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  • Ricsi-viragosi
    Ricsi-viragosi closed this thread because:
    Closed for now.
    23:48, March 26, 2020

    Hello there. Here we go again. I am here honestly to not only debunk the notion now that Re:Mind has been out for several days that 'Guardians' / 'Seekers' in the Base Game don't scale somewhat to Post Power of Waking Sora / Xehanort, but to describe things that maybe can help keep the upgrade the Guardians/Seekers previously got, and even upgrade existing keys prior to KH3. Also spoiler warning in the title. Due to (most) of these being relatively simple I won't be providing scans unless asked. Okay, here we go:


    2-C Upgrade (End of KH3 - Re:Mind only scales to this)

    • Scales only to KH3 Keyblade Graveyard level adversaries as no prior levels were capable of affecting this level.
    • Xehanort's Goal was to rewrite the concepts of Light & Darkness and remake the world. It wasn't just remaking the material world, but resetting Light and Darkness to make them equal, which due to the absurdity of this would requiring affecting both realms, which in prior threads was referred to as 2-C prior. Especially since he refers to both realms & Xehanort refers to world when referring to it being remade as being the Greater World and far more than merely the material world but all the Realms [Light, Darkness, Between] : "At present, the lanes and corridors that run between the worlds may only be traversed by us Keyblade wielders, and those who have given themselves over to darkness. As the former, our duty is to cross the chasms between worlds and guard against the latter, whose darkness corrupts and contaminates, so that no world need ever be lost again.Few Keyblade wielders remain now; I have heard of but a handful of others outside my circle. But the World is vast, and more of our kind may be out there.Now, in addition to the realm of light in which we reside, there is also a realm of darkness, and the realm between which connects the two. The realm of darkness is most forbidden; I am told none who set foot there have ever returned."
    • Both Re:Mind and Base KH3 refers to Light & Darkness being impossible to live without the other . In other words if her were to remake the Realm of Light , it would have to remake the Realm of Darkness as well, in other words a jointed feat of 2-C.
    • Realm Between connects both Realm of Light & Realm of Darkness.

    Support for Guardians / Seekers scaling to At the very least 3-A if not 2-C

    • Re:Mind has several characters holding their own against "Post-Xehanort Sora"
    • Re:Mind has Sora canonically utilize the datascape to take on data versions of every single entity after the events of Re:MInd's story, including Data
    • Every single Guardian [sans Kairi, but she scales now directly for other reasons] was capable of taking on Xehanort Clones in Re:Mind , in which these Xehanort clones were the same ones that gave Sora trouble even before taking on the X-Blade. Even Mickey was doing surprisingly well against multiple of them while tired and worn out.
    • All the Guardians can minimally affect Kingdom Hearts via the light from their keyblades, which while none of them are fully capable of stopping it, proves they somewhat scale.

    Re:Coded Continuation This was ignored but I'm here to sort of try this again as it's vitally important. The thread is here, but to sum it up:

    • Datascape was considered to be equivalent to the Real World / Realm of Light
    • Datascape was consistently called a Universe.
    • Data Sora's Heartless was going to destroy the Datascape which would require him in this particular case to not only destroy the data equivalent of 'all worlds', but the data 'Realm of Light' , which would qualify as at least 3-A. This was done in a far weaker version which Data Sora fodderized, who was intended to only rival Sora from the original KH1 title, and King Mickey [Post-KH2 but not much stronger than he was back in BBS] assisted Data-Sora and stomped the final version of Sora's Heartless, who is the posterboy scaling point for most of Kingdom Heart's higher end keybearers and high level entities.
    • We now have multiple points Data can be utilized to this end , such as in Union X where it can create alternate worldlines, and even in Re:Mind where now canonically Data can be used to preserve 3-As such as Kingdom Hearts and X-Blade. So 3-A for the Datascape isn't impossible even by the verse's standards for using data.
    • 3-A supports how through training the otherwise Tier 4s ended up crossing into 3-A in the short end of maybe a year.
    • It supports how High 4-C is literally for those scaling to severely weakened and heavily worn down keybearers. In-fact, even Pete scales above the Tier 4s of Zeus to such an extent he thought Sora was weak enough after fighting the Titans that he could stomp him into the ground.
    • The Structure of the Worlds is noted to be the following by Nomura's word, which included the Realms of Light & Darkness if specific worlds such as Oblivion and Twilight Town : "As for the structure of the worlds, first, the so-to-speak normal worlds—the ones that Sora, the Disney characters and we live on—are situated in the Realm of Light. If you picture those worlds as existing on the same level on top of a giant plane, then on a separate level, in other words on the reverse side, exists the Realm of Darkness.Regarding the Realm Between, four worlds have appeared so far: (A) Castle Oblivion, (B) Twilight Town, (C) Yen Sid's Tower, and (D) The World That Never Was. You can think of them as arranged like a stairway extending between the two Realm layers, something like Light < C < B > A > D > Darkness
    • Meaning if A,B,C,D exist in the Worlds within the Datascape , 9/10 the Realms associated with them would be such as well within the Datascape since they are directly associated with it due to being staircases between the Realms, which would increase the destruction caused by Sora's Heartless.
    • Not only do they state countless times that every world is within the Datascape, it was intended to be an equal counterpart to it.
    • If we go this route, it would mean the destruction of the Datascape would include these realms, and since the Datascape encompasses this cosmology it would explicitly wipe out both the Worlds & Realms within the Datascape, giving it at bare minimum a 3-A feat, if not potentially 2-C due to the Realm of Light and Darkness feat .
    • Destroying the Realms =/= Rewritting the Realm's Concepts such as the X-Blade did, So, scaling to their destruction doesn't make any of them comparable to the X-Blade at all.

    Scaling Who scales to Re:Coded ?(At least High 4-C, possibly/likely 3-A / 2-C or even straight up 3-A / 2-C)

    All those who scale to or above KH1 Maleficent's level (She didn't gain power since KH1 as she has currently shown when in Union X. She put up more of a fight than Sora's Heartless against Data-Sora in Castle Oblivion alongside Pete. She tanked Sora's Heartless' direct attack alongside Pete with no damage and only went there to calm it down and wasn't attempting to fight the Heartless . Only scale to First Form Sora's Heartless)

    Who scales to Re:Mind ? (2-C)

    Those who were essentially active in the Keyblade Graveyard. Technically Namine scales via empowering/creating the Lingering Will but via hax only that usually most enemies wouldn't allow her to do mid fight... So likely not combat applicable.

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    • Everything seems fine, althought I wouldn't do a profile for Naminé for now, her character when it comes to fighting is practically as nonexistent as Winnie the Pooh's as of now.

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    • Bump. That is understandable considering her lack of content for combat right now.

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    • Bump.

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    • This is good.

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    • Yes sora and kairi were able to battle Armored Xehanort who who was cloned with the power of the x-blade, but he was able to perform feats that the real armored xehanort was incapable of due to the fact that he had 12 no-name keyblades made from the hearts he aquired from the war was able to open the keyhole to multiple worlds and summon worlds which he then spilt off large meteors to devastate sora and kairi. Not to mention a clone did all this and sora and kairi defeat him with slight dofficulty he was aslo able to make glyphs in armored form just like x-blade xehanort he seemed stronger than his normal armored form in the base game

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    • @Bandit Always appreciate your support Bandit.

      @Sumguy Indeed. The feat putting them above base Xehanort as of Re:Mind was definitely one of the biggest shockers. Not to mention Kairi being revealed to be able to pressure Xemnas when a dual tag team of Roxas , Xion, and Axel couldn't do anything to him even when fighting together.

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    • Bump.

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    • Good lord, couldn't wait like...a week before this? Like I have not gad the chance to play it. Basicslly, I won't be giving input ubtil I do.

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    • Remind isn't even that long, the main thing is easy to complete in less than 2 hours if you skip some cutscenes, as half of them are stuff you should have seen already in vanilla KHIII (As they were reused exactly as they were for the most part).

      But as I know about not being spoiled and all of that, well, take your time, I guess.

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    • Give me a few days assuming this isn't concluded as I have other thing to do beyond just playing Re:Mind.

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    • Bump. Fair enough Dragon. Hoping it doesn't get concluded before then.

      They do confirm during Sora returning to Scala and talking to Xehanort that the Re:Mind Sora is after he fights Xehanort in Scala. It's not that important in the grand scheme of things, but does make scaling slightly more consistent.

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    • Bump.

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    • I agree with 2-C for the following reasons; Kingdom Hearts is the embodiment of all hearts. This should include the hearts of every person and world in the realm of light, the realm of darkness, the realm of sleep and the datascape. In addition to that the incomplete Kingdom Hearts from Kingdom Hearts I was a door connecting the realm of light and the realm of darkness that brought the worlds that had fallen into the realm of darkness back. Because of this I'm pretty sure that Kingdom Hearts has a multiversal range. Since the realm of darkness had an appearance in Kingdom Hearts I it should have an equivalent in the datascape since it is the journal describing the events of that time.

      I don't agree with the points about Maleficent and Namine. The Maleficent in Castle Ovlivion is an illusion and not the real one. There are also multiple endings depending on how well you do against her. She also didn't directly fight against Data-Sora. It was never stated that Namine empowered the Lingering Will. She just called out to him. Considering that he already existed in Kingdom Hearts II as a secret boss and we saw his origin in Kingdom Hearts birth by sleep saying that she created him makes even less sense.

