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  • Inspired by this thread here; https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3276215


    Table of Contents



    1.) The High Godly Regeneration.

    2.) The Negation of High Godly Regen, and Immortality Negation

    3.) Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation.

    4.) Short Summary.




    High Godly Regeneration




    The gods currently have Mid-Godly Regen based upon a Concept in which they embody. https://imgur.com/a/OlzCR

    Hades is the God of “The Underworld.” He is the god who embodies “The concept of the Afterlife". Once he was defeated we get confirmation that He dies, but also his “Underworld” dies with him. He then fades out of existence. https://i.imgur.com/undefined.png

    However, in a later continuation of the series We do seem him again. From Episode G Assassins https://imgur.com/a/sU0HhWM

     
    

    “Page 5

    Deathtoll: It started.

    DT: If we can say.

    DT: Is it time to pay for our sins? It is already too late to die.

    DT: Where do humans come from?

    DT: Where are they going?

    DT: How will they disappear?

    Pages 6-7

    DT: The death of humans will disappear.

    DT: From now on, the only world open to humans will be ...

    DT: ... absolute nothingness.

    Page 8

    DT: How long can you hold this?

    DT: I'm counting on you ... to produce the final moment.

    DT: Hades, emperor of darkness.

    Page 9

    Hades (?): How long ...

    Hades (?) ... can you handle it?

    Hades (?): From now on ...

    Hades (?): ... the collapse is destiny.

    Hades (?): I ...

    Pages 10-11

    Hades (?): ... tells you everything.

    Hades (?): It's destiny.” “Chapter 105: Chaos

    Page 1

    Aiolia: From the bottom of my troubled conscience ...

    Aiolia: ... I'm looking for answers.

    Aiolia: I know who I am but ...

    Aiolia: ... why is not it clear?

    Pages 2-3

    Aiolia: Where am I from?

    Aiolia: Where am I going?

    Aiolia: And what am I becoming?

    Aiolos: Yes ...

    Aiolos: Awaken ...

    Aiolos: And ...

    Pages 4-5

    Aiolos: ... so that you go back ...

    Aiolos: ... by my side ...

    Aiolos:. .. I will go so far as to destroy the entire universe.

    Pages 6-7

    Chaos Aiolia: Big brother ...

    Aiolos: Aiolia ...

    Aiolos: GENRÔMAJINKEN

    Pages 8-9

    DIRECT HIT

    Page 10

    Seiya: Ornaments of Gold Cloth Aiolia ...

    Seiya: ... are tinted a deep purple.

    Seiya: They pulsate like the blood flowing in the veins !!?

    Page 11

    Aiolia: It wakes up my Ninth Sense ...

    Aiolia: Is this compensation?

    Aiolia: The power of chaos.

    Pages 12-13

    Aiolia: The world will be tinged with absolute darkness.

    Pages 14-15

    Aiolia: LIGHTNING VOID

    Pages 16-17

    BLACK NUCLEUS COLLAPSE (obviously, it causes a black hole that allows resurrections and interdimensional trips).

    Pages 18-19

    CHAIN ​​DESTRUCTION

    DISAPPEARANCE OF THE WORLD OF DEATHS

    Deathtoll: It's happened so far ... That's good too ...

    Deathtoll: I have faith in the life force of the remaining world ...

    Deathtoll: Goodbye.

    Aiolos: Hin ... Hin ... Hinhin ...

    Page 20

    Aiolos: Everything ends ... Humans of the blue star ...

    Aiolos: Our star, dyed by the red of destruction and lamentations .. .

    Aiolos ... you devour all.”

    .
    


    From Chapter 105 (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1niThtl-IvWco2_LNah26_Rg4topTtgq_VVeIQCBryhA/mobilebasic Chapter 103 near the bottom, and Chapter 105)

    we know it was main timeline Hades. Main Timeline Hades appeared to hold off an attack from Zeus during an ongoing fight. Though, he does get overpowered.

    but my point is that Hades revived after the collapse of his Underworld, the concept he embodies, his realities and him along with those.

    Episode G Assassins takes place after the classic series. Hades revived along with his concept of the Underworld https://i.imgur.com/ff7q8Cl.jpg 


    Hades Appeared During a fight the Main Characters were having aganist Zeus, and during that fight Zeus used an ability that blew away the Underworld.


    We also have another instance of something similar happening though in a different canon part of the series. These are different characters, but they are Gods who “Embody” something and their “World” which is “The Concept they embody” does collapse, and they revive.

    Morpheus is the creator. He is the ruler of Morphia https://i.imgur.com/J1nTFlK.jpg

    He controls the dreams of Heroes, Kings, and Gods. https://i.imgur.com/vtHUtPq.jpg

    He was defeated by Pegasus Tenma using a God Cloth https://i.imgur.com/BOdfYJA.jpg

    And Morphia the place he rules over where he controls the concept he embodies Collapses as well after his defeat https://i.imgur.com/XPZWXKn.jpg

    Later he was seen revived soon after https://i.imgur.com/GIstLIa.jpg




    Regen Negation, and Immortality Negation (Types 3; 4; 6; 8; and 9)




    • The Weapons of the Gods, and other “Divine Weapons.” Have notable properties that negate regeneration, and immortalities in such a way that it permanently kills the god.
    • Zeus has the weapon known as “Keraunos.” This allowed him to have an advantage against the Titans. This weapon was that of lightning. Aiolia was able to permanently kill several Titans because he possessed the same weapon as Zeus. This was because Aiolia is the host body for Zeus. https://i.imgur.com/5MNT7bB.jpg https://i.imgur.com/hOrAc77.jpg


     
    

    P04-05

    Lightning Bolt!

    Zeus: Why did your younger brother ...

    Zeus: ... possessed the power of lightning?

    Zeus: And the weapon that allowed me to prevail during the fighting against the Titans ...

    Zeus: The Keraunos, whose privilege is reserved for me ...

    Zeus: The one who was able to use it was the Gold Saint Aiolia of Leo.

    Zeus: It's because this man ...

    P06-07

    Zeus: ... was born to allow the supreme god Zeus to descend on Earth.

    Zeus: A host of god.

    Zeus: The one you see here is Me, Zeus. Your brother has ...

    Zeus: ... forever gone.

    Zeus: The golden bow and arrow blessed by Athena are destroyed ...

    Zeus: ... and it is now impossible for you to destroy me while I have this new body.

    Zeus: You can not save this world, Athena, the humans, your comrades still well ...

    Zeus: ... your brother.

    Zeus: Die then without being able to do anything with it.

    Aiolos: Aiolia !! [1] [Very top of the page]

     
    




    Related Scans: https://i.imgur.com/ToAvI9n.jpg https://i.imgur.com/vvnVDYs.jpg

    • As you can see Hades was confident that he could kill Athena.
    • Athena herself also has a way to negate regeneration, and immortalities. For example, one of the most powerful beings in the verse Typhon had his “True Body” completely destroyed by Athena. When Typhon revived in a host body he through a tantrum because of this. This caused him to lose a significant portion of his power, and he needed to create a new “True Body.” https://i.imgur.com/MqodZUh.jpg


    ____



     Resistance to Regeneation Negation, and Immortality Negation.



    • As I outlined the “Possibility” of Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation. There is some gods whom may have shown resistance to such abilities Athena, as I outlined in the last paragraph above here in the last section, was able to completely destroy the “True Body” of Typhon which prevented it from returning.
    • This should scale to a form of Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation for Typhon, but this would also affect Hades.
    • ​​​​As I outlined Hades returning later in the series in the “High Godly Regeneration” section. This might end up scaling to “Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation” for Hades as well. Zeus was resisted a Bow Blessed by Athena’s power, and his own host body turned on him using his own power, and weapon against himself https://i.imgur.com/zV9Dmgk.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/yNuFKF9.jpg Zeus later returns after being killed off

     
    

    “P01



    Zeus: "It all began with us."



    Zeus: You're wrong, Shura.



    Zeus: It all started with me.



    Zeus: I recovered the body I lost ...



    Zeus: ... to start the right story ...



    Zeus: ... Rebuilding the world ruled by the gods on Earth.



    Zeus: The Sky ... The Submarine Kingdom ... Hell ... And the Earth ...


    Zeus: Everything will be under the control of the gods.”

     
    

    https://imgur.com/a/tro5sel Lastly, we have Saturn. Saturn was pierced by the Golden dagger shown in the last section. https://i.imgur.com/GSV5fJS.jpg https://i.imgur.com/XoVyyDK.jpg https://i.imgur.com/OAfc6BR.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Gevb6C4.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VbiFQYM.jpg https://i.imgur.com/COQsuac.jpg Saturn acknowledges that the Dagger would suffice to kill a God, but he later laughs it off, and regenerates the damage caused by it. https://i.imgur.com/PmLasLp.png https://i.imgur.com/Itbm5Sw.png https://i.imgur.com/S8zGfzv.png







    The Summary


    The Gods regenerate from the concept they are affilated with (Or they are the concept). Their existence are intertwined, and should be apart of each other. https://imgur.com/a/OlzCR


    1.) Hades Concept is his Underworld. When he died (he faded out of existence) his Underworld (His concept) went with him.we later see him again in Episode G Assassins fending off an attack aganist Zeus while the Main Bronze Saints made Gold Saints fight Zeus.Though Zeus used an attack made to hit the Bronze made Gold Saints, but the secondary effects destroyed the underworld. This is simply to show that Hades did revive. (High Godly Regeneration)


    2.) The Dream Gods were killed [2] [3] [4]. and they were later shown revived. Their "Concept" also crumbled with them. It took a "Divine Weapon/Holy Weapon" to kill them to a point where they can't revive. (High Godly Regeneration)


    3.) The Gods have weapons that have properties allowing them to kill other Gods.  Kronus, The Titan King, created a dagger specifically designed to kill Athena. The dagger was aslo acknolwedged to be able to suffice to kill a god. (Regen-Immortality Negation) [5] [6] [7] [8]


    4.) Kronos, The Titan King, permenantly killed Uranus. (Regen-immortality Negation) [9] [10] [11]


    5.) Gaia created weapons for the Titans that could kill gods. (Regen and Immortallity negation) [12] [13]


    6.) Capricorn El Cid's Excalibur killed the dream gods. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]


    7.) Athena destroyed the true body of Typhon, and he had to create a new true body. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [19]


    8.) Aiolia using Zeus's weapon killed 2 Titans. Both titans were sent to the underworld. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [20] [21] [22] [23]


    9.) Athena destroyed the true body of Typhon, but he later revived. Hades had his true body, and the concept that he is destroyed with him. He was later seen revived even though Athena can kill other Gods. (Regen and Immortality Negation Resistance)


    10.) Saturn regenerated after being stabbed by the Dagger that Kronos the titan king made. (Regen and Immortality Negation Resistance)

    11.) Zeus returns after being killed. Zeus fought against Typhon whom had to seal Zeus away instead of outright killing him. Zeus also fought a way against Kronos, the Titan King, that lasted for years. (Resistance to Regeneration, and Immortality Negation)




    High Godly Regen scaling = Likely all the Gods, or at least only Hades.

