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  • AKM sama
    AKM sama closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    11:11, March 12, 2020

    As much as he is a meme, I think I need to do this:

    Introduction

    Thunder McQueen is one of the biggest memes on this wiki for one reason, his VS Match record. Having 19 losses and a buttload of incons, he is the symbol of Inconclusive Matches along with SCP 682 and Ness. However, problem is that these matches are often very unfair and aren't desicive at all, which violates the VS Thread rules.

    The Losses

    He has 19 losses, but some of them are so bad stomps I don't know how they got added in the 1st place, the matches that are stomps are:

    Steven Universe: A tier 7/6 VS a 9-C, McQueen has no way to win, massive stomp

    Joseph Joestar: Joseph is 8-C, McQueen has no way to harm him

    Kenshi: An 8-C VS a 9-C, AP stomp and thunder has no way to harm him

    SCP-106: Unsure, But I think this is a hax stomp and he can't be harmed physically

    Josuke Higashikata (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure) Josuke's Profile: 8-C+ Durability means Thunder McQueen can't scratch him, McQueen has no chance of winning

    Monarch of Pointland: McQueen can't even touch him (Big F since this was one of the funniest matchups ever)

    Robbie Rotten: Even post revisions Robbie will be 9-B+, Meaning Robbie's durability is far superior to thunder mcqueen and Robbie Rotten stomps

    Phoenix Wright: 9-B VS 9-C means One shot

    Four: Four is 5-A, McQueen can't scratch him at all, How the heck was this added?????

    Terunosuke Miyamoto: McQueen can't harm him due to building level durability

    Moe Szyslak: An 8-C VS a 9-C, AP Stomp

    Homer Simpson: Homer AP Stomps, McQueen can't harm him at all due to regeneration, immortality, and far superior durability, AND HtH doesn't work either since Homer can just ressurect. Thunder McQueen can't even incon

    Inconclusive Problem

    AND, Most of incons should be removed as well. Even though it was an incon, McQueen couldn't harm X character 99% of the time at all, that is a stomp since he is badly outclassed. The incon isn't desicive, It's Mcqueen not being able to scratch the character which makes it EXTREMELY unfair. The ones that are mismatches are:

    Thanos: As weak as MCU Thanos is, McQueen is WAY weaker and he can't scratch Thanos

    Son Goku: Same thing, immensely 4-B dura VS a weak 9-C

    Hulk (This was My match): BUT, This was a mismatch due to Hulk being leagues ahead in durability

    Violet Evergarden Same as above

    Saitama: Due to SBA this means he is high 6-A, Mismatch. Even if it's pre training it's 9-B VS 9-C and a mismatch

    Monkey D. Luffy: It isn't fair since McQueen can't harm him

    Naruto Uzumaki: Same as above

    Ichigo Kurosaki: Same as above

    Wobbuffet​​​: Same as above

    The Rake: 9-B Dura VS 9-C means a mismatch

    Botamo: Likely same as above due to universal durability

    Thanos: Same as above

    Tracer: Same as above

    Star Butterfly: Same as above

    Karkat Vantas: Same as above

    Accelerator: Same as above

    Aeril Vi Arcadia: Due to SBA McQueen can't harm her


    Negative Man: McQueen can't harm him at all.

    Conclusion

    In Conclusion:

    • half of these losses are stomps due to massive AP and Durability advantages and lack of any wincons for McQueen
    • 90% of his incons are also pretty bad stomps/mismatches due to the same reason and they need to be removed
    • To stop this, a note or a VS Threads rule needs to be added which bans people from making McQueen spite matches against people from far higher tiers

    Agree With the losses and incons going: 17??? (Ionlisite, Buttersami, Efficente???? Elizhaa, Physcomaster, HeadlessGamerKreof777, Ciruno Fortress, Dargoo Faust, Walker123, The Calaca, GoCommitDi, Overlord775, C2 of Omegon, DarkDragonMedeus, CropFist, Zark2099, AKM Sama, Sir Ovens)

    Agree with the losses but not the incons going: 3 (Ipatius the Impaler, Ivory AS, Bedroombedrock)

    Disagree with any of them going: 0

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    • Werent all of his matches supposed to be removed for being regarded as spite? He barely even has any wincons, and his usual tactic is to commit suicide to trigger Highway to Hell, but commiting suicide already means he already lost. So, he barely has any good matches where he can win.

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    • Seems like all his fights should be removed. He doesn’t seem to have anyway to actually hurt 99 percent of them at all

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    • Many of his incons are also like this (Hulk, Thanos, Supes), but he didn't lose, he inconned

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    • I’ll make a list of the ones I think should be removed and the reasons why.

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    • Including the ones I you said. The losses that should be removed are

      Monarch of Pointland. He can’t interact with him at all. (This hurts me to get removed. I love that he loss this)

      Kamijou Touma. Starts out in his highest key. Which makes him untouchable to McQueen

      SCP-106. He can’t take direct physical damage. So, McQueen can’t win.

      Milagro Man. Same thing. Can’t interact with them. So stomp.

      Terunosuke Miyamoto. No way McQueen can injure them. Building durability

      Rumble. 9-B. Can’t hurt nore can take a hit


      And as for his inconclusives.

      All except for

      Doppelgangers

      And Reynardine

      Those three should be fine. The rest should be yeeted

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
       

      Kamijou Touma. Starts out in his highest key. Which makes him untouchable to McQueenlity

      What do you mean? Touma is 9-C physically

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    • Touma's high 1-C is his powernull, which means he negs HtH but it is fair since both are in the same tier and it is a physical fight

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    • Wait a minute, why would his incons be removed?????

      Are incons where 1 character is badly outmatched now stomps under the new system???????

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    • Wasn't TMQ's fight with steven supposed to get removed anyway because of how useless talking TMQ out of suicide is against him

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    • Looks like someone already made a thread about this, but it's old and it wasn't resolved so let's finish this once and for all!!!!!!!!!!

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    • The issue is most of them don't have a win condition either, because they cant reliably put him down either, without killing themselves. That's why its inconclusive

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    • Yea. It isn’t a case where they tie because it’s too close to call, or they can take each other down same time. It’s just that one flat out can’t win at all.

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    • Yeah, yeet them, the meme has to die we have Ness now anyways.

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    • I’m gonna try and ask staff for input

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    • I already asked elizhaa who said she will look into this tomorrow and efficiente who didn't respond

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    • I agree with the removal of those matches.

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    • Wait, do you also want the incons to be removed as well or only the losses

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    • The Rake (Comic) fight should be removed as Thunder couldn't physically harm him.

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    • Wait, how could McQueen not be able to harm him

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    • 9-B durability vs 9-C attack

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    • Add the Other losses and inconclusives to the OP

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    • What other losses, the rest were fair due to mcqueen being able to harm them, the one with the digital gravity falls character is fair since thunder mcqueen can BFR him????

      I will add the incons

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    • I agree wiith the eemoval of these matches.

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    • Including the incons????

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    • Yeah.

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    • I agree with removing the losses (and nothing else).

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    • Why??????????

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    • Alrighty. So, should we go ahead and be good for removal then

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    • No, we need more people to agree.

      Which staff did you ask???

