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    • Alright, so here i go. Yujiro, basically the composite Bakiverse. Thanks to this, i'll not only be refering to his skill feats but also to the skill feats and techniques he upscales to.

      First the main stuff. Dude mastered every martial art that exists and even ones that existed centuries ago (implicitly saying he never got to have actual contact with them), and masters even martial arts that need more than a century of hard training to fully master with a glance at them being used in battle. Even ones that need extreme body control, such as Xiao Lee (it's explained how it works here and you can see it being used in this fight, i recommend reading it all), are flawlessly mastered by Yujiro in a few seconds of observation. Yujiro's pressure points are so precise he can make people faint with a slight tap.  He's so skilled the first person that ever managed to touch him was Motobe , another martial arts genius like everyone on the Bakiverse. The likes of 13yo Baki could already flawlessly predict the movements of masters of diverse martial arts, Yujiro not only massively upscales from that but also has his own feat of predicting an entire fight based on the stance of the fighters. 15yo Baki was considered the absolute king of the Tokyo Dome Underground Arena, where even the most "average" of fighters effortlessly curbstomped Rickson Gracie in skill (who, in the Bakiverse, has a 700 winstreak in professional fighting). 18yo Baki could dodge attacks similarly to Yasuri, that is, with movement so minimal it seemed like the attacks were phasing through him. 18yo Baki could also do this while in Yujiro's benda that makes blood come through all your body openings, while also making all your blood go to your brain, basically fucking you up immensely. Baki is also the maker of many other extremely skillful feats i'm forgetting as of rn because i'm not a machine that can perfectly remember more than 800 chapters of people beating each other up. 

      About the other characters Yujiro upscales from, we got people such as Retsu Kaioh, Doppo Orochi, Goki Shibukawa, Musashi Miyamoto, and some others. 

      Doppo Orochi is known as "the sun of karate" and "god of war", being a 10th Dan in the Shinshinkai Karate style he created himself. His analytical prediction is so perfect he could see through Dorian's hypnosis that makes the other fighter fight against an extremely weaker Dorian that doesn't actually exist. In reality, the opponent is just fighting against the air. He was affected by the hypnosis, but his AP was so good that even then it worked, defeating the real Dorian in the process. Orochi is a user of the technique "Sangan", created centuries ago. It requires perfect control of the eyes' sinew, as such it's extremely hard to utilize. Doppo Orochi is also the creator of the technique he defines as a "perfect Seiken". Because, even if he did that move thousands of times everyday of his life for the past 50 years, he recognized it would never be a truly perfect Seiken (medium punch shot from the waist, one of the basic karate moves). The Seiken, for him, was only a 99.99999999... (get, like,  4 or 5 paragraphs of nines here) % version of the true Seiken punch, the Bodhisattva Fist he created. This can be seen here(6:30 to 9:10, i couldn't find the manga scans, sorry) and other feats i'm forgetting as of rn.

      Kaku Kaioh is the creator of the Xiao Lee style. The dude not only has mastered Xiao Lee, what is obviously extremely difficult for what i said earlier, he also knows many forms of Chinese Kenpo not even the likes of Retsu Kaioh have ever seen before, Retsu Kaioh being probably the 2nd best Chinese Kenpo master of the verse. If that wasn't enough, he has trained Chinese Kenpo for the last 100+ years of his life, obtaining the "ultimate martial arts skill". Dude is 10-C physically and can fight evenly with Yujiro himself.

      Goki Shibukawa is a master of Jujutsu, Aiki, and Judo. But trust me, this isn't your average Aikido. Motobe claims that in the last 100 years, fewer than 10 martial artists have mastered true Aiki, and that Shibukawa is the first to utilize it in combat, having fought for Japan in actual wars in the past. His knowledge on human anatomy is great to the point he can do stuff like this (3:40) and this(right at the start). This Aiki works based on inner ki and as such can do stuff like this (5:45)

      Musashi Miyamoto knows all the sword styles that existed on his era, and is, well, Musashi Miyamoto. The dude can predict the moves of people like Baki even if they didn't show any physical sign that they will do it (breathing pattern, muscle tension, etc). Musashi is so damn skilled at swordmanship that he can cut without swords in his hands .  He has the senses of a real warrior and knows when not to hold back, and is the creator and master of the Niten Ichi-Ryū sword style. It's said that even 9th Dans in Kendo (about 20 people on the whole world) aren't even remotely comparable to Musashi. 

      And again, there's a bunch of other stuff i'm forgetting rn. This is very limited.

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    • I have the links to most of these I can feed into the thread as we discuss each on, and I have links for a few more feats, and just a few more feats in general, a lot of which is upscaling

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    • Ok so:

      Hayato is already above that, as Hayato can literally beat the entire verse at the same time (If we take Ougi out), so he's already above having learned martial arts. As for the mastery i'd rather not use it here as mastery can mean any level of mastery so best to stick to feats.

      Xiao Lee, is something Siegfried does differently, but better. He doesn't do it through relaxation, he does it through prediction, but it works against everything, including weapons, arrows, bullets, grabs etc. As for relaxation, Silicardo can do that to escape grabs. Here are some of Siegfrieds feats:

      Can read an opponet's rythym to then use it to become unaffected by attacks and use that power against an opponent

      Is unaffected by the attacks of 3 people all at once and defeats them with ease.

      His counters work even against sharp weapons. And reflects it in the same spots.

      Reflects even arrows.

      Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.

      Yeah Ougi was the only "rival" Hayato ever had. He also had a "hard fight" against Silicardo (but that guy got PIS and CIS'd into losing against what should be fodder to him so hard that i feel bad for him).

      As for prediction, yeah Renka has a similar feat. Remember she's disciple class. Literally insignificant in comparison. 

      Baki looks insanely fast to people cus of no waste in his movement, yeah, so did Hajime.

      Doppo is 10th dan? Yeah Sasaki laughs with his nickname being the 100th dan brawler. xD

      Doppo didn't actually see through the illusion he was cought up in it. Besides people start having illusions when trying to predict Berserker's next attack too.

      Hayato created this, which is basically a better Sangan.

      I need to go take a shower will answer the rest when i get back.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.

      To address the pressure point argument, killing with pressure points is actually quite easy due to each one being "an area on the human body that may produce significant pain or other effects when manipulated in a specific manner." I think Yujiro's feat of knocking out Baki is more impressive, as there is a gap in strength of millions, yet Yujiro is able to manipulate the Presure point to only knock Baki out as opposed to killing him instantly

      https://imgur.com/a/EaGsRmM

      Edit: the AP gap is roughly Baki scaling above 0.02 Tons to Yujiro being able to causally 2 shot a 15 KT

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    • I'll address one argument at a time and only move on to the next argument once we've all come to some kind of conclusion in order to make responses easier and communication more fluid

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    • I'm also pretty sure Yujiro's feat of copying Xiao-Lee is also better than anything Hayato has ever done. He won't use it against him but he should certainly be able to copy Hayato's moveset.

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:

      Death on a cellular level i meant.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I'm also pretty sure Yujiro's feat of copying Xiao-Lee is also better than anything Hayato has ever done. He won't use it against him but he should certainly be able to copy Hayato's moveset.

      Very true, and I plan to address that one with that very argument

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I'm also pretty sure Yujiro's feat of copying Xiao-Lee is also better than anything Hayato has ever done. He won't use it against him but he should certainly be able to copy Hayato's moveset.

      Can copy an entire martial arts (that's on a Supermaster level) during a fight.

      Alexander who was capable of copying Ougi by witnessing it once.

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    • Even the most basic characters of Baki can copy skills, even the ones who are literally brute force users such as Pickle and Jack. These guys, in comparison to the other characters, are literally brutes. God, one of them is literally a prehistoric man.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Death on a cellular level i meant.

      Could you explain this? I'm confused by the wording

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    • If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse

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    • Ahhh I understand. If that's the case, I'd say the 2 Pressure point feats are comparable, with Hayato's feat being the more impressive of the 2. If everyone agrees, we can move on to the next feat

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse

      True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:
      If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
      True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro

      Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:
      If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
      True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro
      Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?

      We'll get to Aiki eventually. For now, do you agree or disagree that Hayato's and Yujiro's Pressure Point feats are similar in skill, but Hayato's is better?

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    • Don't exactly think, that Yujiro rendering people unconscious is comparable to killing people on a cellular level. Or this (idk if we should count it here):

      Brainwashed Miu by having her have complete amnesia (unable to know who she is, what happened even forgot to speak).

      And Hayato sent miu unconscious with a light tap too.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:
      If we're talking ki, Aiki is basically "no u" via ki manip in the bakiverse
      True, I plan to address Aiki through Shibukawa's amazing feats and scale up to Yujiro
      Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?

      That's aura, what any of it has to do with ki? You can't say having a very strong aura gives you immunity to ki based techniques.

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Firephoenixearl wrote: Wait. Fighting Kenichi in Ki manip? Are you sure? Absolutely sure?
      That's aura, what any of it has to do with ki? You can't say having a very strong aura gives you immunity to ki based techniques.

      Oh my bad, the 2nd link should be this:

      Basically she can make hands out of her ki which can pulverise people.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Don't exactly think, that Yujiro rendering people unconscious is comparable to killing people on a cellular level. Or this (idk if we should count it here):

      Brainwashed Miu by having her have complete amnesia (unable to know who she is, what happened even forgot to speak).

      And Hayato sent miu unconscious with a light tap too.

      The reason I consider it impressive is because of the AP gap between them. Even if Yujiro held back, he'd still be insanely stronger (oneshotting a 15KT vs scaling above 0.02 tons) and hitting a vital spot. The skill comes in where he, instead of killing Baki, manipulated his Pressure Point to only knock him out. Cellular death is without a doubt more impressive, but the level of understanding, muscle control, and anatomical knowledge Yujiro is showing is no small feat either

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    • Well it's just pressure points, basically knowledge.

      But if you look at Hayato putting Miu unconscious. We have a 7-C, knocking down a 9-B or 9-A unconscious without killing her. 

      Also in terms of holding back Hayato can actually restrict his power to 1/500'000 of his normal. Superior to both Miu and Kenichi combined even when using 0.0002% of his true power.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Well it's just pressure points, basically knowledge.

      But if you look at Hayato putting Miu unconscious. We have a 7-C, knocking down a 9-B or 9-A unconscious without killing her. 

      Also in terms of holding back Hayato can actually restrict his power to 1/500'000 of his normal. Superior to both Miu and Kenichi combined even when using 0.0002% of his true power.

      That's what Yujiro is doing. A 7-C knocking out a 9-A without killing him, but Hayato's best Pressure Point feat is the cellular death, so I'd say they are comparable, but like Yujiro's feat is like a 7 or 8 and Hayato's is like a 9 or 10 (more likely to be 7 to 10)

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    • I don't think it's very comparable when Hayato does what Yujiro does and even has more aplications. It's a straight up upgrade.

      It'd be different if they had completely different applications. In this case it's straight up more.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      I don't think it's very comparable when Hayato does what Yujiro does and even has more aplications. It's a straight up upgrade.

      It'd be different if they had completely different applications. In this case it's straight up more.

      Right, that's what I'm trying to get at. The feat is impressive, but both fighters ca do it, except Hayato can do that and something more impressive, giving him the win in regards to pressure points. If we agree that Hayato is superior here and nobody has anymore arguments, we can move on to the next argument, right?

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    • I think everyone has had ample time to respond, so the first point goes to Hayato. Next: muscle control. I'll assume Hayato's feat here would be being able to hold back to 1/1,000,000th of his power, so I'll post Yujiro's feat and figure out how much he had to have been holding back in order to not kill the opponent in question, a 10-B, possibly 10-A

      https://imgur.com/a/WzJPJCs

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    • Hmm if we go like that, hayato has also hurt without killing 10B people like thugs or terrorists. Don't really think that's as much skill as it is just normal plot given ability to allow interaction. Otherwise goku would laugh at both for not killing normal people or not nuking the planet by running.

      If we need a feat here we can use hayato acting as 2 people being capable of separating his right side moves from his left, acting so independently he can say 2 sentences simultaneously. Or talk to a single person without anyone else hearing by giving direction to the sound so that it goes to only the destined person and doesn't go into the surroundings.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Hmm if we go like that, hayato has also hurt without killing 10B people like thugs or terrorists. Don't really think that's as much skill. Otherwise goku would laugh at both for not killing normal people or nuking the planet by running.

      Agreed. This shouldn't apply to skill, it's more like just fiction being fiction.

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    • If we can all agree that it isn't a matter of holding back, but instead PIS, I'll move on to the next feat

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    • I'm not sure how this is a skill feat, but I had it listed as one in my notes. If we all agree that this isn't skill, we can move along

      https://imgur.com/a/d9tdap4

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    • Not a skill feat, even I can do that but since we're on the sweat feats shigure cuts a drop of sweat on kenichi's forehead without cutting him.

      Also I will responding tomorrow to whatever points brought up cuz sleep and university

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Not a skill feat, even I can do that but since we're on the sweat feats shigure cuts a drop of sweat on kenichi's forehead without cutting him.

      Also I will responding tomorrow to whatever points brought up cuz sleep and university

      I understand, I will post 1 feat and await your reply before moving forward

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Ok so:

      Hayato is already above that, as Hayato can literally beat the entire verse at the same time (If we take Ougi out), so he's already above having learned martial arts. As for the mastery i'd rather not use it here as mastery can mean any level of mastery so best to stick to feats.

      Xiao Lee, is something Siegfried does differently, but better. He doesn't do it through relaxation, he does it through prediction, but it works against everything, including weapons, arrows, bullets, grabs etc. As for relaxation, Silicardo can do that to escape grabs. Here are some of Siegfrieds feats:

      Can read an opponet's rythym to then use it to become unaffected by attacks and use that power against an opponent

      Is unaffected by the attacks of 3 people all at once and defeats them with ease.

      His counters work even against sharp weapons. And reflects it in the same spots.

      Reflects even arrows.

      Pressure points, ugh...i don't think you wanna go there. These guys have death hax via pressure points xD. But they can also render them useless.

      Yeah Ougi was the only "rival" Hayato ever had. He also had a "hard fight" against Silicardo (but that guy got PIS and CIS'd into losing against what should be fodder to him so hard that i feel bad for him).

      As for prediction, yeah Renka has a similar feat. Remember she's disciple class. Literally insignificant in comparison. 

      Baki looks insanely fast to people cus of no waste in his movement, yeah, so did Hajime.

      Doppo is 10th dan? Yeah Sasaki laughs with his nickname being the 100th dan brawler. xD

      Doppo didn't actually see through the illusion he was cought up in it. Besides people start having illusions when trying to predict Berserker's next attack too.

      Hayato created this, which is basically a better Sangan.

      I need to go take a shower will answer the rest when i get back.

      1. 

      mas·ter1

      /ˈmastər/

      verb

      gerund or present participle: mastering

      acquire complete knowledge or skill in (an accomplishment, technique, or art).

      "I never mastered Latin"


      There are no such things as levels of mastering something. Mastering is having peak knowledge of something. If i have mastered Karate, i have complete knowledge in it. If i have mastered martial art x, i have complete knowledge over it. While i also prefer sticking to feats and upscaling over statements, they're also a huge part of this so let's not ignore it.

      2. This type of "Xiao Lee" was already done by 13yo Baki, with his eyes closed, and against a sword user as well. 

      3. And how skilled are these people? And even then, this isn't THAT of an impressing feat. I can see a top fighter such as Rickson Gracie already doing 1v3s and Baki outskills him so much it's not even funny.

      4. I've covered this in point 2.

      5. Much like blades, it's just something pointy/sharp.

      6. How so? Can i get a scan of that?

      7. Yujiro on the other hand is explictly said to always be on a level no one else is on, basically transcending the rest of the bakiverse. 

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    • 1. Each verse has different meaning for mastery. Same reason why many people can have "mastered the sword" but none can compare to ikki. Cus mastery is dependent on feats.

      2. That is greatly outdone by Siegfried. Against projectiles, grabs etc. There's no comparison there.

      3. Ougi only appeared once to fight hayato so outside of that, featless. Silkwat is a ball of PIS, CIS and inconsistency. So let's just say he's not got luck scaling from rivals.

      As for the rest i don't know which points you're referring to/answering.

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    • So this one should be kinda interesting. When he was younger, Baki fought Yujiro. Baki took advantage of Yujiro not doing anything to get him in a Rear Naked Snake choke, of which Yujiro was able to break out of without moving from one spot https://imgur.com/a/qd2z4ba

      Could Hayato replicate this feat or something better?

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    • That's not skill. That's just Yujiro being able to shake harder than Baki can grip. A difference in AP rather than in skill

      It's different from what Siegfried did to counter the same move. (even though this ain't skill, it's more like flexibility gained through training but eh, close enough)

      Though akisame did the same without the shaking against a comparable opponent.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      That's not skill. That's just Yujiro being able to shake harder than Baki can grip. A difference in AP rather than in skill

      It's different from what Siegfried did to counter the same move. (even though this ain't skill, it's more like flexibility gained through training but eh, close enough)

      Though akisame did the same without the shaking against a comparable opponent.

      He's not shaking him off, he just bends his body and moves to get Baki around to the from swinging and flings him off

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    • https://youtu.be/M1FvswxCTQY I don't like the stupid watermark on the vid, and it's kinda hard to see the nuances of what he's doing in the anime, but you can kinda see it in motion at 1:15 and beyond. He moves forward, which causes Baki to have a "Front Naked Snake Choke" if you will, and uses the momentum of the swing to get him off

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    • He is shaking him though. He first twists his body (to gain momentum), then twists the other way around so that Baki becomes unable to hang on from the back and is actually taken by the momentum and rotated with it.

      It's not skill, it's just him being much stronger. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      He is shaking him though. He first twists his body (to gain momentum), then twists the other way around so that Baki becomes unable to hang on from the back and is actually taken by the momentum and rotated with it.

      It's not skill, it's just him being much stronger. 