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    • I originally wanted a semicolon in my first sentence from my last comment. Regarding the destruction of the datascape: If it is a universe, isn't that low 2-C even if you don't believe there to be two realms since that would technically destroy it's spacetime?

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    • @Nehz XZX

      Maleficent and Pete recall being in the datascape as seen in KH3D

      I have to also totally agree on the Naminé part.

      I support everything else on your part, including Low 2-C Datascape.

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    • I'm not denying that Maleficent and Pete were in the datascape. Their counterparts in Castle Oblivion were illusions. All encounters outside of that place were the real ones.

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    • The problem though is that the illusions functioning like data, they were fabricated based identically on Sora's memories of them and their multiple encounters in the datascape. So the Pete he fought in Oblivion should be comparable unless we consider that Sora remembered a Pete superior to the one we know of.

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    • I don't think that it was said that they were based on his memories. Data-Sora had already lost his memories of their encounters at that point. There are also multiple versions to the result of that fight. You can take a long time against him and he will be unfazed. The opposite is the case with defeating him really fast.

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    • I'd also like to point out that Pete and Maleficent fought against Sora's heartless and lost. Afterwards Data-Sora had a fight against him that he would have lost without Mickey. If Pete's fight in Castle Oblivion is really harder for Data-Sora, then that Pete is simply superior to the one he fought before that.

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    • Where did you get that indication at all ? It wasn't a "fight". They weren't trying to "fight"it . As mentioned in the OP, and directly shown, they were trying to calm it down and convince it to fight for them. Not once did they actively take it on, we just know their durability scales to it as they survived the attack.

      Then when fighting Dragon Maleficent, she was noted to give Data-Sora immense trouble in the files of the game. Even when held off it was clear unlike with KH1 she wasn't vanquished after fighting Data-Sora, merely was temporarily subdued but not to a knock out, as we hear Maleficent berating Data-Sora at the end of the fight, unlike with what happened in KH 1 where Sora where he can knock her out to the point she has to take a while to reform.

      We know for a fact Maleficent didn't get stronger. We see it in KHUX when she was noted well after Re:Coded to merely be in the same power level and has the same power level she has one first meets her. She hasn't gained any power.

      Besides, I didn't even get into scaling to the Bugs, who were noteably capable of ending the Datascape as noted by Data-Riku, who both Pete and Maleficent / Pete scale far above anyways since they are treated as far bigger threats than Data-Riku, who is the Datascape , capable of manipulating it's whole totality, and other such feats. Also hence why Dragon Maleficent is > Maleficent > Data-Riku = Datascape level entities.

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    • Watch this video[[1]] at 1:54:17 and you see that Maleficent referred to it as opponent.

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    • That would still unironically mean she lasted in a fight against it for an extended period of time off screen. She at least scales > the Bugs and Data-Riku who they scale to the Datascape... So genuinely it doesn't matter how she did versus the Heartless... or if she fought it... it's merely a supporting feat.

      Another thing that proves the Datascape isn't an outlier is whose taking on those scaling to them. It isn't the cream of the crop , it's those like Donald, Goofy, Pete and Maleficent : Entities comparatively weaker than KH1 Final Bosses up until far after Dream Drop Distance

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    • I never argued against her scaling. She just doesn't scale above Sora's heartless whom she couldn't beat even with Pete fighting alongside her.

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    • I think it's safe to say that Keyblades are empowered by the hearts and with that the feelings of their wielders. Aqua was capable of defeating Ventus-Vanitas and shattering his X-Blade after asking Terra and Ven to give her stength. When Aqua was faced with multiple Darksides in the Realm of Darkness where even the weakest Heartless are a threat to Keyblade Wielders like her and about to give up, Terra's and Ventus's Keyblades came flying to her aid and one-shotted the Darksides. In ReMind Mickey was able to go from being nearly defeated by the Xehanort Replicas even with the help from six fellow Keyblade Wielders to one-shotting multiple ones of them at once with sheer willpower and thinking about the bonds he Shares the other Keyblade Wielders. Therefore the Keyblade and all Keyblade Wielders should get Empowerment and a far higher Attack Potency when enhanced by their emotions.

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    • I agree with 2C not just because of everything posted here but also this interview: https://www.dualshockers.com/tetsuya-nomura-reveals-new-details-on-kingdom-hearts-3-remind-dlc/ Narmura basically says the story mode organization was nerfed and the Data versions are their real power levels. Which means by story interpretation, Sora fought Marluxia with a doom counter, Larxene cloning herself 20 times and moving faster then light, and Luxord who can shift demensions and fate all at the same time...AND WON. Thats saying nothing about Nort trio and the old man himself with a completed X-Blade. Sora is a damn god now

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    • I mean, chances are the main reason they didn't use some of their best techniques is becuase the wide Area of effect can lead to friendly fire, which clearly doesn't happen with the "limiter".

      But yeah, they theorically should be able to do all the same things as in the data fights in theory.

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    • when the creator himself says the characters were nerfed due to gameplay reasons its hard to argue the point. and friendly fire has almost never been a thing in kingdom hearts and organization 13 was clearly skilled in using their techniques togeather. Both Marulxia and Larxene are showing using their Limit Breaks at the same time. they were obviously not afraid of friendly fire. in fact every story battle of organization 13 in KH3 they are shown using their limit breaks at the same time. and old man Xehnaort was tossing around thounsands of keyblades at one very small platfrom. keep in mind due to gameplay reasons only, they were nerfed as said by the creator himself. storywise they were not nerfed. This means by story standards, they were all fighting with the power levels of their data versions. 

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    • And Xigbars Limit Break inparticular was tthe entire arena wide and he clearly wasint worried it would hit relica riku. Same thing with both Marluxia and Larxenes. keep in mind again thier limit breaks in the story fights were NERFED FOR GAMEPLAY REASONS ONLY. 

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    • Considering they weren't worried about hitting their fellow Seekers of Darkness should we give all of them intangible attacks?

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    • it could be, but it also could be that the organization memebers just are good at synchronzing their attacks which is not an uncommon theme in kingdom hearts since sora syncs his attacks with everone he meets

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    • They would in that case still have to make sure not to hit the other members or to somehow dodge or avoid the large scale attacks of the other members.

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    • then i would consider their attacks intangible because Marulxias and Larxenes limit breaks overlap each each other and larxene even zigzags THROUGH Maruluxias scyth. Also their probobly intangible themselves while in limit break from as they cannot be hurt even with magic. and their limit breaks cannot be blocked they must be avoided

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    • Considering that pretty much everybody has Non-Physical Interaction wouldn't that be more of a Resistance against that?

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    • resistence would be when they actaully give themselves an armor buff. in the data battles all of them have an ability that temeporily gives them an extra hp bar in the form of an armor bar. the armor must either be destroyed or waited out depending on the battle. (Marulxias armor is weak to fire attacks however and will instently break upon contact with any fire spell) during their limit breaks however they are immune to all damage. If it were a simple matter of resistence even a fire spell would hurt marluxia as he clearly has a weakness to it

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    • How is the armor buff a Resistance against Non-Physical Interaction? As far as I can tell one can interact with them just fine while they are using it. They simply have an additional layer of protection. That seems more like a form of Forcefield Creation to me. I don't quite understand your last sentence but you did mention prior to that that Marluxia's armor is weak to fire attacks.

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    • im saying its more likely that during their limit breaks they are invulnerable. remember they have to be hard prssed to use thier limit breaks, they cant just use it off hand and after they use it they leave themselves wide open to attacks. if limit breaks only incresed resistence, Marluxia would still take damage from a fire attack. Sora is also invulnerable during certain attacks and you basically have to use those invincbility frames to fully utilize all of sora;s abilites. for examble during a form change sora is completly invunerable. 

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    • Okay, that definitely does seem like Invulnerability. Every Seeker of Darkness who doesn't have that already on their profile like for example Larxene should have that added then.

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    • Oh yeah, they seem to become intangible like how the Dusk did to Roxas in KHII, so that can fall as such.

      Anyways, @Nehz XZX and @Zorback32, please grant yourselves some profile pictures, as right now the discussion is a bit hard to track down because of that.

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    • I have picked a profile picture now. I didn't pick one earlier since I don't care about these sorts of things but if it actually helps, I'll do it.

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    • got a profile pic i was the same as Nehz but when it comes to things Kingdom Hearts related ill throw my 2 cents in 

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    • Thanks guys.

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    • another thing to point out is Sora now has a type of ressuerction power. We see this in the base game where he saves the other guardians Hearts from falling into enternal darkness, think of it like a sleep you can never wake up from similer to when Riku needed to rescue Sora in DDD) and he can actaully bring people back to life. Kairi being the examble here had her heart litteraly torn to pieces and subsquently her body. This effectivly means death in kingdom hearts as it is stated both in journal and secret reports that when both body and heart are destroyed the person dies. Sora brought a destroyed heart and body back to life, but of course as we know this cost him greatly as Charithy said he will lose his powers if he saved Kairi from such a fate. Not sure what type of ressurection that falls under but its still pretty broken. 

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    • That just falls as ressurection, which is already listed and all, there's no multiple "types" of ressurection on the site.

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    • oh i see that he does have ressurection on his profile my bad 

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    • Everyone else who has the Power of Waking should also have Resurrection through it.

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    • Ressurection is already an standard power for the Keyblade from the reasons above, so editing over 40 profiles for that isn't needed.

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    • The Keyblade is part of the Standard Equipment but I'd still add the ability.

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    • There's also how many Keyblade Masters actually holding the Power of Waking is dubious for the most part, so I would just leave that as it is.

