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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    21:00, January 22, 2020

    Caulifla at the beginning of ToP is ranked 3-A and Massively FTL+ for being probably stronger than Cabba.

    But there are a lot of problems with Caulifla being 3-A and Massively FTL+ at the beginning of ToP.

    Base Caulifla seems to be slower than Kettol, also Kettol was capable of damaging her.                Not only Kettol, but even Zoiray was capable of damaging and overpowering Base Caulifla.Later Caulifla needed to be SSJ and Kale's help to counter the combined beam of the four Pride Troopers (Kettol, Zoiray, Cocotte and Casserale)

    Another proof is that Caulifla became SSJ against Napapa , Napapa is the same guy who had some problems against Basil.

    Yes, later Caulifla improved a lot, but in this topic I'm talking about Caulifla at the beginning of the tournament.  

    So I see four possibles ways:

    1. Goku and Vegeta were suppressed during the tournament of U7 and U6, so Caulifla and Cabba at the beginning of ToP were not 3-A.

    2. Goku and Vegeta's normal states (base form, SSJ...) were retconned (I know you are thinking "here we go again")

    3. Napapa, Basil and the Pride Troopers upgrading to 3-A, but it sounds strange to me because Bu was stronger than Basil and Android 18 capable of fightning Pride Troopers.

    4. PIS, but there are too many proofs to say it is PIS I think.

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    • Didn't Buu explicitly power up with his training? And Android 18, yeah I honestly don't know why she's so low. She's consistently been at least somewhere near Android 17's level.

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    • Akreious wrote: Didn't Buu explicitly power up with his training? And Android 18, yeah I honestly don't know why she's so low. She's consistently been at least somewhere near Android 17's level.

      Buu trained after the tournament of exhibition, Android 18 can't be on the same level of his brother, She fought with Krilin against Shosa.

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    • Idk. ToP 18, U6 Saiyans, Frost and the rest of ToP tier 4s in general are such a mess to scale. Maybe DBS Goku and Vegeta could get a Varies from 4-B to 3-A in their Base to SSJ3 forms?

      Or just bump all ToP tier 4s who fought at least once with 17, Goku or Vegeta to 3-A and be done with it. Lol

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    • When Vegeta said Cabba was equally matched with him, it was an inner monologue and not just to hype Cabba up or something, so the U6 Saiyans definitely should still be 3-A.

      And ToP 18 and Roshi are arguably 3-A anyways, so like...

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    • The problem comes down to Beginning of ToP Caulifla showings against weaker foes, and BoToP Caulifla is still stronger than Cabba or Frost.

      But Goku indisputably became 3-A post BoG. He got some feats supporting it like RoF, when Copy Vegeta in BASE beat up the crap of SSJ3 Gotenks, or Base Goku fighting on par with Beerus who was disguised as Monaka. Plus the fact he could damage Base Frieza just before the ToP.

      Maybe some ToP characters could be bumped to 3-A but I dunno. iirc 18 showings are more consistent on 3-A than High 4-C, this could be applied to Napapa and some Pride Troopers. Why are they Tier 4?

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    • I wouldn’t mind 18 and the Pride Troopers becoming 3-A, there isn’t much that would contradict it apart from 18’s fight with Shosa, but then again Shosa only landed like... one hit on 18? And iirc it was while she wasn’t on guard.

      Napapa is Tier 4 for fighting Basil, and the Pride Troopers are Tier 4 for one of them fighting Shosa and several other fighting Android 18. However, several of the Pride Troopers have 3-A feats on their profiles as well, like the group briefly matching SSJ Kale and (fatigued) SSJ Caulifla’s combined blast, plus Tupper and Zoiray damaging or in some cases overwhelming base Goku.

      Also nearly every Tier 4 Pride Trooper’s durability justification is taking attacks from SSJ Kale, or in Zoiray’s case, base Goku.

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    • LordTracer wrote: When Vegeta said Cabba was equally matched with him, it was an inner monologue and not just to hype Cabba up or something, so the U6 Saiyans definitely should still be 3-A.

      And ToP 18 and Roshi are arguably 3-A anyways, so like...

      Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God in his Super Saiyan form and later with Whis' training he became a God-Like Saiyan (Whis said to Oracle Fish that Goku and Vegeta must not use Super Saiyan form during training, or they will never become stronger). http://pm1.narvii.com/6904/940ce2e3a3b878b0e5efa3ab205524f89b8c8066r1-854-480v2_uhq.jpg

      Now, It is officially said that when a God-Like Saiyan change into Super Saiyan he became Super Saiyan Blue.

      http://www.shonengamez.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/kjkYQkH.png

      That makes sense with Whis saying to not use Super Saiyan form while training. So Goku's SSJ after the fight with Beerus was Super Saiyan God Level, later Goku became Super Saiyan God Level in his base form and became a God-Like Saiyan. The problem is that when Goku became a God-Like Saiyan when he changed into Super Saiyan form he became Super Saiyan Blue, so when Goku uses his Yellow Super Saiyan form he is likely suppressed, or am I wrong?

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    • That second scan you posted applies only to the Resurrection F movie, which was retconned by the Golden Freeza arc and doesn’t apply to Super. And the whole “God-Like Saiyan” concept is contradicted by the fact that Goku can stack Super Saiyan God on top of his SSG-level base form. So no, Goku and Vegeta aren’t suppressed whenever they use SSJ 1 - 3.

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    • LordTracer wrote: That second scan you posted applies only to the Resurrection F movie, which was retconned by the Golden Freeza arc and doesn’t apply to Super. And the whole “God-Like Saiyan” concept is contradicted by the fact that Goku can stack Super Saiyan God on top of his SSG-level base form. So no, Goku and Vegeta aren’t suppressed whenever they use SSJ 1 - 3.

