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  • Continuation of this thread: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3690021

    Non-canonical Elements in SF: 

    Status: Resolved(Waiting for the canon page revision thread)

    E. Honda's Meteor Feat: 

    Status: To be considered an outlier until further notice

    So after some debating we began to notice that a lot of character profiles rely on scaling to characters and not their own feats so this thread is now about calcs for SF characters that need them and possibly some supporting calcs and calcs that could upgrade the verse, any suggestions are welcomed as long as they aren't obvious outliers (See E. Honda's ending).

    Feats that preferably need to be calced:

    Oni's Volcano Feat (Feat in video form: https://youtu.be/J4iAjYaxDz8?t=103)

    Fang's Arcade Ending (Feat in video form: https://youtu.be/Rb_lSB74tuQ?t=41)

    Gill's Revised SFIII Ending (Feat in video form: https://youtu.be/Gi-NrKEOC58?t=812

    Necro's SFIII 2nd Impact Ending (Feat in video form: https://youtu.be/tuokQbWj8ZM?t=22)

    Seperate Task: 

    Seperate Profiles for Evil Ryu/Kage and Oni

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    • Has somebody created non-canon profiles for Oni and Evil Ryu yet?

      Also, is somebody willing to find scans for the feats that need to be calculated and then ask the calc group for help?

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    • i added links to the feats in video form.

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    • Okay. Thanks. You should politely ask some calc group members (not DMUA, as he is too overworked as it is) to help out here in this thread.

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    • While we're at it
      Screenshot 20190704-232850
      Screenshot 20190704-233347

      (Sorry for bad quality)

      These two feats could be useful for finding out whether or not E. Honda's feat is an outlier.

      Hagger is considered to be around or above Honda and because of his absence in street fighter it shouldn't drastically change the scaling already established.

      https://youtu.be/dZoFjZkns4Y and since canon is being discussed (or was) then this would be another good showing for both Honda and Zangief


      The only other characters that scale above these grappler boiz are Sakura, Kairn, Main Shotos, Sub-bosses and final bosses so the scaling works. Kairn and Sakura got a huge buff in SFV and they don't lose to anyone that's weaker than the others mentioned.

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    • N-nani wrote:
      While we're at it
      Screenshot 20190704-232850
      Screenshot 20190704-233347

      (Sorry for bad quality)

      These two feats could be useful for finding out whether or not E. Honda's feat is an outlier.

      Hagger is considered to be around or above Honda and because of his absence in street fighter it shouldn't drastically change the scaling already established.

      https://youtu.be/dZoFjZkns4Y and since canon is being discussed (or was) then this would be another good showing for both Honda and Zangief


      The only other characters that scale above these grappler boiz are Sakura, Kairn, Main Shotos, Sub-bosses and final bosses so the scaling works. Kairn and Sakura got a huge buff in SFV and they don't lose to anyone that's weaker than the others mentioned.

      What are those pics? They are very low quality, could you give a link to a video where we can see the scene more clearly?

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    • Also, while we are talking about grapplers, why isn't there a profile for MY BOY HUGO?

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    • So Gills parting feat was calced at Island level and the calc got approved

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      So Gills parting feat was calced at Island level and the calc got approved

      link? (if it's offsite i swear to god)

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    • good but 6-C seems like it will be rejected though i personally think this would only scale to the god tiers and the god tiers are so far above a lot of characters that a case could be made that this isn't an outlier and if it's not....6-C akuma returns at last!

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    • Well the only weird scaling is SF3 Ryu beating Alex but that could be seen as an Outlier 

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    • https://youtu.be/fs1PPp1aeqg @Twellas

      This is where those screenshots come from


      And it's about time someone calced Gills ending

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    • is FFR canon?

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      Well the only weird scaling is SF3 Ryu beating Alex but that could be seen as an Outlier 

      it's implied that gill purposefully lost the fight because he saw alex's potential(or something) it wouldn't be the first time he lost a fight on purpose(see the SFIII: 2nd Impact ending)

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    • It should be, nothing in the game is contradictory and all the final fight games take place before street fighter

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    • idk man zombie belger seems pretty questionable.

