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  • Ikki starts with material form Intetsu and Amps restricted.

    Speed Equalized.

    Yujiro:

    Ikki:7

    Incon:

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    • Fight Starts

      One second later, Ikki passes out

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    • Popcorn gif
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    • Should I start Ikki not in 7-C?

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    • Still didn't buy any popcorn. Dang.

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    • Bruh moment

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    • Fixed it.

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    • btw, isn't this fight mostly going to be Earl vs Earl, if anything?

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    • Anyway let's get this shit on a roll.

      AP: Yuji 1 shots, but not a problem with an opponent like Ikki.

      Speed: Equal

      Skill: Overall Ikki, but has to be debated technique by technique.

      So Baki guys, let's get going. Do your worst.

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    • So

      Can Ikki one shot with phantom form

      Big question

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    • I don't even want to argue that.

      @SoulOfCinder

      Put in the OP "ikki starts with material form intetsu".

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    • I'm very confused, what is Phantom Form? I keep hearing different things on how it works.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I'm very confused, what is Phantom Form? I keep hearing different things on how it works.

      Simple explanation: It's the 2nd most inconsistent thing in Rakudai. Right next to the scaling.

      It's just a form of his sword, which doesn't deal damage. But at first it was described as stamina drain, later on it says "people feel the pain", some volumes later it says it works by "wrong impression". So to save brain cells i don't wanna argue it at all. 

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    • Ok so since this is material form.

      Baki boys get to the arguments.

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    • Oh godj oh fugg it's happening 



      Alright, let's start with the important stuff. Yujiro's equal to Ikki in CQC skill, Yujiro is a master at every martial art that exists (or that existed). His main abilities include attack reflection via Aikido, damage reduction with Xiao Lee, 0.5s Unconscious works under speed equalized, information analysis can instantly detect any physical weakness or traits, can one-shot Ikki via lots of durability negation moves. Has insane pain resistance and an even crazier stamina. Power Mimicry allows for him to copy any ability based on skill, mainly martial arts. Analytical Prediction allows for him to know every move Ikki is about to do.

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    • I also forgot to tell about his many amps. Reaction speed, stamina, durability, speed in general, AP. He has amps for them all.

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    • KG has just about covered everything. Now Ikki's retaliation?

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    • Doesn't Yujiro have the AP to just break Ikki's device/sword? ala Yujiro vs Motobe? (I could be wrong as I believe Devices are much stronger then the users durability)

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    • He does, but I don't think Ikki would let that happen with his level of skill

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    • I might be way off here rn... but I can't rly remember a device breaking... like... ever.

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    • RatherClueless wrote:
      I might be way off here rn... but I can't rly remember a device breaking... like... ever.

      Would you happen to know if it has some kind of special property to prevent a break?

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    • Its not made up of metal or anything like that, but the users soul. So that's a thing.

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    • Devices can break, but only with attacks far more powerful than the user, like when Touka's Device was broken by Ikki using Ittou Rasetsu, but Ikki has the skill to stop 7-B attacks by doing things like redirecting the energy or something like that.

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    • >Toukas device broke

      >Instantly rewatching

      Welp, I guess that rly did happen. However, then I am just gonna ask, do u know wether a device disperses after someone falls unconscious or does it stay materialized untill that person decides to disperse it?

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    • It stays materialized, Ikki was still capable of using it after his Device broke.

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    • Here we go again. What a pain, can somebody contact a staff member?

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    • I AM HERE

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    • theres a joke pretaining to the pic and your comment but im not saying it out loud.

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    • Bob8999 wrote:
      theres a joke pretaining to the pic and your comment but im not saying it out loud.

      Yeah, i shortly noticed it and edited the comment. It wasn't intended. I'm sorry.

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    • he came back for a second time!? kek

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    • no need to apologies, things happen.

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    • I got some severe problems with what has been said but i'll argue as soon as i eat breakfast.

      I need nutrients

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    • Ok time to get started

      @KG

      >Yujiro's equal to ikki in CQC skill

      No...just no. We can debate, you won't win though. Don't say i didn't warn you if you start the debate

      >Is a master of all martal arts

      I've debunked this countless times. Not all martial arts are combat applicable, and tons of them are useless. He mostly uses them to flex on assholes. There are only a handful which are good enough in combat.

      >Attack reflection

      It's not sth Yujiro ever uses, and even then it can be bypassed rather easily. 

      >Damage reduction

      It's effectiveness is severely reduced when it's something like Ikki ignoring friction and slashing effects (not saying it won't work at all, but it works much less effectively against sharp weapons as it does against punches which cause a lot more push).

      >0.5sec unconscious

      I explained it even in the Baki thread. Ikki can tap into his unconsciousness has senses which will tell him beforehand about this, and has even beat a guy who could make 4 actions before Ikki could make 1. Yujiro's not gonna be able to do much.

      >1 shot ikki

      Yes true, he also has the ap advantage, but that's IF he lands a clean hit and Ikki doesn't tech it.

      >Pain resistance and stamina

      Not a factor as ikki's using material form intetsu.

      >Power mimicry

      No, Yujiro has never copied shit like ignoring friction and acceleration, actually hiding from someone's mind etc. He can copy a bunch, but it's gonna be hard. Especially since the best Yujiro has shown is copying 1 technique at a time. Which as stated in rakudai is significantly inferior to copying a style.

      >Analytical Prediction

      Hardly. Ikki has fooled mind reading before ​​​​​​

      >Reaction speed amp

      Ikki has that too, an in character move, 10x reaction speed, makes him perceive shit in slow motion.



      About breaking a device, there are 2 conditions. 1. You need to have more magic than the user. 2. A ton of AP.

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    • I'll attend all the points by numbering them because i'm on my phone and it would be a pain to copy+paste everything you said 



      1. Yes. Why would Ikki be more skilled? 



      2. Well, if you think so, the same could be said about Ikki. Anyways, the martial arts of the Bakiverse aren't like real life martial arts, even arts that would normally be useless irl (Aikido) can give you good abilities there (attack reflection). Anyways, trust me, all martial arts of the Bakiverse have something good to them, none of them are useless.



      3. He uses it if he feels like he needs to.



      4. It has been implied to work against blades, Musashi only was able to beat through Retsu's Xiao-Lee because it was incomplete and because they had a huge AP gap. Under normal conditions, Xiao-Lee lets you no diff attacks millions of times stronger than you if you've mastered it. 



      5. It's best to touch on this subject when i get home (tomorrow)



      6. Yeah, neither does Yujiro



      7. Yeah, they're still important tho



      8. Yujiro copied a martial art that requires more than a century of training to master in a glance. In order to even start to utilize this martial art, you have to go through rigorous training in order to remove your natural instincts of fear and rigidness, making your body completly limp like a feather even against someone who can one-shot you. God, he probably mastered Udonde by reading about it in a book since it's an extinct martial art. He can copy techniques that come from skill just like he can copy any martial art.



      9. I do agree Ikki's AP is better thanks to the fact it's via magic, but still, at this point they're almost the same 

      10. Yujiro's also a 10x amp. But still there are many others.

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    • I'll let you get home and finish your post before answering.

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    • Thanks.

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      1. Yes. Why would Ikki be more skilled? 

      "And Here We Go" - Joker

      "And Here We Go" - Joker

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    • SpookyShadow wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:

      1. Yes. Why would Ikki be more skilled?

      Blasphemy
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    • OwO

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    • Anyway @KG if you got nothing to add I'll answer after new year's.... hopefully..... assuming im not trippin balls by then.

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    • I'm probably forgetting a bunch of stuff but these are his main abilities

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    • Oh ok cya when I'm drunk.

      Happy New Year guys

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    • Happy new year everyone

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    • Happy New Year

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    • Happy New Years all!

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    • Happy New Year to all skill fans

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    • Btw, Earl will already be busy responding to KG when he gets back, but I had I thought I'm still kinda formulating that I'd like to get the framework out

      So Yujiro should have better pinch strength then Sikorsky, as well as better grip strength than both Hanayama and Nomi, so, since he's out skilled so long as Ikki has a sword, but probably not by much (or he's possibly more skilled, that's for Earl and KG to debate), wouldn't the smartest move be to pull a Retsu v Musashi and use a combination of Sikorsky pinch, Hanayama/Nomi grip, and Chiharuism/Chiharu style to let Ikki's blade cut his hand/arm/fingers or anywhere else only to tense his muscles, not allowing Ikki to pull his blade out, effectively making him unable to keep up with Yujiro in skill anymore?

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    • While ouma did try to use that move it didn't do much. And ikki can already ignore friction why would it work?

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    • I mean, cutting stuff with a leaf is still below cutting stuff with an actual sword mainly because of range so making Ikki swordless is still a great advantage

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      While ouma did try to use that move it didn't do much. And ikki can already ignore friction why would it work?

      As I understand it, he doesn't ignore friction, he just as an amazing skill feat that allowed him to greatly mitigate friction. Would he be able to escape something of Yujiro's magnitude? On the one hand, he's got his sword this time as opposed to a piece of paper, but on the other hand, Yujiro's muscles aren't exactly just a piece of steel either.

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    • It's actually supposed to ignore "hitting the atmosphere" so basically cause no loss in energy. And the piece of paper is a downgrade of his sword, not upgrade. He was training using something as fragile as paper to cut metal. 

      Worst case scenario Ikki's sword gets stuck, so Ikki has to stat amp to cut through him. 

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    • @KG

      1. Well we've already argued that and Yujiro was tied with Fugil who got significantly outdone by Ikki in skill. But i am down to argue again if ya want. Bring me your best Yujiro feats.

      2. Yes, but it's not good to treat "he knows them" as a skill feat. There are tons of useless ones. You can argue the techniques for each though.

      3. It is not that good, just give him something he can't redirect as easily and it's done.

      4. Yes but that implication wasn't on someone of Ikki's level. It isn't something he'll be able to use more than once (at most).

      5. Ok...?

      6 and 7....ok.... not really "arguments" so i'll skip these.

      8. Again no. He's not copying the ability to ignore acceleration and friction. Hide from the human mind etc. Learning what plebs took a century to master doesn't somehow make it a good feat when you're dealing with almost hax with skill.

      9. It's not better cus it's via magic, i just think it's higher AP with rasetsu. 

      10. Ikki has an in character 10x amp to his perception speed. But when did Yujiro gain a 10x amp. The best he has is Demon Back which is like 3-4x or so.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It's actually supposed to ignore "hitting the atmosphere" so basically cause no loss in energy. And the piece of paper is a downgrade of his sword, not upgrade. He was training using something as fragile as paper to cut metal. 

      Worst case scenario Ikki's sword gets stuck, so Ikki has to stat amp to cut through him. 

      I'm not sure if this helps any, but Yujiro's grip far exceeds 100,000 atmospheres by scaling to Nomi

      Im a little reluctant to believe that it will actually be that simple, considering the level of skill at play and that one moment of being stuck

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    • I mean even then Ikki has much higher lifting strength. (even though his lifting strength stat on the profile is a bit fudged up)

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    • I'll be in my computer and ready to argue in about 5 hours.

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    • KG, I summon you to this battle once more ovo

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      KG, I summon you to this battle once more ovo

      LOL!

      KG I choose you!

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    • Basically, I just noticed it's been 5 hours and I'm interested to hear what he's got

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    • Gotta say i agree with Earl here.

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    • Alright, i think i underrated the time it would have gotten for me to come back

      Still, it's 10PM now, i'd prefer to argue tomorrow, it's better 

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    • I'd like to present an argument

      First, what would hypnosis do to Ikki? I understand that he has many abilities that can mitigate or even outright negate hypnosis, but if it was a hypnosis that affected all 5 senses, would there be any sense that would be affected in any way? Any sense that either can't fully negate hypnosis or doesn't have any defense against it?

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    • Hypnosis? Well assuming it would be able to trick his senses at all. It would just be a weaker version of Shizuya Kirihara, who is imperceivable by all 5 senses.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Hypnosis? Well assuming it would be able to trick his senses at all. It would just be a weaker version of Shizuya Kirihara, who is imperceivable by all 5 senses.

      To clarify, all this hypnosis does is make Ikki think he's fighting and winning against Yujiro, when in all actuality he's not fighting Yujiro at all

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    • Well considering the degree of mind hax ikki has to deal with all the time I doubt that would do anything.

      But how does it work?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @KG

      1. Well we've already argued that and Yujiro was tied with Fugil who got significantly outdone by Ikki in skill. But i am down to argue again if ya want. Bring me your best Yujiro feats.

      2. Yes, but it's not good to treat "he knows them" as a skill feat. There are tons of useless ones. You can argue the techniques for each though.

      3. It is not that good, just give him something he can't redirect as easily and it's done.

      4. Yes but that implication wasn't on someone of Ikki's level. It isn't something he'll be able to use more than once (at most).

      5. Ok...?

      6 and 7....ok.... not really "arguments" so i'll skip these.

      8. Again no. He's not copying the ability to ignore acceleration and friction. Hide from the human mind etc. Learning what plebs took a century to master doesn't somehow make it a good feat when you're dealing with almost hax with skill.

      9. It's not better cus it's via magic, i just think it's higher AP with rasetsu. 

      10. Ikki has an in character 10x amp to his perception speed. But when did Yujiro gain a 10x amp. The best he has is Demon Back which is like 3-4x or so.

      1. That was arguing only about "pure skill". Yes, i want to argue again, as in i think Yujiro is just as skilled as Ikki.

      2. First, he doesn't simply "know them". He mastered every single one, possibly even all the ones that are extinct on modern society. Second, as i said, martial arts in the bakiverse aren't like real life martial arts. Aikido is considered one of the worse martial arts for actual fighting irl, yet on the bakiverse it's waaaaaaaaaaay more useful than its real-life counterpart. So far, we have no example of a thing such as an "useless martial art" in the Bakiverse. 

      3.  Wdym? Aikido isn't limited to punches or kickes because its workings happen through Chi Manipulation. It could work on swords and stuff like that. And Yujiro's should be even superior to Shibukawa's, who is a master at Aikido in particular. It allows him, who is 9-A, to severely hurt people who are 7-C. 

      4.  What Ikki has to counter this technique? You can't just say "Ikki is so skilled he can ignore it" without actually showing how he would possibly do it.

      5.  I'll touch on this subject tomorrow (yeah i hate it this much, it's just like Ikki's phantom blade, the author loves to keep changing what it is)

      6 and 7 weren't meant to be arguments

      8. He instantly copied stuff harder than that, with a glance. It's not Martial Art Mimicry, it's Power Mimicry (although it's both). And by the love of god, let's not call Retsu Kaioh and specially Kaku Kaioh "plebs". While ofc both Yujiro and Ikki are basically in another dimension when it comes to skill, both Retsu and Kaku are amongst the most skilled martial artists of the verse and are considered martial art geniuses, they're literally gifted people who do nothing but increase their skills all day for the rest of their lifes. By instance, they're comparable in skill and intelligence to the likes of Doppo Orochi, who is a 10th Dan in Karate and regarded as "The God of War" and "The Sun of Karate". 

      9. Isn't Rasetsu the 1s transformation that makes you loose all your senses? Or am i mixing something up?

      10. Sangan. A amp he got from Orochi, it amps your reaction speed tenfold and also amps your field of view a good lot. Then there are endorphins, near-death amp, cockroach tackle, mach punch, etc etc

      ​​​​

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    • 1. Sure we can leave this for last.

      2. Yes but as I said you don't just assume they're all useful. It's a case by case basis, the ones who are have their own techniques. Those are more important factors.

      3. Biting is something it can't reflect. And same for sword attacks. Not to mention ikki has energy reflection to even higher levels.

      4. That wouldn't work against ikki's precog and analysis. A thrust to the centre of gravity will bypass xiao lee.

      8. What harder stuff has he copied exactly? Also even if yujiro copies most of ikki's stuff it'll be useless, without a sword he can't use them.

      9. It is, where you not talking about that?

      10. Sagan isn't 10x if i recall correctly. It's less than demon back which is 3 times. Gonna need a scan for Sagan's stat amp.

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    • 1. Ok

      2. Alright, i do agree it's a case by case basis. But then i think you also agree that the number of useless martial arts in the Bakiverse are minimum (if there are any).

