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  • The 15th Round of the 8-B Bracket Hub

    The Tree of the 8-B Bracket Hub


    Speed Equalized

    77 meters apart

    Location - The Great Pyramid of Giza

    8-B Keys used


    The Hunter - 7 (JoshSSJGod, 00potato, DeathNoodles, XSOULOFCINDERX, Mr. Bambu, Zamasu Chan, Moritzva)

    Celistia Ralgris - 5 (Ionliosite, Overlord775, Zaratthustra, Necromercer, Schnee One)

    Inconclusive - 0 ()


    The Hunter

    Celistia Ralgris

    • With no calcs (Safe to assume they're just baseline) - 11 Tons
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    • I want to cry. Put them at a higher distance, 7 meters is extremely close.

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    • Okay, I'll put it at 77

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    • Ok, so, what did Hunter lead with?

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    • Ghillie Mantle + Sleephax + Experience killing enemies stronger than him and strong enough to One-Shot the monster the 20.2 feat comes from.

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    • Oh yeah, and her Paralysis is useless since The Hunter has equipment that negates Paralysis.

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    • Ghillie Mantle is the Camouflague, right? Celistia can just nuke if she sees her opponent disappears.

      How does the Hunter do the sleep hax?

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    • So this is basically just like all of Hunter's previous matches. Alrighty then, that's fun to know.

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    • The Hunter is pretty straight forward considering this tactic works on every monster in Monster Hunter.

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    • Yeah, but, how does the Hunter do the sleep hax?

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    • He applies it via either Tranqs or smacking you with a Sleep Weapon.

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    • And it works on Metallic enemies from what I remember.

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    • Bump

      No votes for now I think

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      And it works on Metallic enemies from what I remember.

      Metallic Enemies =/= Robots

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    • Bump

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    • "Tranqs" are tranquilizers, right? If they are, then they probably won't get past the forcefield; and which is the "sleep weapon"?

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    • There's a lot of Weapons with the sleep effect on them.

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    • which again, i would like proof that would work on a robot that doesn't have a mind or biology to affect

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      i would like proof that would work on a robot that doesn't have a mind or biology to affect

      I actually wonder why is this necesary to this match.

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    • It's really not. That's just what everyone says he starts with since it's the easiest thing for him to do on everything he fought. Anyway, The Hunter legit outclasses her in everything. The only caveat being he himself can't teleport.

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    • Actually, would the sleep hax given she has resistance to mind hax?

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    • Everytime someone asked that, the response was Sleephax doesn't get negged by Mindhax Resistance.

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    • Why wouldn't it? Sleep hax is directly linked to the mind, mindhax resistance should cover it.

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    • Does Mindhax Resistance work against Tranquilizers? Because the Sleep Weapons could range from any of the weapon types in Monster Hunter, including a giant 6 foot long, 3 foot wide, 6 inch thick Greatsword.

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    • It can. It can affect Monsters who have high resistance to the Dragon Element which directly attacks the mind.

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    • JoshSSJGod wrote: It can. It can affect Monsters who have high resistance to the Dragon Element which directly attacks the mind.

      To what scale? Because I want to compare it to Celis' resistance.

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    • Does at least low 6-B answer your question?

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    • JoshSSJGod wrote: Does at least low 6-B answer your question?

      No, because mindhax is measure on the amount of people, not tiers.

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    • In that case then I'm sure. It can work on a group, yes but I don't know the limit.

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    • Ok, Iblis' Mental Pollution, which is as far as Celistia resits on this key, worked on the armies of the 7 countries of the World Allience at once when they invaded Avalon.

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote: Does Mindhax Resistance work against Tranquilizers? Because the Sleep Weapons could range from any of the weapon types in Monster Hunter, including a giant 6 foot long, 3 foot wide, 6 inch thick Greatsword.

      Okay but since we kinda skimmed over this, I'll bring it up again. Also Hunter's sleep via weapons is considered a Status Effect.

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    • Celistia has resistance to Status Effect Inducement (it's on her page) and resists both biological Mindhax and supernatural mindhax. Also, I don't really see how that whole feet argument has anything to do with the debate here.

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    • The Sleephax aren't even the thing that gives the Hunter the win. He literally outclasses all of her stats and resists her Hax aside from Teleportation.

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    • Just repeating that he outclasses in everything isn't an argument, get something better for your case

      From what i see here, Celistia greatly outdoes the Hunter in ranged combact and could just spam from range, abuse the fact that the hunter can't fly and even just teleport away from attacks.

      there's also the fact that since Celistia is inside a giant mech armor, a lot of Hunter's offensive weapons are negated.

      I see Celistia holding the advantage here

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      there's also the fact that since Celistia is inside a giant mech armor

      Celistia is inside a giant mech armor?!

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    • Celistia Lindwurm
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    • That isn't giant, it's like 3 metres tall.

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    • ... just realized it isn't a mecha

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    • She still can't see through the Ghillie Mantle, which will allow the Hunter to sneak up on a grab a hold of her so that Range and Teleportation aren't gonna be that useful. Unless she can teleport by herself while being touched.

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    • Problem is, The Hunter has dealt with all that before.

      • Hunter has dealt with greatly intelligent Monsters that could fly and use ranged attacks basically every fight. They also have the same range of hundreds of Meters and can actually fly with certain weapons.
      • Hunter has probability manipulation, sound, light, minor physics, damage reduction, stats amps, a much higher AP and paralysis to keep her still.
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    • @Soul

      She isn't just gonna stand still, she can fly and nuke the battlefield

      @Josh

      Very intelligent monsters that very conviniently decide to fight melee

      also, none of those beside the AP, the status and stat amp are even helpful here

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    • Pretty sure that's Game Mechanics to make it more fair to the player.

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    • Ghillie Mantle isn't really useful when your opponent can just fly and nuke the place.

      JoshSSJGod wrote:

      • Hunter has probability manipulation, sound, light, minor physics, damage reduction, stats amps, a much higher AP and paralysis to keep her still.

      How does all of those work?

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    • This will be a drawn out encounter, with Celestia flying around and nuking Hunter. He will have ways to get her out of the sky though, flash pods and sonic pods might stun her long enough (they are pretty much flashbangs and lound noise makers that stun you.) He has an AP and dura advantage, and healing to ensure he can last long enough to land one of them.

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    • Hunter also matches Celistia's range and and has flight as well (idk why that was just skimmed over) and as for the hax I mentioned.