      Super Saiyan God was re-introduced only in the ToP where we saw Caulifla and the other Saiyan of universe 6 having problems with Tier 4 characters. If you see Copy Vegeta vs Goku they first used their base form and later Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan form, that reminds the scan of Fukkatsu no F Movie. Even the explanation of Super Saiyan Blue in the anime:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GcpqYxQxL84 This is the Super Saiyan form of a Saiyan who has the powers of a Super Saiyan God.

      Also, Lavenda could fight well against Gohan even before he got poisoned. https://youtu.be/dAT1WYGmRN0

      And Basil who is weaker than Bu (before his training) is comparable to Lavenda.

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    • You mean characters who only have one fight with a Tier 4 and several with Tier 3s? And I don’t see your point of SSG only being re-introduced in the ToP. Goku and Copy-Vegeta instantly going Blue doesn’t mean they’re “God-Like Saiyans,” Vegeta would have faded away if Goku didn’t beat Copy-Vegeta quickly enough so why would he waste time going from base to SSJ to SSJ2 to SSG and then SSB? You still can’t use the scan as evidence since the movie isn’t canon.

      Yes, Blue is Super Saiyan stacked on top of Super Saiyan God. Hence the name; Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Not any time Goku goes SSJ with God Ki.

      And Gohan was also shown to be on par with U6 Saga Piccolo, who was handling Final Form Frost, which is definitely 3-A, so...

      Goku and Vegeta aren’t always suppressed when they use SSJ - SSJ3, there’s nothing in the series that supports that idea.

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    • LordTracer wrote: You mean characters who only have one fight with a Tier 4 and several with Tier 3s? And I don’t see your point of SSG only being re-introduced in the ToP. Goku and Copy-Vegeta instantly going Blue doesn’t mean they’re “God-Like Saiyans,” Vegeta would have faded away if Goku didn’t beat Copy-Vegeta quickly enough so why would he waste time going from base to SSJ to SSJ2 to SSG and then SSB? You still can’t use the scan as evidence since the movie isn’t canon.

      Yes, Blue is Super Saiyan stacked on top of Super Saiyan God. Hence the name; Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. Not any time Goku goes SSJ with God Ki.

      And Gohan was also shown to be on par with U6 Saga Piccolo, who was handling Final Form Frost, which is definitely 3-A, so...

      Goku and Vegeta aren’t always suppressed when they use SSJ - SSJ3, there’s nothing in the series that supports that idea.

      If Lavenda could fight with Gohan even before the poison It means that Gohan can't be much stronger and faster than him. Gohan can fight with Piccolo? Well, it means that Piccolo and Frost were not 3-A and this support the fact that Goku was suppressed during the tournament of U6 & U7. Another proof about God-Like Saiyan in the anime? See when Goku Black in his base form fought against SSB Vegeta, if it was just his normal base form his Super Saiyan Rosè form would have made him thousands and thousands of times more powerful, something that didn't happen. In fact a megazine said that Black's SSJ Rosè Is his Super Saiyan Form, that's true because when a God-Like Saiyan change into Super Saiyan he became Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or in this case Super Saiyan Rosè. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyQdrBsXEAAExp7?format=jpg&name=medium

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    • Except Piccolo and Frost are 3-A. Frost is clearly 3-A in every single form except his first form. Third Form Frost was actually causing damage to base Goku and even flew straight through his Kamehameha at one point, eventually forcing Goku into SSJ. That shows Goku wasn’t suppressed against Frost. This is later supported by Frost actually making Hit get serious for a moment, something a Tier 4 would be incapable of doing. And no, it’s not a fact Goku was suppressed during the U6 tournament, the only times you can argue him being suppressed is with Botamo and First Form Frost. So yeah, Frost even before the ToP is 3-A, and Gohan after his training with Piccolo scales to that. Gohan even fought Goku equally in episode 75, and it is heavily implied that once Goku went SSJ, he wasn’t holding back. So again, Gohan scales to 3-A. Lavender fighting him is clearly just an outlier. And Lavender didn’t even fight him that much, they swapped hands for like two seconds before he poisoned Gohan.

      It was also said Rosé is Black’s version of Super Saiyan Blue, and I’m pretty sure that was said directly in the anime so... that magazine contradicts the actual anime. And I’m pretty sure magazines aren’t used for DBS here anyways. Also your own point contradicts itself. If you think Rosé is just Black’s normal SSJ, then no, he wouldn’t have gotten thousands of times stronger than his base since SSJ is just a 50x multiplier. You’re contradicting yourself.

      So once again, this concept of God-Like Saiyans is not supported in the anime and Goku and Vegeta are not always suppressed whenever they aren’t using God or Blue. Hell, Goku has even started fights with God-Blue level opponents in base or SSJ forms (cough cough LSSJ Kale and Ikari Broly).

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    • LordTracer wrote: Except Piccolo and Frost are 3-A. Frost is clearly 3-A in every single form except his first form. Third Form Frost was actually causing damage to base Goku and even flew straight through his Kamehameha at one point, eventually forcing Goku into SSJ. That shows Goku wasn’t suppressed against Frost. This is later supported by Frost actually making Hit get serious for a moment, something a Tier 4 would be incapable of doing. And no, it’s not a fact Goku was suppressed during the U6 tournament, the only times you can argue him being suppressed is with Botamo and First Form Frost. So yeah, Frost even before the ToP is 3-A, and Gohan after his training with Piccolo scales to that. Gohan even fought Goku equally in episode 75, and it is heavily implied that once Goku went SSJ, he wasn’t holding back. So again, Gohan scales to 3-A. Lavender fighting him is clearly just an outlier. And Lavender didn’t even fight him that much, they swapped hands for like two seconds before he poisoned Gohan.