    Regeneration, and Immortality Negation Scaling = All the Gods, and Users whom have divine weapons. 

    Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation = Hades, Typhon, Saturn, and Zeus.




    Immortality Negation on Types Types 3; 4; 6; 8; and 9

    Regeneration Negation up to High Godly

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    • I’ve agreed with this for the longest tbh

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    • High Godly thingy: I'm incredulous to it at first, but after you explained the conceptual thingy, I'm convinced of it (I agree)

      Regen Negation & Resistances: Well, I think those seems fine. I'm iffy on the Athena one for a while, but then I think over and over, then I'm also fine with it (Hades gets High Godly not because he regens from Athena, but because his own feat). Who scale to this would be discussed later in the Thread.

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    • I agree with this. Though it seems Hades' Regeneration is superior to other Gods.

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    • Yeah, I think he'll be the only one to get the resistance to Regen negating

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    • Bump

      I might have a late response. Poseidon made an eternal rain and my basement is flooding now.

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    • I think your reasons for High Godly are bit stretched.

      1. The underworld is a physical place, for you to say that it’s Hades concept, you would have to provide information that is described as such.

      2. Hades created the underworld and when he died it went with him. It can’t be hades Concept if he created it. And it going with him when he died means its reliant on him.

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    • TheUnshakableOne
      TheUnshakableOne removed this reply because:
      Yhjjgrr
      17:44, January 11, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • [[1]]

      The gods are reliant on the concept they rule over/embody for their Regeneration. I do have my own scans for Possibly conceptual manipulation/abstract existence, but I'll have to grab them from my laptop only when I get home.

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    • You should ask the staff and experienced active members listed in the Saint Seiya verse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here.

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    • Also, Seiya killed Thanatos for good dont ? Once he gets his god cloth, isn't this Immortaliy negation as well as his comrades accomplished the same ? 

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    • @Lthesavant its unknown. we know he beat him, but the Immortalities they have are mostly for their Regeneration like nature, or their true bodies are in some other world, After Thanatos and Hypnos was defeated they never appeared on screen again iirc

      @Antvasima I am going to write a better looking summary for people and then i will message them. i did message the knowledgable members though

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • The Gods regenerate from the concept they are affilated with (Or they are the concept). Their existence are intertwined, and should be apart of each other. https://imgur.com/a/OlzCR


      1.) Hades Concept is his Underworld. When he died (Or faded out of existence?) his Underworld (His concept) went with him.we later see him again in Episode G Assassins fending off an attack aganist Zeus while the Main Bronze Saints made Gold Saints fight Zeus.Though Zeus used an attack made to hit the Bronze made Gold Saints, but the secondary effects destroyed the underworld. This is simply to show that Hades did revive. (High Godly Regeneration)


      2.) The Dream Gods were killed [1] [2] [3]. and they were later shown revived. Their "Concept" also crumbled with them. It took a "Divine Weapon/Holy Weapon" to kill them to a point where they can't revive. (High Godly Regeneration)


      3.) The Gods have weapons that have properties allowing them to kill other Gods.  Kronus, The Titan King, created a dagger specifically designed to kill Athena. The dagger was aslo acknolwedged to be able to suffice to kill a god. (Regen-Immortality Negation) [4] [5] [6] [7]


      4.) Kronos, The Titan King, permenantly killed Uranus. (Regen-immortality Negation) [8] [9] [10]


      5.) Gaia created weapons for the Titans that could kill gods. (Regen and Immortallity negation) [11] [12]


      6.) Capricorn El Cid's Excalibur killed the dream gods. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [13] [14] [15] [16] [17]


      7.) Athena destroyed the true body of Typhon, and he had to create a new true body. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [18]


      8.) Aiolia using Zeus's weapon killed 2 Titans. Both titans were sent to the underworld. (Regen and Immortality Negation) [19] [20] [21] [22]


      9.) Athena destroyed the true body of Typhon, but he later revived. Hades had his true body, and the concept that he is destroyed with him. He was later seen revived even though Athena can kill other Gods. (Regen and Immortality Negation Resistance)


      10.) Saturn regenerated after being stabbed by the Dagger that Kronos the titan king made. (Regen and Immortality Negation Resistance)

      11.) Zeus returns after being killed. Zeus fought against Typhon whom had to seal Zeus away instead of outright killing him. Zeus also fought a way against Kronos, the Titan King, that lasted for years. (Resistance to Regeneration, and Immortality Negation)




      High Godly Regen scaling = Likely all the Gods, or at least only Hades.

      Regeneration, and Immortality Negation Scaling = All the Gods, and Users whom have divine weapons. 

      Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation = Hades, Typhon, Saturn, and Zeus.




      Immortality Negation on Types Types 3; 4; 6; 8; and 9

      Regeneration Negation up to High Godly


      This is subject to edits before finalizing it

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    • For Eris, yes, it's stated that as long as conflict exists she will return, that is relient immortality type 8.

      But for Hades and the Dream gods, you're saying that the spaces they ruled over are their concepts. But I just don't see that supported by the text. And also those spaces were destroyed upon their own demise. I don't think that warrants High-Godly for Hades to be able to regenerate after his underworld was destroyed. In fact, he created the underworld, meaning he predated it. 

      Now if it was the other way around, that the underworld predated Hades, or even created him, and the underworld was destroyed and then caused Hades to be destroyed, and then hades regenerated after underworld was gone, then I could see it. 

      As for the immortality and regeneration negation, yes. Agree. And for the resistance to regeneration Negation. Yes. 

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    • @Iamunanimousinthat

      Tartarus is apart of Hades underworld, and it predates Kronos the Titan King, who predates Hades https://i.imgur.com/g1CLK2y.jpg https://imgur.com/a/KYwZsAB Tartarus was around since Uranus, and Gaia's union. 

      And the Dream World is an aspect/Part of the Underworld https://i.imgur.com/GmiMUsH.jpg

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    • The scans don't say that Tartarus is apart of Hade's underworld. While in original greek myths, Tartarus is apart of the underworld, this doesn't seem to be the case for Saint Seiya. 

      It also would be a huge contradicition, Hades created the undreworld, if tartarus was apart of Hades's underworld, that would mean he had created it too. That's just a huge contradicition.

      Also, yes, the Dream Worlds are part of underworld as the dream gods are under Hypnos, who in turn served Hades. 

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    • The Titans were sealed off into the world of the dead. The Underworld is often refferred to as "The World of the Dead.' Tatarus is also the place they sealed at, and they made their base there. https://i.imgur.com/3WtHbyH.jpg

      When the Titans are defeated they return to Tartarus https://i.imgur.com/xMuSxxT.jpg https://i.imgur.com/QfciPEs.jpg Hades also escorted Kronos, the Titan King, to Tartarus https://img-yes.filestatic1.xyz/images/saint-seiya-episode-g/87/174-175.png.webp

      In Saint Seiya Episode G Aassassins: The sanctuary went aganist Athena's orders and is trying to revive Gold Saints. The Gold Saints that are revived, revived from Taratarus https://i.imgur.com/M0rHwmK.jpg 

      and we see Hades himself escorting Camus https://i.imgur.com/8Np1t2l.jpg 
      That whole explanation is the first few scans here https://imgur.com/a/KYwZsAB

      Lastly, The Underworld exist outside of Time. It doesn't transcend it, but it doesn't follow a flow of time. https://i.imgur.com/bFPqvQ7  https://i.imgur.com/6MdTmeD.jpg png https://i.imgur.com/6MdTmeD.jpg


      To finish this, 

      Was there a time when Athena referred to Hades as her Brother? I don't recall an instance of that happening if i remember properly. I remember her calling him a God, or calling him by name.

      Though Zeus did talk to poseidon directly, and Zeus reffered to Poseidon as a brother, but when Hades was holding things together. Zeus and Hades didn't talk at all. Even though Hades, and Poseidon were trying to do the same thing. Save the humans from Zeus.

      Athena also did refferr to Poseidon as her brother, and she shown a more odd level of trust to him when compared to Hades/

      The other Gods we saw that interacted with Hades also reffered to Hades as "Lord" something like "God." I don't recall an instance of them reffering to him as family, but i only remember him being reffered to as a superior. Again this is only if my memory is remembering everything properly. 

      When Kronos descended down into the Underworld/Tartarus. He spoke to Hades casually as if addressing a friend instead of a child that overthrew him. Hades also had a look on his face as if sad for Kronos. Kronos also trusted Hades to keep a promise, and Hades did follow through with it. Kronos's first words to hades when translated from Portuguese was "Hades you were watching everything! I know you were!" Implying that Kronos knew Hades long enough to know what his tendencies/Habits were. 

      If you go back enough, or early enough in the history of the Saint Seiya verse. There was a time when there was only Immortals. This was a time before "Humans" existed. Back then there wasn't a needed for an "Afterlife" but a need for an "Eternal Punishment. 

      Gaia was the Earth, Pontos the Ocean, and Uranus the Sky. Possibly Chronos of time, and Abzu of Creation, and Darkness. Then if Tartarus existed in Uranus's time. Then there was a god for it too, and Hades seems to be a match.