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    • Streetwise on the other hand
      FeelsWeirdKang
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    • @Lavcore Belger is never shown again in canon and he is officially dead after revenge and the only reference to him afterward was that he is dead so it's not impossible

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    • ok yeah but did they ever mention zombie belger again?

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    • anyway i think we should wait for more calc members to comment on the gill calc as this is a huge upgrade.

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    • Ryu and Alex dont scale to it, Gill threw out the fight vs him most likely

      Plus Ryu lost to Oro which says that Ryu has a long way to go to even reach anywhere near a God Tier of the verse level, meanwhile to Akuma he is impressed

      This scales only to Gouken, Akuma, Oni, Oro, Evil Ryu/Kage

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    • Also it could be helpful if another feat is calced for god tiers to support the 6-C, that way it can be set in the stone the rating for them

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    • You can message a few other calc group members directly to confirm the Gill calculation if you wish.

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      So Gills parting feat was calced at Island level and the calc got approved

      MHHHH

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    • N-nani wrote:
      https://youtu.be/fs1PPp1aeqg @Twellas

      This is where those screenshots come from


      And it's about time someone calced Gills ending

      ok, I'm like 99% sure that that's an outlier even if we accept Honda's feat as legit, because that's FAR above island level

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    • Also I don't think that FFR is canon.

      I was just wondering, who does Hugo scale to? He's far stronger than fighters like Poison and in his 3S ending we see that he beat Ryu and Ken, but to who does he actually, reliably scale?

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    • I don't exactly know if Gill scales to this calculation of Oni triggering a volcanic eruption I saw on DA (keep in mind this is a calculation using the low-end value for mountain sizes) since this was Oni Akuma, but if Gill is comparable to Akuma like the profile says, He could possibly scale to this calculation. Making 6-C, possibly High 6-C consistent

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    • i swear to god one of these days i'm gonna make an offsite calc eval thread so we don't have to eval them in seperate CRT's.

      @squitwo

      offsite calc on DA=questionable(like most offsite calcs)

      also gill is comparable to base akuma not shin or oni.

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    • Ah, thanks for clarifying that and I understand they might not always be reliable, but I did look over the calculation and it mostly seems to be in order. I may not be a calc member or anything but I can say I've done plenty of KE feats like these before. And even with that said, Gill's feat would make Oni's more consistent at least.

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    • i think it would be preferable to have a calc for that feat here instead.

      plus there was only one comment on the calc itself.

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    • Hmmm, Aight

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    • Antvasima wrote: You can message a few other calc group members directly to confirm the Gill calculation if you wish.

      Anyone?

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    • Oni feat scales to him only, but it can help establish god tiers are at this level if his gets around tier 6 too

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    • Didn't Capcom release an official top 5 characters in terms of raw power list? Would all the characters there qualify for the same statistics as Gill?

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    • link to said list?

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    • It was on Youtube.

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    • Oni was at the top, I think.

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    • https://youtu.be/0zz4hxOy0CY

      I found this, but I don't know if it's official, but if it is then Gill is stronger than both Oro and Bison and below only Akuma 

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Here it is:

      https://youtu.be/0zz4hxOy0CY

      wow, sniped me there

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    • The video talks about Akuma destroying a meteorite, when did that happen?

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    • The video also says that the only character that could rival Oni is Ingrid from Capcom Fighting Evolution, I don't know who that is, is it relevant?

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    • i say take the video with a grain of salt also 

      Ingrid is not canon.

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    • Twellas wrote:
      https://youtu.be/0zz4hxOy0CY

      I found this, but I don't know if it's official, but if it is then Gill is stronger than both Oro and Bison and below only Akuma 

      This video was made by Capcom UK, it's not 100% reliable. Oro and Akuma are equals, and Akuma destroying a meteorite happened in his Capcom Fighting Evolution ending, which is also where Ingrid comes from, so she isn't canon to the SF storyline.

