the same.

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    • Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      Let's put it this way.

      If I pit Dialga against Johnny McBoy, Johnny would be capable of punching him out of existence. His "true" form wouldn't do anything to fashion him another physical form (Type 2), nor would it prevent his physical body from being hit (Type 1)

      The true form is sentient, so it just pops out another avatar in that case

      also as shown by Arceus making physical duplicate of CT in the manga, the physical forms even have the same memories

      also nobody is saying that the physical forms are abtract too

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

      Except the text outright says that Dialga disappears into thin air if defeated.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Then what's your derivative of multiple Dialgas exactly?

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    • @Ploz, obviously there is one Dialga per universe, he only exists alongside helps sustain time, he no longer is the embodiment of time, he clearly is only 4-B like the other Legendaries because all of his feats are just coincidental side effects of him and Palkia fighting while sustaining space-time. /s

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      Cal...that's pure game mechanics, unless you're saying Lucas vaporizes every Dialga he defeats now, and that's what is forcing Dialga to recreate himself.

      Considering that no other legendary (to my knowledge) respawns after they're defeated by the player, this isn't game mechanics. Also, what Cal said. 

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    • No, some come back to where they left. Most of them just run or teleport away.

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    • @Kukui

      From the top of my head Ho-oH respawns after you defeat the league.

      Not arguing against what you say. Just pointing that out.

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    • Doesn't Ho-oh have the resurrection Phoenix thing with the Beast Trio and Sacred Ash.

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    • Niarobi (Formerly Hadou) wrote: @Ploz, obviously there is one Dialga per universe, he only exists alongside helps sustain time, he no longer is the embodiment of time, he clearly is only 4-B like the other Legendaries because all of his feats are just coincidental side effects of him and Palkia fighting while sustaining space-time. /s

      Everything you said is correct, no need for /s.

      Now try being constructive, okay?

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    • This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn when you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

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    • Yeah. There’s a reason I’m being as polite as I possibly can be because I don’t want to further lower the opinion people have on Pokémon fans. I’m trying my damnedest to be polite even if I wanna be snarky to some responses. Also helps that I like everyone here.

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    • The Causality wrote:
      This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn we you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

      Arceus's event wasn't ever released, so it's not even canon

      Giratina repawns, you just need to go thought the entrance to the distortion world in that one labyrinth cave

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    • The Causality wrote: This is like 100% game mechanics, Arceus don't respawn we you defeat it, do that mean he isn't abstract? Giratina too, all i see here is some high level headcanon imo

      What? Arceus just dissolved his avatar when defeated in the event, and it’s implied he’s testing you anyway. Giratina is the same. Every other legendary screws off some way or another. They either run or fly or teleport.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      Arceus's event wasn't ever released, so it's not even canon

      Giratina repawns, you just need to go thought the entrance to the distortion world in that one labyrynth cave

      He respawn only two time, if you defeat him in the cave, you can no longer see him again. this show the pinaccle of a game mechanic.

      So official event accessible in-game can be non canaon? i highly doubt of it.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Yeah. There’s a reason I’m being as polite as I possibly can be because I don’t want to further lower the opinion people have on Pokémon fans. I’m trying my damnedest to be polite even if I wanna be snarky to some responses. Also helps that I like everyone here.

      We like you too.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      What? Arceus just dissolved his avatar when defeated in the event, and it’s implied he’s testing you anyway. Giratina is the same. Every other legendary screws off some way or another. They either run or fly or teleport.

      So? "Arceus dissolved his avatar" is also headcanon, i don't see how the fact that Dialga and Palkia respawn is due to them being abstract instaed of a game mechanic, by your logic, Giratina isn't abstract due to him not coming back everytime you defeat him.

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    • I don't see how any of this even proves type 2...

      They appear to have the now removed type 3.

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    • Or, maybe he doesn’t want to. Suicune doesn’t respawn while his daddy Ho-oh does.

      No? The text of Arceus is defeated says the same thing: that Arceus vanished into thin air. And he does reappear every time you play the Azure Flute.

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    • "daddy"

      U assuming Ho-oH's gender? Cal?

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    • I still don't get why they shouldn't get Type 1

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Or, maybe he doesn’t want to. Suicune doesn’t respawn while his daddy Ho-oh does.