      It kind of does make sense since we do have a a bit of feats for Hades underworld existing without a  flow of Time. 

      The possibility of Hades originally being a Titan, or older, is possible. Saint seiya verse doens't have to faithfully follow the original mythology. 


      Anyways, humans didn't exist until some time after the war with the Titans. During that point in time. There was only immortals, and other divine beings to lesser extents. They didn't feel death. It wasn't until Humans were around when a "Concept of an Afterlife" was needed. We get an example of what life without an afterlife is like in Episode G Assassins. "The death of humans will disappear, and there will be nothing." https://imgur.com/a/sU0HhWM Maybe hes tied to the concept of death too? but it disappears with him?

      Hades created the Underworld to create "Fear" aganist the gods to humans. What better way to create fear in "Finite" beings than "what comes after Death?"


      It wouldn't be impossible. there is already more than 1 god for multiple aspects

      Okaneos, Pontos, Poesidon, and Wadatsumi for example. 4 gods of the oceand and sea

      There is 4 gods for dreaming, and hypnos could likely be a 5th 

      Uranus was a sky god before dying... Now its Zeus.. 

      Ra, Amaterasu, and Apollo for Gods of the Sun, and Aphophis was a former sun God

      Kairos, Primordial God Chronos (ND), Kronos the Titan King (G), and Saturn are all gods of Time.

      Abzu, and fallen Apophis are gods of darkness

      So hades, and Thanatos both being gods of death wouldn't be too far out of reach. Though Thanatos stated he did "Preside" over Death. idk if that makes a difference though..

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    • You should especially ask Matthew to comment here.

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    • I'd love if you can recommend who should be asked regarding Regeneration and Conceptual Manipulation too, as this CRT also cover those as well.

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    • You can ask Sera EX, Agnaa, and Antoniofer to comment here about that if you wish. They might be able to help.

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    • Thank you. I'll be messaging them in a moment.

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    • No problem.

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    • I don’t agree with this.

      Only the Primordial Gods are conceptual beings. All other gods simply rule realms and have dominion over certain aspects of reality like death, time, war, etc. They represent them, sure, but not in the way primordial gods personify them.

      For example, Chronos (Primordial God) is the divine personification of time, while Cronus (Titan) has dominion over time.

      The gods just have Mid-Godly, while the primordials likely have High-Godly as they had to be sealed away and couldn’t even be destroyed by great gods like Zeus.

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    • Iamunanimousinthat wrote: The scans don't say that Tartarus is apart of Hade's underworld. While in original greek myths, Tartarus is apart of the underworld, this doesn't seem to be the case for Saint Seiya. 

      It also would be a huge contradicition, Hades created the undreworld, if tartarus was apart of Hades's underworld, that would mean he had created it too. That's just a huge contradicition.

      Also, yes, the Dream Worlds are part of underworld as the dream gods are under Hypnos, who in turn served Hades. 

      Tartarus is the primordial underworld. Hades created his underworld on top of Tartarus. Tartarus exists beneath Hades just like it does in Greek Myth. We see this in Episode G. Before falling to Tartarus again, Cronus first falls through Hades where he meets his son (then he exchanges his dunamis with Hades so Aiolia can return to the living world) and then falls deeper into Tartarus.

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    • So the Greek Gods aren't conceptual beings in their own right?

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    • Only the Primordial Greek Gods (Gaia, Uranus, Pontos, Erebus, etc.) The Titans and Olympians are just rulers of concepts but not conceptual beings. Zeus rules Heaven but doesn’t personify it. Uranus is the personification of Heaven.

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    • I agreed with first point I do not know about 2 or 3

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    • I see. Yeah I also disagree.

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    • What are we gonna do with Eris being reliant on conflicts?

      Is it her own ability that don't scale to other Gods?

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    • Reliant doesn't necessarily mean you embody.

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    • Type 8 immortality (reliant on discord)

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    • Well, forgot about the High Godly thingy.

      I'm convinced by Sera's explanation of how things work, currently.

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    • I think that Sera makes sense. Thank you for helping out.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Only the Primordial Greek Gods (Gaia, Uranus, Pontos, Erebus, etc.) The Titans and Olympians are just rulers of concepts but not conceptual beings. Zeus rules Heaven but doesn’t personify it. Uranus is the personification of Heaven.

      I will have a counter Response once I get home i will be home within about 8 to 10 hours from now.

      Edit: what about the other abilities outside of the high godly Regen?

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      I don’t agree with this.

      Only the Primordial Gods are conceptual beings. All other gods simply rule realms and have dominion over certain aspects of reality like death, time, war, etc. They represent them, sure, but not in the way primordial gods personify them.

      For example, Chronos (Primordial God) is the divine personification of time, while Cronus (Titan) has dominion over time.

      The gods just have Mid-Godly, while the primordials likely have High-Godly as they had to be sealed away and couldn’t even be destroyed by great gods like Zeus.

      The primordial gods (Gea, Uranus y Pontus) in StS do not embody concepts. On the contrary, some non-primordial gods such as Eris and Chronus embody the very concept they represent.

      In Next Dimension, Chronus was never described as primordial, because it is only described as a god that transcends all other gods, therefore it is a god superior to the olympic gods (the most powerful gods), primordial gods, titans and other gods.

      Sera EX wrote:
      Tartarus is the primordial underworld. Hades created his underworld on top of Tartarus. Tartarus exists beneath Hades just like it does in Greek Myth. We see this in Episode G. Before falling to Tartarus again, Cronus first falls through Hades where he meets his son (then he exchanges his dunamis with Hades so Aiolia can return to the living world) and then falls deeper into Tartarus.

      Well, Hades dominates the entire world the of death in StS, even he dominates Tartarus, which is also part of his world. That is why the world of the death (Underworld, Elysium, Shadow of the Underworld, Tartarus, etc.) was destroyed by the Black Nucleus and Zeus when Hades can no longer stop the destruction.

      In the last scene of Episode.G when Hades speaks with Cronus they are in Tartarus, and Hades releases Aiolia from Tartarus (because he dominates this place) and sends them back to the world of the living.

      In Episode.G Assassin it is shown that Hades only exists as the world of the death (which is in ruins after its destruction at the end of the manga), because Athena destroyed the body and soul of the god at the end of the battle. When the power of Hades is defeated by the Black Nucleus and the attack of Zeus, the world of the death is destroyed and all living beings or souls (gods, mortals, etc.) will fall into the world of the emptiness, because Hades embodies the world of the death in Saint Seiya.

      Diinou HotHead wrote:
      What are we gonna do with Eris being reliant on conflicts?

      Is it her own ability that don't scale to other Gods?

      Shura says that if he kills Athena, the goddess may return after an unknown period of time. Although it is unknown if she returns because she embodies a concept or something like that.

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    • TheUpgradeManHaHaxD wrote:

      Regeneration, and Immortality Negation Scaling = All the Gods, and Users whom have divine weapons. 

      Resistance to Regeneration Negation, and Immortality Negation = Hades, Typhon, Saturn, and Zeus.

      I agree with this.

      I add:
      - Cronus also survived and was able to regenerate after several attacks by Saga with the Golden Dagger, a weapon to kill gods.
      - Athena with the eighth sense can also return after she was injured or killed with this dagger.

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    • The term "primordial god" isn't exactly used. The actual term id "great god" and with the exception of Cronus and Zeus, all the Great Gods are the primordial gods of Greek Myth. They personify their domains. Gaia is the Earth, Uranus is the Sky etc. "Concepts" is just a word people love throwing around nowadays.

      Gods return after death because of their Mid Godly regen. Not because they embody concepts. Athena doesn't embody any concept, even if she is representative of love and justice.

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    • In Episode.G the author uses the term of primordial god to describe this group gods and the highest gods are the olympians (described by Hypnos in the original manga). And as I said Uranus, Gea and Pontus do not embody their domains in StS, because these gods are not the heavens, the earth and the primordial sea. The god Uranus is even dead after his fight with Cronus.

      In Episode.G Assassin, Hades embodies his domain, the world of the death; therefore, the gods that embody their dominance in the universe of StS are Eris, Chronus, Hades and Tartarus (now a god of lesser rank than Hades or a servant of this god, who currently dominates and embodies the entire world of the death), and also for the continuity of the anime are Apsu (which embodies the darkness of the beginning) and Saturn (which embodies the time).

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    • @Sera

      So what should we do here?

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    • Sera convinced me, I also disagree about high godly regeneration

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    • I have a counter response coming. I ran into irl issues so I couldn't do it yesterday, and im not in a position to do it right now.

      But I do have a question for sera. What if a type 2 acasual being that has properties of midgodly Regen Currently was erased/killed in mind, body and soul? I'd that still midgodly?

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    • We're wasting time since, even if we accept the concept part, they still wouldn't have High Godly because iirc, it'd be Type 1 concept stuff instead of 2 or 3 which is required for High Godly.

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    • What are your opinions on the Regen negation thingy?

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    • @Sera

      So do we need to do anything here, or can we close this?

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    • We should probably wait on Matt, for a little while longer.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Sera EX wrote: We're wasting time since, even if we accept the concept part, they still wouldn't have High Godly because iirc, it'd be Type 1 concept stuff instead of 2 or 3 which is required for High Godly.

      Didn't you say it's type 2 or 3 conceptual Erasure on the revision thread? Wouldn't this change as well when the revisions for conceptual manipulation come?

      Edit: if it is type 1 conceptual Erasure. I think the wiki should be alerted since many characters with type 2 or 3 conceptual Erasure (then Regen) got high godly..


      Screenshot 20200114-091127
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    • I said type 2/3 conceptual erasure is needed for high godly.

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    • @Sera

      Does the definition need to be modified again?

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    • Maybe, or perhaps a note would be better. Essentially the " concept" in verse has to be the source of everything (so in verses where concepts > a disembodied consciousness like a soul is actually the case, rather than just assumed).

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    • I obviously disagree. What the gods have is only Mid-Godly.

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    • Thank you for the evaluation. I suppose that their regenerations should not be upgraded then.