      • Probability Manipulation obviously does help. It gives the Hunter the best chances possible at doing what he plans to due to his "Luck".
      • Hunter's Sound and Light Manipulations are consistently shown to be able to take down airborne opponents (even blind/deaf ones)
      • The Physics Manipulation just helps The Hunter force Celistia into making a mistake by reducing friction just for example.
      • Damage Reduction is just reduced damage with paired with his Probability Manipulation is going off constantly which lessens Cel's attack even further counting the buffs the Hunter is applying to himself already and her much lower AP compared to his durability.
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    • Loud noise won't really work, Drakkhen Megistri already proved that. Would flashbangs even work? Celistia is used to work with lightining, so she has clearly seen a lot of flashing light in her life.

      Celistia has fought againts people with AP and Dura adventage like the Ragnaroks or Sacred Eclipse. And she was capable of destroying Sacred Eclipse's clones, which are as durable as the original.

      About the probability, exactly how does it give him the best chances?

      Reducing friction is something Celistia has already fought, Lisesharte Atismata can do it with her gravity manip.

      That last one gets solved by Break Purge.

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    • Pretty sure that Probability Manipulation is just something along the lines of "Increased drop chances"

      That's just how attacking an airborn enemy works in general, you hit them and they fall.also blinding/sound attacks working on deaf/blind opponents is clearly game mechanincs.

      not sure how's that gonna help when Celistia flies around

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      • The Flashbangs are consistently more effective than even Kirin's lightning and other Lightning based Monsters.
      • Both of you brought it up so I'll address it. The Probability Manipulation comes from multiple factors. Super Luck boosts drop rates, status/skill proc rates, critical hit rate ( which increases Hunter's damage by from 1.2x - 1.4 times depending on the skills ) and so on ( too many to list off the top of my head).
      • Same range, Hunter can still do everything he needs to even if she starts flying around (being a big target only helps).
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    • Oh yeah. Lil mess up on my part. There are Monsters out there that can resist the Flashbangs by adapting to it or by having their own flashbang that they set off often.

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    • And what if she doesn't look to the flashbangs? Also, aren't this weapons? Can't she just blow/dodge it before it reaches her?

      Not really helpful then, he needs to hit her first.

      Not exactly, if she becomes faster than him then hitting her will be more difficult. And Teleporting will be a problem for the Hunter.

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      • That normally would work however the Hunter's skill covers that as he would be very clever and adaptive with how he would use his abilities like against every Monster he has gone up against. They're a tool that is a flashing light so you can imagine how fast it is moving.
      • No? A lot of those abilities are passive, hitting only affects his Critical hit rate which he has the range to do so.
      • The Hunter has a lot of experience with opponents that are faster than him. Teleportation will be an issue at first but the longer the fight goes on the more likely it is for The Hunter to find a way around it (funnily enough if this was one of Hunter's later keys he would have a lot of experience with it. )
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    • 1. Celistia's skill also covers every kind of situation and she is adaptive about them too. Do you really want to argue about skill tho?

      2. And most of them doesn't really work, just the critical hit rate which he needs to hit first. Which are the weapons that can reach her at that distance?

      3. Even if Hunter finds a way around it, Celistia has already fight againts people who has way around it, in fact, againts someone who has counter to every single ability she had.

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    • A counter or outright resists all of her Hax? Because the Hunter does the Latter.

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    • A counter to everything, and Hunter doesn't resist Analytical Prediction nor Telportation (but it's not like you can resist Teleportation)

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    • Aside from those, her other powers don't work. He has the same range so she can't snipe him without getting sniped, especially since she's a bigger target than he is. He has the AP, Dura and Versatility advantage. Her only advantage is Skill and Teleportation. That's it.

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    • She can snipe without getting sniped, that's part of the point of her Teleportation, attack and then teleporting to another place and attack from there too. She also has the adventage that she can predict Hunter with her Analytical Prediction.

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    • I was asked to confirm things. Here I am. confirming. 

      I don't know what, but I'm definitely doing it. 

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    • He's eventually gonna see a pattern in her Teleportation, so how fast can spam Teleports?

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    • Gonna say that I'm gonna be busy for a bit so y'all have fun. I'mma just go with Hunter FRA unless there is a very solid way for Cel to win.

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    • She thinks and teleports, thinks again and teleports again.

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    • Overlord775 wrote:

      @Josh

      Very intelligent monsters that very conviniently decide to fight melee

      also, none of those beside the AP, the status and stat amp are even helpful here

      Not all monsters fight melee. Most need to be forced to do so. See: Bazelgeuse, Paolumu, etc. If a monster has another option, it will generally take it. 

      probability can't be argued, I dunno where people get this from, it's just like "get better carves from killing this thing". They technically have it, it's pretty shit tier. It can affect things like do more damage as well, but it isn't like passively making him win. 

      Sound and Light are absolutely correct, they just deafen/blind/incapacitate enemies who see them. Like a flashbang but amped up times ten thousand. Sound is particularly good since it works even through solid objects, like monsters will be in underground caves and still be fucked up by it. So I'd argue that you'd need a good feat of sound manip to resist.

      Physics Manip IIRC does work like that but I wouldn't argue that as a cornerstone debating point.

      Damage Reduction is... well. damage reduction. 

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    • So she can rapid fire spam it? No Cooldown rate or anything? What's the Range on her Teleportation?

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote: So she can rapid fire spam it? No Cooldown rate or anything? What's the Range on her Teleportation?

      She rapid fire spams it, that was literlly her whole strategy againts Lisesharte and Krulcifer. No, 0 cooldown. About the range, like something over 100 meters.

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    • How do you know that the Hunter won't just outlast her with his ridiculous amount of stamina?

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    • How good is his stamina?

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      How good is his stamina?

      Dude flies (via Wingdrake) over a continent in a fairly short timeframe with basically no trouble so

      not bad

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    • Can she teleport and attack at the same time? If not, then he might catch her while she's trying to attack after Teleporting. Especially if he grapples her mech during an attack with his Class 100 Lifting Strength.

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    • He has Very High stamina for being able to fight for days on end.

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    • @Soul

      It's not even a mech, it's actually more like armor

      and why would she even teleport that close to him ?

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    • In case she tries a melee attack? I know next to nothing about her aside from what her profile says.