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    • I agree with everything

      The Re:Coded stuff was kind ignored up to this point

      Btw, why Xehanort is only 3A and not low 2C in the profile? Just asking

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:

      Btw, why Xehanort is only 3A and not low 2C in the profile? Just asking

      Well, why would he qualify for Low 2-C?

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    • Because he was going to affect and influence the Realm of Light in its entirety,in which every world has its own order,laws and its own space time(this was shown in DDD)

      Also Xehanort stated that the World was going to retur when it started,that it eill be their second chance, a new beginning(he said a new start)


      Even if this isn't enough for low 2C, shouldn't he be High 3A since there are countless worlds

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    • I don't think that it was confirmed to be an outright infinite amount of worlds. Countless is simply more than you would bother or be able to count.

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    • Well countless and infinite are Synonyms, so it could be

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    • A "could be" doesn't confirm it though. You could have a "possibly" or "likely" with enough evidence.

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    • Gogeta vs Sora when

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    • Wouldn't that be a hax, AP or Speed stomp?

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    • its confirmed that every star in the ski is a wrold. in our universe not every light in the sky is a planet per say but it is a star or something that gives off energy. the light the stars make is the heart of each world and as it is confimred that there are endless amounts of stars in the sky and more are constently being born the same can be said for worlds in kingdom hearts. when a star dies a new one is born so it stands to reasons worls work the same. Xehnaort was going to affect every being and everything that had a heart. Theres arguably more hearts then there are worlds themselves. The darkness Xehnaort was gonna release upon the realm of light would have made people give into the darkness and subsaquently every world would of fallen to darkness. Id say X-blade Xehanort is 2C easily it wasint just worlds he would of affected but peoples hearts themselves

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: A "could be" doesn't confirm it though. You could have a "possibly" or "likely" with enough evidence.

      Yeah

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    • Also, isn't the Lilo and Stich world a universe? It is definitely bigger than other worlds and there is a statement that confirms this

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:
      Also, isn't the Lilo and Stich world a universe? It is definitely bigger than other worlds and there is a statement that confirms this

      ineedeed its like a pocket demension with its own universe and worlds. kinda like how complete and intact worlds can live inside a computer or in Jimmy's journal, all ot them are considered worlds becasue each world has a heart and a heart is confirmed able to live inside data

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    • I don't think that world has been confirmed to contain other worlds.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      I don't that world has been confirmed to contain other Worlds.

      it clearly has stars in the background and the "light" emitting from stars is considered a worlds heart. and if thousands of worlds can live inside the book of prophices and jimmy;s journal there is no reason they can also be hundreads of worlds in other worlds

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    • The world info on the Granx Council Woman even states that she oversees the universe, even tho she is confined to her own world

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    • Pretty much every world with a night sky has stars in the background. Stars don't seem to be always treated as worlds like for example at the Mysterious Tower and the Pride Lands. I do, however, tend to think that the Lilo and Stitch world is bigger than this site treats it as.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Pretty much every world with a night sky has stars in the background. Stars don't seem to be always treated as worlds like for example at the Mysterious Tower and the Pride Lands. I do, however, tend to think that the Lilo and Stitch world is bigger than this site treats it as.

      Considering the fact that world is based on the Lilo and Stich movie it makes sense if that world is a whole universe with its own space-time,order and laws

      This is backed up by the Grand CouncilWoman in game description

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    • Yeah, if you think about it, the world should be about the same as in the film it came from.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Yeah, if you think about it, the world should be about the same as in the film it came from.

      Yep

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    • 6988360-img 1832 (1)

      This confirms what i said before

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    • If "worlds" are Universe sized, then just KHI Sora is 2-C (As we know the KH Ansem held contained and returned 200 "worlds"), and anyone in KHIII is straight up 2-B as we all know it's stated that there's as many "worlds" as stars in the sky, which the true KH holds and is able to erase to make a "new" single world a la fairy tale era.

      So yeah, this affects the entire thing even more.

      I originally had in mind to do the CRT regarding that after this, but I guess it's more efficient to handle it too now.

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    • Wasn't 2-B rejected?

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    • Bobsican wrote: If "worlds" are Universe sized, then just KHI Sora is 2-C (As we know the KH Ansem held contained and returned 200 "worlds"), and anyone in KHIII is straight up 2-B as we all know it's stated that there's as many "worlds" as stars in the sky, which the true KH holds and is able to erase to make a "new" single world a la Union X era.

      So yeah, this affects the entire thing even more.

      I originally had in mind to do the CRT regarding that after this, but I guess it's more efficient to handle it too now.


      I personally approve the a world=a Universe thing

      But even denying that, the Lilo and Stitch world is confirmed to be universe size by in game sources

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    • It was, but with the new size of realities standards, it's worth a try once once more.

      There's also how I didn't debate at all to support it now that I think about it...

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    • Also taking in account Xehanort reports and DDD, each world has its own order,sets of laws and space time(it is separated by barrier from other worlds and has its own time)

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    • Yeah, there's also how Riku and Joshua indirectly confirm back in KH3D that each "world" holds its own timeline.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Sera_EX/Sandbox

      Yep, considering what the criteria is, there seems to be enought stuff to back up "worlds" being universe sized.

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    • Welp, I agreed before, I'll do so now.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Yeah, there's also how Riku and Joshua indirectly confirm back in KH3D that each "world" holds its own timeline.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:Sera_EX/Sandbox

      Yep, considering what the criteria is, there seems to be enought stuff to back up "worlds" being universe sized.


      PicsArt 02-04-05.48.53

      This one,right?

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    • Yes, that one.

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    • Okay, it seems Dragon no longer cares, so we'll have to ask other staff members.

      Sera is busy as usual, Cal lacks the time and likely is about as interested as Dragon, I guess we'll have to discuss by ourselves for a while.

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    • Okay, but what do we have left to discuss?

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    • Basically what we agree on and what we're doubtful on and why, if any.

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    • What would suggest universe-sized worlds in context with the new size of realities standards?

      I recall the scan with the Grand Councilwoman and the worlds being different space-times. Anything else that would be noteworthy to mention?

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    • Maybe the fact that the sky sistem in the worlds/=/lanes in between sky sistem

      Also,speaking of KH1,the End of the World is stated to be made by the remains of the worlds dedtroyed by the heartless and it is stated to be endless by Ansem if i recall correctly

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    • Could you provide a link for the statement?

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    • Of which of the 2 thing?

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    • I was referring to the statement about the End of the World being endless but having a link for the statement about the sky system would be nice as well.

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    • PicsArt 02-04-09.37.26

      The fact that worlds sky sistem/=/lanes in between sky sistem comes from the fact that despite Gummiship having interstellar travel he could not leave his own world without dark corridors Also Eraqus had to unlock the lanes in between to travel between worlds And the lanes in between sky sistem is completely different from the sky sistem of a world(the stars in the lanes between ARE NOT the ones from a world's sky

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    • So the stars from Destiny Island, Traverse Town and Land of Departure are worlds but this doesn't apply to the other worlds?

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    • Probably i explained myself badly

      The fact is this, Gummiship have interstellar travel yet they cannot leave their own world

      Now i do not think that the walls between worlds only apply to a planet, that makes no sense

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    • Well, if we think about Toy Box and San Fransokyo, then we should realize that walls between worlds only applying to a planet wouldn't make sense based on the respective settings of the films they come from, which should be the same for these worlds since these films are canon to them.

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    • Exactly

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    • lets also not forget like i said earlier both the book of prophices and Jimmy's journal house many worlds as well so they are like their own pocket universes. Jimmy's journal even had Land of Departure (castle Oblivion) so there is no reason why either cant have every wolrd in exsistence. This is most likely why Melefecent wants the book of prophcies so badly. So i would say each world is also able to house its own universe. 

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    • Xehanort1307
      Xehanort1307 removed this reply because:
      Pushed the send button for error
      22:28, February 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Also

      There as many world as there are stars right?

      But there are countless worlds, so doesn't this mean that there are countless stars?

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    • Yes, there's a countless number.

      But I have to clarify, countless = infinite

      Countless only gets you in 2-B, even if it expanded infinitely (Looks at Mario and Dragon Ball Xenoverse), it would just remain in 2-B, even if high-end on the tier.

      To be 2-A you need at least an "infinite" number of universes, rather than a value that tries to reach it, as it never truly will.

      However they would be about trillions above baseline either way considering how many stars there can be as a low-end and all of that.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Yes, there's a countless number.

      But I have to clarify, countless = infinite

      Countless only gets you in 2-B, even if it expanded infinitely (Looks at Mario and Dragon Ball Xenoverse), it would just remain in 2-B, even if high-end on the tier.



      To be 2-A you need at least an "infinite" number of universes, rather than a value that tries to reach it, as it never truly will.