      It was also said Rosé is Black’s version of Super Saiyan Blue, and I’m pretty sure that was said directly in the anime so... that magazine contradicts the actual anime. And I’m pretty sure magazines aren’t used for DBS here anyways. Also your own point contradicts itself. If you think Rosé is just Black’s normal SSJ, then no, he wouldn’t have gotten thousands of times stronger than his base since SSJ is just a 50x multiplier. You’re contradicting yourself.

      So once again, this concept of God-Like Saiyans is not supported in the anime and Goku and Vegeta are not always suppressed whenever they aren’t using God or Blue. Hell, Goku has even started fights with God-Blue level opponents in base or SSJ forms (cough cough LSSJ Kale and Ikari Broly).

      1. When I say that Goku suppressed himself I mean he didn't use his Super Saiyan God's power as Ultimate Gohan can use or not his 100% in his base form. Hope you get what I mean. 2. You didn't understand what I said. SSJ Rosè Is for sure Black's version of SSB (in the anime it isn't said but it's pretty clear). What I mean Is that when a God-Like Saiyan change into Yellow Super Saiyan he automatically become Blue or Rosè in the case of Goku Black. Goku Black was a God-Like Saiyan against SSB Vegeta and I'm sure about this, because when he became Rosè he became for sure stronger but not thousands of times, he got the Super Saiyan boost because he was a God-Like Saiyan probably (He was on the same level of SSB Vegeta and later with Super Saiyan Rosè overpowered him, but the gap wasn't of thousands of times).

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    • There’s no evidence that he wasn’t using his God Ki, and there’s no reason to assume he wasn’t. Not sure why you’re bringing up Mystic Gohan, that’s not even the fight I was referring to. I’m referring to the fight in Episode 75 where Gohan, as the Great Saiyaman, fought evenly with Goku even after Goku was implied to have stopped holding back.

      Rosé Black one-shot Vegeta Blue, so you don’t know what the gap between them is at all. That does not justify your idea of the God-Like Saiyan concept, especially when we know for a fact that Super Saiyan God can be stacked on top of these characters’ God Ki base forms.

      There’s just no evidence supporting that Goku and Vegeta never use their full power/God Ki when they go SSJ1-SSJ3, and like I mentioned before, Goku has used SSJ1-SSJ3 against SSG-SSGSS level opponents like Toppo, LSSJ (and LSSJ2) Kale, Ikari Broly and even Jiren of all people.

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    • LordTracer wrote: There’s no evidence that he wasn’t using his God Ki, and there’s no reason to assume he wasn’t. Not sure why you’re bringing up Mystic Gohan, that’s not even the fight I was referring to. I’m referring to the fight in Episode 75 where Gohan, as the Great Saiyaman, fought evenly with Goku even after Goku was implied to have stopped holding back.

      Rosé Black one-shot Vegeta Blue, so you don’t know what the gap between them is at all. That does not justify your idea of the God-Like Saiyan concept, especially when we know for a fact that Super Saiyan God can be stacked on top of these characters’ God Ki base forms.

      There’s just no evidence supporting that Goku and Vegeta never use their full power/God Ki when they go SSJ1-SSJ3, and like I mentioned before, Goku has used SSJ1-SSJ3 against SSG-SSGSS level opponents like Toppo, LSSJ (and LSSJ2) Kale, Ikari Broly and even Jiren of all people.

      There is a misunderstanding. I bringing up Mystic Gohan to explain better what I meant with suppressed for Goku and Vegeta. I think that Goku and Vegeta can use or not God Ki when they want, and these are the proofs they didn't use it against Cabba and other characters: 1. Piccolo being SSG Level during Champa Arc with just training with Gohan for a short period doesn't make any sense, and Frost was tired against him.

      2. Lavender can keep up with Base Gohan even before the poison, Lavender is on the same level of Basil who lost against Bu.

      3. Goku said to Piccolo that Gohan was out of practice during the tournament of exhibition, If Gohan was 3-A (so stronger than ever) as you say Goku would never have said so. https://youtu.be/x-Qj7NkJ8RQ See 1:00

      4. Caulifla had troubles against Tier 4 Characters, such as Napapa Who had troubles against Basil (Who Is weaker than Bu). Pride Troopers cannot be 3-A because they fought Android 18 and Android 18 being Super Saiyan God Level without do anything just doesn't make any sense. That's all I think.

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    • 1) Not making sense isn’t an argument. Anyone being God tier without training with a God is nonsensical, but it happens. So that’s not an argument. Featwise, Piccolo and Frost are both 3-A.

      2) Lavender poisoned Gohan almost immediately. He literally only matched Gohan for like two seconds, meanwhile Gohan is consistently shown to be 3-A in DBS. Lavender is simply an outlier, as I already went over.

      3) That is false, as an “out-of-practice” Gohan in RoF was still the strongest he had ever been as he one-shot Tagoma, who was comparable to Buu Arc Mystic Gohan. And Gohan was still able to briefly contend with Piccolo, who I’ve already gone over is easily 3-A and there is literally nothing that contradicts that.

      4) Not making sense still isn’t a reason. By that logic, I could say Hit being 3-A doesn’t make sense as he’s just an assassin. Or Dyspo being 3-A doesn’t make sense because he was never trained by a God. 18 bodied Ribrianne, who consistently swapped hands with ToP Goku AND Vegeta (ToP Vegeta being stronger than ToP Goku) and she effortlessly defeated the Pride Trooper Tupper, who was overpowering base Goku. The Pride Troopers can be 3–A, and Caulifla is undeniably 3-A, she is consistently portrayed as 3-A throughout the tournament and only got a power boost after the Pride Trooper scuffle where she arguably got a Zenkai.