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    • Sera EX wrote: Maybe, or perhaps a note would be better. Essentially the " concept" in verse has to be the source of everything (so in verses where concepts > a disembodied consciousness like a soul is actually the case, rather than just assumed).

      Another question I have is. How does acasualty type 2, and 4 be affected if they are erased??

      And the source of everything, or a concept where everything in verse participates in it?

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    • I don’t really get how we treat acausality anymore.

      And specifically concepts being the primary source of existence, the most fundamental basic principle of the verse so to speak.

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    • All that I can help with is to provide a link. Sorry.

      Acausality

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    • Sera EX wrote: I don’t really get how we treat acausality anymore.

      And specifically concepts being the primary source of existence, the most fundamental basic principle of the verse so to speak.


      Can being a primary source of existence be only 1 concept or multiple?

      For example the concept of death for an entire verse? If it goes then death no longer exist for anyone in the verse.

      Or all life stems from a single conceptual origin for the entire verse. That concept of life itself??

      Or is it a concept that specifically deals with only existence itself? Examples being planets, Multiverses, universes, etc?

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    • “Concepts” as a whole being the foundation of reality (not just one specific concept). In other words, everything is downstream or comes from concepts. Souls, life, death, the universe, etc.

      An example of what I mean by “primary” is information in I/O. In that verse everything at its most basic is information. Data is the most fundamental aspect of existence. Everything is data.

      So in terms of concepts, everything in the verse in its most basic fundamental nature would be conceptual, often platonic btw.

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    • If a character has no present, or any future. If a character is also indepenedent of time (Separate character for that one) and they have mid godly regen. Temporal erasure won't effect them right? How do you prove high godly earsure then? (assume that they had mid godly under the old system)

      Also characters who are the Past, present, and future, and characters who are omnipresent in the past present and future

      Edit 3: What about characters who transcend time?

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      I don’t agree with this.

      Only the Primordial Gods are conceptual beings. All other gods simply rule realms and have dominion over certain aspects of reality like death, time, war, etc. They represent them, sure, but not in the way primordial gods personify them.

      For example, Chronos (Primordial God) is the divine personification of time, while Cronus (Titan) has dominion over time.

      The gods just have Mid-Godly, while the primordials likely have High-Godly as they had to be sealed away and couldn’t even be destroyed by great gods like Zeus.

      Do the primordial still have your vote for "Likely High Godly?" because they are the personification of their concept + Mid Godly regen = High Godly??

      Also, there is 2 more Primordials. Abzu the God of the Primordial Darkness, and Creation, and Saturn (Who is basically the animes version of Chronos)

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    • In StS, the primordial gods (Uranus, Gea and Pontus) do not embody their concept or domain, so I do not agree with the High-Godly regeneration for these gods or any other god. The gods have is only Mid-Godly regeneration.

      An example:
      - Uranus is not sky in this universe, because he only created the sky or clouds (domain of the god) and mountains.

      - Cronus did not fight with a god in the form of the sky, he only fights against a god with physical form and the appearance of a giant.

      - Uranus is dead in StS and the sky or clouds did not disappear after the battle.
      - Gea is not the Earth, because she is a goddess with physical form and has the appearance of a normal woman. Gea only created his domain (that's why she is the mother of the Earth), but she does not embody the Earth or something similar.

      Therefore, these gods do not embody their domain or concept in the universe of StS, probably in mythology it is so, but in the universe of StS it is not so.

      The only gods that embody his domain in StS are Chronus (the god that transcends), Hades (as shown in Episode.G Assassin), Eris (debatable, because I have my doubts about this), Tartarus (debatable, because I have my doubts about this), Apsu (for the anime, he is the embodiment of the darkness of the beginning and his body is only darkness) and Saturn.

      Probably, Lugh and Balor by the description of these gods in TLC.

      Sage explains that they are different from a goddess who has a physical form like Athena, because they are part of the earth and cycle of life.

      Sage: Unlike our corporeal goddess...
      Sage: These gods are fused directly with the earth where they reside.
      Sage: They are part of the cycle of life, but they are very powerfu.

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    • the characters can have defined, and real form, and still be a type 1 abstract existence, and i also believe "Sky" is representative of "heaven" in which Cronus took over after the death of Uranus. Now weather it was through just Concetpual manipulation, or abstract existence is irrelevant to this, or not important. 

      There is also these... 

      Cosmo is Balance. It keeps order, and Harmony in the universe. I am the Endless Darkness. I am Cosmo - This was Cronus (Saint Seiya) https://i.imgur.com/VVA0Mor.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VbBEPSC.jpg

      Saturn states he is Eternity (Time) when fighting the main protagonist(s), and Saturn is the god of All time, and space. https://i.imgur.com/aF4fArV.jpg https://i.imgur.com/4KiDwM7.png (Cruncyroll has a protection aganist screenshots hence the black screen)

      Abzu is the God of Creation, Destruction, and Darkness. https://i.imgur.com/8Cilfpq.jpg https://i.imgur.com/odfpQza.jpg https://i.imgur.com/29IiGQj.jpg He was shown to be Darkness https://i.imgur.com/aHpGuZd.jpg https://i.imgur.com/tpJ5n5V.jpg https://i.imgur.com/wC8hgqZ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/YzR19h1.jpg https://i.imgur.com/Cckgmi7.jpg

      The Titan Okaneos controls the perpetual flow of all things that have a flow https://i.imgur.com/QhbbdPx.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nrcDyZj.jpg; and he also states that he is the “Perpetual flow/current” https://i.imgur.com/LFDPI54.jpg

      The Gods can Take a Temporary Forms https://i.imgur.com/R7VO7pI.png

      The body of a god is a sacred existence in which a human can never interfere with due to the symbols of their power https://i.imgur.com/q9hsZDJ.jpg https://i.imgur.com/UX8iSwN.jpg

      There are different forms of Faith, and Beliefs. Their quantities correspond to the number of gods that exist in the world. https://i.imgur.com/fdxZdEX.jpg


      Objects created by peoples/Human’s feelings can never be destroyed. https://i.imgur.com/FrhLVny.jpg 


      anyways.. @Sera EX .. do you think the primordials still have High Godly regen?

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    • TheUpgradeManHaHaxD wrote:
      the characters can have defined, and real form, and still be a type 1 abstract existence, and i also believe "Sky" is representative of "heaven" in which Cronus took over after the death of Uranus. Now weather it was through just Concetpual manipulation, or abstract existence is irrelevant to this, or not important. 

      There is also these... 

      Cosmo is Balance. It keeps order, and Harmony in the universe. I am the Endless Darkness. I am Cosmo - This was Cronus (Saint Seiya) https://i.imgur.com/VVA0Mor.jpg https://i.imgur.com/VbBEPSC.jpg

      The Titan Okaneos controls the perpetual flow of all things that have a flow https://i.imgur.com/QhbbdPx.jpg https://i.imgur.com/nrcDyZj.jpg; and he also states that he is the “Perpetual flow/current” https://i.imgur.com/LFDPI54.jpg

      That's right, but these characters never embodied their domain or concept. Uranus created the sky or the clouds in the sky, he controls his domain, but he does not embody the sky in this universe, for example Poseidon controls the oceans, but he does not embody these oceans.

      The Titan Okeanos only shows that a god can control the domain that it represents, although now it is the domain of Poseidon, the great god of the oceans.

      I agree with Apsu and Saturn as gods that embody their domain in the universe of StS (anime universe), but these are different gods (they are even gods of another culture).

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    • Question. Why are we still using the Porteguese translation for Zeus' immortality when we have the English translation for it?

      https://imgur.com/a/4TQNQ8d

      As well as the English translation for Hades sword.

      https://imgur.com/a/Ih6BzTi

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    • I didn't know that these chapters were translated.

      Thank you!

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    • @Sera & Matthew

      What do we need to do here?

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    • The quote from Zeus in Episode G Assassin does not refer to a concept or anything like that, this is not made explicit and does not even give ideas about it, in the context it is made explicit that even without souls and bodies they still exist, and their will and core reside in a currently unknown place, which makes it possible for them to always return from their receptacles or with some will to be able to manifest themselves on the physical plane, but without powers. That, I believe, is Abstract Existence Type 2.

      Hades also does not command tartarus, one of the good reasons for this is that gaia is a conscious and physical entity, just like uranus, and the existence of a typhoon shows that tartarus can also reproduce, which with my logical reasoning said above, it is clear that like gaia he lives in his own domain.

      I would like to suggest something, I do not know if you guys noticed, but I believe that Pegasus is a possible Conceptual Existence, this scan proves this, the context of it is clear, without the pegasus no human can perform infinite miracles and cannot save the earth forever, but with his presence that is guided by time and destiny, the "hero" of humans can always save humanity and to seal him, hades sealed him where he never reincarnated where time never turns forward or backward. I believe with that he has a passive "Fate Manipulation" that even the gods cannot avoid and that affects not only him but the whole of humanity since without him, the dimension of the aiolos was totally destroyed with only him managing to live.

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    • Archaron wrote: The quote from Zeus in Episode G Assassin does not refer to a concept or anything like that, this is not made explicit and does not even give ideas about it, in the context it is made explicit that even without souls and bodies they still exist, and their will and core reside in a currently unknown place, which makes it possible for them to always return from their receptacles or with some will to be able to manifest themselves on the physical plane, but without powers. That, I believe, is Abstract Existence Type 2.

      Hades also does not command tartarus, one of the good reasons for this is that gaia is a conscious and physical entity, just like uranus, and the existence of a typhoon shows that tartarus can also reproduce, which with my logical reasoning said above, it is clear that like gaia he lives in his own domain.

      I would like to suggest something, I do not know if you guys noticed, but I believe that Pegasus is a possible Conceptual Existence, this scan proves this, the context of it is clear, without the pegasus no human can perform infinite miracles and cannot save the earth forever, but with his presence that is guided by time and destiny, the "hero" of humans can always save humanity and to seal him, hades sealed him where he never reincarnated where time never turns forward or backward. I believe with that he has a passive "Fate Manipulation" that even the gods cannot avoid and that affects not only him but the whole of humanity since without him, the dimension of the aiolos was totally destroyed with only him managing to live.

