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  • AKM sama
    AKM sama closed this thread because:
    15:27, January 18, 2020
    • That is damn beautiful.

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    • Good

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    • Noice

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    • Y'all think any cool feats can come from Hatchyack's OG transformation? Looks like he is warping space.

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    • So Frieza can destroy a planet but Gogeta who is far more powerful need to go full power against a meteor. Heroes logic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • Area of Effect

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    • It's a bulshit magic meteor, in the game it even depower the ennemies.

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    • Also you can see Hearts has infused his energy in it.

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    • What thread do you think we'll be at once Super comes back?

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    • My honest guess is 87. They have to adapt the Moro arc eventually. I understand why they’re holding back though. Wait till the Moro arc is finished so that they don’t end up pulling a One Piece and adapting less than a chapter per episode.

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    • How many more chapters do you think the Moro arc will be?

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    • That would not be a bad plan, the anime's job would be a lot easier if they could start by adapting an already made arc instead of using just an outline.

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    • Eh, I hope the anime doesn't adapt the Galatic Prisoner Saga, Toyotaro doesn't deserve that boost to his ego.

      Also, important thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3870035

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      Eh, I hope the anime doesn't adapt the Galatic Prisoner Saga, Toyotaro doesn't deserve that boost to his ego.

      Also, important thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3870035

      I agree, beyond the angel lore that's kinda interesting, it's not worth adapting.

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    • I still think it will. Toyotarou sucks though.

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    • Toyotarou made the Galatic Prisoner Saga himself or did he make it with Toriyama's Notes?

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    • Adem Warlock69 wrote:
      Toyotarou made the Galatic Prisoner Saga himself or did he make it with Toriyama's Notes?

      It's Toyotaro's thing and Toriyama is less involved than in the other arcs but it's still pretty much the same situation as before.

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    • ChocomilkAlex wrote: My honest guess is 87. They have to adapt the Moro arc eventually. I understand why they’re holding back though. Wait till the Moro arc is finished so that they don’t end up pulling a One Piece and adapting less than a chapter per episode.

      But Super has never been a manga adaptation nor should it ever become a manga adaptation.

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    • Did you guys know that Heart’s voice actor from Super Dragon Ball Heros is DIO’s voice actor from JJBA: Stardust Crusaders?

      DIO vs Gogeta anyone? x3

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    • Gogeta vs Hearts was the worst fight I have seen. Goku vs Beerus EP5 is better then seeing a character kick and punch someone a couple of times.

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    • Leaked image of Dragon Ball Super 2

      DBS2-Ep5
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    • ChocomilkAlex wrote:
      I still think it will. Toyotarou sucks though.

      He's been improving with his quality like Vegeta's growth and the introduction of Merus but there's still a lot of flaws

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    • Imagine going to another planet with the other z fighters only to be attacked and nearly killed by one guy but you somehow manage to pull through

      then a few years later you find him beating up your girlfriend, little brother, and Vegeta's son in the middle of nowhere

      poor Gohan

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      Imagine going to another planet with the other z fighters only to be attacked and nearly killed by one guy but you somehow manage to pull through

      then a few years later you find him beating up your girlfriend, little brother, and Vegeta's son in the middle of nowhere

      poor Gohan

      Lol then for that guy to get cloned again just to beat up on your little brother, Vegeta's son, your girlfriend's dad, your dad's best friend and his wife. 

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    • Now get this,

      imagine that guy eventually becomes canon and proceeds to beat the hell out of your dad and vegeta again but ends up having far more potential than you and he also doesn't even like to fight.  

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    • at that point it's better for Gohan cause now he doesn't have to deal with Broly lol

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      at that point it's better for Gohan cause now he doesn't have to deal with Broly lol

      true 

      Gohan is so weak that even a god ki like boost in his reawaken Ultimate form looks like fodder compared to current SSJB Goku 

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    • 'Patiently waits for low 2-C and immeasurable speed Base Goku in 2uper'

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      'Patiently waits for low 2-C and immeasurable speed Base Goku in 2uper'

      I mean, you can argue he already is all that in DBS, it's just a matter of interpretation like most stuff in the tiering systeme once you reach 3-A.

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    • Oh shit I didn't say anything. 

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      'Patiently waits for low 2-C and immeasurable speed Base Goku in 2uper'

      You know, Seth thinks base Goku is SSBE level yet he thinks UI beats Gogeta. 

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      You know, Seth thinks base Goku is SSBE level yet he thinks UI beats Gogeta. 

      Isn't Base Gogeta far more powerful than SSB Goku and Vegeta? What mental gymnastics would one have to do to say that UI is anywhere near comparable?

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    • Saying Goku is SSBE does have some support, but it's really massive outlier and shouldn't be taken seriously. That being said, UI is enough to make Goku jump from 3-A to Low 2-C. Fusion is as well. We don't really know which one is superior in the end. 

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    • Steve Rogers1 wrote:
      Saying Goku is SSBE does have some support, but it's really massive outlier and shouldn't be taken seriously. That being said, UI is enough to make Goku jump from 3-A to Low 2-C. Fusion is as well. We don't really know which one is superior in the end. 

      The jump itself doesn't really mean much to scaling characters when the verse doesn't even acknowledge the difference. Ikari put Broly at Low 2-C. Training for 3 months put Frieza at Low 2-C etc.

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    • MUI Goku has to be possibly low multiversal, a suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger then a GoD and he was still going pretty easy on SSB Kaioken x20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (Them working together was stronger then UI Omen Goku 2nd reveal  as Belmod said he has never seen Jiren reveal more of his power)

      MUI Goku was easily beating Jiren before he broke his limits. 

      Gogeta is low multiversal at Blue, his base was stronger then Blue Goku and Vegeta and the Super Saiyan Blue transformation has to be 100,000x minimum

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      This was discussed before and general consensus is that Whis' statement is referring to FP Base Jiren not his heavily surpressed form. So MUI would only scale slightly above UBW Jiren who is far superior to Base Jiren who is GoD level. Enough for an 'At least' but not quite sufficient for 2-C.

      Unrelated but some rough scaling I did put SSG Gogeta and FP SS Broly, since he'd likely scale above the former at the least, at 6,400,000 times baseline.

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    • 100% Golden
      To this day, I am still salty we never got 100% Golden Frieza in the ToP. You would have expected him to pull this card when he became bloodlusted and attempted to kill Jiren or even for them to have Frieza use it briefly against Broly towards the end of their fight.

      I can't really think of any reason why Frieza wouldn't be able to do it either, considering he still uses 100% Power after his energy training in Hell.

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    • I assume he did it to trick Frost, that shit drains energy like a motherfucker even after his training.

      Besides I think it was implied initially Post Training Freezer didn't need to bulk up to access his full power and that actually hurt his body.

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    • I’ve actually never seen that.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      I’ve actually never seen that.

      It's my first time too btw that was Buu Saga Goku Enel fought XD

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    • The plot for the original one had something to do with Frieza wanting to destroy FUJI TV. 

      inb4 tier 0 DB Threads 

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    • BlastX wrote:

      True, but Frieza could still use it when desperate or needing more power, like (as an example I gave) using it against Jiren when bloodlusted. He explains 100% should be used at the start of a fight to finish it quickly due to the strain, after all.

      I find it difficult to understand how exactly Frieza could still tap into his bulked-up 100% if he could use its power without going through that entire motion. I don't even think it's really his '100%'. When he was teaching Frost, it seemed almost like the implication was that it was a technique that enhanced their power like Roshi's MAX Power or the Saiyans with Grade 2 and 3 Super Saiyan.

      When Frost approaches Frieza, Frieza explains he could achieve Golden with 'training' but then says 'maybe not Golden' and goes 100%, claiming Frost can at least be capable of that much. There is a pretty clear connection here, in the conversation, that 100% is something that is achieved by training like it's a technique.

      Overall, the scene with Frieza and Frost has given me the impression that it's an enhancement of their base form, rather than the maximum power of their base form.

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    • Did it appear in the manga TOP?

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    • No, it doesn't happen in the manga canon but if I recall correctly, Frieza scales to CSSB Goku and is hyped up as turning the tides against Jiren, so Manga Frieza might be relatively stronger than Anime Frieza.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      No, it doesn't happen in the manga canon but if I recall correctly, Frieza scales to CSSB Goku and is hyped up as turning the tides against Jiren, so Manga Frieza might be relatively stronger than Anime Frieza.

      Plotwise lol but the Manga scaling can still be wonky with Berserker Kale bodying Frieza and Gohan stalemating a much stronger Kefla

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    • Canon Gogeta Soul Manipulation?

      Canon Broly Soul Manip Resistance?

      F0b477f65deb1fca584efdb5542e665b
       
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    • As far as we know, that’s just an ordinary attack– Toeiverse version ain’t canon.

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    • Quibster wrote:
      As far as we know, that’s just an ordinary attack– Toeiverse version ain’t canon.

      Normally I'd agree but I feel that the intention was clear that this was the same attack (IMO).

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      Plotwise lol but the Manga scaling can still be wonky with Berserker Kale bodying Frieza and Gohan stalemating a much stronger Kefla

      Depends, Frieza claims that he could defeat Kale and Gohan claims Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him in the Moro arc, and we know Frieza should be stronger than either of them based on Broly scaling.

      Regardless, Frieza is firmly GoD-tier in the manga (due to Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe and both Goku and Frieza being around his level) but doesn't have much evidence for being firmly GoD-tier in the anime.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      AwkguyDB wrote:

      Plotwise lol but the Manga scaling can still be wonky with Berserker Kale bodying Frieza and Gohan stalemating a much stronger Kefla

      Depends, Frieza claims that he could defeat Kale and Gohan claims Goku and Vegeta are stronger than him in the Moro arc, and we know Frieza should be stronger than either of them based on Broly scaling.

      Regardless, Frieza is firmly GoD-tier in the manga (due to Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe and both Goku and Frieza being around his level) but doesn't have much evidence for being firmly GoD-tier in the anime.

      Freeza isn’t GoD Tier in the manga beerus simply said Vegeta could be a candidate not oh he could be a GoD in another universe Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn’t shit to the GoDs Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently

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    • Quibster wrote:
      As far as we know, that’s just an ordinary attack– Toeiverse version ain’t canon.

      It was clearly a canonisation of the stardust breaker here, just like the movie canonised Broly and Gogeta.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:
      MUI Goku has to be possibly low multiversal, a suppressed Jiren was stated to be stronger then a GoD and he was still going pretty easy on SSB Kaioken x20 Goku and SSBE Vegeta (Them working together was stronger then UI Omen Goku 2nd reveal  as Belmod said he has never seen Jiren reveal more of his power)

      MUI Goku was easily beating Jiren before he broke his limits. 

      Gogeta is low multiversal at Blue, his base was stronger then Blue Goku and Vegeta and the Super Saiyan Blue transformation has to be 100,000x minimum

      Nah, that conversation was about Jiren's full-power otherwise it wouldn't make sense. And the dialogue alludes to it:

      Other Kaioshin: The willpower to control that with just his glare, and I sense a far higher power within him.

      Whis: It appears he's at the limit of his limit.  Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power. 

      A "far higher power" can be sensed within him, and that is what makes him stronger. 

      Full-Power Jiren~GoD level>>>>>FT arc SSB Vegetto>>Merged Zamasu>110 Jiren>>SSBKKx20 Goku 

      is the case in my opinion. Fusion should be a rather obscene power increase, and Jiren's full-power needs to be the power being referenced in the conversation for any of this to make sense. Otheriwse, everybody after episode 110 is GoD level. 