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:

      This scales only to Gouken, Akuma, Oni, Oro, Evil Ryu/Kage

      And Pre-Leukemia Gen.

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    • BrainSWord74 wrote:
      Twellas wrote:
      https://youtu.be/0zz4hxOy0CYI found this, but I don't know if it's official, but if it is then Gill is stronger than both Oro and Bison and below only Akuma 
      This video was made by Capcom UK, it's not 100% reliable. Oro and Akuma are equals, and Akuma destroying a meteorite happened in his Capcom Fighting Evolution ending, which is also where Ingrid comes from, so she isn't canon to the SF storyline.

      tbf the video basically uses comp Akuma, not base, it takes both Oni and Shin into consideration

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    • Forgot of Gen, him too

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    • Gill is obviously above Bison, plus from dialogues Akuma level characters say Gill is that strong

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    • The fact it uses non canon stuff like CFE meteor feat, its not rely reliable, as BrainSword said too, Oro and Akuma are equals

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    • Isn’t Akuma just slightly stronger then Oro?

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    • no indication was given, they are depicted as equals when they fought with no winner in that one

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    • Considering the video was also made before SFV because now black moons Bison is stronger than psycho drive (hell Fangs ending shows both which sounds like a ridiculously high upgrade) the only shaky stuff in said video is mentioning the meteor feat, even when Ingrid is brought up she's disregarded because of little info. The placing of each character works with the scaling. Oro is only equal to base Akuma since Shin or Oni haven't appeared in canon so if we were to scale those version they'd likely be the strongest in the verse.


      Actually now that I think about it, Shin Akuma technically non-canon to begin with, would using that feat even be a problem outside of being a potential outlier? Shin Akuma has like no feats outside of that and fighting Evil Ryu doesn't even count since Evil Ryu doesn't have many feats either. Base Akuma is already capable of one shotting Alpha 3 Bison and Kage got....BFRed?.... Dispelled?.... What the hell did Akuma do to Kage actually?

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    • Shin Akuma is canon, he appeared one time canonically, he is just featless

      The feat is from a crossover game, you cant count it no matter what

      He knocked Kage down with that move he shouted, Kage left after, you can hear him jump away after the hit

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    • Isn’t Shin Akuma Akuma going all out?

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    • Shin Akuma is him going all out and has no more moral code on him at all, pretty much a lesser demonic Oni to put it simply

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    • N-nani wrote:
      Oro is only equal to base Akuma since Shin or Oni haven't appeared in canon so if we were to scale those version they'd likely be the strongest in the verse.

      Shin Akuma is canon, Oni isn't. One-Handed Oro was able to hold Base Akuma to a stalemate, and they both know they'd kill each other if they used their true strength. Akuma's battle with Kage was spiritual, Kage doesn't have a physical body.

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    • With Gill's feat as 6-C is actually pretty good in general due the gap between the top and god tiers of Street Fighter main timeline and due being the second 6-C feat, or third if Oni's feat gets similar results when recalc.

      I'm still iffy to considering Kage in the same category as Akuma due he didn't fought Kage with all his might (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjQ8F3pLzw&t=337s) and Ryu wasn't even scared of him at all.

      Also, this means that it could make a case to E. Honda's Meteor feat as 7-A instead of a 6-C feat, but is probably for the better to wait until the rest of feats were analysed.

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    • PuasLuisZX wrote:
      I'm still iffy to considering Kage in the same category as Akuma due he didn't fought Kage with all his might (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFjQ8F3pLzw&t=337s) and Ryu wasn't even scared of him at all.

      Kage is basically Oni, the SnH entity. The only difference is that Kage is Ryu's shadow while Oni is Akuma's shadow. He's the strongest char, he just needs a vessel.