      Oh i know

      Countless in this case it is more like a sort of high 2B

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    • Xehanort1307
      Xehanort1307 removed this reply because:
      I pushed for error
      22:20, February 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • i cant for sure say there are an unlimited amount of universes in Kingdom  Hearts yet. once we know more about the book of prophicies that might change though. But lets consider for a moment that the realm of light is its own univese, jimmy's journal is its own universe with every world as the realm of light, and the book of prophices is also its own universe with all the worlds of the realm of light. Thats a countless number of worlds x3. Heck if you factor in castle oblivion that number becomes 4 because its been confimred it would be impossible to search every room in castle obvlion and each room you go in is a memeory of a wolrd you visisted with all of that worlds rules and even hearts. Id put that at a high 2C or 2B for sure

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    • Also, this is KH3 stuff for God tiers, Scala seems to be a separate dimension that could very well be its own universe

      Keep in mind that Scala is "the nexus from whuch all world springs"

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:
      Also, this is KH3 stuff for God tiers, Scala seems to be a separate dimension that could very well be its own universe

      Keep in mind that Scala is "the nexus from whuch all world springs"

      and its supposedly a sanctuary for keyblade wielders specefically. why just keyblade wielders unless there was a specfic reason? for all we know (this is now pure speculation and doesint need to be considere in the tiering process) keyblade wielders create hearts and worlds. and as we know creation stomps destruction power scaling. you cant just make an enitre world with life no matter how powerful you are otherwise. However YOU CAN CREATE A HEART. I direct you to Dr.Finklestain KH1 

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    • Zorback32 wrote:

      Xehanort1307 wrote:
      Also, this is KH3 stuff for God tiers, Scala seems to be a separate dimension that could very well be its own universe

      Keep in mind that Scala is "the nexus from whuch all world springs"

      and its supposedly a sanctuary for keyblade wielders specefically. why just keyblade wielders unless there was a specfic reason? for all we know (this is now pure speculation and doesint need to be considere in the tiering process) keyblade wielders create hearts and worlds. and as we know creation stomps destruction power scaling. you cant just make an enitre world with life no matter how powerful you are otherwise. However YOU CAN CREATE A HEART. I direct you to Dr.Finklestain KH1 


      Well considering the fact that The World was recreated by the light in children hearts i will not be suprised if keyblade wielders of the era of Young Xehanort or before can create entire worlds

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    • Okay, let's see...

      If "Worlds" = Universes gets accepted, then basically everyone in the verse that's currently at High 4-C goes to 2-C, and those that currently are at 3-A go straight up to 2-B.

      Meaning that this would become the new focus as this is simply above the original idea at the OP

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    • Bobsican wrote: Okay, let's see...

      If "Worlds" = Universes gets accepted, then basically everyone in the verse that's currently at High 4-C goes to 2-C, and those that currently are at 3-A go straight up to 2-B.

      Meaning that this would become the new focus as this is simply above the original idea at the OP

      Agreed, for now it is better to not stray to much from the original topic

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Okay, let's see...

      If "Worlds" = Universes gets accepted, then basically everyone in the verse that's currently at High 4-C goes to 2-C, and those that currently are at 3-A go straight up to 2-B.

      Meaning that this would become the new focus as this is simply above the original idea at the OP

      ok for the sake of a 2C argument i still would use the fact that the book of prophices, jimmy's journal, and castle obvlion are all counterparts to the realm of light and as OP said the X-blade and Kingdom Hearts opening would have affected all of them and all of the "countless worlds and hearts" they house. It would of affected the very nature of reality it would of been an apocolspe for anything that had a heart and hearts are defenitly consider everywhere and worlds like we discussed have hearts. thats still multi-universe level because it would of affected at least 3 if not four seperate universes 

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:
      Also, this is KH3 stuff for God tiers, Scala seems to be a separate dimension that could very well be its own universe

      Keep in mind that Scala is "the nexus from whuch all world springs"

      i'm think it was stated in the journal that Scala has infinite size  but i'm not so sure.

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    • Okay, let's leave the "Worlds" = Universes for another thread, this is extreme derailing now that I think about it, that can get its own thread.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Okay, let's leave the "Worlds" = Universes for another thread, this is extreme derailing now that I think about it, that can get its own thread.

      As I explained in my last comment Jimmy’s journal the book of prophecies and castle Oblivion are considered their own universe because 1: they hold all the same worlds as the realm of light: 2:they have every heart as the realm of light. (See Re:Coded data Sora is still sora and still has his heart so both sora are the same but from different universes)3: same thing for book of prophecies is the reason micky Donald and goofy appear in KHXU their the same characters with the same hearts but in both a different timeline and different universe. This is for the 2C argument

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    • I guess everyone currently agrees with "Worlds" being = universes and the stuff on the OP leaving the new scaling stuff from the former at a side?

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    • Bobsican wrote: I guess everyone currently agrees with "Worlds" being = universes and the stuff on the OP leaving the new scaling stuff from the former at a side?

      I vote in favor yes

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    • Bobsican wrote: Okay, let's leave the "Worlds" = Universes for another thread, this is extreme derailing now that I think about it, that can get its own thread.

      True

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    • Bobsican wrote: I guess everyone currently agrees with "Worlds" being = universes and the stuff on the OP leaving the new scaling stuff from the former at a side?

      Like i said before, i strongly agree with worlds=universes, i also agree with the Re Coded stuff

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    • If the Re:Coded stuff is being agreed on too, then Data-Sora, Maleficent and Pete jump to 2-B too, althought on a lower scale than those that scale to the true KH because the difference is countless x1 against at least countless x4

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    • Wouldn't the Datascape have an equivalent to the Realm of Darkness since it technically made an appearance in Kingdom Hearts I after the scene where Ansem opens the Kingdom Hearts Door to Darkness and gets destroyed?

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    • Well, I can see that being the case, but the tier remains the same if we stick to "Worlds" = Universes, otherwise it would just be 2-C

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    • What would we treat the realms as? Are they now bigger universes that contain smaller universes?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      What would we treat the realms as? Are they now bigger universes that contain smaller universes?

      Pretty much, yes, we did actually agreed before that they were pocket realities than just simple planets as far I remember.

      Oh well, I guess we'll have to contact the active supporters on the verse page for input once more.

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    • If the worlds=universes stuff gets accepted then most of the cast(the keyblade wielders and the too villains in particular) jumps to 2B

      Otherwise we still have 2C stuff before KH3

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:
      If the worlds=universes stuff gets accepted then most of the cast(the keyblade wielders and the too villains in particular) jumps to 2B

      Otherwise we still have 2C stuff before KH3

      what would that put donald at then? He freaking obliterated Terr-Nort who is arguably stronger then YX because its Terra's body. And Goofy shouting "Donald Dont" clearly shows donald has used ZettaFlare before. keep in mind the only other character in all of Square library that has that ability is that goddess from Braverily Defult and she needed the spell bestowed upon her. Donald can fire it off any time he wants albeit at the cost of losing conciousness which is pretty cheep trade 

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    • We'll work on the scaling chain later, but Donald is quite high anyways.

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    • Donald Zettaflare>Lingering Will cannon

      Its no joke

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    • Tho i never quite understood if Donald was dead or just unconscious in that scene

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    • The latter really, Riku said their hearts were still there, including Donald's.

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    • Oh i see

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    • I was wondering, the Dive into the Heart, how big they are?

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    • Well, there's really nothing beyond that... circle, so just that size as far I'm aware.

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    • Well it is more of metaphysical stuff so it is difficult to understand, it was just a curiosty of mine, maybe i missed something

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    • Hearts are surprisingly simple once you get what they are, just think of them as the "Abstract Existence" of its holder.

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    • Yeah, i know that

      They are made by the concepts of light and darkness and they differs from a soul

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    • Yep.

      I guess I'll go ahead and ask Sera to share her thoughts here.

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    • Would the size of the worlds affect the speed ratings?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Would the size of the worlds affect the speed ratings?

      I guess so, for now the profiles says that they traverse solar sistems in 130 seconds

      If this 2B thing gets approved they should be much faster

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    • About how much faster would that be?

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    • It would be a considerable jump in MFTL+ tier since they would be traversing universes in 130 seconds

      Also regardless of the 2B stuff, Ventus traversed the Deep Space world which is a universe(confirmed by the Grand CouncilWoman description)

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    • Oh no, they would remain as MFTL+, as the "worlds" are within a pocket reality, and because of that, travelling across multiple "worlds" at once isn't any different from just travelling across constellations (which currently is anyways), so no speed changes are happening.

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    • But shouldn't they become more higher in the MFTL+ tier if the update is approved?

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    • Well, the Deep Space calc could be recalculated for higher results, as it now could be based on the movie it originally comes from, now assuming a distance of multiple galaxies instead of some stars.

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    • That is i what i meant

      There is a huge difference between traversing some stars in 130 seconds and traversing multiple galaxies in 130 seconds

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    • According to Wikipedia the diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light-years which would be the distance travelled in that instance since they would need to go beyond the edge of the observable universe and reach the target location from the edge of it's observable universe.

      The current calculation is using 4.24 light-years. With the new distance that would be a speed boost of more than 20 billion times and with the current calculation giving a speed of around 1 million times the speed of light that would result in more than 20 quadrillion times the speed of light if I'm not wrong.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      According to Wikipedia the diameter of the observable universe is 93 billion light-years which would be the distance travelled in that instance since they would need to go beyond the edge of the observable universe and reach the target location from the edge of it's observable universe.

      The current calculation is using 4.24 light-years. With the new distance that would be a speed boost of more than 20 billion times and with the current calculation giving a speed of around 1 million time the speed of light that would result in more than 20 quadrillion times the speed of light if I'm not wrong.

      it wouldint surprise me Terra-nort took out three guardians through speed alone and freaking goofy of all people was fast enough to block him 

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    • While Terranort is superior to most of the Guardians i think most of them took him lightly, expecially Sora

      It seems to me that they underestimated him and were completely unprepared for his speed

      Remind this: Terranort is on par with the Lingering Will, who is stronger than Final Xemnas(given the fact that in KH2 Final Mix is stated to be the strongest opponent ever encounter)

      Tho it is probable that Terronort is too fast for a Guardian like Ventus

      Axel reacted to him and blocked his attack

      Also Terranort strenght makes sense since he is Terra's body and strenght+Xehanort's heart+Darkness amp

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    • 3-A is flatout wrong. Xehanort is not just 3-A. He is supposed to be At least High 4-C, 3-A with Kingdom Hearts. His AP description as it stands now even clearly carries the context of “this isn’t exactly scaleable”. Furthermore, Xehanort used one 3-A attack during the final clash with Sora, in which he drew power directly from Kingdom Hearts and fired it at Sora, and he one-shot him with it.