      I'm not understanding how that is just strength. You clearly understand what's happening, as you are describing it accurately, but I'm failing to understand how it's only strength, do you mind explaining? After we discuss this, we can move on to the next skill feat, which this next one is quite impressive

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    • Because it's not some tricky technique. It works because "Yujiro can twist hard enough to make Baki lose his grip around him". If baki were stronger, he would have been able to keep holding on, since that is not the case he is carried by the momentum. 

      Basically the same thing you do to a fly on your knuckle. You shake your knuckle. Since the fly cannot hold on to that, she goes away. Doesn't work against things which are about as strong as you.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Because it's not some tricky technique. It works because "Yujiro can twist hard enough to make Baki lose his grip around him". If baki were stronger, he would have been able to keep holding on, since that is not the case he is carried by the momentum. 

      Basically the same thing you do against a fly on your knuckle. You shake your knuckle. Since the fly cannot hold on to that, she goes away. Doesn't work against things which are about as strong as you.

      Ahhhh okay, yeah, I get that. Alright, I'll take the liberty of dismissing this one as a strength feat and move on to the impressive one. I'm about to head to my first class, so my responses might stop for awhile, but I'll try to get back to this whenever I can

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    • Yujiro was able to chop off the face of a 100 year old Kung-Fu master

      Now, your point about "master" really being a verse by verse thing is true, so, for some context on the individual he was able to entirely outclass here, Ryo Kaioh, I have some videos

      The first Kaiohs were able to make the fighting style "Pankeration" go extinct

      Also, just to become a Kaioh candidate, one must punch and kick a boulder into a perfect sphere and extinguish the flame of a candle with the wind from your punches from several feet away. Also, as you can see, Retsu, one of Ryo's students, was able to carve "a magnificent boulder".

      One of Ryo's students, Dorian, the first man from the west to become a Kaioh, was able to complete the boulder challenge, except instead of carving a boulder, he carved a tunnel through a mountain in 1 night

      Another requirement to qualify as a Kaioh is extreme control over the transfer of kinetic energy as well as muscle control (and another look at Dorian's work as well)

      Ryo scales not only above Dorian and Retsu by virtue of being their master (only being surpassed by Retsu after he begins his learning under Kaku), but he is, with his almost 100 years of experience, one of the most skilled Kaiohs alive, the same Kaiohs who, just to be considered for the position, you must be able to do the aforementioned feats, above every other Kaioh with the exception of Kaku, as Han, possibly Li, and Retsu all scale to each other by virtue of Han and Li being comparable and Han and Retsu begin picked for Kaku's personal team in the China v America-Japan team. Now, Kaku scales massively above Ryo, but Ryo scales above every other Kaioh

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    • Hmm? That's skill? He ripped off the face of a much weaker dude, what's so impressive?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Hmm? That's skill? He ripped off the face of a much weaker dude, what's so impressive?

      How skilled the individual was, the fact that the speed difference isn't actually that much, the fact that Yujiro was able to to complete the clean rip without Ryo being able to do anything to save himself or mitigate the damage, and the fact that Yujiro did all of this casually

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    • I see, i get your point, but in that case his skill is rendered moot, simply by how massive the AP gap was. It's not like Yujiro used any technique at all. He just ripped his face right off. The kaku guy couldn't even use any technique against the face rip. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      I see, i get your point, but in that case his skill is rendered moot, simply by how massive the AP gap was. It's not like Yujiro used any technique at all. He just ripped his face right off. The kaku guy couldn't even use any technique against the face rip. 

      Right, the AP gap is indeed massive, but the fact that Yujiro was both able to grab Ryo's face without him even noticing despite the small speed difference and was able to completely throw him uninterrupted and chop his face off while throwing without Ryo, with his insane skill, being able to do anything would (at least to me) indicate some level of skill involved, even if not immediately apparent

      Edit: Also, while it is true Yujiro did not use a technique, he rarely does, even for his skill feats, as his mentality is that he is above human techniques, despite knowing them and using them (though he usually uses them just to show he can counter someone's techniques or to show that he can also do someone's technique, but better)

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    • I mean...sure, it's not an impressive feat was my point. Then i guess here is Tirawit Kokin 1 shotting Kenichi (a superior opponent), because his strength is "different".

      Basically he's a lot more bloodlusted so he insta killed a more skilled opponent so he developed the best strategy.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      I mean...sure, it's not an impressive feat was my point. Then i guess here is Tirawit Kokin 1 shotting Kenichi (a superior opponent), because his strength is "different".

      Basically he's a lot more bloodlusted so he insta killed a more skilled opponent so he developed the best strategy.

      And since Hayato scales above Tirawit, he should be capable of doing the same theoretically, yes? If so, the point will go to Hayato

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    • Tirawit is disciple class. 

      Hayato is Superhuman class. He's like 7 levels beyond him. Besides 1 shotting an opponent using small differences is not all that impressive.

      Example, here's Hayato beating an equal opponent (in all regards), who at the time stated he had a slight advantage, simply because a baby fox  bite his arm.

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    • Alright, I think it's fair to say we've gotten through all the minor stuff, so now we can move on to the real stuff

      First, a skill scale chain

      Yujiro scales in skill vastly above Baki, who in turn scales vastly above Sam Atlas, the best fighter in the professional world, which would include Muhammad Ali, who created his own martial art based on boxing and is stated as having "perfected a universal martial art (boxing)" and also being stated to be the best boxer of all time, which would place him above the likes of Yuri Chakovsky, who could outskill a 13 yo Baki who had minor training with Yujiro, but more importantly, he would scale above Joe Fraiser, who was able to slip passed Retsu Kaioh's defenses (like smoke, hence the nickname "Smokin" Joe Fraiser), SOO Retsu Kaioh who scales closely (slightly above or below, possibly even matching) to Ryo Kaioh and the other Kaiohs comparable to him in NGB during the Raitai tourney, who scales above Retsu during the NGB arc, who matches Baki from the Maximum Tournament in skill, possibly higher by NGB, who should be more skilled than his Beginning of the series key, who spent several years traveling around the world defeating martial arts master, who would scale above normal martial artist, who in turn (obviously) scale above average people

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    • Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.

      As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      1. Each verse has different meaning for mastery. Same reason why many people can have "mastered the sword" but none can compare to ikki. Cus mastery is dependent on feats.

      2. That is greatly outdone by Siegfried. Against projectiles, grabs etc. There's no comparison there.

      3. Ougi only appeared once to fight hayato so outside of that, featless. Silkwat is a ball of PIS, CIS and inconsistency. So let's just say he's not got luck scaling from rivals.

      As for the rest i don't know which points you're referring to/answering.

      I was refering to your lines in order, ignoring the pressure points one because you seem to be debating that with Hanma18. Let me finish my points, i had to leave prematurely. 

      8. Wait, so the "master martial artists" can't predict moves and have to analyze all of the possible ones in order to do so? 13yo Baki could already predict the moves of people who curbstomp other extremely skilled martial artists, and that's 13yo Baki i'm talking about here. Let alone damn Yujiro.

      9. Alright. These seem pretty much like the same thing so let's say they're equally valuable skill feats. 

      10. If we go by titles, Orochi is deemed "The sun of karate" and "god of war". Of course he's not limited to the skill of a 10th dan, i'm pretty sure Doppo would curbstomp any real-life 10th Dans lol.

      11. I think i haven't made myself clear. Doppo did fall under the hypnosis, but his AP was so perfect it didn't change the fight a bit.

      12. What does she mean with "purity" and "empty space" exactly?

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    • 8. Well, that's 2 masters of the same class. And both of those were Dou types (which is strength from anger/explosive force). Whereas Sei types are the ones who can predict.

      10. Yeah, that's why i mentioned the "100th dan". It's not like where he stands in verse has any meaning outside of scaling. A 3rd dan Master is considered the absolute garbage of master classes in Kenichi, yet he can take on 7 high class disciples at he same time.

      11. What are you referring to with "AP"?

      12. I am not sure, cus the way it is explained is differently in 2 different pages. In the previous page it says that it's the 6th sense which allows her to grasp the opponent's movement without following them with their eyes. The next chapter says it's a reaction speed amp. Though she can also do something else, Can take from her power to give to her speed.

      Btw, what kind of scans were you requesting? The scans should be in my text.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.

      As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

      Here's what I was planning: I have a scale for how Yujiro scales above every skilled character in the verse, so if you would actually like me to, I can not only better explain the chain I posted, but provide many other chains just for piece of mind.

      As far as Hayato's if he has 1, it would be good to get for comparison. If he has multiple, post as many as you like, best ones first is preferable. I'll have questions because of my I unfamiliarity with the verse, but since I'll be asking questions, please don't hesitate to ask any about the Bakiverse either. I plan to go further in depth with the chain I posted earlier as well a bit later on

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      2. Yet that type of "Xiao Lee" baki used doesn't even hold a candle to how effective Siegfried's version is, due to Siegfried having far better feats.

      3. It's not 3v1 that's the issue. It's reflecting the attacks of 3 people attacking from 3 different directions all at once. A feat neither Xiao Lee nor Baki's spins have ever shown.

      4. The only issue being, iirc, baki did get hurt quite a bit, same for Xiao Lee when retsu used it. Siegfried doesn't get hurt.

      5. No....? Arrows are projectiles, not swords. The sword just got "pseudo dodged" (i'll use that term for what sieg and baki is doing) and he hit the user back. Arrows are not as easy as the user is usually at a range and arrows lack the weight to push you.

      6. Scans for the? Death hax?

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    • 8. I see, that makes more sense. Still, it's not that remarkable to 2nd place stuff.

      10. I mean, even in real life, 3rd dans don't compare to, let's say, a 6th dan. Because the higher the dan the more time you have to train in order to do the next belt exam, and i'm talking about years here. I'm not entirely sure, but iirc, 9th to 10th dan is 10 years. Let alone 1st to 10th dan. 

      Yeah, simply being a "master" of a martial art won't get you anywhere in Baki as well. As i've said, 13yo Baki curbstomps people who curbstomp Rickson Gracie who is literally a BJJ red belt (highest belt you can have without being one of the original creators of BJJ).

      11. Analytical Prediction. 

      12. But how are these achieved? What's the logical explanation behind this ability?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:
      2. Yet that type of "Xiao Lee" baki used doesn't even hold a candle to how effective Siegfried's version is, due to Siegfried having far better feats.

      3. It's not 3v1 that's the issue. It's reflecting the attacks of 3 people attacking from 3 different directions all at once. A feat neither Xiao Lee nor Baki's spins have ever shown.

      4. The only issue being, iirc, baki did get hurt quite a bit, same for Xiao Lee when retsu used it. Siegfried doesn't get hurt.

      5. No....? Arrows are projectiles, not swords. The sword just got "pseudo dodged" (i'll use that term for what sieg and baki is doing) and he hit the user back. Arrows are not as easy as the user is usually at a range and arrows lack the weight to push you.

      6. Scans for the? Death hax?

      2. What are Siegfried's feats?

      3. That's more like fancy dodging, Baki has the skill to do the same, doesn't seem like a notable skill feats for the magnitude of skill we're talking about here. 

      4. Baki got hurt because, since he had his eyes closed, he had to feel the sword and then dodge. And if you feel the sword, well, you're being hit by it, even if just sliiiiightly. Retsu only got hurt when using his Xiao Lee because it was extremely incomplete, he was against someone thousands of times stronger, who was the best swordsman of the verse. Things that usually stop cuts can't stop Musashi's, dude can literally slash mid-air tree leafs.

      5. Baki isn't being pushed, he's dodging as soon as the sword touches him. Xiao Lee works against missiles, bullets, etc anyways.

      6. Yeah

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    • 2. The ones i showed you. There's also him reflecting attacks using his inner body, Can counter even when he gets attacked by surprise. His style works against grabs too (which i cannot find the scan for right now) etc. There is also Lugh who does all of these but while being completely blind.

      3. Reflecting mind you. And it is still a level of reflection Baki never had.

      4. Sieg has been taken by surprise before and still countered. Lugh is completely blind and still counters without getting damage.

      5. Though when did Xiao Lee work vs missiles or bullets? 

      6. Can use ki to shut off a pressure point on meridians temporarily which basically results in 1 hit kills for reasons explained here. Such a thing can be used on every living being.

      8. Precoging all possible moves, reading thoughts, rythym and more to precog the moves that are incoming. Is actually a pretty high class ability. Remember Sasaki RoR's best ability is precisely this (a better version to be sure, but the same type of ability)

      10. Yeah i know, the point was a garbage master class can basically take on 7 people who're not "master class" at the same time and lose after a very hard fight.

      11. I mean, Rysui Seikuken is a similar feat, however it precogs via "thinking in their position". And the worst thing about that feat from Doppo is that, he never shows remotely comparable analytical prediction again after that and even in that fight, his analytical prediction doesn't work when the move is first used. And lastly, that is not a true illusion, it's just based on how you want the fight to go, so he was just seeing the fight happen as it would normally.

      12.  Can fight opponents she cannot perceive otherwise using a sixth sense which would scale to the Ryouzanpaku masters. Said sixth sense is apparently a 10x reaction/Combat speed amp??? This is all the context.

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    • 2. Well yeah, being catch by surprise/doing it with your eyes closed is the same thing. And Baki does it.

      3. Baki has Aiki that i can imagine working against more than 1 person if the user is skilled enough, what Baki is.

      4. Wll then they're tied to 13yo Baki. They still need something else to be better.

      5. Kaku states it here.  I should have mentioned this when you asked for it in Ikki vs Yujiro but at the time i forgot this statement existed and it's too late now.

      6. How the actual hell is that Death Manipulation? If anything it's "limited durability negation". Any pro MMA fighter can do similar with a kick to the kidneys, by instance. It's just hitting you in a way that you basically lose your body tension, relaxing your muscles, taking more damage. By instance, if i were to receive a punch to the stomach in a fight, i'd feel good pain, but tolerable. Now if i received a punch to the stomach while sleeping it'd be painful as all hell. It's no big deal. Except here the attacker is targetting chi flows, not anything physical. 

      8. Well, everything you said is stuff people who Yujiro upscales from do. Mainly Musashi and Baki.

      10. I see.

      11. Iirc there's a feat exactly like that in Baki. Anyways, Doppo massively upscales from Gaia, who could predict Baki's moves, who's  AP could predict the moves of several martial arts masters, who in turn are way more skilled than Rickson Gracie. Sooo

      12. I don't see how 6th sense warranties a speed amp, but whatever. Many characters in Baki have crazy 6th sense too so it's no big deal.

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    • 2. No, lol. Baki knew it was coming, Siegfried didn't, there's a big difference.

      3. Aiki is not the same as aiki still reflects with the use of hands in some way or the head. Not the same as sieg who does it with actually his inner strength without movement of the body. As for aiki, kenichi also uses the sitting technique gouki does.

      4. They're beyond all forms of reflecting in the baki verse actually, not just 13 y/o baki.

      5. Uhm, without feats im gonna have to say no. A style which doesnt work if it's against the wall taking on nukes seems very outlierish without feats. Especially since no matter how relax you are a missile will nuke the f outta you, cus i never heard of a feather coming out ok from tanking little boy or fat man.

      6. Oh i should've likely posted the scan where kenichi states his body is dying on a cellular level from taking on that technique. Will do that tomorrow cuz I'm on the phone now, but you should be able to find it above in this thread, iirc i mentioned it to baki.

      8. Since when can baki ppl read rythym, thoughts, emotions, feelings, true desires etc?

      11. Doesn't really seem superior to precoging all possible moves and rysui seikuken. As for the scaling most of these feats are from disciple class which I've already explained how insignificant they are in the grand scale of things.

      12. Yeah neither do i, it's a pretty messed up explanation. I just wanted to mention that kenichi characters can do both the 6th sense and the speed amps too.

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    • 2. Baki had his eyes closed, he didn't know exactly when they were gonna hit him before their attacks actually connected, even if just slightly.

      3. While that's true, it doesn't mean it's any less skilled. And that wasn't a sitting technique, that was more like Shibukawa being so hurt he couldn't stand up anymore thanks to all the damage he took, including having his Achilles tendon being bited off. Of course he was eventually defeated, but wasn't biting, the antithesis of Aiki, been one of Jack's signatures moves, he'd have won. 

      4. Why? 

      5. I think Kaku was refering to the actual missiles, not the explosion they do. Anyways, the bullet statement is still there. So yeah, Xiao Lee works against projectiles just the same.

      6. Alright, now that somewhat warranties death manip. But where's the pressure point part? All that seems more like "i damage your ki, you start dying, thus you're weak and i can easily kill you". 

      8. Musashi can read thoughts, Gaia can literally visualize the movements of 13yo Baki who i don't need to introduce anymore, 18yo Baki has AP way better than that of 13yo Baki on top of being able to literally simulate an entire fight with other extremely skilled fighters, Doppo has the hypnosis feat, and Yujiro dwarfs all of them (specially 13yo Baki) in skill to a degree it's not even funny, on top of having his own AP feats.

      11. Point 8

      12. 6th sense comes through fighting experience i think, but we shouldn't mention the speed amps if how they happen is a mistery.

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    • 2. He was still expecting the attack. Closing your eyes isn't off guard. It's like saying in your sleep and with your eyes closed is the same. Off guard from a blind spot yet not getting hurt and knowing the attack is coming and roughly when are not even remotely similar.

      3. Not saying it's not skilled im saying Siegfried outdoes massively in the reflection regard. And it is a sitting technique. He used it because it'd be hard to stand, but it is a sitting technique.

      4. Feats as I said. Massively better feats, lugh is blind and still has better reflection feats against things that either bypasses the reflections in baki or just baki has never shown.

      5. Well, ugh it's easier to xiao lee missiles than normal attacks due to the weight they carry if we're overlooking the explosion. As for bullets they do pierce leaves mid air so that also seems very outlierisht but even then sieg outdoes since he can send projectiles back.

      6. None of that would give cellular level death hax. And kenichi got hit in 1 spot yet his whole body started dying.

      8. Yet none of them are reading the hearts, emotions, feelings, arrhythmia, old wounds etc.

      11. None of those are predicting all possible moves.

      12. How they happen doesn't really matter when they do happen. It just means the series is vague with explaining how it happens outside of reducing strength to increase speed

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah ok good to know. I am not 100% ok with scaling above them as a composite, but since Yujiro's supposedly a master at everything, it's not wrong to scale him so fair enough.