      Okay, "he doesn't want to" is not a good reason from my point of view, it's more an excuse, so Dialga and Palkia reapear as much as you want even if you beat them like a pulpe everytime, i guess that mean they are masochist?

      And from my knowledge, you can't play more than one time the azure flute in the same game.

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    • PaChi2 wrote: People are mixing "non corporeality" with "abstract existence".


      Abstract Logia's GG. On topic: I agree fully with Pachi and Kep.

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    • Oi @OP I didnt say anything about conceptual type 2. I'm only here for AE.

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    • @OP i didn't accepted nor denied Abstract Existence, i was only here for fun and debate about some (according to me) fallacious arguments, i don't care what is the consensus i've no longer interest about revised stuff in the wiki.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:
      I mean, Dialga can also time travel to a timeless place

      'scuse me, when did this happen?

      Also yes to soulhax immunity, unsure but leaning towards yes on AE, and no on Concept manip.

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    • @Causality

      Yes, because it never even happened, you can't call canon something that didn't even happen and was probably left unfinished too

      And Giratina respawns if you beat the E4, i think

      @Sirgurd

      They are because they've shown to be formless masses of energy and directly stated to be conceptual in nature

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    • @overlord

      Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      Do you have proof of the highlighted?

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    • Don't you need to attack the CT's true Form to kill them? You can't kill them by attacking their Universal Avatars?

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      @overlord

      Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      Do you have proof of the highlighted?

      For the record, that is exactly what I have been asking for this entire time.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:
      @Causality

      Yes, because it never even happened, you can't call canon something that didn't even happen and was probably left unfinished too

      And Giratina respawns if you beat the E4, i think

      Hm, i got it i guess.

      And yes, he appear after you defeat the Elite 4 the first time, after that, if you defeat him, he don't reaper anymore, even if you defeat the E4 again.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:

      Uh, the two other parts are directly in support of what the CT do. A lot of Type 1s don't need the tidbit of the direct showing, just as long as they're inherently conceptual. Chaos Force beings have it like that for a reason.

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    • @Sigurd and PaChi

      Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      This is the requirement

      the other is what the state gives

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    • The other is what the state is.

      It is the description of how a Type 1 behaves.

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    • Well, my final question on this thread is, what are the proofs of them being type 1 abstract? if someone can explain me, it could be cool.

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    • No, it's what the state gives

      "Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. "

      They only existing as abtraction, aka no body or soul to affect

      "These characters lack a true physical form"

      because they are just abtracts, no physical body, no true physical form

      "affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself."

      because their exists as just as an abtraction, so you need to hit the abtractions to be able to affect them

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    • No.

      Those are the requirements you must fill in order to be considered a type 1 abstract. It's the other way around.

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    • it's not, nothing there says that it's a requirement

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    • it is actually

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    • @OP

      BTW, i accept everything minus being neutral on the Type 2 Concepts since what fits as them seem to be subjective more than anything

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      it is actually

      prove it then

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    • it's on the page itself.

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    • @Zeifyl

      I don't think it's related to time travel, but you can catch Dialga here in ORAS.

      DialgaORAS.
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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      it's on the page itself.

      It doesn't, the only requirement is

      "Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction."

      with the rest being the explanation of what that actually means, just like how it's for Type 2

      "Type 2: Embodies an abstraction, and can be resurrected or regenerate indefinitely thanks to it. "

      where this is the requirement ^

      "Destroying the abstraction is required to permanently kill those characters, but they can still be affected without directly altering it. "

      and this is the explanation ^

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    • ""Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction."

      with the rest being the explanation of what that actually means, just like how it's for Type 2"

      Then, logically speaking, if they dont fill the bill of what that actually means, they dont really exist purely as an abstraction. 

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    • About AE I will remain neutral, although in the games Dialga and Palkia are called or referenced as time and space, or beings of time and space, also Cyrus in the manga states that Dialga's heartbeat is the flow of time itself.

      Also in the manga it is said that the lake trio is basically part of the spirit of every Pokemon trainer/human.

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    • What Pachi said. Based on feats they can’t even get type 2. Only the removed type 3 that isn’t actually abstract existence similar to here.