      3. Well yeah, but on the manga it's said that Bite produces "zero energy" and that's why it can't be reflected. While i personally don't think that makes sense, it's obvious the author didn't forget Aiki was a chi-based thing. 

      4. Why would a thrust to the centre of gravity bypass Xiao Lee? 

      8. Mastered every single martial art that exists with a glance, including ones that need more than a century of training to fully master. Mastered Udonde god knows how, since it's an extinct martial art, probably by reading about it in a book or something like that. 

      9. I think AP is pretty useless if you can't hear, feel, see, or anything at all. 

      10. It's only an amp for reaction speed, unlike Demon Back that is a amp for speed, AP, durability, and whatnot. It boosts Orochi from baseline Supersonic to Hypersonic+ iirc so that's where the 10x comes from. Btw Orochi might be downgraded in speed so it could be an even greater amp than what we currently think it is.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Well considering the degree of mind hax ikki has to deal with all the time I doubt that would do anything.

      But how does it work?

      I'll have to go back and watch, but I think it has something to do with hearing the opponent clap their hands (I'll get the specifics to you in a bit)

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    • 2. You didn't get my point. Im not saying "there are useless martial arts in baki". Im saying "don't assume all martial arts are useful". So if you want to use the "masters all martial arts", something to back up how hard and effective each of them are.

      3. It makes perfect sense tbh. He reflects attacks by (let's say "pushing") in a way to make them take it back. You cannot reflect a grab, a bite etc. The reason why ikki can easily bypass it as it is just a weaker version of what he does with Madoka.

      4. Because it would be impossible to rotate to mitigate the damage and being relax would not do anything as a sword would pierce through effortlessly. A sword does not rely on impact, meaning no matter how relax you are, it'll pierce.

      8. That's stuff ikki does as well. Doesn't equate to copying any of the stuff i mentioned.

      9. When you're ikki, it doesn't matter, 1 sword slice will land no matter what.

      10. I believe i've said above but we do not apply multipliers based on scaling. Only stated multipliers.

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    • 2. Well, cannonically the martial arts are so strong some of them can make 10-C and High 8-C folks fight Yujiro so yeah, they're pretty good to their purposes (the weak overcoming the strong). To master Xiao Lee, by instance, you need more than a century of hard training in order to remove all your natural instincts. Orochi Doppo has done doozens of moves, more than a thousand of times every day for the last 50 years. He is considered a true master of Karate in the verse, and Yujiro is above him. 

      3. Well yeah, physically speaking it makes sense, but bites do produce energy. Anyways, Ikki having Attack Reflection doesn't mean he can counter it if someone else uses it.

      4. As i've said before, swords don't work against Xiao Lee just the same. 

      8. Yeah, i know he does, but that doesn't come to the case. These martial arts aren't like real-life martial arts, inside them there are abilities gained through skill, similar in essence to the ones Ikki has. And Yujiro masters them effortlessly. 

      9. I'm sorry? That doesn't make sense. You can't make a rational attack while you have the senses of a dead body, unless you start the attack and go Rasetsu in the middle of it. 

      10. Welp, then this is an amp that, out of his many other amps, makes you go from being blitzed to blitzing, in reaction speed.

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    • 2. Those are literally only 2 moves in all of martial arts baki has. Those are the only 2 that allow fighting up to such a level. And Shibuki could never actually fight Yujiro. The rest isn't really anything all that impressive. 

      3. They produce energy but you can't reflect it, same as how you can't reflect a grab. Producing energy doesn't = reflectable. If someone like Jack could abuse it, Ikki sure as hell can.

      4. Yujiro was punched in his centre of gravity while using Xiao Lee, he was sent flying. If it were a sword it would have pierced right through. 

      8. That's what im saying dude they're both through skill. Yujiro has never copied anything on a similar level to "ignorning friction" or hiding from the mind of the opponent. Him having copied skill based abilities before doesn't mean he can copy any skill based abilties. It's fallacious.

      9. Ikki does do that, he fouses on the attack then starts Rasetsu, but can addapt to external factors mid way (like when he used Stella's strike to boost his own AP even though she attacked mid Ittou Rasetsu). He has a dozen other senses like danger, awareness etc.

      10. Similar Ikki's reaction amp makes him perceive stuff in slow motion. Besides Yujiro has never used Sangan iirc, completely out of character.

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    • I see no proof that Xiao Lee would work against a sword and slashing weapons. All it does is make the body go limp to avoid taking damage against blunt weapons ( such as a punch. ) I'm sorry but you'll need actual scans of it protecting against blades and such whenever it's only worked against punches.

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    • I do just want to say, if ya go by scaling.

      Baki has a lightjab faster than light. https://i.imgur.com/ygTsXNi.jpg seen here. The writer even says "It is faster then light"

      Yujiro is just better Baki at the end of the day.

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    • That's not really an issue as ikki blitzes sol ppl casually

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    • I just wrote a big wall of text, then sent it, and it's not showing, at least for me. Can you guys see it?

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    • Oof.

      Big F for our fallen soldier

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    • F



      Now i'll have to re-write it later, will be off for some hours

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    • If your message gets eaten, just do a Crtl + Z and it comes back

      But if you refresh the page then its too late

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    • Best I could gather about the Hypnosis

      The ability to hypnotize opponents by simply clapping your hands together. Afterwards, the victim's mind is trapped in a vivid hallucination where they imagine the fight going completely in their favor. In reality, they're just attacking empty air, leaving them completely vulnerable to any oncoming attacks.

      However, there is a major weakness in this technique, as it can be rendered ineffective if the victim believes that there is no way the fight should be that easy.

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    • Wait that was in the Baki 2018. Yeah i remember, it's not that easy though. Iirc that only worked for people who were deluded on winning. You can't put anyone in that and even then, Ikki's dozen other senses will take care of it even assuming it would put him in the illusion.

      Rechecked: Yeah it only works with deluded opponents. Because the opponent specifically needs to "want his opponent to be a lot weaker than Dorian actually is". And has Yujiro ever demonstrated this?

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    • Not worth arguing, Orochi could break free from that technique, let alone Ikki

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      2. Those are literally only 2 moves in all of martial arts baki has. Those are the only 2 that allow fighting up to such a level. And Shibuki could never actually fight Yujiro. The rest isn't really anything all that impressive. 

      3. They produce energy but you can't reflect it, same as how you can't reflect a grab. Producing energy doesn't = reflectable. If someone like Jack could abuse it, Ikki sure as hell can.

      4. Yujiro was punched in his centre of gravity while using Xiao Lee, he was sent flying. If it were a sword it would have pierced right through. 

      8. That's what im saying dude they're both through skill. Yujiro has never copied anything on a similar level to "ignorning friction" or hiding from the mind of the opponent. Him having copied skill based abilities before doesn't mean he can copy any skill based abilties. It's fallacious.

      9. Ikki does do that, he fouses on the attack then starts Rasetsu, but can addapt to external factors mid way (like when he used Stella's strike to boost his own AP even though she attacked mid Ittou Rasetsu). He has a dozen other senses like danger, awareness etc.

      10. Similar Ikki's reaction amp makes him perceive stuff in slow motion. Besides Yujiro has never used Sangan iirc, completely out of character.

      2. Yeah, they're examples of how the martial arts of the Bakiverse are far from useless. Like, why would a martial art even exist if it wasn't at least somewhat combat applicable? And as i said, the martial arts of the Bakiverse are nowhere like real life martial arts. Trust me when i say none of them are any useless. 


      ​​​​​​3. In the case of Aiki, it should because its AR works based on energy. It's explictly said that the bite is the perfect counter for Aiki because it produces "zero energy", what i think both we can agree isn't true. But yeah, that doesn't matter, the point is, biting is very effective against Aiki. The thing is, it's very ooc for Ikki to bite, while it's one of Jack's signature moves. And even then, biting is basically suicide against someone who can one-shot you, one of Ikki's biggest advantages here is his superior range, going for a bite makes him an easy target. 

      4. That had nothing to do with center of gravity, otherwise it would've been mentioned. He was sent flying but wasn't damaged at all because he used Xiao-Lee, and Xiao-Lee works against swords just as it does for blunt attacks.

      8. Ikki's techniques are gained through body control and skill, things Yujiro already has shown to be able to master in the same degree as Ikki's (at least the skill part, i think Ikki's body control is superior). 

      9. Yeah but it's implicit that he lost all his senses and not only the ones mentioned.

      10. He hasn't because he doesn't need to. He already stomps everyone in his verse, but as soon as he identifies Ikki as a worthy opponent he'd be ready to bring the big guns.

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    • Uno11only wrote:
      I do just want to say, if ya go by scaling.

      Baki has a lightjab faster than light. https://i.imgur.com/ygTsXNi.jpg seen here. The writer even says "It is faster then light"

      Yujiro is just better Baki at the end of the day.

      That was deemed as a hyperbole so we don't use that. Anyways, Speed is equalized and Yujiro already has a bunch of other moves that amp speed and AP (what is useless here since he one-shots anyways).

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I see no proof that Xiao Lee would work against a sword and slashing weapons. All it does is make the body go limp to avoid taking damage against blunt weapons ( such as a punch. ) I'm sorry but you'll need actual scans of it protecting against blades and such whenever it's only worked against punches.

      Xiao Lee was never once stated to work only against blunt attacks. Even Musashi, who is waaaaaaaay stronger than Retsu (Retsu only having an incomplete Xiao Lee, while Yujiro has mastered it) and the best swordsman of the verse only partially broke through Retsu's Xiao Lee. It was stated that if Retsu didn't have Xiao Lee every single blade sword would have made clean slices through him, while Retsu managed to survive lots of them. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Wait that was in the Baki 2018. Yeah i remember, it's not that easy though. Iirc that only worked for people who were deluded on winning. You can't put anyone in that and even then, Ikki's dozen other senses will take care of it even assuming it would put him in the illusion.

      Rechecked: Yeah it only works with deluded opponents. Because the opponent specifically needs to "want his opponent to be a lot weaker than Dorian actually is". And has Yujiro ever demonstrated this?

      Yujiro hasn't, but it's a similar situation to how he's granted the pinch strength, Apnea Rush, Void Style of the inmates: it's extremely likely with his knowledge of martial arts, anatomy, and mastery of body control, Yujiro would know how to do it, possibly better than Dorian

      Things like extrasensory perception, instinctive reaction, analytical predictions also counter it, but it wouldn't impede, distract, or even work on Ikki at all? If not, guess it's back to the drawing board

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Not worth arguing, Orochi could break free from that technique, let alone Ikki

      Actually, remember we all agreed Doppo shouldn't have mind manipulation resistance awhile ago? Retsu and Katsumi stayed that he was still under the affects of the hypnosis, but he'd already figured out all of Dorian's moves, so the real Dorian and the imaginary Dorian we're doing the same things, hence why Amlad wants to give Doppo Analytical prediction

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    • Oh, i see. But still the same would happen to Ikki

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Oh, i see. But still the same would happen to Ikki

      That's what I figured (and hoped) would happen. Ikki would be completely fine and able to ignore it, but it would at least give Yujiro until Yujiro tried to hit Ikki to observe and analyze his movements. Of course when Yujiro would go to attack, Ikki's vision of Yujiro and actual Yujiro would align, but at least that gives Yujiro's observational abilities a chance to get all of Ikki's info from the start of their re-engagement (assuming Yujiro would only resort to this ability after having difficulty with Ikki).

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    • 2. Yes, back to my point say what are useful not all are useful because some are. It's fallacious reasoning. Also no, marital arts don't do that, those 2 in particular do. I don't say "swordmasters in rakudai can do what ikki can" because ikki specifically can, not all. So that's again fallacious.

      3. Not really, the resultant is 0. Basically anything that isn't a blunt attack can't be reflected. No, not swords either.

      4. Logic dictates that. Every attack that wasn't in the centre of gravity didn't send him flying, only that. Not everything has to be stated, when not stated logic takes over.

      8. Exactly my point, show me yujiro mastering anything even close to the 2 techniques I told you. Stop dodging the question, i just ask for proof of having copied similar techniques, without such proof yujiro can't be assumed to copy them.

      9. When? Not that it matters he can still adapt to his surroundings in that form by feats, so it's not like it matters much how. He's also 200x faster so yujiro can't react to it either way.

      10. He did fight for a long time against baki and musashi. He'll he was pushed back and even scared for a sec against kaku. He has also decided to use demon back in every scenario. So he chose his best amp as opposed to weaker amps because...?

      An incomplete xiao Lee being overpowered by swords doesn't somehow mean that a complete one will be immune to it.

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    • @Baki

      Ikki fight unconscious like it's normal, that ain't deterring him

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @Baki

      Ikki fight unconscious like it's normal, that ain't deterring him

      Oh no, he's still conscious, just hallucinating, but Yujiro won't be able to hit him, only watch and observe. As soon as he tries to hit Ikki, Ikki will have already analyzed his identity, so everything Yujiro does will be as Ikki imagines, so the hallucination Yujiro and the real one will be doing the exact same thing. Instinctive Reaction would provide him him a way to defend himself while hypnotized, by Ikki won't even need it with his Analytical prediction

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    • If he can fight without senses he won't be bothered by affecting the senses.

      Though as i said that requires the opponent to be deluded on the opponent's power. Ikki can notice that from a first glance.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      If he can fight without senses he won't be bothered by affecting the senses.

      Though as i said that requires the opponent to be deluded on the opponent's power. Ikki can notice that from a first glance.

      Ahh okay, didn't know that's what you meant by that

      If Ikki has any reason to want to win (I'm assuming he does, or he wouldn't fight until the first place), the effects would being, and as far as breaking out, all Ikki would know is that the hypnosis isn't real, he'd still have to deal with a fake Yujiro, but it's a moot point because of the first point

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      2. Yes, back to my point say what are useful not all are useful because some are. It's fallacious reasoning. Also no, marital arts don't do that, those 2 in particular do. I don't say "swordmasters in rakudai can do what ikki can" because ikki specifically can, not all. So that's again fallacious.

      3. Not really, the resultant is 0. Basically anything that isn't a blunt attack can't be reflected. No, not swords either.

      4. Logic dictates that. Every attack that wasn't in the centre of gravity didn't send him flying, only that. Not everything has to be stated, when not stated logic takes over.

      8. Exactly my point, show me yujiro mastering anything even close to the 2 techniques I told you. Stop dodging the question, i just ask for proof of having copied similar techniques, without such proof yujiro can't be assumed to copy them.

      9. When? Not that it matters he can still adapt to his surroundings in that form by feats, so it's not like it matters much how. He's also 200x faster so yujiro can't react to it either way.

      10. He did fight for a long time against baki and musashi. He'll he was pushed back and even scared for a sec against kaku. He has also decided to use demon back in every scenario. So he chose his best amp as opposed to weaker amps because...?

      An incomplete xiao Lee being overpowered by swords doesn't somehow mean that a complete one will be immune to it.

      2. No, it's fallacious to assume "a ton of them" are completly useless when none of them have shown to be so far. In fact, most martial arts of the Bakiverse give OP abilities such as attack reflection, durability negation, damage reduction, and all that stuff. The 2 martial artists i mentioned are just examples, but most (if not all) the martial arts of the verse are like that. And i don't get what the whole Ikki thing you just said has to do with anything i've said.

      3.  From the Baki wiki:

      " Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques. " 

      It's not a technique that resorts to physical contact. It works with Ki energy. It's said in the manga, with those words, that the bite in specific can't be reflected because it produces 0 energy. Interpret that as you will, but it doesn't change the fact this technique works with blades, grapples, and the like.

      4. No, he got sent flying because he used Xiao Lee. Getting sent flying is a consequence of using Xiao Lee, it's natural.

      8. No, in order to copy Ikki's techniques he doesn't need to have been shown copying these techniques in specific before. Let's look at the roots of these abilities: skill. Now, ofc it's not only skill, but also absurd levels of body control (turning your mind off) and swordmanship (ignoring friction, cutting steel with a piece of paper). Have the abilities Yujiro copied (by instance, Xiao Lee) shown to have absurd amounts of body control and swordmanship? The awnser for the first is yes, for the second it's no. So we get the awnser: Yujiro can copy the "turn your mind off' thing, but can't copy the "ignoring friction" thing. At least that's how i see it.