      As for Hayato do i need to mention his scaling chain?

      Here's what I was planning: I have a scale for how Yujiro scales above every skilled character in the verse, so if you would actually like me to, I can not only better explain the chain I posted, but provide many other chains just for piece of mind.

      As far as Hayato's if he has 1, it would be good to get for comparison. If he has multiple, post as many as you like, best ones first is preferable. I'll have questions because of my I unfamiliarity with the verse, but since I'll be asking questions, please don't hesitate to ask any about the Bakiverse either. I plan to go further in depth with the chain I posted earlier as well a bit later on

      Hayato's chain?

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    • Uhhh, massive to say the least.

      There are disciple classes, expert class, master class, supermaster class (and a class that i like to divide Ryouzanpaku Class, even though they are still supermasters they are far stronger than normal supermasters), advanced grandmaster class, and superhuman class.

      A master class can absolutely desimate in seconds 1 Middle class Disciple, 5 very High Class Disciples and 2 Expert Class Disciples at the same time and have a basically non existent chance of losing (their chance of winning against the master class was 1/1 million). And this master class was trash even for master class levels.

      A Supermaster class can literally toy with several Master class opponents. Example here is Sakaki trashing 8 Master Class opponents casually.

      A Ryouzanpaku class like Shigure, held back 7 Supermaster Class opponents , and even though she's a weapons prodigy and stated by other ryouzanpaku class to be "just a maiden" without weapons. Basically toys with 3 supermaster class opponents at the same time using 1 hand while talking on the phone  completely unarmed.

      Then Advanced master class ppl basically laugh at these people, crushes them in moments.

      And Hayato being superhuman class makes the strongest dude in advanced class just look at him and be like "i can't match you huh?". 

      And most of the feats i've mentioned to this point (if not all) are all from disciple or expert class.

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    • First, I will go more in depth on Yujiro's scale chain, and then I will have questions about Hayato's.

      Baki was able to completely outclass Sam Atlas to the point to where the fight was not only decided off-screen with narration from Sam Atlas post-fight, but Sam Atlas perceived Baki as a horrendous monster before fighting, but he also noticed Baki was holding back a yawn throughout their whole fight. Sam Atlas is described as being the best pound-for-pound fighter in the professional world, defending his UFC champion belt for 7 years straight to the point to where he was bored of it. Being the best fighter in the professional world would include being better than Rickson Gracie, whom I believe @KG mentioned earlier, has a 700 to 0 win streak. This also means he'd be better than Ali, who's martial art he created is deemed by virtue of Ali Jr defeating Han Kaioh with it better than higher end mid tiers or lower end high tiers of skill amongst the Kaiohs, who massively outskill even most candidates, who in turn massively outskill most world class martial artists. It is also deemed to be better than normal boxing in general by virtue of not only using it in base, but being able to tag a young Yujiro when using it, making the martial art Ali invented superior to his own boxing, which is superior to the likes of people like Joe Fraiser, who is so talented, he's seen almost emulating smoke when trying to breach someone's defenses. He was even able to make it passed Retsu, for whom you know his feats and scaling and significance of feats (= Ryo > Prime Dorian >= NGB Retsu = MT Baki >>> martial arts masters)

      Do you have anything you'd like me to clear up?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      2. He was still expecting the attack. Closing your eyes isn't off guard. It's like saying in your sleep and with your eyes closed is the same. Off guard from a blind spot yet not getting hurt and knowing the attack is coming and roughly when are not even remotely similar.

      3. Not saying it's not skilled im saying Siegfried outdoes massively in the reflection regard. And it is a sitting technique. He used it because it'd be hard to stand, but it is a sitting technique.

      4. Feats as I said. Massively better feats, lugh is blind and still has better reflection feats against things that either bypasses the reflections in baki or just baki has never shown.

      5. Well, ugh it's easier to xiao lee missiles than normal attacks due to the weight they carry if we're overlooking the explosion. As for bullets they do pierce leaves mid air so that also seems very outlierisht but even then sieg outdoes since he can send projectiles back.

      6. None of that would give cellular level death hax. And kenichi got hit in 1 spot yet his whole body started dying.

      8. Yet none of them are reading the hearts, emotions, feelings, arrhythmia, old wounds etc.

      11. None of those are predicting all possible moves.

      12. How they happen doesn't really matter when they do happen. It just means the series is vague with explaining how it happens outside of reducing strength to increase speed

      2. I see what you mean, while that's true, not only was that 13yo Baki (and we're talking about Yujiro), Xiao Lee also doesn't need to know the attacks are coming in order to work

      3. It's more like a stance, but i get your point. Anyways, has Siegfried ever reflected attacks from people thousands of times stronger than him?

      4. Read 3

      5. Xiao Lee also is attack reflection, ki based tho, similarly to Aiki

      6. Oh no, not celullar level. And even then, it's flimsy. Limited death manip should be alright tho. 

      I see.

      8. I mean, isn't analytical prediction exactly that? Analyzing the characteristics of your current opponent, such as the one you mentioned on top of some other stuff, and then knowing what someone like that would do via skill? And Baki characters who Yujiro upscales from (some more than others) can do that with ease against other people on that skill level.

      11. It's not predicting every move. You can't predict all of the possible moves because only one of them will truly happen. The fighters in that scan are analyzing all the possible moves the other can do and then choose the one they think is the most likely to happen, thus "predicting" it.

      12. I mean, yeah sure it's probably something that requires a decent amount of skill, but there's no confirmation. On the other hand, Doppos' sangan is explictly said to be an ancient technique that not only is he the only user of in the verse (aside from Yujiro obviously) but also is said to need perfect control over the eyes' sinew, so it's better than something essentially featless when it comes to skill.

      ​​​​

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    • This is how above Yujiro is to people who curbstomp people who curbstomp 13yo Baki who curbstomps Tokyo Dome Underground Arena fighters who curbstomp Rickson Gracie who sees professional top fighters as nothing more than "bonitas" (fancy women) and has a 700-0 winstreak in professional fighting.

      There are probably other scaling chains but i think this is the deepest one.

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    • @Baki

      Saying "x >>>>>Y" is useless tbh. Because let's take some random feat like. Hearing really well for example. The feat is hearing someone 1km away. If X's hearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>Y's hearing. All we can say is "he is better". It's not like we can assume what he can do with "better hearing". And Yujiro is mostly above everyone due to knowing literally everything. Against most top tiers he doesn't really win because he can outperform their moves.

      Tl;Dr how long the scaling chain is, is pretty useless, but feel free to ask about Hayato.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @Baki

      Saying "x >>>>>Y" is useless tbh. Because let's take some random feat like. Hearing really well for example. The feat is hearing someone 1km away. If X's hearing >>>>>>>>>>>>>Y's hearing. All we can say is "he is better". It's not like we can assume what he can do with "better hearing". And Yujiro is mostly above everyone due to knowing literally everything. Against most top tiers he doesn't really win because he can outperform their moves.

      Tl;Dr how long the scaling chain is, is pretty useless, but feel free to ask about Hayato.

      To be fair, he wins against literally nobody with skill, he mainly uses brute strength and speed, only shown to have immense skill in their application, but my point was that not only does he supersede each of these people in total skill, but he exceeds their skill in their own specialty. He's a better MMA fighter than Atlas, a better boxer than Ali and Fraiser, and a better master of Kempo than Retsu even at skill Kempo peak, Prime Dorian, and Ryo.

      I have a lot of questions, so I'll be drawing them up soon, just to get a good idea of the skill of the people he scales above

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    • @KG

      2. Well Yujiro's stuck to that feat, for lacking better feats on his own so...

      3. No, because usually the only people "stronger" are at least 2 classes above yours so. If he fights someone stronger it'll usually be against a master class who'll be massively more skilled too. There's nothing along the lines of "fighting someone thousands of times stronger in Kenichi. But there are a ton of fighting someone significantly stronger.

      4. Well It's not just that. Applications matter too. Said reflection works against grabs, multiple opponents etc etc. Just because it can reflect stronger attacks doesn't make it better by default. 

      5. Huh? When? Since when is relaxation ki based?

      6. Stopping the flow of ki kills on a cellular level.

      8. No, analytical prediction can happen for various reasons. You don't assume any form of info analysis unless specifically stated. So kenichi greatly takes this.

      11. It's taking measures against every possible move. But that's for Dou types. Sei types like kenichi can predict by knowing the opponent's hearts and feelings, thinking like his opponents. Can read the movements of an opponent for as long as he maintains eye contact or is touching the opponent. Or even the small vibrations of his body. etc

      12. I mean it's a better Sangan in every way, what's there to argue? And if it's body control you want then this might be interesting.

      Can create an axis in the middle of his body which allows his left and right side to act separately  to the point of being even capable of saying 2 sentences at the same time . And even controling the direction of his sound so that no one else but his target can hear it.

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    • So I guess to kind of cut up my questions into more digestable bites, my first question would be what class would someone like Ali be in in the Kenichiverse? Best boxer (better than someone who can emulate smoke) and created a martial art comparable to 4,000 year old Chinese Kempo and vastly better than normal boxing?

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    • I'll awnser tomorrow because i'm lazy as all hell

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      So I guess to kind of cut up my questions into more digestable bites, my first question would be what class would someone like Ali be in in the Kenichiverse? Best boxer (better than someone who can emulate smoke) and created a martial art comparable to 4,000 year old Chinese Kempo and vastly better than normal boxing?

      With feats like that i'd have trouble classifying him as anything more than Takeda Itsuki (High Class Disciple, or as i like to call them True Disciple, cus anything lower than those is pretty much an insult to skill, as they're pretty much complete fodder for anything past chapter 100 and are most of the time featless)

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    • Okay, that's better than I thought! So to clarify, Itsuki could, in theory, defeat 700 people comparable to himself without losing (1 at a time and with breaks in between), and is more skilled than someone who could, again in theory (since these are very specific instance of what skill can do), emulate smoke? If so, we could be making progress here!

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    • Emulate smoke is skill? Wot?

      As for 700 people, as long as we're not treating stamina as a problem, then everyone would be more than capable of it. Hell, even Middle class would be actually capable of doing it.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Emulate smoke is skill? Wot?

      As for 700 people, as long as we're not treating stamina as a problem, then everyone would be more than capable of it. Hell, even Middle class would be actually capable of doing it.

      Yeah, Smokin Joe's movements are so fast and fluid, he kinda has the sense manip like the high tiers (but to a much lesser extent). Would you like me to link a scene as to better show what I mean?

      Okay, that's about what I expected. It's a decent feat, but fodder to people like Hayato and Yujiro, who are both at least capable of doing that all at once

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    • Yeah a scan would be better or a link to a chapter. Whichever is easier to provide.

      Actually even middle class disciples can be the top of a capoiera team and fight with more proficiency than 3 people at once. If we count in old Freya (start of the series), then Middle Class is part of Ragnarok's big 3. A group of 3 members which whole and entire alliance (thousands of people) down with fear alone.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah a scan would be better or a link to a chapter. Whichever is easier to provide.

      Actually even middle class disciples can be the top of a capoiera team and fight with more proficiency than 3 people at once. If we count in old Freya (start of the series), then Middle Class is part of Ragnarok's big 3. A group of 3 members which whole and entire alliance (thousands of people) down with fear alone.

      https://youtu.be/tYHyKuL2uX0 So 4:00-5:45 is where they explain it, and how it's not talent, but something he had to work to over the course of many wins and losses, and 9:45 is where you can actually see what Ali was talking about in action

      https://youtu.be/eMiyD1aZCpY this is the rest of the fight, but nothing notable really happens. Retsu beats him by abusing a pressure point and he apparently talks with his dead father while knocked out

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    • That's flowery language. He just has a strong punch and can attacks when you try to attack him.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      That's flowery language. He just has a strong punch and can attacks when you try to attack him.

      But it's specifically outlined by Ali that it's not just a nickname or moniker, he's the real deal so to speak

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    • Yeah, more like "he lives up to his name" not "he becomes gas and obstructs your field of vision". It's more to mean that "his fighting style is indeed like fighting gas", for unknown reasons but not because he produces or creates gas.

      Similar to how i can say "fighting against Xiao Lee is indeed like fighting against a feather". It's not because the dude becomes an actual feather or has feather properties, it is because the way he takes attacks is similar to how a feather does. 

      PS: With the new upgrades Hayato became 7-C (he may get some hax later on, but after im done with the verse, which is gonna have to be in like a month or so, since i have my university exams soon, we may check whether it'll be a good fight between Hayato and Yujiro).

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah, more like "he lives up to his name" not "he becomes gas and obstructs your field of vision". It's more to mean that "his fighting style is indeed like fighting gas", for unknown reasons but not because he produces or creates gas.

      Similar to how i can say "fighting against Xiao Lee is indeed like fighting against a feather". It's not because the dude becomes an actual feather or has feather properties, it is because the way he takes attacks is similar to how a feather does. 

      PS: With the new upgrades Hayato became 7-C (he may get some hax later on, but after im done with the verse, which is gonna have to be in like a month or so, since i have my university exams soon, we may check whether it'll be a good fight between Hayato and Yujiro).

      Oh yeah no, right, that's what I meant by "emulate". He can fight like he's smoke, but he doesn't actually become smoke (that'd be fuckin crazy). He's just skilled at hitting and pressuring in a fashion that's reminiscent of fight a cloud of smoke

      First off, lemme know when your exams start so I can wish you well, and second, sure thing, just hit me up after the upgrades

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    • Yeah, but that's not really a form of quantifiable skill. Because it can mean anything, it's not something concrete we can evaluate.

      I think i will do well enough in the exams...or i hope so at least.

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    • Call upon your Rakudai training to outskill the exams

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah, but that's not really a form of quantifiable skill. Because it can mean anything, it's not something concrete we can evaluate.

      I think i will do well enough in the exams...or i hope so at least.

      I'd say it's fairly apparent what that chalks up to when watching the fight: he was skilled enough to either mitigate the affects of Retsu's punches to the point to where he could continue to pressure with no issue, or at the very least he was being affect (as his face would suggest several times, though I don't know if his outward appearance is solid enough evidence) and he was still able to put himself into an advantageous position, which would be even more impressive. As far as his hits, he has able to punch in a fashion that bypassed Retsu's defenses, even though he wasn't landing any clean hits, making his offense at least comparable to Retsu's defense.

      I have no doubts that you'll kill the exams, you've got it in the bag

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    • So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

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    • NotoriouSoda wrote:
      So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

      The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually

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    • NotoriouSoda wrote:
      So Yujiro vs Hayato when?

      Whoever does this, please bloodlust both

      ​​​​​​Unbloodlusted Yujiro isn't as fun 

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      NotoriouSoda wrote:
      So Yujiro vs Hayato when?
      The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually

      The main problem isn't getting the upgrades. It's whether it'll be fair post upgrades. As he may gain some passive aura hax, which may or may not turn this into a stomp.

      @Baki

      Well it's nothing directly quantifiable nor impressivly skillful. Start of series Siegfried was Middle Class disciple, so i'd say mid class disciple is where they would stand. Middle class disciple is your classical "good but either lack of feats, or gets fodderized by the rest".

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    • I mean, Yujiro has his passive aura hax too 

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    • Doesn’t Yujiro have more AP along with a ton of amps?

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    • Well yeah but who knows

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      NotoriouSoda wrote:
      So Yujiro vs Hayato when?
      The real fight will be after the upgrades. @Earl isn't sure when he can get to them because of exams, but they'll be done eventually
      The main problem isn't getting the upgrades. It's whether it'll be fair post upgrades. As he may gain some passive aura hax, which may or may not turn this into a stomp.

      @Baki

      Well it's nothing directly quantifiable nor impressivly skillful. Start of series Siegfried was Middle Class disciple, so i'd say mid class disciple is where they would stand. Middle class disciple is your classical "good but either lack of feats, or gets fodderized by the rest".

      That's a good thing, because that makes most boxers in the Bakiverse roughly somewhere within Middle Class, so we can work up from there, like where Kaiohs and master Kaiohs place, to people like Doppo and Shibukawa, to people like Baki, Kaku, and Musashi, to finally Yujiro

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    • Just to clarify. Not "middle class". Middle disciple class. So basically 1 class above bottom.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Just to clarify. Not "middle class". Middle disciple class. So basically 1 class above bottom.

      Right, right. These guys aren't exactly bottom of the barrel per say, but, well, Middle disciples are 2nd to last on the totem pole, and Smokin Joe had 1 fight and lost, as well as Ali having 2 fights and horrendously lost one and only one the other because his son had been beaten within an inch of his life 3 times in a row and then fought Ali. Then of course there's Rickson Gracie with the 700-0 record, so all either bottom of the barrel stuff or close to it, a foundation if you will

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    • Moving right along then, my next question: as some who scales up from Joe, Rickson, and Ali individually and has been fighting people like them and becoming bored of it for 7 years with no losses, where would Sam Atlas end up? I'm thinking low end High Disciple or high end Mid Disciple at the very least, as how much higher he scales from someone like Ali is unquantifiable, but what would you venture to say the max is, given his scaling and feats?

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    • Without anything concrete on how much better he is it's gonna stay on Mid Disciple still. Mid Disciples can stomp other mid disciples ez diff so...

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Without anything concrete on how much better he is it's gonna stay on Mid Disciple still. Mid Disciples can stomp other mid disciples ez diff so...