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    • @Sigurd and PaChi

      This here shows the opposite

      It shows them as both as naturally formless

      And there's the fact they precede the creation matter and spirit, so they CAN'T have a true physical form nor a spiritual one

      and the Creation Trio is explicidly stated to work on a conceptual nature as shown here

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    • At this point, this is turning into whether AE T1 needs a revision, or much of the characters who have it need it removed.

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    • You dont understand. We dont care if they are or are not abstractions, that is not what matters to have Abstract Existence, we care about them, as abstractions, behaving like the page says each type of abstraction behaves. Otherwise, they are abstractions but dont have Abstract Existence, because they never showed that power. Simple as that.

      This is not even referring to Dialga and Palkia right now.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      At this point, this is turning into whether AE T1 needs a revision, or much of the characters who have it need it removed.

      Can you handle this? or do you want me to create the said thread?

      EDIT: Ultimately, i don't really care so i'll decline my own offer (i'am too lazy to make a thread about it).

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      You dont understand. We dont care if they are or are not abstractions, that is not what matters to have Abstract Existence, we care about them, as abstractions, behaving like the page says each type of abstraction behaves. Otherwise, they are abstractions but dont have Abstract Existence, because they never showed that power. Simple as that.

      This is not even referring to Dialga and Palkia right now.

      Disembodied Thought says hi

      Evilswarm says hi

      Ishtar Astardes says hi

      Lucetta Quetzl says hi

      I can name many more too

      all of them go against what you are saying

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    • If they go against what I say, remove that ability as it isnt legit. Simple.

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    • What’d I miss?

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      If they go against what I say, remove that ability as it isnt legit. Simple.

      OOOOOR

      you are simply wrong and your opinion is baseless

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    • So, again, 3 possibilities: 

      1.) Pachi is wrong, Overlord is right and the CT should have AE T1

      2.) Overlord is wrong, Pachi is correct, the CT dont get AE T1 and the other characters who do have it need it removed from them as well

      3.) AE T1 in general needs to be revised..

      @Causality

      You can make it if you want.

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    • or 4, they simply don't meet all the requierments.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      PaChi2 wrote:
      If they go against what I say, remove that ability as it isnt legit. Simple.

      OOOOOR

      you are simply wrong and your opinion is baseless

      What opinion? Im just applying what the page says.

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    • Frankly the mere fact that they have avatars independent of one another, being formless and omnipresent in their true forms, and them already being conceptual beings prior to those revelations would’ve granted AE to anyone else.

      No, I’m not going that route. Arceus forbid I go there.

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    • @Sigurd

      That's just ... option 2, not something different

      @PaChi

      YOUR INTEPRETATION of what the page says

      and since there's clear evidence of the opposite in many profiles

      Your interpretation is the one more likely to being wrong

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    • What interpretation. Lol

      Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      >Exist purely as an abstraction

      >Descritpion/Deffinition.

      From here we deduce that characters that exist purely as an abstraction follow the given description/deffinition. That is what the page says.

      Therefore, if you dont follow the description, you are not a being that exists purely as an abstraction according to thr page

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    • I think we should leave this topic aside, it seems that the problem lies a little in the descriptions of AE and conceptual manipulation, which are maybe too ambiguous and leave room for interpretation. 

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    • Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

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    • @PaChi

      The CT does exists as purelly as an abtraction tho

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    • Overlord775 wrote: @PaChi

      The CT does exists as purelly as an abtraction tho

      Not according to the page. Come back after changing the page.

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    • That...that’s the point of the thread.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Type 1: Exists purely as an abstraction. These characters lack a true physical form, and affecting them requires the ability to affect directly the abstraction itself, because eventual physical manifestations are merely avatars.

      We have been asking for proof of "affecting them requires the ability to affect the abstraction itself". Nothing else. From the veey begining.

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    • I think we should first fix the profiles of the lake trio as they are very poor in quality and devoid of descriptions.

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    • What is written there is clearly NOT what you are interpreting it as, since it says anyone that is purelly Abtract cannot be normallly harmed, not that you need to not be able to be harmed to be considered purelly Abtract

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    • Im leaving the thread.