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    • LordTracer wrote: 1) Not making sense isn’t an argument. Anyone being God tier without training with a God is nonsensical, but it happens. So that’s not an argument. Featwise, Piccolo and Frost are both 3-A.

      2) Lavender poisoned Gohan almost immediately. He literally only matched Gohan for like two seconds, meanwhile Gohan is consistently shown to be 3-A in DBS. Lavender is simply an outlier, as I already went over.

      3) That is false, as an “out-of-practice” Gohan in RoF was still the strongest he had ever been as he one-shot Tagoma, who was comparable to Buu Arc Mystic Gohan. And Gohan was still able to briefly contend with Piccolo, who I’ve already gone over is easily 3-A and there is literally nothing that contradicts that.

      4) Not making sense still isn’t a reason. By that logic, I could say Hit being 3-A doesn’t make sense as he’s just an assassin. Or Dyspo being 3-A doesn’t make sense because he was never trained by a God. 18 bodied Ribrianne, who consistently swapped hands with ToP Goku AND Vegeta (ToP Vegeta being stronger than ToP Goku) and she effortlessly defeated the Pride Trooper Tupper, who was overpowering base Goku. The Pride Troopers can be 3–A, and Caulifla is undeniably 3-A, she is consistently portrayed as 3-A throughout the tournament and only got a power boost after the Pride Trooper scuffle where she arguably got a Zenkai.

      1. I Just disagree.

      2. So... explain me why Goku and Vegeta became SSJ against Universe 9 and Trio de Danger how exactly Goku became SSJ against Great Saiyaman Gohan. Why Gohan scales and Trio de Danger not? Can't Goku have suppressed himself and not using God Ki in both fights? Don't get me wrong, Gohan later became for sure 3-A.

      3. Now I'm not english and in my language It is said that Tagoma might be as strong as Gohan in his best in that moment, not in general. Also, Krilin was confident of having Bu at his side more than having Gohan and even after he sensed First Form Frieza's power. https://youtu.be/TShCfa352i4

      3:45

      4. Characters from other universes makes sense to be 3-A, Android 18 without do any form of training and without any statament about her being stronger than before doesn't make sense for her being 3-A.

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    • 2) Because Gohan has consistent reason to scale? He consistently scales around Piccolo, who has zero anti-feats after the U6 Saga to contradict his scaling to Frost, and Gohan himself squared up with Goku who implied pretty clearly that he wasn’t holding back.

      3) At least in the sub I watched, Gohan just said Tagoma was relative to him at his best. Not his best at that moment, just his best in general.

      4) Still, not making sense is not an argument. Just being from another universe doesn’t give them legitimate reason to be God tier, but they are. And 18 has the feats and scaling to be there. Several things in this show don’t make sense, doesn’t mean you just discount them.

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    • LordTracer wrote: 2) Because Gohan has consistent reason to scale? He consistently scales around Piccolo, who has zero anti-feats after the U6 Saga to contradict his scaling to Frost, and Gohan himself squared up with Goku who implied pretty clearly that he wasn’t holding back.

      3) At least in the sub I watched, Gohan just said Tagoma was relative to him at his best. Not his best at that moment, just his best in general.

      4) Still, not making sense is not an argument. Just being from another universe doesn’t give them legitimate reason to be God tier, but they are. And 18 has the feats and scaling to be there. Several things in this show don’t make sense, doesn’t mean you just discount them.

      2. Goku probably used his full power with normal ki and not with god ki/Super Saiyan God's power.

      3. I see. I've found where Gohan said that Tagoma was not inferior to him. https://youtu.be/4S3uXpIdykE

      4. There aren't statament of her being stronger and she didn't train, so the Characters she fought are not Universal. If you think she can be Universal without any solid proofs sorry I just disagree.

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    • 2) That’s an assumption on your part, one that is honestly unfounded since in a previous saga Gohan was shown to be equal to Piccolo in his base, and SSJ Gohan was even able to damage SSJ Goku. Saying Gohan doesn’t scale at that point is honestly just ignoring the evidence presented by the series itself and his scaling.

      4) I’ve literally listed the feats that put her there. There not being any statements is irrelevant when she actually has the feats and scaling. That’s solid proof. The only thing there isn’t solid proof for is the idea of her not scaling to Goku. And she literally did train, she’s been shown sparring with Krillin more than once. And before you say that shouldn’t allow her to reach God tier, 17 reached God tier by beating up poachers that should be 9-C at best.

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    • I agree with opinion 1.

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    • yeah I agree with Option 1 

      Goku and Vegeta were not giving their all until their fights with Jiren and Toppo. 

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    • Option one refers to the Universe 6 tournament, not the ToP. And if Vegeta was suppressed against Cabba, he wouldn’t have said they were equally matched in an inner monologue.

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    • Outlier.

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    • Outlier even though he’s not that far behind Caulifla, who was almost exclusively matching Goku throughout the ToP... and a fatigued SSJ2 Cabba forced Freeza to transform to withstand his Galick Cannon... also what anti-feats does Cabba have that would make it an outlier?

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    • Cabba is weaker than Caulifla, who got beat by tier 4 pride Troopers and was almost eliminated by someone, as a super saiyan, who's weaker than Majin Buu. 

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    • Scaling someone to base Goku or Vegeta is almost never a foot idea. 