      Planck69 wrote:
      MonzyMonz wrote:
      This was discussed before and general consensus is that Whis' statement is referring to FP Base Jiren not his heavily surpressed form. So MUI would only scale slightly above UBW Jiren who is far superior to Base Jiren who is GoD level. Enough for an 'At least' but not quite sufficient for 2-C. Unrelated but some rough scaling I did put SSG Gogeta and FP SS Broly, since he'd likely scale above the former at the least, at 6,400,000 times baseline.


      How do you come up with this 6.4M figure?


      Zamasu Chan wrote:
      Zamasu Chan wrote:
      'Patiently waits for low 2-C and immeasurable speed Base Goku in 2uper'

      You know, Seth thinks base Goku is SSBE level yet he thinks UI beats Gogeta. 

      That guy is insane. 
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    • AwkguyDB wrote: Canon Gogeta Soul Manipulation?

      Canon Broly Soul Manip Resistance?

      F0b477f65deb1fca584efdb5542e665b
       

      Apparently they only did that to make it look cool and bring nostalgia back. The attack acts and is different that the one from Toeiverse, and until we get a direct confirmation, we can't confirm if it has the same effects because it simply explodes like an ordinary ki blast.

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    • PFM18 wrote:


      How do you come up with this 6.4M figure?

      Let's assume that Jiren is 4x baseline while heavily suppressed as a safe estimate. UIO1 could somewhat keep up with him. Post-UIO2 SSB Goku is even stronger than that. And we know that the zenkai from the Omens is around 20x since he goes from still being far inferior to Jiren after UIO1 as a SSB KKx20 to somewhat keeping up with his significantly raised power as SSB after UIO2. So a hypothetical Post UIO3 SSB Goku would be 80x baseline at a minimum. Factoring in the boost from the actual UI would have Post-ToP SSB Goku at 1600x baseline at the least. 

      Base Gogeta was keeping up with SS Broly better than SSB Goku and Vegeta so he would be about 3200 times baseline at base. Assuming that SSG is a 5X multiplier, we have SSG Gogeta and by extension FP SS Broly (though he is somewhat stronger than this) at:

      3200 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 5 = 6,400,000 times baseline.

      Yeeeaah, it's pretty bullsh*t scaling but the best I could come up with after sleeping for only 2 hours. Could probably use reworking.

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    • I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

      What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?

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    • Tipper17 wrote:

      Freeza isn’t GoD Tier in the manga beerus simply said Vegeta could be a candidate not oh he could be a GoD in another universe

      True, but Beerus explicitly says in other universes, which implies Universe 7 has higher standards/requirements to replace Beerus as a GoD. You could claim it's him praising Vegeta while sparing his own ego, but we pretty clearly see that Beerus is way above the other GoDs in the manga.

      Goku who was equal to vegeta admitted he wasn’t shit to the GoDs

      Too lazy to verify, will assume this is accurate.

      Even if you consider this claim, the gap is still much smaller (as far as we are aware) than the anime, considering there is no such thing as a GoD power up like GoD Toppo present in the manga. There is also no claim by Beerus, in the anime, that Vegeta would be a candidate in OTHER universes or similar.

      So, while I can't claim Frieza is GoD-tier (I remembered Beerus claiming Vegeta could be a GoD in any other universe, which is what I based that claim on) I can certainly claim Manga Frieza is still relatively much closer to that level than Anime Frieza.

      Freeza being stronger than either is baseless due to how strong goku and vegeta have gotten since than and currently

      I am comparing Manga Frieza and Anime Frieza and their relative power scaling. Frieza hasn't even appeared once in the Moro arc and there is no anime adaptation of the Moro arc, so I'm comparing them based on the ToP arcs and Broly film.

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

      What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?

      Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.

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    • @Zamasu Chan

      I see, seems accurate

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      ArgosaxDespair wrote:

      Zamasu Chan wrote: I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

      What was the reasoning behind 500,000x?

      Base Gogeta > SSBE and a heavily lowballed SSB multiplier.

      Base Gogeta isn't above SSBE. That form doesn't exist in the movie and we never saw him shown such a feat on this level.

      True low ball for Blue Gogeta is 8,000x actually scaling upward from SSB Goku. Dunno how far above the baseline Blue Goku is.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      Base Gogeta isn't above SSBE. That form doesn't exist in the movie and we never saw him shown such a feat on this level.

      True low ball for Blue Gogeta is 8,000x actually scaling upward from SSB Goku. Dunno how far above the baseline Blue Goku is.

      Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was doing just as well against both Anilaza and later on FP Base Jiren as SSBE Vegeta (albeit both were barely doing much to the latter) during the ToP. Consider that, the zenkai boosts from the third Omen and true UI and the three month training that would have make him even stronger. Now consider how Ikari Broly was keeping up with SSB Goku and the fact that Gogeta was capable of holding his own against SS Broly who's at least 40 times stronger than before.

      Base Gogeta is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta, going by scaling (which is insane to be honest).

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    • Thats a really good point 

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      Thats a really good point 

      Thanks. Though what do you think of the rough scaling of Gogeta I did? Too high or too low?

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    • Planck69 wrote:
      AwkguyDB wrote:
      Thats a really good point 
      Thanks. Though what do you think of the rough scaling of Gogeta I did? Too high or too low?

      I agree with most of it especially Base Gogeta > SSJBE. On top of which this is a Broly who got basically stronger while fighting remember he's fought Frieza for a whole hour. So logically speaking since Base Broly could jump from under Base Vegeta to surpassing SSJ Vegeta in a matter of minutes and from weaker than SSJG Goku to match SSJB blow for blow with Ikari, I think it's safe to say that Broly as a SSJ was getting stronger as he was pounding the mess out of Frieza. 

      I guess the only thing I would say is SSJB Goku was still weaker than SSJBE Vegeta in the ToP because he still needed burst of Kaioken in order to keep up. 

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      Post-ToP SSB Goku is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta (if the zenkai boosts I estimated are anything to go by). And I just now realized that my scaling puts FP Base Jiren below FP SS Broly quite significantly. Have you anythng to say about the matter?

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    • what do you think about Goku statement that compare broly to beerus

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    • Lavtop wrote:
      what do you think about Goku statement that compare broly to beerus

      It's...difficult. By all intents and purposes, Broly is far above an average GoD with scaling and feats. The statement is technically valid in that Broly is definitely stronger than Beerus.

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    • is Post ToP SSB KKx20 Goku anywhere near Beerus

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    • Nope IMO

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote:
      is Post ToP SSB KKx20 Goku anywhere near Beerus

      It's implied that Goku is nearing the level of GoDs by the Broly saga.

      Conversely, Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was slightly pushing Jiren while the latter was showing a hint of his true power. He then fights a few more opponents (most notably Anilaza) and finally starts fighting and getting easily handled by FP Base Jiren. Then there's UIO3 which would give him a 20 times power increase like the previous Omens as I established earlier (feel free to disagree though) and the UI which would give him another boost on top of that. So immediately after the tournament, Goku is hundreds of times stronger than the hint of the full power of a GoD as a SSB.

      When you factor in the three months of training afterwards, SSB KKx20 Goku would be far above thousands of times the power needed to slightly push an average GoD and keep up with a newborn one. Goku by this time should be pretty close IMO.

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    • IMO 

      FP Base Jiren should be exactly as Whis described in his statement of the mortal who surpasses a GoD. Burning Warrior Jiren is much stronger than his Base and MUI Goku should compare. Broly as a SSJ should scale imo to be higher than FP Base Jiren but lower than BW Jiren until he taps into LSSJ or FPSSJ against Gogeta. 

      My scaling chain goes like

      SSJB Gogeta > LSSJ Broly >= MUI Goku >= BW Jiren > SSJ Broly > FP Jiren = UIO3 Goku >= Top Tier GoDs > SSJBs of the Broly Movie > SSJBE Vegeta = SSJBKKx 20 Post-UIO2 Goku  

      this is based on what we have been shown in the anime that makes the most sense to me honestly I know it doesn't agree with the tier placement of the site but most of us agree that the tier placement is...........off the mark...for better words.

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    • OH SHOOT 

      I just rewatched and I see why SSJB Goku rivals SSJBE Vegeta XD so then

      WAIT doesn't episode 131 prove  SSJ Goku > SSJG Vegeta? LOL

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      OH SHOOT 

      I just rewatched and I see why SSJB Goku rivals SSJBE Vegeta XD so then

      WAIT doesn't episode 131 prove  SSJ Goku > SSJG Vegeta? LOL

      Honestly, I feel like Goku being stronger than Vegeta should be obvious by now. His regular SSB gets to the point of keeping up with a form that was comparable, if not superior to Goku's previous SSB KKx20 during the same tournament. Then we see him do far better than SSG Vegeta against Broly, who was stronger than when he fought the former, as a Super Saiyan and Broly was also growing stronger to boot. 

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    • I mean the move kinda implies Base Goku >= SSG Vegeta.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      I just rewatched and I see why SSJB Goku rivals SSJBE Vegeta XD so then

      huh?

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      I mean the move kinda implies Base Goku >= SSG Vegeta.

      This makes sense but I feel it's safer to just go with Goku being far stronger than Vegeta for now. Otherwise we end up with FP SSJ Broly being billions of times baseline which I'm a bit uncomfortable with .

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    • AKM sama wrote:
      AwkguyDB wrote:

      I just rewatched and I see why SSJB Goku rivals SSJBE Vegeta XD so then

      huh?

      Sorry couldn't finish my thought because the idea of Episode 131 with Base Goku taking on Jiren making sense with SSJ Goku > SSJG Vegeta in th movie 

      I meant to say "...so then I agree with your scaling."

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    • Planck69 wrote:
      Peter1129 wrote:
      I mean the move kinda implies Base Goku >= SSG Vegeta.
      This makes sense but I feel it's safer to just go with Goku being far stronger than Vegeta for now. Otherwise we end up with FP SSJ Broly being billions of times baseline which I'm a bit uncomfortable with .

      Thats just scary. 

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    • When did SSB Goku ever match SSBE Vegeta?

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      Thats just scary. 

      Actually, let's see what would happen. Going with my previous lowball for Super Saiyan God, Goku would be 2000 times stronger than Vegeta. The latter was around 80 times baseline Low 2-C by the end of the ToP as a SSBE (I'll assume that he would be on par with an immediate Post-UIO2 SSB KKx20). He should have gotten his SSB to that level in those 3 months of training (not the craziest gains in such a short amount of time).

      So Broly Saga SSB Goku would be 160,000 times baseline. Base Gogeta would be this strong at the very least. Going again with FP SSJ Broly being far superior to SSG Gogeta, that leaves us with:

      160,000 x 50 x 2 x 4 x 5= 3,200,000,000 times baseline.

      Huh, what do you know?

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    • That's not even that bad. Like when DBS first ended I messed up the scaling a bit and accidentally got something like a couple billion to trillion times baseline Low 2-C. But after looking back at it at most the strongest DBS Low 2-Cs should be in the million to billion times baseline if we assume all the other transformations that don't have an accepted multiplier on the site (SS2, SS3 and SSG) is just 2x and Goku is vastly stronger than Vegeta in the Broly Saga.

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    • Planck69 wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:

      Snip

      Post-UIO2 SSB Goku was doing just as well against both Anilaza and later on FP Base Jiren as SSBE Vegeta (albeit both were barely doing much to the latter) during the ToP. Consider that, the zenkai boosts from the third Omen and true UI and the three month training that would have make him even stronger. Now consider how Ikari Broly was keeping up with SSB Goku and the fact that Gogeta was capable of holding his own against SS Broly who's at least 40 times stronger than before.

      Base Gogeta is definitely stronger than ToP SSBE Vegeta, going by scaling (which is insane to be honest).

