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  • This is a myth which has perpetuated all across the versus debating community, from Spacebattles to Comicvine to Google+ to everywhere

    '' All of existence is part of its dream, and will be destroyed when it truly awakens. This existence includes beings such as Yog-Sothoth

    This is a complete mythology. A complete fabrication to what Lovecraft and the whole original circle.

    In April 27, 1937, Lovecraft’s assorted letter 4.617 gives this family tree. See that Azathoth "predates" Yog-Sothoth and his progenitor? Well, this letter is obviouly a joke first off because Lovecraft is literally part of the tree too, but furthermore he contradicts it with yet another quote.

    Has Yog-Sothoth a pedigree? No. He has always existed. Since he has no parents, I've never met 'em. He isn't housebroken, so I generally try to chain him outside. When he sends forth a pseudopodic tentacle (which can pass through the most solid walls) and begins to grope around inside the house, I usually call his attention to something going on in another galaxy——just to get his mind off local things. Yog doesn't always have long, ropy arms, since he assumes a variety of shapes——solid, liquid, and gaseous——at will. Possibly, though, he's fondest of the form which does have 'em. I've never encouraged him to scratch my back, since those whom Yog-Sothoth touches are never seen again...at least, in any recognizable shape.
    ~ Lovecraft himself

    This is obviously a joke too, but it proves a point that Lovecraft shouldn't be trusted in his letters and will always contradict himself because he had a weird sense of humor. This family tree is also why Shub Niggurath is claimed to be the strongest outer god, but that is a bunch of bull. The Outer Gods are beyond classical hierarchy and trying to use this family tree to claim Shub's status is ridiculous, especially given people then go on to claim that Nya is the weakest outer god out of nowhere.

    However, there is one major myth I must dispell. That Azathoth's awakening will destroy all of the cosmology for all of it is a dream. This is taken from an interpretation of Fungi from Yuggoth, but Fungi from Yuggoth is a poem with metaphor inherently riddled through it and the quote itself is vague for even Lovecraft standards. Does it mean Azathoth dreams of the reality he is subsiding in and is shamblingly asleep and babbling like a sedentary sultan, or is he literally dreaming up the whole reality? The first one is more in line with common descriptions of how he is. Furthermore, the notion that when he wakes up, reality is destroyed, is not from him, but a being written by Lord Dunsay called Mana-Yood-Sushai, the creator god of existence:

    Before there stood gods upon Olympus, or ever Allah was Allah, had wrought and rested MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI.
    ~ Gods of Pegana


    And yet it's not even the master of all in its own cosmology:

    In the mists before THE BEGINNING, Fate and Chance cast lots to decide whose the Game should be; and he that won strode through the mists to MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI and said: "Now make gods for Me, for I have won the cast and the Game is to be Mine." Who it was that won the cast, and whether it was Fate or whether Chance that went through the mists before THE BEGINNING to MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI—none knoweth
    ~ Gods of Pegana

    The notion of the world ending by Azathoth's awakening had nothing to do with Lovecraft's Azathoth, but Dunsay's Mana-Yood-Sushai:

    But, when at the last the arm of Skarl shall cease to beat his drum, silence shall startle Pegana like thunder in a cave, and MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI shall cease to rest. Then shall Skarl put his drum upon his back and walk forth into the void beyond the worlds, because it is THE END, and the work of Skarl is over. There may arise some other god whom Skarl may serve, or it may be that he shall perish; but to Skarl it shall matter not, for he shall have done the work of Skarl.
    ~ Gods of Pegana

    and later on:

    Whether the season be winter or whether it be summer, whether it be morning among the worlds or whether it be night, Skarl still beateth his drum, for the purposes of the gods are not yet fulfilled. Sometimes the arm of Skarl grows weary; but still he beateth his drum, that the gods may do the work of the gods, and the worlds go on, for if he cease for an instant then MANA-YOOD-SUSHAI will start awake, and there will be worlds nor gods no more.
    ~ Gods of Pegana

    And none of this stuff was claimed for Azathoth, but a different character all together. And we don't know why Azathoth was lulled to sleep, rather we do not know based on Lovecraft's works. According to August Derleth, Azathoth was defeated by the combinded forces of the Outer Gods and forced to sleep. The only connection that could be made is that in the Cthulhu RPG game, MANA YOOD SUSHAI is an avatar of Azathoth, but guess what? It's not canon! So... MANA YOOD SUSHAI =/= Azzy.

    In fact, if what I hear is true, the notion that Azathoth + wake up = bye bye reality is actually from Demonbane. So if you really want pedobane do dictate the powers of Azathoth, go on with it.

    So Lovecraft gives us no real discernable information on Azathoth as to explain his slumber, and using Derleth's fanciful addendums to the Mythos adds characterization contradictory to his position. As such,, there is no proof he is as ineffiably transcendant among his kin as compared to The Creator from Umineko or Gan from The Dark Tower.

    I might continue onto why Yog Sothoth is the true supreme being of the Cthulhu Mythos, and how it is supposed to represent the Neoplatonic Subsistence "The One," but here is the main thing.

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    • Also, didn't Lovecraft want to name his mythos "Yog-Sothery" or something like that? That shows pretty clearly he thinks Yog is the central figure of his mythos.

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    • I agree with this, people should stop parrotting that azzy is the supreme being of the verse and also being the "infinite gates" or "each gate lesser in qualitive difference" should be shut down as well

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    • So Azzy is just a god that had been lulled to sleep and we dont know why? Alrighty then guess I agree with this.

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    • I have been helping out with the Lovecraft revisions via Discord, and I have come to say that I agree with this.

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    • > greatest myth in VS debating

      > literally two characters

      Bruh

      Jokes aside, I agree with this.

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    • I agree too. Tbh it shows that the analysis for tier 1/0 really need to be better than just few scans, like we do for some verses.

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    • Yeah, I'm agreeing too.

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    • the greatest myth I'm aware of is that there are staff around this place, keeping things tidy. shared illusion, that. 

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    • What tier will Azathoth be, now?

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    • this is my opinion but azzy shouldnt even be close to tier 0 so i would say high 1-A

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    • Maxnumb231 wrote:

      azzy shouldnt even be close to tier 0
      i would say high 1-A

      Pick.

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    • > not being close to tier 0


      i already gave the answer so yeahhhh 

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    • It's from the same comment.

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    • I suppose that this seems to make sense. However, you should ask Azathoth (the bureaucrat) and all of the staff members listed in the Cthulhu Mythos page to comment here.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: the greatest myth I'm aware of is that there are staff around this place, keeping things tidy. shared illusion, that. 

      Well, lots of us, including you, are trying hard at least. The content moderator team are also doing a great job with cleanup work.

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    • Antvasima wrote: I suppose that this seems to make sense. However, you should ask Azathoth (the bureaucrat) and all of the staff members listed in the Cthulhu Mythos page to comment here.

      i mean, I think asking the real Azathoth himself would be more reliable, since he is omniscient

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    • That's the Joke

      That's the Joke

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    • yes and im having fun with it too

      EDIT: dammit im an idiot

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    • I was replying to Antvasima.

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    • Okay. Noted.

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    • There is one thing I want to check about all this, actually. It overall looks fine, but one detail just sticks out to me as a bit weird.

      So, with the family tree. Let's say we accept that it's nothing but a joke and that it shouldn't be reliable at all. Honestly, that seems fair enough, but it does open up one big question.

      Even if it was just another part of the joke, why would he put Azathoth at the top of the hierarchy with no other mention about it? Like, if it's a joke... then there's no punchline here. No reason to put Azathoth up the top unless it actually meant something, even if it had literally nothing to do with power or anything like that at all.

      Was there more text to go along with the letter? Like, some kind of description or summary of the "family tree"? That might shed some light on it. I'm not disagreeing with all this in it's current state; I just find that detail really odd. The family tree is not phrased like a joke at all.

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    • The joke part is really the bottom.

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    • I'm not sure how much of that matters since the Mythos are a collective work of the Lovecraft's circle who put Azathoth on the top of its cosmology. Unless you want to discuss Lovecraft!Azathoth as a separate instance compared to Mythos!Lovecrafts. Basically any franchise that draws from Lovecraft draws from the Mythos, not just Lovecraft's published works. That's why you will always see Azathoth being referenced as the top head in every other version of him (Demonbane, GURPS, Call of Cthulhu, etc.)



      Ionliosite wrote:
      Also, didn't Lovecraft want to name his mythos "Yog-Sothery" or something like that? That shows pretty clearly he thinks Yog is the central figure of his mythos.

      He is central because he has more stories and Carter is linked with it. Not because it's the top head of his cosmology. Just like it got called Ctuhulu Mythos not because the tentacle bearded alien is the strongest being, but because it's the most popular. 

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    • Except Lovecraft doesn't put Azathoth on top. All we have is it is the "Lord of All", that one statement a few times but always then carried over that Azathoth is a mindless and dumb creature too. The Family Tree is directly contradicted with another letter putting Yog Sothoth on top, and as for the punchline? Lovecraft was kinda insane his sense of humor is well known for being nonsensical, so there's that.

      For comparison we have Yog Sothoth comprising of all and transcending everything at once. Yog Sothoth has far more statements that shows it transcends everything from even the outer void. It's emphasized to hell and back in TtSGaK. Azathoth is just an aspect of Yog-Sothoth and given the constant titles and appellations Lovecraft gives to Yoggy, and knowing Lovecraft was into reading occult and philosophical texts, Yog-Sothoth bears various parallels to the notion of the true platonic god, literally being called "The Ultimate Archeytpe" and the "All in One, One in All"

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      The Family Tree is directly contradicted with another letter putting Yog Sothoth on top, and as for the punchline? 

      To play a bit of devil's advocate, why are we disregarding some letter statements due to Lovecraft's nonseriousness and inconsistency but using other letter statements as evidence of contradiction here?

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    • The problem isn't necessarily just with the letters themselves, but with how Lovecraft's family tree isn't really supported by anything in Lovecraft's writings and doesn't exactly many any sense when referring to entities who are explicitly devoid of causality or origin. Azathoth's descriptions often allude to him as being just a king or a figurehead sitting on an hexagonal throne in the center of the Ultimate Void, and Nyarlathotep even directly interacts with him at one point by punching him in the head. Nothing hints at him being on another level of existence altogether from the rest of the Outer Gods, and the evidence that he is dreaming them into being is likewise nonexistent.

      Meanwhile, Yog is moreso defined as an all-pervading presence that is fairly explicitly chief amongst the people of the Ultimate Void, and is even called "The Supreme Archetype" himself, which indicates his superiority over them in a pretty blatant way. The fact Carter was still as equidistant from Yog (his Archetype) as were all other things even when he found himself floating in the Ultimate Void (where Azathoth resides) is also fairly clear evidence that he is not on the same level as the other Archetypes.

      The letters are just being used as supporting evidence showing that Lovecraft's word can't exactly be taken seriously most of the time, especially with his weird sense of humour and tendency to contradict himself. Notice how he includes himself in the Family Tree he devised, which was even sent in a letter of his that was pretty much just mocking some guy who apparently thought himself to be the offspring of Zeus.

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    • Damn you, Ultima! I was typing up a response and you stole my thunder! >:T

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      Except Lovecraft doesn't put Azathoth on top. 

      But as I said that's irrelevant because the Mythos aren't just Lovecraft's works. 

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    • Blueicemonkey wrote:
      FanofRPGs wrote:
      Except Lovecraft doesn't put Azathoth on top. 
      But as I said that's irrelevant because the Mythos aren't just Lovecraft's works. 

      nothing u have said debunks anything that puts azathoth above yog, when the evidence is against your premise, and what ultima said is already specific enough for yog to be above azzy. Unless u have counter arguments to say azzy is superior and is the supreme being like how Yog has been portrayed then feel free to give us a passage texts

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    • Also, I might add that while we are expanding our horizons with the Cthulhu Mythos to include Lovecraft's close friends' contributions (sans August Derleth), I have yet to see evidence from their stuff (textual or otherwise) that supports the "Azzy > Yog" belief that everyone's been holding on to for years now.

      If anyone has stuff from the Lovecraft Circle that would truly put Azathoth at the top of the food chain, please speak up. Otherwise, Azathoth's reign is about to come to an end...

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    • Isn't Azatoth supposed to have been exiled/sealed Outside too?