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    • I explained earlier how those Pride Troopers can be argued to 3-A, and Caulifla doesn’t scale to base Goku, she scales to SSJ2 Goku, so... Also when Vegeta explicitly says someone equals his base, and he says it as an inner monologue, it’s fact. Unless you think Vegeta just doesn’t know his own power for some reason.

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    • Feats > statements 

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    • And Cabba has the feat of matching Vegeta’s Galick Gun, which is what caused Vegeta to state they were equals in the first place. And Cabba has the feat of forcing Freeza into Golden, which further supports it as base Freeza should be on par with base Goku and SSJ2 Cabba would surpass that.

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    • LordTracer wrote:
      And Cabba has the feat of matching Vegeta’s Galick Gun, which is what caused Vegeta to state they were equals in the first place. And Cabba has the feat of forcing Freeza into Golden, which further supports it as base Freeza should be on par with base Goku and SSJ2 Cabba would surpass that.

      Still it's contradicted by a 4-B Sumo Wrestler pushing SSJ Caulifla. 

      Matching Goku or Vegeta's​​​​​​ base is arbitrary because they would literally transform for everyone and their mother. 

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    • You do realize that would then be the outlier, right?

      And? Still 3-A.

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    • 1 4-B Thing <<< Multiple 3-A Stuff

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    • Akreious wrote: 1 4-B Thing <<< Multiple 3-A Stuff

      It isn't one 4-B thing and 3-A stuff Is all based on fighting base Goku or Vegeta. Seriously, Beerus searched the legendary Super Saiyan God and now everyone surpassed It without any kind of training or without stataments about it. Majin Bu is still threated as someone really strong, Krilin was confident of having him at his side even after he sensed First Form Frieza's ki. Also, Gohan during RoF was for sure weaker than himself during Bu Saga, see that:

      https://youtu.be/wSfv_0eFNKA

      And that:

      https://youtu.be/KmzJSDZ8VvQ

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    • @everyone in this thread

      Do you think Base to SSJ3 Goku is 3-A or nah?

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    • One of Cabba’s 3-A feats is literally based on Freeza and Vegeta himself said Cabba was his equal but okay. Also this is literally the same as what happened with OG Super Saiyan back in Z, why is it so difficult to understand that people surpassed SSG?

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    • Omegas03 wrote: @everyone in this thread

      Do you think Base to SSJ3 Goku is 3-A or nah?

      It should be, but It was possibly retconned or at least Goku can chose to use God ki or not. For sure Gohan before unlocking again his Ultimate form was not 3-A, the narrator said that Gohan regained the strenght of the past and Gohan during RoF was weaker than Ultimate Gohan because Krilin was more confident of having Majin Bu and SSJ Kid Trunks did the same feat of Gohan. So if Gohan was 3-A he would have had his Ultimate form, the fact that he hasn't had It means that he was weaker than end of Buu Saga himself.

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    • I still can't believe Frost or Base Cabba could stomp Napapa, Trio of Dangers and 18 all at the same time according to this wiki profiles. Maybe making them Varies from 4-B to 3-A or a 4-B, likely 3-A? Or make all the guys 3-A for all I know they have more 3-A feats lol.

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    • 18 has 3-A stuff and Frost should have a 4-B key for his first form.

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    • Idk what you people mean by God Ki, everyone and their mothers could feel Base Goku back at the RoF arc. Goku only used god ki when he's SSJG or SSJB because the BoG SSJG power is part of himself now.

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    • LordTracer wrote: One of Cabba’s 3-A feats is literally based on Freeza and Vegeta himself said Cabba was his equal but okay. Also this is literally the same as what happened with OG Super Saiyan back in Z, why is it so difficult to understand that people surpassed SSG?

      4th form Frieza was confident of defeating Caulifla and Kale, Goku even stopped him.

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    • Lgamer099 99 wrote:

      LordTracer wrote: One of Cabba’s 3-A feats is literally based on Freeza and Vegeta himself said Cabba was his equal but okay. Also this is literally the same as what happened with OG Super Saiyan back in Z, why is it so difficult to understand that people surpassed SSG?

      4th form Frieza was confident of defeating Caulifla and Kale, Goku even stopped him.

      Well Base Frieza fought Dyspo who is SSJG tier but he also transformed against SSJ2 Cabba.

      Also Frieza said that out of mere arrogance or could have easily meant by stomping them in his Golden Form.

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    • Freeza is just arrogant, this is something that has been made very clear. He felt the need to go Golden for a fatigued SSJ2 Cabba’s Galick Cannon.

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    • The pride Troopers scale to 18, who’s staying high 4-C. She scales to Shosa and Majora, two people even Krillin are able to fight with. They’re even comparable to each other. Not to mention we don’t know if 18 did any form of training. 

      Also again, SSJ Caulifla struggled against a character who’s weaker than Fat Buu. 

      INB4 but they scale to Goku. 

      • Base Vegeta tanks hits from Katopesla after his strength increases by 300x. SSJ Vegeta fights ultimate Katopeslawho only got faster (yes faster. His ultimate mode only increases his normal strength by 300x, which was already amped). 
      • SSJ Vegeta tanks Cabba’s punch, contradicting his monologue from before. 
      • Goku goes SSJ2 against Zamasu but he’s holding back immensely. Gowasu is impressed that Goku fought Beerus, wondering how he’s alive, and even questions if he’s on the level of a destroyer. Why would a regular old Kai be on suppressed Beerus’ level when that said power is already frightening?

      There’re likely a lot more but these examples show how trigger happy the saiyans are with their forms. And simply saying lul they scale to Base Gookoo is a no no, especially given the context. We need confirmation that Goku is actually giving it his all. The only time Goku went all out was against Jiren and Kefla. 