      This is a really interesting interpretation, and I agree

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    • Archaron wrote:

      Hades also does not command tartarus, one of the good reasons for this is that gaia is a conscious and physical entity, just like uranus, and the existence of a typhoon shows that tartarus can also reproduce, which with my logical reasoning said above, it is clear that like gaia he lives in his own domain.

      Hades commands Tartarus as the great god of the world of the dead in the universe of StS, the god can free Aioria from the depths of Tartarus and returns him to Earth (last chapter of Episode G ). Aiolos only narrates the myth of Typhoon in the universe of StS, a myth that says that Typhon was born of Gea and Tartarus, but Gea can create gods or children with the matter of the world (she created Uranus and Pontus in this way). In the following chapters (and Assassin) it was shown that Tartarus is a place, another part of the world of the dead controlled by Hades,a place where some mortal souls live after death , and the world of the dead (Elysium, Underworld, Tartarus, Shadow of the Underworld and Yomotsu) was destroyed by the power of the Black Core and the attack of Zeus when Hades cannot stop the destruction.

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    • Would the regen revision change anything here?

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    • Eganergo wrote:
      Would the regen revision change anything here?

      That was origianlly what this was for.

      Gods being abstract nature with their existence being intertwined with the concept they represent/rule over. Weather it be Reliant immortlaity or they are the concept. For example, Hades being the God of Death, and the underworld. He dies so did his underworld and death for humans. but he comes back later. 

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    • Antvasima wrote: @Sera & Matthew

      What do we need to do here?

      Should we close this thread?

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    • Let's say I do agree with all the other stuff outside of regen.

      The Episode G stuff (the more impressive stuff so far) need to be on it's own page. Episode G is it's own continuity after all, so it shouldn't be on their main canon files. I've noticed for example, Shura has Episode G keys instead of a separate page. Why? There's contradictory lore and a large distinction of abilities between the main series and Epsiode G. Same with Saintia Sho, the anime only Soul of Gold, etc.

      If we separate the continuities for other verses, we should do the same for SS.

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    • I think that Sera makes sense, but somebody would have to be willing to handle the work involved.

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    • We didn't because we took them as canon, as far as I remember.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Let's say I do agree with all the other stuff outside of regen.

      The Episode G stuff (the more impressive stuff so far) need to be on it's own page. Episode G is it's own continuity after all, so it shouldn't be on their main canon files. I've noticed for example, Shura has Episode G keys instead of a separate page. Why? There's contradictory lore and a large distinction of abilities between the main series and Epsiode G. Same with Saintia Sho, the anime only Soul of Gold, etc.

      If we separate the continuities for other verses, we should do the same for SS.

      Episode.G is a weaker continuity, because it is the past of the main universe, the strongest continuity is the Classic Manga, Next Dimension and Assassin (because one of the universes is a possible future of the main timeline).

      Shura of Episode.G is only a younger version (a more weak version) of Shura in the main universe of the series, therefore, it does not need a different page. Shura of Assassin (protagonist) must have his own page or a different key on the page, because it is a version of Shura of a different (unknown) universe of the multiverse with several power ups that it obtains in the Future World. However, this will be reviewed in future editions.

      The basic skills of the characters are no different in the universes of the multiverse (franchise), because even the authors (Okada, Kuori and Shiori) wrote a joint work for the franchise that is the novel of Golden Age (a story between the Poseidon Arc and Hades Arc) and a comedy crossover with the three protagonists.

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    • Only assassin's should get a separate profile for gold saiints. Hyoga states that the gold saints brought to their world were stronger than their previous selves, also Aiolia is a young teen iirc in assassin's

      Destiny, zero, episode G, classic series, next Dimension, and assassin's are all the same timeline/"existence"

      Also, there maybe far less issues with consistency than you guys believe. There isn't any,or not a lot, of contradictions to lore.

      Classic/original series has scaling with Zeus, and a possible "Infinitely above baseline 2-C" feat that was overlooked, and There's also lots of other 2-C feats, and plenty of Low 2-C/3-A feats. I been preparing for the day when AP revisions come.

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    • I agree with Sera and Ant, including I'm already preparing a massive revision for all the profile of saint seiya, and I've already architected several profiles as well.

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    • But.....Episode G isn't "it's own continuity"

      It's explicitly a canon prequel to the original manga

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I think that Sera makes sense, but somebody would have to be willing to handle the work involved.

      I could start with this work, but as TheUpgradeManHaHaxD explains it is just separating some pages and reviewing some skills.

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    • Only gods wouldn't be affected unless the verse has some explanation for it

      Obvsiouly the Bronze saints were given gold cloths so they would be completely different + They are older and more experienced as these events take place after next dimesion

      the only questionable one is seiya, but the Gold God cloth can be separated too

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    • TheUpgradeManHaHaxD wrote:

      Obvsiouly the Bronze saints were given gold cloths so they would be completely different + They are older and more experienced as these events take place after next dimesion

      Yes, the protagonists (adults) like the new Gold Saints should have their own page, because they are older and some have new skills. This is similar to the pages of Naruto Part I (Kid), Part II (Teenager) and New Era (Adult).

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    • Well, the reason Naruto has three pages is because, like Goku, he’d have too many keys otherwise.

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    • Besides that it is full of inconsistency, it harms episode G or G.A itself.

      Kurumada's writing is very simplistic, while Okada's is much more cosmic.

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    • What are some of these inconsistencies?

      the Gold saints can be divided up in Assassins. Their "Other worlders" brought into the "Main timeline" whilethe 5 bronzes made Gold are the original just much stronger due to time skips.

      Episode G (Not assassins), they start out weaker, but progressively get stronger as the story progressives (Except Saga)

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    • As far as I remember there are no big contradictions between the classic manga and Ep.G, the only ones that could give problems are the Photon burst, and Cronos' powers passed to Hades

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    • Alonik wrote:

      Kurumada's writing is very simplistic, while Okada's is much more cosmic.

      No, Kurumada is more cosmic and philosophical, Okada is more simplistic because he only seeks to make a good action story.

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    • Hades in classic series has a few statements of him being compared to Zeus. Athena was also given the same statement. Just Hades 1 more additonal one than Poseidon and Athena. 

      Then there is a light novel where Athena waged many holy wars aganist Typhon after he was sealed by Zeus. Ancient Athena had a plan to seal Typhon away which succeeded, and Ancient Athena at some point in Time destroyed Typhons "True Body" permanently

      in Episode G Assassins, a weakened Hades was able to hold off an attack by Zeus but only for a short time. 

      Also Episode G assassins gives anyone who masters the 9th sense an extra (infinity) and dunamis

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    • Good point quoting Saga, in the classic work and Next Dimension, GE is classified only as Multi Star, Ikki quotes Cain GE is stronger than Saga GE, and remains in the same idea. 

      While in Episode G, which is years before the classic, and chronologically before ikki says that Cain's GE is superior to Saga even being just multi star, it is super inferior to GE of the EP G, who is literally galaxy at the beginning of the EP G.

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    • Leonida85 wrote:
      As far as I remember there are no big contradictions between the classic manga and Ep.G, the only ones that could give problems are the Photon burst, and Cronos' powers passed to Hades

      The latter does not matter, because they never showed that Hades took the deumanis from his father or he fulfilled his request without asking anything. The scene is ambiguous at the end.

      Hades does not need his father's deumanis, because he is more powerful than Cronus.

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    • This is just one of the inconsistency, I can keep quoting several, between the writing of Kurumada and Okada, but this only on a future thread, to not derail this one.

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    • Just shows how weak saga is, and how he isn't even top tier. just overly wank garabo

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    • Alonik wrote:
      Good point quoting Saga, in the classic work and Next Dimension, GE is classified only as Multi Star, Ikki quotes Cain GE is stronger than Saga GE, and remains in the same idea. 

      While in Episode G, which is years before the classic, and chronologically before ikki says that Cain's GE is superior to Saga even being just multi star, it is super inferior to GE of the EP G, who is literally galaxy at the beginning of the EP G.

      The Taizen describes G.E. with the power to destroy the galaxy, and ND describes that Shijima and Shaka can destroy and create countless universes with their techniques (Angyo and Ungyo). Saga is comparable or close in power to Shaka and is probably stronger than Shijima.

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    • In the classic manga, Saga himself says that the GE can destroy the stars and planets of the Milky Way.

      And anyway the final scene between Hades and his father is also quite cryptic

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    • The Taizen describes G.E with the power to destroy a galaxy, and ND describes that Shijima and Shaka can destroy countless universes with their techniques (Angyo and Ungyo), Saga is comparable or close in power to Shaka and is probably stronger than Shijima.

      Taizen also says that G.E Galaxy is just a commercial.  I don't know which universes were created, because Shijima himself says he's hyperbole, he clearly says that it was the representative sound of the birth of the universe, not which universes were being created.

      Moreover, Saga is not comparable to Shaka, in the classic he dies of fear of Shaka, because he is the Gold Saint with the greatest cosmo of that generation.

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    • Alonik wrote: The Taizen describes G.E with the power to destroy a galaxy, and ND describes that Shijima and Shaka can destroy countless universes with their techniques (Angyo and Ungyo), Saga is comparable or close in power to Shaka and is probably stronger than Shijima.

      Taizen also says that G.E Galaxy is just a commercial.  I don't know which universes were created, because Shijima himself says he's hyperbole, he clearly says that it was the representative sound of the birth of the universe, not which universes were being created.

      Moreover, Saga is not comparable to Shaka, in the classic he dies of fear of Shaka, because he is the Gold Saint with the greatest cosmo of that generation.


      What you write about Saga makes me understand that you haven't read the manga or even seen the anime

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    • It's also said that the libra weapon are only star level to likely multi star, and that she is superior to the strength of several Gold saint together, when Hyoga is within of the Freezing Coffin.

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    • Alonik wrote:

      Taizen also says that G.E Galaxy is just a commercial.  I don't know which universes were created, because Shijima himself says he's hyperbole, he clearly says that it was the representative sound of the birth of the universe, not which universes were being created.