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    • I mean, Celis can do this:

      The moment when she set up <Seven Heads>, Celis moved.
      With the minimum movement, she threw three Daggers at <Tiamat>. Almost at the same time, the seven halos wrapped <Lindworm> and it disappeared from where it was.
      “Don't tell me this is──!?”
      “It's over. Scarlet War Princess.”
      The moment when Lisha activated her barrier to defend against the daggers, Celis launched an attack from Lisha's rear and smashed <Tiamat>'s propulsion device.
      “Guh……!? So, this is──!”
      “Yes. A concerted attack by Celis-neesama alone. It's a technique that we call “Heavy Strike”.”
      To the mutter of Lisha, whose armor was smashed, Sania revealed a smile.
      A simultaneous attack from multiple directions would eventually overwhelm an opponent.
      With <Lindworm>'s <Divine Gate>, she was able to pull it off with perfect timing.
      The female students of the audience raised cheers at the special move only possible through concentration and technique, that Celis possessed, and the Divine Raiment's ability.

      Will this help?

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    • Also, I'm doubtful that the Hunter can really grap her, since, you know, she has a forcefield, so Hunter just trying to grapple her won't bypass it.

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    • How strong is the forcefield?

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    • Somewhat stronger than her Drag-Ride.

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    • By what, like 1.5 times or so? Because he does have the AP advantage.

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    • Not by so much tho. Celis scales far above Krulcifer who one-shot Greifer who's vastly above the Triad who are above baseline already.

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    • She's listed as baseline in the OP though. What gives?

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    • She's listed as baseline because she doesn't have a calc.

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    • Oh. Anyway, how many hits can her shield take before breaking? Because there's no way she can dodge everything and outlast him.

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    • It's way easier to break those by giving a single very strong hit than many normal ones. Otherwise, Lisesharte and her 16 Legion would be breaking lots of barriers.

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    • Oh, OK then. If he manages to hit her with a Demondrug enhanced hit, her shield will shatter like glass. Does it recharge after awhile or mid battle? Because that's definitely an issue.

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    • Once destroyed, she just needs to think on having the Force Core use its energy on it again to recreate it. Basically, it breaks, she thinks to have it back, she has it back.

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    • How many times can she do that? This is starting to sound more like a stamina battle.

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    • Like, until her stamina runs out? As long as she can think, she'll be able to do so.

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    • Does the Force Core ever run out of power? Seriously, I'm concerned this might turn into a who can last longer type of battle.

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    • Literally the only time on the whole series a Force Core ran out was during Fugil's final battle, and it only ran out after he had been using Ouroboros for like 2 weeks LOL.

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    • OK. How long can Celistia last? How long does it take her to get tired? Because like I said earlier, The Hunter can fight for days on end with no stamina loss.

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    • Idk, Hunter has more stamina, but Celis will beat him before that becomes an issue.

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    • Not likely, Hunter has many healing items, an AP advantage, and damage reduction, this combined with stealth, speed amps, and the Hunter’s usual reliance on avoiding things should let him dodge. If she starts in melee (she might as the hunter just seems to be a normal man in armor, doesn’t seem very threatening to someone from her setting so why would she think to waste the energy blasting him?)

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    • I don't think she will. He can use multiple different amps at the same time to increase his stats by 2x, maybe more. He will eventually figure out that she can spam teleport like a mad lad, and probably figure out a way to trick her into it. Like a Shock Trap into a pile of Barrel Bombs or something. Or somehow figure out a way to get real close and damn near One-Shot her while he's amped. And he can track her for kilometers with the Scoutflies along with Extrasensory Perception and Enhanced Senses, so she can't get the drop on him.

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    • The healing items doesn't really work, Celistia has defeated opponents with High-Mid regen, so unless Hunter's healing items work on that scale then they won't be that useful.

      Celistia has Break Purge to increase her speed and attack (iirc it was something like 2x too).

      Hunter trying to dodge isn't gonna work, Celistia has fought Lux and actually gives him problems to dodge and even can attack him while others can't. And I doubt a lot that Hunter is comparable to Lux in dodging skills.

      Everyone on Celistia's setting are just people with armors, she will definitely do that againts him.

      Figuring a way to trick her for the Teleport isn't going to help that much, that was a plan that Philuffy made by predicting her movements, and Philuffy was the one who get attacked instead.

      I don't doubt he can track her, just that is not that game changing. And little reminder that she can keep nuking, something that Hunter won't be capable of dodging.

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    • How does she negate his healing? Are there any human sized 8-B that she dealt with before? Why wouldn’t Hunter be able to dodge when he has speed amps and is an experienced dodger himself? Dodging skill isn’t some linear quantifiable thing. What was the Philuffy situation? Hunter should more then match her in cqc due to his smaller size and stat advantage along with good skill and experience.

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    • Did she completely Vaporize the guy with Mid-High? How did she get past that?

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    • She didn't negate it, she just destroyed it beyond she can heal.

      Yes, Sacred Eclipse is an human sized 8-B that she faced.

      Hunter wouldn't be able to dodge because, 1) Celistia also has speed amps 2) Because Lux is also an experienced dodger. Except that dodging can be quantifiable by how much things you dodged and how did you did it.

      Here is an example of Philuffy's situation:

      Clouds of dust and soil rolled up from the explosion's impact, and at the same time Typhon's shoulders, arms, and back fired out countless Pile Anchors. Inside the smoke where one's sight was limited such that they should be unable to see even an inch ahead, Celis deflected all the Pile Anchors with accurate lance handling.
      But, Philuffy also closed the distance by kicking on the ground and visited a fist using Typhon's powerful arm on Celis.
      Her frame's joints twisted and a sure kill barrage of fists was unleashed at high speed. Celis dodged or evaded by running to the sky. Typhon chased her using its terrifying leaping power and unleashed a spinning kick after a feinted straight punch.
      Furthermore she fired multiple Pile Anchors to the ground. They pulled on Typhon like rope with a claw attached, changing its orbit midair and evaded Lindworm's counterattack.
      Typhon landed down on the practice ground at high speed, shook off the opponent's aim with circling trajectory, dashed to beneath Celis, fired countless Pile Anchors once more, and sniped at Lindworm.
      Philuffy casually caught the three Daggers that were thrown from the air as counterattack, she then turned around her body from side to side and threw them back several times faster. Celis who predicted that circled to Typhoon's back instantly using Divine Gate. This time she took distance to be able to dodge Philuffy's kick and unleashed a thrust that was laced with electricity. But, Philuffy too seemed to know it. She jumped forward to dodge, twisted her body and faced towards Celis, then midair she fired several more Pile Anchors.
      Celis slipped through that attack that aimed to hold her back and seize her, and pursued with a lance attack.
      Philuffy seemed to perceive reflexively that she couldn't dodge it. She met Celis with her fastest forward charge.
      Fist and lance's tip collided, and intense sparks and impact burst out.