      It says that type 1 abstracts can only be affected by affecting directly the abstraction. Dont accuse me of making anything up.

      I bid you farewell, Im not replying again here, so dont bother.

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    • You guys are free to discuss about the whole AE problem here

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    • Because if we know that their true forms are literally time and space, and that their avatars exist independently from one another, let alone their true forms, and we know that making physical manifestations is nothing new for the G4 gods as it’s confirmed that the llama did so, it’s the logical conclusion. You’re asking for spoon fed information.

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    • Leaving does nothing but help the other side but ok

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    • I think the lake trio should at least be non-corporeal.

      PokemonDP vol03 p023me
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    • Either way I'm all for Type 1 AE and soul manipulation immunity, but yeah type 2 conceptual manipulation is a no-no for now... (who knows potential Gen 4 remakes might alleviate this?).

      Unfortunately after reading this thread it seems a lack of acknowledgment of the nature of the Pokémon franchise as well as blatant game mechanics getting brought up seems to continue to haunt Pokémon CRTs.

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    • Tbh I thought the only requirement for having type 2 was to embody or control a concept prior to the world.

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    • I agree with Type 1 AE.

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    • Abstract Existence Type 1

      This is simple, as mentioned before the pair existed before Matter, thus their true selves have no physical or spiritual form. They also embody the Space and Time they create as shown by their Large Size Type 9 and Nigh-Omniprescence. Thus they can only be effected by affecting the Concept they embody, Concepts which are very much Abstract.


      Cannot be this logic applied to the Lake trio too?

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    • Probably, but the CRT for them will be for another time

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    • The Axiom of Virgo wrote:
      Either way I'm all for Type 1 AE and soul manipulation immunity, but yeah type 2 conceptual manipulation is a no-no for now... (who knows potential Gen 4 remakes might alleviate this?).

      Unfortunately after reading this thread it seems a lack of acknowledgment of the nature of the Pokémon franchise as well as blatant game mechanics getting brought up seems to continue to haunt Pokémon CRTs.

      Now you know exactly why Dragon Ball Vs Pokemon threads get hella outta hand....or at least part of the problem.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      The CT existed before souls and physical matter existed, so they have no corporeal nor spiritul body, which very much qualifies for type 1 abtract existence

      Stuff can exist with no soul or matter without having to be a concept. But why would this get them anything other than the deleted "type 3" or even type 2 abstract existence, rather than type 1? 

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    • Soul and Matter are the only shown states of being in pokemon [other than data, but that's clearly not what the CT are], so them being the concept themself is the only thing they could really logically be.

      also there's the fact that Giratina lacks of Concept of Time Space which shows the CT are concptual in nature and this one which show the non-physical Palkia/Dialga.

      Also the LT, which the CT would scale to in nature, are explicidly stated to be abtract in nature

      PokemonDP vol03 p023me
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    • Because at the same time they are also the Space and Time of the Pokémon World, and without any Matter or Spirit their True Forms are likely to just be the Space and Time, which means you won't be able to harm them without harming those Concepts.

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    • also there's the fact that Giratina lacks of Concept of Time Space

      So... what about that?

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    • JustANormalPerson01
      JustANormalPerson01 removed this reply because:
      Misstake
      21:13, February 11, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • That doesn't mean other types of being don't exist, or that they have to be concepts since the only other being that exists purely as a concept is Arceus. Hell, several intangible Pokemon exist that aren't stated to be spiritual.

      That's cool and all, but lacking concepts doesn't make you conceptual in nature.

      The Lake Trio stuff is interesting though. That does seem to point to them being the concepts of spirits, but it's been shown before that they can be defeated/incapacitated via defeating their physical forms, which is a type 1 antifeat. Although didn't Dialga and Palkia create the Lake Trio? Wouldn't that give them a form of conceptual creation?

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    • According The Original Story, arceus creates Lake Trio from itself too

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    • @GyroNutz Lake Trio was Arceus creation, all of these two groups were created directly from Arceus's body.

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    • Arceus was the one who made them, as stated in the text in the OP, and the lacking Concept thing was to show that their was a Concept of Space and Time which based on how everything Space-Time related involves Palkia and Dialga and how it was Giratina their equal and opposite who has it, points towards Palkia and Dialga's Space and Time, which they are, being Conceptual in nature.