      Moreover, Saga is not comparable to Shaka, in the classic he dies of fear of Shaka, because he is the Gold Saint with the greatest cosmo of that generation.

      Taizen says what is clearly the power of Saga's technique. Shun describes that the fight of Shijima and Shaka creates and destroys countless universes, even Kurumada draws the destroyed planets and stars in the scene.

      Saga is comparable or close to Shaka and described as one of the strongest Gold Saints, even some indicate that it is the strongest.

      In Episode.G, Saga says that the power of his technique is comparable to a supernova. In Assassin, Saga describes that his technique can shake the planets or worlds.

      Alonik wrote:
      It's also said that the libra weapon are only star level to likely multi star, and that she is superior to the strength of several Gold saint together, when Hyoga is within of the Freezing Coffin.

      The weapons of Libra increase their power with the user's cosmos. Even Suikyo destroys the weapons of Libra in Next Dimension with his attack, when he is very weakened.

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    • Taizen says what is clearly the power of Saga's technique. Shun describes that the struggle of Shijima and Shaka creates and destroys countless universes, even Kurumada draws the destroyed planets and stars in the fight.

      Taizen says something in the saga profile, and then contradicts himself in the description of the technique in the flap of the concepts of saint seiya. No matter what Shun says, it's what Shijima says, he's the virgo saint. The technique he knows very well and says the following.

      Literally, they are not universes being created, it is just a sound that represents the creation of the universe, this is grotesque hyperbole.

      Saga is comparable Shaka and described as one of the strongest Gold Saints, even some indicate that it is the strongest.

      Saga is not comparable, he is far below of Shaka. Saga was only considered the strongest Saint when all Saints who are 20 years old in the classic were only 7 years old in Saint Seiya episode 0.

      In Episode.G, Saga says that the power of his technique is comparable to a supernova. In Assassin, Saga describes that his technique can shake the planets or worlds.

      I said this in my comment, it would be very possible for you to read it carefully, where I say EP G has authentic quotes from the G.E level while in the classic and ND is inconsistent.

      The weapons of Libra increase their power with the user's cosmos. Even Suikyo destroys the weapons of Libra in Next Dimension with his attack, when he is very weakened.

      It doesn't matter, they continue to be described in many times as star to likely multi star in the writing of the kurumada.

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    • The Libra weapons ae not star level. That was a statement made by rookie bronze saints. The Libra weapons have feats well beyond Low 2-C

      Shaka, and Shijiama was directly shown to be creating and destroying universes. 

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    • If you guys want to debate attack potency, and canoncity. I can make a thread for that tomorrow. I have come prepared for this day

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    • Alonik wrote:

      Taizen says something in the saga profile, and then contradicts himself in the description of the technique in the flap of the concepts of saint seiya. No matter what Shun says, it's what Shijima says, he's the virgo saint. The technique he knows very well and says the following.

      Literally, they are not universes being created, it is just a sound that represents the creation of the universe, this is grotesque hyperbole.

      Saga is not comparable, he is far below of Shaka. Saga was only considered the strongest Saint when all Saints who are 20 years old in the classic were only 7 years old in Saint Seiya episode 0.

      It is not important, because the Taizen describes what is the power of Saga's technique, an official and canonical medium describes the character's power.

      Shun is the narrator of the fight, and he describes everything that happens in that scene. His word is the most important and Shun describes that countless universes are created and destroyed in the fight. Even the author draws the planets and stars destroyed in that scene.

      Shun: No... But, this is !? This isn't just a normal confrontation between Light and Darkness !!
      Shun: Seiseiruten!!
      Shun: Countless Universes and lives are born and disappear !!

      Saga is comparable or close to Shaka in power, even the author describes that he is one of the strongest, and Milo in Hades Arc describes that Saga was the strongest Gold Saint. Even the description on the official site of the franchise, describes Saga as the strongest.
      聖域十二宮で双児宮を守護する者。その実力は黄金聖闘士(ゴールドセイント)の中でも群を抜き、「邪悪」と「神の化身」という二面性を併せ持つ人格からか、前教皇シオンを暗殺し聖域(サンクチュアリ)を支配しようと目論む。

      In Episode.G, Saga describes that his technique has the power of a Supernova, therefore, he cannot destroy a galaxy as he indicates later. In Assassin, Saga describes that his technique shakes the worlds and planets (not the galaxies).

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    • It is not important, because the Taizen describes what is the power of Saga's technique, an official and canonical medium describes the character's power.

      Just a commercial, as taizen himself says. And then Cain's G.E. which is more powerful than Saga G.E, continues with the same question of just being a multi star, and can just shake the galaxy, not destroy it.

      Shun is the narrator of the fight, and he describes everything that happens in that scene. His word is the most important and Shun describes that countless universes are created and destroyed in the fight. Even the author draws the planets and stars destroyed in that scene.

      Representative creation, as I showed before. It wasn't literal at all.

      Saga is comparable or close to Shaka in power, even the author describes that he is one of the strongest, and Milo in Hades Arc describes that Saga was the strongest Gold Saint.

      Because he was considered 13 years ago, and was missing, Milo referenced his strength when all the 20-year-old Gold Saint was only 7 years old.

      Saga himself as a sanctuary master says dohko is the strongest gold saint, not himself.

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    • Saga says Dohko is the strongest in Raw strength. not the strongest gold saint of the generaiotn and living around. 

      Shura also says he is (Shura himself is) the strongest gold saint

      Saga says Aiolia is one of the strongest Gold Saints. 

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    • In Episode.G, Saga describes that his technique has the power of a Supernova, therefore, he cannot destroy a galaxy as he indicates later. In Assassin, Saga describes that his technique shakes the worlds and planets (not the galaxies).

      It doesn't matter, just you read my comment, I've already talked about it in my first comments. Getting Ad ignorantiam won't give you any good point.

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    • Saga says Dohko is the strongest in Raw strength. not the strongest gold saint of the generaiotn and living around.

      Your comment is an antithesis and contradicts yourself.

      Shura also says he is (Shura himself is) the strongest gold saint

      Just Shura's ego.

      Saga says Aiolia is one of the strongest Gold Saints. 

      one of the strongest doesn't mean the strongest

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    • What Saga is saying is that Dohko is the strongest in strikiing strength. His punches 

      it isn't quiet shura's ego when hes really talking about Excalibur

      Anyways, if ou guys want an attack potency debate thread. I can open one up tomorrow

      ​​​​

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    • And still the strongest.The Libra Weapons themselves is stronger than several Gold Saints together.

      The work firmly argues that the Libra Cloth is the strongest Cloth of the Gold Saints. 

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    • Alonik wrote:

      Just a commercial, as taizen himself says. And then Cain's G.E. which is more powerful than Saga G.E, continues with the same question of just being a multi star, and can just shake the galaxy, not destroy it.

      Representative creation, as I showed before. It wasn't literal at all.

      Because he was considered 13 years ago, and was missing, Milo referenced his strength when all the 20-year-old Gold Saint was only 7 years old.

      Saga himself as a sanctuary master says dohko is the strongest gold saint, not himself.

      The Taizen confirms the power of Saga's technique, even in the second description of his technique it is said to be worthy of his fame as the technique that can destroy the stars and planets of the galaxy.

      The scene described in Taizen is when he uses his technique (the second time) with all his power against Ikki (when Ikki's body disintegrates). At that time his technique has the power of an exploding galaxy.

      It is literal because Shun is describing the scene.

      No, Milo observes his strength in the Sanctuary Arc, therefore, it is a reference to the current power of Saga, who is one of the strongest Gold Saints.

      He stronger in terms of destructive power, not strength, speed and other capabilities.

      Alonik wrote: It doesn't matter, just you read my comment, I've already talked about it in my first comments. Getting Ad ignorantiam won't give you any good point.

      Ignoring that in another scene, Saga describes that his technique only has the power of a supernova does not change anything. Even Okada uses the new description of the technique in Assassin, which indicates that the technique has the power to shake the planets or the galaxy.

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    • The libra weapons isn't a default weapon he uses on the regular. They aren't his immediate go to weapons. 

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    • The Taizen confirms the power of Saga's technique, even in the second description of his technique it is said to be worthy of his fame as the technique that can destroy the stars and planets of the galaxy.

      Wrong. It is said that it is just an propaganda, and says it's 4-B - 4-A.

      That's not galaxy, it didn't destroy the entire mass of the galaxy, just a part of her mass, and is just a propaganda.

      The scene described in Taizen is when he uses his technique (the second time) with all his power against Ikki (when Ikki's body disintegrates). At that time his technique has the power of an exploding galaxy.

      If I'm not mistaken, i'm saying this is on a microcosm scale in a matter of size, not in a literal galaxy. I can take the original and translate without any problems, including.

      It is literal because Shun is describing the scene.


      Representative, as Shijima himself said, besides that this is not the first time galaxies or large representative things appears in the virgin house, during the entire classic, these things are just illusions of Shaka, example is he arresting ikki by some meters in the house of virgin, and the ikki seeing his mind in an illusion of light years.

      No, Milo observes his strength in the Sanctuary Arc, therefore, it is a reference to the current power of Saga, who is one of the strongest Gold Saints.

      one of the strongest doesn't mean the strongest

      He stronger in terms of destructive power, not strength, speed and other capabilities.

      what speed? if the speed of the Gold Saints is just one: Speed of Light, according to them dozens of times during the classic.

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    • Alonik wrote:
      And still the strongest.The Libra Weapons themselves is stronger than several Gold Saints together.

      The work firmly argues that the Libra Cloth is the strongest Cloth of the Gold Saints. 

      No, weapons of Libra increase their power with the user's cosmos, a weapon of Libra in the hands of a Gold Saint is stronger. This is described in the Taizen.

      Even the attack of a weakened Suikyo can destroy the weapons of Libra and Libra Cloth carried by a young Dohko.

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    • Alonik wrote:

      Wrong. It is said that it is just an propaganda, and says it's 4-B - 4-A.

      That's not galaxy, it didn't destroy the entire mass of the galaxy, just a part of her mass, and is just a propaganda.

