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  • Hello, everyone. DRB here. First, I want to wish everyone a Happy New Year and I hope you all enjoyed your holiday. Now then, I like to make a major revision. I haven’t really been active on the franchise this year tbh but it’s due to the fact I was more focus on another franchise at the time and I had a new schedule regarding RL, specifically my current occupation, which some of you might notice. Plus, there’s nothing much that happened in the franchise for me to check anyway…..at least this year. So…..I decided to do a little revision after looking at some of the additional pages and previous discussions about the franchise. I, unfortunately, still have rather strict schedule, so I won't be able to reply immediately, should anyone else have questions.                                               

    Gentle Pull Downgrade

    Let’s first start with, arguably, the biggest downgrade in the franchise. At first, I was against due to the multiple similar arguments recurring every time it was brought up but after giving it some thought and watching the ending again, I’m going to have to think otherwise. I believe the dialogue did not give enough context of it being a supreme being or some kind of being that’s above everything and the dialogue itself doesn't seem to be geared towards all dimensions in the verse but rather just one. It seems that Rosalina is just describing a mysterious force rather than a being. I was told there was some kind of interview scan for this but I don’t ever recalling it existing. I believe it’s best to downgrade it to Unknown, from the speed to the AP. Ask for its abilities, I think we can limit it to Fate Manipulation and being able to defy Space and Time. If possible, we can also give it the possibility to scale it from the Grand Star but only if there’s enough reasons for it.

    Shadoo Downgrade

    For those who don’t know this character, Shadoo is an extra hidden boss that can be fought after completing the 100 Pits of Trails in Flopside, which can only be accessed after beating Super Paper Mario. I was unaware that he was given a profile until a few weeks ago. Naturally, being a boss that can be fought after beating the main game, he’s harder/stronger than the final boss, Super Dimentio…….HOWEVER........this is only due to game mechanics.

    Shadoo is only stronger gameplay-wise, not lore-wise. Being created from the Ancients does not make him comparable or confirms him possessing the power they do and he doesn't have anything hinting to be associated with either of the hearts. Plus, Mario and co. weren’t equipped with the Pure Hearts in order to fight him. If there's any other support for this character's rating, please clarify. Otherwise, the 2-B rating has got to go.

    Villains and Random Mooks’ Tiers

    Sometime last year, Ant has informed me on a profile about a Chain Chomp being powerscaled from Mario with reasons being largely based off of game mechanics. I cannot stress enough that we do not powerscale random enemies to the mainstream characters due to the sheer fact they confront them or hurt them, PIS or otherwise. We don’t randomly scale a Heartless to Sora, even with the event of them dogpiling on him in KH2, so the same can’t be done with ANY random enemy in the verse. If one do not agree with the stats of certain enemies, feel free to provide scans or calcs that proven otherwise but powerscaling is out of the question. These enemies only serve to be obstacles to these characters, not comparable adversaries. The sole exceptions are actual characters who are based off these enemies eg. Goombella.  

    The Tribe of the Ancients

    Thankfully, the verse is still able to have top tiers in the form of The Ancient Tribe. According to the lore introduced in Super Paper Mario, The Ancients have not only created several universes but also created the Pure Hearts. It’s not confirmed that they created every single known world, however, so we can’t assume that they are responsible for the existence of  all dimensions or worlds. The members of the tribe possesses powerful magic and intelligence, however, they are rather weak physically speaking. Due to this, they created Pixl to cultivate the world via manual labor after they create one. This would lead to the creation of the Pixl Queen who rebelled against the tribe. 12 Pixl and their Ancient partners confronted her but only one pair have survived.

    I should note that this doesn't mean every single member, specifically the descendants of the Tribe and the ones known in current game, are powerful. After the war, it turns out that the Ancients powers have rapidly decreased and it became irreversable. This is due to the fact they sacrificed all their powers to nerf the Pixl in order to prevent this from happening again, which explains Count Bleck, a member of the Tribe of Darkness, needing the Chaos Heart and why only the Heroes of Light and the Pure Hearts could stop the Chaos Heart. This also supports the reason to downgrade Shadoo.

    Due to this information, we can scale The Ancients up to 2-B via Creating the Pure Hearts and multiple worlds and unlike Shadoo, the Pixl Queen can actually be scaled off from them due to being able to fight them. But Lifting and Striking Strength has to be Unknown due to The Ancients not being known for their physical strength.

    WarioWorld Revisions

    For those of you unaware, a revision on WarioWorld was held a few months ago. According to the description of the game, the main antagonist, the Black Jewel, was stolen by Wario, who mistaken it for a treasure. Once the Black Jewel was awakened, it actually created an entire universe. Despite being able to confront it head on, we decided to regard it as an outlier for Wario for obvious powerscaling issues. However, there are characters who actually can be scaled off of him.

