FANDOM


  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    09:19, February 6, 2020

    Ladies and gentlemen, I have a sad announcement, the scaling we use for Xeno Goku is... sadly inaccurate.

    Sorta.

    Now, you will tell me, but Xantospoc, we clearly have feats that show how he scales above Demigra and Chamel...

    This is true... except that it's not canon. The feats we are shown by Xeno Goku are from Ultimate Mission X, that is not canon to the remainder of the Xeno Goku main storyline.

    SOURCES

    ULTIMATE MISSION X Dialogues

    CURRENT SDH SAGAS TRANSLATION (ZENO'S ASSASSINATION SAGA AND DARK KING MECHKABURA) Dialogues

    Even reading the Demon Empire Saga (the one before Dark King Mechikabura) show the events can't fit at all. If anything, current feats and scaling put the character back at Low 2-C via the power of the universe seed (possibly higher, given the prior scaling), with Mechikabura's plan to absorb reality at Low 2-C.

    Alas, the dream of 2-A Goku is still far...

      Loading editor
    • Chair

      Dis gon be good

        Loading editor
    • >Xenoverse Sagas

      >Mechikabura

      That alone is already wrong...

        Loading editor
    • Hmm...

        Loading editor
    • Oh boy youre the same guy who downgraded Pachinko Godzilla XD

        Loading editor
    • What's the xenoverse saga ? Pretty sure Mechickabura and Hearts show up WAY after the whole Demigra thing.

      The events litteraly follow on another in the game so i don't see how they can be non-canon to each other, that's like saying chapter 1 of dragon ball is non canon to chapter 4.

        Loading editor
    • Here to keep the thread civil.

      And enjoy the show

        Loading editor
    • That's not Xenoverse, that's Universe Mission. And Ultimate Mission X takes place after the Xenoverse games, Demigra is referred to have been dead.

        Loading editor
    • Hst master wrote:

      And Ultimate Mission X takes place after the Xenoverse games

      Yeah, but that's non-canon to main Heroes.

        Loading editor
    • Except half of it contradicts including the games. The entire media contradicts itself repeatedly. For example Demigra helps stall for Mechikabura in game but in the manga he sends Chamel to help the time patrol. In the manga Paragus, Bardock, and King Vegeta die in a 3 way free for all while in the game he joins the time patrol. And we consider all of these events as actually had happened. At most it's a super situation.

        Loading editor
    • Manga and game are closer to the Super situation. Games like Ultimate Mission X and World Mission are closer to the Toeiverse situation.

        Loading editor
    • There are also these scans about the connection of Heroes and Xenoverse:

      Dbhcanonstuff

      Dbhcanonstuff2

        Loading editor
    • And the UM games are literally ports of the arcade up to a certain point. UMX's being The God Missions.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, that's why I compared it to the Toeiverse.

        Loading editor
    • Ionliosite wrote: Yes, that's why I compared it to the Toeiverse.

      And the events of UMX fit within the games timeline. Hence why it's separate from Toeiverse which will have things that straight up are impossible to fit like World's Strongest or Meta Cooler. Heck in the exact same thread linked someone points out that Trunks comment about frost in XV2 is in reference to them meeting in UMX.

        Loading editor
    • While the Ultimate Missions do contain ports of the arcade, their story modes are entirely separate and do not at all fit within the game's timeline. You get Dark Towa and Xeno Dabura appearing for the first time, which would suggest that the game takes place around GDM4, yet Demigra's already back in the present with his henchmen which doen't happen until GDM9. Towa's goal in UMX is to revive the Demon Realm, yet her achieving this is literally the impetus for the game's plot. Xeno Trunks acts like he's encountered the Black-Masked Saiyan for the first time in both UMX and GDM9. These are only a few of the inconsistencies, but hopefully you get the point.

      I feel pretty confident Grimlock was joking about the connection in that thread, unless you really want to believe there was an entire team of elite Time Patrollers who didn't bother showing up in XV2, and Towa and Mira just forgot to use their super forms.

        Loading editor
    • UMX already had all 10 GDM Packs. And like I pointed out earlier the entire media contradicts itself, including the games, anime, and several manga from not only what I already mentioned but 3 different versions of the Goku vs Xeno Goku fight, assault on the Demon Realm, and more, not to mention the U6 arc in XV2 happened after the main story, not during.

        Loading editor
    • Exactly. Like you said, it's a Super situation, and should be treated like this wiki treats Super - keeping the continuities as separate entities.

      Also I know UMX had the GDMs, it also had everything else from the arcade up until that point, but that's irrelevant since the game (like the other ports before and after it) keeps it isolated from its story mode.

        Loading editor
    • I'd be fine if it was treated like Super. But straight up saying it's non canon is iffy when the nature of Heroes in general challenges this.

