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  • This is something I've been juggling with for a little while, out of a desire to make more pages for The Witcher.

    The problem I'm facing comes from this scene. After juggling with it for a while, I've decided it would be best to ask and get some opinions on it.

    Now, let me explain what I mean. At around 2:05 in the scene, the character Yennefer gets struck by lightning while trying to capture it in a bottle. At around 2:39 in the scene, she ends up reflecting the energy back at another character, Tissaia, and Tissaia manages to successfuly deflect it away from close range. My question is; does this count as a reaction to lightning?

    Now, the arguments against this are pretty straight forward, so much so I barely considered it when I first watched this scene. It seems as though it is supernatural in nature, and it's enough of a one-off occurrence that we can't properly evaluate if it meets many of the normal conditions for lightning. So it'd be pretty easy to toss out.

    However, after thinking it over (and getting context from the rest of the show) I'm not so certain. Yennefer has demonstrated at several points throughout the show that she's capable of "absorbing" the energy of something and then dishing it out precisely herself. As one example in the show, she was shown to be capable of absorbing the fire burning down a fort and then unleashing it all at once on a nearby forest.

    What's actually shown in the show doesn't seem to be simply "gaining energy and using it to source her powers". This is an example that the show depicts as essentially attack reflection; she's capable of taking in the attack and essentially "moving" it somewhere else.

    As such, with what's shown in the show, it's very heavily implied that the lightning she shot at Tissaia would be almost exactly the same as the lightning that she was struck by in the sky, since she just reflected it at Tissaia rather than making the lightning herself.

    My question is whether this would be enough to justify considering it to be the speed of lightning. That is, if she was struck by real lightning, and essentially reflected that lightning back at Tissaia, would this count as a lightning feat? And would Tissaia reacting to the lightning in time be enough to justify calcing a speed feat?

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    • In my opinion is a legit lightning speed feat, it was a manipulation of real lightning.

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    • You should check through the Lightning Feats page, and ask some calc group members to comment here.

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    • I have checked through the Lightning Feats page, though I made this thread mainly because it's a bit more complicated and specific than what the page explains.

      To vastly simplify, all I'm really asking here is if (essentially) Attack Reflection would lead to a lightning bolt keeping the speed it had before.

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    • It's a ball of lightning, not a bolt.

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    • Well, DontTalkDT is probably the best suited to help you out with this.

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    • bump

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, DontTalkDT is probably the best suited to help you out with this.

      Has anybody asked him?

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    • He states on his profile that he is currently absent, so I've refrained from contacting him ATM.

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    • The feat is legit but huge outlier.

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    • Elaborate?

      The only feat in the entire series we have for speed is Geralt reflecting a crossbow bolt, and that’s practically a placeholder feat. I don’t think this would be an outlier.

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    • Do I really need to elaborate?

      You are trynig to push an upgrade with a single feat that is above anything else in the whole verse.

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    • ..and?

      All the verse has is literally a single, ultra casual speed feat. What's been "demonstrated in the verse" isn't reliable as a ceiling for these characters.

      If we used this kind of logic when making CRTs, we would literally never once upgrade anything at all on the entire wiki. You're over-exaggerating.

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    • Ye, it can't be an outlier when their speed rating is back up by one single casual feat, BTW, if that is considered real lightning they would be bumped to MHS

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    • Slacjow wrote:
      Do I really need to elaborate?

      You are trynig to push an upgrade with a single feat that is above anything else in the whole verse.

      The only other speed feats done within the verse are very casual. Geralt efortlessly deflecting a crossbow bolt twice in a row comes to mind. 

      Just because there is one feat on this level doesn't mean it's an outlier. It's an outlier if the feat contradicts a limit the character has been shown to have. (For example a character struggling wiith building level fighters constantly, suddenly clapping the universe out of existence.)​​​​

      Outlier argument does not apply as the speed feats shown prior to the bolt catch were casual and by no means their upper limit. 

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    • Drite77 wrote:
      Ye, it can't be an outlier when their speed rating is back up by one single casual feat, BTW, if that is considered real lightning they would be bumped to MHS

      Should be real lightning. The bolts are coming from a lightning storm. 