      And little after that Philuffy was defeated.

      Celistia could match Mishis who has hundreds of years of fighting experience and that also was much more skilled than her.

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    • I know this is later on but I'm gonna bring it up anyway. The Hunter matched and surpassed Fatalis, a dragon smarter and more skilled than any other creature alive at this point in time who has been doing this for centuries.

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    • Fatalis doesn't sound more skilled than Mishis at all. She learned counters to every possible Drag-Ride technique and battle style in the verse, being trained in a way to counter anything any Drag-Knight can do, and has won every single battle she has had over the last centuries.

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    • Yeah. That's Fatalis in a nutshell.

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    • Then that thing has Composite Human levels of skill? Because Mishis is that, and actually more, because she outskills people with feats that CH wouldn't be capable of doing.

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    • It would definitely make CH look like a bitch, yes.

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    • Then which are the feats of the people that Fatalis outskills? I have tons of feats that Mishis outskills. (We've entered the skill debate people)

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    • It out skills everyone in the verse except for the Hunter. You know, the person who killed it? Who then fought the White Fatalis which is even Older, Stronger and Smarter than the Base Fatalis. This is why I didn't want to bring it up since it's at the end of the game.

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    • Yeah, yeah, but that doesn't really tell me about their feats, Mishis does that too, aside from some people but they are other extremely skilled people. So that just happened on his last key? I don't think we can use that feat then, in this key was the one in which Celistia fought (and even defeated) Mishis.

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    • The Hunter FRA

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    • Are we giving FRAs already, pretty sure we are still on the debate stage of the match.

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    • Not voting myself but I think it's fine to vote, frankly. Information has been handed out on both sides, now it's just down to who is more skilled which is subjective after a certain point. Voting at this juncture is fine. 

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    • Don't know who else is voting (since there's various walls of texts) but DeathNoodles, so...

      The Hunter - 1 (DeathNoodles)

      Celistia Ralgris - 0 ()

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    • I vote Celistia

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    • I think I forgot to say I vote Celistia, so it's more like:

      The Hunter - 2 (JoshSSJGod, DeathNoodles)

      Celistia - 2 (Ionlisite, Overlord775)

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    • BUMP

      5 MORE VOTES LEFT FOR ALL

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    • eh

      Hunter FRA, I think it's reasonable enough lads

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    • >No one has provided feats for the people Fatalis outskills yet

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    • I'm voting Hunter FRA.

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    • >People just FRA without answering my question

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    • Well, like I said, I personally believe skill is incredibly arbitrary after a point. 

      Fodder monsters include 8-Bs capable of dive bombing from low-orbit with accuracy enough to skim the ground at high speeds and ram Hunters. Such low tier Hunters can grapple onto a moving creature far faster than them, shoot them in the face with all of their slinger ammo, then attempt to decapitate them before jumping off, stabbing at them with their weapon and using the leverage to propel themselves into the air and then pierce the monster's spine on the way back down.

      After a certain point, skill is useless since it doesn't convert into set units. So I'm happy to vote as of right now if there's no more arguments outside of skill to be made. 

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    • Oh yeah, more arguments, which is the counter the Hunter has to Teleport and Starlight Zero (the nuke)?

      Skill is not useless to a certain point, specially if you have superior skill to circunvent the difference in AP. The best things in that list of skill feats are the bombing and the grapple in people far faster than them, the bombing is easily done by Krulcifer and in much better ways as she can hit people with extremely precision even while moving in circles and like againts Iblis which she had to face without seeing him. And the thing with the far faster opponent is literally made by anyone skilled enough in Bahamut. The second part after grappling them is literally basic things, and if you say they can do it before the monster can defend againts the Hunter then they aren't far faster than him.

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    • > basic things

      yeah so that's just wrong, hence my point about skill being subjective

      The Hunter doesn't exactly need to counter everything. Just enough that they can be marked as superior. Believe that was noted somewhere above. 

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    • Shooting someone in the face is not difficult, specially because these monsters are big. Once you are above it, it isn't difficult to decapitate something if you have something like a knife or a sword, etc. And if we go saying those aren't basic things, then what I posted about Celistia above is impressive.

      Someone that could actually counter everything Celistia has still lost to her, so yes, he pretty much needs to be more skilled than her (guess what? he isn't).

      Hunter still doesn't counter Teleportation nor the nuke explosion nor Analytical Prediction.

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    • Wait hold on. We including Fatalis in this now? If so then we can include Hunter's Soul Destruction.

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    • No, Fatalis isn't included because Hunter only fought Fatalis at the end, which isn't covered on this key.

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    • Shooting Celestia’s mech shouldn’t be difficult for the same reason as the Monsters. Also about dodging, there are many things that could influence how good a dodging feat is. The size of the opponent, how many shots, how often you were attacked, how much room you had to dodge, how many angles of attack there were...etc. Hunter constantly deals with giant relentless monsters comparble to him in skill coming at him, sometimes even multiple. He should be able to dodge some girl blasting at him once he amps and stealth’s, she won’t even know where to teleport or shoot once he stealths anyway. He really doesn’t need to counter teleportation anyway as that won’t give her the edge over his abilities at all.

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    • Shooting Celistia will be much more difficult due to Telportation and forcefields, he won't be breaking them with regular attacks. Yeah, that dodging still isn't comparable to the very first Lux's dodging feat. Except that Celistia isn't a monster and she is more skilled than him (we can keep debating this if you want), the only key I could say that Hunter has that is more skilled than Celistia is the one that defeated Fatalis, and she still is experienced in fighting opponents more skilled than her. Hunter amping won't be much problm since Celistia can amp too and his stealth doesn't work if your opponent just nukes the battlefield, btw, Celistia has fought againts invisible opponents that she can't see and still win, so the stealth is not really a problem. It would give her an edge about dodging his attacks and launching her attacks from different directions.

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    • The experience gap between the hunter keys isn’t exactly massive so even by you admitsion the skill gap isn’t massive. How did she get around stealth before? Hunter could easily stall her stamina out due to rations and dash drugs so her dodging wouldn’t help. What is Celestia’s stamina (the pilot not the mech we went over that.) also what was her first move against Sacred eclipse?

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    • Experience =/= skill, that the experience gap isn't that much doesn't mean that he is similar to latter key since he doesn't have that feat. The invisible Abyss were deal with by sensing their movement and predicting their actions. I don't see how rations would stop her from dodging at all. Celistia's stamina is really high. Why her first move againts Sacred Eclipse is relevant? Teleportation and paralysis btw.