    According to the intro, the Spritelings were able to overpower it and seal it way. Should a profile be made for the Spirtelings, it’s probably should worth noting that the power is directly proportional to how many of them they are, since before restoring the world, one of the Spitelings stated that how huge Wario’s castle is dependent on how many he was able to save.

    Rosalina Revision

    Finally, let’s talk about Rosalina. Last year, she was downgraded due to the lack of proper context of the feat that occurred in Super Mario Galaxy. It was suggested to scale her off the Lumas from the fact that possessing multiple of their powers and should be comparable to them due to being their mother, as well as, being able to summon them but the argument against this is her being human and a surrogate mother, instead of her actual mother. This also lead to another reason people were against scaling her to the Lumas, which is Lumas being made of stars and according to Super Mario Galaxy, they can only be created from and quite possibly the reason or source of power of the Lumas’ abilities. 

    R stuff

    However, according to the Mario Kart 8 manual, she happens to be made of stars, which is the same thing the Lumas are made of and where they originate from. While it’s true that in her backstory, she starts off as an ordinary human, this information completely debunks the fact she is still just is a mere human with magic powers. This means she only human in terms of appearance since her physiology is entirely cosmic now.

    Now Rosalina still has no proof about her being involved with the universe recreation feat or any strong support of anything similar, however, she can have the Grand Star within her profile. She is its original owner and wielder before Bowser stole them and retained them at the end of the game. The only argument I can see against this is that fact that she never used it but this seems more of a case of “will she”, rather than “can she”. This is a similar argument with Mario and the Star Rod (With me being against including it in his inventory btw), only it doesn’t work because not only Mario never use the Star Rod or has any possible indication that he’s able to use it, he’s never associated with it or its power. He’s only known to fight against it. If Bowser is able to use the Grand Star in various ways, both in his schemes and himself, his son, Bowser Jr, can comprehend in being able to use it’s power in some of his machines such as his lava reactor, and even Mario and Luigi is capable of using it to create Time-Space portals, then someone with her vast knowledge on it and the universe itself, as well as sporting enough power to create a barrier to tank it, should logically be able to as well. Just because she hasn’t use it, doesn’t mean she can’t.

    Conclusion

    The Gentle Pull is downgraded into Unknown and its Speed and Abilities will be removed altogether.

    The Gentle Pull will no longer be referred to as a supreme deity due to the vague dialogue and it’s only known abilities will be its ability to manipulate fate and defying space and time. Its influence will not be noted to have an affected across different worlds. It’s possible to scale it off from the Grand Star but only with enough valid reasons.

    Shadoo will be downgraded from 2-B to the base stats of the characters who fought him.

    The Tribe of Ancients and Pixl Queen will be 2-B.

    Spirtelings will be Low 2-C but with specific notes.

    Rosalina in base will still be 4-C. This time it will be from 4-C to 3-C via with the current reasons in her profile, as well as, being comparable to Lumas. The Grand Star will be listed under her standard equipment, being it's owner and original wielder, giving her another key.

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    • I agree with all of this.

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    • We are still working on 4-A Mario bros but this seems ok

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    • If the interview scan doesn't exist then the Gentle Pull profile should just be deleted tbh. Even then, we'd just be left with a profile with completely unknown statistics and abilities based off of somewhat vague statements.

      Shadoo downgrade is fine, especially since the main cast did not need to power up at all to fight him.

      Rosalina upgrade is fine, grand star key is fine as well for the same reason that Luigi has a pure hearts key. If he's never used it or shown an intention to use it, Mario should have the Star Rod removed from his equipment (although I can't find it on his profile, not sure he has it).

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    • He doesn't have it on his profile.

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    • Actually, I'm pretty sure the interview exists, but might have been asking the wrong people. Perhaps it was Azathoth who knew about it, but regardless. I suppose a temporary downgrade for Gentle Pull at least till it's found may be in order.

      I strongly agree with Shadoo's downgrades + he's not even stronger than Super Dimentio. Just look at this.

      I agree that the mooks should scale from their own feats; but it was found on another thread that there was a 9-A and an 8-C calculations that fodder enemies have performed. May link those later. Here and here.

      Tribe of the Ancients stuff is interesting, I can agree to that. And we already had multiple discussions about the size of the multiverse being really big degrees of 2-B.

      Wario World stuff is good.

      Rosalina stuff is mostly good, but there was another thread proposing upgrades for her. Her magic barriers still have Universal durability, and she still has her reality warping powers. Which it's her magic that sustaining the power of the force fields. Perhaps she isn't physically tier 2 and would just be High 4-C physically, but the star additions are good.

      Lastly, there are other upgrades planned. We have found several more 4-A feats from Super Mario Sunshine and and Yoshi's Story.