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    • Blueicemonkey wrote:
      FanofRPGs wrote:
      Except Lovecraft doesn't put Azathoth on top. 
      But as I said that's irrelevant because the Mythos aren't just Lovecraft's works. 

      The only other part of the original circle who really wrote about Azathoth was Derleth, who as I noted had the Outer Gods defeat him.

      CAS dealt with Hyperborea with only Ubbo Sathla, which is vague and inconsistent and earthly in scope, mentioning Yoggy

      Long mentions them in Dark Awakening, will need to read it

      Bloch dealt more with Nyarlathotep then Azzy or Yoggy

      Howard dealt with Kull, Conan, and Hyperborea

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    • Well, given how widespread the belief that Azathoth > Yog-Sothoth is, we would need an official Cthulhu Mythos cosmology page to explain why we don't hold the same view anymore.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, given how widespread the belief that Azathoth > Yog-Sothoth is, we would need an official Cthulhu Mythos cosmology page to explain why we don't hold the same view anymore.

      That will be obvious

      Also the widespread belief is mostly in the versus debating realm. It's more split outside of it but who knows how much of that is influenced by the debating community. An official page with an explanation will be suitable. I will write a more formal version.

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    • Okay. Thank you for helping out.

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    • So I am rereading the thing on neoplatonism, and Yog-Sothoth fills out all things for "The One" except that Yoggy is "sentient," unlike The One which is mindless. However, everything else is almost identitcal, but that one thing is a blow. Azathoth definitely fits more of a demiurge role, from what I am reading it's even similar to the Gnostic version but IDK, need to read more.

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    • I have mixed thoughts on that.

      How would this even effect other Outer Gods?

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    • Can I bring up The Ultimate Gods' title "The Court of Azathoth?"

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    • Itzmrbonezone wrote:
      I have mixed thoughts on that.

      How would this even effect other Outer Gods?

      there will be no hierarchy for any outer god sans Yoggy/Azathoth; Yog Sothoth > Azathoth ?>? Shub ~ Nya ~ Ultimate Gods

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    • i like how this argument looks and it looks pretty good but something i would like just to state about Azathoth. Azathoth isnt actually sleeping at all, he is also isnt mindless or dumb at all. These descriptions are trying to comprhend what azzy is as all beings dont understand azzy or his motives, hence the title of blind idiot god and iirc the the 'blind' and 'idiot' part of this statment was just to refer to how azzy compeltely ignores the rest of creation with none within this creation able to understand what is azzy or his motives, the idiot in this sentence more refers to the original greek roots of the word which was "ignorant person” which would make sense with the context from above. all we see of yog and azzy and the rest of the outer gods in the mythos is a mere fractional view of what they actually are, a fractual view that iirc that is compleltely wrong but is the only thing the lower beings can percieve them by. so the thing with nyar hitting azzy in the face? never actually happened as they exist in such a level where there is no change and the such, just as everything else in the mythos. even then the thing nyar hit was most likely not Azathoth but a mere placeholder or avatar. otherwise everything here looks good.

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    • Itzmrbonezone wrote:
      I have mixed thoughts on that.

      How would this even effect other Outer Gods?

      Outer gods except for Azzy and Yog have no hierarchy. They are so powerful they see hierarchies as irrelevant either way. 

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    • Honestly I have always had doubts about relating Cthulhu mythos to vs debating in the first place. It’s all really vague and poetic.

      At the end of the day, Lovecraft was a strange dude who wrote some strange shit.

      He was the Lionel Suggs of the 1930s.

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    • Lovecraft was actually a skilled and highly innovative author though.

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    • So hes Suggs but if he was a very good writer and extremely racist

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    • Suggs is good a walls of descriptive language, and not much else.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      19:54, January 24, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Just giving my two cents here, I always thought that Azathoth would be the head, because of his description as the "Nuclear Chaos" and Lovecraft's relation with religion.

      He always thought that it was absurd, so it he made Azathoth as the opposite of the caring creator, the one that made all things with a purpose. Azathoth isn't an idiot literally, but he is the ultimate origin, chaos. Creation sprung forth randomly, without reason, and it may be destroyed the same way.

      If Yog-Sothoth was the supreme being, what would be the point then? An indifferent god, yes, but one that still grants those he deems worthy of knowledge, and answers the calls of sorcerers. Why give so much enphasis on Azathoth, the daemon-sultan at the center of infinity, the Lord of All Things beyond angled space, were everything is Chaos, without form or place?

      I don't have truly solid arguments for this honestly, besides Lovecraft's opinion of religion. Just thought I would share my thoughts.

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    • Salchipipe seems to make a good point.

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    • Azathoth is called "the lord of outer gods" and thats consistently been stated meanwhile as Fan and KingPin pointed out, yog is the one true platonic god and the supreme being.

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    • Salchipipe wrote:
      Just giving my two cents here, I always thought that Azathoth would be the head, because of his description as the "Nuclear Chaos" and Lovecraft's relation with religion.

      He always thought that it was absurd, so it he made Azathoth as the opposite of the caring creator, the one that made all things with a purpose. Azathoth isn't an idiot literally, but he is the ultimate origin, chaos. Creation sprung forth randomly, without reason, and it may be destroyed the same way.

      If Yog-Sothoth was the supreme being, what would be the point then? An indifferent god, yes, but one that still grants those he deems worthy of knowledge, and answers the calls of sorcerers. Why give so much enphasis on Azathoth, the daemon-sultan at the center of infinity, the Lord of All Things beyond angled space, were everything is Chaos, without form or place?

      I don't have truly solid arguments for this honestly, besides Lovecraft's opinion of religion. Just thought I would share my thoughts.

      Lovecraft actually gave much more influence on Yog Sothoth if you read through his stories. Azzy is always passingly stated to be the king of all. Yog Sothoth gets a whole section in one of Lovecraft's largest stories reiterating 1000 times how he is Transcendent to all concepts and forms of infinity. He is stated in much more abstract and wholly large terms, while Azathoth if anything is more condescending and more comparable to the demiurge

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    • @FanofRPGs

      I know that. What I thought in a way is, Azathoth is described in such ways, because there isn't another way to put it. This "thing", from were everything comes, is so far beyond all, that no worlds could fully describe it. So, Lovecraft said it was chaos. Nothing but chaos that randomly combines and suddenly a thing comes forth. The chaos before and beyond everything

      Of course, I'm mostly going with my own interpretations. I read TtSGaK, and I get why Yog-Sothoth could be argued to be the actual supreme being.

      But I don't know. It just doesn't make sense to me. Like I (kind of) said before, if memory serves, the creation legends from were the concept "chaos" comes, put it as the void before everything, before anything was.

      Why would give this entity such a title, and constantly say how it is the ruler of everything, how horrible and unfathomable he is, almost present him as a mockery of the typical creator, if in the end it's just going to be an aspect of a bigger thing?

      I think I'm getting too romantic.

      Well, it is just my interpretation. In any case, I'll respect wathever decition you guys take, but for me, Azathoth will always be the head.

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    • Well you can keep your opinion but factually according to many works of lovecraft Yog has more STATEMENTS regarding he's the supreme being than azathoth... The dream existence that azathoth has is being parrotted for years and needs to be stop 

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    • IMO Azathoth and Yog might just be the same being 

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    • Always thought it was odd Azathoth never made a personal appearance in the Last Void. Felt strange for him not get even a single mention. But there is one thing which actually supports the idea that Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth may be the same entity. In TtGotSK, the entity known as "Yog-Sothoth" isn't really referred to as such. He is always described as the being, the entity, the presence etc but never outright called Yog-Sothoth, and in fact it is stated that the being Carter was communicating with was that which some cults call "Yog-Sothoth". Perphaps they are the same entity, viewed differently by different observers

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    • That is possible. Azathoth comes from the word Azoth which is a material elemental field which can be seen very similar to what Yog Sothoth represents

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    • Ive heard it a few times that some believe that Yog is the mind while Azzy is the body or something like that.

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    • Azathoth's title of "Nuclear Chaos" is simply referencing the fact that he sits at the center of "ultimate chaos" on a throne. While I do think Azathoth can scale above the rest of the Outer Gods, I fail to see what puts him on the same level as Yog-Sothoth, much less on a higher one.

      See, here's the thing about Yog-Sothoth: he is not one of the Outer Gods. He is simply the BEING, the ENTITY, the PRESENCE. As Through the Gates of the Silver Key establishes, he is on a completely different level from the Outer Gods- they are just as distant from his BEING as lowly humans are. Meanwhile, Azathoth sleeps at the center of the Last Void as I said before, and he is lord among the Outer Gods... but he is an Outer God himself.

      As for the belief that Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth are one and the same... yeah, we've discarded that shit. It's quite obvious that there is a distinction between the two, even if there are no stories from the Lovecraft Circle that feature both of them at once. Again, Azathoth is an Outer God who reigns over the other Outer Gods- basically a figurehead. The BEING is something quite beyond the "Outer God" classification altogether.

      Can I also mention that Lovecraft didn't care about having a consistent cosmology? The entire point of the Outer Gods is that they are impersonal, archetypal deities whose true nature is unknowable. It's kind of a given that mere humans would only be able to perceive infinitesimal "cross-sections" (for lack of a better term) of beings that fundamentally transcend all systems of causality, and perceive the cosmos as a unified wholeness rather than in fragmentary, limited terms.

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    • And Fan, for Jove's sake, no one cares about Neoplatonism or "The One". It's literally irrelevant to how the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth are presented by Lovecraft himself. If you think there is a correlation, sure, whatever, but please stop talking about it like it matters to this site.

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    • KingPin0422 wrote:
      And Fan, for Jove's sake, no one cares about Neoplatonism or "The One". It's literally irrelevant to how the Outer Gods and Yog-Sothoth are presented by Lovecraft himself. If you think there is a correlation, sure, whatever, but please stop talking about it like it matters to this site.

      Think youre being a bit hostile here. Calm tf down. 

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    • Perhaps I am. Still, even if there is a correlation between Yog-Sothoth and The One, this piece of trivia does not belong on Yog's profile. I won't mind if it's mentioned on a Cthulhu Mythos respect blog, however.

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    • all that i have seen so far there hasnt been any arguments against yog>azzy and the only "arguments" against is going on semantics on how azathoth has been portrayed... however i havent seen any consistent passage texts when it comes to azzy>yog far more constant than Yog>azzy

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    • Maxnumb231 wrote:
      all that i have seen so far there hasnt been any arguments against yog>azzy and the only "arguments" against is going on semantics on how azathoth has been portrayed... however i havent seen any consistent passage texts when it comes to azzy>yog far more constant than Yog>azzy

      Link me these texts. I will give you a hint, Lovecraft, nor none of the circle (Aside for Derleth who has the collective outer gods > Azathoth), ever directly compares Azathoth to Yog Sothoth. Rarely are they even in the main story. So we go by appearances.

      -In the Dunwich Horror and The Whisperer in Darkness, it's emphasized Yog Sothoth represents the gate to dreams and is the key to it and thus is the dream world itself. Not just Carter's subjective dreamworld, but all of it.

      -In Through the Gates of the Silver Key, Yog Sothoth is described as a BEING transcendant to the outer void, all gods, men, archetypes, and forms

      In comparison, what we have for Azathoth:

      -A vague poem that he dreams of everything

      -That he is the lord of all

      -He is the center of infinity

      -Nyarlathotep isn't afraid to knock him while asleep

      -Constantly described as dumb, delerious, and delusional

      There is just a disparity in potrayal. Yog Sothoth is portrayed more loftily, more majestically, more divinely, and of a grander scale

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    • I can understand being in disbelief when something that has been circulating throughout the VS debating community for several years turns out to be wrong, but I kind of feel like certain people here (will not drop any names) are resorting to the "appeal to tradition" fallacy to keep Azathoth at the top.

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    • Can I ask where exactly the dumb, delirious and delusional thing comes from? I'm not doubting you on that point, but as someone who has at least some knowledge of the Mythos, I can't remember ever hearing anything like that.

      The most I remember for sure is that he's referred to as the "Blind Idiot God", and as far as I'm aware, this wasn't about his intelligence. "Idiot" was used as a term in a far more traditional sense, not regarding someone of low intelligence, but rather that he is someone who completely and intentionally separates themselves from the whole. And apart from that, I can't remember a single instance off the top of my head where Azathoth was considered unintelligent.