      9. " Vision, taste, hearing, touch, smell―right now, he didn't need any of them. In this instant, he didn't even need to breathe. ". It's implicit that he lost all his senses, not only the ones mentioned. God, he even lost breathing. Yujiro can still probably avoid getting hit by this 1s transformation thanks to AP, 6th sense, and sheer skill.

      10. You don't have to do anything other than look at his face to know he was totally in control of all these situations. Musashi could barely cut through his skin even while in base, completly curbstomped Kaku Kaioh once he activated Demon Back... etc etc.

      11. (Xiao Lee working or not against blades) It was stated that Retsu's incomplete Xiao Lee has greatly helping him, even if barely, survive Musashi's slashes. It was stated that, if Retsu didn't have some knowledge on Xiao Lee, Musashi would be doing clean slices through Retsu, while in reality it took a good effort to cut deep enough to actually render Retsu unable to fight. And in this scenario, Musashi was thousands of times stronger than Retsu's durability AND Retsu had an incomplete Xiao Lee. In the situation of this VS Match, however, Yujiro not only holds the durability advantage by default, he's also a master at Xiao Lee while Retsu's only incomplete. 

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    • I got another possible combo approach


      What if Yujiro tries Hand Pocket? And if that doesn't work, what about a Hand Pocket variant of Apnea Rush? A speed amped speed amping combo (Hand Pocket is the only move fast enough in Baki to outspeed the activation of 0.5 that we know of, and a normal Apnea Rush makes him capable of unleashing over a hundred punches under five seconds for 5 minutes straight, this allows him to 'melt' walls, metal and even human bones. So an unqualifiable but likely vastly larger amount of punches in under 5 seconds for 5 minutes straight. Can Ikki deal?

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    • Nah, i feel like Yujiro's 6th sense would make him have a safer approach.

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Nah, i feel like Yujiro's 6th sense would make him have a safer approach.

      Wouldn't that be pretty safe? The best defense is a good offense, right? With speed starting as equalized, unless Ikki amps as well, it's straight up impossible for Ikki to actually counter or escape, since the whole point of Apnea Rush is that it's continuous with no opening (hence why the only reason Hanayama escaped was by tanking a few punches and just smashed his face in while he was still punching)

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    • 2. Not really, burden of proof on you to prove all of them are good. I'm telling you to stick to the ones that have feats, but you really don't like that apparently. So yeah bring me proof of every single martial arts in existence being not only combat applicable, but in certain ways superior to every martial arts shown in Baki.

      3. Aiki doesn't work with grapplings. It's Shibukawa's skill that can deal with grappling, not Aiki.

      Aiki specifically requires physical contact.

      Aiki has never shown to work on swords.

      4. Wrong again. In that very fight, at no point was Kaku Kaioh blown away when hit with a punch that wasn't in the centre of gravity. He just kept rotating, idk where you got the "blown away is a result of Xiao Lee" and Xiao Lee in its very concept wouldn't work against thrust type of attacks. Xiao Lee is just relaxing your muscless, the more relax your muscles the easier the blade will slip through.

      8. Yeah that's better. So there are a bunch of techniques Yujiro can't copy. Those being Trackless Step, Edelweiss sword style, every other sword style (by virtue of being sword styles), Perfect Vision....basically he can't copy anything important.

      9. How is saying he lost all 5 senses implying "he lost even abstract senses like awareness and danger sense". And no Yujiro ain't dodging something 200x his speed, just no.

      10. He was actually scared of when he was about to take on Kaku's punch. And idk how "in control" somehow means "i will use my best ability, but not my other abilities". If he were in control he wouldn't need to use Demon Back and if he wasn't in control why didn't he add Sangan to Demon Back. No matter how you spin it, no Sangan.

      11. Durability doesn't matter, that's what Xiao Lee is for. And Yujiro's durability doesn't matter against a guy who can cut metal with paper. 

      @Baki

      I could go into details as why that would not be enough. By mentioning how people less skilled than ikki beat 10 people 10x faster effortlessly. But i will take the easy way out and say if we somehow assume Yujiro will use those at all, it would be a speed blitz, something that isn't allowed in speed equal if your opponent is faster, like ikki is. 

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    • Damn, a speed blitz... what if they are used separately? Again, Hand Pocket is fast enough to essentially outspeed 0.5 Seconds, and Apnea Rush by itself is a hundred punches in under 5 seconds for 5 minutes. Either of them have and merit in use?

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    • No matter what you say. If you're relying on yujiro being faster it's invalid because yujiro can never be faster than ikki.

      Even though as I said above ikki can deal with them rather easily.

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    • What? Why not? Being faster doesn't mean speed blitz automatically, and while I may be willing to overlooking Apnea Rush due to the 10 people 10x faster, Hand Pocket is high and low way beyond that. I'm not so sure Ikki can just simply dodge or block this

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    • It doesn't have to be a blitz. It's just illogical. Because you're abusing speed equal to create a scenario where "Yujiro is faster than Ikki". Which is plain wrong. This is the same reason why blitzing the faster character isn't allowed. Because we get a completely stupid scenario that shouldn't exist otherwise.

      And 10 x 10 feat was done by a girl who is way less skilled than Ikki, was done causally and without speed amps. And Hand Pocket being beyond 10 people at the same time with speed over 10x that of your own seems like massive headcannon. Will need proof for that.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It doesn't have to be a blitz. It's just illogical. Because you're abusing speed equal to create a scenario where "Yujiro is faster than Ikki". Which is plain wrong. This is the same reason why blitzing the faster character isn't allowed. Because we get a completely stupid scenario that shouldn't exist otherwise.

      And 10 x 10 feat was done by a girl who is way less skilled than Ikki, was done causally and without speed amps. And Hand Pocket being beyond 10 people at the same time with speed over 10x that of your own seems like massive headcannon. Will need proof for that.

      The only time the fight can't be added is if it's a speed blitz victory in the favor of the slower character. This would not be the case, Yujiro is just stat amping, which is allowed under speed equalized, to be faster than Ikki

      Okay, I will compile some stuff

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    • No...you're not allowed to "win via speed" against an otherwise faster opponent in speed equal.

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      • During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.
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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      *During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.

      Yes, victory not stomp

      Speed Amp are allowed unless it leads to a slower character winning via speed. 

      Example. In speed equal i can say "Ikki uses Rasetsu and blitzes Yujiro", but i can't say "Ikki uses rasetsu and blitzes Goku". Because Goku's speed is far beyond Rasetu's speed. 

      Speed Blitz isn't a stomp in every case, it's a stomp in most cases. Just cus it says "speed blitz" doesn't mean it's reffering to stomp matches. From Speed Blitz' page:

      On top of resulting in a stomp/spite match more often then not.

      A stomp can be created from a speed blitz, speed blitz itself doesn't mean stomp though.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      *During a match where speed is equalized, speed amplification techniques are allowed, unless they lead to a victory via Speed Blitz in favor of the slower character.
      Yes, victory not stomp

      Speed Amp are allowed unless it leads to a slower character winning via speed. 

      Example. In speed equal i can say "Ikki uses Rasetsu and blitzes Yujiro", but i can't say "Ikki uses rasetsu and blitzes Goku". Because Goku's speed is far beyond Rasetu's speed. 

      Speed Blitz isn't a stomp in every case, it's a stomp in most cases. Just cus it says "speed blitz" doesn't mean it's reffering to stomp matches. From Speed Blitz' page:

      On top of resulting in a stomp/spite match more often then not.

      A stomp can be created from a speed blitz, speed blitz itself doesn't mean stomp though.

      Speed Blitz is the act of one attacking their opponent before they are capable of perceiving or reacting to them. Blitzing is different than outpacing, where a character is simply faster than the other. A blitz is more like an all around outclassing in speed.

      Yujiro can amp to be faster

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    • Yes but the concept remains the same. The reason a speed blitz victory isn't added is because "a slower character is faster than a faster character". Which is plain stupid. Similarly the case here is saying the same just "Not a total outclass of speed, but Yujiro is faster than a faster character". 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yes but the concept remains the same. The reason a speed blitz victory isn't added is because "a slower character is faster than a faster character". Which is plain stupid. Similarly the case here is saying the same just "Not a total outclass of speed, but Yujiro is faster than a faster character". 

      If Yujiro isn't blitzing, it's not against the rules, that's why both fighters are allowed to speed amp, not just the faster character

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    • Both characters are allowed to speed amp. But the slower character isn't allowed to gain an advantage. 

      If yujiro and ikki both had an amp of 50x for example. And both use it, it's ok, because Yujiro's not becoming faster than a faster character. 

      Speed amps for the slower character can only be used to keep up with the faster character's speed amps, not to gain an advantage. Not to mention if his speed will make him be over the 10 x 10 feat that is pretty outclassing.

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    • But eh i'll wait for you to prove the speed amp first then continue.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Both characters are allowed to speed amp. But the slower character isn't allowed to gain an advantage. 

      If yujiro and ikki both had an amp of 50x for example. And both use it, it's ok, because Yujiro's not becoming faster than a faster character. 

      Speed amps for the slower character can only be used to keep up with the faster character's speed amps, not to gain an advantage. Not to mention if his speed will make him be over the 10 x 10 feat that is pretty outclassing.

      Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:

      Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

      The concept is the same. The difference is just smaller.

      I should probably make a thread on it soon, to clarify/reword that.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:

      Where does it say that? I only see the rule about speed blitzes

      The concept is the same. The difference is just smaller.

      I should probably make a thread on it soon, to clarify/reword that.

      If that is accepted, I will concede the point. Until then, the point stands

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    • So wait. Say speed is equal and bith characters can amp their speed. Character A is naturally faster then Character B. Character A has a speed amp of times 5 and character B has an amp of times 8. Dies that mean Character B isn't allowed to win in that case?

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      So wait. Say speed is equal and bith characters can amp their speed. Character A is naturally faster then Character B. Character A has a speed amp of times 5 and character B has an amp of times 8. Dies that mean Character B isn't allowed to win in that case?

      Let's say that character A starts at a speed value of 10 units, and B has a value of 5. Speed equalized basically makes it 1-1 (can't remember if A lowers to 5 or if B is raised to 10), so if A amps to 5x and B amps to 8x, B, despite originally being slower, would be faster. So long as B doesn't speed blitz A, the current rule says this is a valid victory.

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    • Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.

      There's one combo of moves that could, Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together (Apnea Rush allows the user to hold their breath for an insane amount of time, or 5 minutes under extreme conditions, so the user can punch a hundred times in under 5 seconds, and Hand Pocket, a move that allows Yujiro to outspeed a thought-based ability, 0.5 Seconds). That combo has been banned due to possible blitzing.

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    • What about separately then together?

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      What about separately then together?

      Separately, Ikki should be able to dodge or block (block would end badly tho) Apnea Rush, but I think Hand Pocket can land a clear hit in its first use (and one hit is all Yujiro needs).

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    • Then this is still fair if Yujiro has a Wincon.

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      Then this is still fair if Yujiro has a Wincon.

      I think so as well

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      2. Not really, burden of proof on you to prove all of them are good. I'm telling you to stick to the ones that have feats, but you really don't like that apparently. So yeah bring me proof of every single martial arts in existence being not only combat applicable, but in certain ways superior to every martial arts shown in Baki.

      3. Aiki doesn't work with grapplings. It's Shibukawa's skill that can deal with grappling, not Aiki.

      Aiki specifically requires physical contact.

      Aiki has never shown to work on swords.

      4. Wrong again. In that very fight, at no point was Kaku Kaioh blown away when hit with a punch that wasn't in the centre of gravity. He just kept rotating, idk where you got the "blown away is a result of Xiao Lee" and Xiao Lee in its very concept wouldn't work against thrust type of attacks. Xiao Lee is just relaxing your muscless, the more relax your muscles the easier the blade will slip through.

      8. Yeah that's better. So there are a bunch of techniques Yujiro can't copy. Those being Trackless Step, Edelweiss sword style, every other sword style (by virtue of being sword styles), Perfect Vision....basically he can't copy anything important.

      9. How is saying he lost all 5 senses implying "he lost even abstract senses like awareness and danger sense". And no Yujiro ain't dodging something 200x his speed, just no.

      10. He was actually scared of when he was about to take on Kaku's punch. And idk how "in control" somehow means "i will use my best ability, but not my other abilities". If he were in control he wouldn't need to use Demon Back and if he wasn't in control why didn't he add Sangan to Demon Back. No matter how you spin it, no Sangan.

      11. Durability doesn't matter, that's what Xiao Lee is for. And Yujiro's durability doesn't matter against a guy who can cut metal with paper. 

      @Baki

      I could go into details as why that would not be enough. By mentioning how people less skilled than ikki beat 10 people 10x faster effortlessly. But i will take the easy way out and say if we somehow assume Yujiro will use those at all, it would be a speed blitz, something that isn't allowed in speed equal if your opponent is faster, like ikki is. 

      2. I can't give proof that doesn't exist in the manga. But it's implicit that, if all the martial arts showed so far in the series are combat applicable and serve their purposes, all the other ones should also be combat applicable. That's why it's a martial (of or appropriate to war; warlike) art. You're simply trying to dismiss a feat that is very straightfoward. Anyways, it's not even worth arguing this as Yujiro already knows and uses a "perfect" martial art, it's called Udonde, it's explictly said to have no openings and even the likes of Orochi Doppo are helpless against it. 

      3. I'll be putting the wiki paragraph here again for reference:  " Aiki is a Japanese martial arts principle or tactic in which the defender blends (without clashing) with the attacker, then goes on to dominate the assailant through the strength of their application of internal dynamics or Ki energy to affect techniques. " 

      A grappling is a physical attack that produces ki energy. It can be reflected. Sword slashes are physical attacks that also produce ki energy. They can be reflected. A bite is a physical attack that produces 0 ki energy, and as such can't be reflected.  And no, Aiki doesn't need to have physical contact. I've denoted that in the text. 

      4. C'mon dude, they literally said he used Xiao Lee. That was the moment Kaku said Yujiro had already mastered Xiao Lee. Getting great knockback is one of Xiao Lee's way to dissipate the energy of the punch. While i do agree with that, Xiao Lee already has solid examples of working against the best swordsman of the verse, so it's also pointless to argue that.

      ​​​​​​8. I'm not sure, what all these abilities do and what's the explanation behind them? I do agree he can't copy sword styles tho.

      9. The author isn't gonna waste narration hype making a list of all the senses Ikki has, that's why he just said the main ones that we know of, at least that's how i interpret it. He can thanks to AP, 6th sense, and whatnot. Ikki could do the same tbh, it's not surprising when we are dealing with characters this skilled. 

      10. Well yeah, but he was in base and he just got scared because he only sensed the true AP of that attack after it was a few inches away from his face. And using Demon Back doesn't really mean you're not in control, if anything it means the Ogre considers your worthy of being defeated by his true power. Orochi Doppo never had a chance against Yujiro and Yujiro transformed in DB anyways. Yujiro tends to think (with reason) martial arts are a way for the weak to overcome the strong, and as his place in the verse as strongest character he avoids using them unless needed. That's why you won't see him using most of his abilitied in his verse, because no one stands a chance against him anyways. 

      11. You do know anyone at 7-C could vaporize the Eiffel Tower with a finger flick if they felt like it, right? 

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:

      XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.

      There's one combo of moves that could, Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together (Apnea Rush allows the user to hold their breath for an insane amount of time, or 5 minutes under extreme conditions, so the user can punch a hundred times in under 5 seconds, and Hand Pocket, a move that allows Yujiro to outspeed a thought-based ability, 0.5 Seconds). That combo has been banned due to possible blitzing.

      That's not beyond the 10x 10 feat. Not even close.

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    • Add for KG's arguments. I'll answer tomorrow but those arguments are getting worse and worse.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Add for KG's arguments. I'll answer tomorrow but those arguments are getting worse and worse.