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    • Also there is a Bowser rework here made by @DustCollector still a WIP But its pretty good actually. Would like a mario rework like this one

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    • Bump

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    • Im fine with gentle pull being unknown for the meantime

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    • Well, I suppose I agree with most of this. Trying to get this seen by others

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    • The so-called Gentle Pull has been discussed in great detail on this thread (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3415906) and whilst a similar conclusion was reached, it's speed was deemed worthy of being ominpresent, and its range was considered being upgraded. As there has been much more discussion on the topic there, I think the conclusions of that thread should be the revisions applied to the profile instead.

      The Shadoo downgrade feels like a makes a lot of sense, though I have seen this form of scaling, even outside of JRPG settings where stats of bosses can be analysed, being used on this wiki. It still feels like an inflated result though, and I don't particularly agree with the idea "order of bosses = strength of bosses" by default anyway, so I think this downgrade is a step in the right direction.

      Whilst I've seen a few folks, who are mainly more conservative when it comes to this franchise, argue Chain Chomps may very well scale to Mario (also, there are statements in Prima Guides that seem to treat them as a dangerous enemy best avoided), I can see why this would be the case and so I wouldn't really mind this downgrade. With that said, I'm neutral on the topic.

      The proposal for the two civilsations seem pretty fair.

      Rosalina being comparable to the Lumas makes a lot of sense, I feel, though for reasons discussed on this thread (https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3799691), such as this seeming way too vague for the folks at Prima to write this bio with the intention of the reader clearly getting this interpretation and it being more comparable to the real world principle (which she references at the end of SMG) that the chemical elements, which compose basically everything we know, were indeed made by stars (or... just "ace stuff", "tough stuff", "great stuff" boasting, considering these bios are advertising the characters to the player). With that said, I don't think it severs the conclusion in terms of scaling exactly... As for the Grand Star, considering Rosalina is listed as a wielder on its profile, I think it's more than safe to add it to her equipment.

      Stuff addressed in the comments seems to be leaching in from other threads, so I'd rather give my thoughts there. All in all, a pretty nice CRT.

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    • This is another CTR we are discussing but since this is first in the making we can talk about that CTR here as well such as ugrades and abilities and very strong 2-B characters

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    • Yeah. Order of bosses sequentially scaling to higher and higher levels of strength depends on the verse, tbh. Sometimes it's legit, like a villain sending in weaker enemies and graduating to their elites as you keep beating their ranks, but in cases like Zelda or Mario, we need proper context.

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    • Honestly, idk if this will go anywhere, but I'm of the opinion that the "gentle pull" doesnt deserve a page given it's a vague concept offhandedly mentioned by Rosalina with no real definition. We have no idea if it's the concept of love, a person, player interference, etc... 

      They leave it incredibly open ended on purpose, and I dont see the point of it having a page here when it's hard to ever pit it in a real Vs scenario while its existence is only supported by a character who uses vague language to describe it and the concept is never touched again.

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    • People do think Rosalina sort of references it in the second game when you save her from having her comet drained. But yeah, It's all just speculative.

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    • @Emile, Mario didn't have or need the Pure Hearts to beat Shadoo; where as Count Bleck and Super Dimentio are both 100% invincible without them. That's another reason for Shadoo's downgrade. Plus, look at the video I linked regarding him.

      Chain Chomps do not scale to Mario for multiple reasons. In Super Mario Bros 3, then can get easily one-shotted by Hammer Mario, and they aren't portrayed as being all that big in that game. They're not nearly as big or tough as the Thwomps and Whomps; Thwomps also get one-shotted by Hammer Mario. Plus, Mario regularly defeats chain chomps who are just considered fodder enemies in the RPGs; meaning they're definitely far below the bosses.

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    • I mean, to be fair, Whomps also get easily dispatched by Mario via a simple Ground Pound nowadays. I wouldn't say Chain Chomps are lesser than them. The only one I can see that being true for is a Thwomp. But a Whomp isn't scaling above a Chain Chomp in my eyes.

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    • That's more so a weak point, rather than a physical status, but okay. Plus in the 3D Mario games, Whomps do give more damage than chain chomps usually. But we don't make Thwomps Tier 4 either.

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    • I agree with chain chomps not being tier 4. Also I still want to know what are we all agreeing to the upgrades and abilities cause there is alot imo. mostly:

      1. Bowser rework

      2. 4-A upgrades

      3. Shiny Paper Mario abilities

      4. Strong 2-B characters

      5. The ancients

      6. 2-B star rod etc.

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    • We'll deal with all of that later, let's focus on this CRT first before tackling that one.

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    • Yeah, all of that should be saved for another thread; for now, let's focus on the OP's stuff. We don't want DRB feeling overwhelmed.

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    • Oh ok just was trying to bring it all in one thread

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    • HomestuckLover1 wrote:
      Honestly, idk if this will go anywhere, but I'm of the opinion that the "gentle pull" doesnt deserve a page given it's a vague concept offhandedly mentioned by Rosalina with no real definition. We have no idea if it's the concept of love, a person, player interference, etc... 