      Goku didn't get any boost from achieving 3rd Omen and UI we have no proof of that. Goku and Vegeta are comparable, meaning Blue vegeta should relative to Blue Goku and Base Gogeta scale to that level.

      Blue Goku was goin in and out of his Kaio-ken and he didn't do any better than Vegeta, heck, Jiren was actually more impressed with Vegeta than he was with Goku despite the former fighting him with a x20 Kaioken.

      I don't like to creat headcanon to justify my narrtive. Blue Goku in broly is stronger than first Omen Goku and that's all we know.

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    • NO! 17 was having trouble with base Toppo.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote: It appears that Base Jiren hit SSJBE Vegeta with an attack so powerful it knocked him out of SSJBE meanwhile Jiren charged up an even stronger attack against SSJBKK Goku and it only knocked him back down to Blue. 

      That might be relevant to the argument. Also can we at least give 17 an applaud for taking an attack that was meant for SSJBE Vegeta?

      Jiren knocks out Goku out of Blue with a casual kick BEFORE he even powered up. Not really an argument.

      No. #17 is weaker than Base Toppo.

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    • That's not an argument. We also see 17 fighting equally with both of them in the same scene, it doesn't mean all of them are equal. It just means Jiren used more power against SSBE Vegeta than he did against SSB Goku. Or it means a minor inconsistency, like the one where all the fighters who were at unequal levels were fighting Anilaza. SSBKKx20 Goku = SSBE Vegeta.

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    • Didn't Vegeta heavily drain his power when using Final Explosion? It could just be argued that he had less energy to maintain SSBE at the time than Goku had to maintain SSB.

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    • Not to mention the attack Jiren used against Goku didn't even hit his body head on.

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    • Jiren was also more impressed by Vegeta's attacks judging by his comments through the fights.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      Didn't Vegeta heavily drain his power when using Final Explosion? It could just be argued that he had less energy to maintain SSBE at the time than Goku had to maintain SSB.

      Literally Jiren goes FP at the start of Episode 127.  Meaning Jiren Ep 127 > Anything in episodes prior. Why would he power up if U7 was weaker than when he fought them before?

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    • ...and why would Goku, Vegeta and 17 suddenly be so much more powerful that it would warrant Jiren needing to power up? Goku and 17 have no impetus or indication of it. Only Vegeta would have grown any stronger (his power being stated to rise against Toppo) but this is contradicted by Vegeta nearly dying from Final Explosion and being knocked out of SSBE, when Goku wasn't knocked out of SSB.

      In the video you link, Jiren even specifically notes Vegeta is wounded. 17, who spent the entire fight against Toppo focusing on evasion and unable to do a damned thing, felt the need to even block an attack for SSBE Vegeta. 17 even intercepted Jiren's blow, that Vegeta couldn't properly react to, from a further distance.

      Jiren was even fighting SSB Goku and 17 at the same time that SSBE Vegeta was fighting him, he didn't even show any surprise or difficulty until Goku approached him from behind, and he easily knocked SSBE Vegeta away to deal with Goku, who went KK.

      If you pay even the slightest hint of attention in the fight, it's blatant that SSBE Vegeta was constantly on the losing end of the fight, that 17 felt compelled to intercept and block blows for Vegeta and that KK Goku Blue was pushing and fighting Jiren much harder than Vegeta was.

      The only hint of respect or surprise Jiren displays towards Vegeta's strength, was him stating he 'I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo' and that's it.

      Ultimately, 17 and Goku were far more impressive than Vegeta against the powered up Jiren, have way better feats and didn't have their wounds or power drain be explicitly stated as a concern in-universe in the context of this fight.

      Now, I'm not claiming for a second that KK Goku Blue is SUDDENLY stronger than SSBE Vegeta or that 17 should scale anywhere close to Post-UIS2 Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Fact of the matter is, Vegeta was heavily drained and injured and this fight was filled to the brim with absurd outliers.

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    • Cryo went text walls mod at last.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:
      ...and why would Goku, Vegeta and 17 suddenly be so much more powerful that it would warrant Jiren needing to power up? Goku and 17 have no impetus or indication of it. Only Vegeta would have grown any stronger (his power being stated to rise against Toppo) but this is contradicted by Vegeta nearly dying from Final Explosion and being knocked out of SSBE, when Goku wasn't knocked out of SSB.

      In the video you link, Jiren even specifically notes Vegeta is wounded. 17, who spent the entire fight against Toppo focusing on evasion and unable to do a damned thing, felt the need to even block an attack for SSBE Vegeta. 17 even intercepted Jiren's blow, that Vegeta couldn't properly react to, from a further distance.

      Jiren was even fighting SSB Goku and 17 at the same time that SSBE Vegeta was fighting him, he didn't even show any surprise or difficulty until Goku approached him from behind, and he easily knocked SSBE Vegeta away to deal with Goku, who went KK.

      If you pay even the slightest hint of attention in the fight, it's blatant that SSBE Vegeta was constantly on the losing end of the fight, that 17 felt compelled to intercept and block blows for Vegeta and that KK Goku Blue was pushing and fighting Jiren much harder than Vegeta was.

      The only hint of respect or surprise Jiren displays towards Vegeta's strength, was him stating he 'I can see why you were able to defeat Toppo' and that's it.

      Ultimately, 17 and Goku were far more impressive than Vegeta against the powered up Jiren, have way better feats and didn't have their wounds or power drain be explicitly stated as a concern in-universe in the context of this fight.

      Now, I'm not claiming for a second that KK Goku Blue is SUDDENLY stronger than SSBE Vegeta or that 17 should scale anywhere close to Post-UIS2 Goku and SSBE Vegeta. Fact of the matter is, Vegeta was heavily drained and injured and this fight was filled to the brim with absurd outliers.

      I'm not disagreeing with you with the fact that Vegeta wasn't much of an issue for Jiren than say Goku. But what I want to point out is that Vegeta, while wounded, still manage to at least produce power that was comparable to when he fought Toppo.

      Jiren even commented:
      Dc4wxr3-a730af2d-c32b-4939-8397-8661cccd77f6

      ​​

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    • ^This pretty much confirms Vegeta tried to hit Jiren with the same amount of force as he did against Toppo and Jiren telling Vegeta that this power is still not enough. 

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      But SSJFP Broly is barely stronger than Beerus, why is he so high there?

      Btw I don't know why you have DBS Broly SSB Goku stronger than Blue Evolution Vegeta, nothing supports he got 20x stronger from Post ToP to DBS Broly.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      That doesn't mean anything. If someone became much weaker due to energy drain and damage, but could still fight at that level (Around SSB-level), then Jiren could still judge that, hey, this guy's power at its peak could defeat Toppo.

      Claiming that Vegeta's power was 'comparable to when he fought Toppo' also wouldn't function as justification for how Vegeta beat him. Vegeta had to use Final Explosion, draining much of his power and having the risk of death, to overpower and defeat Toppo. Time and again in the franchise, we've clearly seen that Ki techniques amplify the power of the user, like Final Flash, Super Kamehameha, etc and the power of Final Explosion was enough to blow Majin Buu into pieces.

      Overall, claiming Vegeta is fighting at that level (when 126 and 127 both completely contradict it) based on such a vague statement is silly, in my opinion.

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    • ?

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      ?

      Meh, i see the dragon ball inspiration but the whole paralels between characters don't work at all, the MC is far from being like Goku.

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    • It could probably be a verse added to the series.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      CryoTheMayo wrote:
      Didn't Vegeta heavily drain his power when using Final Explosion? It could just be argued that he had less energy to maintain SSBE at the time than Goku had to maintain SSB.

      Literally Jiren goes FP at the start of Episode 127.  Meaning Jiren Ep 127 > Anything in episodes prior. Why would he power up if U7 was weaker than when he fought them before?

      Wtf? No he didn't? What is your basis for that? Jiren got gut punched super hard by 3rd UI Omen, before powering up and overpowering Goku, forcing him into actual UI. Jiren's full-power was not shown until AT LEAST 129, though you could argue it wasn't until the final sequence of 129.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: I had SSB Gogeta at 500,000x baseline at best. What sorcery is this?

      I am dumb. What exactly do you guys mean by "baseline"?

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      I am dumb. What exactly do you guys mean by "baseline"?

      The minimum power requirement for a tier, which in this case would be Infinite Zamasu for DBS Low 2-Cs. 

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
       

      PFM18 wrote:

      I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.

      I doubt it, Jiren isn't the type to take order from Belmod to the extent he'd just go full power from a 'hurry up !'

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      Wtf? No he didn't? What is your basis for that? Jiren got gut punched super hard by 3rd UI Omen, before powering up and overpowering Goku, forcing him into actual UI. Jiren's full-power was not shown until AT LEAST 129, though you could argue it wasn't until the final sequence of 129.

      Dude, he went full power when fighting the remaining U7 fighters at Ep. 127. At least, that's what it looks like here. Make of that what you will.

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    • Planck69 wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      Wtf? No he didn't? What is your basis for that? Jiren got gut punched super hard by 3rd UI Omen, before powering up and overpowering Goku, forcing him into actual UI. Jiren's full-power was not shown until AT LEAST 129, though you could argue it wasn't until the final sequence of 129.

      Dude, he went full power when fighting the remaining U7 fighters at Ep. 127. At least, that's what it looks like here. Make of that what you will.

      No, he does A power-up, you can't just arbitrarily assume it is his full-power. The 127 level got bodied by 3rd Omen, then he goes on to have a slight edge over 3rd Omen.

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    • Planck69 wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      I am dumb. What exactly do you guys mean by "baseline"?

      The minimum power requirement for a tier, which in this case would be Infinite Zamasu for DBS Low 2-Cs. 

      ....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      ....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

      Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:

      The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

      Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;

      4 x 4 x 4 x 1.5= 96 times baseline.

      Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;

      96 x 2 x 40 / 4= 1920 times baseline.

      So Gogeta Blue would be about:

      1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

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    • Planck69 wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      ....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

      Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:

      The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

      Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;

      4 x 4 x 4 x 1.5= 96 times baseline.

      Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;

      96 x 2 x 40 / 4= 1920 times baseline.

      So Gogeta Blue would be about:

      1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

      bro are you serious??

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      bro are you serious??

      Yes.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote: My scaling chain goes like

      SSJB Gogeta > LSSJ Broly >= MUI Goku >= BW Jiren > SSJ Broly > FP Jiren = UIO3 Goku >= Top Tier GoDs > SSJBs of the Broly Movie > SSJBE Vegeta = SSJBKKx 20 Post-UIO2 Goku  

      There is no evidence if SSJB in the Broly movie is stronger than SSBE Vegeta from TOP

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote:

      AwkguyDB wrote: Canon Gogeta Soul Manipulation?

      Canon Broly Soul Manip Resistance?

      F0b477f65deb1fca584efdb5542e665b
       

      Apparently they only did that to make it look cool and bring nostalgia back. The attack acts and is different that the one from Toeiverse, and until we get a direct confirmation, we can't confirm if it has the same effects because it simply explodes like an ordinary ki blast.

      Gogeta smiled after Broly survived the soul punisher, which is basically showing “oh he is not a bad guy”

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    • Goku Base > Vegeta Base

      There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

      Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

      Imo my scaling would be:

      Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      Omegas03 wrote:
       

      PFM18 wrote:

      I am sure Jiren went FP (talking about Base) when Belmod told him to defeat Goku once for all or when he powered up soo much that his pressure was going to kill all his universe members in the spectator seats, that was Ep 128 IIRC but he definitely wasn't FP at 127 or when he fought the Trio.

      I doubt it, Jiren isn't the type to take order from Belmod to the extent he'd just go full power from a 'hurry up !'