      Take your time. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:

      BakiHanma18 wrote:

      XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      Can Yujiro even blitz Ikki? From all of his bullshit, that sounds damn near impossible to do.
      There's one combo of moves that could, Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together (Apnea Rush allows the user to hold their breath for an insane amount of time, or 5 minutes under extreme conditions, so the user can punch a hundred times in under 5 seconds, and Hand Pocket, a move that allows Yujiro to outspeed a thought-based ability, 0.5 Seconds). That combo has been banned due to possible blitzing.
      That's not beyond the 10x 10 feat. Not even close.

      The thought based ability outspeed was also someone slower than him, but it's first showing might actually be a better one (that's the one I've been looking at for using here). I'll get the details for that one to you in a bit

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    • What i feel like gives Yujiro the win here is that he one-shots, on top of his plenthora of abilities. And it seems like Ikki only uses Rasetsu when he has no other option, what i think won't happen here, they're pretty even.

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    • KGiffoni wrote: What i feel like gives Yujiro the win here is that he one-shots, on top of his plenthora of abilities. And it seems like Ikki only uses Rasetsu when he has no other option. 

      Actually rasetsu gg is an argument. Im just not using it yet because i wanna have ikki win without it and have them restricted by the end in case of stomp

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      2. First. Unusable argument you're asking me to prove a negative. You gotta prove positives, for why a random martial art like TaiChi for example is extremely good in Baki. Not ask me to "prove why it's not". Burden of proof is on you.

      And the 2nd part about this. Is by saying "everything is useful", you're literally implying that basic boxing, karate, taichi, taekwondo etc are all on par with chinese kung fu and Akido in terms of effectiveness in combat. In other words "every martial art is just as useful as the best martial art in baki", otherwise if they aren't as useful, then they're useless because there is a better martial art. Which is plain wrong, we know some martial arts are MUCH better than others in baki.

      3. Using the wiki doesn't somehow make it more believable when its plain contradicted by the show. Shibukawa very clearly touches people to redirect their attacks. He doesn't move his hands randomly and everything ends up getting reflected. So again until you prove me that he's not touching any of the characters to reflect their attacks it is a useless point. As for biting, it produces energy, it wasn't reflected. Grappling produces energy, doesn't get reflected. And so on. So putting it on a level of "anything that produces energy can be reflected" is highballing it to oblivion. It is these kinds of NLF things that resulted in Katanagatari's downgrade.

      4. Yes he used Xiao Lee so that he wouldn't get damaged. Not "he was flung away because of Xiao Lee". He was send to space because of the energy of that punch, it's just that he did not tank that impact he instead let it flow past him. And show me scans of the Xiao Lee on swords, need to see what kind of attack was used.

      8. I assume you mean Trackless Step and Perfect Vision. Trackless Step is moving in ways that makes the brain categorize you as unnecessary information, basically you can't realize you can perceive Ikki (your eyes see him, but your mind doesn't process it, so you don't realize you can see him). Perfect Vision is his precog, Yujiro hasn't precoged anyone to the extent of Perfect Vision i believe (then again Perfect Vision is a sword stealing technique used on ppl).

      9. The rest aren't really "senses" though. They're senses by our standards, example the danger sense is because ikki has been at death's door so many times so he now kind of feels that shit coming. Awareness is basically as someone said "he has no blind spots, he sees everything inside the ring" (which they stated would make entering his blind spots useless), there is "the samurai's 6th sense", which basically means he doesn't miss anything that enters his range, no matter how fast, perceivable/unperceivable it is etc. You can't really shut those kinds of things down. Besides as i said, it doesn't really matter even if he shuts these down as i said he does addapt to stuff mid Ittou Rasetsu, so it's not like it matters whether you stick with my interpretation or yours, what he does doesn't change. And no, 6th sense and AP don't let you dodge something which cuts you down before you can even process the info or order your muslces to move. But i'd rather not resort to this.

      10. That's not exactly true, Yujiro uses martial arts like boxing and stuff all the time, he used Xiao Lee, he probs used a lot more stuff than i can remember, but that's not the point. And he was still scared of the attack, for a moment he fell back, because he was scared to tank it, why didn't he just use akido? It would have cost him a lot less than falling back in the eyes of tons of ppl which didn't even know he could. I guess getting scared and running away from a clash is way more in character than using martial arts which could get him out of a tough spot....

      11. Yes, said people can't get past Xiao Lee. Your point?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:

      2. I don't think there are stronger martial arts in the Bakiverse. All of them give different abilities that can be used differently. If we were to ignore the abilities and just say which is the one that has a better CQC, i'd say it's Udonde since it has no openings. But the things is, let's see what are considered "useless martial arts" in real life, that is, martial arts that don't work so well in actual fights. From reading on r/martialarts, it seems Aikido and some types of Chinese Kenpo fall under this category. Now let's see how they do in the Bakiverse. They're constantly shown to be very combat applicable. By instance, Goki Shibukawa's Aikido allows him attack reflection, what is a reference to real life Aikido's purpose of "defend themselves while also protecting their attackers from injury." Chinese Kenpo gives different abilities based on style, but we also know it's not useless since a young Kaku Kaioh got curbstomped by a Kenpo practitioner that was, physically speaking, way weaker than Kaku himself. The martial arts complete each other in a way none of them are 100% useless, while i understand what you're saying, most of them are different in their own special ways. 

      3. No, he touches people. Just veeery lightly, and most of the time it's not even him touching them, more like they touching him. Here's a good example of Aiki being used.   The bite produces 0 energy and that's why it's the perfect counter for Aiki. This is explictly said in the manga, and as such it's noted on the wiki page too: "The bite is also the antithesis of the technique named Aiki, since the force to attack is 0, the user of aiki cannot redirect it. ". Grapples can also be reflected, that is shown in the fight i linked if you pay attention. It's also explictly shown that Jack couldn't do anything to Shibukawa other than try and bite him since everything else was being flawlessly reflected. 

      4. Yeah, that's what i said. For the Xiao Lee with swords, here are the important scans.  Now, keep in mind, you might argue that "yeah but it left a good cut on him anyways". While that's true. In this example i gave you Retsu's durability was about 2307x below Musashi's AP. In the example of this Vs Match, however, Yujiro not only holds a natural durability advantage but also knows a mastered Xiao Lee, while Retsu's was only an incomplete version. 

      8. Trackless Step is something like mind manip then? Perhaps sense manip is more adequate? What do you think? 

      As for Perfect Vision, at least from what i see in his profile, it seems like it has roots in magic. Is that right? If so, i don't think Yujiro can copy it. Anyways, Yujiro has his own AP and Information Analysis

      9. I see. For the dodging a "200 times faster than you attack", it's possible if you knew when it's gonna happen and how, but you have to identify it x seconds before it happens, x being the time you need in order to move so the attack won't hit you. It's possible for people this skilled.

      10. Yujiro claimed, at the start of the fight, that it would be a fight of "strenght against logic". After Yujiro showed Kaku the fact he mastered Xiao Lee, he said he wouldn't use it ever again. Kaku then claims Yujiro might have mastered a better martial art, and Yujiro punches the ground, breaking the ground of the arena. It's implicit that Yujiro thinks brute strenght will always be above technique. God, he even calls Chinese Kenpo "circus bullshit". It's clear that, at least in that particular fight, he didn't intend to use any techniques and only his genuine strenght. 

      About Yujiro being in control of the situation, Kaku Kaioh goes as far as saying Yujiro is a lion while everyone else is simply a "prey", including himself. 

      11. Xiao Lee is created for people who are weak fight the strong. In Xiao Lee, you can tank attacks thousands of times stronger than yourself, specially if you're a master at it. It's only natural that if YOU, the Xiao Lee master, has the durability advantage, your opponent doesn't have a chance to damage you. It's logic. Unless they have a technique that counters it very hard, what Ikki lacks.

      ​​​​​

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    • Ugh, the wiki ate my comment, anyway time to rewrite this.

      2. Yes but some martial arts being having use at all in battle, doesn't mean all others are, you gotta prove that. As for chinese kenpo that wasn't good proof, if it doesn't allow you to fight stronger opponents it's not martial art.

      3. First of all, the wiki says "force" not "energy". The difference betweent the 2 is very important. Force causes motion, grappling and biting have no resultant force and it therefore doesn't cause motion. A sword thrust won't cause motion either, it'll pierce right through. So again show proof of working against swords.

      And no he doesn't "touch them very lightly" he redirects their motion to cause them to fall or get hurt. He touches them very much, it has absolutely 0 things to do with KI redirection, it is just basic physics on cracks. A lot of martial arts irl do that, obviously not to that extent because of fiction, but the concept is the same. 

      4. First, AP and Durability don't matter against Xiao Lee, drop it.

      Second Musashi is either trash at realizing how Xiao lee works, or he got CIS'd hard. Those kid of slashes are begging for Xiao Lee to redirect it. Show me it working against a thrust.

      8. It's neither he is not manipulating anything. He's just making himself move in very unimportant ways. So your brain doesn't even considering him as worth processing. He basically becomes like a pebble which you don't pay attention to.

      9. No, aim dodging doesn't work against living things. Ikki can always fix. And even then you can't move nearly enough out of the way to dodge Ikki's slash before he slashes you. The speed difference is too high to try anything at all. Point is if Ikki uses Ittou Rasetsu it's over.

      10. You're proving my point, Yujiro will almost never use these unless he's at basically death's door. He will run away from an attack, get hit, continue fighting for a long time, yet not decide to use martial arts.

      What's even the proof for him knowing these techniques?

      11. Yes you're still proving my point "AP and Durability don't matter".

      And "Unless you have a hard counter". No....pulling a fucking hair bypasses it, being hit into a wall bypasses it, freaking slaps from both sides bypass it. A thrust to the centre of gravity would bypass it just as easily. You can't reflect when there are 2 forces acting on your body (which is why it doesn't work when hit into a wall or slaps). On a thrust, mass proves resistance to being moved, while the force tries to push it, which causes the blade to sink in. Again prove Xiao Lee would work on sword thrusts that is not a slash that a 10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics would do. Or even something like a bullet.

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    • Nvm about Hand Pocket and Cockroach Tackle, they'd both blitz the shit outta Ikki. Cockroach Tackle's speed is only 168mph, but it's acceleration is 16,800,000 mph/ms, or 7,510,272,000 m/s^2, so I seriously doubt Ikki can do much of anything about Cockroach Tackle, and Hand Pocket is likely faster, as Yujiro decided to use Hand Pocket to counter 0.5, not Cockroach Tackle

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    • Acceleration difference? 

      You do know ikki literally has no acceleration, as in literally goes from 0 to top speed instantly.

      Acceleration isn't speed, it doesn't blitz. It just makes it hard to react to and ikki has dealt with basically no acceleration before. That isn't a problem.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Acceleration difference? 

      You do know ikki literally has no acceleration, as in literally goes from 0 to top speed instantly.

      Acceleration isn't speed, it doesn't blitz. It just makes it hard to react to and ikki has dealt with basically no acceleration before. That isn't a problem.

      Right, but this is a speed amp, are you sure Ikki would still be fine?

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    • It's not a speed amp, it's just reaching the speed sooner. It doesn't increase it.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It's not a speed amp, it's just reaching the speed sooner. It doesn't increase it.

      It's noted as a speed amp on his page, and I'm inclined to agree, as he's able to outright blitz Yujiro the first time he uses it, despite being considerably slower

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:

      2. I mean, it's not only logic but also supported by real statistics that most martial arts are very effective in combat. I can't proof all of them are top tier, but most are above average, some are top tier, and some are below average, if we were to have base on real life martial arts. What i can guarantee is that, aside from Sumo, all the martial arts shown so far are very effective in combat. As for the Chinese Kenpo example i gave, i think i was a bit confusing, let me rephrase that:

      Kaku Kaioh once was a very buff guy who didn't believe in martial arts. He was the strongest in the entire Asia, and a random Chinese Kenpo user that was physically way weaker than this Kaku completly curbstomped him thanks to his martial art.

      3. Aiki is directly, like, literally with those words, said to work via chi manipulation. What you're thinking is about "force" and "energy" as physicists terms, but in the context these words were used they were refering to "chi energy", not actual force and energy as in newtons and joules. 

      4. Except they do? Yujiro defeated Kaku Kaioh's defensive Xiao Lee via brute force. Kaku Kaioh had to use his biological manip and body control to literally cause a clinical death to avoid the last punch from the Ogre, that both Kaku Kaioh and Yujiro claim would have killed him. Meaning: Defensive Xiao Lee can be bypassed if the AP/Durability gap is THAT big (a guy who needs a wheelchair to move and can barely lift chopsticks vs a guy who stops an earthquake with a punch).

      As for Musashi, what is CIS? 

      ​​​​​​Anyways, 13yo Baki already could make something similar to Xiao Lee for both sword and fencing users so i'm pretty sure a Yujiro with mastery over Xiao Lee could do something waaaaaay better. 

      8. The result seems similar to Yujiro's limited invisibility, but they work in different ways. Anyway, can't this technique be avoided by Enhanced Sixth?

      9. It does. And you can, but you need to predict the attack x secs before it happening, x being what i explained later. 

      10. He does. By instance, he used Udonde against Doppo. It's just that, in that specific match, Yujiro wanted to proof the Chinese Kenpo that both Kaku and Retsu were so proud of and its "4000 years of history" isn't anything worth writing home about for Yujiro. 

      ​​​​​11. Refer to point number 4.

      SBA assumes they're fighting at the Central Park, basically an open area with little to no walls nearby. 

      While that might seem like it's right, the whole thing about Xiao Lee is that it turns your body resistance to 0, literally like a leaf in the wind.  And by the love of god, don't call the most skilled swordsman of the verse a "10y/o kid with 0 experience on martial arts and physics"

      About the hair thing, that is true. But first Ikki has to identify this weakness and even then, similar to biting, he'd have to come close to Yujiro to make that, what can be deadly versus someone who casually one-shots you. And he has to do this for every single swing, it's not a one-time thing.

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It's not a speed amp, it's just reaching the speed sooner. It doesn't increase it.
      It's noted as a speed amp on his page, and I'm inclined to agree, as he's able to outright blitz Yujiro the first time he uses it, despite being considerably slower

      Well we don't have an acceleration page so that's why.

      And it doesn't "blitz" it creates that effect because you have less time to react to it. Example if someone starts a car 10 ft away and tries to run you over he can't because it accelerates too slow. If he were to start at top speed he'd run you over. 

      It isn't faster, it is just you have a lot less time to prepare due to spending less time accelerating. It's not an actual blitz, but it creates a similar effect (ikki did that too when he started learning Edelweiss style which removes the need to accelerate)

      And as i said, Ikki deals with i guess it would be infinite actually, acceleration or no acceleration, idk which term to use. Where the attacks do not spend time to get to a certain speed. A feat completely dwafring that. So yes he would deal with it.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It's not a speed amp, it's just reaching the speed sooner. It doesn't increase it.
      It's noted as a speed amp on his page, and I'm inclined to agree, as he's able to outright blitz Yujiro the first time he uses it, despite being considerably slower
      Well we don't have an acceleration page so that's why.

      And it doesn't "blitz" it creates that effect because you have less time to react to it. Example if someone starts a car 10 ft away and tries to run you over he can't because it accelerates too slow. If he were to start at top speed he'd run you over. 

      It isn't faster, it is just you have a lot less time to prepare due to spending less time accelerating. It's not an actual blitz, but it creates a similar effect (ikki did that too when he started learning Edelweiss style which removes the need to accelerate)

      And as i said, Ikki deals with i guess it would be infinite actually, acceleration or no acceleration, idk which term to use. Where the attacks do not spend time to get to a certain speed. A feat completely dwafring that. So yes he would deal with it.

      That doesn't help with Hand Pocket, which actually is a purely speed amping, I'll keep looking for feats, as there are still more, but as of right now, the move's natural speed is faster than something that accelerates as fast as Cockroach Tackle does, and it was able to outspeed a thought-based move

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    • It may not be faster though, it may be just another accel amp. And Cockroach Tackle is not fast, it's quick to gain speed.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It may not be faster though, it may be just another accel amp. And Cockroach Tackle is not fast, it's quick to gain speed.