        Loading editor
    • I feel like the best way to resolve this would be to make a tier for the different sagas he’s in.  For example: 

      Tier: Low 2-C | 2-B

      Key: Ultimate Mission | Ultimate Mission X

      That way, if any missions in the future show Heroes characters growing even stronger (like 2-A, for example) yet somehow contradict the main storyline, this can help with that.

        Loading editor
    • I apologize for my mistakes. I called them 'Xenoverse sagas', not because they are related to Xenoverse per se, but to the Xeno characters (to contrast the 'Super' Sagas of the Prison Planet and the Zeno Assassination Group).

      I apologize

        Loading editor
    • This is silly.  Heroes should not be split into sperate catagories.  Literally the manga, show and game all contradict eachother all the time, and contradictions are rampant even within each of those when isolated.  Not to mention tons of crossovers tie almost all DB content into Heroes in some form or another anyway. 

      There wasnt even a significant story until the god missions.  Your basically asking to make seperate versions for anime, each manga, ultimate mission, ultimate mission 2, UMX, World mission and the arcade machines when the story will still be inconsistent regardless, and its all just meant to loosely tie together in the first place.  Its unecissary.

      Not to mention like was said they literally have the arcade missions in the the same game cartridge and the same player character plays them, and there is even a manga page for heroes where Demon God Salza is playing UMX on a 3DS further linking the two if you really want that.  

      https://imgur.com/a/D9o2t

      SO im highly opposed.

        Loading editor
    • The fact that characters plays UMX in canon wouldn't make UMX non-canon? 

      I am not going too badly

        Loading editor
    • All of heroes is non canon.  And splitting it up into a half dozen mangas, anime and like 5 games is not going to remove the inconsistencies, it would just make unecisary keys, it will still be inconsistent even within all the medias themselves.  Not to mention it would logically just be like Goku with the movies anyway and we would scale all the feats up the chain like we do for him regardless even if they dont all fit perfectly together.  So nothing would change really.

      The real world is treated as outside DBH multiverse, and the DBH multiverse is a game, and the fact that they mention UMX specifically as part of DBH multiverse, even in media outside the game itself shows that it exists in other media aside from itself.

      Also again the arcade missions are literally in the game, and you use your player character that you use in the story to do the arcade missions to.

      Not to mention in world mission you literally have access to the arcade missions via in game functions that are talked about in story like your ability to customize, go to arcade, the shops etc.  So they are literally talked about in story mode in world mission.

      I just don't see any benifit to making tons more keys and splitting up all DBH media when it will still be inconsistent anyway, and it is clearly meant to just be loosely tied together in the first place, and they actually do have many connections to eachother and many other pieces of Dragon Ball media.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with SSJRyu1.

        Loading editor
    • I fully agree with SSJRyu1 since I know how ridiculous Heroes canon is. You seriously end up with a highly confusing if you just separate everything, since even then you still have contradictions. Heroes should be treated the same way as Pokémon tbh.

        Loading editor
    • SSJRyu1 is probably correct.

        Loading editor
    • I disagree. The problem with the entire OP's premise is that it's ignoring one fundamental thing: Even if we separate everything, sometimes direct sequels or stories in the same line will still contradict itself, thereby making the entire "Contradictory" argument moot. 

      You don't see Arceus getting a >8-B key for getting its butt wrecked in the Anime, so we should give it two separate keys for that right? Except it'd be pretty redundant and there's no real reason to even though we could if we really wanted to.

        Loading editor
    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

        Loading editor
    • Except it's neither a sequel nor a continuation

      It's closer to a reebot, really.

      (Also, IMO Arceus should get a massive downgrade, but that won't go anywhere)

        Loading editor
    • It's a sequel, hell, that's more than a sequel, it's litteraly the next level, you litteraly use the character you used for the other missions to go to those missions.

        Loading editor
    • No it's not

      You can't use the character from Ultimate Mission X to go the Dark Empire Saga as they are literally separated by consoles. It's like saying the World Missions are canon despite being from different consoles

        Loading editor
    • Xantospoc wrote:
      No it's not

      You can't use the character from Ultimate Mission X to go the Dark Empire Saga as they are literally separated by consoles. It's like saying the World Missions are canon despite being from different consoles

      Yes it is.

      'consoles', ultimate mission X was litteraly sold as a 'definitive edition' of the arcade game, it's not seperated from the arcade stuff, it's litteraly the arcade stuff and the dark empire saga is litteraly right after that.

      World Mission litteraly start with your character discovering the whole DBH thing, that can't be compared to Beat just going to fight while already knowing everything and having the same form and ability as litteraly the end of the previous story.