      If I'm not mistaken, i'm saying this is on a microcosm scale in a matter of size, not in a literal galaxy. I can take the original and translate without any problems, including.

      Representative, as Shijima himself said, besides that this is not the first time galaxies or large representative things appears in the virgin house, during the entire classic, these things are just illusions of Shaka, example is he arresting ikki by some meters in the house of virgin, and the ikki seeing his mind in an illusion of light years.

      what speed? if the speed of the Gold Saints is just one: Speed of Light, according to them dozens of times during the classic.

      Wrong, the description says that the power of the technique is overwhelmingly worthy of its propaganda or fame as the technique that can destroy the stars of the galaxy.

      In the description when he uses his technique with all his power.
      The secret blow of Saga consists of launching the cosmos raised to the maximum against the enemy. The destructive power is equivalent to the explosion of an entire galaxy.

      That does not matter, because on this occasion it is not only shown, it is also described which universe are destroyed and created in the fight.

      And the characters never describe or indicate that this is an illusion, as Shaka describes Ikki in that scene, when Shaka made him believe that he traveled to the ends of the universe.

      The characters can overcome the speed of the adversary, even Saga can stop the Aiolia technique, therefore, some are faster than others.

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    • @UpgradeMan

      A polite reminder that opening the thread does not give you the right to remove it, especially if there is lots of discussion going on.

      Please don't remove this thread again if you will.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote:
      @UpgradeMan

      A polite reminder that opening the thread does not give you the right to remove it, especially if there is lots of discussion going on.

      Please don't remove this thread again if you will.

      sorry i didn't see this, but this thread was origianlly for regeneraiton. I do have plans for Ap discussion, but wouldn't it be better to make a new therad for that?

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    • If that's the case, it'd be better to make another thread, yes.

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    • No, weapons of Libra increase their power with the user's cosmos, a weapon of Libra in the hands of a Gold Saint is stronger. This is described in the Taizen.

      It is described as superior to several Gold saints via scale with cammus quote of the freezing coffing.

      Even the attack of a weakened Suikyo can destroy the weapons of Libra and Libra Cloth carried by a young Dohko.

      Just more of the inconsistencies of kurumada.

      In the description when he uses his technique with all his power.

      This is only in Brazilian translation, but in the original it is said only that this is on the microcosm scale, it is not from macrocosm scale.

      It's one of the scans I'll translate soon, and post here on the blogs.

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    • @TheUpgradeManHaHaxD

      Up there I still warned this was derailing the thread. 

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    • Alonik wrote:

      It is described as superior to several Gold saints via scale with cammus quote of the freezing coffing.

      Just more of the inconsistencies of kurumada.

      This is only in Brazilian translation, but in the original it is said only that this is on the microcosm scale, it is not from macrocosm scale.

      It's one of the scans I'll translate soon, and post here on the blogs.

      That was just a hyperbole, because later in the Hades Arc, Minos destroys a Freezing Conffin variant with a casual hit.

      It is Kurumada's new manga, therefore, the author confirms tha weapons of Libra and Libra Cloth are not impressive, only when someone powerful uses them and increases their power.

      The Spanish, Italian and French version also describes this.

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    • That was just a hyperbole, because later in the Hades Arc, Minos destroys a Freezing Conffin variant with a casual hit.

      It was as strong as the original, Hyoga himself says that.

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    • Alonik wrote: That was just a hyperbole, because later in the Hades Arc, Minos destroys a Freezing Conffin variant with a casual hit.

      It was as strong as the original, Hyoga himself says that.

      A variant (used by Hyoga, who is more powerful than Camus) and Minos destroys it with a casual hit, therefore, it is only a hyperbole.

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    • That's just a feat for Minos. Besides Hyoga is stronger than Camus, so we have a complete basis of not being an Hyperbole of Hyoga.

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    • Since this thread has been derailed enough. If you guys give me a little bit of time. I can make a thread discussing AP in the verse for this. I will break it up into parts. A Part 1, and a Part 2. Part 1 focusing on Gold saints, and part 2 being Gods 

      (And those who scale to both)

      This thread was concluded a while ago and never closed. Is it safe to close this thread?

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    • Alonik wrote:
      That's just a feat for Minos. Besides Hyoga is stronger than Camus, so we have a complete basis of not being an Hyperbole of Hyoga.

      No, because it's just a hit of a Kyoto that does not stand out in destructive power. And Hyoga only uses the description of the technique, which is only a myth, because this is never confirmed in the manga, even a warrior of the level of a gold can destroy it with a blow.

      It is impressive that you do not accept a clear hyperbole, when you say that a description by a character of a fight is a hyperbole or the author showing that a weakened Suikyo can destroy the weapons of libra and libra cloth is a contradiction.

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    • I'm already preparing a gigantic thread for Saint Seiya, I apologize for the irrelevant conversation just to show the inconsistencies of the profiles between Kurumada and Okada. 

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    • Well, just to clarify the Taizen describes that the weapons of libra increase their power through the user's cosmos.

      Como sao feitas do mesmo material que as armaduras, conseguem armazenar a luz dentro delas e o seu poder vai aumentando conforme o cosmos se eleva.

      The version of Taizen translated in Portuguese, Spanish and Italian describes that the G.E. de Saga has the power of an exploding galaxy.

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    • Interesting, but why did you cut the part that says that even with the saints increase his cosmos, the weapon can smash stars?

      People who are not Brazilian may not have understood seeing in the scan, but I saw it.

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    • For those who are not Brazilian or don't understand portuguese, here a translation of Scan.

      I6e9Izk

      The weapons of the Libra Armor, the power that smashes the stars

      The weapons the Gold Saint's can use are engaged in the Libra Armor. As they are made of the same material as armor, they can store the light inside them and their power increases as cosmo rises. They are worthy of being called secret weapons capable of shattering the stars.

      Even in taizen the Libra Weapons are described with the user's elevated cosmos being able to shattering stars, suggest something higher than that, is NLF.

      So, this is my last imput here.

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    • The description is complete in the image. Just point out the most important thing, because weapons increase their power with the cosmos, just as armor increases their power. The power to destroy the stars is only the base force of the weapons, because even in the hands of a Bronze without domain of the Seventh these weapons can destroy stars.

      In the image they describe that their power increases with the user's cosmos, because they are made of the same material as the Cloths. This is not an NLF, because it is only claimed that its power can destroy the stars and can increase to an unknown level with the user's cosmos.

      This confirms what is shown in ND, where a weakened Suikyo can destroy the weapons of libra and libra cloth used by a young Dohko.

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    • The Japanese Raw of Taizen confirms that the G.E. de Saga has a power equivalent to the explosion of a galaxy.

      G.E. Saga in Taizen

      最大限にまで高めた小宇宙を、相手に叩きつけるサガ最大の必殺技で、その 驚異的破壊力は銀河の破滅にち匹敵すると言われる。

      The version of Taizen translated in Portuguese, Spanish and Italian describes that the G.E. de Saga has the power of an exploding galaxy.

      https://imgur.com/a/y2C7dLf

      Taizen explain the G.E. It has the power of the galaxy exploding and weapons of libra increase its power with the user's cosmos. This ends the debate.

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    • And Taizen contradicts herself. As I have shown before, then the level of "Destroy galaxies" is decreased to "Destroy her stars".

      And that's on the Microcosm scale yet, as I had said before, just confirmed what I said.

      • 最大限にまで高めた小宇宙を、
      • The microcosm that has been enhanced to the maximum,

      Libra Weapons increase her powers to the level to destroy stars, nothing less, and nothing more.

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    • So this thread is about Regen right?

      Only thing that I've seen that hasn't been argued against that was brought up in the middle of the thread is @Archaron wondering about Seiya possibly being a Conceptual existence of Hope with passive Fate manipulation and Miracle creation, which is a good idea for a revision but we haven't agreed on if the Regen revision goes through or not and now the thread is becoming a canon and power debate...

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    • A big fail.

      The microcosm is the cosmos (the energy that Saga and all StS characters use, the cosmos or microcosm inside his body), that's why they describe that Saga raises his cosmos or microcosm to the maximum to use the technique (as it appears in all translations, the translation is correct).

      【小宇宙(コスモ)】

      体内に存在する宇宙エネルギーのことをいう。 聖闘士は体内の小宇宙を爆発させることによって、音速に匹敵する速さの拳を放ち、物質を原子レベルで破壊するなど驚異的な力を持っている。

      The basic level of Libra's weapons is the power to destroy stars, but they increase their power with the user's cosmos such as armor.

      This confirms that you don't know the series.

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    • The micro cosmos is not the cosmos, this is a question of having become accustomed to american/brazilian translation.

      Masami Kurumada speaks of Micro Cosmo in the feeling of being a micro universe that holds the character's body, so he can create micro big bangs, and micro bursts of galaxies, and a lot other micro-activities.

      I can use two simple examples of when Cosmo was worked on a scale of its actual size: 

      1. Eschatos Dunamis
      2. Bronze Saints with Omega

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    • No, the microcosm is the cosmos, it even appears in this way on the official website of the franchise. The microcosm or cosmos is only the energy used by the Saints or the warriors of this universe.

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    • Usually, 小宇宙 would have コスモ furigana accompanying it.

      So yeah, it IS Cosmo.

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    • The basic level of Libra's weapons is the power to destroy stars, but they increase their power with the user's cosmos such as armor.

      No. The Basic level of them is not a star, this has never been established, it's just speculation.

      Unlike your statement, it is stated that when the saints combined and increased his cosmos to the maximum, the Libra Weapons can become Star level, not that she is Star on the basis.

      Yes, the Libra Weapons, with them all broken after their MAXIMUM capacity was used, was only described as a star to multi star.

      There's nothing to force Libra Weapon above the star level/Multi Star level, maximum capacity is that, and they break because they can't stand energy greater than that.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      Usually, 小宇宙 would have コスモ furigana accompanying it.

      So yeah, it IS Cosmo.

      This is going to be my last post on this thread, and just to show how Kurumada works.

      Actually, no.  Example:

      The translation of this is

      • "So to speak, your body is also a microcosm born with the Big Bang!!"