      They leave it incredibly open ended on purpose, and I dont see the point of it having a page here when it's hard to ever pit it in a real Vs scenario while its existence is only supported by a character who uses vague language to describe it and the concept is never touched again.

      I agree with all of this actually. At the very least it should be matchbanned since it's a completely unknown and speculative entity

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    • This seems to make sense to me.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      @Emile, Mario didn't have or need the Pure Hearts to beat Shadoo; where as Count Bleck and Super Dimentio are both 100% invincible without them. That's another reason for Shadoo's downgrade.

      I mean, I partially feel like the latter point was a reason for the 2-B rating (Mario and co couldn't attack Bleck, and later Super Dimentio, because of the forcefield/aura from the Chaos Heart, but as soon as that protection was taken away by the Pure Hearts, they could combat them... Shadoo not having any shield to have to break through being a reason why they didn't need the Pure Hearts), but I can understand why not having the Pure Hearts makes the downgrade all the more valid. I was more so just bringing up an odd little practice we have here that might have been why Shadoo was given such an inflated tier.

      Plus, look at the video I linked regarding him.

      The cheese is real! Also, hey look, it's my namesake.

      Chain Chomps do not scale to Mario for multiple reasons. In Super Mario Bros 3, then can get easily one-shotted by Hammer Mario, and they aren't portrayed as being all that big in that game. They're not nearly as big or tough as the Thwomps and Whomps; Thwomps also get one-shotted by Hammer Mario. Plus, Mario regularly defeats chain chomps who are just considered fodder enemies in the RPGs; meaning they're definitely far below the bosses.

      I feel like that Chain Chomp we see in SM64 could smash through the Whomps with absolutely no issue... With that said, I can see the arguments for and against certain high tiered enemies, so yeah, I'll stay neutral. (Hammer Mario is just OP, he can one-shoot Boom Boom and everything. If the Koopalings didn't resist his hammers, he'd probaby one shot them too!)

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    • How mucn input is needed here? We got Ant convinced and we're all pretty much okay with this. Just wondering.

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    • It can probably be applied.

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    • I feel like "the Gentle Pull" should still retain its omnipresent speed and multiversal range due to its true name, according to Rosalina, being the desire to be reunited with someone special to you, which is present in games like Partner's in Time, where Peach travels back in time and enters a change of events where Shroobs invade, yet Mario will still be there to be reunited with her, Super Paper Mario, where even traversing the Underwhere and Overthere (basically heaven and hell, thus other worlds), Mario will still be reunited with the Luigi and Peach (and I supposed Bowser since they were allies at this time), among other cases (such as going to the centre of the universe in the SMG games, going to Booster's tower in a retconned geography in Mario RPG, etc). Basically, it very much so transcends space and time and its range shows this, as addressed on the thread dedicated to this force linked above. Whilst Rosalina's proposed classification seems a sketchy and it maybe being too harsh on high tier enemies like Chomps, everything else seem pretty fair to be applied.

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    • So far this is going pretty well

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    • I agree Omnipresent and Multiversal range is good to keep for Gentle Pull, but I'm against page deletion unless we want to add passive Fate Manipulation for various Mario characters.

      Also, Chain Chomps vary in size and possibly tier. Perhaps the Giant Chain Chomps are stronger than Whomps, but they still don't scale from Mario regardless.

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    • I think that we agreed to give it an unknown tier, but not to delete it.

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    • Yes I rather have unknown but no deletion but the fate_manipulation would be for just Mario and luigi mostly

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I agree Omnipresent and Multiversal range is good to keep for Gentle Pull, but I'm against page deletion unless we want to add passive Fate Manipulation for various Mario characters.

      Except the "gentle pull" isnt described as something the Mario characters are controlling or causing. The deletion in my honest opinion is absolutely necessary since the "gentle pull" itself has literally almost no real information on it. If we gave a profile page for every supposed concept or character that only exists in an offhanded mention with no information outside of that, this entire wiki would be filled with nonsense.

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    • Does the Gentle Pull actually have fate manipulation? And does it protect Mario? If so then we can add it to Mario since this is basically the same thing for Ness.

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: Does the Gentle Pull actually have fate manipulation? And does it protect Mario? If so then we can add it to Mario since this is basically the same thing for Ness.

      It's implied to be some force that brings Mario towards a happy ending, but that could very well just be his love for Peach, player manipulation, etc... It's hard to call fate manipulation, when, again, we have almost no information on it.

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    • I don't think that's for his love for Peach because he's never gotten to be with her. Anyways, if it brings Mario a "happy" ending that seems to imply that his adventures will have him winning due to the Gentle Pull which sounds like fate manipulation. What does everyone else think?