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    • I trust Sera's sense of judgement.

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    • The OP has presented a lot of different points that would scale characters to 3-A or above. You would have to address each one of these to prove 3-A wrong. I'd also like to tell you that I don't see how Xehanort's AP description carries the context about it not exactly being scalable. You would have to elaborate on that for me to understand that. Sora being one-shot by an attack from Xehanort is kinda invalidated as an argument against him scaling somewhat by him managing to repel the attack with the help from only two more people: Donald and Goofy.

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    • Xehanort was going to rewrite the conceptual nature of the universe. That’s not exactly powerscaling-friendly.

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    • The description doesn't describe it as conceptual rewriting. There is also the fact that Sora managed to repel Xehanort's attack with Donald and Goofy's help so they would scale to some degree. This is the same attack from the final clash that initially one-shotted Sora.

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    • I will say that Sora losing to said beam and only overpowering it at the end could actually be a textbook outlier.

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    • He overpowered it at the end with Donald's and Goofy's help and was visibly struggling before that. That doesn't seem to suggest an outlier to me. It only means that Donald and Goofy provided the strength that Sora needed at that moment and lacked on his own.

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    • So, did anyone read anything concerning the Re:Coded stuff which would upgrade them to 3-A even without KH3 ?

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    • I have read it and agree with the upgrade but I don't think that everyone did. Regarding KH3 and 3-A, I'd like to add that while Xehanort one-shotted Sora during the final clash Sora wasn't instantly overwhelmed. Take a look at this video at 10:43: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nvp0vRWc0Q. Sora managed to hold his own for about 3 seconds. If he was immensely inferior he would have been overwhelmed instantly with no time delay once the beam reached Sora.

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    • Now that I think about it, you can actually argue against Sora having been one-shotted by Xehanort. A One-Shot is defined as defeating an opponent with a single attack and the final clash happened at the end of the battle so you can't actually say that Xehanort one-shotted Sora since we, as far as I know, don't have any canon statement about how much damage Sora sustained in the battle prior to that or that he was healed back to full health at that point. Although that might be a moot point since the end of the battle remains the same even if you don't take any damage during it as the video I have linked shows.

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • Okay.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      I will say that Sora losing to said beam and only overpowering it at the end could actually be a textbook outlier.

      Are we going to ignore that it was thanks to Donald and Goofy helping? At worst they would just scale as 1/3rd of Xehanort's power, until you remember that together they were able to overpower it with the technique they did afterwards, which implies an higher rating than that.

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    • No need to focus exclusively on KH3 tho

      There is also the Re Coded stuff that puts then at 3A long before KH3

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    • Good point, that also supports it not being an outlier while we are at that.

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    • If the Datascape is a universe, then destroying it should be Low 2-C. There is also the fact that the Realm of Darkness made an appearance in KH1 so that would actually make the Datascape contain two universe-sized realms. This would put them at 2-C.

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    • There is also the fact that Sora's heartless was going to destroy the Datascape and affecting the RoL

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote:
      There is also the fact that Sora's heartless was going to destroy the Datascape and affecting the RoL

      And Sora's heartless was massivly stronger then the one he fought in the real world (RoL) because the bugs were super charging it 

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    • Zorback32 wrote:

      Xehanort1307 wrote:
      There is also the fact that Sora's heartless was going to destroy the Datascape and affecting the RoL

      And Sora's heartless was massivly stronger then the one he fought in the real world (RoL) because the bugs were super charging it 

      That doesn't make sense to me since the real world counterpart of Sora's Heartless was never an opponent.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      Zorback32 wrote:

      Xehanort1307 wrote:
      There is also the fact that Sora's heartless was going to destroy the Datascape and affecting the RoL
      And Sora's heartless was massivly stronger then the one he fought in the real world (RoL) because the bugs were super charging it 
      That doesn't make sense to me since the real world counterpart of Sora's Heartless was never an opponent.

      its described as his shadow most of the time and only menifests in his heart/ station of awekining most of the time but its still Sora's heartless. lets assume for a moment that he never fought a version of his heartless in the ROL though. Giant Shadaw Heartless are still considered one of the strongest variations of heartless to the point they have boss amounts of hp bars. the heartless data sora fought was not only stronger then those normal giant heartless because of the bugs supercharging it, but it should also scale because it was in fact sora's heartless. Sora's heartless at worst should be as strong as his rage form/anti-form which is pretty damn high already. times that by the fact he was fighting his heartless and the fact it was supercharged by bugs, its probobly one of the strongest heartless in the series 

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    • Isn't Sora's Heartless that one time when he got turned into a Heartless after stabbing himself willingly with the Keyblade of heart in order to release Kairi's heart?

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Isn't Sora's Heartless that one time when he got turned into a Heartless after stabbing himself willingly with the Keyblade of heart in order to release Kairi's heart?

      like sora himself there are technically 2 versions of his heartless. data sora isint really sora but he still has sora's heart. And they didnt inspect the journal until after the events of KH2, so i would assume as sora got stronger, so did his heartless. I would also assume roxas's streangth also directly affected sora's heartless streangth. Also btw Sora Data Sora beat roaxas and he was far weaker then his KH2 form and roxas would smash sora's heartless with ease 

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    • Zorback32 wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote:
      Isn't Sora's Heartless that one time when he got turned into a Heartless after stabbing himself willingly with the Keyblade of heart in order to release Kairi's heart?

      like sora himself there are technically 2 versions of his heartless. data sora isint really sora but he still has sora's heart. And they didnt inspect the journal until after the events of KH2, so i would assume as sora got stronger, so did his heartless. I would also assume roxas's streangth also directly affected sora's heartless streangth. Also btw Sora Data Sora beat roaxas and he was far weaker then his KH2 form and roxas would smash sora's heartless with ease 

      I don't understand really. Sora's Heartless from the Datascape is based on that one time Sora turned into a Heartless if I understood it right. Since when is it also based on the Darkside from the Station of Awakening? I don't think that was actually said.

      Also Sora's Heartless became stronger along with Data-Sora according to my understanding of what was said in Re:Coded so how is the real Sora getting stronger relevant for the strength of Sora's Heartless in the Datascape? Roxas being somehow relevant for the strength of Sora's Heartless is also beyond my understanding. What does he have to do with that?

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    • Sora's heartless at base is a shadow

      He is pretty fodder, this is because Sora has small amount of darkness

      However in Coded, this heartless has absorbed both Bugs and many Heartless and has become much stronger

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Isn't Sora's Heartless that one time when he got turned into a Heartless after stabbing himself willingly with the Keyblade of heart in order to release Kairi's heart?

      Yes, when he stabbed himself with the Keyblade made of the princess hearts

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    • You haven't told me what I wanted to know. What does the Darkside from the Station of Awakening, the real Sora getting stronger and Roxas have to do with Sora's Heartless from the Datascape?

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    • The Real Sora from KHII has nothing to do with his heartless in the Datascape

      He is based on when Sora stabbed himself in KH1

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      You haven't told me what I wanted to know. What does the Darkside from the Station of Awakening, the real Sora getting stronger and Roxas have to do with Sora's Heartless from the Datascape?

      heartless are directly as strong as whoever they are made from specfically how strong their heart. It stands to reason as sora got stronger in the realm of light his heartless and data heartless also got stronger and like i said giant shadow heartless are one of the strongest variations of heartless already, couple that with the fact it is sora;s heartless, boosted with the power of the bugs, data sora should be tiered higher then he is just by defeating it. And like someone else pointed out, this heartless was so strong it was a direct threat to the realm of light. 

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    • Sora's Heartless in the Datascape shouldn't have become stronger with the real Sora since it is only based on the events from KH1. The journal that was analysed in Coded only depicts the Sora's first journey so anything that happened after that shouldn't be relevant to the version of Sora's Heartless in there.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Sora's Heartless in the Datascape shouldn't have become stronger with the real Sora since it is only based on the events from KH1. The journal that was analysed in Coded only depicts the Sora's first journey so anything that happened after that shouldn't be relevant to the version of Sora's Heartless in there.

      not at all the case if that were true jimmy's journal would not have had castle obvlion roxas and namenie in it. this shows the datascape/journal can evolve and expand and can be affected by the ROL. Not to mention if sora;s heartless was strong enough to directly affect the ROL there is no reason the ROL cannot affect the datascape

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    • Anyway this is just more proof of 3A stuff before KH3

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    • Wasn't Namine, Roxas and Castle Oblivion added to the Journal by the real Namine? Affecting the Realm of Light is simply something that Sora's Heartless was capable of doing from inside the journal and it did this on a deliberal basis. It would certainly be possible to affect the Datascape from the Realm of Light, and Mickey and the others that were with him at the time of Coded did exactly that. I don't believe that the Realm of Light is passively affecting the Datascape with nobody actually intending it though.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Wasn't Namine, Roxas and Castle Oblivion added to the Journal by the real Namine? Affecting the Realm of Light is simply something that Sora's Heartless was capable of doing from inside the journal and it did this on a deliberal basis. It would certainly be possible to affect the Datascape from the Realm of Light, and Mickey and the others that were with him at the time of Coded did exactly that. I don't believe that the Realm of Light is passively affecting the Datascape with nobody actually intending it though.