      Jiren took order from Belomod like 3 times during the tournament.

      1-Belmod was the one who told Jiren to go after Goku in the first place in episode 127.

      2-He was the one who told Jiren to finish Goku once and for all in episode 129.

      3-He told him to knock out Goku in episode 130 despite Jiren not approving of such method.

      Yeah the the writers turned him into a jerk in last few episodes of the ToP but Jiren never stroke me as the disrespectful type before. Both Toppo and Belmod outrank actually.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote: Goku Base > Vegeta Base

      There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

      Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

      Imo my scaling would be:

      Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

      JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.

      There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.

      There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

      Is your only argument seriously that the plot demands it and therefore it shall be? There's no way that Beerus would still be stronger than Jiren and Goku at this point without being able to go to town on all of the GoDs with minimal effort. Not to mention how Belmod is already implied to be on par with if not stronger than Beerus. There's also the various sources that imply that Goku is above Beerus (whether this is UI or Third Omen they're talking about, I'm not sure).

      The story being better is no argument for the tiering of a character. 

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    • Yeah? Beerus is a major character in DBS and have been Goku and Vegeta's superior for years now. Jiren is likely just a one off antagonist which Goku already has already beaten.

      >There's no way that Beerus would still be stronger than Jiren and Goku at this point without being able to go to town on all of the GoDs with minimal effort.

      Not really.

      > Not to mention how Belmod is already implied to be on par with if not stronger than Beerus

      From Whiss teasing Beerus about it, which Beerus denined and said hand to hand combat are different and Whiss did not deny that.

      > There's also the various sources that imply that Goku is above Beerus (whether this is UI or Third Omen they're talking about, I'm not sure).

      There is only 2 source that comapred Goku and Beerus that I am ware of, DBH:World mission and that one magazine page.

      1-The magazine promo said that UI Goku is possibly stronger than Beerus, which would imply that base Jiren is way weaker than Beerus because UI Goku was schooling him hard.

      2-The other is DBH; World Mission. IIRC Whiss mentioned that UI Goku may have a good chance against Beerus in that form but that's it.

      The show still shy away from even mentioning the idea of Goku surpassed Beerus. You are kidding yourself if you think Goku could pull out UI and one-shot Beerus with it if they ever have a rematch

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    • It really depends on how strong Belmod is compared to Beerus.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      MonzyMonz wrote: Goku Base > Vegeta Base

      There is no way that Base Goku is stronger then SSJ Vegeta or God Vegeta, if that was true then there would be a statement about Goku being levels beyond Vegeta, and SSJBE is 20x SSJB.

      Broly is weaker then Jiren, Broly is possibly stronger then Beerus and Jiren is stronger then all the GoDs in his base.

      Imo my scaling would be:

      Gogeta Blue > UI Goku > Jiren (Enraged) > UI Goku (when he first appeared) > Jiren (Base) > LSSJ Broly = UI Omen Goku (3rd sign) > Strongest GoD > SSJBE Vegeta (ToP) = SSJBKK x20 Goku (Post UIO2) >= SSJBs in the movie

      JIREN .IS. ONLY. STRONGER. THAN. BELMOOD.

      There is absolutely no way Goku would surpass Beerus without the story mentioning it after he was a goal point for such a long time.

      1ygLBc0
      Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      Again, you're basing this all of the fact that the narrative would flow better in your eyes. Base Jiren is stronger than a GoD. UI Goku was completely stomping Jiren and proceeded to beat him when the latter had gotten a massive power boost. There's no reason to assume that Beerus is somehow insanely stronger than the average GoD to the point that he would stomp some of his brethren beyond "It fits with the story".

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    • 1-The text in that manga guidebook is vague, it uses the word "may" so it's not really any different than what we know from the anime. Not to mention the manga itself "again" never make such compassion or statement

      2-Herms alrady confirmed that magazine was talking about complete UI Goku and not the omen version.

      Magazine and promo pictures are pretty worthless as evidence. I can bring you right now 4-5 sources that described Broly's power as the strongest enemy and being above GoD as well which will invalid all Jiren hype cuz Broly is just "possibly" stronger than Beerus.

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    • Planck69 wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:

      Again, you're basing this all of the fact that the narrative would flow better in your eyes. Base Jiren is stronger than a GoD. UI Goku was completely stomping Jiren and proceeded to beat him when the latter had gotten a massive power boost. There's no reason to assume that Beerus is somehow insanely stronger than the average GoD to the point that he would stomp some of his brethren beyond "It fits with the story".

      1-Not every GoD is the same. Toppo is a GoD and he's vastly inferior to Beerus.

      2-Jiren did NOT get a majot boost. He went from barely keeping up with UI Goku to barely beating him.

      This wiki does not approve of such scaling either, if the boost Jiren got from his rage form was even 2x, he would be on the same tier as Gogeta Blue right now.

      3-You are missing the point, Beerus is not insanly stronger than other GoDs, neither is Jiren for that matter

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      1-Not every GoD is the same. Toppo is a GoD and he's vastly inferior to Beerus.

      2-Jiren did NOT get a majot boost. He went from barely keeping up with UI Goku to barely beating him.

      This wiki does not approve of such scaling either, if the boost Jiren got from his rage form was even 2x, he would be on the same tier as Gogeta Blue right now.

      3-You are missing the point, Beerus is not insanly stronger than other GoDs, neither is Jiren for that matter

      1. OK. Not sure why you bring him up since he's clearly shown to be inferior to your average GoD (likely due to still being a candidate or just having Hakai energy and not the raw power).

      2. OK. Again, that's still means UI Goku>>Base Jiren>Belmod. 

      3. Refer to number 2 and your own post. Beerus isn't above other GoDs to the point of making jokes of them in a fight and neither is Base Jiren. The latter is inferior to a more powerful form of himself that gets beaten by UI Goku. Therefore, he's far enough above a GoD that we can say with certainty that UI Goku is stronger than Beerus.

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    • 1-No. Belmod said Toppo is not different than a GoD in that state, take that statment the way you like.

      2-You might wanna take out that extra ">" because Goku did one shot base Jiren so the different between them was likely less than 50%.

      3-No.This is just you missing the point again. PTSD Jiren being a little stronger than base Jiren who is only stronger than belmod doesn't mean his rage form will make a joke out of them.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      1-No. Belmod said Toppo is not different than a GoD in that state, take that statment the way you like.

      2-You might wanna take out that extra ">" because Goku did one shot base Jiren so the different between them was likely less than 50%.

      3-No.This is just you missing the point again. PTSD Jiren being a little stronger than base Jiren who is only stronger than belmod doesn't mean his rage form will make a joke out of them.

      1. Having the nature of something doesn't necessarily mean being equivalent in all aspects to said thing. Unless only Beerus and Champa are capable of destroying their universes in a battle, which is what assuming Toppo is on the level of a GoD will lead to.

      2. Goku was mopping the floor with Jiren, he may not one-shot the guy but it was clearly a significant difference.

      3. Base Jiren gets handily beaten by UI Goku. UBW fares far better than before but still gets beaten. Therefore Goku is stronger than a form that is significantly stronger than a person that's stronger than a GoD. Unless Beerus has a similar power advantage over another GoD, then UI Gku is stonger than him.

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    • MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C?

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C
      Because of reasons edited2
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    • 1-Only a god of destruction is capable of using hakai energy from what we saw in the anime. I mean, what makes a god of destruction? Their power? or their ability to use haki? If Toppo is no different than GoD due to the fact that he can use a hakai enegry then what makes you think GoDs are all relative to each other in the first place? Your first argument falls aprat based on this fact with Beerus being able to stomp any GoD no problem. This is also shown in the manga when Beerus mentioned to Vegeta that he would make a good GoD in another universe

      2-So what? With Goku's superior reaction and speed due to Ultra Instinct, he managed to overwhelm Jiren but Jiren himself did not take any serious damage from all Goku's attacks even before he powered up.

      Therefore Goku is stronger than a form that is significantly stronger than a person that's stronger than a GoD. Unless Beerus has a similar power advantage over another GoD, then UI Gku is stonger than him.

      False analogy. UBW Jiren is not significantly stronger than his base and how Belmod ties into Beerus in term of power is unknow therebefore how Goku compares to Beerus is still unknown.

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    • Base Jiren is clearly above all the GoDs, no GoD ever saw Jiren go all out 100% in his base (before ToP), Belmod states this about how he never seen Jiren push this much of his power against Goku and Vegeta, also, I am still right about that UIO3 Goku being possibly stronger then Beerus, Herms translated the article to Ultra Instinct Goku being possibly stronger then Beerus, not MUI Goku being possibly > Beerus, if you want evidence, the show itself calls MUI Ultra Instinct Mastered

      Main-qimg-c92a6451f95204a85e0406c1e0a26c4c

      Whis states that Jiren cannot be defeated by a GoD, which includes all of the GoDs. Enraged Jiren had a massive power boost, which was shown in the anime.

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    • Omegas03 wrote: MUI Goku did the same thing that made Gogeta 2-C unless I am mistaken, both stomped someone who is above a GoD, why is one 2-C and the other still Low 2-C?

      Make a CRT about it lel.

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    • They all need to be downgraded.

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    • or maybe the BoG feat being Low 2-C is not a stretch at all thus allowing 2-C DB to begin when Astral Zamasu was in the process of taking over both the future and past allowing top tier Tournament of Power characters who should be comparable with GoDs (who btw range in power from Sidra to Beerus). Thus Gogeta being infinitely stronger than a single GoD who are "Half 2-C?" wouldn't have to be his reasoning and the scaling chain would make astronomically more sense than it already does and we don't have to make a potential upgrade thread for Super literally every month with the same reasoning. 0_0 

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      or maybe the BoG feat being Low 2-C is not a stretch at all thus allowing 2-C DB to begin when Astral Zamasu was in the process of taking over both the future and past allowing top tier Tournament of Power characters who should be comparable with GoDs (who btw range in power from Sidra to Beerus). Thus Gogeta being infinitely stronger than a single GoD who are "Half 2-C?" wouldn't have to be his reasoning and the scaling chain would make astronomically more sense than it already does and we don't have to make a potential upgrade thread for Super literally every month with the same reasoning. 0_0 

      ( ō_ô)

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: They all need to be downgraded.

      No they don’t

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    • They all need to be upgraded.

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    • Planck69 wrote:
      PFM18 wrote:

      ....so people are talking about peoppe being 6.4M times stronger than Infinite Zamasu??

      Yes, they are. But if you're skeptical of these high numbers (A lot of people are), here's the most absolutely lowballed version:

      The Omens have shown to give zenkai boosts. Goku after UIO1 is stronger than before to the point that he can very slightly keep up with surpressed Jiren. Post-UIO2 SSB again somewhat keeps up with Jiren while he's using a lot more of his power. No reason to assume that the third Omen and true UI wouldn't bring up his power as well.

      No, they haven't. You can't just arbitrarily assume every Omen gives a...zenkai boost? How the fuck is UI even related to being a Saiyan and the related zenkais? How wouldl Vegeta's speech about Saiyans breaking their limits make sense if UI gives zenkai boosts? What the hell even suggests that his growth was even related to UI Omens? Or even the ones after the 2nd Omen, where we don't see much of anything from Goku at all, let alone enought to show evidence that he had received massive power boosts from them. The UI "he broke his limits" served as an explanation as to why a technique that gives autonomous movement would also give a massive power boost. It shatters his normal limits and that is a mechanism that makes UI so strong, rather than just giving him movement without thinking with no power increase over SSB. 