      And remember outliers / anti-feats are a thing. 

      Anyway I’m going to bed. 

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    • Yeah, Shosa landed one blow on an off-guard 18 and that vid you sent doesn’t even show Majora fighting 18. Also 18’s profile literally says Krillin is only comparable to her when she’s suppressed. And we do know she did training, sparring is training.

      And as for your points that supposedly contradict Caulifla and Cabba scaling to Goku and Vegeta:

      - Katopesla literally says his attacks get 300x stronger again, he does not say he only gets faster.

      - You just gonna completely overlook the fact that Vegeta has Grade 4 SSJ and Cabba only has Grade 1?

      - And he one-shot Ribrianne, so what’s your point?

      - Zamasu is not a regular Kai, he is a Kaioshin in training and was stated numerous times to be a prodigy.

      It at most shows Goku is trigger happy with Blue, and him transforming against Krillin at all is clearly an outlier. Cabba still scales to base Vegeta, who doesn’t play around nearly as much as Goku, and the statement comes from Vegeta himself. Plus a fatigued SSJ2 Cabba > Base Freeza, who undeniably scales to full power base Goku. And Caulifla wasn’t fighting base Goku, she was fighting SSJ2 Goku, and before you try to say Goku was just playing around, Caulifla was just as casual as Goku throughout that fight. So where are you even getting that the U6 Saiyans scale to base Goku from?

      Also I’d like to see the evidence that supports the idea Goku was suppressed against literally everyone but Kefla and Jiren. When was he stated to be suppressed against Dyspo? Or Aniraza?

      Yes, Caulifla struggling with Napapa is the outlier here as has been said more than once now.

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    • Frieza transforming in his Golden Form against Cabba insn't the same thing of Goku when he transformed into Super Saiyan Blue against Trio De Dangers?

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    • Freeza doesn’t use Golden unless he absolutely needs to and we’ve never seen him use it unnecessarily, so...

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    • Wait hold up. When did Android 18 train?

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    • She has been showing sparring with Krillin... sparring is training...

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    • LordTracer wrote:
      She has been showing sparring with Krillin... sparring is training...

      So a quick sparring match with Krillin automatically makes her 3-A?

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    • There any reason to assume that’s literally the only time they’ve ever sparred?

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    • LordTracer wrote:
      There any reason to assume that’s literally the only time they’ve ever sparred?

      That's not the point. How does training with a character weaker than you make you go from high 4-C to 3-A?

      Wide-eyed.jpg

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    • Ask Android 17.

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    • LordTracer wrote: Ask Android 17.

      Less than 10 years of unknown self training regimens > sparring with a high 4-C for less than two days.

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    • Again, any reason to assume that’s like the only time 18 and Krillin have sparred? As far as we know, all 17 did on that island was beat the crap out of poachers that should be 9-C at best.

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    • So I have been against 3-A characters who scale to suppressed Goku and Vegeta for the longest. There is absolutely no logical explanation for Android 18 to be 3-A and thus most of the Pride Troopers nor should Caulifa and Kale. Base Vegeta was essentially dicking around with Ribrianne and nearly one shotted Monna in Base form who was beating the crap out of SSJ Cabba. 

      Goku has an extreme niche of holding back from his competitors so he can enjoy the thrill of any and every fight. 

      A11d40d0ca1280016506fbed0895ca4ce9bb7a48 hq
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    • Also are we to forget that stamina drained Goku was beating down SSJ2 Caulifa?
      56b9edbd1791d56b755f21c27be7dfd4ae6aad9b hq
      9Js3Sjc
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    • Stamina drained Post-UIS Base Goku. The very same Goku that trashed LSS2 Kale as a SSG when previously LSS1 Kale trashed Pre-UIS SSB Goku and was literally the only non fusion/ultra instinct character whose power made Jiren budge or move in his meditation. Not even Base Toppo and SSB Vegeta's battle made Jiren budge and Kale did it by transforming. So yeah that fight doesn't really prove Caulifla is not 3-A.

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    • Base Vegeta was very clearly annoyed with Ribrianne, he was not “dicking around.” And all Vegeta did was send Monna flying when she wasn’t expecting it.

      We also gonna overlook that Goku was holding on primarily via skill and Caulifla was shown to be his superior in power? And she adapted like a minute later to match SSJ2 Goku?

      Also Post-UIO1 Goku didn’t even trash LSSJ2 Kale, she was able to briefly swap hands with him on her own.

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    • Oh yeah forgot how Amped Goku gets after UIO  

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    • LordTracer wrote: Again, any reason to assume that’s like the only time 18 and Krillin have sparred? As far as we know, all 17 did on that island was beat the crap out of poachers that should be 9-C at best.

      As far as anyone knows Krillin an 18 only sparred when they knew about the tournament, sparring with someone weaker than you possibly more than one time in less than two days doesn’t make you go from high 4-C to 3-A, especially when you’re sparring partner power doesn’t change.

      And about the 17 thing. His scenario is completely different. He had 10 years to himself and he was able to train, not spar.

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    • Train with who other than a bunch of 9-Cs at most?

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    • LordTracer wrote: Train with who other than a bunch of 9-Cs at most?

      You really think he got that strong for one shotting a bunch of poachers? You do know you DB characters exercise by themselves and get stronger right?

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    • When has anyone ever gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to Super Saiyan Blue tier through training by themselves?

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    • LordTracer wrote: When has anyone ever gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to Super Saiyan Blue tier through training by themselves?