      So at max he's likely the higher end of Mid Disciple? If so, I can work with that

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    • Just to kind of keep track of the discussion so far in case I have anything incorrect,

      Sam Atlas would be a higher end Mid Disciple class, scaling above Ali, who we agree is roughly middle Mid Disciple, who created a martial art based on boxing that is better than it and is comparable to the 4,000 year old Kempo and who is the world's best boxer, who scales above someone like Alexander Gallen, a wrestler on par with other Maximum Tournament fighters, all of who are above world class athletes and master martial artist, or Morio Sonada, a fighter more accomplished than boxing Champion Yuri Chakovsky, who in turn would scale above someone like Chiharu Shiba who, while not skilled in the traditional sense, created an entire style based on injuring or damaging his own body to do far worse to the opponent. To do this and still be not only alive, but be able to continue fighting shows an extreme level of knowledge of not only the physical limits of both his body and the opponents, but the knowledge of fighting to know what parts of his body are worth breaking in exchange for a certain part of his opponent’s body in order to cause maximum impact while mitigating his disadvantage as much as possible, scaling him to being comparable to lower in skill than most Maximum Tournament fighters, but still above the likes of average Martial Arts masters, at the very least average Martial Artists (an example of  skill in "Chiharuism" or "Chiharu-Dou" would be when Baki used it against him to not only fracture his own skull head butting Chiharu's leg as he attempted to kick, breaking Chiharu's leg, but he also rammed his eyes into Chiharu's fingers at massively high speeds when Chiharu "attempted" to poke his eyes out (though he didn't actually intend to eye-poke Baki), leaving his eyes relatively unharmed, but breaking both of Chiharu's fingers).

      If we are in agreement with this, we can continue

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    • Yeah sure, higher end mid class disciple is fine.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yeah sure, higher end mid class disciple is fine.

      Right on. I've got a few more questions, but I'd like to make sure you don't have any questions of your own so far. Anything I can help you with, or are you good for now?

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    • Im good.

      Not like i care about the feats of anything middle class

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    • Almost done putting the finishing touches on some skill feats here, sorry it's taking a while

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    • Sure don't worry.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @KG

      2. Well Yujiro's stuck to that feat, for lacking better feats on his own so...

      3. No, because usually the only people "stronger" are at least 2 classes above yours so. If he fights someone stronger it'll usually be against a master class who'll be massively more skilled too. There's nothing along the lines of "fighting someone thousands of times stronger in Kenichi. But there are a ton of fighting someone significantly stronger.

      4. Well It's not just that. Applications matter too. Said reflection works against grabs, multiple opponents etc etc. Just because it can reflect stronger attacks doesn't make it better by default. 

      5. Huh? When? Since when is relaxation ki based?

      6. Stopping the flow of ki kills on a cellular level.

      8. No, analytical prediction can happen for various reasons. You don't assume any form of info analysis unless specifically stated. So kenichi greatly takes this.

      11. It's taking measures against every possible move. But that's for Dou types. Sei types like kenichi can predict by knowing the opponent's hearts and feelings, thinking like his opponents. Can read the movements of an opponent for as long as he maintains eye contact or is touching the opponent. Or even the small vibrations of his body. etc

      12. I mean it's a better Sangan in every way, what's there to argue? And if it's body control you want then this might be interesting.

      Can create an axis in the middle of his body which allows his left and right side to act separately  to the point of being even capable of saying 2 sentences at the same time . And even controling the direction of his sound so that no one else but his target can hear it.

      2. Not really, and even then, Xiao Lee >>>>>> that stuff 13yo Baki did. The norm is that anything Baki does, specially 13yo Baki, unless stated something only he can do, Yujiro can as well.

      3. Well, if we go by the "fighting someone stronger" thing, Doppo, Goki Shibukawa, Kaku Kaioh, Baki himself, all fought people who could one-shot them.

      4. That's true, however we're debating skill here. Which ones needs more skill to be used? That's what we should be debating here. 

      5. I was refering to Offensive XiaoLee, that part is ki manip. Defensive XiaoLee is the body relaxation stuff.

      6. I don't really see what part of this is pressure points tho.

      8. While that's true, Analytical Prediction is basically Precognition via Information Analysis + lots of skill. What you're arguing is the information analysis part, and if we go into that territory, Kaku Kaioh can identify your fighting style by glancing at you and Yujiro has that IA of his i think you're already familiar with.

      11. Some secondary characters from the first manga had feats similar to these.  While these precognitions have different levels of information analysis, in the end Baki's feats of the prediction part are better.

      12. X amp being better than Y amp doesn't necessarily say that amp X needs more skill than amp Y.


      Well, Baki can dislocate and fix his shoulder joints at will, and Kaku can do the same with his jaw to minimize the damage of certain hits. Xiao Lee needs for you to train until you make your body, that is naturally stiff, handle attacks like a feather. You have, on Kaku's own words, "leave your body behind, escape from it, and make your body have the flexibility of a feather". As i've said, it needs more than a century of training to fully master. Then there's Doppo's sangan that is also body control but i'd say not as good. 

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    • 2. Yeah but they lack any better feats.

      3. All of which were people significantly less skilled, which is the oposite of what happens in Kenichiverse.

      4. You can't quantify superhuman skill, you can barely quantify human skill. That's why we go with the "which would be more useful in a 1v1 situation".

      5. That is also relaxation + strengthening, but Xiao Lee's getting revised soon, so i guess arguing too much on this point is useless.

      6. Ki manip. Another girl could chi manip into pulverizing people.

      8. Both of them pale in comparison really. Noticing the fighting style from a glance is the most basic of basics in kenichiverse.

      11. Hardly.

      12. Yeah but you can't quantify that, and in combat it would plainly be better.

      Not all that impressive compared to Hayato.

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    • Bump.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Bump.

      Sorry, I'm almost done. I've got like 3 high tiers in skill left to place and feats to grab for them. It gets kind of hard to differentiate between strength and speed, and skill higher up

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    • Finally done. To kinda give a better picture of where we are, I'll start at the very bottom. Ryuji Tokura is a character in Baki that is literally so unskilled, a lack of skill is listed as a weakness on his page on this site. Richard Filth would scale slightly above this, as he has fairly marginal skill in fighting, but has definitely been carried to Maximum Tournament levels by his strength and durability. Zulu scales above him, as he's deemed in both mindset and fighting style to be on par with an animal also scaling above normal people and entering combat fighters and martial artists territory. Next, we have Chiharu, who we discussed earlier. He'd scale roughly lower than world class fighters, champions, and higher end martial artists, possibly masters. Yuri, Morio, and Gallen, all discussed earlier, are the baseline for champions and martial arts masters like we'd see in real life. Then we get to Ali and Sam Atlas, the peak of professional fighting in the Bakiverse. Now, we can finally get to the ~mid tiers, of which there are quite a few.

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    • To start at the bottom of the barrel of mid tiers, Sikorsky not only scales above all of the prior mentioned fighters in basic combat skills, but he has a special technique he invented where he is able to cut people just by precisely angling his knuckles. I'm thinking he'd still be Mid Disciple, as he doesn't scale much higher in overall combat skill than the low-tiers, and while the knuckle cutting technique is impressive, compared to the others in the Bakiverse, it's just a neat trick, so I suspect it's not that impressive compared to the Kenichiverse either

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    • Kenichi could cut people with his hands when he was still a mid class disciple so eh....

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Kenichi could cut people with his hands when he was still a mid class disciple so eh....

      Yeah, I figured as much lol. Aight, moving on to someone kinda worth their salt I guess

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    • Even amongst the fighters at the Maximum Tournament, all of which are top tier martial arts masters and champion athletes, Jack Hanma was a stand-out, being able to out maneuver many brilliant fighters, though he spent the majority of his time bullying other fighters with his superior strength and speed. Despite this, he does have some fairly impressive showings of feats in that, as a pit fighter with no formal training, he was still able to pick up a martial arts technique like Nukite. He was also able to pick up the basics of Aiki after fighting Shibukawa.. It's such a difficult martial art to learn that only 10 people in the last 100 years have mastered it, and only one of them was able to use it in combat (also the only person to ever do so). Jack, again despite no martial arts training, was able to apply Aiki in combat after only fighting it once. He was also able to develop a hard counter to Aiki: the Bite, showing that his level of understanding of the art superpasses just mimicking moves, showing that he has a conceptual understanding of Aiki and it's properties.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Just to give the scan for when that happened.

      Changed his style into Shigure which allowed him to cut things using his bare hands.

      Thanks for this btw, I was wondering after the fact how exactly he does it, but figured it would just derail to ask and that we'd moved passed the feat

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    • I mean most of them get AP stomped by Jack so an eh feat at most. Understanding the basics of a style is nothing that impressive. And the counter he invented was a no brainer. He can reflect attacks, but what happens if i bite? It wasn't some complex counter.

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    • It was more like "huh, biting is working and this is one of my main moves, guess i'll do that from now on". It's really not a skill feat

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    • The man took the calcium for his bones regularly.

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    • All true, but considering he was able to use Aiki in a fight at all, he was able to do something nobody else has ever been able to do. Even Shibukawa had to train for years and master Aiki, Jack has no formal training in any martial art and was still able to replicate Aiki in combat

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    • Ok, but he did very very basic stuff. It's not like he replicated Aiki, and understanding fighting styles mid fight and countering them is something mid class Kenichi could do (Against Seigfried who was reflecting his attacks).

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Ok, but he did very very basic stuff. It's not like he replicated Aiki, and understanding fighting styles mid fight and countering them is something mid class Kenichi could do (Against Seigfried who was reflecting his attacks).

      Right, only basic stuff. That's actually a pretty similar example, so I suppose we're still in that area

      Ive got the next guy we can figure out: Hector Doyle. I'll split his feats up to be addressed individually as there are a few more than the normal guys up til now



      He is a trained assassin with skill above the likes of Sikorsky and Jack, who scale to the mid-high tiers in skill for the Maximum Tournament.

      His proficiency in weapons (though Yujiro doesn't use weapons, it's painfully clear that his martial arts skills are vastly above anything Doyle could do with his weapons) allows Doyle to defeat high tiers from the Maximum Tournament as well as either temporarily defeat or evenly clash and lose to main cast members

      Was able to survive an ambush from fellow convict Yanagi despite being half blind and not knowing about Yanagi's poison, as well as use his new found proficiency in Karate (particularly the move Seiken) and his tricks to escape Yanagi's ambush and swim to a cave to rest while 100% blind.

      Was able to have a comparable (but definitely worse than) Seiken to karate genius Katsumi Orochi after only practicing for minutes, possibly hours.

      After being imprisoned by Oliva, Doyle's blindness forced him to train and hone his hearing to insane levels

      After realizing that he could train his senses better if he had fewer of them, Doyle deafened himself, training his sense of feeling to the point that he can now feel the vibration that make sound as well as feel extremely small occurrences around him (he could "hear" the wings of bats flapping in his cell, as well as feel the wind their wings were generating)

      Where does Doyle end up? Still Mid Disciple?

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    • Seiken is pretty much a punch shot from the waist, being good at it is no big deal 

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Seiken is pretty much a punch shot from the waist, being good at it is no big deal 

      Yeah, the move itself is no biggie, the feat part comes in with it being decently comparable to Katsumi's, Katsumi basically being the Jesus of karate

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    • Ok so Doyle:

      None of those were anything impressive really.

      His weapons do not scale to Yujiro either way, so saying "yujiro's martial arts are better than his weapon mastery" is flawed for reasons you can understand (you can't compare the 2). 

      His Seiken as KG said, is nothing impressive. And him performing a good Seiken doesn't really mean much as he just performed a single move from a style. Example it may take years to be master Breakdancing, but it doesn't take years to learn a single basic move. 

      Escaping with his life is....eh. I can't attribute him to High Disciple class, because in terms of hearing Lugh dwarfs him FAR too much. 

      The rest about feeling (and even hearing), both are things Yujiro wouldn't scale to. Yujiro may be a better fighter, but it doesn't mean his hearing or feeling is better. 

      Im still having trouble giving him any more than Mid Class Disciple, but i guess i may give him a borderline high class disciple. Because it's unclear what kinds of disciples fall under Mid and High (it's basically just headcanon from my and the kenichi wiki's part, just because disciples start from chapter 1 and go to chapter 582, so they grow quite a fucking bit. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      Ah, damn. Since Yujiro doesn't scale to him for most of his stuff that actually gives him his rating, I'd say toss the Doyle feats. I'll get the next guy's feats ready

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    • Next Baki boi: Hanayama. His fighting skill is actually kinda shit, but he's got some techniques that are kinda impressive as I understand it (one may actually not be that impressive, the other is impossible irl). So, first technique he created is Destructive Force, which, by multiplying his speed, weight, and grip strength, he somehow transforms his grip strength into striking strength power. Dunno if that's that impressive, but seeing as he was able to punch someone using lifting strength, it at least seems impressive. His other impressive technique, Vice Grip, allows him to grab his opponent's body parts (such as arms, or legs), and then hold it so tight that it explodes due to the blood restriction, making that body part useless. This is apparently different from just having good grip strength, as 1) this is impossible to replicate irl even with a higher grip strength that Hanayama, and 2) Oliva does something similar in season 2 of Baki while on a mission, but just crushes the enemy's hand as one would expect: bones crushed, joints broken, etc.

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    • You kind of answered your own point there "his fighting skill is actually kinda shit". Most of his stuff is just pure raw strength. And those 2 techniques, they were never explained to be skill iirc. So it's just Baki being Baki. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      You kind of answered your own point there "his fighting skill is actually kinda shit". Most of his stuff is just pure raw strength. And those 2 techniques, they were never explained to be skill iirc. So it's just Baki being Baki. 

      Right-O, Hanayama gets trashed. On to Spec, the "God Hands of Kung Fu" (or something like that). Not only does his nickname alone denote something rivaling Kaioh status and/or skill rivalling high tier karatekas like Suedo and Katou, possibly even Katsumi, but (something more concrete) his display with Apnea Rush. In a word, Apnea Rush is just a skill that allows Spec to be able to control his breathing algorithms, allowing him to attack at top speed without any breaks. While developing this technique to control his breathing his impressive considering what can be done in that span of time, the real impressive part comes in with what he can do in those 5 minutes. He's able to throw over a hundred punches in under 5 seconds, and can still maintain his pattern for 5 minutes straight. He's apparently so good at throwing out these barrages that not only is a counterattack impossible, but he can melt both human bone and metal

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    • Something about the scaling you're making that i love is "X scales to Y, but Y is better and we'll get to their feats later". I mean just ugh, make up your mind, are you gonna go from bottom to top or are you gonna downscale, cus for example you haven't brought up feats for Kaiohs or Katsumi so how is the scaling supposed to make sense? xD

      Apnea Rush is mostly just speed and raw strenght (on the x punches per minute and can melt metal). The breathing control is part skill, but im pretty sure every high tier athlete does that when making their best runs, controling their breathing to make more actions than normal. Or what Eminem does to sing that fast while still being able to breathe. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Something about the scaling you're making that i love is "X scales to Y, but Y is better and we'll get to their feats later". I mean just ugh, make up your mind, are you gonna go from bottom to top or are you gonna downscale, cus for example you haven't brought up feats for Kaiohs or Katsumi so how is the scaling supposed to make sense? xD

      Apnea Rush is mostly just speed and raw strenght (on the x punches per minute and can melt metal). The breathing control is part skill, but im pretty sure every high tier athlete does that when making their best runs, controling their breathing to make more actions than normal. Or what Eminem does to sing that fast while still being able to breathe. 

      I brought up Kaioh candidates earlier *single tear* candidates being massively outskilled by even the most basic of Kaioh

      Yes, they can all do it, but not to the extent of Spec to be able to do that much stuff that fast and not take a breath (except maybe Em, that man is a monster.)

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    • I see, well everyone and their grandmothers can send shockwaves in Kenichi so it is nothing too out of the ordinary.

      As for Spec, you failed to dethrone Em bruh it is still within the realm of normally possible, it is nothing too crazy. So still High Class Disciple. Btw High Class is a huge tier you start getting into Seikuken, Ryusui Seikuken, Death Hax, flow reading etc etc. 

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    • I can't argue anymore thanks to the events mentioned at the last post i made on my message wall.

      Baki18, feel free to continue the arguing i was having with Earl

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      I see, well everyone and their grandmothers can send shockwaves in Kenichi so it is nothing too out of the ordinary.

      As for Spec, you failed to dethrone Em bruh it is still within the realm of normally possible, it is nothing too crazy. So still High Class Disciple. Btw High Class is a huge tier you start getting into Seikuken, Ryusui Seikuken, Death Hax, flow reading etc etc. 

      On the one hand, I'm happy I've come this far. On the other hand, there's a long journey ahead...

      Right, on to the next B O I. Next up, we have a character with actual skill credentials, a Mr Dorian Kaioh.

      First, to get the established stuff out of the way, he is skilled enough to causally do the shockwave feat though in this tier of Kenichi, that's kinda fodder I suppose as well as he is able to casually carve a hole through a mountain with nothing but his hands and feet in one night (I say casually as he was able to do this as a Kaioh candidate. Not only did he become a Kaioh, he became a higher end Kaioh, at least above average)

      Next is a stealth feat. He escaped an Alcatraz-like island prison and swim to Japan all before anyone even noticed he was gone. https://imgur.com/a/v1RKkMd (Yujiro has Stealth Mastery as well and should upscale, supported by his actual feat)

      He was able to completely outclass a NGB Katsumi who is comparable in skill to a NGB Retsu who is a top 5 Kaioh, ranking behind Kaku and somewhat tying with Han and Ryo, all of whom scale above normal Kaiohs who in turn scale massively above candidates who we discussed earlier https://imgur.com/a/YdlFWab https://imgur.com/a/HpglJ9F https://imgur.com/a/ckP5VCq

      He is almost able to gain a sizeable advantage on Retsu with just his beard hair https://imgur.com/a/nTOqB9S and proceeds to become a flamethrower with nothing but a bottle of alcohol and a lighter https://imgur.com/a/a6MBnDf

      He was able to slip Doppo's defense, who scales massively above Katsumi and sizably above Retsu in skill, out doing every Kaioh alive save for Kaku https://imgur.com/a/pShM2Tg

      Can dress a wound on the fly (could be useful given a moment of reprieve, with Yujiro knowledge of fighting and anatomy, he should massively upscale) https://imgur.com/a/dzTjjsx

      Is good at using situational weaponry https://imgur.com/a/URrAmLH (Yujiro likely doesn't scale tho)

      Knows a technique to prevent from being blinded by blood flicked directly into his eye https://imgur.com/a/a1NEAHE

      Is able to flick a shard of glass into the eye of Katou, a Karate fighter that scales below (but not significantly) Katsumi, but also uses underhanded tricks https://imgur.com/a/HPS64CW

      Dominate's Katou https://imgur.com/a/Qp4nXd8

      He can sing beautifully https://imgur.com/a/mRiPzP3 

      Another stealth feat (though Yujiro doesn't scale to this one), good at disguising himself https://imgur.com/a/mzaHW5T

      Stopped his fall from a considerable height with nothing but a wire (same wire used to severe Doppo's hand, yet he is unscathed as well)  https://imgur.com/a/xRVXDPE

      Even after eating shit from Doppo, he's instantly ready to counterattack https://imgur.com/a/N3jxoyx

      Is able to use his teeth as projectiles after Doppo decides to become a dentist https://imgur.com/a/jd9wceX (Yujiro possibly scales, at least to precision aspect)

      Has some kind of technique that hypnotizes people https://imgur.com/a/3ZE4Hz5 https://imgur.com/a/JBqFeqY https://imgur.com/a/xXXM7nx https://imgur.com/a/3uSJV34 (Yujiro likely doesn't scale, as it isn't outlined as a martial arts technique specifically, though this hypnosis is important to remember for when we get to Doppo)

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    • I'll reply when I'm back from school.