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    • The idea of any Outer God being unintelligent is flawed. These beings are so far beyond comprehension that it's impossible for lower beings to understand how they act or think. I agree with you on that part.

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    • Has somebody informed Azathoth the bureaucrat about this thread yet?

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    • I have done so.

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    • I am ridiculously tired (so excuse any errors), and only really commenting on the Yog stuff because I agree that too many false ideas about Azathoth come from outside material, so this reply will be brief, but I do believe this is a completely plausible interpretation. Partially because names in Lovecraft's work are a funny thing when applied to these higher beings.

      As is stated in Through the Gates of the Silver Key, the entity that Carter encounters isn't exactly Yog-Sothoth. It is what some earth cults have called Yog-Sothoth, but "Yog-Sothoth" is a fractional and incomplete view of a completely boundless entity, just as all other views of said entity are incomplete by their very nature. It is often referred to Yog-Sothoth, both by other writers and Lovecraft himself, for the sake of simplicity, but this is not truly accurate within the mythos itself. Saying something akin to "the entity known as Yog-Sothoth" or even just "THE ENTITY"/"PRESENCE"/etc. as used in the actual story would be more appropriate. 

      Because of this, one could say the Yog-Sothoth referenced in things such as the family tree is the "Yog-Sothoth" created from the limited viewing of this greater being, which does sort of tie into the cosmology. Is this the "correct"/intended reading? I can't really say, as Lovecraft left much up to interpretation. But I also don't think it's entirely correct to disregard letters, and assume Azathoth was placed at the top for no reason, at all.

      I've gone back and forth a bunch on this topic over the years, and where my position currently stands is, "Azathoth at the top when attempting to unify the works into a greater cosmology", but "The ENTITY/'Yog-Sothoth' at the top when looking solely at the quotes from Through the Gates of the Silver Key". I'm not sure I'd call putting either at the top to be entirely incorrect due to the extreme vagueness we have to work with.

      Maybe I'll argue for my viewpoint when I'm more awake, but this is definitely a topic worth discussing.

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    • @Azathoth

      Thank you for helping out. It is nice that you still visit the wiki sometimes.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      FanofRPGs wrote:
      The Family Tree is directly contradicted with another letter putting Yog Sothoth on top, and as for the punchline? 

      To play a bit of devil's advocate, why are we disregarding some letter statements due to Lovecraft's nonseriousness and inconsistency but using other letter statements as evidence of contradiction here?

      To demonstrate that if you take the letters as legitimate evidence it creates a contradiction.

      I think that's a fine thing to do. If someone says that something non-canon is proof of something, you can say that it's non-canon while also saying that the same non-canon material contradicts that claim.

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    • The God Of Procrastination wrote: Pick.

      High 1-A isn't even close to 0.

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    • @Azathoth

      You make sense, actually. Yeah, Yog-Sothoth is absolutely not the same thing as the ENTITY. He's just a slight and fractional viewing of IT, as all limited beings have their own conception of this BEING, none of which come close to describing what IT really is.

      The only issue is, how do we relate Azathoth to the BEING? We have been entertaining the idea of rendering "Azathoth" and "Yog-Sothoth" as one and the same- merging their profiles into a single page named "Supreme Archetype". In my opinion, the keys can be divided up as follows:

      'Umr at-Tawil | Yog-Sothoth | Azathoth | Supreme Archetype

      What do you think?

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    • interesting, perhaps maybe?

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    • Actually, I dunno. Azzy is more likely his own thing, not exactly related to Yog-Sothoth or the Supreme Archetype, except as a mere phase of the latter. It's kind of a mess, right now.

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    • Zeifyl wrote:

      The God Of Procrastination wrote: Pick.

      High 1-A isn't even close to 0.

      The upper bounds of high 1-A are only a single transcendence below baseline 0.

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    • Yeah, scratch that previous thing altogether. Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth really are not anything alike. The latter is the Outer God that humans associate with the Supreme Archetype, being their incomplete understanding of it. The former is simply lord among the Outer Gods. There is nothing suggesting that Azathoth has a similar nature to Yog-Sothoth that I can see. 

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    • KingPin0422 wrote:
      Yeah, scratch that previous thing altogether. Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth really are not anything alike. The latter is the Outer God that humans associate with the Supreme Archetype, being their incomplete understanding of it. The former is simply lord among the Outer Gods. There is nothing suggesting that Azathoth has a similar nature to Yog-Sothoth that I can see. 

      Well at the very least we know Azathoth is no normal Outer God, considering he's stated "Lord of All", and the other Outer Gods lul'd him to sleep in the hopes he doesn't wake the fuck up. 

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    • Azathoth is labeled to be lord of outer gods not "All"

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    • Maxnumb231 wrote: Azathoth is labeled to be lord of outer gods not "All"

      This is incorrect. The Haunter of the Dark gives him the title of “Lord of All Things”, and he is also referred to as “Lord of All” in Fungi from Yuggoth. As I said above, I don’t believe viewing these as 100% concrete is the only “correct” interpretation, but he is directly referred to as ruling over everything on more than one occasion.

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    • I still think the Yog-Sothoth (Cthulhu Mythos) profile should have three keys:

      The first key is 'Umr at-Tawil.

      The second key is Yog-Sothoth.

      The third key is the Supreme Archetype.

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    • What would the “Yog-Sothoth” key be based off of, though? The Yog-Sothoth who is mentioned in The Dunwich Horror? We’re almost always referring to the Supreme Archetype when we talk about Yog-Sothoth, anyway. We just give it a name for simplicity’s sake, just as the author did.

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    • I'm gonna have to look at the quotes again, but I suspect you are correct. The basis is that Yog-Sothoth is what humanity associates with the Supreme Archetype, and is a mere phase of it, just as with literally everything else. Yog-Sothoth can be invoked by humans to perform certain deeds, whilst the Supreme Archetype is unapproachable.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:
      What would the “Yog-Sothoth” key be based off of, though? The Yog-Sothoth who is mentioned in The Dunwich Horror? We’re almost always referring to the Supreme Archetype when we talk about Yog-Sothoth, anyway. We just give it a name for simplicity’s sake, just as the author did.

      Yog Sothtoth is the bulbous spherical version described in Horror at the Museum, likely also "Iok-Zothot" described in CAS' "Ubbo-Sathla" where he admitted the eponymous being predated. The Supreme Archetype would have no picture or just something super abstract and representative.

      I would assume Umr' is just tiered to the gate, Yoggy physically to the Outer Gods/Azathoth, the BEING would > it all however

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    • this is suddenly a lot more interesting with Azzy back

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    • I’d actually like to point out that “Azathoth views existence as part of its dream” is a misinterpretation and the original interpretation was that he just created existence subconsciously by playing his flute in his sleep.

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    • FanofRPGs
      FanofRPGs removed this reply because:
      wroong thread
      23:57, January 25, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Isn’t the exact quote about Yog in HitM “ only a congeries of iridescent globes, yet stupendous in its malign suggestiveness”? This sounds remarkably similar to what occurred when the Ancient Ones (who are the ENTITY’s manifestation) spoke to Carter, and the similar sensation that happened upon his talk with the Supreme Archetype itself.

      One of my main issues is that I’m not sure Yog is an actual being cut from the SA. Carter, upon meeting the SA, recognizes that it is the being known as Yog-Sothoth, but that the Yog-Sothoth earth cults whisper of is a fractional conception of something they don’t understand. I don’t know if we can actually say that makes it a distinct entity, especially since Carter actually meets a manifestation of the SA, but only recognizes the Archetype itself as “Yog-Sothoth”.

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    • Well, here's the thing: "Yog-Sothoth" is only a slight and fractional conception of the Supreme Archetype. Every single species in the dimensioned multiverse has their own idea of the BEING, but none of them are anything more than fragmentary misrepresentations of "the last, utter sweep" of all existence.

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    • KingPin0422 wrote: Well, here's the thing: "Yog-Sothoth" is only a slight and fractional conception of the Supreme Archetype. Every single species in the dimensioned multiverse has their own idea of the BEING, but none of them are anything more than fragmentary misrepresentations of "the last, utter sweep" of all existence.

      Okay? Even then, the feats done by "Yog-Sothoth" are done by the Supreme Archetype, so there's no real reason to separate them.

      It's not like Yog-Sothoth's feats would be lower than SA's, it's just that those species only recognize some of SA's feats as coming from Yog-Sothoth, and attribute the others elsewhere (or nowhere at all).

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    • Yes, I always got the impression that it wasn’t so much the case where Carter is cut from “bigger Carter or some shit” with Yog. The way it’s written makes it sound more like people on Earth just call the SA Yog-Sothoth, but what they believe Yog-Sothoth to be is smaller than what the SA actually is. The SA is Yog-Sothoth, but Carter does not call it Yog-Sothoth, as that suggests an incomplete view of the thing.

      I wouldn’t say “ur wrong lol” to someone who believes otherwise, but I’m not sure the story itself supports that idea.

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    • @Azathoth

      Thank you for helping out.

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    • So what is the final conclusion? Make a key between Umr, "Yog Sothoth" as in the orbs, and the Supreme Archetype? Or just two keys?

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    • as far as i can tell from reading this thread is that both sides of the argument have quite valid interpertations of how the mythos works and and where its characters stand in the higharchy due to how vague everything is that describes the stuff we are disscusing. although i am leaning towards azzy's interpretations. i think the question now is what interpretation the wiki should use in the profiles.

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    • wow we posted at exactly the same moment. anyway, i think we should keep it as it is but perhaps we could try something new where we show both interpretations on both of yog's and azzy's profiles as imo they are equally valid due to the vagness we have to deal with.

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    • FanofRPGs wrote:
      So what is the final conclusion? Make a key between Umr, "Yog Sothoth" as in the orbs, and the Supreme Archetype? Or just two keys?

      Giving Yog a Supreme archetype key and the UGs an Archetype key makes the most sense imo. 

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    • I think we should have three profiles:

      Umr'at Tawil who is whatever the tiers the gates are I need to read the stories again

      Yog-Sothoth as implied in the Dunwich Horror, Whisperer in Darkness, The Haunter of the Dark, and Ubbo Sathla, who is just standard outer god level, below Azathoth and Ubbo Sathla most likely

      The Supreme Archetype, who transcends and encompasses all

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    • i am fine with umr'at tawil bit but i do not agree with having yog and the supreme archetype being different profiles. when randolph carter met a manifestation of the supreme archtype he refered to it as how earth's cultists refer to it which is yog-sothoth as wrong and fractional as that view is from the cutlists' side, at the moment it was the only name randolph could give the supreme archtype even though he knew it was the supreme archetype.

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    • For Yog Sothoth, use the bulbous sphere image. Here is some quotes on it:

      For Ubbo-Sathla is the source and the end. Before the coming of Zhothaqquah or Yok-Zothoth or Kthulhut from the stars, Ubbo-Sathla dwelt in the steaming fens of the newmade Earth: a mass without head or members, spawning the grey, formless efts of the prime and the grisly prototypes of terrene life . . . And all earthly life, it is told, shall go back at last through the great circle of time to Ubbo-Sathla.
      ~ Ubbo-Sathla
      Imagination called up the shocking form of fabulous Yog-Sothoth—only a congeries of iridescent globes, yet stupendous in its malign suggestiveness.
      ~ The Horror at the Museum
      "Yog-Sothoth" knows the gate. "Yog-Sothoth" is the gate. "Yog-Sothoth" is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in "Yog-Sothoth." He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again.
      ~ The Dunwich Horror
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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote:

      I would say “ur wrong lol” 

      yikes

      anyways on a serious note i agree with azzy here

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    • @Azathoth

      What do you think that we should do here? A new cosmology explanation page seems appropriate in any case.

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    • I agree with this thread.

      I reckon Azathoth should be downgraded to 1-A or High 1-A.

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    • While Yog-Sothoth is associated with the Supreme Archetype and identified as humanity's fragmentary idea of IT, Yog-Sothoth was also treated as if he were his own thing, as Fan has pointed out.

      Remember, the Supreme Archetype has absolutely nothing resembling a form in any way. It makes no sense to say that it's omnipresent and invisible and whatnot if it really looks like a collection of spherical, rainbow-colored objects.