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    • Why? We got a content and discussion mod agreeing to it. Do we need a specific amount or something

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    • I think it's best to ask a few more staff just for more solid confirmation, plus, we don't know if Efficiente agreed on the incons being removed

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    • For my reasonings, yeah, I agree with losses and inconclusives being removed as well.

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    • I don't know if his match with lightning mcqueen should be removed, he DOES have 9-B dura, but can't mcqueen harm him by attacking the car

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    • Lightning is wall level. Both durability and attack wise. So yes. It should be removed

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    • I'm all for nuking his Others section.

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    • A few of his losses/incons are fair though

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    • I feel like the avenger match should be removed, he is 9-B and much stronger than people than mcqueen

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      A few of his losses/incons are fair though

      His incons are all technically fair.

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    • No, because almost all of his incons have McQueen not having a way to win at all, the fight isn't desicive at all

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    • Actually, a few of these could be viable, if he decides to inflict self harm and his opponent succumbs to the damage first then technically it's a win for him. But that depends entirely on stamina and endurance, which is something we tend to forget exist. 

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    • Problem is that almost of his opponents aren't like him and vastly exceed him in every way that he doesn't HAVE a way to win, Thanos, Goku, Ichigo, Hulk, Naruto, Superman, etc, are all massive mismatches

      Also, I thought HtH means that you need the person to harm you 

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    • The only good Inconclusive matches at best (I’m skeptical about two of them too) is

      Doppelgangers

      Ethan

      And Reynardine

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    • Probably, I'm just saying that in a handful of cases, stamina/endurance despite his stats, could actually give him a wincondition and make things viable given he's shown good endurance himself. It isnt that black and white but youre probably right on a good handful being mismatch.  

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    • I think these incons can be fine:


      Ditto

      Reynardine 

      Ethan 

      Doppelgangers 

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    • Sans is a no. Small building

      Ditto is a no I would think cause any Pokémon GG him. Even Magikarp has wall stuff

      Reynardine Is Fine

      Ethan is fine I suppose

      Doppelgangers are fine

      Negative man is a no. He still can harm a city level. Be it minimal damage. A wall level alone couldn’t leave even a dent

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      Sans is a no. Small building

      Ditto is a no I would think cause any Pokémon GG him.

      Reynardine Is Fine

      Ethan is fine I suppose

      Doppelgangers are fine

      Negative man is a no.

      It's fair because Ditto turns into another McQueen

      Negative Man should be fine, McQueen and Negative Man won due to killing themselves at the same time and negative man doesn't fight

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    • Ahh. Ok. If that’s the case. Ditto should be fine then

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      Buttersamuri wrote:
      Sans is a no. Small building

      Ditto is a no I would think cause any Pokémon GG him.

      Reynardine Is Fine

      Ethan is fine I suppose

      Doppelgangers are fine

      Negative man is a no.

      It's fair because Ditto turns into another McQueen

      Negative Man should be fine, McQueen and Negative Man won due to killing themselves at the same time and negative man doesn't fight

      Negative man does fight. He just does minimal damage. SBA means they are willing to kill. So he would be willing to attack. He isn’t even suicidal in the sense of I’m going to kill my self. He just lets his opponents attack him. And gives minimal damage attacks. Which still taps him out of existence. And McQueen still isn’t hurting him at all. McQueen has no win condition

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    • His AP is unknown, not Low 7-B. Oh yeah, so looks like that has to be removed as well

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: His AP is unknown, not Low 7-B.

      Also, Negative Man is just as suicidal as McQueen

      Again. He does damage to a city level. That’s plenty high enough. The feat itself is vastly superior to Street

      And again. He doesn’t try and kill him self. At no point does he ever do that. He lets his opponent attack him. Hoping they will do the job.

      And finally. He still has durability beyond McQueens output. He can Not win. At all. No way. 0 chance

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    • I'm going to reorganize the OP

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    • So, like I had said above.

      Reynardine Is Fine

      Ethan is fine I suppose

      Doppelgangers are fine

      Ditto is good too

      Those are the ok matches to keep I say

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    • And ditto

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    • Right. Added


      But there isn’t any controversy to get them removed. It should be fine since staff agreed.

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    • >And finally. He still has durability beyond McQueens output. He can Not win. At all. No way. 0 chance 

      As said, this is when things like endurance comes into play. If McQueen decides to hang himself, who's going out first? That type of thing.  

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    • Chariot190 wrote: >And finally. He still has durability beyond McQueens output. He can Not win. At all. No way. 0 chance 

      As said, this is when things like endurance comes into play. If McQueen decides to hang himself, who's going out first? That type of thing.  

      Ehh no. It kills them both same time. They both still die in the end

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    • I think we should make a Note on his page asking do not put him in matches that are obviously out of his tier (and are spite matches essentially). To prevent fights like Goku vs McQueen from happening

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    • >Ehh no. It kills them both same time. They both still die in the end 

      Yeah for more drastic things like exploding, complete goring, etc. Something like that though is basically who can withstand asphyxiation the longest. Well, unless he breaks his neck attemping it. It's situational basically. 

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    • A situation which is neither realistic, going to happen, and a valid enough win condition.

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    • Thing is thought that none of his opponents were suicidal so that outliving condition wincon is useless for all of these matches

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    • Depends on the situation, it' realistic giventhat was his first initial lead in canon and something he tends to always have access to given he just whips out his belt he has on to do it. 

      Depends on the match, he cuold, he could not. It being valid depends on the match as well. Case by case. 

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    • Well, I'll just say that that won;t make any of the unfair matches here fair

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    • Disagree. That’s a situation that doesn’t realistically happen. There are cherry picked ones at best that could maybe fit it. But that’s entirely useless here as that win wouldn’t work at all for any of these fights

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Thing is thought that none of his opponents were suicidal so that outliving condition wincon is useless for all of these matches

      Think we can add this to the bottom of the OP as well

      “I think we should make a Note on his page asking do not put him in matches that are obviously out of his tier (and are spite matches essentially). To prevent fights like Goku vs McQueen from happening”

      I already see people making more of these fights and it’s about time to stop em

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    • >That’s a situation that doesn’t realistically happen. There are cherry picked ones at best that could maybe fit it. 

      It's actually quite realistic in in character speed equal matches. Most of the ways he himself actually attempts suicide apply, in fact he tends to whip out hanging or drowning almost immediatly as that's what we see in the source material.  

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    • Wait, but that means the opponent outlives McQueen and wins

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    • No it is not. Because he is in a fight. Why would the opponent just stand there and let it happen. Most of these people fire a blast before he can even make the note. And I don’t think he even has the proper stuff on him up hang himself. On top of that. Why would he suddenly stop hanging himself should he outlive. (As unreal as it is with most all his fights).

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    • Killing himself means the opponent outlives, that isn't a wincon

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    • > Why would the opponent just stand there and let it happen. Most of these people fire a blast before he can even make the note. And I don’t think he even has the proper stuff on him up hang himself 

      Depends on SBA distance and both fighters being just as fast as each other. That's true, depends on starting distance, what they do in character and more, it isnt this black and white. I just said he has a belt on him that he uses to do exactly that, it's literally what he did like in his debut, he got his belt, then hanged himself and caught ermes in it.  