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    • Anyway onto our Dorian baby here:

      Carving a hole is an AP feat.

      Stealth ugh. I doubt anything in Baki is beating this: Can slip into a massive crowd of people while simultaneously keeping track of everyone's blind spot and hiding his existence in such spots passing by completely unnoticed. While this here is performed and explained by Hayato himself, Miu is capable of doing it too (about High Class Disciple level), and Kenichi was capable of doing it too (it was never shown, but that was training for a certain leg technique, which he learns, so it's fair to say he completed that training). 

      Scaling above people is scaling, not a feat, if their feats were outdone/discussed it doesn't mean much. 

      That's really not skill. That alcohol part is what we did when we were in middle school (either that or with deodorant + lighter).

      More scaling, will discuss everyone's feats rather than scaling.

      That dressing a wound on the fly while no one in Disciple class is capable of any kind of healing, i will just post this, because no one in Baki can outdo the healing in Kenichi. Ki Holding even allows him to heal people. (Basic stuff). Brought Apachai back from the dead using a killing knife and alcohol. (From a Supermaster class, but barely matters considering how stupid this shit is xD).

      Yujiro doesn't scale, should i really argue this then? Besides, not even anything impressive, there are weapon users even in mid class disciple.

      Throwing glass into someone's eyes? Not exactly impressive.

      Scaling.

      Doesn't scale.

      That's more AP on being able to hold his own weight with 1 hand. 

      Endurance, if i show you the endurance feats of Kenichi's verse you'll be amazed.

      Spitting shit out, is not impressive skill.

      Ok i guess i'll keep this in mind. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:


      It's not an AP feat (or at least that's not how it's portrayed) in this instance. The skill in this instance comes from the fact that 1) it was an almost perfectly circular tunnel, 2) the tunnel runs through a mountain yet the tunnel is carved in a manner that it's completely supported throughout the tunnel with no support beams or tools, and 3) he didn't just punch and kick as hard as he could (that might've caused a collapse like discussed in point 2), he chipped away at the mountain piece by piece in the same fashion that other Kaiohs carve their boulders to be perfect spheres. This required slow, methodical chipping away with punches and kicks as not to collapse the tunnel, as to make it an almost perfect circlular tunnel, and yet he was able to do it all in 1 night. In hindsight, it is an AP feat, but not nearly as impressive as the skill feat aspect. Even Hanayama or Baki could've carved that tunnel by season 1 or 2 with AP, but it wouldn't have been functional, nearly as neat, and definitely not like a Kaioh

      Baki can, but he uses Instinctive Reaction, so he does need a technique to do it

      I'm just scaling Dorian up from NGB Katsumi. I plan to touch on how Yujiro scales to Katsumi at his peak later, and what I meant by that was that Yujiro would also be capable of doing to Katsumi what Dorian did

      The precision of the beard hair almost catching Retsu's eye is a skillful endeavor. I was iffy about the fire tho (bruh what kind of school...)

      True, I will address Doppo later

      You right, Bakiverse only really has one super-healer point taken

      The skill to actually land 1 shard of glass in someone's eye, also considering that someone has the reactions of a martial artist comparable to or better than masters is quite impressive imo

      That one is clearly obvious: Katou doesn't really have that many notable feats, but he's a Karate fighter of world class level skill (scales considerably above the likes of Yuri, Morio, etc), and Dorian plays him like a fiddle. Yujiro scales massively above this feat

      He also didn't bifurcate himself with a wire that casually sliced Doppo's hand off with a tug. Their durabilities are comparable, yet Dorian wasn't sliced in half with a hell of a lot more force moving against the wire

      Eating the punch isn't the feat, the feat was the fact that he was visibly rocked by the hit, but was easily able to get into a position to counterattack

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    • Mostly AP, it's just trimming it down, it is an AP/Durability feat in verse, remember how people's hands were bleeding when trying to do those? As for the mountain not collapsing, there exist tunels irl the mountain doesn't collapse. 

      Rly? Im interested, scan.

      Will argue their feats as they come then. Im just saying, scaling is useless. We're debating just feats here.

      Is it really though? It's just a version of the thing I did in middle school (inb4 middle school me becomes the most skilled person) where we would empty our pens and shoot paperballs by blowing on them to hit our friends. He's doing the same thing, with his fingers instead. It's nothing too insane. Besides, Yujiro doesn't have a beard. As for the school, come on did you not do that before, while maybe not on school grounds but in the neighbourhood with the doges. 

      I mean it's not like he managed to react to those shards of glasses, so skill had little to do with it. 

      Those aren't quantifiable feats as i said, best stick to the feats.

      Yeah, so the explanation is skill? Also didn't he hold on to the plastic part instead of the wire?

      >Counter attack

      >In High Class Disciple Siegfried Exists

      >A dude who's insane at countering.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Mostly AP, it's just trimming it down, it is an AP/Durability feat in verse, remember how people's hands were bleeding when trying to do those? As for the mountain not collapsing, there exist tunels irl the mountain doesn't collapse. 

      Rly? Im interested, scan.

      Will argue their feats as they come then. Im just saying, scaling is useless. We're debating just feats here.

      Is it really though? It's just a version of the thing I did in middle school (inb4 middle school me becomes the most skilled person) where we would empty our pens and shoot paperballs by blowing on them to hit our friends. He's doing the same thing, with his fingers instead. It's nothing too insane. Besides, Yujiro doesn't have a beard. As for the school, come on did you not do that before, while maybe not on school grounds but in the neighbourhood with the doges. 

      I mean it's not like he managed to react to those shards of glasses, so skill had little to do with it. 

      Those aren't quantifiable feats as i said, best stick to the feats.

      Yeah, so the explanation is skill? Also didn't he hold on to the plastic part instead of the wire?

      >Counter attack

      >In High Class Disciple Siegfried Exists

      >A dude who's insane at countering.

      Right, but those irl tunnels were carved over a considerable amount of time with tools and are supported by beams. Dorian's tunnel supports itself due to how he carved it

      This chapter to Shibukawa https://mangaowl.com/reader/2418/739674 and this one to the crowd https://mangaowl.com/reader/2418/684190

      But paper balls and spit balls have a density that is conducive to something like that, hair isn't, which I believe is the impressive part Yujiro could use one of his long-ass Super Saiyan hairs , and nah, I never did anything cool as a kid hate to see it

      Even  so, to hit a target as small as an eye with an itty bitty shard while getting rushed is worth something, no?

      Not quantifiable how? Maybe Katou has a feat that would make it more clear how impressive Dorian's feat is

      I'd think so, as it's consistently portrayed as being able to dice main cast level fighters with ease. The only thing I can think of is skill. Plastic part? I wasn't aware of any plastic part, it was my understanding the the whole wire was metal, even the lighter thing it comes out of.

      wait no my body isn't ready for Sieg yet ​ nah the counter itself never happened, but as you can see, dispite the jarring hit, he was immediately back in a position where he could. My shit gets rocked like that? I'm not thinking about anything but getting away. Dorian? Already on the defensive and planning his next step as he's getting yeeted.

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    • Yes, he just carved it in a circular shape it supports itself. It's just showing he knows basic physics.

      He's not slipping into blind spots, people can still see parts of his body that aren't moving. It seems like just speed tbh. 

      That's not skill though. Hair by nature can't even stick to the eye like that. It's just baki being baki. You don't blow on a piece of hair then it suddenly becomes strong enough to pierce skin.

      Eh..... It's not like he threw them "ONLY" at the eyes, he threw many shards. 

      I meant on "scaling itself isn't quantifiable". So since we're going from weakest to best, it's best to stick to just the feats of each rather than saying "scales above X" cus it doesn't really provide any new feat or anything i can say back to it. 

      It's metal? Well the lighter thingy where the wire comes out is still "not sharp" (kinda weird for it not to be plastic), so it wouldn't cut.

      I mean Siegfried is ready to counter attack when he's caught by surprise, so like...no matter what the argument is if it involves "counter" Sieg outdoes it. xD

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yes, he just carved it in a circular shape it supports itself. It's just showing he knows basic physics.

      He's not slipping into blind spots, people can still see parts of his body that aren't moving. It seems like just speed tbh. 

      That's not skill though. Hair by nature can't even stick to the eye like that. It's just baki being baki. You don't blow on a piece of hair then it suddenly becomes strong enough to pierce skin.

      Eh..... It's not like he threw them "ONLY" at the eyes, he threw many shards. 

      I meant on "scaling itself isn't quantifiable". So since we're going from weakest to best, it's best to stick to just the feats of each rather than saying "scales above X" cus it doesn't really provide any new feat or anything i can say back to it. 

      It's metal? Well the lighter thingy where the wire comes out is still "not sharp" (kinda weird for it not to be plastic), so it wouldn't cut.

      I mean Siegfried is ready to counter attack when he's caught by surprise, so like...no matter what the argument is if it involves "counter" Sieg outdoes it. xD

      I dunno, I feel like if it were that simple, we wouldn't need support beams, even less so with using tools built for cave carving as opposed to bare hands and feet

      Hes using IR to dodge their line of sight

      It's the amount of force he's applying to it with the flick is what makes it slice through drag force, but there's still an element of precision to not only have it sail through the air in the precise direction you sent it, but to have it almost prick it's target pinpoint

      Fair point

      See, I don't know how to present this, because the link I posted is technically a feat, it's just a feat showing how he scales above Katou

      Yeah, it's some kinda micron something or other steel wire. The lighter thing is what he has in his hand, the wire (which if he didn't somehow cushion the impact of his fall or slow his landing would half sliced him in half) is what's across his chest in the scan I linked

      How would you scale that linked example to Sieg? Casually, trying but not hard, trying hard, etc?

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    • We use beams to make the piercing easier, not to support the whole thing. We don't do it by hand cus we do not do anything by hand these days, it takes ages (also there are tunels that aren't carved with beams. 

      IR? Also that doesn't seem to be the case considering he's still visible, in the parts he doesn't move.

      No, try your best, hair isn't piercing skin like that. It's too soft.

      Hmm, if i say "i am stronger than my friend", is there anything you can say back to it? It's not like you can disprove my "feat" of being stronger, but there is nothing to argue back at it for "X is even stronger". However if you say "i can throw a rock 20m away" i can say back "i can throw it 30m". So that's what i mean by "scaling is not feat", it's just where they sit within the canon. That's why i would like you to avoid these scalings and just stick to the feats of each character.

      Wasn't that just the wire falling to the ground rather than from his chest? Also even then it's just PIS at most, skill doesn't make you not get sliced. 

      Hmm, i guess it would be start of the series Sieg being very casual. Otherwise mid series Sieg literally counterattacks when he gets hit from behind while he's writing songs. See Sieg's feats for yourself.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      We use beams to make the piercing easier, not to support the whole thing. We don't do it by hand cus we do not do anything by hand these days, it takes ages (also there are tunels that aren't carved with beams. 

      IR? Also that doesn't seem to be the case considering he's still visible, in the parts he doesn't move.

      No, try your best, hair isn't piercing skin like that. It's too soft.

      Hmm, if i say "i am stronger than my friend", is there anything you can say back to it? It's not like you can disprove my "feat" of being stronger, but there is nothing to argue back at it for "X is even stronger". However if you say "i can throw a rock 20m away" i can say back "i can throw it 30m". So that's what i mean by "scaling is not feat", it's just where they sit within the canon. That's why i would like you to avoid these scalings and just stick to the feats of each character.

      Wasn't that just the wire falling to the ground rather than from his chest? Also even then it's just PIS at most, skill doesn't make you not get sliced. 

      Hmm, i guess it would be start of the series Sieg being very casual. Otherwise mid series Sieg literally counterattacks when he gets hit from behind while he's writing songs. See Sieg's feats for yourself.

      Wait what? I was referring to support beam, which are placed throughout most tunnels to support the weight of the roof of the tunnel to prevent collapse. Dorian's tunnel was so perfectly carved, it didn't need support beams

      Hes not though, not only does his body (save for his feet) completely disappeared from Shibukawa's view and the view of the on-lookers, but he even says that he's dodging people's gaze and that his body is moving on its own

      Okay, I might slip up because I'm just slappin down feats I've gathered, but just ignore the scaling feats

      He has the wire looped around that lamppost and his body is caught in the loop, but moot point if it's PIS

      I'd say Sieg's feat is slightly better, as he basically does the same thing, except he's able to follow through with the counter as he's recovering instead of just getting into position to counter

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    • Ok but it is no different from this tunnel.

      Body moving on his own is just instinct. As for the rest, disappearing from someone's view can be acomplished with speed too.

      Depends on "which" feat. Cus he has a ton of feats. His most basic ones are not getting hurt at all while countering back with the same force.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Ok but it is no different from this tunnel.

      Body moving on his own is just instinct. As for the rest, disappearing from someone's view can be acomplished with speed too.

      Depends on "which" feat. Cus he has a ton of feats. His most basic ones are not getting hurt at all while countering back with the same force.

      Right, and Dorian did something like that with his bare hands

      Right, but it's specifically stated that he was reacting to "punches, kicks, sword slashes, and even someone's gaze" instinctively. He's literally using IR to dodge their sight

      Specifically the one where he counter attacks a surprise attack

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    • Which is just carving it, trimming the stone bit by bit, nothing skill based.

      Still doesn't seem like it's blind spots, but we get there when we get there i guess.

      That's massively above lol. He's writing his songs, a dude kicks him full power, and he not only takes no damage but also hits back. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Which is just carving it, trimming the stone bit by bit, nothing skill based.

      Still doesn't seem like it's blind spots, but we get there when we get there i guess.

      That's massively above lol. He's writing his songs, a dude kicks him full power, and he not only takes no damage but also hits back. 

      I don't know, we can agree to disagree, but since we don't see eye to eye on this point, it will be omitted from the discussion

      True, I'm not sure if I have it as a skill feat, but Baki is considerably later on

      Wouldnt not taking damage just be durability? As far as skill, Sieg successfully counter attacked a surprise attack, Dorian was instantly ready to counter attack a hit he was expecting. Sieg's is clearly better, but I wouldn't say massively

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    • Ok i guess.

      Ok.

      Nah, cus he did it by countering rather than by tanking the attack. He basically does a form of Xiao Lee, so that he won't get hurt by the attack. As for massively above, yes, it is, because that is mid series Sieg who's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS Sieg, who could counter instantly upon getting hit, which is still above anything Dorian did as Dorian didn't even counter, he was just back in stance after a hit. Which is more endurance than skill, as no matter how much skill, if you just black out from the punch, it's over Unless your name is Siegfried

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Ok i guess.

      Ok.

      Nah, cus he did it by countering rather than by tanking the attack. He basically does a form of Xiao Lee, so that he won't get hurt by the attack. As for massively above, yes, it is, because that is mid series Sieg who's >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BoS Sieg, who could counter instantly upon getting hit, which is still above anything Dorian did as Dorian didn't even counter, he was just back in stance after a hit. Which is more endurance than skill, as no matter how much skill, if you just black out from the punch, it's over Unless your name is Siegfried

      The punch didn't knock him out and he clearly doesn't tank it, as he even looks clobbered, but he had already taken up a counterattack stance, meaning he was already preparing a counterattack as he was getting hit, which is just shy of what BoS Sieg can do apparently. Save for the Xaio-Lee aspect, the feat is the same, regardless of how Sieg's overall combat skill scales to when he was first able to do it. Think of it like this: if I could punch someone with my knuckles angled so that my punches would cut them, then I become a martial arts master and do it, the feat is still the same, I just became more skilled overall. 

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    • No, there's no reason to assume "he was ready to counter beforehand". He was just capable to take a stance after getting punched. He clearly doesn't "tank" it, he "endures" it. A punch can hurt me, but i can still endure it. He never even countered back, comparing it to Siegfried is just not happening sorry. Siegfried completely outclasses, even Sieg's worst feat is light years ahead of "taking a stance after getting hit". 

      As for Siegfried, countering is literally his number 1 move. He trained in Tidat for some time (i think a week or so, can't remember exactly), and he practiced only his counter. And countering a move you know is coming and countering a move of an attack you don't even know is coming are 2 things COMPLETELY far appart. Cus he does it by reading his opponent's rythym, and following the rythym of an attack that you don't even know is coming is pretty insane. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      No, there's no reason to assume "he was ready to counter beforehand". He was just capable to take a stance after getting punched. He clearly doesn't "tank" it, he "endures" it. A punch can hurt me, but i can still endure it. He never even countered back, comparing it to Siegfried is just not happening sorry. Siegfried completely outclasses, even Sieg's worst feat is light years ahead of "taking a stance after getting hit". 

      As for Siegfried, countering is literally his number 1 move. He trained in Tidat for some time (i think a week or so, can't remember exactly), and he practiced only his counter. And countering a move you know is coming and countering a move of an attack you don't even know is coming are 2 things COMPLETELY far appart. Cus he does it by reading his opponent's rythym, and following the rythym of an attack that you don't even know is coming is pretty insane. 