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    • @ant

      i asked spino to eval the gill calc.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • Chagghe
      Wait, wouldn't Kage's Arcade ending make Oni canon? And Kage seems to be comparable to him, so he scales
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    • His arcade ending isnt known if its canon, especially since in his own story he vanquishes away after Ryu ignored him

      Where do you see Kage comparable to Oni? All we are given is that they will battle, yet we dont know how it will go down at all

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    • Lavcore wrote: @ant

      i asked spino to eval the gill calc.

      You can ask a few others as well, if you wish.

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:
      His arcade ending isnt known if its canon, especially since in his own story he vanquishes away after Ryu ignored him

      Where do you see Kage comparable to Oni? All we are given is that they will battle, yet we dont know how it will go down at all

      the fact that Kage calls it a Deathmatch is already enough of proof that they are comparable, Kage is also another Satsui No Hadou embodiment just like Oni

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    • Twellas wrote:

      the fact that Kage calls it a Deathmatch is already enough of proof that they are comparable, Kage is also another Satsui No Hadou embodiment just like Oni

      Kage doesnt call it a Deathmatch, where are you seeing Kage speaking?Thats the narration of the ending by narrator and that alone isnt proof to be comparable to another, neither that them being the same thing does

      We dont even see how the match even goes or who wins, you just make big assumptions here with evidence to back it up, Oni is the only character that would scale to his feat

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    • If Kage is as strong as Oni (or at least enough to give him a battle to the death) then wouldn't that decrease the gap between it and Akuma?

      Along with the implications that Ryu or Sagat could even survive such an encounter?

      Not that those characters aren't strong but Oni is a whole other league.

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    • Ryu and Sagat wont get anything out of it, in fiction many low tiered characters survive encounters with other above their league, but that doesnt change anything for them

      Kage cant be assumed to be on Oni level if there isnt enough proof of that, a deathmatch doesnt equal the characters are on par with each other

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:
      Twellas wrote:

      the fact that Kage calls it a Deathmatch is already enough of proof that they are comparable, Kage is also another Satsui No Hadou embodiment just like Oni

      Kage doesnt call it a Deathmatch, where are you seeing Kage speaking?Thats the narration of the ending by narrator and that alone isnt proof to be comparable to another, neither that them being the same thing does

      We dont even see how the match even goes or who wins, you just make big assumptions here with evidence to back it up, Oni is the only character that would scale to his feat

      the text box LITERALLY has "SFV Kage" written on top of it, which is how SF5 conveys who is talking. "Deathmatch" literally means "fight to the death" and requires both opponents to be at least equal in order to be called as such 

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    • a "fight to the death" is ALWAYS between two at least comparable opponents because it implies that either fighter could die

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    • It is much better that we focus on getting something constructive done here than derail with unnecessary discussion.

      For example, has anybody asked some of the calc group members to evaluate the Gill calculation blog yet?

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    • and even if it's not Kage speaking but the narrator, even better! Because we would know FOR A FACT that it's gonna be a deathmatch and it's not just the character's opinion

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      It is much better that we focus on getting something constructive done here than derail with unnecessary discussion.

      For example, has anybody asked some of the calc group members to evaluate the Gill calculation blog yet?

      This discussion is very much necessary, it could add another god tier to the verse

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    • @Antvasima

      So far only DMUA has approved

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    • If DMUA has approved the calculation, we can probably use it now.

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    • @Twellas

      Can you stop with your head canons and assumptions?

      First of all the SF4 arcade ending grom.that game for example isnt Evil Ryu talking there, him talking in that one is when the " " appear, none of the arcade endings are the characters talking

      Second of all a death match or fight to the death isnt =/= characters comparable to another other, unless you wanna say Giorno and Diavolo in their last battle both were comparable when its clear the other was way above the league for his opponent

      Kage isnt comparable to Oni and Oni isnt canon, trying to scale to a character he never fought at all

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    • The discussion isnt needed, Oni is the strongest god tier of the verse, Kage already has anyway his feat of beating Akuma before he gets knocked back by him and leaves

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    • Yeah didn’t we agree Oni wasn’t canon at all and is only a hypothetical transformation for Akuma

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    • bump and please PLEASE don't be disrespectful to eachother and argue respectfully without coming off as rude.