        Loading editor
    • (Also, IMO Arceus should get a massive downgrade, but that won't go anywhere)

      not if i have anything to say about it

        Loading editor
    • > There's literally other feats

      Mechikabura was asborbing all of time and about to absorb the entire multiverse

      Chronoa absorbed the power of all of time 

      Toki-Toki controls all of time and space

      Chronoa states SSJ4 Xeno Goku could affect all of time and Goku has in fact, purified and destroyed timelines filled with evil

      Then there's literally every feat in Xenoverse

        Loading editor
    • Seales was going to fuse the DBH multiverse with the Real World

      Xeno Goku scales above Chronoa, Trunks who sealed Mechikabura, has his own tier 2 feats, and scales above everything in xenoverse

        Loading editor
    • World Mission should be dismissed as the exception it does follow the canon in it's own light but clearly takes place in it's own separate reality and has scaling that would directly contradict the later parts of Prison Planet arc.

        Loading editor
    • I mean you can take away Goku's current justification if you want, we can just replace it by the countless other 2-B feats. No need to though, the one on his profile and Demigra's are legitmate 

        Loading editor
    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      World Mission should be dismissed as the exception it does follow the canon in it's own light but clearly takes place in it's own separate reality and has scaling that would directly contradict the later parts of Prison Planet arc.

      Again, the contradiction argument completely fails when you take into account how direct sequels or continuations in the same line also contradicts itself.

        Loading editor
    • That'sAkreious wrote:
      The 2nd Existential Seed wrote:
      World Mission should be dismissed as the exception it does follow the canon in it's own light but clearly takes place in it's own separate reality and has scaling that would directly contradict the later parts of Prison Planet arc.
      Again, the contradiction argument completely fails when you take into account how direct sequels or continuations in the same line also contradicts itself.

      That's the point, they do contradict themselves, because they're all different continuities (and largely intended as advertisements for the arcade).

      Besides, its a major plot point in World Mission that the DBH characters come from the real world.

        Loading editor
    • @Dom

      Did you read my post

        Loading editor
    • This should be closed. Majority agree it should stay and even if it didn't, there are many more feats on the same level

        Loading editor
    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:
      > There's literally other feats

      Mechikabura was asborbing all of time and about to absorb the entire multiverse

      Chronoa absorbed the power of all of time 

      Toki-Toki controls all of time and space

      Chronoa states SSJ4 Xeno Goku could affect all of time and Goku has in fact, purified and destroyed timelines filled with evil

      Then there's literally every feat in Xenoverse

      I'd like to have those feats added, tbh. 

        Loading editor
    • You have yet to debunk SSJRYU's points on why the normal feats should scale. And again, the majority clearly agree with the feat. 

        Loading editor
    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:
      @Dom

      Did you read my post

      Yeah, the feats themselves are fine.

        Loading editor
    • Inb4 lock

        Loading editor
    • Clearly there are many more feats.  Making more keys is honestly not necissary as I outlined above in the first place, and there is no real reason to change whats already there unless we wanted to add even more feats, but I think one for each is enough so the profile isn't clutered.  Even if you did no tiers would change like Zenkai pointed out since you could add in any number of feats to replace eachother.  This should be closed.  Honestly 2-B is already a low ball as it is imo.

        Loading editor
    • I'm just saying Xeno Goku / Vegeta shouldn't scale to the Tournament of Power shown in the World Mission as it's power level contradicts the notion of Goku and Vegeta's power in future arcs.

      I mean it's literally this if we go by the Tournament of Power in that arc: World Mission SSB Beat / Gogeta (Post-Break Limits) > Awakened Sealas (Experienced - His power rose quicker than Beat could normally deal with) > World Mission SSB Beat (Capable of rivaling Awakened Sealas and keep up with his copying strength for a time > Awakened Sealas (Rusty ; Gaining immense power over time to the point he was copying their strength through data and adding it to his own, essentially stacking their transformations ontop of his, meaning he was getting SSJ4 multipliers at an Unknown rate. But even before then he was stated as the strongest entity they fought, putting him > Blue Vegito) > Blue Vegito (Was effortlessly stomping the team and was going to oneshot them) > World Mission Post-ToP Group Power Together > MUI Goku > 12 GoD working together simultaneously > Singular GoD >

        Loading editor
    • Either way in general the tiers for the profiles have multiple multiversal feats in multiple arcs, some earlier some later, and across multiple media, and due to the reasons I mentioned above I don't see a need to make tons of keys which would not change much, and still be inconsistent even in their own media anyway story wise.

      I think somebody should msg Ant and close the topic since it seems unesisary to most to add more keys based on each game/manga/anime, and the tiers would be relatively unchanged anyway.

        Loading editor
    • I will close this thread then.

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.