      To quote Doppo directly, "I just hit you full on and you're already in a position to counter attack." He literally recovers from the hit by entering a stance to counter. While he does not follow through, that's where the differences end: Sieg countered as a reaction to a surprise attack, Dorian prepared a counter to an attack that hit him at least hard enough to close his eyes (also meaning he was in a position to counter despite not seeing if Doppo was going to follow up with something or what that something may be).

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    • He never managed to counter an attack, he was just ready to do so to the next punch. 

      From doppo's words "Yu're in a position to counter attack", counterattacking is just attacking back, thing he did not do, so it was literally "you took up a stance after being hit". It is not impressive, hell, average boxers do that all the time, getting punched yet still keeping their stance ready for a counterattack. 

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    • Anyway this matters fairly little, once feats that can outdo Sieg come up, i'll argue them. Dorian is still High Class Disciple. Let's move on to the next. 

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    • Right on, next boi comin up

      Next, a simpler scale: Yanagi

      Yanagi has 3 techniques, one of them being possible for Yujiro to replicate, but not likely (Yujiro resists poison, but wouldn't ever use Poison Hand in a fight).

      Vacuum Palm- Yanagi creates an air vacuum in the palm of his hand. He primarily uses this technique to knock someone unconscious by forcing them to breathe a dangerously low oxygen level; some other uses include destroying bulletproof glass and concrete walls, and blowing air through an opponent's ear to blow their organs out of the other ear

      Benda- Yanagi makes his limbs go fluid-like and then proceeds to "slap" his opponent mercilessly; the slaps are strong enough to rip the opponent's skin off

      His real claim to fame is (unfortunately) his scaling from Kunimatsu, his master. Kunimatsu is the master and sensei of the Great Japanese Budo School teachings in assassination and deadly hand techniques. He is well known all across the world and teacher to many famous authority figures but none from Japan. Yanagi skill in the Way of the Void is so great that his master Kunimatsu considers him his most skilled student, despite having many students from all around the world, and calls him a genius.

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    • Can Yujiro use the vacuum palm?

      Benda, is really just a slap with fluid motion. I can't find a similar feat, but definitely not something that would put him as impressive in the high class disciples. 

      So still high class disciple.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Can Yujiro use the vacuum palm?

      Benda, is really just a slap with fluid motion. I can't find a similar feat, but definitely not something that would put him as impressive in the high class disciples. 

      So still high class disciple.

      Yes, as he knows all martial arts in the verse. The only moves he wouldn't be confirmed as at least possibly having is any move using weapons (Doyle's kit, Motobe's kit, Gaia's kit, Musashi's kit, etc) or a move that either isn't recognized as a martial art move or is but requires outside resources (Dorian's hypnosis, Yanagi's Poison Hand, etc)

      Benda is a move that not only allows for durability negation, but also pain manip. To do it, you have to be able to move your arms at speeds exceeding Mach 2 (the faster, the better) and your arms have to almost perfectly emulate water.

      That on top of VP, which not only allows one to control the amount of oxygen one intakes, but it also allows the user to use air pressure to bust through things like jetfighter cockpit glass or concrete walls, as well as blowing into a man's ear and blowing his organs out of the other ear

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    • VP is not directly martial arts, it's specific training to creating vacuum in your palm. 

      Yeah as i said, i can't find anything similar, but it doesn't break past High Class disciple.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      VP is not directly martial arts, it's specific training to creating vacuum in your palm. 

      Yeah as i said, i can't find anything similar, but it doesn't break past High Class disciple.

      VP is a technique used in the Way of the Void, a martial art style that Yujiro should not only know by virtue of knowing all martial arts, but also due to the fact that we've seen him use another technique in the style, Benda

      If you say so, something like dura neg/pain manip seems like it would get higher, especially if nothing even similar has even appeared in Kenichi, but you know more about Kenichi than myself. What about VP?

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    • Nothing similar has appeared in Kenichi, but it doesn't mean that a single technique they haven't shown puts them above when every high class disciple has about a dozen more techniques Yanagi lacks. 

      High class disciples can stat amp, death hax, sense anything that enter their range, feel everything, read the opponent's rythym, overpower the opponent's rythym, read their minds, hearts, feelings, true emotions etc etc etc etc etc. 

      It's not as simple as "a technique they haven't shown" cus the same can be said for their techniques which Yanagi hasn't shown. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Nothing similar has appeared in Kenichi, but it doesn't mean that a single technique they haven't shown puts them above when every high class disciple has about a dozen more techniques Yanagi lacks. 

      High class disciples can stat amp, death hax, sense anything that enter their range, feel everything, read the opponent's rythym, overpower the opponent's rythym, read their minds, hearts, feelings, true emotions etc etc etc etc etc. 

      It's not as simple as "a technique they haven't shown" cus the same can be said for their techniques which Yanagi hasn't shown. 

      True, and with Yanagi's scaling to Yujiro in terms of skill and even his go-to technique, peak High class makes sense when I think about it. It's kinda like the relationship Fugil and Yujiro have on the main skill thread: they come out to be about equal as Yujiro can do thinks Fugil can't and the opposite holds true as well

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    • Not peak lol. Peak High class means being kenichi. Having nothing besides creating vacuum in your palm and slapping with fluid motion has nothing on peak lol. He'd be about beginner High class at most. Even beginner high class disciples have feats above him (Siegfried, Odin, Takeda etc). 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Not peak lol. Peak High class means being kenichi. Having nothing besides creating vacuum in your palm and slapping with fluid motion has nothing on peak lol. He'd be about beginner High class at most. Even beginner high class disciples have feats above him (Siegfried, Odin, Takeda etc). 

      What kind of skill feats does Kenichi have?

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Firephoenixearl/Akabane_Kuroudo#Kenichi: Kenichi is not someone anyone mentioned now can even begin to take on in skill. Even Goki Shibukawa pales in comparison. 

      But then again i wouldn't even put Yanagi above Sieg, first appearance odin (who could stomp Kenichi using nothing but his "inner eye"), Takeda who can dodge with milimetric precision etc. 

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    • After taking a quick scan of some of Kenichi's feats and Sieg's feats, I'm starting to roughly figure out where in the Bakiverse Master Class falls under at least.

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    • Yeah, moving on to someone who got surprisingly high on the list: Pickle

      Pickle's signature technique is an on all fours dash for an opponent. This is the aftermath when it hit Retsu. He was able to develop this technique that not only overcomes Retsu's Crushing Fist, a technique specifically designed to counter the strength and speed aspects of this move, but it also allows him to go from being outsped by the Deinonychus to outspeeding it enough to not only tag it, but full on tackle it.

      Mastered the basics of Aikido without knowing it. So basically without even knowing, he was able to do something only 1 of the 10 Aiki masters in the last 100 years has been able to do

      Jumps back to his original positon. Not only does he jump backward to dodge and jump back before Jack even notices, but it was back to the exact same point to which Jack couldn't even tell that he moved, and it looked like a casual feat as well

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    • The dash on all fours is not anything impressive, it's just him dashing full speed ahead, taking a dashing stance beforehand is the same thing sprinters do in the olympics to achieve a faster start.

      That is pure luck, you can't learn something without knowing it. You can achieve something similar without realizing what you're doing though. 

      That's just jumping strength/speed. Basically Saitama's "serious side steps" but with a backstep instead. Not skill.

      All in all i'd say Doyle >>>>>>> Caveman here. His dash is something everyone does, his mastering of Aikido is pure luck as from what i know he has no knowledge of martial arts nor is he shown to use any complex martial arts and his jump is just stats.

      He'd not even make it to Middle Class Disciple. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      The dash on all fours is not anything impressive, it's just him dashing full speed ahead, taking a dashing stance beforehand is the same thing sprinters do in the olympics to achieve a faster start.

      That is pure luck, you can't learn something without knowing it. You can achieve something similar without realizing what you're doing though. 

      That's just jumping strength/speed. Basically Saitama's "serious side steps" but with a backstep instead. Not skill.

      All in all i'd say Doyle >>>>>>> Caveman here. His dash is something everyone does, his mastering of Aikido is pure luck as from what i know he has no knowledge of martial arts nor is he shown to use any complex martial arts and his jump is just stats.

      He'd not even make it to Middle Class Disciple. 

      "Dashing on all fours" is a bit downplay-ish. The fact that this move allows him to outspeed something that's given it's speed rating specifically for outspeeding Pickle is something notable. Add to that the aforementioned "overcoming Crushing Fist, which is supposed to hard counter it", and it's fairly obvious that the appearance of this move is deceiving

      Thats what Pickle is doing. He's able to apply to combat a martial art only 1 of 10 masters in the last 100 years have been able to apply without realizing he's even doing it

      Not only did he jump back and dodge the strike at the last minute, but he used the board as a bounce pad instead of destroying it and barreling through it AND jumped back to the exact same position in both his stance and where he was standing.  

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    • It specifically says "he will explode with all his power". It's not skill, it's just him moving as fast as he can. And ofc it overcame Crushing Fist, it fucking blew Retsu to the other side of the venue while tanking the hit. 

      Yeah, it's pure luck, it's not a feat of copying, or quick learning cus he doesn't even know what he's doing. He's simply moving in a way, that just so happens to be a hard martial arts. 

      The board wouldn't break, he doesn't kick it, he pushes off it, besides...fiction, not skill in "attacking the board so that it doesn't break". And he jumped back to the same spot, are you telling me you can't jump back to the same spot if you jump away from it? It's a feat of jumping strength, it even says so "He had enough strength to dodge and return to his point of origin". 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It specifically says "he will explode with all his power". It's not skill, it's just him moving as fast as he can. And ofc it overcame Crushing Fist, it fucking blew Retsu to the other side of the venue while tanking the hit. 

      Yeah, it's pure luck, it's not a feat of copying, or quick learning cus he doesn't even know what he's doing. He's simply moving in a way, that just so happens to be a hard martial arts. 

      The board wouldn't break, he doesn't kick it, he pushes off it, besides...fiction, not skill in "attacking the board so that it doesn't break". And he jumped back to the same spot, are you telling me you can't jump back to the same spot if you jump away from it? It's a feat of jumping strength, it even says so "He had enough strength to dodge and return to his point of origin". 

      Yes, I never said the basics of the move weren't strength and speed, however, to not look at the fact that this move was developed to help Pickle take down stronger opponents (like large dinosaurs) and faster opponents (namely Deinonychus) would be negligent

      Its not pure luck, it's a copying feat. It's not like Pickle A) doesn't know what he's doing, he's seen Aiki used and how its suppose to be used and is replicating said martial art and B) it's not like he doesn't copy fighting styles and techniques throughout his run, namely some kind of grab on Baki, Jack's entire style, and Aiki

      With the power he was barreling back with, he wouldn't have even made it to the kick, he'd have gone straight through. And no, I doubt anyone irl would have the precision to jump back to the same spot in the same position to the point to which if you did it fast enough, a vastly experienced fighter like Jack couldn't even noticed that they did it. Yes, he had the strength to do it, but that's disregarding the skill it would've took. Just because something requires strength does not inherently mean that skill isn't required at all

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    • But it's not a skill feat if it's done via speed or strength.

      Baki specifically says he doesn't even know he's doing Aiki it's definitely not a copying feat. As for copying jack's style imma need a scan of that cus it may be indeed good.

      Not really, it's not like driving skills can help you not break a stick if you're driving at it 100miles/h. It's just fiction being fiction. Everyone can jump back to the same spot, the position is not exactly important cus you can keep whatever position you want when jumping unless you're making jumps that you're normally not capable of (which is clearly not the case as he could have jumped way further) and Jack not noticing is simply speed. And it doesn't take much skill, the basis of a move being strength means it doesn't rely on much skill if any at all. It's below average human levels of skill

      Again, don't even try to put this caveman above a Kaioh like Dorian. 

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    • It's literally a technique he developed that allows him to amp his strength and speed. Would that not classify as a skill that just amps his stats?

      Just because he doesn't know what he's doing doesn't mean he isn't instinctively copying the movements he's seen. Pickle is portrayed as a... less than intelligence character, but his instincts and imagination replace his combat intelligence, instincts being the cause of the use of Aiki here. I'll try to find the scans, but it may take awhile

      In theory, even that example is possible, such as swerving your tires at the last second to go around it, drifting to knock it out of the way, or even using something like hydrolics to go over the stick. The same area sure, but the exact same spot is not a common occurrence by any stretch, and Pickle doesn't keep the same position at all. Jack's first thought is that the punch phased through Pickle, clearly indicating that Pickle's position was the exact same. Regardless of the speed involved, he dodged by jumping back, sprang off of the board behind and returned to his exact same position as though he hadn't moved to begin with. With this alone he's looking more impressive than both Dorian and Doyle

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    • He doesn't amp, he just uses it at maximum output. If your casual punches do not deal damage, but you use your strongest punch and break plankwood, that didn't mean you used skill to amp. You just gave it your all, he's doing the same. Barely average human skill

      He's not really copying if he doesn't know what he's doing then. Cus he's not copying something, he's just doing it randomly. To copy something is to analyze how something is done, understand it and perfrom it yourself, it's not copying if you don't know what you're doing.

      No cus none of those cases are what Pickle did, he didn't just avoid the wood barrier, he landed on it. It is a pretty common occurence, as long as people are trying to land in the exact same spot they can, they usually don't cus "why would they do it", sure, but they sure as hell can. The rest of the feat with the jumping, jack not realising etc etc etc, is purely strength. And there is a reason Jack didn't compliment his skill for doing such a feat but rather only his stats, cus it's not impressive skill.

      And no, mastering chinese martial arts and several other techniques being below jumping in the same spot, are you kidding me? So if i do that right now am i gonna be the most skilled dude in the world?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      He doesn't amp, he just uses it at maximum output. If your casual punches do not deal damage, but you use your strongest punch and break plankwood, that didn't mean you used skill to amp. You just gave it your all, he's doing the same. Barely average human skill

      He's not really copying if he doesn't know what he's doing then. Cus he's not copying something, he's just doing it randomly. To copy something is to analyze how something is done, understand it and perfrom it yourself, it's not copying if you don't know what you're doing.

      No cus none of those cases are what Pickle did, he didn't just avoid the wood barrier, he landed on it. It is a pretty common occurence, as long as people are trying to land in the exact same spot they can, they usually don't cus "why would they do it", sure, but they sure as hell can. The rest of the feat with the jumping, jack not realising etc etc etc, is purely strength. And there is a reason Jack didn't compliment his skill for doing such a feat but rather only his stats, cus it's not impressive skill.

      And no, mastering chinese martial arts and several other techniques being below jumping in the same spot, are you kidding me? So if i do that right now am i gonna be the most skilled dude in the world?

      He is amping, his max speed is unable to catch a Deinonychus and his maximum strength is only enough to stalemate and eventually whittle down the likes of a T-Rex. With FLS, he is able to catch a Deinonychus easily and absolutely steamroll a T-Rex and comparable dinosaurs.

      He very clearly has it analyzed and understood. If I see kanji and see how someone reacts, I may not be able to read Kanji, but I can at the very least replicate said kanji if I wanted to envoke that same reaction, but this is even deeper than that. He's doing that same thing, but purely through instinct. Even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand.

      He avoids Jack's punch, not the board, and he bounces off of the board instead of breaking it. In the same area, sure. In the exact same spot, down to the position you were in before moving? Seriously doubt that. It's clearly a skill feat to be able to so perfectly dodge an attack with so much movement involved that Jack doesn't even realize he's been blitzed, only coming to this conclusion after noticing the aftermath of the spring board, initially thinking his attack phased through Pickle.

      Except nobody irl can replicate this feat even without the power and speed involve, or at the very least it's insanely difficult. That's like me saying I'm the most skilled person in the world by KO'ing someone by being loud

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    • Except it's not, the technique he used is his max speed, it specifically says that he's not amping, he's just using all his strength.

      Exactly, even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand. Doesn't make him more skilled than world class martial artists though.

      Jack specifically says it's a feat of speed. He literally never mentioned anything on skill, if it was that hard to pull off skill wise, he'd have at least mention it. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Except it's not, the technique he used is his max speed, it specifically says that he's not amping, he's just using all his strength.

      Exactly, even a monkey can copy movements and actions it doesn't understand. Doesn't make him more skilled than world class martial artists though.

      Jack specifically says it's a feat of speed. He literally never mentioned anything on skill, if it was that hard to pull off skill wise, he'd have at least mention it. 

      He's using his strength to amp his speed, yes. In outlines throughout several pages that it isn't possible for him to catch Deinonychus without this move, to the point that Deinonychus literally upscales in speed from Pickle on this site. (Edit) We also see him even wrestling somewhat evenly with a T-Rex while transformed, yet he can flatten comparable Dinosaurs with one use of FLS

      It does if said monkey is using Aiki correctly in combat, which, of 10 people that could even master Aiki in the last 100 years, only 1 could do

      Thats not inherently true at all. The speed at which the feat was done was not only the most notable thing about the feat, but also the most jarring for Jack. Pickle clearly had to have the timing to kick the board at the exact right time to launch him forward instead of destroying it and sending him barreling through, as well as skill to return to the exact same spot and position despite changing these 2 things drastically in the scenario

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    • Speed is just leg strength after all. And yes they scale from his normal attempts, not when he's giving his all as specifically shown by him. 

      Pretty sure all 10 masters could understand as much as the very very basics of Aiki, and he's not even doing anything with it, he's just losely immitating it. 

      Btw about not being able to land in the exact same spot, there are people who do a thing called parkour, and you don't even need to be that good at it, to be able to perform precision landing which requires you to be exactly where you want to jump, as much as a cm off, and you'll be falling off that pole. 

      Also kenichi  does a similar thing but on fast moving objects.

      My point isn't simply saying "pickle doesn't compare", cus i would have just given Rim running upward walls with parkour skill and ended the conversation. Im saying do not say Pickle is more skilled than Dorian under any circumstance, he's not.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Speed is just leg strength after all. And yes they scale from his normal attempts, not when he's giving his all as specifically shown by him. 

      Pretty sure all 10 masters could understand as much as the very very basics of Aiki, and he's not even doing anything with it, he's just losely immitating it. 

      Btw about not being able to land in the exact same spot, there are people who do a thing called parkour, and you don't even need to be that good at it, to be able to perform precision landing which requires you to be exactly where you want to jump, as much as a cm off, and you'll be falling off that pole. 