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    • ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • It's crazy to me how people continue to call it a bolt when it's a darn ball...

      Efb2f758c682f380fec5ff64e8b2274c
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    • @DarkGrath

      If we used this kind of logic when making CRTs, we would literally never once upgrade anything at all on the entire wiki. You're over-exaggerating.

      I am not exaggerating anything.The site is using that kind of logic,it uses the term "Outlier" for feats that are beyond anything the verse is capable of.

      No one in the Witcher is Lightning Fast,even Witchers aren't that fast and they are known to have best reactions,much faster than Mages.

      The only other speed feats done within the verse are very casual. Geralt efortlessly deflecting a crossbow bolt twice in a row comes to mind. 

      Yeah,two problems with this:

      1.It was Geralt,a Witcher with great reactions,not a mage with normal human level reactions.

      2.Lightning>Crossbow,kinda.And the difference isn't small.

      Just because there is one feat on this level doesn't mean it's an outlier. It's an outlier if the feat contradicts a limit the character has been shown to have. (For example a character struggling wiith building level fighters constantly, suddenly clapping the universe out of existence.)​​​​

      Mages are potrayed as being around the same lvl as normal humans and weaker than trained human soldiers.Are you going to upgarde every normal human then?Or are you going to call all the instances of humans killing Mages an outlier or PIS?Because I don't see how a human kills MHS Mage even in close combat.For Sonic character a normal human is a slow motion picture that barely moves,now imagine MHS.

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    • What exactly is your argument here?

      Yes, I'm quite obviously aware of what outliers are at this point. Look at my username colour; I don't have it for not understanding anything about the way the wiki works.

      The idea that "Witchers aren't lightning fast" is based entirely on the games/books at best (which is independent in feats from the TV show) and at worst it's just an assumption.

      We don't scale characters on extremely casual feats unless it's necessary, as that demonstrates they are capable of far greater feats. This doesn't fit the boundaries of an outlier at all.

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    • @Sigurd

      I am also very uncertain about using this feat for that reason.

      @DarkGrath

      If DontTalkDT isn't available, you can ask other calc group members to comment here instead, such as Ugarik, Executor, Alex, and Bambu.

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    • I have done so.

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    • Okay. Thank you.

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    • Haven't watched Netflix show, but there were statements in books that Geralt is actually striking with speed of a lightning bolt. That was in The Last Wish I believe.

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    • I calc'd the arrow dodging feat to be baseline High Hypersonic and that would only apply to Geralt's combat speed but Bambu decreed it to be an outlier and the feat is hard to perform, though I only saw it by Ciri's perspective and since then I've seen that even the devs confirmed that only a Witcher can consistently swat aside arrows so eh.

      Plus, since the Supersonic+ feat is already on sketchy grounds though I believe it to be okay-ish for vampires because sonic bruxae are a thing, the High Hypersonic feat being combat speed and reactions only wouldn't hurt.

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    • In Witcher 1 they are also stated to have lightning fast reflexes, there are many lightning/electricity feats in verse.

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    • The deflecting arrows feat is one of the most common for Witchers. When Leo died because he wasn't through Trial yet (shot by crossbow bolt that Geralt deflected), Geralt doing this several times in TW3, in the books too.

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    • Yeah honestly I'm gonna say that the High Hypersonic being combat speed and reactions only should work while his movement speed remains Supersonic+

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    • @KLOL506

      I believe it to be okay-ish for vampires because sonic bruxae are a thing,

      Source?

      Because as I know the only Sonic part of their attack speed is that they literally scream.

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    • Iffy on it counting. Even if we assume the energy was absorbed into her from the lightning itself, it has now undergone a time when it wasn't lightning. It wasn't moving at lightning speeds and it didn't have the properties of lightning. It had the properties of absorbed energy. So I'm generally against considering the projected energy as legitimate, true-to-speed lightning. 

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    • Witcher 3's beastiary. Bruxae use sonic attacks and vampires like Dettlaff are considerably superior to them.

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    • @KLOL506

      Its what I said,the Sonic part of her attack is a scream,which is Speed of Sound.Detlaff and Regis can't scream like Bruxae.