      It is faster, and I didn't say Cockroach Tackle was fast just now, I said the move's natural speed is faster than something that accelerates as fast as Cockroach Tackle does. A move having insane speed and a move happening very fast (velocity vs acceleration) apply similar effects. As far as it being fast, it was deemed a better move to outspeed the thought-based ability that Cockroach Tackle.

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    • I never said it's fast either, what i meant was "natural speed is faster than sth that accelerates so quickly". Acceleration isn't speed. So saying "it's faster than acceleration" isn't really a good comparison. 

      Even being a little faster than Cockroach Tackle you'd be outspeeding it.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      I never said it's fast either, what i meant was "natural speed is faster than sth that accelerates so quickly". Acceleration isn't speed. So saying "it's faster than acceleration" isn't really a good comparison. 

      Even being a little faster than Cockroach Tackle you'd be outspeeding it.

      If the speed of Hand Pocket is deemed better to outspeed something that a move that accelerates as quickly as it does, Hand Pocket would have to have some impressive speed is what I'm getting at

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    • It really depends on how fast the acceleration of Hand Pocket is. It has to be very comparable at the very least otherwise cockroach tackle would be faster because it would take HP more time to accelerate than it does CT to finish the action.

      Also why is it even faster? Ever stated? Choosing to use HP doesn't mean it's faster. He may have just chosen that, not all choices are optimal.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      It really depends on how fast the acceleration of Hand Pocket is. It has to be very comparable at the very least otherwise cockroach tackle would be faster because it would take HP more time to accelerate than it does CT to finish the action.

      Also why is it even faster? Ever stated? Choosing to use HP doesn't mean it's faster. He may have just chosen that, not all choices are optimal.

      I got nothing for its acceleration, just that it is one of, if not the, fastest moves

      Yujiro was up against a move that allows his opponent to attack when he should be reacting to information, and he chose to outspeed it. Yujiro is one of the most skilled and intelligent people in Baki, a verse full of masters of combat and amazing tacticians. Every move he makes in a fight he absolutely deems to be the "real thing" is optimal, no exceptions. If he chose HP over CT, it's simply due to HP being superior to what Yujiro wanted to achieve

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    • Not really. If yujiro decides to use a glock that doesn't make it the best gun.

      Why would he use the most optimal move in the first place? Yujiro may have no need to use the best of the best.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Not really. If yujiro decides to use a glock that doesn't make it the best gun.

      Why would he use the most optimal move in the first place? Yujiro may have no need to use the best of the best.

      If Yujiro decide to use a Glock in any given situation and he is the most skill gunslinger on the planet, far exceeding the gunplay of every other slinger in history, yes, the Glock would be the beat Gun for that situation

      Because he was literally combating a move that allows someone to skip their own reactionary phase and he was attempting to outspeed

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    • If it was like that he would've used speed amps too. Sangan, demon back etc etc.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      If it was like that he would've used speed amps too. Sangan, demon back etc etc.

      1) Sangan wouldn't have help at all due to the nature of how 0.5 works

      2) He did activate DB later, but it wouldn't have helped in that instance

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    • Speed amps don't work but a fast attack does....

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Speed amps don't work but a fast attack does....

      Because the "fast attack" is a speed amp, I already said that

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    • Yes that's what im saying.

      You're saying other speed amps don't work but that one will.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yes that's what im saying.

      You're saying other speed amps don't work but that one will.

      Sorry, let me explain in greater detail.

      Its not really that they wouldn't help, persay, but more so that they'd be overkill. Sangan and DB would only serve to shorten Yujiro's reactionary phase so that Yujiro could counter, block, or evade Baki's attack even though 0.5 is active (unless 0.5 still would've prevented action as well, making 0.5 much more potent than we previously realized, but there's no concrete proof of that), but that wasn't what Yujiro was trying to do. He wasn't trying to hit Baki DURING 0.5, he was trying to outspeed 0.5., which he was able to do successfully even without Sangan and DB (Yujiro had been hit with it once prior from Baki, and he himself knows the technique and is better with it, so he would know how potent Baki's is and how fast he'd need to be). To continue the Glock analogy, why would the most impressive gunslinger in the world add an ACOG scope, FMJ bullets, and an extended clip to the Glock if he already knows the Glock by itself is good enough?

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    • Exactly my point. Why would he use his best as opposed to just something that works? That's what im saying to prove that because yuji used it doesn't mean it's better than CT, it just means it's something that would work then and there. It means you can't compare the two.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Exactly my point. Why would he use his best as opposed to just something that works? That's what im saying to prove that because yuji used it doesn't mean it's better than CT, it just means it's something that would work then and there. It means you can't compare the two.

      But the purpose of both and the mechanic behind them is the same in this situation. They are both speed amping moves that he can use to outspeed 0.5's activation

      If not because its faster or better for outspeeding, why else would he use HP as opposed to CT? CT also gives an AP boost, so he's sacrificing that AP boost for what reason? Logic would dictate that its likely due to HP being faster/better for outspeeding

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    • Can I get a summary of what Ikki can do? I don’t know anything about him and there is a lot of info here

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    • @Baki

      You didn't get it.

      HP is slower.

      CT is faster.

      Why would he use CT if HP works just fine? Goku doesn't use Instant Transmition to cross the road, is it cus it's not effective? No, but walking works just fine. That logic doesn't work unless Yujiro specifically says that he used HP instead of CT because CT would have not been sufficient.

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    • @KG

      2. Average is not a good skill feat. And there are a lot more non combat applicable martial arts than you think there are. Im just saying, the "master of all martial arts" is not as impressive as you think.

      3. Yes but what it does is refer to them with physical terms when used. There exists no "chi force". And i may need the scan on it, i've watched the anime and there was no statement of it working via supernatural means. But doesn't defeat the point, biting bypassed it, grappling would bypass it for the same reason, and swords, similarly he has never shown to bypass something that would cut his hand off if he tried to push it away.

      4. Not really, he bypassed it by slamming him into a wall where it was explicitly said he couldn't redirect the force.

      The only piercing one of those was the fencing and not only was the guy who used it pretty trash, but Baki very clearly got damage, so that was just him mostly being faster, rather and rotating rather than allowing himself to be rotated. He just hit him back before it could pierce him. Same for the rest of the scans.

      8. Nah, to avoid this you'd need specifically some ability to tap into your unconsciousness or literally lack an unconsciousness.

      9. Not really as i said. Even if you know an hour later. you dodge, ikki still slashes you because, you know, "he can correct his slice to hit you in your dodged position". It's like saying, if a snail knows you're gonna smash him, he can dodge, no he can't.

      10. So basically to ridicule his opponents by using their style against them, not other styles agains them.

      11. No, there are buldings, trees, benches etc, push comes to shove even against the ground its the same.

      I didn't call Musashi a 10y/o without experience, i called the slash he made that of a 10 year old with 0 experience on how to counter Xiao Lee.

      It's not that hard to identify, it's not a very complex move for someone with Ikki's level of analysis. 

      But again Yujiro would just go for just raw smashing him with demon back which would result in Madoka. Yujiro even against skilled opponents never goes for complex use of techniques as he believes raw power is stronger. So again he has never done so when fully serious i do not see why he would do that now and use a dozen techniques off the bat.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @Baki

      You didn't get it.

      HP is slower.

      CT is faster.

      Why would he use CT if HP works just fine? Goku doesn't use Instant Transmition to cross the road, is it cus it's not effective? No, but walking works just fine. That logic doesn't work unless Yujiro specifically says that he used HP instead of CT because CT would have not been sufficient.

      No? Using the faster move to achieve its intended purpose is quite different then using amps that don't affect what you're trying to do. Picking the faster move obviously what he'd do.  Occam's makes this pretty simple: he wanted a fast move, he chose HP over CT, both move are "speed" amps, therefore HP is faster than CT. Yujiro doesn't settle for "okay" when it comes to his moves. He didn't use Benda on Baki even though it would have basically achieved similar results, he used Whip of Mercury, an amped version of Benda, because it was the best. Was it necessary to amp most of the moves he used? No, probably not. Was it optimal? I can't argue with results

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    • Amlad22 wrote:
      Can I get a summary of what Ikki can do? I don’t know anything about him and there is a lot of info here

      Lots of good amps, insanely skilled. That's pretty much it

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    • Question will Edel's swordsmanship be of any help?

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      Question will Edel's swordsmanship be of any help?

      As far as?

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    • There is no Occam's razor here. Occam's razor is between 2 assumptions.

      What im saying here is why would you make an assumption? HP work, there is nothing to say CT wouldn't. Why would you assume it wouldn't? Cus the same argument could be made if he had used CT instead of HP, you'd say CT is faster because he used it. 

      Im not saying "stick to x assumption". I'm saying don't make an assumption at all, assumptions are only used when we have to make assumptions. When we don't have to, it's best not to make one. 

      Conclusion, im fine if you have other feats for HP, but that's no reason to say it's faster than CT because he used it. If both worked he just used one. He doesn't need to go for the best if it isn't needed.

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      Question will Edel's swordsmanship be of any help?

      Yes apparently CT is just fast accel and it has a really strong impact on ppl in the Baki verse.

      Edelweiss style does the same in Rakudai except it's basically CT but massively better. 

      So yeah it would create pseudo blitzin effect. Nothing ground breaking, but nice to have none the less.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      There is no Occam's razor here. Occam's razor is between 2 assumptions.

      What im saying here is why would you make an assumption? HP work, there is nothing to say CT wouldn't. Why would you assume it wouldn't? Cus the same argument could be made if he had used CT instead of HP, you'd say CT is faster because he used it. 

      Im not saying "stick to x assumption". I'm saying don't make an assumption at all, assumptions are only used when we have to make assumptions. When we don't have to, it's best not to make one. 

      Conclusion, im fine if you have other feats for HP, but that's no reason to say it's faster than CT because he used it. If both worked he just used one. He doesn't need to go for the best if it isn't needed.

      I'm looking into the first fight it was used, and it was used by a mid tier to tag a high tier, but I'll get specifics soon

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    • I Never did understand what exactly made Edel's style so strong or special, it's basically a much weaker Ittou Shura amp without stamina

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      I Never did understand what exactly made Edel's style so strong or special, it's basically a much weaker Ittou Shura amp without stamina

      Well it basically allows Ikki to:

      • Have insane body control
      • Use the secret swords without Ittou Shura
      • Not accelerate (so he starts with top speed, meaning he crosses distances much faster creating pseudo blitzing effects, he went from slower to blitzing Yuudai because of this)
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    • On a side note, do you think Cockroach Tackle combined with Hand Pocket could tag Ikki, or is that another blitz-level move?

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    • Secret swords?

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      On a side note, do you think Cockroach Tackle combined with Hand Pocket could tag Ikki, or is that another blitz-level move?

      Cockroach Tackle is the much weaker version of what ikki already does and deals with normally. Hand Pocket, while maybe a speed amp, isn't really blitz worthy. 

      Acceleration isn't a speed blitz, it's mostly an eye trick, it's hard to follow it, but not really fast. And ikki has stuff like Raikou which are faster sword attacks. So that kind of nullifies them both.

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      Secret swords?

      Read his profile

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:
      On a side note, do you think Cockroach Tackle combined with Hand Pocket could tag Ikki, or is that another blitz-level move?
      Cockroach Tackle is the much weaker version of what ikki already does and deals with normally. Hand Pocket, while maybe a speed amp, isn't really blitz worthy. 

      Acceleration isn't a speed blitz, it's mostly an eye trick, it's hard to follow it, but not really fast. And ikki has stuff like Raikou which are faster sword attacks. So that kind of nullifies them both.

      Okay, so if that isn't a blitz, I can at least start building from there. Not sure how it's possible that CT and HP together isn't a blitz when Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket together was, but I'll try to find some stuff that isn't a blitz to outspeed Ikki

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    • Apnea Rush and Hand Pocket?

      Again you need to elaborate on why it's so good, that Hand Pocket.

      But again, nothing you've brought up is in anyway more impressive than the 10 x 10 dodge. Nothing is even close to 10x speed let alone 10 attacks at the same time with 10x speed getting dodged casually.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      @Baki

      I could go into details as why that would not be enough. By mentioning how people less skilled than ikki beat 10 people 10x faster effortlessly. But i will take the easy way out and say if we somehow assume Yujiro will use those at all, it would be a speed blitz, something that isn't allowed in speed equal if your opponent is faster, like ikki is. 

      Is it a speed blitz or not? This is kinda important, because Yujiro, to get the job done, can just keep adding amps until he gets to the proper speed, but blitzing is against the rules

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    • Is Hand Pocket ever stated to increase the speed of the user? All I recall it being is a technique which allows for a swift attack.

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:

      Is it a speed blitz or not? This is kinda important, because Yujiro, to get the job done, can just keep adding amps until he gets to the proper speed, but blitzing is against the rules

      Nope, but it's not even close to being enough to a speed which ikki can't deal with (and that's without amps).

      So cockroach tackle gets negged by Edel Style.

      HP gets negged by raikou.

      So it's not even getting to the point of being faster. Ikki has a plain advantage right now.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      BakiHanma18 wrote:

      Is it a speed blitz or not? This is kinda important, because Yujiro, to get the job done, can just keep adding amps until he gets to the proper speed, but blitzing is against the rules

      Nope, but it's not even close to being enough to a speed which ikki can't deal with (and that's without amps).

      So cockroach tackle gets negged by Edel Style.

      HP gets negged by raikou.

      So it's not even getting to the point of being faster. Ikki has a plain advantage right now.

      That's why I need to know how many more amps to add

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Is Hand Pocket ever stated to increase the speed of the user? All I recall it being is a technique which allows for a swift attack.

      Yes, it allowed Ron to tag Oliva almost before he could react (though he was only semi trying), it let Baki tag Yujiro several times after failing a full out blitz, so it was decided that it's a speed amp

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    • Add all you want, see if you can do anything. Add them all, see if it blitzes.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Add all you want, see if you can do anything. Add them all, see if it blitzes.

      Okay, this might take a bit

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    • Im basically allowing bloodlusted Yujiro here, but eh. I don't want there to be any doubt that Ikki is superior, so that's fine.

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    • Starting to think this isn't fair if Ikki's just gonna blitz him anyway.

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    • How can Ikki blitz aside from Rasetsu?

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    • From what I'm hearing Ikki can apparently dance around people 10x faster than him and throwing 10 attacks at the same time at him super casually. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, so his Reaction speed has to be absurd. Doesn't Speed Equal equalize all speeds?

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    • Sangan alone can do that, let alone the other amps.

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote: From what I'm hearing Ikki can apparently dance around people 10x faster than him and throwing 10 attacks at the same time at him super casually. That doesn't make any sense whatsoever, so his Reaction speed has to be absurd. Doesn't Speed Equal equalize all speeds?

      What kind of writing is this...lol This doesn't make sense to me unless the MC had a skill to amp up his speed to a crazy amount

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    • Wait, I just remembered something. Doesn't Yujiro just have to last 61 seconds? If so, can't he use his "Precog" to just outlast Ikki?

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    • XSOULOFCINDERX wrote:
      Wait, I just remembered something. Doesn't Yujiro just have to last 61 seconds? If so, can't he use his "Precog" to just outlast Ikki?

      That is right, but Ikki also has his own Analytical Prediction. In practice they're the same tho.

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    • Ok that's a lot of ppl to answer. I'll answer them in order

      @Soul

      Not so soon, i got plans here. Don't worry about the blitz will ya? I haven't brought up "ikki blitz gg" as an argument yet have I? Why should you care? Just let me manage this.

      @KG

      Ittou Shura is a 10x amp to all his stats, given everything Ikki can do it can be very blitzy.

      @Soul

      That was done by someone less skilled than Ikki actually. It was Fu Xiaoli and it wasn't because of speed, they're specifically faster, it's just that too much skill can actually make up for it. I've posted the quote before, but i'll post it at the end of this comment.

      @Kg

      Not really...again until there is a multiplier for Sangan it ain't doing it. Also show me the scene of Sangan being used.

      @Soul

      Nah, cus this isn't Ittou Shura ikki, this is base Ikki. Base Ikki doesn't have such a time limit.

      Anyway the quote of skill outdoing speed. Ikki also did the same with 4 of his clones in Ittou Shura defeating them in a similar way.