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    • JustANormalPerson01 wrote:
      According The Original Story, arceus creates Lake Trio from itself too

      Right, I got it mixed up.

      @Everything There is a concept of space and time, it doesn't have to be Dialga and Palkia though, they could simply govern space and time, which is heavily implied in pretty much everything to do with them.

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    • > Giratina lacks concept of space and time

      No, he doesn't. I have already talked about this in the past. The same link states space and time are distorted, so the context clearly goes against that interpretation. The word "concept" doesn't automatically translate into the abstract ideas themselves, it can also mean "notion", "feeling", etc.

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    • @Kep

      It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time

      also in the Creation Trio context it clearly means the abtract kind of concept

      @Gyro

      There's no reason to assume Palkia and Dialga aren't said concepts of space and time

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    • @Gyro

      The dex says that the lake trio (Mesprit) can operate without their body.

      I also found this, I don't know if it's useful though...

      "Lake Verity Ahead
      According to legend, the lake is home
      to the Pokémon said to be "The being of
      Emotion"
      It is because of this Pokémon that
      people can experience sorrow and joy."

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    • > It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time

      You do realize the statement is talking about the Distortion World having no "concept" of space-time, right? Not Giratina.

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    • They can operate without their body yes, but they can be defeated when their spirit is in their body, like in D/P/Pt and PMD.

      Also could we get a multilingual member to give a full translation of that Giratina statement? Because the way its phrased on imgur, it seems like it is talking about Giratina.

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    • Giratina is the Distortion world

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: > It says the space and time around it is distorted, not that Giratina has distorted space-time

      You do realize the statement is talking about the Distortion World having no "concept" of space-time, right? Not Giratina.

      Please correct me if I'm wrong but isn't the distortion world = Giratina?.

      EDiT: ninja'ed.

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    • @Kep

      “Twists spacetime, holds no concept of time or space, it is said to live in the reverse side of the world, "Distortion World", a legendary pokemon.

      No, it's clearly referring to Giratina itself

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    • Adem Warlock69 wrote:
      Giratina is the Distortion world

      It's likely talking about avatar Giratina otherwise the statement wouldn't make any sense. Assuming that the imgur translation is indeed the correct one.

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    • "A Legendary Pokémon that lives in the back side of the world, where space and time are twisted and there is no concept of time or space."

      This is a alternative translation I got from a website, not Google, translation, though as previously said Giratina is the Distortion World, and the Twisted Space and Time could refer to the bizarre nature of the Distortion World which has the terrain be twisted with the gravity being inconsistent, trees appearing and disappearing randomly, and floating rocks able to move entirely on the own power, which could still be said even with a place that lacks the Concept of Space and Tine.

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    • It is said in the games that the distortion world is a world where rules are broken.

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    • The nature of the Distortion World seems to imply some form of physics or law manipulation, imo.

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    • Can we kind of stop pivoting towards mentioning different haxes and focus on the one thats currently in discussion atm?

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    • There was dialogue by Cynthia stating that if Giratina dies, so does the Distortion World. However, keep in mind that she may be referring to the physical avatar and not the true form of said Pokemon.

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    • @Dragopentling Not only that, but a few sentences later Cynthia said that what Cyrus said was a lie:

      "Don't believe his lies. It's not possible that a Pokémon can make the world disappear. The world awaited your birth. Not only yours, either. The Pokémon with you. The people close to you. All the Pokémon and people were born because they have a part in the world. I'm convinced of that. Giratina won't go out of existence. The Distortion World won't disappear. Our world won't disappear, either."

      However, you could say that this was Cynthia being negationist about all of that lol

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    • Executor N0 wrote:
      @Dragopentling Not only that, but a few sentences later Cynthia said that what Cyrus said was a lie:

      "Don't believe his lies. It's not possible that a Pokémon can make the world disappear. The world awaited your birth. Not only yours, either. The Pokémon with you. The people close to you. All the Pokémon and people were born because they have a part in the world. I'm convinced of that. Giratina won't go out of existence. The Distortion World won't disappear. Our world won't disappear, either."