      Overall, I see no issue with separating Yog-Sothoth from the Supreme Archetype as separate keys on a profile. For that matter, we should consider making a distinction between the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes, too.

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    • KingPin0422 wrote:
      While Yog-Sothoth is associated with the Supreme Archetype and identified as humanity's fragmentary idea of IT, Yog-Sothoth was also treated as if he were his own thing, as Fan has pointed out.

      Remember, the Supreme Archetype has absolutely nothing resembling a form in any way. It makes no sense to say that it's omnipresent and invisible and whatnot if it really looks like a collection of spherical, rainbow-colored objects.

      Overall, I see no issue with separating Yog-Sothoth from the Supreme Archetype as separate keys on a profile. For that matter, we should consider making a distinction between the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes, too.

      Alright so basically...

      Umr At Tawil, and Yog are going to be Separate from Supreme Archetype.

      Nyarlathotep, Shub, etc. will remain the same, they will just be upgraded to High 1-A.

      Will the Ultimate Gods profile still exists, or will that be rewritten into the Archetypes?

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    • I'm pretty sure that the Ultimate Gods and the Archetypes will be separate keys of one profile, both High 1-A IIRC (with the latter being one level of transcendence higher than the former).

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    • Despite not having a lot of time, I figured I'd comment on this again because I think the whole discussion is interesting due to the varied interpretations that can be taken from the mythos.

      First of all, I'd like to talk about the quotes that people are saying suggest Yog is a different being entirely from the Supreme Archetype, and not just people looking at an incomplete view of it.

      The quote from Ubbo-Sathla mentions that "Yok-Zothoth" came "from the stars", which puts him more in line with a Great Old One (as described in stories such as Call of Cthulhu) than an Archetype/Other God. This feels directly contradictory to the description we're given in The Dunwich Horror, which pins him as being distinctly more abstract, even in comparison to the Old Ones described in said story.

      • "Yog-Sothoth knows the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the gate. Yog-Sothoth is the key and guardian of the gate. Past, present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth. He knows where the Old Ones broke through of old, and where They shall break through again. He knows where They have trod earth’s fields, and where They still tread them, and why no one can behold Them as They tread." - The Dunwich Horror

      Additionally, near the end of the same story, Armitage says the following:

      • "It has been split up into what it was originally made of, and can never exist again. It was an impossibility in a normal world. Only the least fraction was really matter in any sense we know. It was like its father—and most of it has gone back to him in some vague realm or dimension outside our material universe; some vague abyss out of which only the most accursed rites of human blasphemy could ever have called him for a moment on the hills." - The Dunwich Horror

      Everything we're told in this story about "Yog-Sothoth" is just a lesser, incomplete description of the Supreme Archetype. But the purpose is much the same. The "key and guardian of the gate" line seems like a pretty direct reference to the fact that the being's manifestation, the Ancient Ones, guard the Ultimate Gate, while the Supreme Archetype is allied with the entirety of existence on every level, just as the quote says "Past present, future, all are one in Yog-Sothoth." There is no other "Yog-Sothoth" that fulfills these purposes in Lovecraft's writing; the quotes from The Dunwich Horror just refer to the Supreme Archetype and its manifestations, but fail to grasp the full scale of the entity.

      • "The Affair that shambleth about in the night, the Evil that defieth the Elder Sign, the Herd that stand watch at the secret portal each tomb is known to have, and that thrive on that which groweth out of the tenants within—all these Blacknesses are lesser than HE Who guardeth the Gateway; HE Who will guide the rash one beyond all the worlds into the Abyss of unnamable Devourers. For HE is’UMR AT-TAWIL, the Most Ancient One, which the scribe rendereth as THE PROLONGED OF LIFE." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
      • "It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      As for the quote that refers to Yog-Sothoth as "only a congeries of iridescent globes", I would like to once more point out these quotes about the Ancient Ones, who are a manifestation of the Supreme Archetype.

      • "It was a large sphere or apparent sphere of some obscurely iridescent metal, and as the Guide put it forward a low, pervasive half-impression of sound began to rise and fall in intervals which seemed to be rhythmic even though they followed no rhythm of earth. There was a suggestion of chanting—or what human imagination might interpret as chanting. Presently the quasi-sphere began to grow luminous, and as it gleamed up into a cold, pulsating light of unassignable colour Carter saw that its flickerings conformed to the alien rhythm of the chant. Then all the mitred, sceptre-bearing Shapes on the pedestals commenced a slight, curious swaying in the same inexplicable rhythm, while nimbuses of unclassifiable light—resembling that of the quasi-sphere—played round their shrouded heads." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
      • "Despite his intimations of body, he had no audible breath; and the glow of ’Umr at-Tawil’s quasi-sphere had grown petrifiedly fixed and unpulsating. A potent nimbus, brighter than those which had played round the heads of the Shapes, blazed frozenly over the shrouded skull of the terrible Guide." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      Carter then compares speaking to the Supreme Archetype as a more intense version of this experience.

      • "And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      Finally, I'd like to remind people that Carter believes that the ENTITY is the thing he's heard whispered of as Yog-Sothoth, and that is has had many other names, just that the conceptions limited beings have of it are all fractional and incomplete. He does not suggest these conceptions are all separate entities. The Ancient Ones, who are an actual manifestation of the thing, are not included in the list, and are later confirmed to be extensions of itself by the Supreme Archetype.

      • "It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key
      • "MY manifestations on your planet’s extension, the Ancient Ones, have sent you as one who would lately have returned to small lands of dream which he had lost, yet who with greater freedom has risen to greater and nobler desires and curiosities." - Through the Gates of the Silver Key



      While I don't believe it is out of the question for someone to believe Yog-Sothoth is different from the Supreme Archetype due to the nature of the Mythos, I do not believe the text itself supports this. Two of the three quotes being used as evidence are just incomplete descriptions of the Ancient Ones and Supreme Archetype, while another does not even call the being "Yog-Sothoth", is vague, and contradicts even the fractional interpretation from The Dunwich Horror if taken at face value. We should likely treat Yog-Sothoth and the Supreme Archetype as the same, with the latter being the "more correct" title in-universe, while the former is the more widely known moniker.

      I have more to say on the topic as a whole, but this comment was already getting too long.

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    • Hi, so i'm not extremely knowledgable about Lovecraft (i know his work, i know the Outer Gods, Carter, Hypnos, etc) but if i may, i can confirm that the belief of Azathoth + awake = supreme game over isn't restricted to this wiki. Seriously, EVERY site speaking about Lovecraft, from this wiki, TV Tropes, Villains wiki, Wikipedia and even French websites (i'm french, that's why i'm mentionning it) outright speak about it (Azzy) this way. So no, this idea wasn't spreaded by people on this wiki, it existed before that. And before someone (like KingPin0422) come here to tell me that that's no proof (or tell me to not talk about something i don't have enough knowledge about or that i'm too used to the "tradition fallacy"or anything else), i know this isn't proof, i'm just saying this idea of Azzy being the supreme being in the Mythos doesn't come from here and is (in general) known as a statement by everyone taking interest in Lovecraft's work. 

      Aside from that, this discussion is very interesting and while this would be a drastic change on the wiki, i'm not against the idea of Azathoth not being the top individual anymore. 

      Note : Sorry if someone thinks i'm being rude in my comment. 

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    • I'm pretty sure that most of the wiki decicated to Chtulhu Mythos itself doesn't mention such a domination outside of the Extended Mythos (from what I saw), altough the sites not dedicated to the series itself does think the same thing of "Azatoth is the top".

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    • I checked the Mythos wiki and there are no clear mentions of Azathoth being at the top, only vague elements based on some novels and quotes. 

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    • I always thought that the descriptions of Azathoth made it obvious that it's supposed to be at the top. Sure, Yog-Sothoth is everything, but Azathoth is the dreamer of everything.

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    • I think the point is Supreme Archetype >>>>>>>>>> Azzy >>>>>>> Yog 

      Not

      Yog = Supreme Archetype >>> Azzy

      The OP does seem to imply the former but we later discussed and concluded that it's not the case, so the 2nd premise is the one being discussed

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    • But whenever people like me talk about Yog we mean the Supreme Archetype. The description of Yog-Sothoth in The Dunwich Horror is clearly reffering to the BEING or IT from Beyond The Games of the Silver Key. That's my point.

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    • Ya but that's literally not what the story entails as shown by azathoth's post

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    • Azathoth being the dreamer of everything really only comes from Fungi from Yuggoth. Which is a poem so it already is much more flowery than even all of Lovecraft's other works to keep in meter, but what "dreams of existence" means is so vague and mulit-interpretive it still is hard to use. We don't know what Lovecraft meant because the prosaic version of Fungi From Yuggoth, The Book, never got to that point because Lovecraft scrapped the story.

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    • Azathoth is pretty clearly inferior to the Supreme Archetype.

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    • "clearly"? i would say its more of an interpertation.

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    • Well, that's what the original work points to.

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    • the original is relativily quite vague, i would say both interpertations are valid.

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    • Under the new interpretation of the mythos with Yog as the supreme being, what is the alternative explanation for the Outer Gods playing music to keep Azathoth asleep? Why are they doing it if not to maintain existence? 

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    • They never did play music to him.

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    • Are you sure? It has been mentioned numerous times that they do. 

      "They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

      Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw"

      XXII. Azathoth

      "He must meet the Black Man, and go with them all to the throne of Azathoth at the centre of ultimate Chaos. That was what she said. He must sign in his own blood the book of Azathoth and take a new secret name now that his independent delvings had gone so far. What kept him from going with her and Brown Jenkin and the other to the throne of Chaos where the thin flutes pipe mindlessly was the fact that he had seen the name 'Azathoth' in the Necronomicon, and knew it stood for a primal evil too horrible for description."

      The Dreams in the Witch House

      "Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws."

      The Haunter of the Dark

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    • hKepekley23 wrote:
      Azathoth is pretty clearly inferior to the Supreme Archetype.

      The two are never mentioned in relation to each other at any point.

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    • Azathoth's feats don't stand up to the Supreme Archetype's description.

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    • Been horrendously busy, and realized I never posted my thoughts on anything beyond the Yog-Sothoth = Supreme Archetype thing.

      I will try to post my thoughts on the interaction between these higher entities and what should happen in regards to tiers, when I can.

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    • @Azathoth

      Thank you for helping out.

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    • Well, as I have seen, some say Azzy and Yog have never been heard together. The Lurker of the Threshold says otherwise:

      "(T)hose daring to oppose the Elder Gods who ruled from Betelgueze, the Great Old Ones who fought against the Elder Gods...were instructed by Azathoth, who is the blind idiot god, and by Yog-Sothoth ... (Y)e blind idiot, ye noxious Azathoth shal arise from ye middle of ye World where all is Chaos & Destruction where He hath bubbl'd and blasphem'd at Ye centre which is of All Things, which is to say Infinity...."

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    • That makes them sound like rivals.

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    • Isn't that EU?

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    • Lurker is by Derleth, based on fragmentary pieces of writing Lovecraft left behind, and was published 8 years after HPL died. Because it is more heavily steeped in Derleth’s version of the mythos, which is contradictory to pretty much everyone else’s (including Lovecraft’s source material), we don’t use it. At best we can say it is one of the incomplete perspectives put upon these entities by lesser beings, which Lovecraft himself stated to be a common thing amongst many races.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      10:26, February 16, 2020
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    • Antvasima
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
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    • So, what were the conclusions on Azathoth?

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
      10:25, February 16, 2020
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    • Please stop derailing with jokes.

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    • Antvasima
      Antvasima removed this reply because:
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    • Help to get this revision finished would be very appreciated.

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    • What can I do?

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    • I do not know. We preferably need help from FanofRPGs and Azathoth, but they do not seem to have the time available right now.

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    • I agree with the revision

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    • @Ant

      Removing the objectively false information isn't too difficult. However, if the revisions include the Azathoth vs Yog-Sothoth stuff, then I guess I'll finally weigh in on that, now that I have a little bit of time. I'll try to keep this relatively short. I apologize if it is rather structureless.

      As I said before, a lot in the Mythos is left up to interpretation, and I would not fault anyone for personally viewing Yog as the supreme being (I sometimes like to when taking TtGotSK in a vacuum), but I believe there is some stuff that must be set straight when it comes to making a unifying hierarchy for the Mythos and why most people put Azathoth at the top. It's not like it just started from complete misinformation and was perpetuated only by hearsay. 