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    • Seem reasonable. Plus he can have resistance to fate_manipulation via Dark Prognosticus since they already knew that years before hand that 4 heroes were gonna be consumed by the void

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: I don't think that's for his love for Peach because he's never gotten to be with her. Anyways, if it brings Mario a "happy" ending that seems to imply that his adventures will have him winning due to the Gentle Pull which sounds like fate manipulation. What does everyone else think?

      Their romance is completely official though, with many pieces of media to prove it. And that doesnt mean in the slightest that his love for her doesnt blatantly guide him toward saving her all the time.

      Again, its not something he controls, and we dont even know if its an outside force or something about him in particular. It shouldnt be mentioned unless you're going to put "possible fate manipulation" as opposed to saying he just has it when we have nothing to prove it.

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    • Yes, Mario loves Peach. But they are not an actual couple. Sure he saves her partially because he loves her, but that doesn't mean "happy" ending refers to that.

      Ness has fate manipulation for the same reason, he doesn't actually have it, but it's on his profile because he's always protected.

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    • That should preferably be substantiated on the GP's profile.

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    • Again, Ness has the exact same thing for the same reason.

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: Yes, Mario loves Peach. But they are not an actual couple. Sure he saves her partially because he loves her, but that doesn't mean "happy" ending refers to that.

      Ness has fate manipulation for the same reason, he doesn't actually have it, but it's on his profile because he's always protected.

      Her getting mad at Mario once in their entire life of knowing each other suddenly makes them not an actual couple?

      SMRL-Line-Mario-Sunset


      Here's some decisive evidence then in case you somehow needed it.

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    • Maverick Zero X wrote: That should preferably be substantiated on the GP's profile.

      i would prefer the Gentle Pull profile not even be here since theres no real information on it. I would say the exact same about trying to include it on Mario character profiles based only on theories about its nature

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    • That wasn't her getting mad at Mario, that was literally her rejecting him.

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: That wasn't her getting mad at Mario, that was literally her rejecting him.

      She rejected a forced AF proposal from both him and Bowser for being too in her face. That doesnt mean in the slightest that she and Mario arent in a clearly obviously romantic relationship. I even gave you cold hard evidence, but in case you want more, here you go:

      Mario-Advance-Party-Mario-and-Princess-Peach zps5b615d90
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    • She could've just said no to Bowser only but said no to both. All the artwork is irrelevant when Odyssey is the most recent depiction of their relationship. Why are we even assuming happy ending is related to love? The ending for Galaxy didn't even have to do anything with Mario and Peach's relationship. We definitely shouldn't say it's about love.

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    • DatOneWeeb wrote: She could've just said no to Bowser only but said no to both. All the artwork is irrelevant when Odyssey is the most recent depiction of their relationship. Why are we even assuming happy ending is related to love? The ending for Galaxy didn't even have to do anything with Mario and Peach's relationship. We definitely shouldn't say it's about love.

      She said no to both because they were both shoving flowers in her face.

      The Line stickers were made post Odyssey actually, so even that gif of Mario and Peach blatantly being a couple is the latest thing about their relationship.

      The ending for Galaxy 2 is where the "Gentle Pull" becomes a thing, and Rosalina mentions it in relation to Mario reuniting with Peach, so thats definitely a reason to consider love as a possibility. Im not saying thats 100 percent what it is though.

      My point this whole time has just been that the gentle pull is too vague to consider an ability or identity worthy of a profile.

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    • So is somebody experienced willing to update The Gentle Pull profile?

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    • Its @DRB thread so he will mostly change it but we need to wait for his return or if someone can contact home that'll be nice. I also think @DDM is Experienced with gentle pull

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    • I don't mind implementing it, I just want to make sure there's enough support for the changes before doing so.

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    • I have unlocked Gentle Pull for Dino Ranger Black, so he can take care of the needed edits.

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    • Taken care of. 

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    • Thank you, do I need to lock it back up? It's not quite Tier 2 anymore.

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    • If not, then I think there's no need to.

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    • That's one step out of the way; and I think Shadoo's downgrade is agreed upon.

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    • That's taken care of as well.

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    • Welp that's a good start

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    • It's only the Ancients, the Wario World stuff, and the Rosalina stuff left.

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • What else we have left on this CTR

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    • Aside the Rosalina updates, there's just a few new profiles to make.

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    • So all we gotta do is change Rosalinas stats to High 4-C to 3-C with the reasoning of being comparable to the base cast and Lumas and add a new Low 2-C key with the Grand Stars as well as putting them down as standard equipment, and I guess this is more minor but also remove the "far superior to Grand Star Bowser" reasoning for her speed since that's not really a thing anymore since her downgrade, she's obviously still scale to the same calc as currently but for being comparable to the main cast. The new profiles don't have to be made anytime soon so for them we just need to keep in mind the correct stats when they are eventually made.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I agree Omnipresent and Multiversal range is good to keep for Gentle Pull, but I'm against page deletion unless we want to add passive Fate Manipulation for various Mario characters.