      Let's assume that surpressed Jiren is only 2 times stronger than IZ and that the boosts from the Omens are only 4 times over. He'd have gotten a boost from the third Omen and true UI as well (one could argue that the far greater stress placed on his body would have a bigger boost) and gotten even stronger in the 3 months of training and I'll go with 1.5 times as a lowball. So;   

      Ummmm....no? Why would we assume that suppressed Jiren is even stronger than IZ at all? Let's look at the conversation that I am assuming that you are referring to:

      Other Kaioshin: The willpower to control that with just his glare, and I sense a far higher power within him.

      Whis: It appears he's at the limit of his limit.  Meanwhile, Jiren appears to be far from full power. 

      U7 Kaioshin: This power feels different from anyone we've ever faced before. He's strong plain and simple. 

      There are two lines specifically alluding to power other than the power he was currently using. AND THEN, Whis confirms that Jiren is the mortal stronger than their GoD. It should be obvious the power being referred to in both instances is not the suppressed power he was using. Otherwise, basically everyone and their mother would be stronger than the GoDs, or you would have to find some convoluted way for the conversation to be referring to his suppressed power with respect to previous enemies, and his full-power with respect to his GoD, rather than staying consistent. Therefore, all we know is that Jiren is stronger than Zamasu at his best, but that's about it. 

       Base Gogeta is keeping up with SS1 Broly who's 40 times stronger than in his Ikari form, which is comparable to SSB Goku. IF we go with Base Gogeta being only a quarter of SS1 Broly's power then we have;  

      Okay, first of all it is pure head canon to claim that his SSJ is a multiplier of his Ikari form rather than his Base form. It's ambiguous we don't know that. It could go either way. And no, he was weaker than SSB Goku, not comparable. Why the fuck would Base Gogeta be a quarter of SSJ Broly's power? Am I to believe that SSJ Gogeta was more than 10x stronger than SSJ Broly? That's absolutely not what is shown in the fight. If Base Gogeta was a quarter of SSJ Broly, SSJ Gogeta would have fucking one shot/low-diffed SSJ Broly. 

       

      1920 x 40 x 2 x 4 x 5 x 40= 122,800,000 times baseline.

      ....and this is supposed to be a lowball....

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    • SSJ Broly being 40x-50x his ikari form makes more sense since his SS form was able to keep up with SS Gogeta who should have been Blue level at the minimum. Otherwise you will have to assume that SS Broly grew randomly 10 times stronger form beating Freiza for a whole hour.

      Comparable =/= dead equals.

      Broly had a lot of back and forth with Blue Goku before Goku began to gain an advantage over him and even then Goku never defeated Broly their fight was interrupted by Frieza.

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    • I agree with @PFM18 overall though. Those numbers and scalings are silly.

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    • Broly SSJ form is called SSJ, it's not called SSJ Ikari, we have no reason to believe that Broly can stack up transformation, it was litteraly never done before.

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    • And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

      Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

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    • Base to base Goku would be stronger than Vegeta. Base fusions are stronger than all forms of both fusee’s so base Gogeta being close to SSB Goku’s level supports Goku > Vegeta.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

      Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

      Yes, that's exactly what this mean, that's how the forms are called and how they work.

      Broly wasn't supposed to either, it's a purely graphic add-on by the director of the movie who wanted Broly's iconic look, in the script and the novel, it's just a full power SSJ.

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    • Nah that's just your headcanon in trying to explain thing and force non-exist scenario to fit your narrative.

      -SS doesn't give you green aura

      -SS doesn't make you 10 foot tall

      -SS doesn't make you go insane

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      Nah that's just your headcanon in trying to explain thing and force non-exist scenario to fit your narrative.

      -SS doesn't give you green aura

      -SS doesn't make you 10 foot tall

      -SS doesn't make you go insane

      No, that's what the director himself directly stated, he added the iconic look, he said so himself.

      Yeah because Broly stacking two transformation is totaly canon and confirmed by....absolutly nothing and is directly contradicted by every mention of the form ever.

      SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either and SSJ does make you insane, Goku litteraly told so to Gohan.

      But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.

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    • Just going to put this here
      Broly in Ikari SS
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    • ZERO7772
      ZERO7772 removed this reply because:
      s
      17:48, January 5, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
      Snip

      Snp

      And how does that support your argument in any shape or form? Yeah, the director wanted to include Broly's iconic look in the movie so what? Broly's iconic form was never a normal SS transformation to begin with and now you want to say it was normal super sayian full power.

      Never said it's 100% true but it goes along with the narrtive, visuals and feats much better than your "graphic add-on" that ignore literally everything in favor of fitting with your narrrtive.

      That's false. SS messed up with Goku's head at first yeah but it didn't drove him batshit insane as it does with Broly. Goku was actually taunting and making fun of Frieza for the majority of the fight.

      Broly had green hair, big body, green aura, yellow eyes, kept up with SS Gogeta's whose base is equal to Blues. It makes MUCH more sense to assume he was stacking SS on top of Ikari.

      But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.

      He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually.

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:


      ZERO7772 wrote:
      Snip
      Snip

      But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.


      He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually

      Not the iconic form, the iconic LOOK, there is no legendary super saiyan form in that movie, it was just the look of it because that's how everyone remember Broly looking like.

      No, it doesn't go along with any narrative or anything established, everyone say he is in SSJ, Freezer's goal was to make go SSJ and all official stuff call it 'SSJ', so it's SSJ, it's simple.

      No, that's true, Broly was just a more extreme case because he is already unstable to begin with and unlike Goku, he had no one to directly blame, it's even bad enough to stop Goku from being able to use the genkidama, SSJ was always shown to take a huge mental toll.

      When did Ikari change his hair color ? never, the eye changed back when Broly was about to die / snapped back to reality and yet no mention of being 10 time weaker or getting smaller were made, he kept up with Gogeta the same way he kept up with everyone before : he just kept getting stronger at a stupid rate and finaly, we are told in what form he is and it's not ever in any product ever called 'SSJ ikari' or anything like that, it's always said to be just normal SSJ and Full Power SSJ.

      There is no 'ashtualy !', he was in SSJ and then SSJ Full Power, nothing else, not 'muh oozaru' which never stacked with SSJ and not 'legendary' anything.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:

      SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either

      Didn’t Yamoshi (the original super saiyan) literally stacked super saiyan on top of his Oozaru form?

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    • what?

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    • MonzyMonz
      MonzyMonz removed this reply because:
      Aaaaa
      21:09, January 5, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Legendary Super Saiyan is Legendary Super Saiyan, a different version of Super Saiyan. Some of you guys are overlooking the LSSJ transformation

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
       

      SSJ doesn't stack with Oozaru either

      Didn’t Yamoshi (the original super saiyan) literally stacked super saiyan on top of his Oozaru form?

      No, he didn't, i don't know where you're getting that idea from.

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    • Idk if Broly's SSJ is a SSJ Ikari or merely SSJ, but multiplier wise it's well over 50x Ikari based on SSJ Broly = SSJ Gogeta >>> Base Gogeta > SSB Goku and Ikari Broly.

      Btw, Broly's Super Saiyan forms are entirely different from the Ordinary SSJ transformations and this is probably obvious considering it makes Broly go crazy, lack of pupils and such. Broly's SSJ and FPSSJ likely belong to the Kale's LSSJ kind of transformations despite the naming.

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    • Kale wasn't a character yet when Toriyama wrote DBS Broly so it's not possible, SSJ Berserk wasn't a thing yet.

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    • Both transformations have similar concepts though.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:


      ZERO7772 wrote:
      Snip
      Snip

      But no, that's totaly not a headcanon and Broly was actualy SSJ3 Ikari with Kaioken and green ultra instinct.


      He was in Oozaru legendary super Saiyan full power actually

      Not the iconic form, the iconic LOOK, there is no legendary super saiyan form in that movie, it was just the look of it because that's how everyone remember Broly looking like.

      No, it doesn't go along with any narrative or anything established, everyone say he is in SSJ, Freezer's goal was to make go SSJ and all official stuff call it 'SSJ', so it's SSJ, it's simple.

      No, that's true, Broly was just a more extreme case because he is already unstable to begin with and unlike Goku, he had no one to directly blame, it's even bad enough to stop Goku from being able to use the genkidama, SSJ was always shown to take a huge mental toll.

      When did Ikari change his hair color ? never, the eye changed back when Broly was about to die / snapped back to reality and yet no mention of being 10 time weaker or getting smaller were made, he kept up with Gogeta the same way he kept up with everyone before : he just kept getting stronger at a stupid rate and finaly, we are told in what form he is and it's not ever in any product ever called 'SSJ ikari' or anything like that, it's always said to be just normal SSJ and Full Power SSJ.

      There is no 'ashtualy !', he was in SSJ and then SSJ Full Power, nothing else, not 'muh oozaru' which never stacked with SSJ and not 'legendary' anything.

      Again so what? He could bring the iconic LSSJ form look and could still apply whatever lore to it from the DBS. It really support you argument in any way.

      Same way how LSSJ Kale is simply called SS2 right? Again couldn't care less about the naming of the form. Freiza was attempting to give Broly a super sayin boost not getting rid of his current one. Broly transformed to SS while IN Ikari.

      Except it's not. Goku was angry but he wasn't batshit insane. Broly was out of control, yeah but the moment he tapped into his ikari form he was like a fucking animal at that point, it has nothing to do with super sayian. Gohan did not lose his mind when he turned into a super Saiyan, Califula did not, Cappa did not, heck not even freaking Trunks or Goten had such experience. Trying to apply losing your mind to going SS is false analogy at best

      I was talking about Broly's green hair color that does not match the nomal super sayian.

      Broly's adaptation can only take him so far though, every time Broly adapted or powered up there was a narrative and visual focus on him, you can't explain every event in the movie with "much adaptation" just because it fit with your narrative.

      Broly was knocking back Gogeta after 2 hits! Yet you are trying to convince me that Broly randomly grew 10 times stronger the moment he had eyes on Gogeta. This is silly at best.

      All your argument is deflecting fact and muh " purely graphic add-on" and muh "ashtualy"

      Not once you adressed these points:

      -Why does SS Broly have green aura

      -Why does SS Broly have huge body

      -Why does SSFP have Green hair

      -Why did his eyes turned back yellow if his original eyes color is black.

      Give me your headcanon for each of these points please.

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    • No, he couldn't, because he didn't write the fucking story, the story said it was SSJ so he had no say in the matter but he could give Broly his iconic look.

      Kale's form isn't LSSJ at all and yes, it's pretty obvious you don't care about official information and the canon fact, they're lying headcanon anyway and you know the real truth, right ? not headcanon at all.

      It's such a false analogy we had Goku himself telling us directly it does make you mad to the point he had to tell his son he wouldn't be able to control himself.

      I know what you were talking about.

      No, the movie constantly told you 'shit, Broly is getting stupidly strong by the second'.

      His 'adaptation' (he's just getting stronger, not really adaptation) took him far enough to push Gogeta to SSJB, that's pretty obvious.

      No, all my argument is 'look at the official fucking info that directly state that he is using SSJ, not some buslhit headcanon cumulation of every form ever'.

      I actualy did, how about you read my comments instead of screaming about everything actualy canon is a lie ?

      the answer to all of those is : to look like LSSJ Broly from movie 8, which was directly stated to have been added purely for the look.

      Keep complaining about headcanon while screeching about how everything actualy official is a lie and that only you know the truth about the LSSJ 1 2 3 4 Oozaru green ultra instinct combinaison form, the actual DB franchise will go with the form being Full Power Super Saiyan and Ikari being a seperate inferior transformation that doesn't stack, like every other transformation.