      >Wait, but that means the opponent outlives McQueen and wins 

      Sometimes, depends on the characters stamina or endurance. McQueen despite his tendencies has some good endurance.  

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    • Use that for future fights but for these matches that doesn't work

      Killing himself isn't a win, it's a loss, the opponent outlives him

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    • Someone who has a range weapon and starts at range is 99 percent of the time using that ranged. That’s the only reason they would be at a range unless specified. Which is a cherry picked situation. And my point still stands that he still kills himself in the end which is not a win

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      Someone who has a range weapon and starts at range is 99 percent of the time using that ranged. That’s the only reason they would be at a range unless specified. Which is a cherry picked situation. And my point still stands that he still kills himself in the end which is not a win

      Actually SBA sets the range automatically, if given large enough distance McQueen actually has time to do something like that in speed equal. It isnt cherry picking, do you understand what that means? It's things that he himself always tends to go for, it isnt cherry picking it's literally his leads. 

      Actually, he tends to fails him killing himself for one reason or another, sometmes outside interference, sometimes he just lives and it fails. He could very easily kill an opponent and somehow live himself, that's where stamina/endurance comes into play. 

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    • It sets it at the persons longest range. If someone has hundreds of meters due to their gun. That’s where they start. Yes. And I’m saying. If they are starting that far away due to having a range weapon. They would use it 99 percent of the time. Cause why wouldn’t they. It is a cherry picked situation if a person without range started at a distance away cause that’s a specific situation that is different to what the average is.

      Still pretty unrealistic. Especially in a fight,

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    • Yeah? They can use that weapon, issue is will it kill McQueen before he just starts to hang himself? It doesnt take long, iirc it happened so fast that ermes barely had any time to realize what was going on. 

      Well no, if the character is only melee and that's their range then well, McQueen proboably cant do anything fast enough. 

      All I'm saying is take into account stamina, endurance and in character type things because as odd as it may seem, having higher end stats may not mean it's automatically a mismatch if McQueen is given the opportunity to do something like asphyxiate himself, which is his usual lead and something that happens very quick given he has the method on him, because at that point it becomes who can survive longer and will the opponent die before McQueen lives on the off chance that happens? 

      >Still pretty unrealistic. Especially in a fight, 

      It's literally his go to and something he can do with ease and quickly at that. 

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    • i agree with removing the losses but not the incons, I feel like that would set a terrible precedent

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    • tbh im fine taking matches off if they are in fact mismatches, I just think looking at stats and going yeah thats a mismatch is being a tad to jumpy.  

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    • Well, if you see your opponent is a 4-B or a 7-A you know it's a mismatch at the start unless you are ENIAC or the old fox

      All of the losses are mismatches due to stats alone, McQueen can't scratch them

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    • Depends honestly on what the matches starting distance was, in character, speed equal and the character in question. You're probably right most were in fact mismatches, but ya gotta take into consideration other possibilities as well. Even if it's very unlikely he'd even harm em. 

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    • Do you have All Star Battle Carrot69?

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    • I do yes.  

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    • Why are yall pretending like he cant harm them? Of course he can, his stand bypasses durability. If his enemy can't put him down either, then the incon is still valid

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote: Why are yall pretending like he cant harm them? Of course he can, his stand bypasses durability. If his enemy can't put him down either, then the incon is still valid

      Because he can’t harm them without killing himself. He physically can’t harm them. At all. Only the stand can. And the stand requires him to take the same damage. He literally would have to kill him self to kill them. Aka. Not a valid win condition, or a win condition at all.

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    • Yes, but the vast majority of the enemies cannot put him down without killing themselves in the process. His stand harming them is him harming them, even if the process still hurts him. They are in the same boat here

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    • And thus runs into the issue that they simply don’t have win conditions at all. There is 0 chance. Which is not an inconclusive. It’s a stomp. Not to mention the tier difference. Sans got his fights yeeted for the same reason of tier difference alone. This as well fits under it

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    • Tier difference in and of itself is not reason for a stomp. If it is a match like him against Saitama where he cannot harm Saitama without Highway to hell, but Saitama cannot harm him in a way that the damage will not transfer, then it isn't a stomp. If neither competitor has win conditions, that's an inconclusive, not a stomp

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    • It is if the person has 0 way to actually activately kill them without both of them ending up dead. McQueens only way to hurt and kill them is to kill him self. Which is not a win, and not valid for a fight at all.

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    • No, if neither side has a way to win then that is a valid match. It's literally a text book definition of an inconclusive match. It's no different from a match between 2 characters with passive hax, where the match is decided before it even began. 

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    • If you claim it’s textbook, show where it actually says that on the wiki, because currently, those don’t follow under the wikis rules of stomp and spite threads.

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    • Textbook meaning open and closed, not as in it is written down. Explain to me how a match where neither person can win is a stomp, since the definition of a stomp requires that the Match be one sided, and since it is equally likely for each person to win, it cannot be one sided. In addition, explain to me how it can be spite, when neither character is losing or even capable of losing the match

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    • Because it’s a spite fight. 99 percent of McQueens fights are absolute pure spite. Just cause “haha, he can tie with so and so”. Nobody can win, it’s purely for spite, and it’s so obvious, the OP even knows it. At least fights like against that doctor guy, he could win by putting McQueen to sleep. And they both were physically comparable. Goku and Superman is spite

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    • Gonna vote for the removal of said matches too. I agree with OP. There are legitimately fair and fun matches for TMQ, but most of the time yeah they're not great

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    • Eh, while im against doing matches with the intention of doing it for a very specific intention of an outcome. tbf, it's a neutral outcome and honestlym, that's all he's ever gonna get usually. 

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      Because it’s a spite fight. 99 percent of McQueens fights are absolute pure spite. Just cause “haha, he can tie with so and so”. Nobody can win, it’s purely for spite, and it’s so obvious, the OP even knows it. At least fights like against that doctor guy, he could win by putting McQueen to sleep. And they both were physically comparable. Goku and Superman is spite

      The spite page makes it clear that it is a spite thread if one side loses and is about humiliation. No one is trying to "humiliate" McQueen, nor his enemy, and no one is losing these matches. Therefore, they cannot be spite threads. If the match is made in good faith, as most of these are, then they aren't spite threads, and are completely fine. Walking into a thread with an outcome in mind is not spite 

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    • They aren’t made in good faith. Their made because everyone knows that McQueen is the go to to get an inconclusive. They are spite. One doesn’t have to win for it not to be spite. This is clearly just buffing up his inconclusives by making him fight the sane exact fight over and over with no chance of winning or losing

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    • Spite matches have to be with the intention of a loss, as the page explicitly says. A match being made with an inconclusive in mind is 100% ok, and that's in good faith since it isn't made for the detriment of either character. Care to explain what the issue is with making matches that are not bad for either side? No one loses anything by having the matches br added to the profiles. 

      682 is another example of a character with many matches being made with the intention of Inconclusive, and no one has issue with that

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    • I heard from discussion mods that matches which no one can harm another is a mismatch and I see matches closed for that reason

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    • Eh, they can harm each other, I think the issue with McQueen is that, they just wont or doing so is the catalyst to inconclusive.  