      Jimmy's journal supposedly has something to do with the book of prophices and said book does in fact directly affect the ROL and vice versa, otherwise Melefecent would have no interest in it or the book. now i doubt if one were to rip jimmy's journal in half there would be any consaqunces to the ROL, however its clerly is onw universe and even if nameinie simply added the memeories of roxas and castle oblvion it still shows it is able to expand like our own universe and the ROL. and lets suppose for a moment that the ROL doesint passivily affect the journal, KH2 sora>Data Sora>Roxas>Sora's Heartless. data sora is still stronger then roxas as he was in kh2 and still weaker then kh2 sora so he should still be 3A.

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    • I'm not arguing against Data-Sora's being 3-A or above. Jiminy's Journal having something to do with the Book of Prophecies is something that Maleficent believes and isn't actually confirmed. I do believe that she is likely right, though. Namine adding something to the journal doesn't mean that the Realm of Light has a passive effect on the Datascape. Her adding something to the journal is also the reason why it was infested with bugs in the first place which is something that Data-Namine explains to Mickey and Data-Sora at the end of the game. I'd also like to point out that Roxas also became stronger during the events 358/2 Days so I wouldn't be sure about Data-Sora being stronger than Roxas.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      I'm not arguing against Data-Sora's being 3-A or above. Jiminy's Journal having something to do with the Book of Prophecies is something that Maleficent believes and isn't actually confirmed. I do believe that she is likely right, though. Namine adding something to the journal doesn't mean that the Realm of Light has a passive effect on the Datascape. Her adding something to the journal is also the reason why it was infested with bugs in the first place which is something that Data-Namine explains to Mickey and Data-Sora at the end of the game. I'd also like to point out that Roxas also became stronger during the events 358/2 Days so I wouldn't be sure about Data-Sora being stronger than Roxas.

      Re:coded takes place after the events of KH2 which is after the event of 358/2 days, and Roxas was strong enough to nerly beat real sora. timeline wise you would be saying roxas got weaker not data sora getting stronger. data roxas was just as strong as he was in days and kh2 

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    • Oh, I thought Data-Sora being stronger than Roxas had something to do with him being Sora's Nobody holding half of the strength he used to have in KH1. Okay, Data-Roxas was most likely as strong as the real one then.

      The Realm of Light still doesn't have a passive effect on the Datascape though.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:
      Oh, I thought Data-Sora being stronger than Roxas had something to do with him being Sora's Nobody holding half of the strength he used to have in KH1. Okay, Data-Roxas was most likely as strong as the real one then.

      The Realm of Light still doesn't have a passive effect on the Datascape though.

      i guess ill give you this point until furthur is known about the book of prophices and how it affects the realm of light but at least we are agreed on data Sora being at least 3A 

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    • Yes.

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    • So we agree that Data Sora is at least 3A, along side his Heartless,Pete,Maleficent,Mickey and Data Riku?

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    • Yes, but I believe that this would put him at 2-C due to the appearance the Realm of Darkness made in KH1.

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    • True

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Yes, but I believe that this would put him at 2-C due to the appearance the Realm of Darkness made in KH1.

      Also in the Datascape there should also be the End of the World

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    • Are we going to ignore that it was thanks to Donald and Goofy helping? At worst they would just scale as 1/3rd of Xehanort's power,

      That's not how powerscaling works.

      Should've known this was going to turn into a dumpster fire of bad powerscaling attempts.

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    • Okay, what do you think then (Including the new Re:Coded and Re:Mind stuff)?

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    • It doesn't matter. I just couldn't overlook a glaring misconception on how powerscaling works. I'm fine with whatever everyone decides on, so long as it isn't based on misinformation or misrepresentation.

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    • What do you think of "worlds" being universe sized and the legitimatecy of the Re:Coded stuff?

      As we still need staff input.

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    • I was under the impression in things such as RPGs, the one enemy you fight is superior to your party individually, but inferior to their collective AP.

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote:
      I was under the impression in things such as RPGs, the one enemy you fight is superior to your party individually, but inferior to their collective AP.

      Not necessarily, that's not a rule at all.

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    • I agree with Sera. Xenohort is only 3-A because of one weapon based on what I hear from others, and it's more so hax and not his physical stats.

      Also, there isn't really a default rule, more or less that it depends on the context of the feat(s). Like for example Bartz Klauser isn't 2-A or Immeasurable because he nor his friends are actually on par with the Void.

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote: I was under the impression in things such as RPGs, the one enemy you fight is superior to your party individually, but inferior to their collective AP.

      It depends on the situation but generally yes, party AP>=final boss or major boss AP

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I agree with Sera. Xenohort is only 3-A because of one weapon based on what I hear from others, and it's more so hax and not his physical stats.

      Also, there isn't really a default rule, more or less that it depends on the context of the feat(s). Like for example Bartz Klauser isn't 2-A or Immeasurable because he nor his friends are actually on par with the Void.


      And the Coded stuff?

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote:
      Milly Rocking Bandit wrote:
      I was under the impression in things such as RPGs, the one enemy you fight is superior to your party individually, but inferior to their collective AP.
      Not necessarily, that's not a rule at all.
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    • I think that to avoid further discussion on whether or not Sora scales from Xehanort or not( i have conflicting feelings about that), we should just focus on the Re Coded stuff

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    • Bump. Agreed

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    • Otherwise this thread will last forever with that discussion

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    • Well, I'm agreeing with the Re:Coded stuff so is there someone who doesn't?

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    • Sera EX wrote: Are we going to ignore that it was thanks to Donald and Goofy helping? At worst they would just scale as 1/3rd of Xehanort's power,

      That's not how powerscaling works.

      Should've known this was going to turn into a dumpster fire of bad powerscaling attempts.

      Could you explain what the exact problems are regarding this? "dumpster fire of bad powerscaling attempts" doesn't tell me much about why the scaling wouldn't work in that case.

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    • It seems that no one is disagreeing

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I agree with Sera. Xenohort is only 3-A because of one weapon based on what I hear from others, and it's more so hax and not his physical stats.

      Also, there isn't really a default rule, more or less that it depends on the context of the feat(s). Like for example Bartz Klauser isn't 2-A or Immeasurable because he nor his friends are actually on par with the Void.

      What about the beam in the final clash between Xehanort and Sora? Quoting from one of SeraEx's comments further up above:

      "Furthermore, Xehanort used one 3-A attack during the final clash with Sora, in which he drew power directly from Kingdom Hearts and fired it at Sora, and he one-shot him with it. "

      That would be relevant regarding the 3-A scaling so you should also address that. Regarding Bartz Klauser, I barely know anything about him so you would have to explain his exact circumstances to me.

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote: It seems that no one is disagreeing

      In this case, all we need is further staff input.

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    • I disagree with basically everything.

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    • You do need to explain that.

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    • Yeah

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    • DarkDragonMedeus
      DarkDragonMedeus removed this reply because:
      Wrong thread
      03:03, February 9, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: I disagree with basically everything.

      If you don't explain why you disagree, there is no basis for further discussion. How is someone supposed to give a proper reply that addresses the issues you have with this if you only say that you disagree with no explanation whatsoever?

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    • So?

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    • Xehanort1307 wrote: So?

      What do you mean?

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    • I mean what now?

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    • If no one is disagreeing and giving actual arguments as to why, then we should probably just contact members of the staff.

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    • I see

      Well for now nobody is disagreeing and explaining why

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    • Who should we contact among the staff?

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    • I don't know

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    • lol disagreements with no arguments as to why classic 

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    • Check the verse page on the Supporters section, from there link to this thread to the users that have colors that aren't the same blue you and I have, those are staff members that can give proper input here.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Check the verse page on the Supporters section, from there link to this thread to the users that have colors that aren't the same blue you and I have, those are staff members that can give proper input here.

      honestly dont think any of us care enough tbe two staff who commented showed clear and knowing bais with such blanketed statements so think for my part im gonna drop this convo. thought it would be interesting guess not. 

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    • I have contacted the staff members on the supporters section.

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    • Zorback32 wrote:

      Bobsican wrote:
      Check the verse page on the Supporters section, from there link to this thread to the users that have colors that aren't the same blue you and I have, those are staff members that can give proper input here.

      honestly dont think any of us care enough tbe two staff who commented showed clear and knowing bais with such blanketed statements so think for my part im gonna drop this convo. thought it would be interesting guess not. 

      Provided they can be reasoned with, I wouldn't call them biased regardless of their actual opinions.

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    • I mean, the Re:Coded stuff looks legit at a glance personally.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: I mean, the Re:Coded stuff looks legit at a glance personally.

      What about the stuff from Re:Mind? If you haven't played that part yet, you can simply ignore that question.

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    • So what are the conclusions here?

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    • The Datascape from Re:Coded is the digital equivalent to the real world of Kingdom Hearts and Sora's Heartless was about to destroy it. Jiminy's Journal details Sora's first journay through the worlds of the Realm of Light which should be present in the Datascape which therefore contains an equivalent of the Realm of Light which is accepted as the size of a universe. This would make the feat Low 2-C.