      Also kenichi  does a similar thing but on fast moving objects.

      My point isn't simply saying "pickle doesn't compare", cus i would have just given Rim running upward walls with parkour skill and ended the conversation. Im saying do not say Pickle is more skilled than Dorian under any circumstance, he's not.

      Sorry, had class, I'm back for a bit, but I still have my last one soon

      Anyway, no, it was flat out said he couldn't catch a Deinonychus. It's not said he couldn't casually catch one or he couldn't catch one because he wasn't going all out, it says he couldn't catch one. If he wasn't able to catch one before, but was able to catch one using the move, the move speed amps

      No, the 10 masters were (of course) masters of Aiki, but only 1 was skilled enough to use it in combat, implying that using it in combat is more difficult than even just mastering it. For Pickle to use even just the basics successfully in combat scales above 9 of those 10 masters of Aiki, who couldn't even apply the basics in combat

      Parkour is 100% not the same. In parkour, there are elements of precision to their surface scaling and landings, but there is always at least tens of ways, if not possibly hundreds of ways the runner can land so long as they land in the desired spot safely and in the manner that allows for continued movement. That is not this. In Pickle's scenario, there is literally only 1 way he can land and one place he can land. It's hard enough to have moved so drastically from one spot and return to the exact same spot, but to do so AND return in the same position? It's insanely difficult, and even that example in no way comes close to the level of precision displayed in this feat

      Hell, if the feat downscales from Kenichi, I'd take that considering some of the things I've seen him pull of (granted I don't think Pickle himself scales down from Kenichi, but the feat scaling to one of Kenichi's feats would be helpful in the long run)

      I'd disagree for reasons above

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    • Except that's directly contradicted by what Pickle said which meant his full explosive speed could catch up to them. So in other words if he did a faster start, he would catch up to them. But then again, if i really wanted to i can say well Miu speed amped 10x her reaction speed or literally takes from her power to give to her speed, but it's really not my goal as you're contradicting Pickle's actual words.

      Hardly, he didn't even pull anything impressive with it. Definitely not above the masters. Besides again plain useless arguments on both of our sides as im just saying Pickle isn't > Dorian, since i can just say, well Siegfried and Lugh exist in the High class disciple and end this.

      Ok then since we agree it gets outdone by Kenichi i'd rather not continue arguing Dorian above pickle. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Except that's directly contradicted by what Pickle said which meant his full explosive speed could catch up to them. So in other words if he did a faster start, he would catch up to them. But then again, if i really wanted to i can say well Miu speed amped 10x her reaction speed or literally takes from her power to give to her speed, but it's really not my goal as you're contradicting Pickle's actual words.

      Hardly, he didn't even pull anything impressive with it. Definitely not above the masters. Besides again plain useless arguments on both of our sides as im just saying Pickle isn't > Dorian, since i can just say, well Siegfried and Lugh exist in the High class disciple and end this.

      Ok then since we agree it gets outdone by Kenichi i'd rather not continue arguing Dorian above pickle. 

      No, it says several times that it's referring to power as in strength. In his fight against Musashi, which was way later on and much more current, it literally says that he couldn't catch the Deinonychus and then with the move he can, nothing more, nothing less

      No, it is 100% above masters, as not a single master except Shibukawa is able to actually use Aiki in combat at all. Using Aiki in combat is considered the pinnacle of Aiki, regardless of your familiarity with the art.

      True, regardless of the placement exactly, I concur that Kenichi is overall more skilled than both of them, so if you'd like, we can just move on to the next Baki character

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    • Yeah let's move on. 

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    • Though let's skip to the top tiers, this is getting way too long, at this pace we'll never finish.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Though let's skip to the top tiers, this is getting way too long, at this pace we'll never finish.

      Alright, some of the scaling may be a bit wonky, so if you need context for scaling (as an example, Katsumi scales to top tier Kaiohs like Ryo and Retsu during NGB, so if you wanted some feats for them if we hadn't already discussed, just ask). I'll grab some stuff and drop it here

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    • Since I had the distinct pleasure of typing for an hour an a half, getting my comment eaten right before I remembered to copy it, and undo not working fml I spent about 45 mins typing up a more disgestible version of my college thesis level essay I just typed out. I'll feed each feat one by one so they can be discussed to the fullest possible extent

      First feat for Karate Jesus Katsumi Orochi: 

      • Can defeat a group of street thugs brutally and effortlessly. Even ripped out the 2 front teeth of one of the men with just his fingers
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    • Is that really a feat? Middle class people outdo that with their eyes closed. 3 of the Ragnarok members fodderized a group of either 50 or 100 can't remember people without taking a scratch. Beating thugs really ain't a feat.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Is that really a feat? Middle class people outdo that with their eyes closed. 3 of the Ragnarok members fodderized a group of either 50 or 100 can't remember people without taking a scratch. Beating thugs really ain't a feat.

      It's the first thing he ever does in the series, don't worry, the good stuff is coming

      Next up, 

      • Is able to almost kill the considerably strong and fast Yasha-Zaru Jr., only being stopped by Baki
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    • Not a skill feat? Beating up people has a lot more to it than simply skill and even then, it's just scaling above him, not a feat on its own.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Not a skill feat? Beating up people has a lot more to it than simply skill and even then, it's just scaling above him, not a feat on its own.

      Fair enough, there a feat later that is like this one but undisputedly skill based (I just checked and Katsumi's stats are actually better than Yasha)

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    • This isn't the one, but a good one all the same. These 2 fighters should be roughly comparable. Katsumi achieves this by outskilling him to an utterly massive degree

      • Absolutely relentlessly clowns on world class wrestler Roland Istaz
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    • World class wrestler with barely any skill feats of which i doubt he would be a basic thug in kenichi verse. 

      I told you to skip to the good part, not bring more useless feats

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      World class wrestler with barely any skill feats of which i doubt he would be a basic thug in kenichi verse. 

      I told you to skip to the good part, not bring more useless feats

      No, as I mentioned before, Maximum Tournament fighters, to even participate, must be on the level of martial arts master, combat sports champions, or have some kind of accolade that makes them worth risking this illegal fighting tournament for. Even baseline Maximum fighters can clown a basic thug like nothing

      Edit: it would be like pinning a basic street thug against Mike Tyson (who is in the tournament and scales directly to this guy)

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    • Ok i need a feat of the guy you mentioned. 

      Also the boxers earlier were world class but still middle class disciple. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Ok i need a feat of the guy you mentioned. 

      Also the boxers earlier were world class but still middle class disciple. 

      That might take a bit (last class is about to start too)

      So that puts BoS Katsumi at clowning middle class bois. He's roughly high mid or low high for that, yeah?

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    • So in terms of scaling, like I said earlier, he scales to Iron Michael, the Mike Tyson of Baki. He's also the Baki version of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Gotch this guy. His best in verse feat is putting a Lion in an armlock and making it submit (his nicknames are Mr Submission and the Joint Maniac and his style is called Joint Fetish, so as you could tell, I think they are very subtly implying that he is a submission artist/hold expert)

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    • BoS Katsumi is normal Mid Class. Mid Class can stomp other mid classes who stomp other mid classes and still be mid class. 

      Let's skip to the feats and leave the scaling.

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    • Question: there's a pretty good point coming up, but it has to do with Katsumi defeating someone who has little skill but borderline stomps him in strength. Is that viable to use or no?

      For now, a feat: Katsumi allowed Roland to dislocate the joints in his arm, only for Katsumi to set all the joints in one movement

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    • And also, so you can see what I mean when I say "clown on him"

      https://youtu.be/AmQNQn3vf2M

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Question: there's a pretty good point coming up, but it has to do with Katsumi defeating someone who has little skill but borderline stomps him in strength. Is that viable to use or no?

      For now, a feat: Katsumi allowed Roland to dislocate the joints in his arm, only for Katsumi to set all the joints in one movement

      No not really. I would like for you to avoid all "beat x and beat Y", because everyone above can beat people below. It's like mentioning a feat for me like "Could beat a 12 y/o", like yeah ok, that's really not impressive, cus im just beating someone weaker and less skilled.

      Setting all the joints back to normal is more strength than skill cus it's from the muscles tensing so much they put the joint back together, but yes people can do that in Kenichi.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      Setting all the joints back to normal is more strength than skill cus it's from the muscles tensing so much they put the joint back together, but yes people can do that in Kenichi.

      Well, that's actually why I asked in this particular case: Katsumi wasn't fighting someone weaker, he was fighting someone massively stronger, to the point that it was mentioned 3 separate times that Katsumi physically just didn't cut it in terms of strength (was unprepared for this level of strength and determination, was extensively damaged, etc)

      Alright, next up for feats: 

      • Uses his special technique the Mach Punch, in which Katsumi punches so fast that his fists break the sound barrier, to defeat Hanayama
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    • It is just his fastest punch. And it's just creating more speed by twisting it, nothing too insane. Boxers like Takeda had "Illusionary Left" back when he was arguably not even Mid Class disciple, a punch so fast it was invisible to everyone else. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It is just his fastest punch. And it's just creating more speed by twisting it, nothing too insane. Boxers like Takeda had "Illusionary Left" back when he was arguably not even Mid Class disciple, a punch so fast it was invisible to everyone else. 

      It's not twisting, Mach Punch: Katsumi aligns his joints perfectly to deliever a punch or punches that break the sound barrier.

      Moving FTE to someone and moving FTE to several people faster than you while being able to destroy someone stronger than you is quite different

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    • When was mach punch FTE to people faster than Katsumi? And destroying someone stronger than him never happened, Katsumi was weaker than Hanayama but it took him dozens of mach punches to eventually put him down. It's just his strongest punch. 

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    • https://youtu.be/HY-ot-ClxkY Katsumi v Hanayama: outspeed and surprised at 2:10, absolutely demolished him with the attack, 4:20 Katsumi attempts a block and gets annihilated again, 4:30 Katsumi even uses a technique to try to block, Hanayama breaks through and rocks him, 5:15 Katsumi literally curled up vomiting, 5:25 Katsumi quickly grabs Hanayama in (judging by the distressed look on Katsumi’s face) a last ditch effort to not get destroyed, 5:45 Katsumi Judo flips Hanayama and RUNS AWAY, around 6:30 ish is able to get off a combo and dodge a few attacks that do some decent damage as Baki then explains it was a matter of the technique used and the placement of the hits (aka skill), then at around 7:30 ish, Katsumi is again unable to completely block Hanayama’s hits so he narrowly avoids his follow-up and using Quadruple Median Line Strike, a move that strikes pressure points to allow for (even as Katsumi’s page says) Durability Negation, only further implying that Hanayama is leagues above him in strength, at around 8:00, Hanayama catches Katsumi with Vice Grip, Hanayama is finally starting to get winded after taking 2 techniques that in one way or another neg durability, we see at about 9:40 that, while Katsumi can affect Hanayama with his attacks, he can very easily shrug them off and deal way more damage in return, at about 10:40 Katsumi even almost loses or briefly loses consciousness, and then proceeds to get utterly annihilated until PIS cheers him back into the fight. Katsumi then kicks Hanayama right in the face with barely any result, Katsumi proceeds to blitz Hanayama with like 50 arm joint punches before he can even react and does more damage in that same combo as he’s done throughout most of the fight. He finally finishes off Hanayama with a full joint Mach Punch. To clarify one thing: Mach Punch is an amp in both speed and power. He’s able to blitz Hanayama who is consistently trading blows with him with them reacting to each other’s attacks until the use of that technique, as well as characters like Baki using it to blitz the much faster Jack. By that same token, Mach Punch also allows Katsumi to devastate the same Hanayama that steamrolled the shit out of him so hard Katsumi spent the majority of the fight running, on his back, or vomiting, and same goes for Jack and Baki

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    • Also, to revisit the Yasha v Katsumi fight, I feel as though I was to quick to disregard it. After rewatching the fight itself, it's quite clear that while Katsumi likely has better speed and stats, everyone watching recognizes the skill required to dominate the strongest animal on the planet to this degree https://youtu.be/bnNemPfB8OM

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    • Not outspeed, he was surprised, he noticed the attack to late so he did not have time to dodge. As for blocking well in terms of punching you don't outdo Hanayama.

      Idk what the rest are trying to prove, we already know Hanayama is superior in AP so what's the point?

      Katsumi deals some pretty good damage even makes Hanayama bleed and it has nothing to do with "dealt damage cus of where it struck", he struck the solar plexus in order to use it as footing not for damage and a basic elbow to the face made Hanayama bleed, so Mach Punch is not a stat amp.

      Yeah the QMS, he managed to make Hanayama feel pain, even though even basic kicks were doing the same.

      9:40 yes Hanayama can deal damage, but so can Katsumi. It's just that Hanayama can deal more damage.

      "Procedes to blitz with 50 punches" No...just absolutely not. That is not what's called a blitz, he just did a barrage of attacks, Hanayama had no time to counterattack in between because he was getting continuously hit, he sure as hell wasn't getting anymore blitzed than he already was previously.

      "Mach Punch Strength Amp" Are you seriously saying that? Hanayama, the dude who bled with an elbow to the face, tanked 50 of those mach punches and you say "strength amp"? 

      Just no dude, no to everything, you have very loose definitions for "stat amps", "speed amps", "blitz" etc. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Not outspeed, he was surprised, he noticed the attack to late so he did not have time to dodge. As for blocking well in terms of punching you don't outdo Hanayama.

      Idk what the rest are trying to prove, we already know Hanayama is superior in AP so what's the point?

      Katsumi deals some pretty good damage even makes Hanayama bleed and it has nothing to do with "dealt damage cus of where it struck", he struck the solar plexus in order to use it as footing not for damage and a basic elbow to the face made Hanayama bleed, so Mach Punch is not a stat amp.

      Yeah the QMS, he managed to make Hanayama feel pain, even though even basic kicks were doing the same.

      9:40 yes Hanayama can deal damage, but so can Katsumi. It's just that Hanayama can deal more damage.

      "Procedes to blitz with 50 punches" No...just absolutely not. That is not what's called a blitz, he just did a barrage of attacks, Hanayama had no time to counterattack in between because he was getting continuously hit, he sure as hell wasn't getting anymore blitzed than he already was previously.

      "Mach Punch Strength Amp" Are you seriously saying that? Hanayama, the dude who bled with an elbow to the face, tanked 50 of those mach punches and you say "strength amp"? 

      Just no dude, no to everything, you have very loose definitions for "stat amps", "speed amps", "blitz" etc. 

      The bell rang with them both walking away, yet Katsumi barely had time to turn around while Hanayama had jumped, positioned himself for the kick, and was already landing at the time. At the very least it again proves they are comparable in speed

      Katsumi barely does any damage throughout the entire fight until the Mach Punch comes out, giving him all of what amounts to a nose bleed, and it's stated countless times through the entire run of Baki that the Solar Plexus is a weak spot, Doppo says it all the time, it was mentioned in the Kaioh tournament, etc. Mach Punch is a stat amp

      No, Hanayama was very clearly shrugging them off, and again QMLS is dura neg. If Katsumi was so easily damaging Hanayama conventionally, why was he the only person Katsumi uses Pressure Points on in the entire tournament?

      Yes, massively more, with Katsumi running away, throwing up, and getting knocked on his ass several times throughout. Katsumi's damage was negligible until he basically got a free elbow to Hanayama's face (which it's even stated in Mount Toba v Baki that the face is a weak spot for stronger opponents, a place were you can do some damage that actually matters) and decided to dura neg.

      If they were comparable instead of normal hits, Hanayama could've easily powered through them like we see him do almost directly after the tournament against Spec and Apnea Rush

      Not just me. KG, Amlad, and even Prom just discussed the fact that Mach Punch is an amp in speed, and it's very clearly an amp in power

      Mach Punch is 100% a speed and power amp, and it's very clearly shown to be in that fight

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    • Not just in Baki, the solar plexus is a weak spot on the human body is a weak spot. Hitting someone in the solar plexus with enough force can cause serious seizures, so I'll have to side with Baki on that one.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Not just in Baki, the solar plexus is a weak spot on the human body is a weak spot. Hitting someone in the solar plexus with enough force can cause serious seizures, so I'll have to side with Baki on that one.

      I wasn't sure if that being a weak spot was real or some more Baki shenanigans. Glad to know about that at least

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    • Katsumi didn't have time cus he was taking a stroll back. A thing Hanayama didn't do. That proves nothing on scaling.

      It is a weak spot, but it's not the solar plexus hit that did the damage it was the elbow which visibly made him bleed. Yes, Katsumi can easily hurt Hanayama, Hanayama can just endure a lot of hits (pain resistance). And no, a single hit was in the solar plexus, the rest were basic hits, even a mach punch to the solar plexus didn't put him down.

      No he wasn't he was visibly bleeding and hurting from the basic kicks to the knee and stuff. 

      Yes i don't think anyone said Katsumi deals more damage than Hanayama so idk what's the argument here. Dude not everything is "dura neg", most of the human body is a weak spot. The nose, the jaw, the solar plexus, the side, the kidney etc etc. 

      I'll need you to show me Hanayama powering through Katsumi's normal barrage punches. Don't bring up other opponent's creates false equivalency due to difference in stats.

      It's as much of a speed amp as a whip amps at the end of the lash, it is stat amp in the sense of "faster" but not actual speed amp. As for Strength amp absolutely not, it is more powerful than his casual punches due to being faster, but nothing enough to be called "strength amp".

      As for the rest if we're gonna result to this kind of arguments well:

      Takeda's Illuisonary left is invisible to comparable people and massively more powerful than his right hand punch. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Katsumi didn't have time cus he was taking a stroll back. A thing Hanayama didn't do. That proves nothing on scaling.

      It is a weak spot, but it's not the solar plexus hit that did the damage it was the elbow which visibly made him bleed. Yes, Katsumi can easily hurt Hanayama, Hanayama can just endure a lot of hits (pain resistance). And no, a single hit was in the solar plexus, the rest were basic hits, even a mach punch to the solar plexus didn't put him down.

      No he wasn't he was visibly bleeding and hurting from the basic kicks to the knee and stuff. 