      I have seen some people say that Yog seems more impressive, which I can sort of agree with, but the problem here is that it is based on two vastly different things. Of course the description of Yog (and by extension, the Archetypes) is more "impressive"; it is a major plot point of an entire short story in which Lovecraft spends numerous paragraphs describing the structure of existence and the flawed nature of perspective. Azathoth, by comparison, only appears "in person" within a 14-line poem, as the book he (likely) would have appeared in was scrapped, and possibly recyled into The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath. Obviously Yog-Sothoth's description would be far meatier. This does not nullify the fact that something we are told less about can be deemed superior to something we have greater information on if we are simply told it is so.

      It is also worth noting that, even within the confines of that short poem, Azathoth is portrayed as something remarkably important; the source of the fundamental laws of each cosmos. It is not like he is totally featless without WoG, or lacks any sort of grand cosmic importance. 

      "Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered

      Things he had dreamed but could not understand,

      While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered

      In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

      They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

      Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,

      Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining

      Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law." - Fungi from Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth

      Speaking of which, multiple times in-universe, he is referred to as some kind of boundless entity who rules over everything. While we know human knowledge of these beings is incomplete, it may not be entirely wrong. Such knowledge comes from the same source that states Yog-Sothoth to be one with all time and space. Though fractional, the Necronomicon suggests Azathoth to be > Yog-Sothoth, so Lovecraft's choice of Azathoth as the source of all in his "family tree" didn't come from nowhere.

      • "There were, in such voyages, incalculable local dangers; as well as that shocking final peril which gibbers unmentionably outside the ordered universe, where no dreams reach; that last amorphous blight of nethermost confusion which blasphemes and bubbles at the centre of all infinity—the boundless daemon-sultan Azathoth, whose name no lips dare speak aloud, and who gnaws hungrily in inconceivable, unlighted chambers beyond time amidst the muffled, maddening beating of vile drums and the thin, monotonous whine of accursed flutes; to which detestable pounding and piping dance slowly, awkwardly, and absurdly the gigantic ultimate gods, the blind, voiceless, tenebrous, mindless Other Gods whose soul and messenger is the crawling chaos Nyarlathotep." - The Dream-Quest of Unknown Kadath
      • "There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos. Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos." - The Dreams in the Witch House
      • "Gilman wondered, too, whether he could trust his instinct to take him back to the right part of space. How could he be sure he would not land on that green-litten hillside of a far planet, on the tessellated terrace above the city of tentacled monsters somewhere beyond the galaxy, or in the spiral black vortices of that ultimate void of Chaos wherein reigns the mindless daemon-sultan Azathoth?" - The Dreams in the Witch House
      • "Before his eyes a kaleidoscopic range of phantasmal images played, all of them dissolving at intervals into the picture of a vast, unplumbed abyss of night wherein whirled suns and worlds of an even profounder blackness. He thought of the ancient legends of Ultimate Chaos, at whose centre sprawls the blind idiot god Azathoth, Lord of All Things, encircled by his flopping horde of mindless and amorphous dancers, and lulled by the thin monotonous piping of a daemoniac flute held in nameless paws." - The Haunter of the Dark

      Now, I think it's important to mention that some people wish to ignore the Family Tree. While fine for personal reasons, I don't think this works very well when trying to make a unified Mythos. For starters, it is the only time in canon Yog and Azzy are mentioned together. It is the only direct comparison we have between the two, with a slightly less than direct comparison in the Necronomicon. People have mentioned that it is a joke. Yes, the joke is that Lovecraft's Welsh ancestor is a descendant of eldritch monstrosities, as is the ancestor of HPL's friend, Clark Ashton Smith. The joke is at the very bottom. There is nothing to support "Azathoth being at the top" as part of the joke, as it is a sentiment that actually goes along with the little we know about it. One could not argue that Lovecraft had not yet finalized his idea of Yog-Sothoth either, as both dates I could find for the family tree letter come from after Through the Gates of the Silver Key was written. 

      The OP attempts to use another joke letter about Yog-Sothoth to cast doubt upon the family tree letter, but I think in doing this, missed much of what made the Yog-Sothoth letter a joke. It is an amusing story in which an outer god is compared to a dog, which can be seen through the comparions made within the letter. Hence part of the reason specifically to use the term "pedigree" when responding to a question on Yog's family. After all, a dog can't really be purebred if it was not bred. Despite this, the joke letter actually contradicts Yog itself more than it contradicts its relation to Azathoth.

      • "Has Yog-Sothoth a pedigree? No. He has always existed."

      Correct. This is true of every archetype/other god. Because time and perspective are lies of limited beings. "Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously."

      • "Since he has no parents, I've never met 'em."

      Correct. He does not have parents. Even if Azathoth > Yog-Sothoth on the family tree, Yog does not have "parents". 

      • "He isn't housebroken, so I generally try to chain him outside. When he sends forth a pseudopodic tentacle (which can pass through the most solid walls) and begins to grope around inside the house, I usually call his attention to something going on in another galaxy——just to get his mind off local things. Yog doesn't always have long, ropy arms, since he assumes a variety of shapes——solid, liquid, and gaseous——at will. Possibly, though, he's fondest of the form which does have 'em. I've never encouraged him to scratch my back, since those whom Yog-Sothoth touches are never seen again...at least, in any recognizable shape."

      The rest of this paragraph contradicts absolutely everything about the actual nature of Yog-Sothoth that we know about from the Mythos, making it clear just how much more of a joke this letter is than, say, the family tree. Even if we assume that only the first few sentences are legitimate and the rest are jokes, said sentences can be directly validated in universe without changing Yog's position in relation to Azathoth. I also think it's kind of weird to say that because this letter is jokey and contradictory, and that some letters are jokier and more contradictory than others, we can't trust Lovecraft in his letters period. It's not that hard to distinguish which part of something is meant to be a clear joke or have no merit, and not every letter Lovecraft ever wrote was as comical as the Yog-Sothoth one.

      Despite going on and on about this, I believe that in general, varying views of the Mythos are good. The problem is that we are trying to give these entities a clearly defined tier and position, so we must use what we know. In regards to the relationship between Yog-Sothoth and Azathoth, we know:

      1. They never appear together/have any interaction in any of the Mythos stories we consider canon.

      2. We are given exponentially more information about Yog-Sothoth.

      3. Despite this, Azathoth is repeatedly suggested to be higher by the (albeit fractional) Necronomicon.

      4. The single piece of information about their relationship we have from the author himself places Azathoth higher. 

      With this considered, I believe it is generally safer to consider Azathoth the top being of the Mythos, with Yog an extremely close second. If one wants to create a version of the Mythos with Yog at the top using only what we consider canon, it would genuinely be easier and safer to remove Azathoth entirely than place him somewhere arbitrarily below Yog, despite the limited information we have on him giving him higher standing. I would, of course, prefer the former.

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    • This next comment was originally going to be part of the original, but I feel it's better off as its own distinct thing. 

      While my previous comment focused on what we could know and what was heavily implied, I'd like to also throw together a quick comment on why one could use intent and themes to argue for Azathoth's position, as well. Of course, that is not quite as close to what this site is focused on, and I do not expect this comment to be taken nearly as seriously by those who do not care about potential narrative undertones, but I thought it would be interesting, nonetheless. 

      As many may know, the term "Cthulhu Mythos" didn't come about until after HPL died. Lovecraft himself often humorously referred to his tales as "Yog-Sothothery", and sometimes simply "Yog-Sothoth". All things considered, this is quite fitting for Yog-Sothoth's position as something allied with the unbound sweep of existence. 

      In a letter to Frank Belknap Long, Lovecraft admitted that "Yog-Sothoth" was not serious literature, while simultaneously defending its creation in comparison to reliance on existing mythology.

      • "I really agree that Yog-Sothoth is a basically immature conception, & unfitted for really serious literature. The fact is, I have never approached serious literature yet. But I consider the use of actual folk-myths as even more childish than the use of new artificial myths, since in the former one is forced to retain many blatant peurilities & contradictions of experienced which could be subtilised or smoothed over if the supernaturalism were modelled to order for the given case."

      He immediately followed it with what he believed the purpose of Yog-Sothothery to be.

      • "The only permanently artistic use of Yog-Sothothery, I think, is in symbolic or associative phantasy of the frankly poetic type; in which fixed dream-patterns of the natural organism are given an embodiment & crystallisation... But there is another phase of cosmic phantasy (which may or may not include frank Yog-Sothothery) whose foundations appear to me as better grounded than those of ordinary oneiroscopy; personal limitations regarding the sense of outsideness. I refer to the aesthetic crystallisation of that burning & inextinguishable feeling of mixed wonder & oppression which the sensitive imagination experiences upon scaling itself & its restrictions against the vast & provocative abyss of the unknown. This has always been the chief emotion in my psychology; & whilst it obviously figures less in the psychology of the majority, it is clearly a well-defined & permanent factor from which very few sensitive persons are wholly free.... Reason as we may, we cannot destroy a normal perception of the highly limited & fragmentary nature of our visible world of perception & experience as scaled against the outside abyss of unthinkable galaxies & unplumbed dimensions—an abyss wherein our solar system is the merest dot..."

      Dream-patterns given form. Our limited perception against an unthinkable abyss we do not understand. Those are Lovecraft's tales. That's Yog-Sothoth(ery).

      How fitting then for Azathoth, the being placed at the top of Lovecraft's loose hierarchy, to be the dreamer.

      "Out in the mindless void the daemon bore me,

      Past the bright clusters of dimensioned space,

      Till neither time nor matter stretched before me,

      But only Chaos, without form or place.

      Here the vast Lord of All in darkness muttered

      Things he had dreamed but could not understand,

      While near him shapeless bat-things flopped and fluttered

      In idiot vortices that ray-streams fanned.

      They danced insanely to the high, thin whining

      Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw,

      Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining

      Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.

      “I am His Messenger,” the daemon said,

      As in contempt he struck his Master’s head." - Fungi from Yuggoth, XXII. Azathoth

      Yog-Sothoth is Lovecraft's stories; the boundless expanse of dreams and unplumbed experience reaching beyond that which we can hold within the confines of our fragile worldview. 

      Of course, then, Azathoth's meaning is expanded upon. He is not just Lovecraft's view of an uncaring creator of a cosmos we could never hope to grasp, but a creator who is, in some small but noteworthy way, like us. Us "very few sensitive persons who are wholly free". A dreamer of things vast and majestic, which he either cannot fully understand, or simply cares not to. The ultimate dreamer in a world governed by such fanciful things.

      This is far from the only interpretation, but I figured I'd share it to show that even from a philosophical perspective, Azathoth is not randomly just slapped at the top. Also, it was kind of fun.

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    • Ok, i'm not really as knowledegable about the Mythos and Lovecraft's work as most people here...but i can say this is good. VERY good. And the last part is a very good interpretation of Azzy's role i think. Granted i have not such an extensive knowledge but still.  

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    • I think that Azathoth (the bureaucrat) makes perfect sense here, and that we should keep Azathoth (the entity) above Yog-Sothoth.

      I would greatly appreciate if he could write an official Cthulhu Mythos Explanation Page for us, regarding the reasons for its tiering here, preferably in collaboration with FanofRPGs.

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    • I'm more inclined to believe that Azathoth (the entity) is correct here, and that Azathoth (the bureaucrat) should be above Yog-Sothoth.

      Jokes aside, I would like to hear Fan's response, but I am leaning towards agreeing with Azzy here. The second comment is... eh, like, at least some mild supporting stuff. But I agree with his points overall, and it should be noted that trying to tier these characters properly is almost an absurd task (considering things like their depictions intentionally being beyond human comprehension + no direct comparisons). Azzy's point on this is probably about as close as we can get.

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    • Yes. Agreed.

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    • By the way, the joke with the family tree is that his ancestry was a mistake.

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    • DarkGrath Lovecraf's work being that nebulous and not exactly based on logic or tiering (even if there is a logic there) is consistent with what we know about the author's view of life and men so yeah. 

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    • No offense, but I still think putting Azathoth above Yog-Sothoth requires mostly unbacked speculation as opposed to solid feats or descriptions.

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    • Having Azathoth as the supreme god seems like the type of thing Lovecraft would do, making the god of everything a complete idiot that sleeps

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    • I agree with Azathoth and Dark.