      The Realm of Darkness also made an appearance in KH1 and would therefore be mentioned in Jiminy's Journal which would make destroying the Datascape equivalent to destroying the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness simultaniously and they are both the size of a universe. This makes the feat 2-C.

      This scales to everyone who fought Sora's Heartless and those who were able to keep up with them.

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    • Imo it should be at least Low 2C, likely 2C

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    • The stuff the OP mentioned is only 3-A. At most Low 2-C. In terms of Re:Coded.

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    • Dragonmasterxyz wrote: The stuff the OP mentioned is only 3-A. At most Low 2-C. In terms of Re:Coded.

      The OP says that it qualifies for at least 3-A but it also says that Sora's Heartless was about to destroy a universe which is according to the Tiering System Low 2-C. It would be 3-A if Sora's Heartless was only about to destroy everything inside the Datascape but it was instead about to destroy the Datascape itself and then go over to the real world.

      2-C is because of the Realm of Darkness appearing in KH1. The Realm of Darkness is the darkness equivalent to the Realm of Light and should therefore also be universe-sized. Supporting evidence for that is that the worlds which fell to darkness due to the Heartless ended up in the Realm of Darkness and came back from it when they were restored. This should have been recorded in Jiminy's journal which would give the Datascape an equivalent of the Realm of Darkness. Therefore the Datascape contains with the data equivalents of the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness two universes.

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    • Hm, once again, it seems okay at a glance, but my word isn't final.

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    • Okay, it is perfectly fine if you want to think it over.

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    • Dragon usually has a good sense of judgement.

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    • The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

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    • PabloLouisTheII wrote: The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

      Nobody thinks of the Datascape as a parallel universe.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      PabloLouisTheII wrote: The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

      Nobody thinks of the Datascape as a parallel universe.

      Yes they do or else they wouldn't say it's 3-A.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote:

      PabloLouisTheII wrote: The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

      Nobody thinks of the Datascape as a parallel universe.

      Oh yeah buddy if I put a Galaxy picture on the thread and delete it, does that make me Galaxy level???

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    • PabloLouisTheII wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote:

      PabloLouisTheII wrote: The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

      Nobody thinks of the Datascape as a parallel universe.

      Yes they do or else they wouldn't say it's 3-A.

      The Datascape is a computer simulation containing everything that is described in Jiminy's journal as a result the Realm of Light which is the size of a universe has an equivalent in there.

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    • PabloLouisTheII wrote:

      Nehz XZX wrote:

      PabloLouisTheII wrote: The Datascape is a computer simulation, not a parallel universe.

      Nobody thinks of the Datascape as a parallel universe.

      Oh yeah buddy if I put a Galaxy picture on the thread and delete it, does that make me Galaxy level???

      Sora's Heartless would have eventually deleted the Datascape and then would have become a danger to the real world. Your example is therefore not appropriate.

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    • Data in KH can recreate stuff like worlds and people, like in the Re:Mind with org XIII data members or in Re:Coded with all the worlds

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    • Well, if it is a simulation, feats within it do not necessarily carry over to the regular world in terms of scale. Just look at Sword Art Online for example. I agree that it may be unquantifiable.

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    • PabloLouisTheII wrote:

      This is a garbage false equivalence. Nobody is arguing 3-A or anything like that off of creating/deleting the Datascape. There were scans posted in the last thread where they showed the construct was a universe. It clearly is one as well as characters from the Real World like Donald, Goofy, Mickey, Pete, and Maleficent are comparable to data incarnations. Data versions are still equivalent to their real versions, as seen with examples like Twilight Town. With the logic you're operating by, Digimon characters shouldn't be more than 10-C.

      Even on the off chance you don't consider it legit for the Datascape to be a universe, Sora's Heartless would do the exact same thing to the Realm of Light. Your point ignored information for it to stand.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      It's not just a simulation, the effects of the Data World and its beings can interact and even destroy the Realm of Light like with Sora's Heartless.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, if it is a simulation, feats within it do not necessarily carry over to the regular world in terms of scale. Just look at Sword Art Online for example. I agree that it may be unquantifiable.

      King Mickey got transferred into the Datascape and helped defeat Sora's Heartless. Maleficent could content with Data-Sora who was able to fight his Heartless for an extended amount of time. The scaling to the regular world is pretty blatant.

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    • Data Sora even summoned a real Keyblade at a certain point

      Sora's Heartless was going to destroy the Datascape,then go to the Realm of Light, to destroy it

      The Datascape can interact with the RoL,Data Riku transferred Mickey and co. into the Datascape

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    • Okay. Never mind then.

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    • Okay, 2-C seems fine to me, but I still have to ask once more to be sure.

      To how many this exactly scales to at least?

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    • Well, through Maleficent whom the OP states hasn't gotten any more powerful since KH1 every character who is currently High 4-C would scale to that. This might however be controversial and some people might want to argue against that kind of scaling.

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    • Well, High 4-C is already a low-end as we all know the "At least" is there for a reason, so that's not an issue, at least to me, I guess.

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    • It might not be an issue to you but I could easily imagine it being an issue for someone else. If 2-C is alright, then we could go over to discussing the scaling if someone disagrees with every High 4-C scaling.

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    • The construct of the Datascape rivals the likes of the Realm of Light due to the structure of how Worlds operate as confirmed by Nomura that if certain worlds are part of a reality, so are the Realm of Light & Darkness. We see such worlds and the evidence of them being included is because they explicitly stated everything Sora and Riku experienced was a part of the data, including going to the Realm of Darkness and always being within the RoL up until the end game

      Sora's Heartless was stated to be a danger to Reality in the same way it was to the Datascape, and how is that a danger in the Datascape ? By completely deleting it. It isn't merely data, even noted by Riku to transcend the notion of being Data into a real entity just as Sora's Heart became Real as wlel, so the Datate xamples fall flat.

      It would scale to the High 4-Cs as the previous examples of tier 4 were consistently shown and supported in the series to be extremely casual feats in the game.

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    • Agreed

      Even Zeus constellation feat was extremely casual and he is pretty much fodder to the main cast

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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote: The construct of the Datascape rivals the likes of the Realm of Light due to the structure of how Worlds operate as confirmed by Nomura that if certain worlds are part of a reality, so are the Realm of Light & Darkness. We see such worlds and the evidence of them being included is because they explicitly stated everything Sora and Riku experienced was a part of the data, including going to the Realm of Darkness and always being within the RoL up until the end game

      Sora's Heartless was stated to be a danger to Reality in the same way it was to the Datascape, and how is that a danger in the Datascape ? By completely deleting it. It isn't merely data, even noted by Riku to transcend the notion of being Data into a real entity just as Sora's Heart became Real as wlel, so the Datate xamples fall flat.

      It would scale to the High 4-Cs as the previous examples of tier 4 were consistently shown and supported in the series to be extremely casual feats in the game.


      Ah yeah i forgot about that

      "Darkness is half of everything"

      "One cannot exist without the other"

      Meaning that the Datascape has 100% the RoD in it

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    • Okay, currently we are one opinion in regards to 2-C and every High 4-C scaling.

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    • I would appreciate some input from other staff members here.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I would appreciate some input from other staff members here.

      We are needing that anyways for this to be applied.

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    • Given that this upgrades almost every KH profile to a tier above 3-A even before the events of KH3 we probably don't need separate keys for KH3 anymore.

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    • Essentially: Counterarguments and Reasoning :

      • Seems to be but a simulation, saying in reference to something like Code:Lyoko
      • Doesn't acutely scale to the High 4-Cs due to Maleficent taking on Sora was merely Game Mechanics rather than Story

      There really isn't many reasoning for Counters other than first bullet.

      Pro Arguments and Reasoning.

      • KH:ReCoded has scans implying the size is a at least Universal Size
      • Data in Kingdom Hearts has shown to fabricate real things consistentlhy, including examples from 365/2 Days, KHUX, Re:Chain of Memories, and even KH3.
      • Due to Nomura's Structure of Worlds, Realm of Light & Realm of Darkness would be included into the Datascape, making the destruction it would cause in Real World & Datascape 2-C.
      • This detail is supported by Data-Riku being the Datascape which has those Realms and still being fodder to those who would scale to the changes, including Bugs who were a threat who were considered stronger than Shadows but fodder to Pete and Maleficent.
      • Maleficent and Pete were still able to take hits from Sora's Heartless and came out without a single scar, while versus KH1 Sora she was outright killed in Dragon Maleficent Form, so Scaling at least to Dragon Maleficent to Maleficent level isn't inaccurate.
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    • The 2nd Existential Seed wrote: Essentially: Counterarguments:

      • Seems to be but a simulation, saying in reference to something like Code:Lyoko
      • Doesn't acutely scale to the High 4-Cs

      Pro Arguments and Reasoning.

      • KH:ReCoded has scans implying the size is a at least Universal Size
      • Data in Kingdom Hearts has shown to fabricate real things consistentlhy, including examples from 365/2 Days, KHUX, Re:Chain of Memories, and even KH3
      • Due to

      There seems to be something missing.

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    • Essentially the arguments are:

      - The Datascape is a replica of the Realm of Light and of the worlds visited in KH1, so at least universe size

      - Sora's Heartless was going to destroy the datascape and then he would go to the Realm of Light

      - The Datescape can interact with the Realm of Light, Data Riku took Mickey and co. inside the Datascape

      - The Datascape also contains the Realm of Darkness since it was presents in KH1 and due to the fact the the RoL cannot exist without it

      - Data in the KH series has been shown to be capable of replicating things like the keyblade,the real org XIII,The X-Blade and Kingdom Hearts, and of course it replicated the RoL within the datascape

      Counterarguments:

      -The Datascape is a simulation

      -this doesn't apply to many characters

      If i may say this counterarguments are very inesistents and contradict the series

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    • The arguments above lead to the conclusion that every High 4-C should be upgraded to 2-C.