      On this entire page Kurumada used the same "cosmo" kanjis to write "microcosm" ("little universe", literally), but did not indicate the reading "cosmo", but rather the normal reading "shōuchū"

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    • Um....they didn't break from the amount of energy the Saints were putting in.

      They broke because they were hitting the Mainstay Pillar, a pillar supported by the cosmos of a god and explictly stated to be universal in durability.

      Reread the context of that scene.


      "If we do that, your BODY WILL BE SMASHED TO BITS AGAINST THAT PILLAR" followed by the page you showed, where they state that's what happened the Libra weapons.

      Then Seiya mentions a Saint "elevating his cosmos to the max " which means before they WEREN'T and just using the weapons as weapons.

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    • At no time did I say they broke because of their cosmos,  I said that even when libra weapons broken their maximum level was star.

      Please don't make strawman with my argument.

      Then Seiya mentions a Saint "elevating his cosmos to the max " which means before they WEREN'T and just using the weapons as weapons.

      They didn't even use the weapons after that. They just remembered that they could destroy the pillar by using atomic destruction to ignore the durability of the pillar.

      Seiya didn't destroy him with the Libra Weapons, but creating a miracle.

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    • For more evidence. Notice when Seiya and Hyoga defeat their opponents by burning their cosmos to the realm of the 7th sense, their cloths glow gold but return back to normal by the time they use the weapons just minutes later (no sparkles on the cloth, different look than the weapons)



      This indicates they aren't burning their csmos to the level of the 7th sense and are just using the weapons at base

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    • The official website describes quite well how the microcosm or cosmo of the Saints works.

      【小宇宙(コスモ)】

      体内に存在する宇宙エネルギーのことをいう。 聖闘士は体内の小宇宙を爆発させることによって、音速に匹敵する速さの拳を放ち、物質を原子レベルで破壊するなど驚異的な力を持っている。

      The information on the official site is more important than the theory of a fan, which has no support for what is shown in the story.

      Even the translation of that scene says that Saga raises its microcosm to the maximum, it is clear that they refer to the cosmos or microcosm, the energy used by the Saints.

      Insisting on this does not change what is described on the page or what is described in the series itself.

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    • Alonik wrote:
      At no time did I say they broke because of their cosmos,  I said that even when libra weapons broken their maximum level was star.

      Please don't make strawman with my argument.

      I'm not. Maybe you INTENDED to say that. But what you LITERALLY said was "There's nothing to force Libra Weapon above the star level/Multi Star level, maximum capacity is that, and they break because they can't stand energy greater than that."

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    • I'm referring to the energy of the star level, a little interpretation would be wiser. 

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    • This indicates they aren't burning their csmos to the level of the 7th sense and are just using the weapons at base

      And yet the Libra weapons broke down and were just said as Multi Star.

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    • But, that's not what you said, nor how that sentence breaks down in English.

      If you say "They broke because they can't stand energy greater than star level" when someone states "They can be boosted above their baseline star level with cosmos" the only interpretation of that is you refuting that they can not be boosted with cosmos above star level and would break if someone tried.

      That's....kind of how conversations work. I hate to bring my job (English teacher and writer) into this, but next time, try making your meaning clearer as the way you phrased it has a completely opposite meaning of your intent

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    • I think you got it wrong, because you didn't realize I was talking about the energy variation, that's a basic thing, which we have here to debate levels. 

      I recommend you take a look at the page of Attack Potency, and the tiers I was constantly mentioning in my comment.

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    • Alonik wrote:
      This indicates they aren't burning their csmos to the level of the 7th sense and are just using the weapons at base

      And yet the Libra weapons broke down and were just said as Multi Star.

      Yes. They broke down and were said to be multi-star. In Base, with no cosmos added. As shown above, they can increase with cosmos.

      Hell, in the same arc, Shun's chains, which are FAR weaker than the Libra Weapons, jump up to Gold Saint Level when he infuses 7th Sense level cosmos into them

      and in Episode G: Assassin, Shiryu uses a cosmos facimile (weaker than the real thing) of the Libra Shield to block Gram Sigurd's attacks, despite revived Capricorn Shura thinking it was impossible.and calling Gram Sigurd's attacks "beyond anything imaginable".

      ​​​​​

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    • Yes. They broke down and were said to be multi-star. In Base, with no cosmos added. As shown above, they can increase with cosmos.

      They don't go beyond High 4-C. You should have read the scans I sent showing that they combined their three cosmos to increase the power of the Libra Weapons, and in the end they were described only as High 4-C.

      It wasn't a base. This is false, and just keep repeating something that's already been shown otherwise, is just unreliable.

      Hell, in the same arc, Shun's chains, which are FAR weaker than the Libra Weapons, jump up to Gold Saint Level when he infuses 7th Sense level cosmos into them

      That means absolutely nothing. 

      and in Episode G: Assassin, Shiryu uses a cosmos facimile (weaker than the real thing) of the Libra Shield to block Gram Sigurd's attacks, despite revived Capricorn Shura thinking it was impossible.and calling Gram Sigurd's attacks "beyond anything imaginable".

      Episode G is one thing, this here is limited only to the classic, as has been talked about dozens of times up there. This conversation was just to show inconsistencies that nerf episode G.

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    • 1. I actually did read those scans, and you still haven't countered my point about them provably not being at seventh sense as their Cloths had not turned gold, there's no evidence of them going 7th sense, and it is only AFTER this that Seiya mentions "burning our cosmos to the maximum"

      That actually does mean something as it shows 7th Sense Cosmos amps artifacts far beyond their original power.

      3. Episode G is not "it's own thing". It's refered to as "Seito Gaiden" which means "Legitimate sequel".

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    • Alonik wrote:
      I think you got it wrong, because you didn't realize I was talking about the energy variation, that's a basic thing, which we have here to debate levels. 

      I recommend you take a look at the page of Attack Potency, and the tiers I was constantly mentioning in my comment.

      No, I completely understood what you meant. You're simply wrong. As shown above, simply adding cosmos to objects makes them jump up several tiers and the saints factually were not adding seventh sense cosmos to the Libra Weapons when they described them as "Star busting"

      As shown by a bronze chain jumping from Bronze Saint Level to Gold Saint Level simply by adding 7th sense cosmos to it, or Shiryu's cosmos facimile of the shield tanking attacks from Gram Sigurd, a guy who was scaring Shura. Remember, at this point, Shura is far beyond his teenage years when he already beat Galaxy Kreios and cut apart his Aster armor, which was stronger than his Aster shield that cut stars.

      Shiryu's Libra Shield was stated to be far greater than his cosmos facimile of it, and was tanking multiple attacks from Gram Sigurd.

      ​​

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    • I actually did read those scans, and you still haven't countered my point about them provably not being at seventh sense as their Cloths had not turned gold, there's no evidence of them going 7th sense, and it is only AFTER this that Seiya mentions "burning our cosmos to the maximum"

      I understand what is the problem here. First, you're wrong and at the same time you're right. But this can be answered by the simple question you raised

      1. provably not being at seventh sense as their Cloths had not turned gold

      The point is, the bronze cloths were revived by the blood of the gold saints, and the bronze cloths turned golden when Seiya and his friends burned their cosmos

      The problem is that Seiya on the Libra weapon issue, they were not with the Bronze Cloths, they were wearing the libra cloth (Shiryu), Aquarius cloth (Hyoga)  and Seiya was wearing the armor of Aiolos, the Sagittarius Cloth.

      Pegasus Cloth was destroyed by poseidon, and the seiya was burning its seventh sense.

      After that, why didn't it have to burn the seventh sense for Seiya to be able to gold his armor? it's for the simple reasons they were already golden, because they we're golden cloths.

      Now, you ask, why Seiya was using seventh sense with the Libra Weapons.

      The seventh sense was being burned, after all, the seventh sense is simply the cosmos. And seiya was burning the cosmo (Seventh Sense).

      Literally before they started using the Libras Weapon, they burned their seventh sense (cosmo) to go through poseidon.

      So they were using their potential in the Libra Weapons.

      And again, even with all this, they were shattered was still only cited as high level 4-C.

      End, my last comment on this thread.

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    • I would appreciate if somebody can provide a summary of the discussion and conclusions so far. Thanks.

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    • The discussion is based on Sera's request to divide the profiles by works. I agreed with her and showed even more of why the profiles needed to be divided, so we started debating the mistakes of current profiles, and because Kurumada's writing is inconsistent with Okada's writing. The conversation derailed so much that I had to explain up to almost the entire Poseidon Arc. 

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    • Okay. As I mentioned earlier, I am fine with if you split up the profile, as long as it is done properly, but you would have to do so properly, both in terms of good justifications for the statistics, proper editing structures, all the relevant standard categories added at the bottom of the pages, and tabbers for the specific characters added at the tops of the pages.

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    • Ant, I can do this, but at the moment it's impossible to simply separate the profiles. I'm preparing an great revision for Saint Seiya, and until at next week I'll finish it. 

      But the problem is that the current profiles have been building everything at each other's base, separating one, it's going to get worse.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Okay. As I mentioned earlier, I am fine with if you split up the profile, as long as it is done properly, but you would have to do so properly, both in terms of good justifications for the statistics, proper editing structures, all the relevant standard categories added at the bottom of the pages, and tabbers for the specific characters added at the tops of the pages.

      There is a disagreemenet about this by multiple people who are debating it. This issue will likely become something that will need staff appovral (as it might be controversial) and probably all knowlegable memebers. Though i don't think its a good idea to rush it right now as Matt is busy Irl. This went from a talk about Regeneration to Canon to a talk about Attack potency. It would be easier if a new threads was written out at a later time since this thread that was originally about regen somehow turned into something different via derailment...


      But as many people have demonstrated - There is no "Inconsistencies." The only thing that needs new profiles/Key/Dividers is G/A Gold Saints, and the other works are cross canon scalable that do not need divided up into separate profiles.

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    • I agree about that this shouldn't be rushed, and that it needs Matthew's attention, and since he is busy with very important real life issues, it will have to wait for a while.

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    • A FANDOM user
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