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    • Though fractional, the Necronomicon suggests Azathoth to be > Yog-Sothoth, so Lovecraft's choice of Azathoth as the source of all in his "family tree" didn't come from nowhere.

      How do those quotes even suggest that Azathoth is > Supreme Archetype? Also, those quotes aren't even from the Necronomicon.

      I don't really follow the point you were trying to make with them, and without this crucial information, only having the family tree to back up Azzy > SA isn't enough for me.

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    • @Agnaa

      “Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos.”

      Then you have the “ancient legends” of The Haunter of the Dark, which come from the protagonist reading the Necronomicon and other such dark tomes.

      The reason most people know about Azathoth, just like Yog-Sothoth, is because of the Necronomicon. The exact same Necronomicon which refers to Yog-Sothoth as containing past, present, and future refers to Azathoth as the being who “rules all time and space” and as “Lord of All Things”.

      Again, the Necronomicon is fractional, but suggests Azathoth to be at the top, which Lovecraft did, as well.

      The issue with putting Yog-Sothoth somewhere above him is that it is not backed by any actual statements in-universe (Azathoth is never mentioned in TtGotSK) nor author statements (the single comparative thing we have between them from Lovecraft places Azathoth higher).

      If this is more an issue about “none of these quotes mention the Supreme Archetype”, I will again mention that the Supreme Archetype is Yog-Sothoth; every name used to refer to the same creature in TtGotSK is written in all caps. “YOG-SOTHOTH”, “BEING”, “ENTITY”, “PRESENCE”, “SUPREME ARCHETYPE”, etc.

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    • This is false.

      > If this is more an issue about “none of these quotes mention the Supreme Archetype”, I will again mention that the Supreme Archetype is Yog-Sothoth; every name used to refer to the same creature in TtGotSK is written in all caps. “YOG-SOTHOTH”, “BEING”, “ENTITY”, “PRESENCE”, “SUPREME ARCHETYPE”, etc.

      • The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

      The text makes it explicitly clear that Yog-Sothoth, aka the BEING/Carter's archetype, is itself naught but a facet of the Supreme Archetype.

      This is not meant as an offense, but it really seems as if your entire argument is almost entirely centered around your personal interpretation of the extremely vague lines we do have for Azathoth, and then attempting to apply those quotes/finding a common ground with Lovecraft's wider cosmology and authorial intent, and not solid evidence.

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    • Doesn't this quote show that BEING is a derivation of SUPREME ARCHETYPE?

      The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT.

      I'm pretty sure there's other quotes that back up this separation.

      More than anything, this would more suggest SUPREME ARCHETYPE > Azathoth > Yog.

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    • Kep, Carter’s Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. That is why its name is in all caps. The BEING and SUPREME ARCHETYPE are the same thing. It literally says Carter himself has his glutless zeal because he is derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. The BEING is not Carter’s beyond the Gate fragment. The BEING is the thing informing Carter’s beyond the Gate fragment.

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    • Salchipipe
      Salchipipe removed this reply because:
      Until I read it, no comments. May not comment if Azathoth stays in top. In that case, will only comment if "Hydra" has groundbreaking info.
      00:12, February 18, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • @Agnaa

      I think you are misreading that paragraph without the context of the greater story.

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    • Agnaa
      Agnaa removed this reply because:
      After rereading I no longer believe this
      22:34, February 17, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote: @Agnaa

      I think you are misreading that paragraph without the context of the greater story.

      Upon rereading, I think I am, yeah.

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    • @Agnaa

      You are mixing up Carter and Carter’s Archetype.

      The Carter who still thinks of himself as Carter beyond the Gate is referred to as stuff such as “Carter’s beyond the Gate fragment”. He is still, in some way, Carter. Carter’s Archetype is YOG-SOTHOTH/BEING/SUPREME ARCHETYPE. It is why it is referred to the same way, and why the story mentions that Carter is derived from it.

      Edit: I’m too slow.

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    • Is there an explicit distinction made between the SUPREME ARCHETYPE and Yog-Sothoth? I was under the impression that "Yog-Sothoth" was just one of the names given to it. SUPEREME ARCHETYPE is simply another.

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    • EmperorRorepme wrote: Is there an explicit distinction made between the SUPREME ARCHETYPE and Yog-Sothoth? I was under the impression that "Yog-Sothoth" was just one of the names given to it. SUPEREME ARCHETYPE is simply another.

      They are the same thing, but the Necronomicon description of Yog-Sothoth is incomplete due to its nature. YOG-SOTHOTH (all caps) is just one of the many titles TtGotSK uses to refer to something without a name.

      The Mythos does this, a lot. The entity known as Azathoth is not actually called Azathoth. The name Nyarlathotep is just the name of the true “Nyarlathotep’s” avatar. Nothing at that scale actually has a name. They’re all just so we can hopelessly try to define them.

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    • > Kep, Carter’s Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. That is why its name is in all caps

      Seems as if it's not. The text calls Carter's archetype, the BEING, the chief among "normal" archetypes, and then describes that as derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: > Kep, Carter’s Archetype is the Supreme Archetype. That is why its name is in all caps

      Seems as if it's quite clearly not. The text calls Carter's archetype, the BEING, the chief among "normal" archetypes, and then describes that as derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE.

      No, that is blatantly untrue. The text calls Carter’s Archetype many things. YOG-SOTHOTH. ENTITY. BEING. PRESENCE. Every single one is in all caps to denote that it is the same thing being referred to under many names. Immediately after telling us that the BEING is Carter’s Archetype, we are told Carter is derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. The BEING is the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. The only way this paragraph would suggest they aren’t the same thing is if the rest of the story didn’t exist.

      It even says Carter is the one derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE, not the BEING.

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    • Just gonna dump some quotes to show that I'm not talking out of my ass. Everything is from Through the Gates of the Silver Key, obviously. 

      First, some mention of how Carter's beyond the Gate fragment and the entity he's speaking to are separate things. While the being his fragment is speaking to is "part of himself", it is a different entity that is also "coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space".

      • "Then, in the midst of these devastating reflections, Carter’s beyond-the-gate fragment was hurled from what had seemed the nadir of horror to black, clutching pits of a horror still more profound. This time it was largely external—a force or personality which at once confronted and surrounded and pervaded him, and which in addition to its local presence, seemed also to be a part of himself, and likewise to be coexistent with all time and coterminous with all space. There was no visual image, yet the sense of entity and the awful concept of combined localism, identity, and infinity lent a paralysing terror beyond anything which any Carter-fragment had hitherto deemed capable of existing."

      Immediately after, we get Carter's continued description of the entity, in which he refers to it by the name he knows; YOG-SOTHOTH. Note the caps.

      • "In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. It was perhaps that which certain secret cults of earth have whispered of as YOG-SOTHOTH, and which has been a deity under other names; that which the crustaceans of Yuggoth worship as the Beyond-One, and which the vaporous brains of the spiral nebulae know by an untranslatable Sign—yet in a flash the Carter-facet realised how slight and fractional all these conceptions are."

      Carter, realizing how fractional the idea of such a thing is in comparison to its full scale, refers to it by another title. Caps are kept to denote that it is the same thing.

      • "And now the BEING was addressing the Carter-facet in prodigious waves that smote and burned and thundered—a concentration of energy that blasted its recipient with well-nigh unendurable violence, and that followed, with certain definite variations, the singular unearthly rhythm which had marked the chanting and swaying of the Ancient Ones, and the flickering of the monstrous lights, in that baffling region beyond the First Gate."

      It gets its third and fourth titles, both still in caps.

      • "“Randolph Carter,” IT seemed to say, “MY manifestations on your planet’s extension, the Ancient Ones, have sent you as one who would lately have returned to small lands of dream which he had lost, yet who with greater freedom has risen to greater and nobler desires and curiosities.""

      BEING is used, again.

      • "A sudden shutting-off of the waves left Carter in a chilling and awesome silence full of the spirit of desolation. On every hand pressed the illimitable vastness of the void, yet the seeker knew that the BEING was still there."

      Another use of BEING, and a use of MIND, which fits, as Carter notes the thing does not seem to have distinct physical presence, and his interaction with it is like that with some kind of disembodied force.

      • "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess."

      The term PRESENCE is used to describe the same thing, and Carter's beyond the Gate fragment is once again specified to be the thing talking to the entity, not the entity itself. He is just one of infinite Carter fragments.

      • "He began to understand dimly why there could exist at the same time the little boy Randolph Carter in the Arkham farmhouse in 1883, the misty form on the vaguely hexagonal pillar beyond the First Gate, the fragment now facing the PRESENCE in the limitless abyss, and all the other “Carters” his fancy or perception envisaged."

      Further separation between facets that can be identified as "Carter" and the BEING itself.

      • "Anxious for clearer knowledge, he sent out waves of thought, asking more of the exact relationship between his various facets—the fragment now beyond the Ultimate Gate, the fragment still on the quasi-hexagonal pedestal beyond the First Gate, the boy of 1883, the man of 1928, the various ancestral beings who had formed his heritage and the bulwark of his ego, and the nameless denizens of the other aeons and other worlds which that first hideous flash of ultimate perception had identified with him. Slowly the waves of the BEING surged out in reply, trying to make plain what was almost beyond the reach of an earthly mind."

      Finally, we reach the paragraph being disccused. In context, this is simply clarifying that the BEING Carter has been speaking to has been his own Archetype. The reason Carter and those like him have such zeal and thirst for knowledge is because they are derived from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE, which is just a new title given to the same entity (alongside IT).

      • "The archetypes, throbbed the waves, are the people of the ultimate abyss—formless, ineffable, and guessed at only by rare dreamers on the low-dimensioned worlds. Chief among such was this informing BEING itself . . . which indeed was Carter’s own archetype. The glutless zeal of Carter and all his forbears for forbidden cosmic secrets was a natural result of derivation from the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. On every world all great wizards, all great thinkers, all great artists, are facets of IT."

      The very next sentence, Carter honors the ENTITY, now knowing he is derived from it. Said ENTITY being the SUPREME ARCHETYPE. They are clearly the same thing, with Carter immediately using one of the terms he's already been using to identify it.

      • "Almost stunned with awe, and with a kind of terrifying delight, Randolph Carter’s consciousness did homage to that transcendent ENTITY from which it was derived."

      After this, Carter returns to calling the thing ENTITY/BEING/PRESENCE. SUPREME ARCHETYPE was used simply because Carter realized that his own Archetype was "Chief among such", as before that paragraph, he had no idea the ENTITY was the one from which he was cut.

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    • I still think that Azathoth makes sense.

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    • Same.

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    • One thing I have noticed is that, within two separate works by Lovecraft, two eerily similar statements are made:

      They danced insanely to the high, thin whining Of a cracked flute clutched in a monstrous paw, Whence flow the aimless waves whose chance combining Gives each frail cosmos its eternal law.
      ~ Fungi from Yuggoth
      And beyond all else he glimpsed an infinite gulf of darkness, where solid and semi-solid forms were known only by their windy stirrings, and cloudy patterns of force seemed to superimpose order on chaos and hold forth a key to all the paradoxes and arcana of the worlds we know.
      ~ The Haunter of the Dark

      Hmm... could this mean anything?

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    • BTW, Azathoth (the user) has pretty much convinced me at this point, but I'm still iffy on the whole idea that Azathoth (the character) is dreaming literally everything into existence, when I have read several of Lovecraft's works, and only Fungi from Yuggoth mentions anything about Azathoth dreaming of things - even then, I don't see what part of it says anything other than just "Azathoth is dreaming up things that he doesn't understand."

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    • Yeah, Azzy has largely convinced me as well, after reading through some of the relevant excerpts. Although, I am starting to personally think that comparing Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth / The Supreme Archetype is mostly a pointless task, mainly because of how Lovecraft seems to go back and forth between two perspectives when describing the Ultimate Abyss and its inhabitants, namely:

      1. We have the in-universe perspective of it, which is an unlightened cavern that lies in a state of utter chaos beyond all existence, where Azathoth reigns supreme in an hexagonal throne. This seems to be the side where the Ultimate Gods are often treated as actual beings with characteristics ("nameless paw", "accursed flutes", "primal evil too horrible for description") and are even shown to produce larvae and to have been born at the same time space itself was.