      However, you could say that this was Cynthia being negationist about all of that lol

      At worst, I think it'd be more like you can no longer enter the Distortion World if you get rid of the avatar, not a case of the actual world disappearing, cause keep in mind, the Distortion World was supposed to be flip side of the coin with the normal world.

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    • Dragopentling wrote:
      There was dialogue by Cynthia stating that if Giratina dies, so does the Distortion World. However, keep in mind that she may be referring to the physical avatar and not the true form of said Pokemon.

      It was Cyrus, not Cynthia

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      • "Giratina is stated to have no concept of time and space"

      I had a very strong sense of deja-vu regarding this statement, and it turned out my inner senses were correct; I had, in fact, seen and addressed this statement several months ago, and it's out of context.

      • A legendary Pokemon that lives in the "broken world" where space and time are twisted and there is no concept of time or space, which is behind the world.

      The statement is referring to the Distortion World, not Giratina himself, and it's not talking about the literal concepts of space and time either, considering it talks about space and time being distorted.

      The kanji translated as "concept" is 概念, which can also mean "notion", "feeling" or "idea. Likewise, the word 'concept' itself is often used to refer to the way humans/people perceive things and conceptualize them, as opposed to a literal abstract form (an example is a god/immortal entity saying something like "Humans have no concept of their own mortality"). The context clearly dictates that this is how the word is being used.

      tl;dr Not evidence of anything.


      • Giratina embodies the Distortion World and gets Type 1 from it.

      Giratina was actually banished to the Distortion World, as per almost every Pokédex entry.

      • It was banished for its violence. It silently gazed upon the old world from the Distortion World.

      The Jewel of Life movie supports this, with Arceus being stated to have created the CT's realms, which consist of Dialga's time dimension, Palkia's spatial dimension and the Distortion World.

      Even if this were the case, Cyrus theorizes that Giratina's death would mean the death of the Distortion World, so there is really no evidence that 'embodying' the Distortion World allows Giratina to resurrect or regenerate once its avatar is destroyed.

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    • They created matter, not time and space. Arceus was the one who did that:
      • Hmm... The spirit came to be, and from it, time and space were born...That seems to point to Legendary Dialga, the Pokémon of time, and Palkia, the Pokémon of space...And they lead back to Arceus, the Pokémon that made them arise

      Dialga and Palkia are embodiments of Arceus' creation, and the trio was created in order to bind time and space:

      • The Original One breathed alone before the universe came. When the universe was created, its shards became this Plate. The power of defeated giants infuses this Plate. Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space. Two make matter, and three make spirit, shaping the world.„

      Okay, that's definitely not Type 2 Conceptual Manipulation, that is Type 3.

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    • The "three beings" seem to refer to the lake trio.

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    • Two beings of time and space set free from the Original One. Three beings were born to bind time and space.

      If you read the sentence just before it then it would be obvious who they were talking about, also I think the sentence about being beings of Time and Space is more evidence that they are in fact Time and Space.

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    • Which is still Type 3 without any proof of Type 2.

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    • The whole being Space and Time thing wasn't about Type 2, even I've decided I was probably wrong at this point, it was referring to the other Abstract Existence argument about Dialga and Palkia not being Space/Time.

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    • But I was talking about Conceptual Manipulation

      I thought you replied to me about this.

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    • Type 2 concepts being a thing was completly abandoned by this point tbh

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    • Okay, a bit off topic, but based off the 10th movie, shouldn’t Palkia be noted to have passive (or at least semi-passive) Space / Matter Manipulation, which may technically count as EE?

      sorry if I’m corrected later.

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    • Agree with Type 1 AE FRA

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    • Dragopentling wrote:
      Okay, a bit off topic, but based off the 10th movie, shouldn’t Palkia be noted to have passive (or at least semi-passive) Space / Matter Manipulation, which may technically count as EE?

      sorry if I’m corrected later.

      That isn't just in the 10th movie either. In the manga, even casual punches exchanged between Dialga and Palkia had an AoE EE effect. They definitely have EE.

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    • They do definitely have EE, specifically they have it on their profiles, it's more the powers while accepted are never mentioned in threads.

      They don't have a resistance though.

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    • Oh. I thought they didn't have it on their profiles for some reason.