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    • Yet you used him to justify your headcanon? Director san can make Broly go Ultra instinct on-screen but actually he's still in super Saiyan because Toriyama said so. Toriyama didn't even write SSBKK and SSBE and the anime stil included them to the story. Your excuse is still weak.

      When those "names" conflict with what is shown in the story and lore yeah they are "bullshit". SS2 doesn't turn you hair green and it doesn't give a bigger boost than SS God does so yeah, calling her just SS2 is bullshit in my eyes. I mean, you are not even questioning the legitimacy of those names or even try to apply to sense them, but they fit with your headcanon right so it's all fine right? Lets ignore all the established lore, narrative, scaling and visuals just because "muh names" which usually comes from mobile games and magazines promo

      So what? Goku brought nothing new to the table we know that SS upon first trasnfomrion DOES make you angry but again, what about it? You are ignoring literally every other instance shown in the story and decided to foucs and exaggerated one line that was said decades ago. SS doesn't make you batshit insane, period.

      No? He doesn't get a random boost at random times, every boost he got throughout the movie whatever it was by either adapting or transforming was touched on and not gloosed over entirely. Not to mentin it takes some time although short, Broly doesn't get thousands stronger after 2 punches.

      It's arguable whatever Gogeta needed to Blue him against him or not "since he was stomping him hard while holding back" and this concept, in the end, doesn't matter because Broly made Gogeta go Blue after A "transformation" an adaptation boost. Gogeta didn't say "oh shit he's adapting fast I need to bull my cards fast"

      Your "official sources" are some cards names for a gacha games that doesn't make sense when put to the context of the main story. Of course they are bullshit.

      Dude, the only thing you even gloosed over was his eye color, and you used the excuses "he was about to die", how is that even an .... argument? If Broly was simply in SS form and snapped back to reality or even reverted back to his base form at that moment, his eyes would have been black, or even green since this is SS natural eyes color. His ikari form had yellow eyes and he showed yellow eyes while in SSFP before he reverted back to his base form.

      Again you are applying your headcanon and ignore all the visuals and narrative just to fit your OWN narrative. Original Broly did not even have yellow eyes and he wasn't even berserk he was just pure evil and his form was never a normal SS form. You just keep reapting the same old point of muh "purely graphic add-on" and ignore literally everything is shown about old and new Broly.

      It's Super Sayian ozaru full power, the least you could is to get the name right ಠ_ಠ Oh, and you can keep your shitty ultra instinct mix I have my own fan-fic name ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • No, i used his own words to remind you that your imagination has no bearing on actual canon, he said himself he gave the iconic look while it isn't LSSJ and Toriyama had never included anything other than plain old SSJ and full power SSJ in the actual story, which are form that always existed.

      Good headcanon, the official franchise still say it's just Super Saiyan so welcome to reality, Broly is in SSJ form and stacked absolutly nothing, also keep going with 'muh hair color' when the Ikari never made Broly's hair green either.

      Yeah so basicaly your answer is that 'Goku was just lying with his headcanon, i know the truth !!!!' awesome but facts are still what they are so SSJ does have an effect on your mental state, to the point even someone pure hearted can't control themself, period.

      Yes, he didn't get random boost, he constantly got stronger during the whole fight, that's what happened in the movie.

      'a-adaptation boost !', no, Gogeta was in base form after Broly's initial transformation, Broly just got stronger as they fought, which is why Gogeta went SSJ and then SSJB.

      Yes, so those are official source made by the people owning the franchise, which mean that's their actual name and how they actualy work, no matter how much your screech your nonsensical names and headcanon some weird stacking nonsense.

      good thing that you acknowledge i addressed all your other bulshit points at least, the eye color is simply there to look better with Broly's crazed look compared to Broly's calm eyes with their normal color.

      'h-h-headcanon' screech the guy who just tried to say that what he pull out of his ass is less bulshit than the actual freaking name given by the owners of the franchise.

      Nope, it's SSJ and SSJ Full Power, nothing else, not 'muh oozaru' or 'muh legendary', it's normal ass SSJ like it has always been.

      It's not a 'fan nickname', that's fan delusion at this point.

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    • The Broly movie sparks up a lot of debates.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      The Broly movie sparks up a lot of debates.

      This is pretty small stuff compared to the Jiren vs Broly debate TBH, that debate always turn into a shitstorm IMO.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
      And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

      Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

      Yes, that's exactly what this mean, that's how the forms are called and how they work.

      Broly wasn't supposed to either, it's a purely graphic add-on by the director of the movie who wanted Broly's iconic look, in the script and the novel, it's just a full power SSJ.

      Wait you are saying Broly's last form is the same as the one goku used against Cell??

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
      And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

      Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

      Yes, that's exactly what this mean, that's how the forms are called and how they work.

      Broly wasn't supposed to either, it's a purely graphic add-on by the director of the movie who wanted Broly's iconic look, in the script and the novel, it's just a full power SSJ.

      Wait you are saying Broly's last form is the same as the one goku used against Cell??

      The only similarities they share are the name clearly the intent was for this to be LSSJ and it makes sense since Broly overpowered SSJ Gogeta with it and pushed him straight to Blue

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    • I'm still salty that we can't give Gogeta Soul Manip and Broly Soul Resist based on Soul Punisher being used in the movie XD

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    • MonzyMonz wrote: Didn’t Yamoshi (the original super saiyan) literally stacked super saiyan on top of his Oozaru form?

      I think he’s referring to the scene in the anime where Vegeta was talking about the original Super Saiyan and he appeared as a Golden Oozaru.

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    • Broly's SSJ is stacked upon his Ikari. It's pretty obvious and we've had this conversation in a CRT.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      I'm still salty that we can't give Gogeta Soul Manip and Broly Soul Resist based on Soul Punisher being used in the movie XD

      Why? non canon has it 

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    • Fsdghfjgjg
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    • Shubham Sonsurkar wrote:
      AwkguyDB wrote:
      I'm still salty that we can't give Gogeta Soul Manip and Broly Soul Resist based on Soul Punisher being used in the movie XD
      Why? non canon has it 

      Because Non Canon Gogeta uses it to purify Janemba's soul. Canon Gogeta's Soul Punisher only causes a massive explosion.

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    • I believe Canon Gogeta's Soul Punisher was intended to be the exact same thing as the Non Canon one seeing he even smiled after Broly resisted the attack but I ain't gonna debate about it since muh he needs actual showings.

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    • Geez, just came back and this thread exploded in activity while I was absent. Sorry for not responding to the argument I was having a few days ago.

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    • AwkguyDB wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      ZERO7772 wrote:
      And his LSSJ form is called full power SSJ, does that mean his regular SS form was the one Goku used against Frieza and his final form is what Goku pulled against Cell? Cuz clearly Goku didn't grow 10 foot tall and give green aura after he finished his training.

      Couldn't care less about the naming tbh.

      Yes, that's exactly what this mean, that's how the forms are called and how they work.

      Broly wasn't supposed to either, it's a purely graphic add-on by the director of the movie who wanted Broly's iconic look, in the script and the novel, it's just a full power SSJ.

      Wait you are saying Broly's last form is the same as the one goku used against Cell??

      The only similarities they share are the name clearly the intent was for this to be LSSJ and it makes sense since Broly overpowered SSJ Gogeta with it and pushed him straight to Blue

      That is absolutely correct.

      However, this idea that Broly's SSJ is 50x ikari is unsubstantiated. I'd at least like to see an attempt at an argument for it.

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    • Base Gogeta is shown and stated to be above SSB Goku who is equal to Ikari Broly.

      and SSJ Broly fought with that same Gogeta in SSJ, so SSJ Broly is at least 50x Ikari going by their showings. Though idk if Broly's power was growing so high he became 50x his Ikari or that the boost was just 50x considering he didn't outright one shot Goku, Vegeta or Frieza.

      Sooo SSJ Broly/Gogeta > (50x) Base Gogeta > SSBs = Ikari Broly.

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    • What if I told you Whis who in the games considers Gogeta Xeno, SSJB Gogeta, MUI Goku etc fodder, considers Fu more dangerous than Mechikabura, and even showed concern towards Fu (Albiet in the Heroes manga which isn't the main canon but let's pretend you didn't hear me say that)

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    • I'd like to point out that canonically we've never seen Whis interact with any of the Xeno or Demon Realm characters, the closest we've had so far was Xeno Goku and Vegeta spending a couple seconds in the same location as him.

      It would be shaky to try and extrapolate that comparison to the game anyway, since Game Mechikabura has been a far greater threat to reality.

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    • What about Merno from Moro arc should he be added in Angel's list

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:
      What if I told you Whis who in the games considers Gogeta Xeno, SSJB Gogeta, MUI Goku etc fodder, considers Fu more dangerous than Mechikabura, and even showed concern towards Fu (Albiet in the Heroes manga which isn't the main canon but let's pretend you didn't hear me say that)

      That's because Fu is more active on the DBS side of the story than on the Time Patrol side of the story.

      Also Fu creat problems without even fighting or mind controling anyone so i can see how he'd be more dangerous.

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3904949?useskin=oasis

      Need help here. Hopefully Broly doesn’t stomp...

      Also, I would be puzzled if they made the Time Patrol canon.

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    • DB Kakarot is already a top seller on steam.

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    • @domino

      No.

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    • According to DBH, the name of the move Gogeta uses in the movie is:

      Stardust Explosion

      https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1214904538286546944

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    • ZERO7772 wrote:
      According to DBH, the name of the move Gogeta uses in the movie is:

      Stardust Explosion

      https://twitter.com/DbsHype/status/1214904538286546944

      LikableThickHydra-max-1mb
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    • Hmmmm

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    • Shubham Sonsurkar
      Shubham Sonsurkar removed this reply because:
      wrong
      16:52, January 8, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Moro arc is going pretty good Vegeta might get an healing technique

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    • A Saiyan that has healing with the ability to get stronger after taking huge amounts of damage would be insane XD

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    • So basically Goku Black again?

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    • I mean SSG Goku was able to heal is heart after getting it pierced by Beerus but I guess he cannot do something like that in base so I guess technique like this will be quite usefull

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    • Sounds also like Cell

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    • not on that level

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    • They always give Gogeta cool attack names lol

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    • Soul Punisher/ Stardust Breaker 

      Punisher Drive 

      Ultimate Impact 

      Punisher Shield 

      Stardust Fall 

      God Punisher 

      Meteor/ Stardust Explosion 

      just to name a few 

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    • assault vanish = bootleg fantasy nature 

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    • AKM sama wrote: They always give Gogeta cool attack names lol

      Causing the sadness and despair of a certain fusion

      Give me your bread by composite vegito dd11k7b-pre
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    • Savage strike looks and sounds cool tho

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    • So, Gogeta has:

      -Stardust Breaker

      -Stardust Fall

      -Stardust Explosion

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote:

      AKM sama wrote: They always give Gogeta cool attack names lol

      Causing the sadness and despair of a certain fusion

      Give me your bread by composite vegito dd11k7b-pre

      Vegito always plays a second fiddle for Gogeta in one way or another (¬‿¬)

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    • Im liking the lore development in the manga.

      Also, we should add in Whis' and co's intelligence or weaknesses that they wont ever fight at full power im character. Cuz that's what they consider "fighting" for angels.

      And Goku is now Angel-trainee level. Huh.

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    • Watch Goku's base form surpass Beerus when this arc ends.

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    • Heroes which is currently Post ToP; DBHDBS Goku is no where near Whis' level still, even with MUI.  Also I wonder what this "Angel Realm" Whis mentioned is

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    • Isn't this arc about being able to beat your opponent using nonstandard moves? Goku was trying to get UI under control and Vegeta's learning hax/refining his ki usage. A arc more like the ToP (All about constantly getting physically stronger over and over again) is the type that I think would be one where Beerus gets surpassed by the end of it.