      Also, Chain Chomps vary in size and possibly tier. Perhaps the Giant Chain Chomps are stronger than Whomps, but they still don't scale from Mario regardless.

      Is this still a thing?

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    • Also, the other big thing I want to add to this discussion is I wouldn't consider all "fodder" enemies in Mario to be far below him in stats. If we assumed they were all completely useless next to Mario, there wouldnt be any realistic danger for him in any of his adventures. 

      There's also plenty of instances of goombas and other Bowser army fodder canonically being strong enough to fend off Koopalings, for it to be called consistent. 

      Personally, I'd change up the Mario fodder profiles to mention that their stats largely vary based on appearance and plot.

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    • True, enemies such as Boo's can scale to Mario if they fuse together into a giant Boo as shown in The Thousand Year Door. Or the green Goombas who can take large amounts of damage when they boost their attack powers.

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    • Atomic Boo is technically a Miniboss, but I don't think we should scale the Hyper Goombas or Gloombas either; they're still mooks that can be easily beaten. Also, besides game mechanics, there's far too much PIS. It's like Spider Man getting taken out by a couple of typical street thugs or Superman getting knocked out by a taser. The armies taking out the Koopalings also appears to be PIS. It's just another example of authors no caring about power levels and power scaling.

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    • Or it's not PIS because they've never shown feats beyond being killed by, even at his lowest, a small city plumber with hypersonic speed. Bowser's Minions and Bowser Jr.'s Journey are consistent examples of Minions being capable of more than just being one-shot by anything. Hell, the fact that, canonically, the Goombas who fight Mario in SS survive their match with him is worthy of something. Goombas also can be stomped pretty flat by Yoshi and pop back up so they may even have a form of regen?

      Although even in those games, Roy easily dealt with dozens upon dozens of the minions charging at him as he neared Bowser's castle, and he only collapsed in exhaustion near the entrance. Even then, there's still a few of those potentially town level feats discussed in the other thread to worry about regarding the minions. Uproots can also retract their legs at almost the same speed as Torkdrift's lasers, since frame conparisons are apparently a viable thing. Practically any enemy can also break large, stone blocks.

      Boom Boom is also a miniboss but IIRC people consider him Large Star.

      Though perhaphs this is better for the discussion thread or a new thread.

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    • Oh hey I didn't notice this thread until it was applied. Since agreeing won't help much now, I'll just say thanks for putting in the work to make and apply this thread.

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    • So what is left to do here?

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    • The Gentle Pull and Shadoo have already been downgraded.

      The Tribe of Ancients, Pixl Queen, and Spritelings don't have profiles yet, so there's nothing to do with their proposed ratings until someone makes them.

      I'm not sure what needs to be done with the tiers of "villains and random mooks", the Chain Chomp page hasn't had that sort of bad scaling for a while now. But there does still seem to be discussion on this topic.

      The only actionable thing that needs to be done is updating Rosalina's profile.

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    • Okay.

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    • @DDM Hyper Goombas only scale when they boost their attack power. They're considered extremely dangerous enemies in the game because of how much damage they take. They can be glass cannons sure, but their ap scales to Mario via stat boosts.

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    • I mean, "fodder" are also what Mario uses to overcome the challenges he faces in Odyssey as well, so fodder being able to compete with bosses isn't inconsistent even in the main game. And if Odyssey 2 is released then that's 4 games now where fodder can harm bosses and enemies Mario has some struggle with.

      Like, it shouldn't be written off simply because we have the idea that fodder are conplete dogshit when we've seen how incredible they can really be quite a few times now.

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    • @Fox and @DatOneWeeb, it doesn't matter how frequent it was, the problem is just from the idea of consistency. Not every game portrays as being Stellar or Massively FTL+, similar to not every comic portrays Superman as being Stellar or Massively FTL+. Feats both high end and low end, as well as "Anti-Feats" are all over the place. Mario can vary from Tier 9 to Tier 2; Bowser getting bested by his own minions is less of a feat for the mooks and more of an anti-feat for Bowser. It should be passed as PIS. Same with Mario overcoming challenges, that's just a casual low end feat. Much like Superman struggling to lift up an airplane. The Hyper Goomba example also doesn't work because glass cannons would violate Newton's Third Law. And Mario can just use Parry/Counter on Hyper Goombas, so... Anyway, we should only scale mooks from their own feats that were calculated and accepted.

      I agree that Rosalina stuff is the last focus while the new profiles can just be made later.

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    • How is it an anti feat for bowser and PIS. Just because lower end feats exist doesn’t mean you can write off feats for not fitting with your scaling. Your scaling would be the problem in this case. Also there are other glass canons on this site so why are Hyper Goomba not working with physics the issue in the same setting where fire breathing turtles turn mushroom men to bricks and are burned alive in lava only to come back in the next game fine?