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    • Everything12 wrote:
      They do definitely have EE, specifically they have it on their profiles, it's more the powers while accepted are never mentioned in threads.

      They don't have a resistance though.

      I'm pretty sure they have resistance or immunity to each other's EE, though.

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    • But apparently not on their profiles.

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    • They should do, given it was passively affecting stuff further away than the two were away from each other.

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    • How much more do we need to discuss? We gotta make sure everything’s practically foolproof and set in stone here.

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    • I agree with this upgrade.

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    • Dragopentling wrote: How much more do we need to discuss? We gotta make sure everything’s practically foolproof and set in stone here.

      Roughly everything.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Dragopentling wrote: How much more do we need to discuss? We gotta make sure everything’s practically foolproof and set in stone here.

      Roughly everything.

      Ummmm, sure, I guess.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:

      Dragopentling wrote: How much more do we need to discuss? We gotta make sure everything’s practically foolproof and set in stone here.

      Roughly everything.

      Does this include Immunity to Soul Manipulation, are you also against that?

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    • Everything12 wrote:

      Kepekley23 wrote:

      Dragopentling wrote: How much more do we need to discuss? We gotta make sure everything’s practically foolproof and set in stone here.

      Roughly everything.

      Does this include Immunity to Soul Manipulation, are you also against that?

      Tbf, I'm pretty sure he doubts EVERYTHING offered here, given the responses so far.

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    • I have no opinion on anything but the Abstract Existence.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Have you reached a conclusion here?

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    • Type 2 Concepts are unanimously disagreed to and Soul Immunity is pretty much unanimously agreed to, Abstract Existence Type 1 has quite a few people agree to its points though it does have one or two who disagree with it.

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    • Other than anime outliers, there’s nothing in particular to “prove” they don’t have Type 1 AE, though.

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    • What do the staff members think?

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    • As for Type 1 AE, Cal and Executor agree. Kep and PaChi on the other hand, disagree. Also should we count PaChi as a staff member here? Because he used to be a discussion mod but then retired.

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    • Ex should be enough given his expertise with Digimon, a far more in-depth verse. If I got him, that’s good enough. Kep and PC will fall in line.

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    • Where does Executor say “I agree with type 1 AE”? I don’t see that anywhere in this thread. He merely states he thinks they should have some form of AE because of what they are but never a type.

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    • I’ve said several times I can settle with any type, be it 1 or 2.

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    • They don’t meet all the requirements for either of those. Only the non existent type 3.

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    • In the words of Colress, I disagree.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:

      Except we've been over why they do and there's more people in favor for it.

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    • Number of people is irrelevant.

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    • Yes, but the thing is that just because YOU think the the points don't lead the the conclusion of Abstract Existence does not mean that they don't. As other people see these points and think it does lead the Abstract Existence that leads to the possibility that your view of it not being Abstract Existence is wrong, though I do consent that it could be contrary and that they are wrong and you are right, but that's where the number of people come in, the more people who believe something is correct based off the evidence provided the more likely that interpretation is correct. After all what makes your opinion more valid then everyone else's.

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    • 5. Appeal to popularity

      This is when someone claims that if more people think one thing than another thing, then the one supported by the majority is correct.

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    • Well what do you suggest then, we just ignore everyone else's opinions because you think your right. Both sides gave their opinions for and against then people vote based on their opinion of the evidence given, that's how this works.

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    • The only staff to outright agree with Type 1 is Cal.

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    • Ex agrees with AE too

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    • And only one denied and are we just to ignore everyone else's opinions because they don't happen to be staff as if they don't matter and they can't make a interpretation based off evidence given.

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    • Executor thinks they should have some form of AE but he never says he agrees with type 1, if you read over his post.

      So what you need to do is contact more staff such as Ultima and etc.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      Executor thinks they should have some form of AE but he never says he agrees with type 1, if you read over his post.

      So what you need to do is contact more staff such as Ultima and etc.

      Doesn’t mean those members will immediately respond. I’ve already contacted a bunch of staff for a separate revision thread, but only like one has responded so far. We’re not going with no Type AE 1 just because you alone object to Type 1 AE and to us already having more people agreeing to it. There’s no good reason for entitlement here.

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