      Piccolo trains in the ROSAT and becomes stronger than Semi Perfect Cell. Trunks trains in the ROSAT, regrowing his hair and getting stronger. Vegeta trains by himself in the ROSAT thrice. Once in Z, after he gets wrecked by Cell, and twice in Super.

      Getting stronger when training by yourself to get stronger is definitely possible.

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    • Did I say it wasn’t? No, I didn’t. I asked when has someone gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku by Training by themselves. And 17 has no RoSaT, so...

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    • LordTracer wrote: Did I say it wasn’t? No, I didn’t. I asked when has someone gone from beneath Imperfect Cell to on the level of Super Saiyan Blue Goku by Training by themselves. And 17 has no RoSaT, so...

      The answer is no one except 17, but why does the gap suddenly matter now? Piccolo trained for like a day and went from being fodder to 4-Bs to 3-A. Yeah he trained with Gohan during that time but how is training by yourself so much less effect than training with a partner.

      Even then, you don’t know what methods 17 did over those ten years. So whatever methods you think he did is head canon. So please stop comparing 17 to 18.

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    • Android 17 was a key character, so he became stronger after years and years of training and there are a lot of feats and statements about that. About Android 18? No one said something about her, she was important during the ToP for his relationship with Krilin. Android 18 didn't become 3-A, there are no solid proofs or stataments about that and she wasn't as important as his brother.

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    • You’re the one that brought up the gap in the first place, mate, so you tell me why it matters. And it’s been shown that training with others yields better results? I only compare her to 17 because you asked the question of how training with someone weaker than you makes you 3-A. Honestly the discussion had moved quite a bit past 18 so I dunno why you brought that up again.

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    • The point is that 18 did nothing major to go from high 4-C to 3-A.

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    • Sigh... and again, as far as we know, neither did 17.

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    • LordTracer wrote: Sigh... and again, as far as we know, neither did 17.

      17’s scenario is much different and an Occam’s Razor so stop bringing it up.

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    • I would have, and then you brought up the entire reason I brought up 17 in the first place. Again. And Occam’s Razor favors me on this.

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    • LordTracer wrote: Freeza doesn’t use Golden unless he absolutely needs to and we’ve never seen him use it unnecessarily, so...

      Frieza called Cabba trash and noted that it was a waste to expend excess stamina on him.

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    • And...? That doesn’t mean Freeza didn’t need to transform to be stronger than his SSJ2. And the True Golden Form doesn’t even majorly drain stamina so...

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    • Bump.

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    • You should ask some staff members listed in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.

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    • Antvasima wrote: You should ask some staff members listed in the Knowledgeable Members List and the Dragon Ball verse page to comment here.

      Did It, thank you.

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    • TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.

      However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

      I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.

      However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

      I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.

      That's because you just might not understand the difference between the ritual and the training they did with Whis. Through the ritual Goku was able to temporarily access the form of SSJG while retaining the forms power, based on Vegeta's statements he might have even surpassed it eventually being at least on par with that boost with his Base form by the end of the fight. However this ritual did not give Goku the form or even god ki but just the boost. Finally after training with Whis along with Vegeta did Goku manage to harness god ki on his own and then had the ability to fully use it with his saiyan powers and stack it with Super Saiyan. 

      "Let’s say I got a taste of something called Super Saiyan God, and now I’ve learned to tap into that power on my own. And it's the Super Saiyan level of that.

      — Goku

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    • We've already discussed this earlier. All these characters were 3-A initially but because they didn't have solid feats and consistent showings since the ToP was inconsistent at handling other universes, it was decided that pride troopers should be downgraded to where they are now.

      U6 saiyans were more consistent in that regard so their fight with pride troopers was treated as outlier. 

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    • I mean Goku was handling Caulifa at the very beginning of the arc and later Goku taking on Caulifa was a glorified training session where Caulifa was desperate to learn SSJ3. I think Caulifa and Kale just grow immensely stronger as they fight. 

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: TBH I think scaling Base Goku to be equal to his Super Saiyan God form when he can still transform into it is dumb.

      However, the gap is definitely not as big as 4-B to 3-A, either.

      I think Base Goku is 3-B personally.

      I think SSJ Goku post-BoG is = SSG so Base would be 110x baseline/50 which is still 3-A unless I am forgetting how far onto 3-A are BoG characters.

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    • @AKM

      Thank you for helping out.

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    • I agree with AKM Sama, Goku is 3-A or above in all his forms. Also, the wording for Base Goku and SSG Goku mentioning above is bad. The answer is, Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku was, who was 3-A even back then. But as of RoF saga and above, Goku and Vegeta grew in power to the point where even their base forms are SSG level with each form still being stronger than the last as far as SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB, SSB Kaioken x2-20, ect. It's similar to how later in ToP, SSB Goku and Vegeta became stronger than UI Sign was, but the current UI Sign and UIM are stronger yet.

      Goku doesn't just get stronger from learning new transformations, he's always training to be stronger than yesterday, and often times the jumps are so great, that even his base forms and weaker transformations are stronger now then their strongest forms were. It's not like Base Form Goku is forever below Frieza saga SSJ just because he can still go SSJ. It's not like SSJ is forever below Cell saga SSJ2 just because they can still go SSJ2, and it's not like SSJ is forever below Buu Saga SSJ3. Goku constantly grows to where even Base Goku would solo all of Freiza saga, or SSJ would beat Super Perfect Cell, or SSJ2 would stomp Super Buu. Or heck, Super Goku is easily above all previously mentioned foes in his base form and always has from the beginning of Super. But Base Goku also happens to be universal due demonstrating BoG levels of power even now. His sparring match with Beerus disguised as Manoka was also a hint for that. As well as Base Goku being able to land a solid hit on Hit when SSB Vegeta was stomped. They both got a lot stronger now from then, but even back then, their base forms are easily universal.