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    • JoshSSJGod wrote:
      Wait hold on. We including Fatalis in this now? If so then we can include Hunter's Soul Destruction.

      I've been told by Shiro that Alatreon also offered soulhax with their weapons, though I can't confirm. 

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    • Why wouldn’t it be similar, you have no real proof that his skill increased adsurdly in only a few months. Monsters can’t sense him through stealth and they have great senses, even some of the more intelligent ones can’t.

      How does paralysis work? If it is melee or aimed then she can’t reliably do it due to stealth,

      how much is the nuke AOE

      Her first move against Sacred Eclipse might matter depending if she is the only human sized opponent she faced. If not then we can skip the point.

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    • And you have no proof that it did either, he didn't have the feat so he doesn't scale to it, the difference between the First 8-B key Celistia and Second 8-B key Celistia is less than some months and the increase in skill is massive.

      It is melee and ranged, she can do it both ways.

      The nuke is 300 meters in radius iirc.

      Sacred Eclipse is not the only one, basically everyone she fights are humans with armors.

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    • If we have no proof for either then we should go with the negative claim. That is how both this wiki and logic tends to go.

      Whose speed is this equalized to? The hunter should be able to get out of the way fast enough if she nukes from far away if it is equalized to his speed as he scales at least to 500m/s if not (1500m/s) due to this calc. This isn’t even getting into amps and the fact that she likely won’t be hitting him directly due to stealth.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:ShiroyashaGinSan/Monster_Hunter:_Rathalos_goes_fast_%26_Astalos_goes_faster

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    • He still doesn't have the feat, we can't use later feats to scale to previous keys. The prove is he couldn't defeat Fatalis before (I guess you won't argue that with this key he would be capable of defeating Fatalis) and in that key he can.

      I guess it is equalized to the slowest character, I don't think we make the slowest character faster just to fight againts the other. Celistia also have amps, so Hunter's amps don't help that much, and as I already said stealth is not a problem for her.

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    • But it wasn’t a massive time gap, you need proof that the skill difference between the hunter is as large as you say it is.

      How fast is Celestia if we scale it to her speed?

      Also you haven’t given a good argument for her getting around his stealth, which monsters with advanced senses can’t sense, so she needs to rely on predicting someone with a very different combat background then her and likely most people she fights.

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    • Also I checked the site’s VS rules and it doesn’t mention which speed to equalize it to, so it is likely up to the thread maker’s choice.

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    • He can't defeat Fatalis on this key, he can on his last key. That, I already proved my point, we can't use feats of higher keys in lower keys because we are backscaling from a higher key. Its like me saying Buu Saga Goku can resist Time Stop because Goku Super can resist Time Stop.

      Like superior to baseline supersonic.

      She can predict your moves by something as basic as your breathing, and having different combat background doesn't change anything, where did you get that? My main argument is that she can predict him, she literally just needs his breathing, nothing more and she can nuke as I already said.

      It's most likely equalized to the slower character I guess.

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    • It was only a short amount of time though. Unlike Goku there was not major transformation and the power gap is through better armor, not necessarily pure training and combat experience. So your analogy sucks a lot.

      She won’t be able to predict him through stealth if she needs to sense something like breathing. The combat background will help as she hasn’t dealt with anyone with Hunter’s experiences before so predicting him will likely be harder.

      Equalized to the lower character because of what?

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    • Lux is a better analogue then. He went from no having any idea about how Over Limit was made to perfectly mastering it less than 3 days later. Time spam isn't really relevant, what's relevant is that you can's backscale feats from a totally different key to this.

      She hasn't dealt with anyone with Hunter's experiences? So Mishis's countless battles across many centuries facing thousands of different opponents is not enough to match Hunter to you? Besides, she can predict Hunter before he uses his stealth, or alternatively, just nuke the whole place.

      Because the faster character can actually move at the speed of the slowest, but not vice versa?

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    • How strong even is the nuke?

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote: How strong even is the nuke?

      Enough to one-shot herself (yes, that's literally stated).

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    • Why would the experience/skill over time be the same to the Hunter as to Lux? He has no feats of gaining skills in an instant. Also even if we assume that the Hunter’s skill growth scales to someone from an entirely different setting, why would mastering one technique of unconfirmed complexity scale to a massive skill gap you assume exists?

      She hasn’t dealt with someone with Hunter’s experiences yes. Mishi has a lot of experience but not the ones Hunter has. Can you point me to anyone that she fought who has dealt with the Hunter’s lifestyle?

      You could also counter with slowing the faster character as being an unfair nerf. That is why we should ask staff or the thread maker.

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    • So, 7.5x stronger than herself? Which would be 3.75x Stronger than The Hunter. 1.875x if he amped himself beforehand. So not enough to One-Shot him. How many times can she do it?

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    • 00potato wrote:

      Why would the experience/skill over time be the same to the Hunter as to Lux? He has no feats of gaining skills in an instant. Also even if we assume that the Hunter’s skill growth scales to someone from an entirely different setting, why would mastering one technique of unconfirmed complexity scale to a massive skill gap you assume exists?

      I'm not saying he scales to Lux because he simply doesn't at all. Lux also didn't have any feats of gaining skill between no knowing how to use Over Limit to mastering btw, so that argument gets covered by my analogue. I'm not assuming a massive skill exists, I'm saying YOU CAN'T DOWNSCALE FEATS FROM LATER KEYS TO EARLIER ONES.

      00potato wrote:

      Can you point me to anyone that she fought who has dealt with the Hunter’s lifestyle?

      Dragon Marauders such as Drakken who spent their whole lifespan fighting against all types of Abyss to get into the Ruins and steal their treasures? These people are used to fighting all kinds of monsters with many different abilities and sizes on a daily basis.

      00potato wrote: You could also counter with slowing the faster character as being an unfair nerf. That is why we should ask staff or the thread maker.

      Do it then.

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote: So, 7.5x stronger than herself? Which would be 3.75x Stronger than The Hunter. 1.875x if he amped himself beforehand. So not enough to One-Shot him. How many times can she do it?

      Any amount of times she wants? As long as the Force Core has energy, she should be able to do it again.

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    • But it wasn’t a long gap of time between the two keys, and there was no massive skill boost in one time, so you would need proof that his skill wouldn’t backscale.

      I will ask staff about the rules.

      Did her predictions work perfectly on Drakken?