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    • The TOP was all about cashing in on the battle royal trend, you can't change my mind.

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:
      Heroes which is currently Post ToP; DBHDBS Goku is no where near Whis' level still, even with MUI. 

      Also I wonder what this "Angel Realm" Whis mentioned is

      Whis is and will be infinitely stronger than any mortal character until  Official material eventually say otherwise ovo.

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    • If Goku manages to become as strong as Beerus with SSJB, would he be 2-C with Kaio-ken? I think I remember someone saying that multipliers wouldn't work that way in the tiering system

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    • Gogeta managed to become 2-C via casually stomping someone who's Beerus tier (half 2-C).

      so if SSJB Goku somehow managed to become as strong as Beerus with SSB, with Kaioken he'll definitely be 2-C.

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: Isn't this arc about being able to beat your opponent using nonstandard moves? Goku was trying to get UI under control and Vegeta's learning hax/refining his ki usage. A arc more like the ToP (All about constantly getting physically stronger over and over again) is the type that I think would be one where Beerus gets surpassed by the end of it.

      Okay the ToP sec was definitely not about getting physically stronger over and over again.

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    • Gogeta is only 2-C because we kept yelling at AKM lul

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    • inb4 BoG feat gets accepted as 2-C ovo

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    • Surpassing your limits was definitely what a lot of the tournament was about thematically. Goku, Gohan, Cabba, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Toppo, Kefla, Hit, even Freiza and 17.

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    • ChocomilkAlex wrote: Watch Goku's base form surpass Beerus when this arc ends.

      Lol toyo isn’t toei who could give two shits about consistency or powerscaling

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    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: Surpassing your limits was definitely what a lot of the tournament was about thematically. Goku, Gohan, Cabba, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Toppo, Kefla, Hit, even Freiza and 17.

      the verbatim "breaking limits" was only directed at Gohan, Cabba, Kefla, and then with respect to forms for Vegeta and Goku.

      17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

      If the tournament was about "getting physically stronger constantly" they would not have had an entire prelude sequence ehere they emphasize strength is not everything.

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    • Dragomer wrote: They all need to be upgraded.

      Majority of DBS characters should’ve been low 2-c since BOG

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

      To be fair, Goku did say 'we' have gone past our limits when talking to Frieza, so that implies Frieza and 17 may have surpassed their limits.

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

      To be fair, Goku did say 'we' have gone past our limits when talking to Frieza, so that implies Frieza and 17 may have surpassed their limits.

      Which is more of them going beyond what they could be able to do at the time not “well gotten stronger than previously “

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    • PaChi2 wrote:

      Also, we should add in Whis' and co's intelligence or weaknesses that they wont ever fight at full power im character. Cuz that's what they consider "fighting" for angels.

      Angels aren't even allowed to fight using their angel abilities and them using full power in training isn't allowed either because it somehow counts as a fight. Merus was only fighting with mortal weapons because he was sent to observe the mortals. Anyway, that's an in-verse limitation. In vs battles they are forced to fight at full power lol.

      Explains why Whis only kept dodging Broly.

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      DragonEmperor23 wrote: Surpassing your limits was definitely what a lot of the tournament was about thematically. Goku, Gohan, Cabba, Jiren, Caulifla, Kale, Toppo, Kefla, Hit, even Freiza and 17.

      the verbatim "breaking limits" was only directed at Gohan, Cabba, Kefla, and then with respect to forms for Vegeta and Goku.

      17, Freeza, Hit, especially, had absolutely no thematic focus as far as surpassing limits.

      If the tournament was about "getting physically stronger constantly" they would not have had an entire prelude sequence ehere they emphasize strength is not everything.

      I mean, they did do that with Krillin but after the tournament started they focused on surpassing your limits. Like Roshi vs Ganon (I think that was the bird dude's name), what Cryo said about Goku saying to 17 and Freiza (and even ignoring that, 17 kept using an attack that was thought to kill him and Freiza kept getting back up after being ragdolled by others), etc. And if you're saying that Vegeta's only hint for getting stronger was his SSBE form, then no, there was that scene where he was all like "I can see his punches!" after fighting Jiren for a while which was way before that transformation.

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    • it doesnt matter what reasons they have to not go all out, it should be addressed that it is something they dont do in character. Doesnt matter if SBA gets rid of said limitation by default, we are an indexing site, arent we?

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    • Tipper17 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote: They all need to be upgraded.

      Majority of DBS characters should’ve been low 2-c since BOG

      Bruh I've been saying this XD

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      it doesnt matter what reasons they have to not go all out, it should be addressed that it is something they dont do in character. Doesnt matter if SBA gets rid of said limitation by default, we are an indexing site, arent we?

      They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters.

      Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused.

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    • "They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters."

      No. Angels must remain neutral. That's the rule and something they live their lives following. Its their character. You dont see Whis minding his erasure or U7's. Whis is neutral and he is not like "I wish I could fight someone with all my power". He doesnt care.

      "Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused."

      This, on yhe other hand, I can understand.

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    • PaChi2 wrote:
      "They don't do it in character because it would result in an instant erasure by a highter power, it's not part of their characters."

      No. Angels must remain neutral. That's the rule and something they live their lives following. Its their character. You dont see Whis minding his erasure or U7's. Whis is neutral and he is not like "I wish I could fight someone with all my power". He doesnt care.

      "Also it was decide to not use the infos of the manga about the angels, otherwise they all would have type 5 immortality and it was refused."

      This, on yhe other hand, I can understand.

      That's the rule enforced by the Grand Priest and Zeno, not something the angels decided for themself so no, it's not part of their characters, you remove Zeno and the Grand Priest erasing them if they do it and they'll stop being neutral.

      He maybe doesn't mind U7 being erased but he sure as hell mind him or his brother getting erased, even the grand priest doesn't like losing angels.

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    • "That's the rule enforced by the Grand Priest and Zeno, not something the angels decided for themself so no, it's not part of their characters, you remove Zeno and the Grand Priest erasing them if they do it and they'll stop being neutral.

      He maybe doesn't mind U7 being erased but he sure as hell mind him or his brother getting erased, even the grand priest doesn't like losing angels."

      You are under the impression that Whis and co only behave like that because they are forced to. I dont think that's the case unless we can see more of an internal struggle from Whis or any other Angel. Heck, Merus knew he was crossing the line and accepted to follow Whis without arguing.

      The death penalyt's removal doesnt make people who arent murderers start murdering, in other words, removing Zeno and GP wont make Angels change unless there is evidence to think otherwise. Im more inclined to believe that the Angles work thinking that "Angels must be neutral" rather than "if Im not neutral Im ded".

      But this is all pointless, I thought Angels had manga pages.

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    • It's not an impression, that's what we are told, they are following the rules because otherwise they get erased.

      You can believe whatever you want, in the meantime, the official info tell us that they are neutral under the threat of erasure, nothing else.

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    • Dragomer wrote: It's not an impression, that's what we are told, they are following the rules because otherwise they get erased.

      You can believe whatever you want, in the meantime, the official info tell us that they are neutral under the threat of erasure, nothing else.

      Nah. Beerus, Champa, other GoDs do give the impression of being obedient just because otherwise they are dead meat. They are scared of Zeno and GP. Whis and the Angels on the other hand are non chalant and carefree. The show makes a huge distinction about who "is working under the threat of erasure". Angels simply are neutral, doesnt matter if they are punished if they arent if that's not their motivation to be neutral.

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    • 4ebaa
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    • Ryukama: God of Memes

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    • [[1]] just need some input on these Goku addition thank you

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    • [[1]] can someone also give their input here?

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    • Random question but what are your multipliers on Super Saiyan God, Blue and Ultra Instinct?

      Imo...

      For God I find it to be 2,000,000x

      For Blue I think it might be 100,000,000x

      For Ultra Instinct it’s 20,000,000,000x

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    • If we assume SSJ3 is 400x, then God which is in a totally different realm of power could be 10,000 to 20,000x Base. Blue is 50x that and UI/MUI are way over 20x that of Blue, I even believe UI probably is to Blue what Blue is to Base.

      I believe these numbers are way too bloated though maybe someone could make a lower estimation.

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    • MonzyMonz wrote: Random question but what are your multipliers on Super Saiyan God, Blue and Ultra Instinct?

      Imo...

      For God I find it to be 2,000,000x

      For Blue I think it might be 100,000,000x

      For Ultra Instinct it’s 20,000,000,000x

      Low ball for Blue is 10 times God based on the manga. Oterwise it's just 50x the god form.

      No way to tell UI's number but it's way above 20x times.

      @Omegas03 God being a totally different level was only a thing when Goku did the ritual. It doesn't feel like a huge jump in power considering that Caulifla was able to take some of hits and not get one shotted and frankly, she was more impressed with 3 than she was with god "not to say 3 is stronger than god" but barely anyone give any immersion to Goku going from regular SSJ forms to god

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    • Super Saiyan God lowballed is a 160,000 times multiplier from base.

      Goku stated that fusion would do nothing to Beerus. Which would include SSJ3 Vegito, with even base Vegito being stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yet once Goku had SSG, he was confident he stood a chance against Beerus.

      If you're going to do fan calcs and compare the universe busting feats to what he was capable of beforehand, it's astronimically larger than that.

      Unfortunately SSG has been made out to be something not all that impressive anymore.

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    • I gave up on trying to find the UI multiplier, there’s so much shit. I just use backwards scaling from Gogeta.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      I gave up on trying to find the UI multiplier, there’s so much shit. I just use backwards scaling from Gogeta.

      If we use this method you can get crazy results.

      As I established earlier, SSG should be a 160,000x multiplier. SSB is essentially stacking SSJ on top of that. So SSB is an 8 million times multiplier.

      Base Gogeta is stronger than SSB Goku, and can stack SSB on top of that. So SSB Gogeta is a 64 trillion times multiplier from Base Goku. If you're assuming Ultra Instinct Goku > SSB (Which is debatable) then damn. 

      Multipliers were a mistake.

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    • They were. But I was talking about lowballed results ;-;

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    • Ryukama wrote: Super Saiyan God lowballed is a 160,000 times multiplier from base.

      Goku stated that fusion would do nothing to Beerus. Which would include SSJ3 Vegito, with even base Vegito being stronger than SSJ3 Goku. Yet once Goku had SSG, he was confident he stood a chance against Beerus.

      If you're going to do fan calcs and compare the universe busting feats to what he was capable of beforehand, it's astronimically larger than that.

      Unfortunately SSG has been made out to be something not all that impressive anymore.

      Are we sure the SSG multiplier is the same for example the first time opposed to currently? Considering Goku absorbed SSG power.

      I also still have my doubts on Blue being 50x God, it's the most logical thing for sure but it's never depicted as such lol.

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    • BlackeJan wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRvNaDHMNWQ

      Watch this

      Tbh, I find this kind of video funny. It doesn't matter for how long you train, if the plot demands your downfall or rise, you'll get that. At the beginning of the Universe 6 arc, Vegeta says that he and Goku are at their limits in response to Goku asking him to train. Some episodes later: training to beat the shit out of Black. An arc later: Jumping from 3-A to Low 2-C via breaking limits and literally saying that a Saiyan has no limits.

      The same thing can be said about Future Trunks and Gohan. They only progress as the plot demands.

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    • Well, my thread was locked for no reason so I am going to continue my reply to @AKM Sama here. 

       Posting a massive wall of text isn't debunking. Argumentum ad nauseum and verbosium isn't debunking. I already addressed all of the same points in my earlier comment and if you're hellbent on being wilfully ignorant and stubborn then I can't repeat the same things again and again.