      2. Then we have the "true" nature of the Ultimate Void, which is more of an archetypal expanse devoid of individuality or causation, where the Outer Gods are defined less as entities and moreso as aspects and functions of a completely static and unchanging world, that exist beyond perspective itself in the first place.

      As far we know, the family tree of the Mythos' entities could very well be defined under the framework of the first (local and fractional) viewpoint, where the Gods are treated as literal entities that can breed and produce offspring, and given how TtGotSK goes out of its way to point out how such relationships are irrelevant and fragmentary in respect to the Archetypes themselves, I wouldn't say this is too much of a stretch or an uneducated guess.

      (Besides, as far as I know, TtGotSK itself was co-written by another author called E. Hoffman Price, who drew heavily from stuff like Theosophy for his writing, so the discrepancies between what's in the story and the content present in Lovecraft's other works can be contextually understood fairly well when one keeps this in mind, although I may be getting ahead of myself here)

      Besides this, we have the fact that Azathoth and the Supreme Archetype's characteristics are... Suspiciously similar, given how both are defined as centerpoints for the cosmology (in differing ways, admitedly) and boundless figures that have influence over all else (Azathoth being "lord of all" and the SA being "existence's last, unbounded sweep", as well as "chief among the archetypes"), so their standing in the hierarchy of the Mythos (If we choose to view it as an unified thing and not just a guy and his friends writing random shit while referencing one another) could very well be equivalent, or we could simply say it doesn't really matter, as perspective and causations cease to be on such a level and everything becomes one, so comparisions in the context of their (inherently vague) verse aren't too meaningful. I am more inclined to stick with the latter, myself.

      also I fucking love how this thread at first glance looks like it's just trying to debunk Azathoth being the dreamer of everything yet everyone and their moms kept aiming straight into "he is not sooprem beeng #TeamYog" since the start of it

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    • I agree with Azzy

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    • All things considered, I don't think I would be opposed to giving tier 0 to both Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth, since for all intents and purposes, both exist as all-encompassing metabeings governing everything on a fundamental level. This includes the Outer Gods and their Ultimate Void, which are High 1-A based on agreements over Discord.

      I have to sleep now, so I cannot explain anything about these tiers.

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    • Azzy makes perfect sense, I agree.

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    • This seems mostly settled then.

      I would still greatly appreciate if Azathoth and FanofRPGs would be willing to write an official explanation page for the Cthulhu Mythos hierarchy, as it would help a lot to avoid these types of discussions in the future, and avoid confusion from our visitors.

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    • Alright, I just woke up, so I'll share what I know about the cosmology. Hopefully, the explanation I provide is sufficient.

      In the third dimension, there are known to be an infinite number of universes. Each universe is infinite in scope. The third dimension in its entirety is trivialized by the fourth dimension, as it is described as being cut from it. From the four-dimensional perspective, everything that has happened, is happening, and will happen on the three-dimensional level exists simultaneously. The fifth dimension similarly trivializes the fourth dimension, and this chain continues unto infinity.

      Above all of dimensional space, we have either the "limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity" or the multiplicity of Gates. Take your pick - I see them as being adjacent hierarchies. Either way, these are realms that run deeper than space and time, and since there are infinitely many dimensions of time-space, we can equalize this to 1-A with no issue.

      Beyond these sequences of deeper metaphysical realities, sitting at the metaphorical edge of existence, we come to the Last Void. Now, what makes the ultimate void of chaos be High 1-A is that it is the realm of the Outer Gods. What's so special about them? They are transcendent archetypes who exist beyond all local perspectives and any system of causality, viewing the entire cosmos as a unified, unchanging whole. This applies across all levels of existence.

      Finally, we have the top dogs of the Cthulhu Mythos: Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. If you want my two cents, both of them can be tier 0 due to how they are treated. As Ultima has pointed out, they both are depicted as boundless "master of all" type beings, and as the focal point of the entire verse. I don't see how they can be meaningfully compared, frankly.

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    • Well, we need something considerably more in-depth, preferably with quoted examples, for an official cosmology page.

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    • Switching to neutral after reading Azzy's latest post.

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    • Bump.

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    • Aaaaaaa! Father Azzy is here!

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      I would still greatly appreciate if Azathoth and FanofRPGs would be willing to write an official explanation page for the Cthulhu Mythos hierarchy, as it would help a lot to avoid these types of discussions in the future, and avoid confusion from our visitors.

      I think that this is important, especially as Azathoth plans to leave the wiki.

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    • This exists already



      It doesn't cover absolutely everything, but all the relevant quotes are there

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    • Okay. Thanks. We need an official regular page that explains the tiering for the verse in an easy to understand manner though.

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    • I do still agree with the point of this thread involving fixing certain bits of misinformation, though. I should check through the Mythos pages and see what needs to be updated.

      A few minor things off the top of my head:

      • Anything referring to Nyar as "lesser", since everything we see of him is an avatar.
      • Yog's 'Umr at-Tawil key should probably be renamed "The Ancient Ones", since the story states all the Ancient Ones are Yog's manifestation, not just 'Umr at-Tawil.
      • Randolph Carter's Archetype key should either be removed (his archetype is Yog) or updated to his "Beyond the Gate Fragment" or something. If we do the latter, I think that maybe he should just be Unknown. Said fragment exists outside of all space and time, but is still just Carter at that particular "moment".

      I'm sure there's a bunch more.

      Edit: I'm also not opposed to giving both Yog and Azzy 0 if people think that is preferable (don't have super strong opinions about this). As I said, a lot of the mythos is about interpretation, and I've already laid out my reasons for Azathoth being at the top when attempting to unify this into some sort of semi-cohesive whole, but this doesn't really take away from the grand scale Yog is supposed to occupy, either.

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    • Hykuu wrote:
      This exists already


      It doesn't cover absolutely everything, but all the relevant quotes are there

      This is also a solid reminder that I need to give that blog some minor updates, when I have time.

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    • @Azathoth

      Would you be willing to write an official explanation page for us regarding the CM tiering reasons?

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    • Bump.

      To elaborate, I can get behind the idea that Azathoth > Yog-Sothoth, but I do not believe that Azzy transcends Yog. In my opinion, these two share the maximum ontological status. Azathoth "dreamed up" all of existence, which is embodied by Yog-Sothoth, and sits at the center of it all. If Azathoth is the king, then Yog-Sothoth is the kingdom.

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    • I know I'm really late to this but I just wanted to say I also agree with Azzy

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    • I also agree with Azzy

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    • Agreeing with Azzy.

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    • so is Yog above Azzy or?

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    • Since everyone is agreeing with Azzy’s reasoning it seems that Azathoth will stay above Yog.

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    • The wording still makes it sound implied that Azathoth was the one who created Yog. Saying that Yog is everything where as Azathoth is the passive creator of everything. I may be misunderstanding certain details and Former Staff Azzy would definitely be more informed, but I agree with him regardless.

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    • Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot wrote: @Agnaa

      “Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos.”

      Then you have the “ancient legends” of The Haunter of the Dark, which come from the protagonist reading the Necronomicon and other such dark tomes.

      The reason most people know about Azathoth, just like Yog-Sothoth, is because of the Necronomicon. The exact same Necronomicon which refers to Yog-Sothoth as containing past, present, and future refers to Azathoth as the being who “rules all time and space” and as “Lord of All Things”.

      Again, the Necronomicon is fractional, but suggests Azathoth to be at the top, which Lovecraft did, as well.

      The issue with putting Yog-Sothoth somewhere above him is that it is not backed by any actual statements in-universe (Azathoth is never mentioned in TtGotSK) nor author statements (the single comparative thing we have between them from Lovecraft places Azathoth higher).

      If this is more an issue about “none of these quotes mention the Supreme Archetype”, I will again mention that the Supreme Archetype is Yog-Sothoth; every name used to refer to the same creature in TtGotSK is written in all caps. “YOG-SOTHOTH”, “BEING”, “ENTITY”, “PRESENCE”, “SUPREME ARCHETYPE”, etc.

      But those views are fractional and irrelevant to the true nature of both of them. The fraction of Azzy being > the fraction of Yog means nothing. And similarly, the lineage chart showing the fraction of Azzy being > the fraction of Yog means nothing for their true natures.

      Since we don't have substantial info on Azzy's true nature it should be Unknown, but since we know Yog's true nature as the Supreme Archetype, it should be >> the fractions of Azzy and Yog.

      SA >>>>> f.Azzy > f.Yog

      T.Azzy = Unknown

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    • Yeah, I can see Agnaa's point here. As I said on the post above, Lovecraft kind of goes back and forth between two differing viewpoints when describing the Ultimate Abyss and its inhabitants, and the most prominent descriptions of it that are written about outside of TtGotSK are in turn pretty explicitly pertaining to a fractional perception of the true, archetypal nature of these entities, but that is directly experienced by the protagonists multiple times, nonetheless.

      For instance, the whole sonnet of Fungi from Yuggoth describing Azathoth has the protagonist being taken to the Ultimate Void where the Outer Gods reside, and even sees Nyarlathotep striking Azathoth in the head in comtempt. And then we have Dream-Quest for Unknown Kaddath, where Randolph Carter interacts with larval Outer Gods, something which implies relationships the Archetypes completely trivialize in the first place.

      Hence, I'd like to propose we give them two keys: One for the fractionary, local identities we know as "The Outer Gods", and another for the nameless archetypes from TtGotSK, which are all united in the totality of the Supreme Archetype. In other words:

      High 1-A | 0

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    • (The following post is being made on Aeyu's behalf)

      Okay, for start, 'Azathoth' being "above" 'Yog-Sothoth' doesn't really make much sense, nor does the lineage chart. The archetypes, especially the Supreme Archetype, form a "changless totality beyond perspective". The idea of these beings stemming from some linear causality makes no sense contextually speaking. "But what if it's on some level we don't understand," is invalid as well, as it is directly stated they exist beyond perspective and the Archetypes govern all angles of every (particular) thing, united in the Supreme Archetype which is (universal). Furthermore, even if Azzy did "precede" Yog, why is that immediately evidence of Azzy being > Yog? Simply originating before something isn't necessarily proof that the preceding thing is above the other.

      (It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike.)

      Saying that an individual being with an identity is above this doesn't really make sense with the context being given that this is clearly stated to be the be-all-end all. Additionally, conceptions like a name such as "Yog-Sothoth" are considered to be fragmentary misconceptions which don't address the full scope of this "changeless totality", so why would the same not apply to Azathoth? I think it'd be much better to consider Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth as a Monad or Absolute united in a Supreme Archetype, which is supported by Yog being this all-encompassing outside shell with Azathoth as its nucleus.

      In conclusion. I think a much better solution to all of our woes would be to rate all "Outer Gods" as fractional entities with individual identity as High 1-A, and to rate those things which participate in a changeless totality beyond any perspective given as 0 (All Outer gods' "true form", Azathoth, Yog-Sothoth)

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    • @Ultima Which profiles exactly would get those two keys?

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    • All outer Gods?

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    • GLHF22 wrote:
      All outer Gods?

      I guess so

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    • I think there's also going to be a new page for the Supreme Archetype, like how we already have God (DC Comics) and The Amaranth.

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    • Remember when people where saying theres no chance of a verse getting 3 tier 0s and yet now CM is getting like 8+ ovo

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    • Let's wait for a response from Azathoth first.

      Also, why would all Outer Gods get a tier 0 key? I mean, what is the hierarchical validation behind it?

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    • @Antvasima I'm not super educated on CM, but to my understanding the short version is:

      The current tiers for those profiles for the fractional viewings of the Outer Gods. They have local identities, relationships, and other things like that.

      The tier 0 key would be for their nameless archetypes united in the totality of the Supreme Archetype. For their true forms; as a changeless totality beyond perspective.

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    • Okay. I am not sure whether or not that qualifies for tier 0 though.

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    • From what i understand, a small fraction of em are High 1-A hence why their true form get the Tier 0 since their true form is a changeless totality beyond any perspective.

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    • Okay, and what is the rationale for making the fractions of regular Outer Gods High 1-A?

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    • Well, all I really know is that the local, fractional Outer Gods transcend the limitless hierarchy of vacua. I'll make a post... probably later today with quotes to support the High 1-A stuff.