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      Spite matches have to be with the intention of a loss, as the page explicitly says. A match being made with an inconclusive in mind is 100% ok, and that's in good faith since it isn't made for the detriment of either character. Care to explain what the issue is with making matches that are not bad for either side? No one loses anything by having the matches br added to the profiles. 

      682 is another example of a character with many matches being made with the intention of Inconclusive, and no one has issue with that

      SCP 682 and X character have ways to harm each other though

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      I heard from discussion mods that matches which no one can harm another is a mismatch and I see matches closed for that reason

      It's a mismatch only if one side has win conditions and the other doesn't. AP difference in and of itself means nothing, as can be seen from most smurf fights

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      SCP 682 and X character have ways to harm each other though

      Nah, look at the green baby fight

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    • I agree with both going

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    • To summarize my vote, I agree with the removal of the losses, and the inconclusive matches where only McQueen's enemy has win conditions while he does not. However, I think I have successfully proven in the discussion above that matches where neither of the participants can win are fine to remain on the profile. 

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    • What laos said

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    • You haven’t exactly proven that no. They still fall under stomp/spite matches on our terms and should be removed. You are going based of what you think and not what are the rules here. Their meme haha spite fights. Plenty of then have been removed for the and reasons. Such as Broly, and they all should fall under the same ruling and should all be removed.

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    • Honestly if someone's gonna rack up an incon just because "Oneshot TMQ, oh no they're dead too" that itself makes itself a horrible match. It's predictable. Thus there's no need to record that in the profile. That's like saying a Tier 2 beats Tier 8. It's redundant and unnecessarily blots out the page

      It's what we expect. What should be listed as ties are actual matches where it could go as a win for either side, and not just a tie in the first place.

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      You haven’t exactly proven that no. They still fall under stomp/spite matches on our terms and should be removed. You are going based of what you think and not what are the rules here. Their meme haha spite fights. Plenty of then have been removed for the and reasons. Such as Broly, and they all should fall under the same ruling and should all be removed.

      It can only be spite if one side loses, as is blatantly spelled out on the spite page, and it also cannot be a spite since the Matches are made in good faith. Stomps are also only stomps when one side loses. No one is losing these matches, therefore it cannot be spite and cannot be a stomp. I am going off of "what I think" in that I am going on exactly what the stomp and spite pages say. You are also just going on "what you think" but unlike me, your view does not match up with the pages. 

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    • Ciruno Fortes wrote:
      Honestly if someone's gonna rack up an incon just because "Oneshot TMQ, oh no they're dead too" that itself makes itself a horrible match. It's predictable. Thus there's no need to record that in the profile. That's like saying a Tier 2 beats Tier 8. It's redundant and unnecessarily blots out the page

      It's what we expect. What should be listed as ties are actual matches where it could go as a win for either side, and not just a tie in the first place.

      If you decide that it is a horrible match, that is fine, you are entitled to your opinion, but you can't get them removed from the profiles based on that subjective claim unless you can find a rule it violates. 

      Then go to half of the fights between users of type 8 and 9 immortality, and get them removed first. It is standard policy that these kinds of matches are acceptable. 

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    • I mean, a redundant match is a redundant. Unless anything different about the character fighting Thunder is that really changes the situation, it's just the same battle that's gonna be an add on tie. Nothing different.

      I'm not against that all. In fact I'm fully supporting that. But I don't spend as much time here as I used to so... Someone else's gotta start doing that and I'll be there in the back cheering on.

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    • Bump

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    • Considering nearly all of Thunder's matches are more joke threads than serious debate, I agree with most if not all of the OP's points.

      I'd prefer seeing all the battles being axed, but that's just my opinion.

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    • Matches can be funny without being purely joke threads. 

      I'll say this: if the general rule on the wiki changes towards inconclusive matches where neither has win conditions, then I shall agree to the battles being axed, but otherwise, it's a double standard

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    • I don’t believe it actually does say that. It’s not written down like that. If that’s just you jumping to that conclusion, that’s not a double standard. The page just doesn’t cover that situation, that means it should be updated to cover such a situation. Currently though. McQueens fights were jokes, obvious, and redundant. And really they should be nuked

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      Considering nearly all of Thunder's matches are more joke threads than serious debate, I agree with most if not all of the OP's points.

      I'd prefer seeing all the battles being axed, but that's just my opinion.

      So the matches I listed are to be fine with being removed????

      Also, since everyone at least agreed on the listed losses to be removed, can I least remove those before we talk about the incons???

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    • why do you always put multiple question marks

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      I don’t believe it actually does say that. It’s not written down like that. If that’s just you jumping to that conclusion, that’s not a double standard. The page just doesn’t cover that situation, that means it should be updated to cover such a situation. Currently though. McQueens fights were jokes, obvious, and redundant. And really they should be nuked

      It's the working rule, even if it isn't written down. If we are truly going to start removing matches with no win conditions, then that should be done in all cases. Again, matches being funny or being made as "memes" doesn't invalidate then inherently, unless the match would usually violate rules which are not applied to joke battles. There are plenty of spam characters who's matches could be called memes but they still fly. Redundancy is another issue, but I can think of multiple characters who have multiple matches where no one can put the other down, yet they are not considered invalid under the duplicate rule. Like it or not, the redundancy rules is not enforced outside of matches against multiple forms of the same character (like if 2 characters had the same ability in different tiers and were put against eachother in each tier) or if they are incredibly similar characters from the same verse. An outcome being obvious does not make it invalid either, at least not on its own

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    • It’s not a double standard, and it isn’t even something I or others agree to. You may believe it like it’s one. But that doesn’t make it one. I do believe any fight that fits the some context should be removed.

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    • So you are just going "no it isn't" then? Explain to me how arbitrarily deciding that one character's matches with no win conditions for either side should be removed when another persons matches can remain in those same conditions. It's cool if you think that anyone who fits those conditions should, but this needs to be something the wiki as a whole officially decides to agree with

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    • I’m going off of the fact your trying to use a rule that was never written down, and hasn’t been agreed upon as a reason to keep these matches up. This is an important enough detail it should be written down. I simply do not agree that if they both lack win conditions from the start, it shouldn’t be added. Especially for McQueen, WHOS fights were most all utter jokes

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    • This seems like something that should be in a new thread specifically about inconclusives

      As for now, can we remove his losses

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    • > Also, since everyone at least agreed on the listed losses to be removed, can I least remove those before we talk about the incons???

      If there's a general consensus, sure.

      > Again, matches being funny or being made as "memes" doesn't invalidate then inherently, unless the match would usually violate rules which are not applied to joke battles.

      Alright, so since we're being sticklers for picking at my wording about this, let me rephrase "the battles were obviously made as jokes should be removed" to "battles where Thunder has no capacity to win that are functionally AP stomps were made as jokes and should be removed".

      I believe that's a fine excuse for nuking the battles.

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    • Let me ask you this: 

      What makes a match where a star level fighter slaps a street level fighter into a red mist coating the grass of central park, but doing so makes the star level fighter a second layer of mist, different from a planet level fighter slapping a building level with enough force that they would have taken the same fate as the first 2 if it wasnt for his hax making it so that someone else on the other side of the planet is vaporized instead, and the only way they could actually take out enough people that their opponent can't reflect anymore is blowing up the planet along with himself? On paper of course, unless you have an arbitrary difference between how exactly the lack of win conditions for either side is produced

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    • > What ... himself?