      At that moment, Kiba and Larp became speechless with the sight before their eyes.

      The ice clones that attacked simultaneously at a speed that even created afterimages of them.

      Xiaoli dodged all the storm of instant slashes unleashed by them.

      No, she let the slashes go past her. That wasn't surprising in itself.

      If the person had a degree of strength, then it was possible. Larp was one of them.

      Surprisingly, Xiaoli's defensive body movements were also one of those.

      A technique that didn't open their eyes wide.

      A speed that didn't disorient them.

      All the movements of Xiaoli could be followed by their eyes.

      They clearly could see what she was doing and what she would attempt to do next.

      That speed of hers was a tenth of Kiba's, or less――?

      ――And yet, she wasn't even grazed by the stroke of swords done by 10 people.

      Not only that, in the little time between slash and slash,

      She destroyed the『ice clones』one after another.

      With palms.

      With fists.

      With kicks.

      With the iron ball attached to her feet.

      Reality betrayed the overwhelming difference in speed. That was the proof of the absolute difference in strength.

      It didn't matter how slow her movements were――the techniques of a master couldn't be dodged.

      There was absolutely no waste in her movements.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:

      @KG

      Ittou Shura is a 10x amp to all his stats, given everything Ikki can do it can be very blitzy.

      @Kg

      Not really...again until there is a multiplier for Sangan it ain't doing it. Also show me the scene of Sangan being used.

      1. I see. 

      2. Sangan was a technique used for average soldiers to defend against and dodge arrows. Speed of the average human is, on an arithmetic medium, 6.35 m/s. Speed of an arrow is, on an arithmetic medium, 80 m/s. Even if we were to use Athletic Human speeds, it would still be in that 10x range.

      ​​​​​​And Doppo Orochi used Sangan to blitz Yujiro, who blitzed Doppo before he started using Sangan. I think with both these feats it's safe to say Sangan is at least a 10x amp.

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    • FML Vs battle just ate my 2 hour response...

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    • Ah shit... here we go again...

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    • BakiHanma18 wrote:
      FML Vs battle just ate my 2 hour response...

      Omega F

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    • Do Ctrl + Z if you haven't refreshed the page yet

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      2. Sangan was a technique used for average soldiers to defend against and dodge arrows. Speed of the average human is, on an arithmetic medium, 6.35 m/s. Speed of an arrow is, on an arithmetic medium, 80 m/s. Even if we were to use Athletic Human speeds, it would still be in that 10x range.

      ​​​​​​And Doppo Orochi used Sangan to blitz Yujiro, who blitzed Doppo before he started using Sangan. I think with both these feats it's safe to say Sangan is at least a 10x amp.

      You don't scale it like that, or else Naruto would have FTL reactions due to kid Sasuke keeping up with MHS+'s actions with the sharingan. Unless a multiplier statement is given scaling like that doesn' t really work.

      And blitzing someone that blitzed you before isn't really equatable to X10.

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    • KGiffoni wrote:
      Do Ctrl + Z if you haven't refreshed the page yet

      You're a homie for sure, and I appreciate the help, but my dumbass almost immediately refreshed...

      I have the basics of what I was saying in my head, so I'll dive back in

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      2. Sangan was a technique used for average soldiers to defend against and dodge arrows. Speed of the average human is, on an arithmetic medium, 6.35 m/s. Speed of an arrow is, on an arithmetic medium, 80 m/s. Even if we were to use Athletic Human speeds, it would still be in that 10x range.

      ​​​​​​And Doppo Orochi used Sangan to blitz Yujiro, who blitzed Doppo before he started using Sangan. I think with both these feats it's safe to say Sangan is at least a 10x amp.

      First of all, not applicable scaling and second of all, that's not how it works. You can aim dodge easily, even a small boost in reaction speed would allow that.

      Need scan of that, but it isn't 10x either way.

      Anyway big F.

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    • Risci said it perfectly.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:

      KGiffoni wrote:

      2. Sangan was a technique used for average soldiers to defend against and dodge arrows. Speed of the average human is, on an arithmetic medium, 6.35 m/s. Speed of an arrow is, on an arithmetic medium, 80 m/s. Even if we were to use Athletic Human speeds, it would still be in that 10x range.

      ​​​​​​And Doppo Orochi used Sangan to blitz Yujiro, who blitzed Doppo before he started using Sangan. I think with both these feats it's safe to say Sangan is at least a 10x amp.

      You don't scale it like that, or else Naruto would have FTL reactions due to kid Sasuke keeping up with MHS+'s actions with the sharingan. Unless a multiplier statement is given scaling like that doesn' t really work.

      And blitzing someone that blitzed you before isn't really equatable to X10.

      About the 2nd example, i get it. But for the 1st one, why can't it be used? Here's the scan where that is said.

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    • That's it

      Ikki FRA

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    • 8n-verse there is the simple fact that it's not a linear stat amp, outside of it is just pulling out speed ratings out of nowhere through wonky reasoning.

      Regardless, if you want to upgrade his speed rating, that is to be done on a crt

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    • Schnee One wrote:
      That's it

      Ikki FRA

      Could you please retract your vote until we end our arguments? I think it's more fair that way. 

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      About the 2nd example, i get it. But for the 1st one, why can't it be used? Here's the scan where that is said.

      Because aim dodging is a thing. You're not faster than a thrown baseball, but you can easily catch it. Because you see it coming from far away.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      KGiffoni wrote:

      About the 2nd example, i get it. But for the 1st one, why can't it be used? Here's the scan where that is said.

      Because aim dodging is a thing. You're not faster than a thrown baseball, but you can easily catch it. Because you see it coming from far away.

      I see. Anyways, this is a very good amp out of Yujiro's many other speed amps. There's his "near-death" speed amp, Mach Punch also blitzes people who blitz you, Cockroach Tackle also blitzes people who blitz you, and probably some others that i'm forgetting as of rn

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    • So, the TLDR of my points were as follows:

      Sangan (Doppo goes from being blitzed to casually knocking away all of his opponent's attacks)

      Demon Back (4x to all stats)

      Apnea Rush (so fast, someone of a comparable speed to user could only block, couldn't counter or evade, and was only able to stop it by tanking several unguarded punches and punching through the attack)

      Cockroach Tackle (it ain't magical 0 accel, but an accel boost is better than no boost at all)

      Flying Swallow Barrage (someone who was at least Superhuman, possibly Subsonic+ utterly blitzed someone who was Supersonic+)

      Hand Pocket (outspeeds 0.5 and gives a Supersonic+ a Hypersonic+ speed amp)

      Hitless Blow (a Hypersonic+ outsped a faster Hypersonic+ despite only starting the move while his naturally faster enemy was less than an inch away from decking him)

      Jab ( Baki completely blitzes someone with speed comparable to Yujiro, and the only way he could stop the attack is by using precog telepathy to stop the punch before it is thrown)

      Leaning Forward Stance (Outspeed the tail of a T-Rex, which is ~ as fast as the Hitless Blow)

      Mach Punch (allowed a naturally slightly faster character to blitz a naturally slower character, but both were Supersonic+)

      Quadruple Median Line Strike (allowed one character of comparable speed to the other to hit him 4 times before he could react)

      Triceratops Fist (minor speed amp. Unqualified, as every use has been clashed, not dodged)


      Not all moves can be used at once, but several of the moves could be stringed together for major amps.



      Possible combos:

      Sangan+DB+ Cockroach Tackle from a Forward Leaning Stance into an Apnea Rush of Hans Pockets and Jabs

      Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike pattern

      Ikki dodging a combo like this with no amps= major "Press X to doubt" vibes

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    • Oh thank God

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    • I'm like 99% sure that Cockroach Tackle isn't a speed amp, just allows the user to go top speed from the get go. Even then it's not a consistent and it can't be upheld for very long.

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    • damn

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    • @Baki

      I'll answer those later, but many of those aren't valid, because of the fact that you're using calced speeds. Multipliers off of scaling are not taken into account otherwise we would have stuff like Stella having over 100 mil times boosts via scaling, which just isn't happening.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      I'm like 99% sure that Cockroach Tackle isn't a speed amp, just allows the user to go top speed from the get go. Even then it's not a consistent and it can't be upheld for very long.

      It's a single attack, but can be used multiple times. It's a speed amp, Yujiro couldn't dodge Baki's cockroach tackle.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @Baki

      I'll answer those later, but many of those aren't valid, because of the fact that you're using calced speeds. Multipliers off of scaling are not taken into account otherwise we would have stuff like Stella having over 100 mil times boosts via scaling, which just isn't happening.

      There are still many multiple blitzes of characters clear shown to be of comparable speeds, if not one clearly being faster than the other. But I'll be here waitin for a response

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    • Fire btw I'm down to debate Sasaki vs Ikki more at some point tomorrow or the day after since I've gathered a lot more detailed feats.

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    • If it's a speed amp it's a pretty shitty speed amp considering the user can't change directions with it. Also saying Baki blitzed Yujiro is completely false whenever he could prepare himself and block in time.

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      Fire btw I'm down to debate Sasaki vs Ikki more at some point tomorrow or the day after since I've gathered a lot more detailed feats.

      Sure xD. But he has far too little screentime to dethrone ikki. Also you mean a skill debate or an actual fight?

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    • Skill debate fam.

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    • You guys lack power to go into skill debate with this guy

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    • The Prince of Counters wrote:
      If it's a speed amp it's a pretty shitty speed amp considering the user can't change directions with it. Also saying Baki blitzed Yujiro is completely false whenever he could prepare himself and block in time.

      Not being able to change direction doesn't really make it shitty. The purpose is to be fast, not to be able to shoot around the arena and feint a bunch of times

      Yujiro'a being able to react after seeing once is clearly due to him knowing about the move and anticipating it. He even says something along the lines of "You didn't expect that to work twice in a row, did you? You can't just rely on one trick over and over"

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @KG

      2. Average is not a good skill feat. And there are a lot more non combat applicable martial arts than you think there are. Im just saying, the "master of all martial arts" is not as impressive as you think.

      3. Yes but what it does is refer to them with physical terms when used. There exists no "chi force". And i may need the scan on it, i've watched the anime and there was no statement of it working via supernatural means. But doesn't defeat the point, biting bypassed it, grappling would bypass it for the same reason, and swords, similarly he has never shown to bypass something that would cut his hand off if he tried to push it away.

      4. Not really, he bypassed it by slamming him into a wall where it was explicitly said he couldn't redirect the force.

      The only piercing one of those was the fencing and not only was the guy who used it pretty trash, but Baki very clearly got damage, so that was just him mostly being faster, rather and rotating rather than allowing himself to be rotated. He just hit him back before it could pierce him. Same for the rest of the scans.

      8. Nah, to avoid this you'd need specifically some ability to tap into your unconsciousness or literally lack an unconsciousness.

      9. Not really as i said. Even if you know an hour later. you dodge, ikki still slashes you because, you know, "he can correct his slice to hit you in your dodged position". It's like saying, if a snail knows you're gonna smash him, he can dodge, no he can't.

      10. So basically to ridicule his opponents by using their style against them, not other styles agains them.

      11. No, there are buldings, trees, benches etc, push comes to shove even against the ground its the same.

      I didn't call Musashi a 10y/o without experience, i called the slash he made that of a 10 year old with 0 experience on how to counter Xiao Lee.

      It's not that hard to identify, it's not a very complex move for someone with Ikki's level of analysis. 

      But again Yujiro would just go for just raw smashing him with demon back which would result in Madoka. Yujiro even against skilled opponents never goes for complex use of techniques as he believes raw power is stronger. So again he has never done so when fully serious i do not see why he would do that now and use a dozen techniques off the bat.

      2. No, i meant average as in when being used by the average martial artist of that martial art. It's obvious that very few, if any, martial arts are useless when used by a true master, both in real life and in the Bakiverse.

      3. I've asked on the Grappler Baki Discussion Thread since i don't remember all the 800+ chapters of Grappler Baki perfectly. Anyways, it's said in Goki Shibukawa's profile that he has Chi Manip via Aiki so believe it.

      ​​​​​​It can reflect grapples. Shibukawa did it in his fight against Jack, watch it. As for blade attacks, the sword isn't 100% edge y'know. Actually, most of it isn't, and Yujiro's not exactly an idiot  anyways.

      4. 30:30 " Isn't it funny? Death came to pick him just in time... " - Yujiro

      " As a result of my actions, i avoided an unstoppable and destructive punch. By faking my death, i stopped the fist that would've killed me for real. " - Kaku Kaioh himself

      The logic between piercing and cutting is the same: good force distributed through a very small area, maximizing damage. Piercing with a fencing sword is logically superior to cutting someone with a katana thanks to the smaller area, however it's not noticeably better to make up for Yujiro's mastery over Xiao Lee summed with his naturally superior durability.

      8. Instinctive Reaction, 6th sense.

      9. I agree with the first point. Anyways, Ikki only uses Rasetsu if completly cornered, and i think Yujiro can defeat Ikki before that happens since he one-shots.

      ​​​​​10. Yeah, but he only did that in that specific situation. In an actual battle, he uses a good variety of martial arts, specially when fighting someone who he doesn't curbstomp in everything, such as when he fought Baki at the end of SOO.

      11. I'm not North American, i searched "Central Park" in Google Images and a good majority of them show relatively open fields. 

      Alright.

      While i do agree Ikki would eventually catch on to it, not only does it make him vulnerable, but...

      a) He has to get very vulnerable (against someone who one-shots) to make it; b) He has to do it for every attack if he wants them to do anything; c) And even then they wouldn't do much thanks to Yujiro's superior durability.

      That's because he's always in control in his verse, the only person who ever somewhat got comparable to Yujiro both physically and mentally was end of SOO Baki and even then, just barely. It's even revealed that, before his fight with Baki, Yujiro is shown to be a, deep inside, depressed person thanks to the fact nobody is truly comparable to him.


      ​​​​​​

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    • KGiffoni wrote:

      Schnee One wrote:
      That's it

      Ikki FRA

      Could you please retract your vote until we end our arguments? I think it's more fair that way. 

      No, you two have argued for over 100 posts and I've repeatedly found Fire and risci's points to be better, no offense.

      If I waited until you were done, we would be here by 500

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    • Schnee just wanted to take this off his chest lol.

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    • Schnee One wrote:

      KGiffoni wrote:

      Schnee One wrote:
      That's it

      Ikki FRA

      Could you please retract your vote until we end our arguments? I think it's more fair that way. 
      No, you two have argued for over 100 posts and I've repeatedly found Fire and risci's points to be better, no offense.

      If I waited until you were done, we would be here by 500

      Alright. I understand.

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    • Btw i will respond to both KG and Baki tomorrow, since im lazy af now.

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    • Ok. I will wait for this thread to hit 400 messages before voting, more than that i wouldn't be able to keep up

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    • @Baki I'll only cover the possible combinations:

      Sangan + DB + Cockroach Tackle from Forward stance to Apnea rush or Hand Pocket.

      Sangan = Doesn't contribute to movement speed.

      DB = 4x i guess. Iirc that's just cus of scaling, but it's not like 3x or 4x would really make a difference so im fine with it, though what was the proof that it doesn't boost only strength?

      Cockroach Tackle = Just speeds up acceleration, doesn't even contribute when your opponent is someone who doesn't accel at all.

      Forward Stance = This is barely an upgrade at all. If i take a stance before running i can also run a tad faster. It doesn't mean the upgrade is anything worth noting though.

      Apnea Rush = Not really faster, if your classmate punches you, it doesn't mean you're capable of dodging it without expecting it first. Try it. And even if you do wanna say faster, it is so little, it's not even useful.

      Hand Pocket = Scaling speed multiplier, it's not really anything quantifiable.

      So at best even being lenient on all of these it is still no more than a 10x amp, which ikki deals with casually.

      Sangan+DB+ Triceratops Fist into a Flying Swallow Barrage, to use a bunch of Hitless Blows and Mach Punches into a Quadruple Median Line Strike pattern

      Sangan and DB stated above.

      Triceratop Fist = I mean you say yourself it's not even a speed amp.

      Flying Swallow Barrage = Again scaling speeds, unquantifiable.