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    • Because all what we know about em in the mythos (yes what we used to give them their Tier) is just a small fraction of them. CMIIW

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    • GLHF22 wrote: Because all what we know about em in the mythos (yes what we used to give them their Tier) is just a small fraction of them.

      That on its own would not make them High 1-A, though. I can find more concrete evidence to justify it, but it's gonna take a good while since I have to do homework later today, so I hope you guys can be patient.

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    • We can.

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    • Alright, this took a good chunk of my time, but I will now post some quotes to shed some light on the proposed ratings.

      First of all, in the short story Hypnos, the protagonist and his friend are studying a more profound universe which runs deeper than the waking world:

      Of our studies it is impossible to speak, since they held so slight a connexion with anything of the world as living men conceive it. They were of that vaster and more appalling universe of dim entity and consciousness which lies deeper than matter, time, and space, and whose existence we suspect only in certain forms of sleep—those rare dreams beyond dreams which come never to common men, and but once or twice in the lifetime of imaginative men.
      ~ Hypnos

      And this universe is what gave birth to the physical cosmos in the first place:

      The cosmos of our waking knowledge, born from such an universe as a bubble is born from the pipe of a jester, touches it only as such a bubble may touch its sardonic source when sucked back by the jester’s whim.
      ~ Hypnos

      So now the two are exploring this vast, undimensioned universe, and what they're doing is reaching into progressively deeper realities, with each "ascension" making them increasingly aware of the full scope of existence:

      Human utterance can best convey the general character of our experiences by calling them plungings or soarings; for in every period of revelation some part of our minds broke boldly away from all that is real and present, rushing aërially along shocking, unlighted, and fear-haunted abysses, and occasionally tearing through certain well-marked and typical obstacles describable only as viscous, uncouth clouds or vapours.
      ~ Hypnos

      Another statement of transcending time:

      Of the progress of time we kept no record, for time had become to us the merest illusion. I know only that there must have been something very singular involved, since we came at length to marvel why we did not grow old.
      ~ Hypnos

      And now, thanks to an unknown "wind," the protagonists are suddenly rushing through an endless series of vacua and straying further and further from the waking cosmos:

      There was a night when winds from unknown spaces whirled us irresistibly into limitless vacua beyond all thought and entity. Perceptions of the most maddeningly untransmissible sort thronged upon us; perceptions of infinity which at the time convulsed us with joy, yet which are now partly lost to my memory and partly incapable of presentation to others. Viscous obstacles were clawed through in rapid succession, and at length I felt that we had been borne to realms of greater remoteness than any we had previously known.
      ~ Hypnos

      Later in the story, when the two decide to never do this again after Hypnos experiences something totally horrifying past the final barrier, Hypnos himself is compelled to stare off into space in some direction:

      Especially was he afraid to be out of doors alone when the stars were shining, and if forced to this condition he would often glance furtively at the sky as if hunted by some monstrous thing therein. He did not always glance at the same place in the sky—it seemed to be a different place at different times. On spring evenings it would be low in the northeast. In the summer it would be nearly overhead. In the autumn it would be in the northwest. In winter it would be in the east, but mostly if in the small hours of morning. Midwinter evenings seemed least dreadful to him. Only after two years did I connect this fear with anything in particular; but then I began to see that he must be looking at a special spot on the celestial vault whose position at different times corresponded to the direction of his glance—a spot roughly marked by the constellation Corona Borealis.
      ~ Hypnos

      Then, one fateful day, Hypnos falls into a deep sleep from which the protagonist cannot awaken him. As this happens, he notices that Corona Borealis, something which Hypnos is scared of, is rising in the northeast - and from that direction, the protagonist hears what is likely the Outer Gods:

      The tension of my vigil became oppressive, and a wild train of trivial impressions and associations thronged through my almost unhinged mind. I heard a clock strike somewhere—not ours, for that was not a striking clock—and my morbid fancy found in this a new starting-point for idle wanderings. Clocks—time—space—infinity—and then my fancy reverted to the local as I reflected that even now, beyond the roof and the fog and the rain and the atmosphere, Corona Borealis was rising in the northeast. Corona Borealis, which my friend had appeared to dread, and whose scintillant semicircle of stars must even now be glowing unseen through the measureless abysses of aether. All at once my feverishly sensitive ears seemed to detect a new and wholly distinct component in the soft medley of drug-magnified sounds—a low and damnably insistent whine from very far away; droning, clamouring, mocking, calling, from the northeast.
      ~ Hypnos

      So basically, since the Ultimate Void is reached and the Outer Gods are met after already breaching an infinite number of metaphysical realms, each one demonstrated to be more profound than the previous, with the final barrier leading up to them being incalculably denser than any of the other barriers, this implies that they utterly transcend the entire sequence of the vacua.

      In case there are still doubts that Hypnos met the Outer Gods, the association of the Outer Gods with the stars and the sky is made elsewhere. In The Dreams in the Witch House, our protagonist, named Walter Gilman, is compelled to stare off into the direction of a certain point in space, which makes it more evident that it was the Ultimate Void which Hypnos went into because he did the same:

      Some unknown attraction was pulling his eyes in a seemingly irrelevant direction, for he could not help staring at a certain vacant spot on the floor. As the day advanced the focus of his unseeing eyes changed position, and by noon he had conquered the impulse to stare at vacancy. About two o’clock he went out for lunch, and as he threaded the narrow lanes of the city he found himself turning always to the southeast. Only an effort halted him at a cafeteria in Church Street, and after the meal he felt the unknown pull still more strongly.
      ~ The Dreams in the Witch House
      The southeastward pull still held, and only with tremendous resolution could Gilman drag himself into the old house and up the rickety stairs. For hours he sat silent and aimless, with his eyes shifting gradually westward. About six o’clock his sharpened ears caught the whining prayers of Joe Mazurewicz two floors below, and in desperation he seized his hat and walked out into the sunset-golden streets, letting the now directly southward pull carry him where it might. An hour later darkness found him in the open fields beyond Hangman’s Brook, with the glimmering spring stars shining ahead. The urge to walk was gradually changing to an urge to leap mystically into space, and suddenly he realised just where the source of the pull lay.
      ~ The Dreams in the Witch House
      It was in the sky. A definite point among the stars had a claim on him and was calling him. Apparently it was a point somewhere between Hydra and Argo Navis, and he knew that he had been urged toward it ever since he had awaked soon after dawn. In the morning it had been underfoot; afternoon found it rising in the southeast, and now it was roughly south but wheeling toward the west.
      ~ The Dreams in the Witch House

      And while we're talking about this story, there is this quote to consider:

      There were suggestions of the vague, twilight abysses, and of still vaster, blacker abysses beyond them—abysses in which all fixed suggestions of form were absent. He had been taken there by the bubble-congeries and the little polyhedron which always dogged him; but they, like himself, had changed to wisps of milky, barely luminous mist in this farther void of ultimate blackness. Something else had gone on ahead—a larger wisp which now and then condensed into nameless approximations of form—and he thought that their progress had not been in a straight line, but rather along the alien curves and spirals of some ethereal vortex which obeyed laws unknown to the physics and mathematics of any conceivable cosmos. Eventually there had been a hint of vast, leaping shadows, of a monstrous, half-acoustic pulsing, and of the thin, monotonous piping of an unseen flute—but that was all. Gilman decided he had picked up that last conception from what he had read in the Necronomicon about the mindless entity Azathoth, which rules all time and space from a curiously environed black throne at the centre of Chaos.
      ~ The Dreams in the Witch House

      So, given all that I have presented, I think that there is reason to believe that the Outer Gods - not even the eternal, static Archetypes themselves, but the local beings called "Other Gods" which are merely fractions of the Archetypes - qualify for a High 1-A rating.

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    • Would Azatoth's reasonning change too?

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    • Yes! Yes! Yes! Oh my God!

      Yes! Yes! Yes! Oh my God!

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    • So it's still Azzy>Yog?

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    • Okay. Thank you for the explanation, but why is the initial infinite hierarchy 1-A+ and not High 1-B?

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    • Obscenly wrote: So it's still Azzy>Yog?

      In reference to the Outer Gods? I would say yes.

      In reference to the Archetypes? No. I think that they are both the Supreme Archetype.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay. Thank you for the explanation, but why is the initial infinite hierarchy 1-A+ and not High 1-B?

      I have to do more homework and then move in to my new house, but I think I can address that tomorrow, if not tonight.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • Alright, since I have some free time, and since the move is taking longer than I thought it would, I'm gonna push out this post real quick.

      Since I was questioned on how the infinite hierarchy of vacua is 1-A+ and not High 1-B, I'm going to post some quotes from Through the Gates of the Silver Key that talk about dimensions.

      So first off, when Randolph Carter accepts the Supreme Archetype's offer to receive ultimate knowledge, right off the bat, it is stated that there are an infinite number of dimensions:

      He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left.
      ~ Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      It is then explained that each figure of space in a given dimension is merely a phase of a corresponding form of the next dimension up:

      They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity.
      ~ Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      Right after this, Carter is then told that the three-dimensional Earth experienced by humans and their "gods" is but an infinitesimal phase of an archetypical Earth, which in itself is considered a "small wholeness" and something derived from the ultimate abyss:

      The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality.
      ~ Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      This original Earth, which the three-dimensional Earth and its analogues on all levels of dimensionality, is called "many-dimensioned." But it is more consistently referred to as something outside of all dimensions of time and space, as we see in these quotes:

      By the time the rite was over Carter knew that he was in no region whose place could be told by earth’s geographers, and in no age whose date history could fix. For the nature of what was happening was not wholly unfamiliar to him. There were hints of it in the cryptical Pnakotic fragments, and a whole chapter in the forbidden Necronomicon of the mad Arab Abdul Alhazred had taken on significance when he had deciphered the designs graven on the Silver Key. A gate had been unlocked—not indeed the Ultimate Gate, but one leading from earth and time to that extension of earth which is outside time, and from which in turn the Ultimate Gate leads fearsomely and perilously to the Last Void which is outside all earths, all universes, and all matter.
      ~ Through the Gates of the Silver Key
      Memory and imagination shaped dim half-pictures with uncertain outlines amidst the seething chaos, but Carter knew that they were of memory and imagination only. Yet he felt that it was not chance which built these things in his consciousness, but rather some vast reality, ineffable and undimensioned, which surrounded him and strove to translate itself into the only symbols he was capable of grasping. For no mind of earth may grasp the extensions of shape which interweave in the oblique gulfs outside time and the dimensions we know.
      ~ Through the Gates of the Silver Key

      Now, I do have reason to believe that the Gates form a hierarchy which is "parallel" to that of the vacua, but that is wholly irrelevant to the purpose of this post. What I want everyone here to understand is: there are an infinite number of dimensions; higher dimensions are treated as being qualitatively superior to lower dimensions; and those vacua which Hypnos delved into should logically be superior to all dimensions, as they are defined in terms of space and time, two concepts which the vacua trivialize on any level.

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    • Or in short, the base level of the vacua is a more fundamental reality which transcends space and time, i.e. is 1-A? And hence, transcending the vacua is transcending a 1-A hierarchy, which is High 1-A?

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    • Well, simply transcending space-time, even on the conceptual level, is not instantly 1-A, nor is High 1-A as simple as "I transcend infinitely many levels of 1-A," but both tiers are supported by the text, yes.

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    • So is everything settled?

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    • Roachman40 wrote: So is everything settled?

      No. We're still waiting for others to comment.

      Please just let this happen as it happens. People sometimes take a while to respond.

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    • Agnaa wrote:

      Roachman40 wrote: So is everything settled?

      No. We're still waiting for others to comment.

      Please just let this happen as it happens. People sometimes take a while to respond.

      ah ok, my apologies.

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    • Yeah, we kinda can't move on without Azzy (the ex-bureaucrat) giving his thoughts on what has just been presented.

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    • ok

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    • I want Azzy (the entity) giving his input though

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    • I dunno why, that guy’s an idiot

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    • Monarch Laciel wrote:
      I dunno why, that guy’s an idiot

      lol

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    • Azzy is technically still a bureaucrat, just not an active one.

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    • They're talking about the character by Howard Phillips Lovecraft.

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    • He's referring to kingpin's comment

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    • Noted.

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    • Oh God oh fuck I have to read more of this?

      I'll try to check back on this, in the next few days.

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    • It is cool, man

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    • No problem. Thank you for helping out.

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    • A FANDOM user
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