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    • Not the point, If Hyper Goombas were glass cannons, their head bonk would be an instant suicide attack. Most glass cannons either have a weapon being a tier above their own, or stuff like magic being far above their physical stats. Tier 4 striking strength combined with durability far less than that doesn't work at all. Don't confuse Newton's Third Law violations with various hax. And we already discussed the fodder mooks vs bosses vs main characters so many times. We can't just say, "Screw all logic, everybody is Tier 4." There has to be gaps between fodder characters, mid tiers, and god tiers.

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    • The gaps don’t need to be that large though. Also you failed to answer the argument for glass cannons existing, this setting gives 0 shits about physics a lot of the time so why should we when indexing them? If FTL travel and magic is possible then why not glass cannons?

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    • Glass cannons are possible, just not characters with striking strength far above durability that aren't suicide attacks. Seriously, we'd be having a lot more glass cannons if we did ignore Newton's Third law due to the whole "Impressive striking strength, but no existing durability feat on that level."

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    • We probably should of the setting doesn’t take physics into account.

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    • Medeus is likely correct in that this usually goes under Game Mechanics.

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    • I mean if Newton's third law "didn't exist" in Mario, no character would even be able to walk

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    • Also to be honest, I'm not a big fan of giving Rosalina a Low 2-C key. Even if she had the Grand Star in her possession, it doesn't mean she was using its power for anything, and from what I recall there's no lore in the game that indicates she does.

      Rest seems fine

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • You still don’t get the point somehow. Stol trying to apply physics to settings that don’t care.

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    • We shouldn't assume physics no longer applies unless it's explicitly stated

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    • Shouldn’t feats still trump statements in that instance? If a feat seemingly contradicts physics then why apply physics to this setting unless needed?

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    • What I'm saying is that we should look for another explanation, rather than assuming it has to be because physics doesn't apply.

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    • I mean if it something minor such as glass cannons then just ignoring the feat is a worse explanation. This isn’t a science based verse, sometimes the devs don’t care, so why should we.

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    • Because we look for the most accurate, quantifiable ratings, and the best way to quantify something is through scientific means.

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    • Wouldn’t acknowledging that some feats don’t really work with science accounted for (glass cannons or FTL feats, which we allow for some reason.) be a more accurate result? If speed stats can ignore science, why not AP or dura?

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    • We don't accept glass cannons though, unless their attacks are not based off of their striking strength. As for FTL feats, the FTL page explains it.

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    • I know that. You just pointed out the contradiction. If we allow FTL feats then why not glass cannons.

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    • Sorry but the fact remains that we don't scale random enemies to recurring characters for those reasons. Mere instances of game mechanics and PIS (Plot relevant or not) does not make the mooks on par with the cast, even to a lower degree. If you disagree with their current stats, bring up their own feats or calculations. We don't scale Heartless, Skeletons, or Deku Nuts to their respective protagonists, we will not do the same thing for Goombas or any other enemies. Period. Anyway, I'll start working on profiles of the Ancients and a few characters from another verse. Meanwhile, let me know the decision on the other revisions.  

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    • NotAMarioFan(lol)
      NotAMarioFan(lol) removed this reply because:
      Oops
      00:07, January 13, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • The other revision is on this Thread

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    • And gj on the this revision

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    • I was never suggesting they should scale to the cast. And we've mentioned their own feats before lol But yeah. Not point to be in this thread anymore. Upgrades and downgrades were agreed upon beyond the Rosalina being made of cosmix dust thing that I dunnl if you touched upon

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    • Bump

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    • Has this been applied yet?

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    • Not yet but it's in the making I presume

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    • Okay. Thanks for the reply.

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    • What would the ancients abilities have btw?

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    • Bump

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    • You can remind DRB via his message wall if you wish.

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    • I'm just bumping to keep the thread active I think hes creation a page for the ancients from this thread. But I'll Message him soon

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    • Okay.

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    • I'm still working on the page, just that RL matters made it longer than it should be. It should be uploaded by tonight.

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    • Alrighty cant wait to see it...

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    • I made the profile. There's are other profiles I wish to make but it's on another verse. By the time I'm done, let me know on the decision on the last revision.

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    • Nice! The Ancients' profile looks great.

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    • Would it be okay if I added images to the profile?

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    • Yes, the ancients page looks good to me. Well done

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • Looks really nice. Only question I have is, what type of Acausality do the Ancients have?

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    • I'd say just type 1; it's nothing beyond they can live even if the timeline they were born from was erased. Basically, that means they live even if there past is completely erased, but I think think that qualifies as anything beyond type 1. I don't recall any info of them having countless avatars across space-time to qualify for type 3, or characters with precognition being unable to predict their moves. Little is known other than what's already collected.