      Both of those matchups are pretty terrible and shouldn't exist, if you ask me.

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      Let me ask you this: 

      What makes a match where a star level fighter slaps a street level fighter into a red mist coating the grass of central park, but doing so makes the star level fighter a second layer of mist, different from a planet level fighter slapping a building level with enough force that they would have taken the same fate as the first 2 if it wasnt for his hax making it so that someone else on the other side of the planet is vaporized instead, and the only way they could actually take out enough people that their opponent can't reflect anymore is blowing up the planet along with himself? On paper of course, unless you have an arbitrary difference between how exactly the lack of win conditions for either side is produced

      I don't get what you are saying, at all.

      Also, can I just remove the losses before we discuss the incons

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:
      > What ... himself?

      Both of those matchups are pretty terrible and shouldn't exist, if you ask me.

      Oh, don't get me wrong. There can be boring matches that are still viable to be added to the profiles. I don't think anyone is gonna say that a user of type 8 immortality against a user of type 9 immortality with the 2 of them just killing eachother for eternity, is a terribly interesting match. However, it is still a viable match under the current rule set, written or unwritten. 

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      I don't get what you are saying, at all.

      Also, can I just remove the losses before we discuss the incons

      I'm giving other scenarios that are allowed to be added and kept on profiles under the current rule set which are the same on paper as many of McQueen's inconclusives. 

      Oh yes, you are free to do so. Make sure you dont remove the losses where McQueen has proper win conditions tho

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    • I'll remove the matches in the OP

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    • > However, it is still a viable match under the current rule set, written or unwritten. 

      So I don't think you understood me.

      It's bad outside the context of the rules and inside of the context of the rules.

      A match where a character has no capacity to win but just doesn't lose based off of SBA is still an AP stomp. I also reccomend reading the Stomp page over, which also explains that "all potential stomps should be judged case by case", which I'm doing here.

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    • It's bad, but it isn't illegal according to the currently established rules. 

      But neither character has the capacity to win, and the stomp page, which I did read, said that these things only apply based on the winning character, and since there is no winner, they do not fall into "potential stomps." No one has the potential to stomp here, as neither have win conditions, which as the page you had told me to read says, the rules dictate that a stomp naturally must have a winner. 

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    • > only apply based on the winning character

      Not sure where you're getting that from. The page makes references to a 'winner' and 'loser', although the basic definiton that starts off the page only mentions "for all intents and purposes, one of the characters is unreasonably outmatched by their opponent". This is true for Thunder in AP, Durability, and a variety of other statistics, the only difference is that the outcome isn't a 'win' for him but mutual death for both characters. He has no capacity to win and his "outcomes [come] across as predictable to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the combatants and their abilities" for 90% of his battles.


      Although since we're getting into minutae here, the page, again, says that stomps are judged in a case-by-case basis with flexibility in judgement. I'm saying they're stomps, I'm telling you why I think they're stomps. You can contact other users or staff members to weigh in on this if you'd like.

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    • Dargoo, if you take a hax based fighter and then put them against an AP based fighter, of course you will be able to interpret almost any hax based fight as an AP stomp, if you intentionally remove their primary means of combat. This is like taking (if you haven't read Record of Ragnarok, it's really fucking good) the at least planet level Poseiden who is FTL vs Sasaki Kojiro who is a wall level skill based fighter who has a blade that let's him bypass durability give or take, and then take away the hax and skill. The point is, taking away the hax of the hax based fighter isn't a reliable nor reasonable interpretation. 

      If your interpretation comes down to removing the hax of a hax based fighter, then I guess you have successfully come up with a perfectly viable way that we don't apply to any other jojo characters or hax based fighters. Case-by-case has its limits, before something just straight up becomes a double standard. I'll contact some folks in the morning probably

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    • > Dargoo, if you take a hax based fighter and then put them against an AP based fighter, of course you will be able to interpret almost any hax based fight as an AP stomp, if you intentionally remove their primary means of combat.

      Who said I wasn't considering hax? Or removing hax? It's just that Thunder's hax can't be used in a single possible way to give him a conventional victory. I'm also pointing out that Thunder can't use his AP to win, or literally anything else he has.

      In which case whatever example you made doesn't really apply.

      > If your interpretation comes down to removing the hax of a hax based fighter, then I guess you have successfully come up with a perfectly viable way that we don't apply to any other jojo characters or hax based fighters. Case-by-case has its limits, before something just straight up becomes a double standard.

      I mean, of course you're going to find double standards when you're making up somone else's points, but sure.

      It has every single attribute that we define stomps under, attributes that made us ban adding stomps to profiles, except there isn't a winner, and I don't recall anything that says we can't have a stomp-inconclusive. The whole reason stomps are an issue to begin with is that we don't need a million different threads establishing a tier difference, or in this case, that Thunder has an ability certain people have no chance of countering. Go contact whoever you want, those are my two cents.

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    • "...although the basic definiton that starts off the page only mentions "for all intents and purposes, one of the characters is unreasonably outmatched by their opponent". This is true for Thunder in AP, Durability, and a variety of other statistics..." this is what you said in the pervious comment. You are only looking at AP to determine that they are unreasonably out matched. McQueen is equally likely to win as his opponent, so that is as fair as it gets, unless you remove the way that McQueen fights from the equation. If I have misunderstood your points, then please correct me, because it looks like you did exactly what I described in my previous comment

      I take that by your comment I have misunderstood what you said. What is your actual point? Because determining that thunder is out matched purely because he is physically disadvantaged despite that his opponent is as equally likely to win as he is due to his hax, sounds like what I thought you were trying to say. 

      The page says that one side must be out matched, which McQueen isn't. We define a stomp by the win conditions, and on paper, both sides are equally likely to win. This is the fundamental missing piece of the puzzle that makes it undoubtedly not a stomp. Stomps are innately unfair, which these are not

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    • > McQueen is equally likely to win as his opponent, so that is as fair as it gets, unless you remove the way that McQueen fights from the equation.

      That's sort of misrepresenting the situation, honestly. Neither character has any chances of winning, sure, but the inconclusive outcome is such a no-brainer not worth even bringing up that it falls under all our criteria for a stomp.

      > If I have misunderstood your points, then please correct me, because it looks like you did exactly what I described in my previous comment

      You did, clearly. "The only difference is that the outcome isn't a 'win' for him but mutual death for both characters" is talking about his hax. 

      This seems more an attempt to point out that I didn't specifically list it in that sentence than it is me not considering something everyone here is aware Thunder has in my argument.

      > What is your actual point?

      The matches are stomps, as they fall under our criteria for being stomps.

      > Because determining that thunder is out matched purely because he is physically disadvantaged despite that his opponent is as equally likely to win as he is due to his hax, sounds like what I thought you were trying to say. 

      I can get you being mistaken about my argument once, but after I made it abundantly clear that the AP difference is only a part of what makes the matches bad I really have no clue why you're still pursuing this point.

      > The page says that one side must be out matched, which McQueen isn't. We define a stomp by the win conditions, and on paper, both sides are equally likely to win. 