      Yes i don't think anyone said Katsumi deals more damage than Hanayama so idk what's the argument here. Dude not everything is "dura neg", most of the human body is a weak spot. The nose, the jaw, the solar plexus, the side, the kidney etc etc. 

      I'll need you to show me Hanayama powering through Katsumi's normal barrage punches. Don't bring up other opponent's creates false equivalency due to difference in stats.

      It's as much of a speed amp as a whip amps at the end of the lash, it is stat amp in the sense of "faster" but not actual speed amp. As for Strength amp absolutely not, it is more powerful than his casual punches due to being faster, but nothing enough to be called "strength amp".

      As for the rest if we're gonna result to this kind of arguments well:

      Takeda's Illuisonary left is invisible to comparable people and massively more powerful than his right hand punch. 

      His movement speed and reaction speed aren't correlated. He strolls, yes, but the bell rang at the same time for both of them, yet in the time it took Katsumi to simply turn around, Hanayama had done all of what he had done

      The hit to the SP opened him up, and he used the (again) weak spot of his face, which Baki v Mount Toba already outlined the face as a weak spot for weaker opponents to hurt stronger opponents (now noticing most of the attacks that even did anything save for any attack to pressure points are to the face)

      A slight nose bleed to the weak spot of the face vs vomiting, running away, and passing out

      The argument I'm making is that he does not show once to do sufficient damage to stun Hanayama like he did with Mach Punch or take him out like he did with a full power Mach Punch until he uses the move, and not only is QMLS literally listed as dura neg, but it's attacking the pressure points, unless pressure points are somehow not dura neg?

      Hanayama v Spec is a better example as Soec and Hanayama are closer in strength, but aside from that, in this fight alone there are like 4 different times where Katsumi hits him and Hanayama's already attacking before Katsumi even recovers from attacking in the first place

      Its faster than any of Katsumi's normal movements and everyone agreed that it's a big enough difference in speed to warrant a separate speed stat on his page. Everything in that fight says otherwise

      So it's basically the same thing as a full on Mach Punch?

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    • No no no dude. We're running into the same problems as the Ikki vs Yujiro. You use the weirdest stuff to make 2 characters comparable in speed. When katsumi turned around he just saw a man falling on him nothing more, nothing less. Not a way to make the 2 comparable when Katsumi took another chill step and did a chill turn when the opponent did not do such a thing.

      Yes, and there are several other places he was hit like knees and stuff. And he tanked 50 Mach Punches so yeah...

      Hanayama does more damage yes.

      Mach Punches only stunned Hanayama cus he threw 50 freaking punches at him.

      The examples in that fight would be?

      I severely disagree with the "speed amp cus its fast", it's a faster move, that's about it. We don't give a guy "speed amp" if he has a move that launches lightning simply because "it's faster than his other moves".

      Pretty much, one of his fav moves, it's faster than anyone can see and stronger than anything else, you don't see me calling it a stat amp, because it's not, it's just a faster and stronger move than his usual ones. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      Regardless of this one instance, throughout the entire fight, despite Hanayama taking massive swings and reeling back for most of his hits, they are of roughly comparable speed

      And those other hits did next to nothing, as opposed to 1 punch to the stomach inducing major vomiting. And he very clearly didn't tank anything there. Either those Mach Punches brough him from decently damaged to "one good hit left" level damage, or those punches didn't do that much damage and that last punch did massive damage (I'd be more inclined to go with the former)

      Yes, the difference in strength isn't along the lines of Yujiro v Doppo or even Jack v Baki, but it does definitely look to be about the same difference as Baki v Mount Toba

      It doesn't just stun him, it brought him within an inch of his life, and I counted roughly 144 punches, and it only took 72 to stun him

      Spec is using Apnea Rush which strikes so fast in such little time, there's essentially 0 room to counter, so Hanayama just tanks the punches and counter while getting hit. Spec is shown to be a lot close to Hanayama than Katsumi by virtue of Spec actually trading blows with Hanayama throughout some of the fight as opposed to being badly damaged after a couple of hits (though Hanayama turns out to be the stronger of the two in both fights)

      Its considered a speed amp because by using this move, characters that use it are able to attack faster than their fasts normal punches and kicks. It is even blatantly shown when the Hitless Blow enters the series (the True Mach Punch) and it amps power and speed to an insane degree

      If it's faster than he can actually attack normally, then the attack's speed is amplified as opposed to the user's normal speed, or a stat amp in short 

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    • A stat amp means to "increase one or all stats of every move" not just having a faster punch. My punch is faster than my run. It isn't stat amp though, it's just that X move has a higher speed which should just be noted in the profile speed as "X movement speed, Y attack speed with Z move". 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      A stat amp means to "increase one or all stats of every move" not just having a faster punch. My punch is faster than my run. It isn't stat amp though, it's just that X move has a higher speed which should just be noted in the profile speed as "X movement speed, Y attack speed with Z move". 

      Statistics Amplificationis when a character raises their parameters in the middle of a fightand this is not related to their base form or some sort of "hidden power" that has been hidden or held back. These boosts are usually temporary andare specific to one or a number of statistics.

      ^ Mach Punch increases his speed so it would be a stat amp

      and that example still doesn't work because Mach Punch allows him to punch faster than he can normally punch

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    • My best punch is also faster than my normal punches. 

      But anyway i might bring it up in a CRT at some point for it to have separated speed, let's move on for now. Better feats for Katsumi. Even low to middle class disciples can replicate that. 

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    • Bump

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    • Alright, this next one is a bit of scaling, but it's to Baki people we've already placed. I will also include a feat, including a feat and new scaling because this is no longer BoS Katsumi

      So, as far as scaling:

      • Is defeated in one hit by Retsu due to his injuries, only to fight Retsu to a draw not long after (the same Retsu that is considered impressive by terms of Kaiohs, who all scale massively above initates who are the ones that use shockwaves to put out candles, can return force so precisely and exactly that if a wave of water is sent to them over a distance, they can return it to its point of origin with the exact same amount of force, and can carve a boulder into a perfect sphere with punches and kicks
      • Gets brutalized by Dorian, only to beat him within an inch of his life shortly after, the same Dorian that (at the time) scaled slightly above Retsu in skill
      • Beats Doyle tens, possibly hundreds of times, sometimes back to back, casually within 1 or 2 hits

      after we've discussed this scaling and its placement, we can get into the meat and potatoes of what may be Katsumi's best feat

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    • Let's get to the meat and potatoes. Scaling is useless without feats.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Let's get to the meat and potatoes. Scaling is useless without feats.

      Alright, one thing I found before we get to the best feat that was actually kinda impressive,

      • To beat Pickle, Katsumi trains with Retsu. Retsu trains with Katsumi and teaches him everything he knows, and Katsumi uses this to refine his own Karate (the 501st year of Karate), making Katsumi’s fighting style the product of 4,501 years of refining martial arts (Chinese Kempo: 4,000 years, and Karate: 501 years)
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    • Again mostly scaling but this time its wrong. Pretty suer Katsumi isn't better at Chinese kenpo than Retsu or Kaku Kaioh. If he were then his would be the product of 4000 years of chinese Kenpo.

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    • but can't Yujiro like copy the entire Kenichiverses Martial arts?

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    • Obscenly wrote:
      but can't Yujiro like copy the entire Kenichiverses Martial arts?

      I don't see why not

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Again mostly scaling but this time its wrong. Pretty suer Katsumi isn't better at Chinese kenpo than Retsu or Kaku Kaioh. If he were then his would be the product of 4000 years of chinese Kenpo.

      In combat skill, they are roughly comparable, though I suppose it's a moot point because Yujiro is better at their respective martial arts and knows all of them

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    • Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

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    • Obscenly wrote: Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

      Not an argument. Wiki members are not reliable sources and can’t be used in a debate like this.

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    • Obscenly wrote:
      Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?

      Yes, but this is actually for that thread, to decide if Hayato should be placed higher

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Obscenly wrote:
      Also, wasn't it agreed upon by several people that Yujiro is one of the if not the most skilled character on this wiki?
      Yes, but this is actually for that thread, to decide if Hayato should be placed higher

      Oh fr, I see, I just started watching Kenichi, didn't read it, but as far as I know Hayato is skilled af, but Yujiro has mastered every martial art, and this martial art Hayato made that Earl was talking about should be able to be casually copied by Yujiro with a single glance, and completely mastered, yes?

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    • Anyway, let's skip to the best Katsumi feats @Baki.

      @Obscenly 

      Well that falls under what we call "NLF". Just because he knows every martial arts in verse doesn't mean he can copy everything Hayato can do, because he would not be able to copy something more skilled than himself. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Anyway, let's skip to the best Katsumi feats @Baki.

      @Obscenly 

      Well that falls under what we call "NLF". Just because he knows every martial arts in verse doesn't mean he can copy everything Hayato can do, because he would not be able to copy something more skilled than himself. 

      Alright, the big boi of Katsumi's kit: 

      • Katsumi trains with Kaku Kaioh and creates the Hitless Blow, which, using values on this site, makes him 10x faster and over 600x stronger, being called the ultimate relaxation and flexibility in his muscles when delivering the punches.

      and as far as his copying ability, what @Obscenly is referring to is that Yujiro is able to copy any martial art at a glance, in that while he knows all martial arts, it's questionable whether or not he knew Xiao-Lee, so he either didn't know it and instantly mastered a martial art that takes 129 years to master or he already knew it as part of knowing all martial arts. Regardless, Baki invents a martial art style called the Imagination Style, and after seeing it once, Yujiro not only masters it, but he does it even better than Baki

      Edit: also, iirc, the only reason he knows all martial arts is because of his copy ability (or at least martial arts like Udonde, as it wouldn't be possible for him to learn it outside of copying it from a royal descendant or books about it) 

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    • It's more likely that Yujiro knew about Xiao-Lee, but didn't know about it's abilities until he met Kaku. At least that's how I saw the conflicting statement.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      It's more likely that Yujiro knew about Xiao-Lee, but didn't know about it's abilities until he met Kaku. At least that's how I saw the conflicting statement.

      That's sounds about right, I can see that, especially because when he saw Kaku use it, he even says something along the lines of "That's Xiao-Lee! I knew it" or something

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    • Those are wiki multipliers which are obviously not acceptable but i'll give you something similar.

      Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats). 

      The style is called Kushinada Style:

      When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniquesshe uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

      So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Those are wiki multipliers which are obviously not acceptable but i'll give you something similar.

      Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats). 

      The style is called Kushinada Style:

      When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniquesshe uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

      So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple. 

      The physical difference between Katsumi and Pickle is High 8-C to 7-C, yet he's able to, and I quote, "bring Pickle to his knees for the first time in history" as well as allow the Hypersonic Katsumi hit at a High Hypersonic+ speed

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    • I wouldn't call that a multiplier really, that just means Katsumi has an attack that's 7-C.

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    • Yes but those numbers are just where you (by you i mean the Baki community) think they stand, not where they actually stand. That's the reason we do not take multipliers unless it's a stated number with good proof (if above 10x).

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    • To give it context outside of VS Battle Wiki, Katsumi is normally weaker than Baki who in turn is shown to be massively weaker than Pickle, only beating him with skill and similar speed, the same Pickle who's been shown to be about as strong as Yujiro who's stronger than anyone inverse

      that said, this is roughly how that fight went with this technique involved

      • When fighting Pickle, Katsumi's attacks are shown to be ineffective at first, but once Katsumi unleashes his improved Mach Punch , Pickle is brought to his knees for the first time in history.
      • When Pickle prepares for his final attack, Katsumi unveils his Hitless Blow and seemingly defeats the prehistoric warrior.
      • The move does have a downside in that it destroys the users arms due to not having the durability to withstand the breaking of the sound barrier at the speed with this force, though this weakness does not extend to Yujiro, as he was able to break the sound barrier with more force at slightly slower speeds effortlessly with no backlash during his fight with Baki
      • Despite being massively weaker and slower, Pickle respected Katsumi so much that he let him live after Katsumi passed out due to destroying his arms, having Pickle rip one off, and bleeding out.
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    • He hurt him with a Mach Punch too? Besides Hitless Blow? It just shows they aren't that far appart then. But eh, anyway, useless point, wiki multipliers and that's still not giving him a pass from High Class Disciple. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      He hurt him with a Mach Punch too? Besides Hitless Blow? It just shows they aren't that far appart then. But eh, anyway, useless point, wiki multipliers and that's still not giving him a pass from High Class Disciple. 

      The improved Mach Punch also has a 7-C rating, however the improved Mach Punch and the Hitless Blow both fall under the category of True Mach Punch, so they are still worlds apart. I don't think it's a useless point that Katsumi can almost take down someone massively stronger than himself due to this technique

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    • Can take down someone massively stronger, sure. I already adressed that though:

      Mikumo Kushinada who is Advanced Grand Master (the 2nd highest rank), has a disciple. That disciple is a 13 or so year old girl with a small body, yet she goes around desimating people way beyond her league physically casually (people who should be more or less comparable to kenichi in stats). 

      The style is called Kushinada Style:

      When most people use 30% skill and 70% skill in techniquesshe uses an absolute 100% skill and 0% strength.

      So he would sit still in the High Class Disciple. 

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    • Katsumi's pressure points and his joint feats are likely his best feats in terms of sheer shown skill. The attack is done through aligning his joints perfectly, so that should actually take priority over the AP of the thing. ( AP feats aren't really much of a skill feat, hence why I didn't use any in Kuroki's showcase. )

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Katsumi's pressure points and his joint feats are likely his best feats in terms of sheer shown skill. The attack is done through aligning his joints perfectly, so that should actually take priority over the AP of the thing. ( AP feats aren't really much of a skill feat, hence why I didn't use any in Kuroki's showcase. )

      What did you have in mind? The thousands of joints aligning for a True Mach Punch, or the Pressure Points of the QMLS?

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    • Once I get my massive CRT's done would you like to debate Kuroki vs Hayato Earl? More of a fun debate as opposed to attempting to make Kuroki >>>> Hayato, I'd just like to know how his shit compares.

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    • @Baki


      Both really, Katsumi strikes at several pressure points rapidly with his QMLS, True Mach Punch is more akin to crazy agility and body control.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Once I get my massive CRT's done would you like to debate Kuroki vs Hayato Earl? More of a fun debate as opposed to attempting to make Kuroki >>>> Hayato, I'd just like to know how his shit compares.

      Anytime buddy. Assuming i know who Kuroki is

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    • @Prince makes a good point, so as far as techniques go, this is Katsumi's move pool and what they require to use, such as the pressure points of QMLS, the 8 joints perfect alignment of Mach Punch, and the iirc one thousand joint alignment of Hitless Blow

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    • Up to like the hitless blow, literally do not even make the cut for Middle Class Disciple. 

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    • I suppose High Disciple makes sense, as current Katsumi skill stomps people we've agreed are Mid and High like any of the convicts and even himself and comparable combatants from earlier in the series. Considering Katsumi is only considered a 3rd Dan in Karate for the verse, I'd say this is a pretty good placement

      Next to discuss is Retsu Kaioh. To recap, he is considered impressive amongst Kaiohs who skill stomp the guys who do the boulder feat, the wave feat, and the candle feat. He was the 3rd most skilled participant in the Maximum Tournament, only losing to Baki because of Incomplete DB doubling his stats. He's the second best in China, only behind Kaku by the time of his death. He is truly one of few in the verse to have mastered his martial art, a martial art with 4,000 years of history and refinement

      His notable techniques include 

      ttps://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Spinning_Lotus

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Sunkei

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Invisible_Squash

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Toe_Use

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Windmill_Punch

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Crushing_Fist

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Mach_Punch

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Musunkei

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Defensive_Shaori

      https://baki.fandom.com/wiki/Roll_Kick

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    • Speaking of which I plan on doing a Baki: Powers and abilities CRT soon, a lot of the descriptions of the abilities just link to The Baki Wiki, which isn't an actual source and it has extremely vague descriptions, some of which don't even have any.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Speaking of which I plan on doing a Baki: Powers and abilities CRT soon, a lot of the descriptions of the abilities just link to The Baki Wiki, which isn't an actual source and it has extremely vague descriptions, some of which don't even have any.

      I think Prom plans to address powers and abilities in her CRT (and when I CRT'd Yujiro's page, I tried to stray away from using the wiki as much as possible, though I haven't done this with all the profiles)

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    • Honestly the Verse just needs a revision as a whole, not on the AP ( aside from Yujiro but Prom said she'd handle it.) Baki is a long ass Manga that needs a read, and it's best if we used the Manga to provide feats for the profiles rather than YouTube clips. ( Easier to navigate and it would take much less space than what they have rn. )

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Honestly the Verse just needs a revision as a whole, not on the AP ( aside from Yujiro but Prom said she'd handle it.) Baki is a long ass Manga that needs a read, and it's best if we used the Manga to provide feats for the profiles rather than YouTube clips. ( Easier to navigate and it would take much less space than what they have rn. )

      I have a site I can use for manga feats once the verse revision takes place, I've been looking for one for this reason

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    • Those abilities don't really look impressive.

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    • @Earl


      Kuroki is from Kengan Asura, which is a lot like Baki but with better art. The amount of skill feats in the verse are pretty much up there with Baki's aside from Yujiro. Lots of crazy shit mate

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Those abilities don't really look impressive.

      I was just thinking over how some of them straight counter some of the stuff I'm aware of in Kenichi like Sieg's 180 degree head turn getting countered by Spinning Lotus, Sunkei countering and Musunkei hard countering Kenichi "taking up space" thing, as well as how impressive his other abilities are like of course the perfect alignment of the 8 arm joints required for Mach Punch, the weaponizing of air from Invisible Squash, the skill required to be able to master Toe Use, using your toes to hit pressure points and grab hairs and such, Crushing Fist basically negging speed and strength to a certain degree, Defensive Xiao-Lee begin what it is, and Roll Kick begin a kinda useful move, though Roll Kick probably not being the most skillful, skill-requiring move at this level

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    • Wait actually, the Spinning Lotus gets countered by Sieg's 180 degree turn. Cus you can't snap his neck. 

      I'll respond to the others later.

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