      But I'd say Type 1 is reasonable.

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    • Profile looks cool, but I do have a couple of issues with it. If they were stated to be weak physically, why do they have multiversal striking strength? Do we know if their fight against the Pixl Queen was physical, because if it's not stated then I'd assume they fought via their magic.

      Supergenius seems like a bit of a stretch without solid feats. Extraordinary Genius intelligence is already enough to greatly outsmart anyone else in the verse, given how much the rating can vary.

      Acausality Type 1 seems fine

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    • @Agnaa It's Type 1. It's based from Count Bleck, who was a decendant of the Tribe of Darkness, who also had this ability in his profile. I forgot to include that detail. Sorry.

      It's possible they at least have the striking power with their magic abilities going by the members who fought against her. If this is invalid, remove the Striking Strength by all means.

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    • I'd think rewriting it as Unknown physically, possibly Multiversal with magic/telekinesis would be better. Or just Unknown and move the justifications to durability.

      And Supergenius is reserved for characters who can craft Tier 2 or above reality warping technologies from scratch. Extrodinary Genius is basically the mind of a futuristic super computer. And Genius is basically what the worlds smartest people who ever lived IRL are.

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    • Very well, move the the justification to the durability and make it Unknown.

      I see.....ok, change their intelligence to Extraordinary Genius then.

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    • I have done so.

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    • Thank you. 

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    • So what is left to do here?

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    • A profile for the Spritelings is WIP, and then I think we're addressing Rosalina last.

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    • Okay.

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    • So what else do we need to finish before moving to the other Thread

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    • @NotAMarioFan just answered that three posts above...

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    • @DDM Just a quick question about the ancients intelligence. Going by what you said for super genius needing to make tier 2 technologies does that mean that the purity heart doesn’t count as evidence? or are we not counting the four sages when discussing the ancients profile?

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: And Supergenius is reserved for characters who can craft Tier 2 or above reality warping technologies from scratch. Extrodinary Genius is basically the mind of a futuristic super computer. And Genius is basically what the worlds smartest people who ever lived IRL are.

      Nothing about the definition says it requires tier 2 reality warping technologies, and requiring tier 2 sounds ludicrous to me. Hell, Lum (Urusei Yatsura) is one of the examples given and that verse doesn't go above tier 4.

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    • Lum can craft alternate customised realities if I remember correctly.

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    • Oh yeah. They did create the Pure Hearts, didn't they.

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    • As far as I can tell from the profile, those realities are only the size of a classroom, and as such I don't think could count for tier 2.

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    • I meant that as an example, not that it was a requirement. But Supergenius basically means being able to casually craft master-pieces that have "Out of this world" functions. With Tier 2 or above levels of reality warping being a prime example.

      If it requires many years to construct stuff like that, it would be extraordinary genius. And also, It needs to be clear that crafting the reality warping devises also requires them doing it through scientific intellect and not stuff like forming Tier 2 magical artifacts. Pure Hearts are more like magical artifacts rather than technology.

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    • Lum can basically create devices that warp reality any way she wants at the drop of a hat. That is enough to qualify, even though she lacks common sense otherwise.

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    • I think Lum's fine where she is at.

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    • Yes.

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    • Agreed

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    • I would like to see a Queen Jaydes page created

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • What else needs to be discussed?

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: A profile for the Spritelings is WIP, and then I think we're addressing Rosalina last.

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    • There just a few to discussed here I think its spritlins and other stuff etc

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    • Cheers. I haven't played Wario World though so I can't comment much on that.

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    • I heard it was a pretty good game would like to see a wario world on the switch

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • So how's the Spriteling page coming along? As well as the Rosalina updates?

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    • Not sure but I think the Bowser page is done

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    • I've made a WIP here. I know very little about Wario World, so please let me know if I need to add, remove, or change anything.

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    • There was also 2-B Pixl Queen.

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    • What would her powers be?

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    • Bump

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    • I have created a profile for the Spritelings and the Pixl Queen, along with updating Rosalina's profile. Meaning as far as I'm know, everything that has been accepted is now complete. So we can now focus on this thread. Most, if not all, of the proposings have been accpeted on that thread, but we only need DRB's input to complete this.

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    • Since its finished we can move on your CTR

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    • Edit: Nvm, I suppose DRB may double check to see if everything's up to date.

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    • What still needs to be done here?

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    • Not much, the only thing left are a couple abilities that the Pixl Queen should and shouldn't which I am currently discussing with DRB as of now. Other than that, this thread is complete.

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    • Okay.

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    • Bump

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    • What do you think Medeus?

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    • It seems Dino Ranger Black and DatOneWeeb are discussing some details regarding Pixl Queen on his wall, but it's mostly finished aside from that.

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    • Okay. Thanks. Should we close this thread then?

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    • A FANDOM user
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