      Sure he is. He's outmatched in practically every statistic. His opponent is outmatched in regards to his hax. Neither have answers to the other, it's just that instead of a character winning 10/10 times it's mutual death 10/10 times.

      Quote specifically where the page says that stomp criteria only applies to the winning character, since you're so keen on saying this repeatedly.

      >  Stomps are innately unfair, which these are not

      This doesn't make sense particularly. Thunder's matches aren't fair for both characters involved, and I'll point out again that the defining characteristic of a stomp is the blatantly obvious outcome.

      "Outcomes [come] across as predictable to anyone with even cursory knowledge of the combatants and their abilities"

      Honestly, though, if you're so concerned about the page's specfic wording about these matches, I can make a seperate thread to update the page. You've already expressed you think the matches are in bad taste, so I'm sure you'd be fine with some tweaking on the page to make this more obvious.

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    • Yeah agreeing with Dargoo here

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    • Gonna bump

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    • While yes McQueen's matches may be considered a stomp by our definitions I think he may be one of the only times I think it's acceptable. Considering that the whole point of his character is him forcing all of these inconclusives against characters he doesn't have a chance to beat, is basically pulling a win for McQueen.

      Like you don't make a McQueen thread and expect him to win unless you think really hard about the extremely specific set of abilities required for him to ever pull a win in an actuall 'fair' fight, at least by our definitions of it.

      Doesn't this basically mean all McQueen threads from now on are automatically considered a stomp?

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    • I don’t wanna match ban him cause I don’t like that concept, and have had characters I like get matchban for reasons which I don’t agree with. But McQueen needs to be used more responsibly. We should have a possible note that must request don’t do fights like Goku, where there’s obviously no chance McQueen could win, and where Goku kills himself obviously in the process. It’s a meme that’s tired out. If he fights people, at least him having a chance to win by facing someone on his actual level. Heck. He has won against 2 others before. As in won the fight entirely. I don’t think we have to stop using him. Just stop the Haha Funny tie meme that’s been happening. Ok, we get it. Thor, Goku, Superman, Hulk, and other gods tie with him. Funny. But let’s keep these fights to his level now please. People like say Arthur Fleck, Ethan, Ect. Just people he can actually fight and win against.

      And no. There have been a few fair McQueen fights he lost. There are street levels who won through hacks. It’s just that, characters who fight him should at least be within level and reason that McQueen could logically win a fight with

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    • He shouldn't be matchbanned, but he needs actual matches where it's actually desicive and not  "Guy with trillions AP difference breathes, McQueen dies, HtH"

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    • Yea. That basically. He has fought with street levelers and both won and loss before. Those are the kinds of matches he should have. Even Sad Larry is decent enough. Just. No more haha, god tied with street level

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    • Agree With the losses and incons goinG

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    • In case there was some confusion, I'm not supporting match-banning him, just removing a lot of the mindless incons he has.

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    • Oh. I’m not supporting that either. I wasn’t meaning it like that. I was just saying I wouldn’t want to go as so far to match ban him. But, McQueen fights should be made more responsibly to the rules. So, people stop putting him up against Goku and such. Keep him within his tier and same rules that apply to most other characters.

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    • So. Can the fights be yeeted then

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    • I'd rather have another staff member weigh in, as it seems to have boiled down to a matter of rules interpretation.

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    • I'll ask some of the new discussion mods

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    • I'm all for yeeting his unfair matches in any of the three categories.

      What are fair? That's up to you.

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    • Thanks for the input

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    • I've considered upgrading McQueen for a while, but I didn't want to due to the matches. I may go through with it, I'm not sure

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    • The matches should be removed and redone if that is the case.

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    • Well they are gonna likely be yeeted regardless. So upgrading him would be the time to do it

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    • I still think my McQueen vs Eri match is incredibly fair

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    • I support McQueen’s Re-organization.

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    • If he gets upgraded, no matter what, I believe a match I intend to do with him may be fair to the point he can actually have a chance to win rather than have no chance of winning to the point its either his opponent or an inconclusive that takes it.

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    • I will throw in that I'm tenatively fine with incons and losses where there was actually a substantial amount of debate as to what outcome happens, by the way.

      So the main matches that would be removed are primarily the turbo-AP difference meme matches where it's kind of obvious what's going to happen, while a lot of the more nuanced threads should be acceptable.

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    • Does that mean I can request my Thunder vs Authority match to be closed due to being a mismatch?

      That aside, I can undestand what Iapitus is trying to say in terms of how incons work, but as Dargoo pointed out, what's the point in an incon if there's not really a way we can elaborate on how it would be an incon. Thunder McQueen's stand is literally Destiny Bond from Pokemon.

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    • Bump?

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    • I think it's clear on where this is heading. Since I've been for the removal of these matches for awhile I'll vote on keeping em off too.

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    • I think we should leave a note on McQueens Page to request people not to do fights such as Goku vs Thunder McQueen and others such joke fights. So we can prevent (or help prevent) such fights from happening down the line

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    • I agree with Butters about the note

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    • Oh, can't believe I forgot to say this: I agree with OP, this was way overdue

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    • bump

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • I agree with the matches being removed

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    • I agree that the matches should be removed. McQueen is a joke that has gone on too long.

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    • So, have we gotten enough agreement? Can we finally nuke him

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    • I was asked to give input, but not familiar with the character. What's the summary(s) for some of the thread removals?

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    • The Haha McQueen ties Joke needs to stop. As he is being put up agaisnt people he never could win. So anyone who is actually outside his tier gets removed, a few people such as Doctor sleep is fine since both are street level. But everything else gets yeeted and a Note on the page possibly to request people not to do fights such as Goku vs McQueen anymore

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Please. Let’s put an end to this tired out Meme

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    • I agree with this.

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    • No

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    • This has gone on long enough tbh.

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    • Does McQueen's stand even guarantee death by the way? I mean sure his stand fuckery damages Ermes Costello it seems, who is 8-C+, but given stands do tend to be 8-C+ anyways, why do we assume his stand to work on say, a character an entire tier above, to the same effect? This seems exceptionally NLF considering those propeller thingies don't tend to perfectly imitate the method of death anyhow.

      Like, as an example, if a character like Thanos were to just punch and split off McQueen's entire arm, why are we assuming a stand which can only brute force an 8-C+ for his feats can split that arm despite it would requiring a far superior strength level than McQueen's stand can pull off?

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    • Zark, do you understand how durability negation works? 

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    • Mate I'm arguing I don't think it's dura neg, it harms an 8-C+ like it should. Nothing implies it negated her 8-C+ completely for the sake of killing her. It can bypass durability in some scenarios, sure, but it ain't splitting atoms or anything.

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    • Put me in the agree list for removing the matches.

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    • Highway to Hell isn't dura neg, it's lifting strength. I wanted to make a thread about this proper but I guess I'll just say it here.

      It's very explicitly lifting strength because the propellers have to push their target to copy McQueen's death and placement. That being said, Highway to Hell doesn't have feats above 8-C+, so Highway to Hell affecting anyone above that is massive NLF, especially with the case of Superman who has both greater durability and lifting strength.

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    • I think we have enough people approving to purge the matches.

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    • Alrighty.

      As well. @Sir Ovens. Should we make more of that on his page so those kinds of fights don’t further happen?