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    • They create sonic booms when moving.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      Iffy on it counting. Even if we assume the energy was absorbed into her from the lightning itself, it has now undergone a time when it wasn't lightning. It wasn't moving at lightning speeds and it didn't have the properties of lightning. It had the properties of absorbed energy. So I'm generally against considering the projected energy as legitimate, true-to-speed lightning. 

      What about the arrow-thing tho? Since it's the only other feat that has been repeatedly carried out in the Witcher verse?

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    • I mean... what? I thought this was about the Netflix series?

      The arrow calc you linked above had the problem of outlierhood at the time. Has anything significantly changed in that time or...?

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    • Yeah... I'm confused. This is Netflix Geralt. Why is the game Geralt even in here?

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    • @KLOL506

      I am talking about the Sonic Bruxae's and not the Sonic Detlaff.

      Bruxae are also known for their sonic attacks, which knock down and stun their prey.

      The greatest threat to a witcher is the bruxa's voice. The creature can screech with such force that the shockwave will knock even a huge man down, making him easy prey for the vampiress

      Here is another quot from Witcher 2.

      Conclusion:

      The sonic part of her attacks isn't physical movements but her Sound.And Detlaff's page should be updated,the Bruxae justification should be removed.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:
      I mean... what? I thought this was about the Netflix series?

      The arrow calc you linked above had the problem of outlierhood at the time. Has anything significantly changed in that time or...?

      Nah, we're talking about the game. Netflix version of arrow swatting is a bit different.

      Turns out, it's not an outlier and it's basically Geralt's most common feat of speed in Witcher Lore.

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    • Why is the game Geralt being brought up here?

      This is about Netflix Geralt.

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    • Oh.

      Well the thread should have Netflix Geralt as the topic.

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    • At first I meant book Geralt, from The Last Wish. From what I've heard Netflix series are overall kinda based on TLW.

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    • DarkGrath wrote: To vastly simplify, all I'm really asking here is if (essentially) Attack Reflection would lead to a lightning bolt keeping the speed it had before.

      It depend in how the verse itself treats its attack reflection; like even after the shape of the lightning was changed to an animal one or if it turned to another color after it was reflected, the author still notes that it has the same speed as a normal lightning.

      What I can say is if there is no indication about such thing in this case or series, then it is something iffy and not very safe to assume it is the same speed after what happened in that scene.

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    • Hm. I see.

      The verse generally treats this kind of thing as being the case, though there probably aren't enough examples of it thus far. It's shown, for example, that she can absorb fire and then pour the fire out exactly the same in both potency and amount (just somewhere else). It's more like redirecting the energy source rather than simply gaining power from it.

      Would a calc for this feat perhaps be appropriate for a "Possibly" speed rating?

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    • There are guidelines for lightning and it's speed not for fire.

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    • Not quite what I meant; I meant that as an example of how Yennefer's attack reflection (for lack of better terminology) demonstrably depicts her shooting out energy the same way it was before, just redirecting it rather than changing it.

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    • Yes but redirecting the energy of the lightning via absorption doesn't mean it kept the same speed as a bolt of lightning.

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    • Alex seems to make sense to me.

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    • Ball lightning actually moves at speeds far slower than that of a cloud to ground bolt. 8.6 m/s according to some 2014 findings. The feat wouldn't have any significant result. 

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ball_lightning 

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    • Thank you for the information. It would probably be a good idea to add a brief note about this to our Lightning Feats page.

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    • M3X

      This wikipedia article is about something too specific. It isn't worthy to put this in the page. It is not because a verse use a lightning ball, that the ball is created from a thunderstorm or some lightning bolt.

      The characters is just just manipulating the element. 

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    • Okay. I would appreciate if somebody could ask DontTalkDT to comment here though, just to make sure.

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    • I think M3X has a point here. The ball seen in Witcher is nothing like IRL ball lightning.

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    • Okay. I just thought that ball lightning might be useful information to include in our Lightning Feats page.

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    • Yeah well ball lightning hasn't been accurately described in terms of appearance until 6 years ago and even then it looks nothing like the ones in Witcher.

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    • Okay.

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    • A FANDOM user
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