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    • I'll use the Lux example again. He literally went from not knowing how a technique even works to mastering it in 3 days. No skill boost, no long gap of time. Yet, I can't scale this to the previous key despite this, since backscaling feats from a later key to a earlier one can't be done.

      Yes? Why wouldn't her predictions work on her?

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    • Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale. Remember our keys aren’t part of the media we scale, they are done for the sake of fair debate. Keys aren’t entirely different characters, just different measures of stats.

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    • 00potato wrote: Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale.

      No, you can't backscale feats from one key to the other.

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    • Now you are just repeating yourself, I just explain why that is wrong. If you keep repeating something I explained then you might as well concede.

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    • I'm repeating myself because you're doing so too. You keep insisting that you can backscales feats from different keys, when that's not the case at all.

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    • 00potato wrote: Why? It was only three days and he mastered one skill. So yes you can backscale. Remember our keys aren’t part of the media we scale, they are done for the sake of fair debate. Keys aren’t entirely different characters, just different measures of stats.

      Read what I said about keys. You treat them like different characters that can’t scale to each other but they aren’t. I wasn’t just repeating myself, I was adding arguments regarding your bit about keys.

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    • That literally doesn't change my point at all. A character gets separated by keys because they aren't the same on one than on another. They get abilities, AP, experience, literally any of that can justify a new key. You can't just downscale a character from something they did on a latter to their earlier self because they are the same character, since if they were literally identical, they wouldn't be a need for different keys on the first place. Just because I can calc square roots one day doesn't mean I could the day before.

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    • Yes but the difference isn’t always uniform. Some characters might have keys because of a large time skip. The Hunter has a very small time skip and his weapons and armor are what causes the tier jump and the need for a new key. There is no reason not to backscale skill for this reason as no large skill jump exists between the keys. Since you admitted a later Hunter can succeed Celistia in skill then one from not that far ago should match her.

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    • I didn't admit a later Hunter can succeed Celistia at all, I said he still doesn't reach Mishis even with Fatalis' feats (and btw, you never provided feats of the people Fatalis outskills) but that that was irrelevant because he doesn't have that feat on this key to begin with.

      Celistia also has very small time skips for her keys, there's literally 1 day between her 1st 8-B key and the second one, and then 2 weeks to the 8-A one, but that doesn't mean I can bring stuff she did on her 8-A key to this argument, because as far as this version of Celis is concerned, she hasn't done those feats yet.

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    • Ionliosite wrote: Shooting Celistia will be much more difficult due to Telportation and forcefields, he won't be breaking them with regular attacks. Yeah, that dodging still isn't comparable to the very first Lux's dodging feat. Except that Celistia isn't a monster and she is more skilled than him (we can keep debating this if you want), the only key I could say that Hunter has that is more skilled than Celistia is the one that defeated FatalisItalic text, and she still is experienced in fighting opponents more skilled than her. Hunter amping won't be much problm since Celistia can amp too and his stealth doesn't work if your opponent just nukes the battlefield, btw, Celistia has fought againts invisible opponents that she can't see and still win, so the stealth is not really a problem. It would give her an edge about dodging his attacks and launching her attacks from different directions.

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    • Also is there any evidence of a major skill gap between Celisita’s keys?

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    • I said "I could say", but I can't be sure of how skilled that key without knowing the feats of the people Fatalis outskills, because what you mentioned Mishis can do it and better.

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    • Vote for Celisia since her Analitycal Prediction, Teleport, Forcefields and Range Spam of attacks make a really good combo which I think will grant her the win in this match.

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    • Hunter FRA.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: Hunter FRA.

      Read the thread before voting. Have you missed the huge discussion we had above?

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    • He can vote if he wants, this thread has been going on forever now.

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    • It hasn't been going for "forever", it barely started 2 days ago.

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    • It feels like forever. Like Bambu said earlier in the thread, people can start voting if they want to. You didn't say that to Zaratthrustra.

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    • Because he actually gave reasons instead of FRAing. That shows he actually read.

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    • FRA is allowed. It isn't a perfect system, but it's allowed. 

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    • That's true, but when the arguments FRAed are being disputed, it's better to give more concrete reasons to vote.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      That's true, but when the arguments FRAed are being disputed, it's better to give more concrete reasons to vote.

      It factually isn't when your reasons are being disputed as well. Saying the disputed reasons adds no more legitimacy to the vote in the eyes of the wiki.

      Whether you say "FRA" or "FRA because of the things they said above" doesn't add any qualitative discussion to the fight. Both votes are equally as legitimate.

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      That's true, but when the arguments FRAed are being disputed, it's better to give more concrete reasons to vote.

      It factually isn't when your reasons are being disputed as well. Saying the disputed reasons adds no more legitimacy to the vote in the eyes of the wiki.

      That's literally what I just said tho.

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    • Unless we assume you're a hypocrite, and you do not give the same criticisms to people voting in favor of your characters as those on the other side, then no, you clearly didn't mean that. Because your guy didn't give "more concrete reasons to vote". He just said "FRA for the things he said". My point is that you can no more easily disregard Zamasu than you can Zarat. 

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    • That's literally what I'm doing tho. Zara's vote and Zamasu's vote are equally valid, that's part of the rules of the wiki.

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    • All right, I've read both sides, And I think Celestia wins. So, Celstia FRA. Also, you can't back scale to feats from anouther Key.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      That's literally what I'm doing tho. Zara's vote and Zamasu's vote are equally valid, that's part of the rules of the wiki.

      That's the point, yes

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    • Bambu, I think the problem was that you think I was trying to invalidate Zamasu's vote, when I really wasn't, I just told him to read the thread, something I know Zara did because he gave arguments already mentioned on the discussion above. If Zamasu indeed read the thread and then just decided to FRA, then I'll apologize.

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    • The Hunter - 5 (JoshSSJGod, DeathNoodles, XSOULOFCINDERX, Mr. Bambu, Zamasu Chan)

      Celistia Ralgris - 4 (Ionliosite, Overlord775, Zaratthustra, Necromercer)

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    • Shouldn’t I be under the Hunter votes. I will vote him.

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    • Okay

      1 TO 3 MORE

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    • Overlord775
      Overlord775 removed this reply because:
      e
      18:54, January 15, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Did people cover how The Hunter gets past Passive Barrier Jitsu?

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    • Either strength Amps or he just stalls out her stamina as he can recover any time.

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    • Necromercer wrote:
      All right, I've read both sides, And I think Celestia wins. So, Celstia FRA. Also, you can't back scale to feats from anouther Key.