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    • I mean it's a straight up revision since it implies HtH has no dura neg, so that'll be removed from Thunder's page

      If we're reclassifying it as LS, we need a rating for it, what is the required rating to crush a throat?

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    • Sir Ovens wrote:
      Highway to Hell isn't dura neg, it's lifting strength. I wanted to make a thread about this proper but I guess I'll just say it here.

      It's very explicitly lifting strength because the propellers have to push their target to copy McQueen's death and placement. That being said, Highway to Hell doesn't have feats above 8-C+, so Highway to Hell affecting anyone above that is massive NLF, especially with the case of Superman who has both greater durability and lifting strength.

      That's completely false. Ermes saw wounds and scars appearing on her without noticing them before. If they were inflicted through raw strength she would have felt it. Also, explain how starvation, poisoning, suffocation, making cuts and scars just appear, etc. Can be done through lifting strength please. 

      We don't pull the NLF card for any other durability negation user until it hits a higher dimensional level, so unless we are overhauling wiki policy across the site, that's not going away. 

      Also, about the propellers thing, those don't appear even the majority of the time, and most of the time when they do, they are just visual and contribute nothing to the means of death. 

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    • Zark2099 wrote:
      Mate I'm arguing I don't think it's dura neg, it harms an 8-C+ like it should. Nothing implies it negated her 8-C+ completely for the sake of killing her. It can bypass durability in some scenarios, sure, but it ain't splitting atoms or anything.

      How would organ failure, bleeding out, spawning cuts, and death replication in general not be durability negation? Also, yes it did. His stand replicates damage and death, but doesn't have uses beyond that (I mean, the location sharing obviously included in the previous usage). Let's say for a moment that for some reason it cannot do damage that extreme. If McQueen's heart explodes on impact from a punch above his tier, then that is going to at the very least make it so his target's heart also ain't beating and he severely damaged. 

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    • Eh, depends on the death I guess. We know it can induce death in others via things like McQueen simply starving to death so it's a bit more than just a simple attempt to recreate McQueen's situation via physical statistics given even starvation is fair game to it.  

      Case by case, judge the situation and deduce if HTH is going to being be negating durability in that context or not.  

      Something like hanging I guess would fall under physical application, but not all deaths would. It's up to you to use your judgement to deduce if it's actually doing so depending on the situation. 

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote: snip

      Is that ever shown to happen explicitly like that? That an organ just randomly exploded to replicate the thing without a single showcase of the propellers or another visual attacking it? If so, gg, if not, if not, you're NLFing hard with these hypotheticals that never happened. If I wanna suppose I can make 7 new Tier 0s that way.

      I recall the only time we do see it attempting to replicate physical damage is through brute force, so why are we assuming a stand can replicate physicals something 100x stronger than it's best showcase?

      Also Chariot, you're defining the stands ability to bypass durability, not negate it. I agree it can very well bypass durability under certain conditions, why are we assuming it negates something a bajillion times stronger than it like Superman when it's best feat is 8-C+ and it has little to no statement of replicating some damage no matter how strong it is.

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    • Dude, what in the actual hell are you talking about. Yes, it has, or it was going to. It was replicating frying his internal organs for example, the exploding thing was me being hyperbolic, not literal. My point is, even if you wanna try and say that the absolute most damaging shit like atomization may not be fully replicated, at the very least they will be forced into not functioning, as it has already shown the ability to fry them into not functioning. I have no idea what tier 0 has to do with working within the bounds of what has been shown. 

      Well you recall wrong my friend. Shit like scars and cuts got replicated on Ermes by just coming into existence, to the point that she didn't even feel pain, and only got shocked when she saw more appearing. She even got scars from way in the past that he had added to her wrists, which is not something you can get through brute force, unless you feel like giving Highway to hell baseless time acceleration, but that's the only real alternative in that case. 

      It doesn't need to be the full replication, if we even grant what you are saying. Outside of possible high enough regeneration as a counter, any thing that can't counter your heart being diced or an equivalent amount of damage it's still killing. You would 4 billion percent notice something slicing your arm repeatedly over time, but what you wouldnt notice is wounds being replicated via sympathetically making wounds appear already inflicted. Think of the way that Lancer of Black creates the state of someone being impaled as opposed go impaling them. McQueen did not cut Ermes, he created the state of Ermes being cut, if that makes any sense. The previous does not bypass durability, the latter does.  

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    • Replicating a death =/= death manip

      Replicating starving isn't the same as inducing death upon a person. If anything, it's biological manip at it's best. Scars appearing isn't outside the realm of biological manip.

      Again, physical force needs to be replicated, and thus far, HtH has not replicated any strength above 8-C+.

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    • It is death manip technically, but it's not the kinda of "ooga booga I diagnose you with instant death" death hax that you often see. I do understand what you are trying to say tho. 

      I think you do make a good point here, but I wanna make sure I'm not being misunderstood. Describing most of what HtH as biological manip since it replicates factors that cause a biological shut down is acceptable to me, but it still stands that it bypasses durability

      Why does it need to be replicated via force tho? If it was just an issue of brute force, then the Electricity frying organs wouldn't have worked. Emporio explained this very well, if it is just an issue of Electricity then the body's natural resistance to electricity won't actually have it be fatal, but McQueen used salt water to make sure it would fry his internal organs into not functioning. This proves it isn't just about brute forcing it, since Ermes herself wasn't covered in salt water at all, yet she felt the effects as if she was. In addition, the wounds appearing without actually cutting her again proves that it bypasses durability and has nothing to do with brute force

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    • What's even going on here now? Thought we'd reach a conclusion by now.

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    • They trying to say it shouldn't be able to effect people beyond 8-C+ despite that standard being applied to literally no other offensive hax user on this wiki

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: What's even going on here now? Thought we'd reach a conclusion by now.

      Someone/Some people are trying to explain Highway to Hell's ability as lifting strength of all things.

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    • Wounds appearing on a character of the same strength level is not a basis to assume it is negating durability since you can't really prove that if The Thing cuts you, a human, with a knife using average human level force, the same damage would be be reflected upon him too.

      Same for passing electricity through the body, which is a good conductor of electricity. You don't need salt water to have electricity pass through you. Maybe only the process/cause is being reflected, its result/effect could still depend on the other individual.

      Unless you have scans that show otherwise?

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    • Ermes and McQueen aren't of the same strength tho, where did you get that idea? Also, HtH replicates damage that cannot be replicated through raw AP, and it does not actually cut people, it just makes the cuts themselves appear, so you case completely isses what is being argued here

      Regardless of if that is true or not, it is not the case in JJBA. According to Emporio, electricity won't pass deep enough into you to damage your organs due to the body's natural resistance to electricity, but salt water lets it reach deeper. However, Ermes was not covered with Salt water, but McQueen was, therefore it cannot be the just the attack. 

      Yeah, what do you want scans for specifically? i can provide the scans of Emporio explaining the electric shit and of Ermes not noticing the wounds appearing on her, proving that it wasn't just her being slashed. 