      Anyway Cabba has been Universal even in ToP saga. There was the fact that even Frost was Universal given he gave Base Goku trouble; when he is easily stronger than his RoF counterpart. And Goku possibly considered him stronger than 4th form Frieza in RoF though not as strong as Golden Frieza. Vegeta one-shotted Frost in SSJ form as he saw no need to toy around like Goku did in his SSJ form. And he actually did see potential in Cabba, as Vegeta upon getting Cabba to reach SSJ2 felt the need to use SSB despite not needing to use it against Magetta or Frost. Caulifa and Kale are also both comparable to Cabba. The Pride Troopers excluding the top three were all fodder that the saiyans literally did nothing but toy with and even Android 18 stomped them.

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    • I would have argued for God-like Saiyan state not being a thing hadn't it been for that bullshit Copy Vegeta filler saga where base Copy Vegeta took a kick to the face from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks unfazed. Although I don't mind base Goku and base Vegeta being 4-B instead.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I agree with AKM Sama, Goku is 3-A or above in all his forms. Also, the wording for Base Goku and SSG Goku mentioning above is bad. The answer is, Base Goku is stronger than SSG Goku was, who was 3-A even back then. But as of RoF saga and above, Goku and Vegeta grew in power to the point where even their base forms are SSG level with each form still being stronger than the last as far as SSJ, SSJ2, SSJ3, SSG, SSB, SSB Kaioken x2-20, ect. It's similar to how later in ToP, SSB Goku and Vegeta became stronger than UI Sign was, but the current UI Sign and UIM are stronger yet.

      Goku doesn't just get stronger from learning new transformations, he's always training to be stronger than yesterday, and often times the jumps are so great, that even his base forms and weaker transformations are stronger now then their strongest forms were. It's not like Base Form Goku is forever below Frieza saga SSJ just because he can still go SSJ. It's not like SSJ is forever below Cell saga SSJ2 just because they can still go SSJ2, and it's not like SSJ is forever below Buu Saga SSJ3. Goku constantly grows to where even Base Goku would solo all of Freiza saga, or SSJ would beat Super Perfect Cell, or SSJ2 would stomp Super Buu. Or heck, Super Goku is easily above all previously mentioned foes in his base form and always has from the beginning of Super. But Base Goku also happens to be universal due demonstrating BoG levels of power even now. His sparring match with Beerus disguised as Manoka was also a hint for that. As well as Base Goku being able to land a solid hit on Hit when SSB Vegeta was stomped. They both got a lot stronger now from then, but even back then, their base forms are easily universal.

      Anyway Cabba has been Universal even in ToP saga. There was the fact that even Frost was Universal given he gave Base Goku trouble; when he is easily stronger than his RoF counterpart. And Goku possibly considered him stronger than 4th form Frieza in RoF though not as strong as Golden Frieza. Vegeta one-shotted Frost in SSJ form as he saw no need to toy around like Goku did in his SSJ form. And he actually did see potential in Cabba, as Vegeta upon getting Cabba to reach SSJ2 felt the need to use SSB despite not needing to use it against Magetta or Frost. Caulifa and Kale are also both comparable to Cabba. The Pride Troopers excluding the top three were all fodder that the saiyans literally did nothing but toy with and even Android 18 stomped them.

      The problem is that Base U6 Saiyans were not toying around with Pride Troopers, Caulifla had a lot of troubles against them, also she became SSJ against someone who was Basil level. There are too many proofs to considered it an outlier, Lavender was also capable of keeping up with Base Gohan before the poison. Also the fact that Gohan couldn't use his Ultimate form means that he wasn't 3-A. RoF SSJ Gohan was not as strong as him during Buu Saga, Gohan thought that Tagoma was as strong as him in that moment and It Is said by Gohan himself in the preview of the episode 22.

      https://youtu.be/4S3uXpIdykE

      Goku teleported himself to Earth thanks to SSJ Gohan's ki? He did the same thanks to SSJ Kid Trunks' ki. So SSJ Kid Trunks did the same feat of Gohan and should be comparable to him.

      https://youtu.be/FDFutDTGUGs

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    • AKM sama wrote: We've already discussed this earlier. All these characters were 3-A initially but because they didn't have solid feats and consistent showings since the ToP was inconsistent at handling other universes, it was decided that pride troopers should be downgraded to where they are now.

      U6 saiyans were more consistent in that regard so their fight with pride troopers was treated as outlier. 

      Amen

      Tho, inconsistency and low end =/= outlier. It’s an inconsistency.

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    • Low end feats can also be outliers too; Outlier in general means an incident that doesn't belong.

      Also, Gohan was still legit very strong during RoF saga. Although not quite as strong as Ultimate Gohan initially, Piccolo's death did cause him to enrage to the point where his Super Saiyan form is like Ultimate Gohan level or at least stronger than Gotenks. SSJ Gohan during the RoF saga was also comparible to Gotenks. We saw Gotenks fight Togama and that SSJ Gohan over powered a stronger Togama possessed by Ginyu.

      Caulifa Vs Pride Troopers was still PIS, everyone still got knocked out in the end where as the U6 Saiyans still lasted a long while and fought very well against the 3-A forms of Goku and Vegeta.

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    • So what should we do here in summary?

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    • Nothing, really! The U6 saiyans don't scale to those downgraded pride troopers because the pride troopers were the ones originally scaled to the saiyans and later it was decided not to scale them and downgrade them. So...probably close it.

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    • Yeah, I think the thread should just be closed. Nothing is new here anyway.

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    • Okay. I will do so.

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