      Hmm, what's the feat that's being backscaled?

      (Just joined the thread)

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    • Hunter defeated Fatalis, who outskills basically most of the verse, on his last key, and they are saying that since there's no much time between them, he should be roughly comparable to his later self even now.

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    • Ion said that a later key hunter might match Celestia’s skill. I said that they should be close as the skill gap between Hunter’s keys isn’t very large as the time gap is short and their is no evidence of a major skill boost at any moment.

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    • 00potato wrote:

      Ion said that a later key hunter might match Celestia’s skill.

      Again, I said that only applies if I could actually KNOW what are the feats Fatalis outskills.

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    • How big is the time difference?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote: How big is the time difference?

      I don’t really know, There isn’t any statements from what I remember, so I would assume only a month or two.

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    • COMPLETELY not backscalable then.

      I would have been fine if it was something like a couple of days. But in a month there can be serious growth.

      Besides doesn't he go from 8-B to 5-A in that "month"?

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    • He might, the stat difference is just because of different armor and weapons. He doesn’t do anything that new in that time, just fighting different monsters. A few more months of experience don’t exactly make a massive skill gap especially when that experience isn’t very different from the one before.

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    • A few months of experience can do a TON of difference. That's far too long of a time gap to backscale. 

      We never do that, even for things like AP and Speed, we don't backscale unless it's very reasonable. Skill is no exception. And "a few months difference" isn't a reasonable time gap, sorry. 

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    • It would be reasonable as he hasn’t had any experiences far removed from what he dealt with in his first key, just stronger monsters that require better armor usually.

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    • People get better over time normally.

      If i play basket for a year. Doesn't mean that im playing against NBA people by the end of it, im still playing against average dudes, i still get better over time. 

      Same here, he doesn't need to fight multiversal gods for us to assume a growth of skill. Even doing what he normally does, for longer develops skill, especially when they get continuously stronger.

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    • Not by much, you really wouldn’t get better if you fight what is functionally similar or identical opponents repeatedly. The only exception is if the Hunter would restrict himself to make a better challenge. You are also exaggerating my point by a lot for some reason.

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    • You don't need to do anything different to get better. You get better at what you're doing the more you do it. The whole point behind martial arts, experience, sports etc. 

      Again the back scaling is wrong there is too much of a time gap to even assume something like that.

      I went from trash to the best of my group back in my basket days, i didn't do anything besides just play with the same ppl every day. I still got much better in a couple of months.

      Or another example would be Ikki, the skill memelord himself, he went from average dude, to a skill meme from doing the same thing, basically watching others train and fight dojos.

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    • Anyway i said what i had to say on this point. Tell me if ya need me again.

      Cha.

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    • Celestia FRA

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    • Hunter FRA, though it’s close and I may switch later.

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    • Does anyone know the votes 

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    • Frankly the Hunter doesn't need to backscale skill, they can fight incredibly intelligent and skilled monsters long before fatalis so I don't really understand the hold up here

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    • Its Hunter: 6

      Celestia: 5

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    • The Hunter - 6 (JoshSSJGod, 00potato, DeathNoodles, XSOULOFCINDERX, Mr. Bambu, Zamasu Chan, Moritzva)

      Celistia Ralgris - 5 (Ionliosite, Overlord775, Zaratthustra, Necromercer, Schnee One)

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    • Wait nvm. Recounted, Hunter has 7 votes my bad.

      1.Myself

      2.00potato

      3.DeathNoodles

      4.SoulOfCinder

      5.Mr.Bambu

      6.Zamasu

      7.Moritzva

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote: Frankly the Hunter doesn't need to backscale skill, they can fight incredibly intelligent and skilled monsters long before fatalis so I don't really understand the hold up here

      None of them is nearly as skilled as the people Celistia fights

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    • I guess GP has commenced with Moritzva's vote 6 hours ago

      Iconclusive with this Vote count though

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    • But Ion, if I then say, "Celistia's skill feats aren't as good as Hunter's", that's still equally as accurate as your statement, since skill is subjective

      also yeah this is looking like forced incon on the horizon

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    • Skill isn't subjective tho.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      Skill isn't subjective tho.

      When you find me a unit of measurement that can reliably tell me the skill of any given character I will agree. 

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    • Mr. Bambu wrote:

      Ionliosite wrote:
      Skill isn't subjective tho.

      When you find me a unit of measurement that can reliably tell me the skill of any given character I will agree. 

      Going by that logic, hax is subjective, and yet it's still a very important part of this site.

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    • Hax isn't. A lot of it is just measured in tiers, number of people affected, or how many higher layers it can affect (see: 4-D, 5-D, 6-D, and so on). 

      Skill cannot be measured in the same way, ergo arguing and bickering over which of two vastly superhuman skill feats is better is pointless unless they can be easily translated (example: character A has trained for ten million years, character B has trained for the lifespan of eight thousand universes, the latter is quantifiably better)

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    • Yeah it is. We made up a way to measure some but mostly it is unquantifiable, even more so in the case of skill.

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    • And on that line, training for 10 million years isn't automatically better than training for 10, since what they're training, what they do on their training, and what results they get from said training doesn't always equate to the time trained. There's a reason you can get massive skill jumps on a month while characters who just go around on perfectly mundane training for centuries.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      And on that line, training for 10 million years isn't automatically better than training for 10, since what they're training, what they do on their training, and what results they get from said training doesn't always equate to the time trained. There's a reason you can get massive skill jumps on a month while characters who just go around on perfectly mundane training for centuries.

      I agree. Hence subjectivism. Hence why arguing over it is pointless. Nothing translates perfectly. 

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    • You don't agree if you think that's subjective. I literally gave an example of why it wasn't.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      You don't agree if you think that's subjective. I literally gave an example of why it wasn't.

      I do agree insofar as "And on that line, training for 10 million years isn't automatically better than training for 10, since what they're training, what they do on their training, and what results they get from said training doesn't always equate to the time trained", which is ostensibly your core argument. It's subjective in the sense that it depends on the individual to consider how useful they feel one training type is over the other, or how much time weighs into it, etc. You didn't disprove subjectivism in skill. 

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    • How is that an example? That exemplifies the uncertainty and subjectiveness

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    • It's an example because it proves just saying "he trained for x amount time" isn't enough, since the results of said trainings don't equate to the amount of time trained.

      Mr. Bambu wrote:

      It's subjective in the sense that it depends on the individual to consider how useful they feel one training type is over the other, or how much time weighs into it, etc.