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    • Can you guys just make a new revision thread for this? We kinda want to finish up with the matches first. One thing at a time so we can at least do this now

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    • It was already agreed I believe to remove them. regardless to how HTH works, his fights need to be nuked cause he simply can’t win against these people he is put up against. Fresh start

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    • Just make sure the ones without a massive AP difference stay

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    • @Dargoo

      I remember you said you were willing to change the page to better reflect the rules, would you mind getting on that? It should specificy that something doesn't need to be a loss to he a stomp

      Also, let's be real for a second. Stomp is means curbstomp which implies that one side is being destroyed, not a stalemate or anything like that, so get it changed. 

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    • I think like 3 of them aren’t actual physical stomps. However one of those is a range stomp. (Ethan) iirc. But ones like Doppelgänger should be fine

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    • Reynardine, Doppelgängers, and Ditto Are the only fine ones in the Inconclusives, the Losses is already updated. And Gotta Sweep is fine for the wins. Other than that. The rest have to be yeeted to due range stomp, and AP stomp. As for removing them will later be decided on another thread if this HTH bypassing durability thing is legit or not.

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    • The meme is dead!!!!!!! Finallly!!!!!!!!!!

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    • Nah, hes still a meme, it's just the matches that are gone. Doesn't mean he isn't the crowned King of Inconclusives

      But now this brings up and important point. Who wants to take a look at Ness's and 682's match list, as they have many Inconclusives in the exact same vein

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    • Ness's and 682's incons (and its reasons) are much different than McQueen's

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    • Yea. The problem here is that he literally can’t win no matter how you swing it

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    • Oblivion Of The Endless wrote:
      Ness's and 682's incons (and its reasons) are much different than McQueen's

      Which are? at least in my experience, the 682 matches are often that neither character can kill or put down the other, so neither side can win, just like McQueen

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    • Oblivion Of The Endless wrote:
      Ness's and 682's incons (and its reasons) are much different than McQueen's

      I'm actually considering killing 682 (at least the match with D), BUT Ness and Yogiri should stay as those are more desicive

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    • Well, we have 1 more thing before we are finished here. A note:

      Note: Please do not make versus matches with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power. This is because both characters lack any way to win at all and is a mismatch as well as spite. Any match which fits this description will be closed. Exceptions can be made if the character has comparable or lower durability than McQueen, in which the match is fair and allowed

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    • That looks good to me

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    • What about characters who have less durability than Mcqueen, yet higher AP to the point they still one shot? Per se, Bubble.

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    • Certain characters can have acceptations like Bubble. They just need a realistic win condition. Since bubble can easily die with a poke, it means McQueen can one shot as well, which gives him a plausible win condition.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Well, we have 1 more thing before we are finished here. A note:

      Note: Please do not make versus matches with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power. This is because both characters lack any way to win at all and is a mismatch as well as spite. Any match which fits this description will be closed. Exceptions can be made if the character has comparable or lower durability than McQueen, in which the match is fair and allowed

      I need staff approval, and reworded the note a bit

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    • Don't we have enough staff members who agree with the removals?

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Don't we have enough staff members who agree with the removals?

      They already got removed, all we need to do is your input on the note above??

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    • Is a note really required though? And that verbose?

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    • Ah yeah, not sure if that note is needed.

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    • AKM sama wrote:
      Is a note really required though? And that verbose?

      1. What's a verbose

      2. Just to remind users due to his past spam and to make sure this stops

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    • Verbose means to be heavily and extravagantly worded. Which that note really isn't. I'm perfectly fine with the note.

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    • So, I can add it to his page???

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    • Sure thing, I guess.

      Welp, soon, Bubbles fight will be made soon for redemption

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    • Will add to his page

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    • Added. This can be closed

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    • The Wright Way wrote:
      Verbose means to be heavily and extravagantly worded. Which that note really isn't. I'm perfectly fine with the note.

      >Please do not make versus matches with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power. This is because both characters lack any way to win at all and is a mismatch as well as spite 

      No, that's kinda exactly verbose. It's taking a general idea and treating it like it absolutely must be the case for every character above or below him in physical stats. That isn't true. While it's true for the most part cases do exist where McQueen could beat characters above him in tier or he could lose to characters below him in tier. The note outright ignores the possibility of such matches possibly existing and sets a hard rule. It should be case by case even if 99% of those cases aren't ok. 

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Well, we have 1 more thing before we are finished here. A note:

      Note: Please do not make versus matches with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power. This is because both characters lack any way to win at all and is a mismatch as well as spite. Any match which fits this description will be closed. Exceptions can be made if the character has comparable or lower durability than McQueen, in which the match is fair and allowed

      why's it so long?

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    • also, "fair" is the wrong word, as they are fair, they are just stomps anyway, but I'm still waiting on that stomp page description to be changed

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    • Chariot190 wrote:
      The Wright Way wrote:
      Verbose means to be heavily and extravagantly worded. Which that note really isn't. I'm perfectly fine with the note.
      >Please do not make versus matches with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power. This is because both characters lack any way to win at all and is a mismatch as well as spite 

      No, that's kinda exactly verbose. It's taking a general idea and treating it like it absolutely must be the case for every character above or below him in physical stats. That isn't true. While it's true for the most part cases do exist where McQueen could beat characters above him in tier or he could lose to characters below him in tier. The note outright ignores the possibility of such matches possibly existing and sets a hard rule. It should be case by case even if 99% of those cases aren't ok. 

      It literally says exceptions are for characters with comparable or lower durability

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    • Reread what I said again. 

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    • So have you reached a conclusion to be applied here, and if so, should there be a footnote rule in Thunder's profile page? I think that it seems best, given that this situation will just be repeated otherwise.

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    • We have reached a conclusion and applied it. The only thing we were discussing is if the note should be left, which seems agreed upon.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      So have you reached a conclusion to be applied here, and if so, should there be a footnote rule in Thunder's profile page? I thik that it seems best, given that this situation will just be repeated otherwise.

      There is also the issue on the clarity of the stomp page as well

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    • Clarity on the stomp page is separate to this issue and requires its own thread. It should not be discussed here

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    • Well this thread is where the issue was raised, and the case where it is the most relevant. it's not worth leaving all the evidence out of the new thread. The changes on this page are contingent on a side not needing to lose for it to be a stomp, which is the issue with the page at the moment

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    • If this is a proven with Stomp threads in general. That means it belongs in that discussion. Not this one. This isn’t covers McQueen. Stomp threads are a much bigger issue and should have its own threads linked to those topics so staff can see it

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    • Please do not make versus threads with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power as they are mismatches.

      That's enough imo.

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    • I’m fine with that. Just need the point to get across

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    • AKM sama wrote: Please do not make versus threads with Thunder McQueen going against a character tiers above him in durability and power as they are mismatches.

      That's enough imo.

      That seems fine to me as well.

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    • Buttersamuri wrote:
      If this is a proven with Stomp threads in general. That means it belongs in that discussion. Not this one. This isn’t covers McQueen. Stomp threads are a much bigger issue and should have its own threads linked to those topics so staff can see it

      I mean, the points made in this thread is that it is already the case, so it just needs to be changed if that is true. Is it even worth making another thread in sacrifice of the context? 

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    • If you feel it’s a big enough issue, then you can make the thread discussing it. But until then; these matches simply fall under stomp threads.

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    • Have the matches been removed and the note been added? In which case I can close this thread.

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    • Yes. Both have been done

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    • K. I'll close.

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