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    • I've contacted some of the staff members.

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    • Okay. Thanks for helping out.

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    • You're welcome.

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    • Bump.

      I'm going to leave thsi here, just in case: Universe Standards

      I hope all of the stuff that has been discussed meets the criteria enought.

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    • From a glance with the standards above, "worlds" being universe sized is pretty reasonable as it meets quite a good chunk of suportive things, but I'm not as sure with the Re:Coded stuff, until you remember that because of how the Datascape is, we all already agreed that it holds the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness (Replications of it, to be exact), meaning that it's supportive for the expected "Countless x2" for those that are currently in 3-A (Which would lead to 2-B and a ton of other stuff as discussed before)

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    • Shouldn't the size of the worlds be discussed in a separate thread? For now I'd like us to simply get the feat from Coded accepted.

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    • Nehz XZX wrote: Shouldn't the size of the worlds be discussed in a separate thread? For now I'd like us to simply get the feat from Coded accepted.

      I agree

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    • Bobsican wrote: From a glance with the standards above, "worlds" being universe sized is pretty reasonable as it meets quite a good chunk of suportive things, but I'm not as sure with the Re:Coded stuff, until you remember that because of how the Datascape is, we all already agreed that it holds the Realm of Light and the Realm of Darkness (Replications of it, to be exact), meaning that it's supportive for the expected "Countless x2" for those that are currently in 3-A (Which would lead to 2-B and a ton of other stuff as discussed before)


      I 100% agree with 2B cosmology in KH but it is a delicate argument that should be discussed in a separete thread

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    • Let's just stop mentioning 2-B period. It's going to incite and derail the discussion if we do.

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    • @PlozAlcachaz

      You've got a letter wrong.

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    • It has been two days since I contacted some of the members of the staff and none of them have responded so far. Should I contact more of them?

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    • I suppose that contacting other staff might be an idea.

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    • Okay.

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    • Done.

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    • Thanks.

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • Okay.

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    • Okay let's leave the "2-B" stuff at a side for now, we still have to get this main stuff concluded so the 2-B stuff is able to go smootly in scaling either way.

      So far, it seems 2-C Re:Coded stuff is fine so far, Dragonmasterxyz seems to agree, and there's Matt who never went in detail of why he disagrees, so for now the only option is more staff input.

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    • There is still no response from the staff members I have contacted.

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    • @Antvasima, what's to be done?

      At this point I'll have to contact staff memebers not knowledgeable on the series, if that's fine.

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    • All the arguments in favor of this are things Immersion and Subjective Reality can allow to happen. This 2-C upgrade isn't legit.

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    • Eficiente wrote:
      All the arguments in favor of this are things Immersion and Subjective Reality can allow to happen. This 2-C upgrade isn't legit.

      Immersion and SR would only be possible if Sora's Heartless couldn't potentially go to the real world Lucemon and Erazor Djinn style.

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    • You just made that up as a rule, it's still those powers.

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    • Sora's Heartless and the bugs were going to break out of the simulation, "Datascape" and go to the real universe.

      I would like to see your complaints in higher detail.

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    • You already said that, and you are aware that I know it because I said that the upgrade isn't legit.

      You claimed that "Immersion and SR would only be possible if Sora's Heartless couldn't potentially go to the real world". I said that you made that up, and since that's true I don't need to give any other detail here.

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    • I think Eficiente is being reasonable.

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    • Okay, I finally got some scans to back up the above:

      Data Riku journal explains stuff
      Dariku explains 2
      Rikku I&#039;m running out of names 3
      Data-Riku (Aka, the physical embodiment of Jimini's Journal) is clearly explaining here that the Heartless from the Datascape they reside in are being a thread as they can go to the real world if not dealt with.
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    • Uh no. Immersion nor Subjective Reality doesn't work here as the plot and the literal reason Sora's Heartless was considered a threat, as well as the Bugs, is because the same thing Sora's Heartless was doing to the Datascape, they were going to do to the Real World. It was directly implied when Sora's Heartless was about to delete the datascape. So while those powers do apply, it isn't the reason Sora's Heartless is tiered this way. It's because he was about to delete the Real World in the same way it was to delete the Datascape.

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    • Alright, I was asked to take a look at this don't ask me why, I know jack about Kingdom Hearts :P

      This overall seems fine, though there is one point I do feel I need to ask about. Not out of doubt, just out of curiosity. The word "data" is thrown around an insane amount here, like with the "datascape". Are these considered to be real worlds? Would a feat related to this data be valid, or would these things being made out of data pretty much nullify any magnitude for the feat itself? Given that a lot of this refers to data, how exactly is it tiered?

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    • Bump. Data in Kingdom Hearts has been shown to replicate the original completely [sans Hearts but they have a legit explanation for why Hearts can't be replicated] , shown with Twilight Town, Union X when data can create whole worldlines [timelines] . However, the feat doesn't come from just the destruction Data, but what the Data contains and what would Real Life represent in comparison as it's meant to mirror the Datascape. If the Datascape is assumed to contain the Realm of Light and Darkness, so would the Real World as defined in Re:Coded.

      The reason it's being debated as it was stated that the destruction of the Datascape, the Sora's Heartless would leave the Datascape and proceed to be capable of doing the same thing to the Real World, so if you translate the destruction it would include both Realms, being a 2-C feat.

      The abilities Efi are implying to encompass this ignores the whole context of the feat, as we are assuming they already have access to the real world through some hax, when they don't and has never once hinted to be some hax ability. They are going to destroy the Datascape to gain access to the Real World and proceed to do the same to it. Meaning, this is an AP feat, not a Hax one.

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    • Hm, I see. So with data, they create perfect replicas of real things? And are these realms and such made out of data considered to be real themselves?

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    • Worlds of data are comparable to the actual real worlds. This is a huge point with the Book of Prophecies and Maleficent seeking it to begin with, which is why the idea the "data is nothing more than a simulation" is an ignorant argument (repeating this because someone tried arguing it above).

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    • Well, I'll just take your word for it frankly. I don't know how that works personally, but I know KH is a complicated series, so I don't doubt it either. If this "data" can be considered comparable enough to reality that something like a realm would take as much to destroy as it would in the real world, then this probably works.

      Again, not knowledgeable on KH, just asked to help out here. Seems good to me. :P

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    • I think it should be 3-A, likely 2-C since it wasn't elorbated on if he would've done it in a single attack or hop bewteen the realms to do so. But yeah, data in KH is so real that a world created from the Book of Prophecies can bring people from the future who don't have a version of them there, which goes against the laws of time travel. 

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    • At a glance this all seems like 3-A to me. There doesn't seem to be anything pointing to these character being able to destroy/create multiple separate timespace continuums at once.

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    • There is the fact that worlds in KH have their own space time

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    • If they do provably have their own space-time, wouldn't 3-A feats be Low 2-C feats?

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    • Ok then, if the universe was going to be destroyed then it's 3-A. I'm yet to see anything that would make that Datascape real and, even if it were, it seems to be inside the universe with no real distance between them comparable to the one 2 universes in a multiverse would have.

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    • Worlds operate on their own time axis, but this thread isn't about destroying the worlds. Realm Inbetween, Realm of Darkness, Realm of Light, and Realm of Sleep are all separate universes with their own space-times, which is where the 2-C is coming from. I proposed 3-A, likely 2-C since it wasn't made clear if Sora's Heartless was going to destroy everything all at once, or hop between the realms, he was going to destroy the Datascape and then the real world by breaking the walls between them though.

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    • Destroying a single universe is Low 2-C. 3-A is for destroying everything inside a universe.

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    • Okay, apparently the standards for Low 2-C have changed and now you need an area of space that is proven to be superior to an infinite 3d space. In that case it would be 3-A.

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    • Both of the things you said are wrong.

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    • Could you explain? Just saying that I'm wrong doesn't tell me much.

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    • Ok, I will, but please consider to not make any further comments here to let more experienced users handle this thread.

      • Destroying a universe is 3-A, it's only Low 2-C if it's universe as in timeline/space-time continuum, which is never the case unless proven.
      • If you destroy "an area of space that is proven to be superior to an infinite 3d space" then that's just High 3-A because you are just destroying infinite space. Again to be Low 2-C one needs to destroy not just all of space but all of time as well.
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    • The first point I already realised when I looked up the Tiering System so you don't have to tell me that I was wrong about that. My first comment after the one where I wrote that destroying a universe is Low 2-C should have told you that much.

      The second point was based on this from the page of the Tiering System: "Characters who are capable of significantly affecting, creating and/or destroying an area of space that is qualitatively larger than an infinitely sized 3-dimensional expanse."

      Your request about considering to not make any further comments is something I refuse. I can't gain experience if I don't do anything. I'd also like to point out that many of the comments that are already in this thread are from me and that I was the one who contacted the staff members.

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    • Okay, i'll just say that I'm neutral for "At least 3-A, likely 2-C" on the cast that scales to this for the before-mentioned reasons above.

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    • Eficiente wrote:
      All the arguments in favor of this are things Immersion and Subjective Reality can allow to happen. This 2-C upgrade isn't legit.

      I agree.

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