      It doesn't depend on the individual, it depends on the results of what they do with their training. Just training boxing for 30 years won't be the same as being a master on jujitsu, MMA and aikido on 2 years. It's not because of time, but because of the results.

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    • why do you continue to prove my point and not realize it

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    • What do you mean?

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    • I mean by saying your opinion on it without giving concrete reasoning for it is proving that this is subjective. It relies on your opinion. I disagree, so both of our interpretations are subjective. The results and their efficiency? Open to interpretation as to how that plays out here.

      All of this is purely opinion based, whereas hax has definitive numbers (optimally) that can be put towards it. 

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    • Man, saying that because two people disagree on something then that's subjective, is something that can be stretched to the whole "everything is subjective" logic. People having different opinions on a topic is something that applies to everything, after all.

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    • I'm saying that it's based on opinions because it is. Our two dissenting points of view, neither with the means to factually disprove the other, proves this is subjective. Because that's what subjective means. Based on opinion. It doesn't have concrete measurements. There's no part of a skill debate that isn't interpretation. 

      Ergo, it's a stupid argument. Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. 

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    • Yeah, that whole "everything is subjective" thing again. We might as well throw away the whole wiki since people disagree with us, and stop doing stupid things like matches because they have conflicting opinions and thus are subjective and irrelevant.

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    • How does it lead to everything is subjective? The point is that there are no factual means of disproving the opinion or any accurate form of measurement, making it subjective. Do you have a response or are you just gonna repeat yourself.

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    • @Ion That is a massive false equivalence.

      Tiering and Feats are objectively qualified through calculations, and statements and are accepted through CRTs

      Skill and what's more impressive is entirely subjectivecas what's quantifuable is much more difficult to pin point

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    • It leads to "everything is subjective" because people have different opinions on different things. Difference of perception itself is a part of human nature. Having conflicted opinions about something that doesn't mean it's stupid and irrelevant.

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    • Schnee One wrote:

      Tiering and Feats are objectively qualified through calculations, and statements and are accepted through CRTs

      Yeah, but people can disagree with the ratings. That's my whole point. Just because people have different opinions on a matter makes it stupid.

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    • The fact that opinions exist isn't the problem. The problem is when the thing is based only on opinions and interpretation. 

      You can have an opinion on Star Wars mindhax, it's still concretely quantifiable as quadrillions of minds or however many that buggery affects nowadays. You can have an opinion on the energy output of a gun, it's still quantifiable as in the hundreds to thousands of joules. 

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    • Disagreeing with quantifiable ratings is one thing, disagreeing with what makes a person more skilled almost never is

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    • So still 7-5 in favor of TH

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    • 11 hours of grace left, yeah.

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    • Ok, match was added as incon.

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    • I thought you couldn't add as an Incon until there's a three vote difference?

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    • The Hunter FRA

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      I thought you couldn't add as an Incon until there's a three vote difference?

      a 3 vote difference is for a win on either side tho, that litterally can't be an inconclusive match

      @Arcening

      Two days too late there pal

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    • Versus Thread Rules quite literally state that a 7-5 vote difference is invalid

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    • For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favor of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes. Some examples:

      • A final vote tally of 6-0 will be considered invalid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-0 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-5 will be considered invalid.

      This doesn't count for Inconclusive matches

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3760346?useskin=oasis

      So I ended up looking through the versus thread removal request and found a similar situation with another match (Its about halfway down)

      Apparently it stops being grace at 7-5

      So we never hit Grace, actually we hit grace with Arcs vote

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    • Overlord775 wrote:
      For a verdict, there must be at least seven votes in favor of one character/team, with a minimum difference of three votes. Some examples:
      • A final vote tally of 6-0 will be considered invalid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-0 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-4 will be considered valid.
      • A final vote tally of 7-5 will be considered invalid.

      This doesn't count for Inconclusive matches

      but this tho

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    • Schnee One
      Schnee One removed this reply because:
      16:20, January 20, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Hold on let me check something.

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    • Yeah I'm pretty sure that if it goes below that threshold it just goes out of grace, since it's no longer a valid vote count. It would kind of defeat the whole purpose of grace to just keep it going even if people manage to get some people to swap their votes within that final day.

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    • So....

      It's 8-5

      So I guess it's grace now?

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    • Matches that end grace on a 7-5 vote difference are considered to have ended on incon, that's literally the rule.

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    • Also, I just noticed, The Arcening's account was literaly created to comment here. Isn't that suspicious?

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    • It sure is

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    • Definitely, you should remove the vote unless he starts being active soon.

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    • Yeah that is suspicious

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    • Sorry about that Im kinda new here and I saw this when I looked at this wiki and got interested in it and when I saw you guys were at a halt and no one else was voting I decided to try and vote

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    • If you need to remove it thats ok

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    • And im probably not going to be active alot since Im usually doing something else in my free time so this is just one of the occasions

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    • ^Sorry about that, just seemed suspicious on our end

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    • Bump.

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    • So is it still 8-5

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    • I lost track.

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    • ZackMoon1234 wrote: So is it still 8-5

      00potato said the vote should be removed, and TheArcening said it was ok to remove it, so it's still 7-5.

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    • The Hunter FRA

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    • Ok, what's up with the FRA train? Celistia greatly outdoes the Hunter in ranged combact and could just spam from range, abuse the fact that the hunter can't fly and even just teleport away from attacks, or simply nuke the place. Exactly what does the Hunter do that I haven't already explained Celis can counter?

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    • The hunter FRA

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    • You're just doing this to annoy me, aren't you? Ignore my questions and just keep FRAing.

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    • My dude I dunno either character I dunno what you want from me

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    • So you don't know even KNOW who you are voting for?

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    • I mean eh. I sorta know about them. I'm not too familiar with them however. 

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    • Ah, well, that's ok. I'm just annoyed people started this FRA train days after grace ended for no apparent reason.

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    • Oh grace ended. Wish I knew that

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    • Jackythejack wrote: My dude I dunno either character I dunno what you want from me

      To read the reasoning I guess

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    • Schnee One wrote:

      Jackythejack wrote: My dude I dunno either character I dunno what you want from me

      To read the reasoning I guess

      Sorry man I dunno if I can do that it sounds like effort 

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    • Then don't make the effort to vote? Why vote for reasoning you haven't even read?

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    • It was a joke but okay

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    • ....Your vote was a joke?

      That was not a joke, I know how you type when posting a joke and that combined with the vote previously was not a joke.

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    • So is this finish

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    • It finished days ago.

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    • A FANDOM user
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