      Hitless Blows = Not a speed amp, pure whipping motion, it's faster than a regular punch, but nothing special. It is barely a speed amp but the user's arm is destroyed after this one so...

      Quadruple Meridian Line Strike = This is plain wrong. If you're refering to Katsumi vs Dorian, Katsumi was immensly faster. Hell, from being hanged, Katsumi turned around with a kick and kicked his face, and Dorian couldn't even block against it. If you're interpreting everything like this i'll start to doubt the validity of each of these "speed amps".

      And even this while it may be better than the first one, it still isn't better than the 10 x 10 feat.

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    • @Kg

      2. Argue only those you have feats for, don't get into generalizations. That's the last i'll say on this point.

      3. Ok when you find the scan link it. About reflecting grapples, no, it is the very thing that it can't reflect. He can turn around and do wonky shit to mess with your wrist not reflect it. There is a reason Jack slowly approached his hand trying to grab him, because he knew Gouki would attack there because he knew Aiki couldn't do anything about it. 6:54.

      4. Because even normal Yujiro punches were slamming him against the wall where he couldn't reflect them. Normal punches almost killed him, now what would happen if Yujiro had used his strongest punch with the same effect of not being able to reflect it? 

      Im not saying "no level of AP can get past it", but Yujiro's level of AP only got past it because of the walls around.

      Not the point, the idea is where he is attacked. Slashing was a bisect attempt, a VERY wrong move against someone who would just flip to avoid the damage. Piercing on the other hand, flip all you want you'll never deflect a blow to the center of gravity (the place there where the flippling happens). As for the fencing guy, it was mostly a feat of speed, as Baki willingly turned around to counter attack, doesn't in anyway scale to Xiao Lee.

      8. Nope, not enough. Insinctive reaction is still when you can at least perceive something. At least until proven wrong.

      9. Not really, it has been used as an oppening move, 3 times. And as a last resort twice (even though the 2nd time he had planned to use it from the start he just needed an opening). And ikki has actual precog on top of analytical prediction, he knows exactly when to use it. He's not reluctant to use it, he's just wary of using it as he can't waste it. Anyway i don't want to argue this yet.

      10. Yujiro used these techniques against baki EoS?

      11. Im not sure how this qualifies as "an open field". There are trees and other obstacles everywhere. And beyond that there are tons of buildings and other things like that.

      a)Very vulnerable, not really.

      b) Not really

      c) Fair enough, but this is just more reason on why Yujiro wouldn't use Xiao Lee. 

      And he'll somehow know right away that Ikki is a dude more skilled than him and has a bunch of other shit? Because 1 Madoka would severely handicap Yujiro. The 2nd will be end of the fight.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      To address each point:

      Sorry, in the original post that got eaten, I outlined that the purpose of Sangan was to help Yujiro keep up with any counters or evades Ikki attempts

      DB on the site is accepted as a flat boost (it's probably because of fights like Yujiro vs Baki and Yujiro vs Doppo, but I don't know for sure)

      Okay, sure, but a move with fast acceleration is objectively better than a move with slower acceleration in terms of speed, regardless of the opponent. If Ikki can deal with 0 accel, that's fine, but he can deal with slow accel better than fast accel, even if he can casually deal with both

      Instead of trying to apply real life logic, look at the example of which it's used: it allows Pickle to outsped Dinosaurs like the T-Rex tail that he is either in the same speed tier or considerably slower (depending on whether or not he needs to transform, as it's implied in his fight with Baki that he's only need to transform to kill a T-Rex once)

      Apnea Rush allowed one person of a similar speed to another to completely blitz. Without tanking punches, Hanayama literally couldn't do anything except block. That's a far cry from "not even useful"

      Again, Oliva should be insanely faster with being able to keep up with Baki and Yujiro, and someone comparable to mid NGB characters could tag him even when he was actually trying, not exactly unquantifiable

      Considering all the blitzes amongst people with similar or faster speeds, I seriously doubt that



      Right, except that's not what I said: I said it was a minor speed amp. His AP amp is said to come from his speed amp (the amount of speed he has allows him to hit as hard as he does)

      Seems pretty quantifiable to me, someone this site would list as, at most, Subsonic+ blitzed someone this site has listed as Supersonic+


      It can't not be a speed amp and barely be a speed amp, but it is a speed amp, as Katsumi's only means of hurting Pickle and outspending him. And about it's toll, that doesn't apply to Yujiro, as it is specifically outlined that the damage comes from breaking the sound barrier with your fist (one character thought the damage came from hittting Pickle's hard muscles, but it was explained that it was the sound barrier). Yujiro causally does this twice in his fight with Baki with no backlash

      No, Katsumi wasn't "immensely faster", they both scale to NGB Retsu. Katsumi may have been faster, but four hits before Dorian even reacted is more than "a little faster", but you're free to doubt as you please

      Still highly doubt that with the level of blitzing going on here 

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    • It doesn't help evading, just processing. 

      Yes but if it has no proof of amping speed, it's not a "flat boost" and being treated like that is a mistake. 

      Ok but it doesn't matter. It's like saying "It's harder to deal with 1000m/s than it is to deal with 10m/s when the opponent can deal with FTL". It harder sure but it doesn't matter because he casually deals with much beyond, making this useless/gets countered.

      Killing a T-Rex doesn't need speed though, it needs AP. As for the rest as i said, it's not a speed amp, it's minor at most unless stated to be greater and it's not a speed amp in the literal sense it just allows a faster acceleration than normal starts.

      Ok that's false. First of all Speck is WAY faster than Hanayama. I don't know what speed feat you got where Hanyama actually kept up with him, but no. Second of all, even narration says it's not a speed amp. It's purely attacking without taking breaks, so there is no time for a counter attack, it's not fast, it's just relentless, them being fast is just because Speck is faster than Hanayama.

      Excuse me where did Oliva actually kept up with Baki and Yujiro in speed? His whole shtick is being a tank, pure power and defenses, not a speedster. 

      All of those were scaled speeds, not actual speeds. There is a reason they aren't used for asigning multipliers.




      The wiki treats this as an AP amp, so why is this a speed amp at all?

      Wait i just checked, are you REALLY counting Jack standing there and tanking 20 punches as "blitz"? 1:07 This is not a blitz. Jack was just toying with him, hell Jack even bit him and he didn't even realize it. Everytime that dude landed a hit on Jack it was because Jack was reluctant to even block or dodge. You see him just standing there looking at him as he's getting punched.

      Fair enough on the hand destruction and "the strength of the attack is breaking the sound barrier"....by Supersonic to Hypersonic guys.... And again a normal fast attack is not a stat amp, it's just a fast attack. Otherwise i have stat amp via finger flicking which allows my finger to move faster. It's the same concept but done with the arm.

      Dorian got 1 shot by Retsu, idk how you scale them in speed, in a literal 1 attack fight where Retsu borderline stomped. Katsumi proved to be faster tha Dorian in that very same fight when he made a full rotating motion while being hanged with his kick extended and managed to land it on Dorian where as the latter hadn't even been able to put up his guard at all. And "before he even put up his guard" is completely false, Dorian was recovering from getting kicked in the nose, it was made painfully clear that he was not even looking at Katsumi. So yeah 4 attacks when someone is still recovering are not speed amps.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      @Kg

      2. Argue only those you have feats for, don't get into generalizations. That's the last i'll say on this point.

      3. Ok when you find the scan link it. About reflecting grapples, no, it is the very thing that it can't reflect. He can turn around and do wonky shit to mess with your wrist not reflect it. There is a reason Jack slowly approached his hand trying to grab him, because he knew Gouki would attack there because he knew Aiki couldn't do anything about it. 6:54.

      4. Because even normal Yujiro punches were slamming him against the wall where he couldn't reflect them. Normal punches almost killed him, now what would happen if Yujiro had used his strongest punch with the same effect of not being able to reflect it? 

      Im not saying "no level of AP can get past it", but Yujiro's level of AP only got past it because of the walls around.

      Not the point, the idea is where he is attacked. Slashing was a bisect attempt, a VERY wrong move against someone who would just flip to avoid the damage. Piercing on the other hand, flip all you want you'll never deflect a blow to the center of gravity (the place there where the flippling happens). As for the fencing guy, it was mostly a feat of speed, as Baki willingly turned around to counter attack, doesn't in anyway scale to Xiao Lee.

      8. Nope, not enough. Insinctive reaction is still when you can at least perceive something. At least until proven wrong.

      9. Not really, it has been used as an oppening move, 3 times. And as a last resort twice (even though the 2nd time he had planned to use it from the start he just needed an opening). And ikki has actual precog on top of analytical prediction, he knows exactly when to use it. He's not reluctant to use it, he's just wary of using it as he can't waste it. Anyway i don't want to argue this yet.

      10. Yujiro used these techniques against baki EoS?

      11. Im not sure how this qualifies as "an open field". There are trees and other obstacles everywhere. And beyond that there are tons of buildings and other things like that.

      a)Very vulnerable, not really.

      b) Not really

      c) Fair enough, but this is just more reason on why Yujiro wouldn't use Xiao Lee. 

      And he'll somehow know right away that Ikki is a dude more skilled than him and has a bunch of other shit? Because 1 Madoka would severely handicap Yujiro. The 2nd will be end of the fight.

      2. It's not generalizations. It's basing on real-life statistics. If i say "51% of the human race are males" i'm not generalizing. The same way, most martial arts are effective on combat, SPECIALLY if you're a master at it. I'm not going to make an Excel table with every martial art that exists to prove my point, there's no need to. If a martial art is deemed useless, it shouldn't evolve to the modern world. It's only logical and natural that the effective martial arts are the ones that prevail while the useless ones are forgotten into nonexistence.

      3. Alright. Watch 3:54 and 6:20. 

      4. It was explictly said that the punch itself would have killed Kaku Kaioh. Not the slam on the wall. And even then, enough force CAN bypass Xiao Lee with the force alone. By instance, Yujiro gave Kaku bloody noses before the wall stuff started to happen. There's also that one time Kaku had to dislocate his jaw to avoid damage. 

      Except you are? "First, AP and Durability don't matter against Xiao Lee, drop it."   - Yourself

      Except it doesn't really make a decent difference because the difference between a horizontal cut and a pierce cut isn't as big as the difference between a 10-C and a 7-C ​​​​​​ Actually, all these guys were said to be faster than Baki. He was training for his first fight against his father, who obviously curbstomped him. 

      ​​​​8. 6th sense still stands. And people in Baki can sense auras, when the characters are this strong, their auras become easier to feel. 

      9. I see. However, that depends on context. By instance, did he have previous knowledge on the fights he started with Rasetsu? 

      10. Some, yeah. He also utilizes some techniques in other  fights, but mostly to flex.

      11. Yujiro isn't a doofus. There are very open areas, and if he planned on utilizing Xiao Lee, he'd run for them before using it. That is, if they don't start already on those fields, what isn't specified by SBA afaik.

      a) Yeah, it does, mainly because Yujiro's hairs are fairly short so it means getting in H2H range, specially for someone with Yujiro's size.

      b) Yes? The trick only makes the body rigid for a fraction of a second, thus the attack has to happen in that very short timeframe. w̶t̶f̶ ̶w̶h̶y̶ ̶d̶i̶d̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶K̶a̶k̶u̶ ̶j̶u̶s̶t̶ ̶s̶h̶a̶v̶e̶ ̶h̶i̶s̶ ̶h̶a̶i̶r̶ ̶l̶o̶l̶

      c) With that, i can agree. I don't think he'd use it before realizing he's in true danger.

      What's a Madoka and how it works? As i said previously, Baki characters can sense auras that are indication of not only physical strenght but rather overall strenght (skill, speed, AP, etc)

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    • @KG

      2. Don't assume the martial arts not shown are good by Baki standards.

      3. Do you even know what Aiki is? It's the attack reflection, not the weird thing he does to throw you up. That is just movement. He did that to Jack's bite before even though biting bypassed Aiki. Again grabbing bypasses it.

      4. Because he wouldn't be able to reflect it. Yujiro's punches were dealing damage at all only after he started to slam him into the wall which was specifically stated to be a weakness. If his average punches were doing the slams are you saying his most powerful one wouldn't?

      On these levels. Or on shown levels. Not saying you can throw Kaku Kaioh at 4-A's and have Xiao Lee work.

      Yes because those punches did start to deal damage once they started abusing the weakness of Xiao Lee, same thing for piercing attacks. And it's not a "slash vs piercing" damage contest, it's a mechanic contest. you don't flip from being pierced in your centre of gravity. And about the Baki examples im gonna ask you to stop bringing baki consious movement and equalizing them to natural movement from relaxed muscles. They're literally opposites.

      8. Prove it matters with skill.

      9. On 2 of them yes, but that's why im not arguing "rasetsu opening move". Though precog makes it in character exactly when needed, my point is pls don't argue this. It's not like Yujiro has any answer what so ever to Ikki using magic. Im trying to keep this a purely skill debate.

      10. Some isn't spam everything like there is no tomorrow, but eh, doesn't matter.

      11.

      >Yujiro

      >Running away against a much weaker opponent

      Choose better arguments pls. He's never done this, i can understand this as a complete last resort after seeing he's getting beat up by Ikki, but saying the dude whose capabilities pale in comparison ego and confidence as stated by Baki, running away in a fight to gain advantage is in character at any level is purely false.

      c) When would he ever realize he's in true danger? He didn't use Xiao Lee against offensive Xiao Lee. He did feel he was truly in danger there.

      Madoka is Ikki's attack reflection. You attack him, then you get a slash somewhere in your body cus the energy crossed Ikki's body.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
       

      No, what I meant was that it will help him react to and adjust his attacks to whatever actions Ikki takes

      You'll need to address that in a CRT

      If Yujiro is acting in character, regardless of whether or not it actually makes a difference, if Yujiro is being completely outclassed like you're making this out to be, he's going to try to make a difference in any way possible

      What? When did anyone say killing a T-Rex was a speed thing? I said he outsped a T-Rex. Pickle has a transformation that makes him massively faster, but he only needed to amp to kill a dinosaur once was the point, so while he had the AP, if the thing outspeeds him like how it was shown to in the flashback, Pickle could be Boundless and not kill it.

      1) Where are you getting that Spec was faster and 2) Where does it ever say it's not a speed amp????

      He literally matches Baki's speed constantly in their fight and he keeps up with a casual Yujiro...

      Are we not using accepted speeds for the Vs Battle site?



      Because the speed of the attack is what makes it an amp

      He wasn't even able to retract his arm before the combo, it's obvious that Jack is insanely stronger than him, but the combo itself is clearly an amp. How would a move that amps your combat speed for the duration of the move permanently increase your reaction speed? If anything, Jack biting him without him even being able to react or notice only reaffirms that Jack is considerably faster, yet this basically no name was able to dump out his combo

      This should be CRT'd as well then: Statistics Amplification (Via Mach Fist)

      Dorian DID get oneshot by Retsu... after fighting Suedo, being hospitalized by Doppo, who absolutely annihilated him, jumping out of a several story building with broken kneecaps, and massive blood loss due to slitting his wrists and blowing off Doppo's face with a bomb in his wrist... They are absolutely scaled closely, at the beginning of the series, they stalemate each other (as well as them being Kaiohs, they both have the same master, etc). As for Katsumi v Dorian, I already said Katsumi was faster, but they are absolutely comparable. You literally just said he'd gotten kicked in the nose and couldn't put up his guard, therefore, he would be unable to react...

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    • @Earl

      I'll respond tomorrow because i'm also lazy

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    • KGiffoni wrote: @Earl

      I'll respond tomorrow because i'm also lazy

      Kek, sure thing, know the feel.

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    • @Baki

      Fair enough, though doesn't contribute to speed on attacks so better not mention it.

      Well im asking is there any proof that it amps speed? If there is not then sure I'll make a CRT.

      That's what im saying it won't make a difference. You're amping acceleration here not speed acceleration amp is literally useless if you're opponent has infinite acceleration. Better stick to just speed.

      May need scan on the speed of the trex.

      1. He was consistently landing attacks that hanayama wasn't blocking before. Where is your proof hanayama scales? 2. He says it is the oxygen less attack that athletes use. There is no time for a counter attack. Because he doesn't wait before attacking again. It was never meant or stated to be a speed amp its just attacking for a long time.