      Yeah of course not. But debunking your arguments, is in fact debunking your arguments.Obviously just saying a lot of stuff is not debunking your argument, but I had to post the entire dialogue, which makes much longer, because you kept lying about it. I mean, your entire argument is based on things that are simply factually untrue:

      -You claim that Beerus had, previously in the fight, had explicitly questioned Goku's limits, so him raging out only at the end would be nonsensical. This is false, because the dialogue I posted proves that the only time he questioned Goku's limits was in the final scene. So, this was just based on a lie. 

      -You claim that the final scene mirrored previous scenes, where Goku says "Not yet!" then immedaitely becomes stronger. This is false, Goku says "Not yet!" and then nothing happens, AND THEN Beerus questions his limits, and ONLY THEN does Goku overpower the SoD. It distinctly contrasts previous scenes, not mirrors them. 

      -That the scene has him smiling while he explains this to Beerus. This is false, when he delivers the line he is clearly stern and serious/mad/irritated, hence the crinkled eyebrows/eyes.

      At this point, it isn't even a matter of interpretation, you're just not correct about the details of the scene. 
       Yes very convenient. Let's keep ignoring the fact that Goku was smiling before and after that line . Let's ignore that he had a calm tone throughout the dialogue and also ignore the blatantly obvious fact that he was struggling to speak properly because of the physical pain that made his eyebrows like that, even after he was smiling when he finished his dialogue  

      Did I ever dispute that he smiled? No, I did not. Did you even read my post that you're responding to? He smiled, after proving Beerus wrong, and then explains why he is angry in the scene. That's the literal presentation of the scene. It could not be more clear, with the zoom-in sequence, the ways his eyes and eyebrow crinkled, emphasizing that when he delivered the line he was clearly irritated/angry. ​​​

      Yeah he was obviously in pain, which is exactly why he fell asleep after he finished talking. It truly shows how poor your argument is, that you claim the framing of the scene is to emphasize that he was hurt. It's obvious he was hurt, why the fuck would that be given so much emphasis? Is that a compelling plot point??  The sequence was emphasizing that he was angry, explaining why he was so enraged just moments prior. He got enraged, and then the conversation was simply explaining WHY he was so angry, with the choreography being used to emphasize this. Not, in some convoluted way, emphasizing that....he was hurt when he was making casual conversation with Beerus for no particular reason, "politely." 

      And hence, Base Goku "absorbing SSG into Base" and being stronger than BoG SSG going forward from BoG is false. 

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      Are we sure the SSG multiplier is the same for example the first time opposed to currently? Considering Goku absorbed SSG power.

      I agree with that, I think the multiplier is different.

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    • Yeah it can't be that huge anymore.

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    • I’m sure the multiplier is the same, it’s just that majority of the characters that fought SSG is just that strong (realistically they shouldn’t)

      Don’t also let’s it distract u from the fact that if Goku every abosrbed SSG, then he would had gotten clapped by Base Cabba

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    • I pretty sure base Goku can beat him even before achieving SSG

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    • Vegeta stated that Base Cabba was pretty much on par with his base (Vegeta also absorbed SSG into base thanks to Whis training) and during that time

      Base Vegeta = Base Goku 

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    • Well... Toriyama does not care about power level. Plus they should have altered this in anime version as this is basically from the Manga and Manga Vegeta nor Goku absorbed SSG in base.

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    • Acutally....in the manga they did

      This was from the Revival of F manga

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    • I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base

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    • Then how did a base Vegito Casually blew up half of Fusion Zamasu?

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    • BlackeJan wrote:
      Vegeta stated that Base Cabba was pretty much on par with his base (Vegeta also absorbed SSG into base thanks to Whis training) and during that time

      Base Vegeta = Base Goku 

      absorbed into Base? The absorption occurred with Goku when he was SSJ. 

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    • Shubham Sonsurkar wrote:
      I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base

      That image i posted above is that Goku indeed absorbed SSG into his base

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    • BlackeJan wrote:
      Shubham Sonsurkar wrote:
      I mean they didn't absorbed SSG in base
      That image i posted above is that Goku indeed absorbed SSG into his base

      No, he didn't. That image is from the promotional manga for the RoF DBZ Movie, the actual DBS manga skipped that arc entirely. The "absorbed into Base" premise is movies-only. 

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    • Adem Warlock69 wrote: Then how did a base Vegito Casually blew up half of Fusion Zamasu?

      Vegito was never nerfed in the manga, he’s just that strong.

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    • lmfao

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    • MonzyMonz wrote:

      Adem Warlock69 wrote: Then how did a base Vegito Casually blew up half of Fusion Zamasu?

      Vegito was never nerfed in the manga, he’s just that strong.

      In the manga Future Zamasu was a fodder who wasn’t even SSG lvl while in the anime he was actually somewhat comparable to early Future Trunks Saga SSB. Goku Black also wasn’t ridiculously more powerful than Goku and Vegeta like the anime, in the manga he was only a bit stronger. Due to this Manga Fusion Zamasu is much weaker than Vegito. While in the anime they are roughly comparable.

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    • Tipper17 wrote:

      ChocomilkAlex wrote: Watch Goku's base form surpass Beerus when this arc ends.

      Lol toyo isn’t toei who could give two shits about consistency or powerscaling

      Implying the powerscaling is all that consistent on the manga >->

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    • Wasn't Base Black implied to be above SSJ3 Goku but then SSJ2 Vegeta stomped his SSJ? Then Black REs and his SSJ2 holds an upper advantage over Vegeta's Blue, I am sure that's worse than anything the Anime did in that Arc considering the only a**pull was SSJ Rage lolol

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    • In the manga Vegeta trained with Trunks before fighting Black. That’s probably why SS2 Vegeta > SS1 Goku Black. Although even than the difference wasn’t too big as Black could still keep up with and block attacks from him. But yeah SS2 Goku Black beating up SSB Vegeta after just one zenkai was really bs.

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    • Vegeta getting an ~200× increase by training with Trunks is also kinda BS tbh.

      Considering SSJ2 Vegeta > SSJ Black > Base Black > SSJ2FP Trunks and SSJ3 Goku >(×400) Base Goku.

      Base Vegeta could have been stronger than SSJ3 Goku from what we know haha.

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    • I mean compared to something like Gohan becoming 3-A with a few days of training against Piccolo in both the anime and manga or SS2 Goku Black becoming SSB Lvl after one zenkai it’s really not that bs.

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    • Omegas03 wrote:
      Wasn't Base Black implied to be above SSJ3 Goku but then SSJ2 Vegeta stomped his SSJ? Then Black REs and his SSJ2 holds an upper advantage over Vegeta's Blue, I am sure that's worse than anything the Anime did in that Arc considering the only a**pull was SSJ Rage lolol

      The manga just kind of arbitrarily has:

      SSJ2 Vegeta>SSJ Black>Base Black>SSJ3 Goku

      And there isn't even much of an explanation given for it. It's just fucking stupid.

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    • Y’all remember that rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta got when Beerus slapped Bulma? apparently in the manga, he learned to use that power against Black hence why he was beating the shit out of him before the zenkai

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    • BlackeJan wrote:
      Y’all remember that rage boost SSJ2 Vegeta got when Beerus slapped Bulma? apparently in the manga, he learned to use that power against Black hence why he was beating the shit out of him before the zenkai

      That's never stated or implied at all. That's just the head canon that manga apologists use to rationalize it. 

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    • Just saying bro. Well that’s what was said in the DBZ wiki

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    • Unfortunately the DB wiki mixes non-canon material with canon, we don't know where the Vegeta claim comes from

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      I mean compared to something like Gohan becoming 3-A with a few days of training against Piccolo in both the anime and manga or SS2 Goku Black becoming SSB Lvl after one zenkai it’s really not that bs.

      Gohan was training throughout, it just wasn't really given any real attention until the USS. Like for example when they go to recruit Piccolo for the U6 vs U7 tournament, or when Trunks was leaving for the alternate timeline. 

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    • BlackeJan wrote:
      Just saying bro. Well that’s what was said in the DBZ wiki

      The DBZ wiki says a lot of unsubstantiated things. It is simply an inconsistency and nothing more. Nothing suggests that the BoG scene had permanently changed the essence of Vegeta's SSJ2 form.

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    • I wish I could give more Kudos

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    • Apparently people on this site are very stubborn about the whole Base Goku>BoG SSG thing, even if it doesn't hold much water, but the idea of Piccolo being universal at least needs to be addressed. 

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    • PFM18 wrote: Apparently people on this site are very stubborn about the whole Base Goku>BoG SSG thing, even if it doesn't hold much water, but the idea of Piccolo being universal at least needs to be addressed. 

      Fam. Is this all you ever talk about?

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    • Monzy Monz Wrote:

      [File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

      It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:

      PFM18 wrote: Apparently people on this site are very stubborn about the whole Base Goku>BoG SSG thing, even if it doesn't hold much water, but the idea of Piccolo being universal at least needs to be addressed. 

      Fam. Is this all you ever talk about?

      Yes.

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    • Mulgara wrote:

      Monzy Monz Wrote:

      [File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

      It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

      That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      Mulgara wrote:

      Monzy Monz Wrote:

      [File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

      It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

      That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

      That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

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    • Mulgara wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      Mulgara wrote:

      Monzy Monz Wrote:

      [File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

      It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

      That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

      That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

      ....he didn't say anything at all related to the matter. The episode features no dialogue where Beerus makes any kind of comment like that. They obviously changed their mind if the line does not actually appear in the episode.

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    • A magazine said that, it shouldn't be treated as anything other than opinion. The only thing we know for sure is: Enraged MUI > Burning Ultimate Warrior > MUI > Base FP Jiren > All GoDs

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    • PFM18 wrote:

      Mulgara wrote:

      PFM18 wrote:

      Mulgara wrote:

      Monzy Monz Wrote:

      [File:1ygLBc0.jpg]Here's proof Jiren is stronger then all Gods.

      And proof Goku might of possibly surpassed Beerus when he went UIO3 (And Goku gets stronger when he goes UI Omen throughout his fight with Jiren)

      https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/971664014601154560

      It was the MUI in the 129 - 130, even Hermes wasn't sure and made the wrong presupposition.

      That's no longer relevant. That was a simple episode guide in which it claims that is dialogue that is said in the episode. It says that Beerus(?) says that in the episode, but he didn't, so it holds no weight because it was obviously changed.

      That was because what Beerus said was replaced in the anime, not that it holds no weight at all. If it really wasn't relevant, he wouldn't have said anything at all relating to that matter.

      ....he didn't say anything at all related to the matter. The episode features no dialogue where Beerus makes any kind of comment like that. They obviously changed their mind if the line does not actually appear in the episode.

      Which is why we came to the conclusion that it was replaced (it was also proven too). The replacement quote was at the 129 towards 130 in which he stated "What an amazing guy" instead of the line that he was supposed to say.

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote: A magazine said that, it shouldn't be treated as anything other than opinion. The only thing we know for sure is: Enraged MUI > Burning Ultimate Warrior > MUI > Base FP Jiren > All GoDs

      Jiren literally had to break his limits to rival Beerus (who was comparable to 130 MUI Goku probably even higher)

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    • ArgosaxDespair wrote: A magazine said that, it shouldn't be treated as anything other than opinion. The only thing we know for sure is: Enraged MUI > Burning Ultimate Warrior > MUI > Base FP Jiren > All GoDs

      We don't know that for sure. Replace "All GoDs" with "Belmod" and that would be correct.

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    • Jesus Christ. Stop quoting each wall of text FFS.

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