      Casual yujiro because casual yujiro is keen on using speed and need scan for both of those.

      The site doesn't allow multipliers off of that.


      Scan on that pls.

      Jack didn't retract his arm dude. He literally had a calm look on his eyes and was looking right at him, I'm serious a dude looking at you as he doesn't move isn't a speed amp. Jack also doesn't move against the finger on throat thing, doesn't mean he blitzed. He just didn't want to move against attacks that were tickling him at most. Your logic could literally be used to say "a kid blitzed a boxer because the boxer couldn't dodge the punch" it's very obvious from reaction when someone couldn't and when he wouldn't.

      Sure.

      Yeah then why are you scaling them? They never fought, gaia was said to be comparable to yujiro too, are you gonna use that to scale their every stat? As for the rest as i said dorian was still recovering from the attack and katsumi was faster. So time to ask you? How do you count as blitzing when he was unable to react because of damage, might as well say blitz cus he kicked an unconscious dude.

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    • BakiHanma18
      BakiHanma18 removed this reply because:
      Test
      18:56, January 7, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Comment eaten, rip smartphone

      Ill ask on the GD thread why it amps everything

      Ill get all the scans you ask for

      Hanayama doesnt normally block anything (Ive got scans to explain). it allows you to amp your combat speed by holding your breath, negating the rhythm created by aligning your movements and breathing

      I dont understand. Speeds on the site are allowed, right?



      Dude visibly damages Jack with Quadruple, but Jack doesn't react. Is that a better example of a blitz? (For context, Quadruple has dura neg)

      NGB Retsu and Dorian are scaled to be extremely similar on this site, Gaia and Yujiro are compared on the manga, very different things. Retsu fought Dorian at the beginning of NGB and they stalemated. Dorian has pain tolerance enough to loop a wire around Doppo's hand while getting smashed in the face. If you actually could react, he likely wouldve done something, regardless of what that something may have been.

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    • So hanayama not blocking everything means Hanayama somehow scales to Pickle in speed? Hanayama not blocking just means that you can't compare the two. As for the amp, no, by holding your breath you reduce the time between each attack, not the speed of each. Breathing would create gaps between attacks, not breathing makes the stop before each attack faster. Back to the point, it's not "faster" it's just "relentless".

      They're allowed for battles, not for multipliers. As calcs have mistakes in them, by doing stuff like taking multipliers off of them, you increase their mistake greatly and other problems arise. Similar reason as to why calc scaling isn't allowed.



      No, Quadruple doesn't have dura neg. And no, he did not blitz. This is Jack before the attack starts, and this is Jack after the attack finishes. So now tell me, are those the reactions of a dude who was heavily damaged by 4 kicks? They're mosquito bites to him, he moving to those doesn't mean he got damaged. He was moving from the punches he felt reluctant to block, doesn't mean they actually damaged him. And this point is further proven false by the fact that after these, Jack still does not take action against this guy and lets him land a blow on his throat too, just for fun because why not.

      When did they stalemate? Retsu and Dorian i mean. Mind linking the fight? I remember no such thing. As for pain tolerance, completely moot when you count in the fact that Dorian was crouching, had closed his eyes and was keeping his hands around his face. He was not gonna take actions in that state, he had his freaking eyes cloes for fuck's sake, how do you expect the dude to react to the kicks?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      So hanayama not blocking everything means Hanayama somehow scales to Pickle in speed? Hanayama not blocking just means that you can't compare the two. As for the amp, no, by holding your breath you reduce the time between each attack, not the speed of each. Breathing would create gaps between attacks, not breathing makes the stop before each attack faster. Back to the point, it's not "faster" it's just "relentless".

      They're allowed for battles, not for multipliers. As calcs have mistakes in them, by doing stuff like taking multipliers off of them, you increase their mistake greatly and other problems arise. Similar reason as to why calc scaling isn't allowed.



      No, Quadruple doesn't have dura neg. And no, he did not blitz. This is Jack before the attack starts, and this is Jack after the attack finishes. So now tell me, are those the reactions of a dude who was heavily damaged by 4 kicks? They're mosquito bites to him, he moving to those doesn't mean he got damaged. He was moving from the punches he felt reluctant to block, doesn't mean they actually damaged him. And this point is further proven false by the fact that after these, Jack still does not take action against this guy and lets him land a blow on his throat too, just for fun because why not.

      When did they stalemate? Retsu and Dorian i mean. Mind linking the fight? I remember no such thing. As for pain tolerance, completely moot when you count in the fact that Dorian was crouching, had closed his eyes and was keeping his hands around his face. He was not gonna take actions in that state, he had his freaking eyes cloes for fuck's sake, how do you expect the dude to react to the kicks?

      I'm severely confused. The two individuals that are comparable in speed are Spec and Hanayama. Spec basically blitzes Hanayama in their fight with Apnea Rush, Pickle doesn't appear for 2 more seasons, and decreasing the time from one hit to the next is literally the description of amping combat speed

      So what would be the proper approach for this situation? Amping this much isn't really something Yujiro does, as he's never really been outspeed before. Of course he would amp if that were the case, but I don't know how to go about it



      Limited Durability Negation via Quadruple Median Line Strike (Targets pressure points and can damage opponents stronger than Katsumi). And no, I didn't say "heavily damaged", I said "visibly damaged", as in when the dude uses it on Jack's body instead of pressure points, it literally buckles his leg and cracks his jaw, to Jack's surprise. I'll link it

      Ill link both the Retsu v Dorian fight and the Doppo vs Dorian fight part 1 where he's able to do a similar feat. He has senses other than sight to use (such as hearing the whistling of the kick through the air, or mitigation of the kick in some way after feeling the impact)

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    • Fuck it, Ikki FRA

      Only and exclusively because Yujiro is in-character, it really pushes him back because he has that huge ego of his that makes him unlikely to utilize his best techniques and all that skill he has. I think he could win, but since it's in-character, Ikki FRA.

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    • Pickle getting blitzed by Hitless Blow and remembering the T-Rex tail 5:20 https://youtu.be/LQdQL919Fo0

      Young Yujiro vs Oliva https://youtu.be/9UtnUQVGlNc

      Oliva fighting a casual adult Yujiro https://youtu.be/qLE0TXyWv5M

      Baki v Oliva (this'll be the longest one) https://youtu.be/6bdncEX8wNA and https://youtu.be/wu23BzrVxWo (if you don't feel like watching the whole thing or you don't have the time, I find 2x speed helps)

      Jack yeeting nobody Kengo at 4:25 https://youtu.be/HC_qxKjLxPE while Jack doesn't actually take on damage, he is visibly affected, yet Kengo uses the combo completely and only after following up with the good old finger-in-the-throat move does Jack hit him with the "no u"

      Retsu v Dorian before Dorian cheats like always https://youtu.be/gDS91iCpmq0 each get an attack, Retsu barely dodged and Dorian barely blocked, with both being fine after

      Dorian v Doppo, Doppo blonds him with his duffle bag, and follows with a kick, while Dorian secretly slips a micron wire around his wrist




      I think that's all the scans, feel free to watch the full vids for any details or context I missed, I tend to miss stuff when rushing to gather scans and info

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    • First of all, they don't scale in speed. Second of all no, he's just deciding not to take breaks between attacks. I can attack you once then attack again after 7 hours. I can also attack once and attack again in a split second. I didn't stat amp, I just decided not to do things in between like breathing taking coffee breaks, monologuing etc. My speed didn't increase im just attacking more often.

      You just don't assign multipliers, given that speed is equalized. If it weren't you can say sth like "can blitz hypersonic guys".



      No no no. It moved his leg, moved his jaw etc. Where did you even get the crack his jaw? Jack got no damage and even after that he didn't move and let him attack again. Back to the point absolutely not. You trying to scale speed amp cus a fodder attacked a top tier who was literally reluctant to block or dodge ain't happening.

      No, I've seen the fight, scaling from hitting a guy that might as well be crying and closed his eyes mid fight is plain stupidity. Just drop it, it's becoming circular.

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    • About Dorian vs retsu no. That was a thrown attack. A very small thing being thrown through blowing. Scaling that to Dorian speed is like saying the speed at which air leaves your mouth is equal to your running speed. And retsu's attack was never a quick one he literally made a flashy move before standing and then attacking. Doesn't somehow scale in speed.

      Jack vs kengo, Jack wasn't affected. He was moved, he wasn't damaged or harmed in any way. He never intended to take any action against those attacks, same as how he doesn't intend to take any action against the throat attack. His jaw was moving from the rush of attacks he didn't get any damage nor did he intend to block or dodge them.

      Yuji vs Oliver. They don't scale for shit. They didn't even fight. The only thing that happened was yuji dodging and attacking Oliver then disappears. How do you scale Oliver speed from that? 2nd fight. Ok so if I'm correct whart you're saying is Oliver scales in speed to a guy who didn't take action until the fist was inches away from his face yet he punched oliver back before that. U serious?

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    • Ikki fra

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    • That's 3 for ikki I believe.

      I didn't even need to get into the techniques ikki can use, just how he can skill anything yuji can do. Neat.

      @Soul

      Type in the op, "amps restricted for ikki". Ikki can already win, with amps it would be a stomp.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      That's 3 for ikki I believe.

      I didn't even need to get into the techniques ikki can use, just how he can skill anything yuji can do. Neat.

      @Soul

      Type in the op, "amps restricted for ikki". Ikki can already win, with amps it would be a stomp.

      Not really, as i said, i think Yujiro would win if bloodlusted. I already know Ikki's main techniques. I'm only voting Ikki because i'm exhausted at arguing and because Yujiro could only win this using his techniques to the maximum potential, what he doesn't do in-character thanks to his immense ego and pride. 


      But yeah i think it's good to restrict Ikki's Rasetsu, seems stompish

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    • You can make a bloodlusted Yujiro vs Ikki after this if you want, i don't mind.

      But yeah this is the reason i avoided arguing Ittou Amps. 

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    • It'd be weird to have two Yujiro vs Ikki matches for bloodlusted/not bloodlusted, not sure if that's allowed, but if it is, i better start working on that OP

      Btw, which Ikki key was being used here? 1st or 2nd?

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    • I mean it's not against the rules.

      2nd key.

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    • Fixed.

      Also, i like how I was busy for a day or two and this thread exploded.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      First of all, they don't scale in speed. Second of all no, he's just deciding not to take breaks between attacks. I can attack you once then attack again after 7 hours. I can also attack once and attack again in a split second. I didn't stat amp, I just decided not to do things in between like breathing taking coffee breaks, monologuing etc. My speed didn't increase im just attacking more often.

      You just don't assign multipliers, given that speed is equalized. If it weren't you can say sth like "can blitz hypersonic guys".



      No no no. It moved his leg, moved his jaw etc. Where did you even get the crack his jaw? Jack got no damage and even after that he didn't move and let him attack again. Back to the point absolutely not. You trying to scale speed amp cus a fodder attacked a top tier who was literally reluctant to block or dodge ain't happening.

      No, I've seen the fight, scaling from hitting a guy that might as well be crying and closed his eyes mid fight is plain stupidity. Just drop it, it's becoming circular.

      Okay, but they do scale in speed, and he's literally taking out any breaks between punches, as in punching faster, which is an amp. You're argument is incredibly different to the actual situation, where Spec goes from being able to punch maybe something like 50x in under 5 seconds to being able to punch 100x in under 5 seconds. He's literally able to do more stuff at the same speed, which would require a speed increase

      If X character hits Y character without X character even having a chance to react, what are we supposed to call that? He has several amps that allow him to do that, so this is important information

      Yeah, and Doppo just moves Dorian... Jack is clearly shocked in that scene, and regardless of the context of the overarching interaction, at that moment, Jack was clearly and undeniably shocked by those hits

      I won't drop the point, as I see no reason to. As far as I'm concerned, the point is valid and I haven't been argued against

      As far as Dorian and Retsu, what are you talking about??? Retsu dodged, his attack wasn't telegraphed at all, yet Dorian could still dodge it, and for as Dorian's attack, unless we want to say that Dorian is actually faster than Retsu, it's a moot point.

      Already addresses that, he was clearly and visibly shocked, unless somehow you're watching a different fight than I am

      Bruh you kill me, I gave you an example of Katsumi doing the same thing to Pickle earlier with Hitless Blow despite Katsumi being massively slower than Pickle, but apparently that's not a speed amp??? As for Yujiro vs Oliva, I'm sorry you don't feel as though they scale in speed, but it's quite obvious from the Baki fight at the very LEAST he's in a casual Yujiro's range. It's unqualifiable how much effort Yujiro is putting forth at any given moment, so who knows, he could've actually put something into the speed of the hit. As for young Yujiro, they are similar speeds as clear as day

      And I'm assuming since Baki vs Oliva wasn't mentioned, you accept that point?

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    • @Earl This speed amp argument seems to be going nowhere, so I'd like to put it on the back burner for now. It would seem the arguments for and against are a lot more than 500 posts, so for now I'd like to talk about other things Yujiro can try, if you're okay with discussing other things?

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    • No im just not gonna answer those anymore. Im trying to tell you you're just taking things out of context, but i do not intend to get into circular arguments. People can vote the side which has the better arguments, im done arguing speed.

      Feel free to bring other things up.

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      No im just not gonna answer those anymore. Im trying to tell you you're just taking things out of context, but i do not intend to get into circular arguments. People can vote the side which has the better arguments, im done arguing speed.

      Feel free to bring other things up.

      Okay, dude. Sounds good to me👌

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    • So, a few questions for Ikki:

      This may sound a bit weird, but is Ikki faster than himself?

      Is his sword physically manifested in this key?

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    • >Is ikki faster than himself?

      Inb4 i bring up him beating 4 Ittou Shura clones in base casually Explain better though.

      And yes it is physically manifested as OP says "material form intetsu".

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      >Is ikki faster than himself?

      </s>Inb4 i bring up him beating 4 Ittou Shura clones in base casually</s> Explain better though.

      And yes it is physically manifested as OP says "material form intetsu".

      Okay, so what I mean by "Is be faster than himself", which after thinking about it is probably the wrong question, is Yujiro has an technique called Udonde where he leaves himself wide open, only to attack someone right before they hit. Would this work to any degree, and if not, why?

      1:40 Explanation of the move  https://youtu.be/MrVghQV8xDQ

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    • That's just dodging.

      He's not leaving himself open, he's just not taking a stance then dodging and counterattacking respectively. Why's that such a big deal?

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      That's just dodging.

      He's not leaving himself open, he's just not taking a stance then dodging and counterattacking respectively. Why's that such a big deal?

      Because he approaches, but the move has 0 openings, so if he's attack, the opponent is going to to get countered

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    • Yes but it's just plain dodging. 

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    • Firephoenixearl wrote:
      Yes but it's just plain dodging. 

      Yes, in the most bare-bones possible sense, it is, as well as a counter

      But how would Ikki deal with it?

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    • Ikki FRA

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    • I stopped paying attention. What are the votes at?

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    • I think 4-0-0 for Ikki. Mine, Ricsi's, Ionliosite's and Earl's.

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    • OK then.

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    • It is 4 but that's because schnee voted.

      I funnily enough didn't vote yet. I just gave arguments, don't plan on voting.

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    • I see. I forgot to count Schnee 

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    • Ikki FRA

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    • 5 for ikki

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    • Ikki FRA

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    • Ikki FRA.

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    • Grace.

      It happened.

      I gave ikki a win without actually voting myself. Noice.

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    • Finally over? With no arguments about how dumb Ikki's skills are? A miracle has occured.

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    • The whole thread is an argument about how dumb Ikki's skill is. The author of the novel wanks him, these feats are bullshit.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      The whole thread is an argument about how dumb Ikki's skill is. The author of the novel wanks him, these feats are bullshit.

      Don't worry guys, once I make Ness VS Ikki Ikki will be no more

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    • Ionliosite wrote: The whole thread is an argument about how dumb Ikki's skill is. The author of the novel wanks him, these feats are bullshit.

      Wait, elaborate.

      Also so I don't come off as just here for derail, Ikki FRA.

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