      @ant

      i'll ask another calc member then

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    • @ant

      i asked executor to eval the calc.

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    • Thanks, but I do not know if that is necessary, given that the calculation has been approved.

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    • I think it'd be better if we got those other feats calced (Necros ending, onis volcano feat and fangs SFV ending)

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    • You can ask here and mention that I would appreciate the help: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3760369

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    • bump

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    • Should we apply scaling from the Gill feat?

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    • Wasnt agreed to wait for the other feats before this?

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    • I am not sure if much is going to happen on that front, so it seems better if we at least get something done.

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    • i think we need matt to agree first.

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    • Not necessarily. The calculation has been accepted. However, you can ask him to comment here again first if you wish.

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    • well i think we need a knowledgeable staff member to accept the scaling from this feat and whether it's an outlier or not IMO anyway i asked matt to comment here on if the feat is an outlier or not.

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    • Okay. Thanks. I personally think that it seems straightforward enough to use.

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    • The only people that can scale to Gill are:

      • Oni
      • Shin Akuma
      • Oro
      • Shit I guess that's it.

      So no, his feat being 6-C isn't an outlier.

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    • Wouldnt base Akuma also scale?

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    • No.

      Gill is stronger.

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    • I mean, the main problem I see is that Alex canonically defeated Gill, with the former being defeated by Ryu after an unknown period of time had passed.

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    • KarmodF wrote:
      I mean, the main problem I see is that Alex canonically defeated Gill, with the former being defeated by Ryu after an unknown period of time had passed.

      Gill let himself be defeated.

      Just like when Shin Akuma hit him with the Shun Goku Satsu, which Gill let himself be hit with, only to revive from the blow afterwards.

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    • Seems fine then, is Oro still the strongest character?

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    • The strongest character is Ingrid actually, followed by Oni then Oro and Gill.

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    • I would say she is more of a crossover character rather than a SF one, but my knowledge goes as far as SF4 so idk what makes her stronger than Oro.

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    • @matt

      again ingrid ain't canon she's a guest character who was never mentioned again in the series.

      also were was it said that gill was stronger than base akuma?

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    • also yeah gill was probably holding back in his fight against alex and let himself get defeated wouldn't be the first time actually remember when he "lost" against urien so that he could become emperor?

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: The only people that can scale to Gill are:

      • Oni
      • Shin Akuma
      • Oro
      • Shit I guess that's it.

      So no, his feat being 6-C isn't an outlier.

      Thanks. This seems fine to apply then,

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    • Matthew Schroeder wrote: The strongest character is Ingrid actually, followed by Oni then Oro and Gill.

      Ingrid in her story of the single game she was in, said with her words it takes her 30 minutes to beat Bison, she isnt the strongest if she needs that much against a character that those like Akuma can put down way faster

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    • Also akuma is the one who does the raging demon on Gill, after you win a round he goes Shin

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    • well to be fair Akuma needed to use the raging demon to take Bison out easily

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    • That doesnt take away anything from Bison being weaker then him

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    • yeah he definitely is

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    • i'm still wondering where it was stated/shown gill is stronger than base akuma

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    • Well, the official ranking video said that he is stronger than Shin Akuma, but weaker than Oni.

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    • ehhh again i take that video with a grain of salt i don't really think it should be used when most of gills fights end in him losing on purpose(see dudleys ending, threw the fight against alex and he purposefully lost to urien to get promoted to emperor) or him stomping his opponent(see his story mode in SFV) he's never really had a "fight" against akuma and got Shun Goku Satsu'd because akuma thought he was a prick.

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    • speaking of gill getting raging demon'd why doesn't he have resist to soul manip if his soul wasn't destroyed by akuma's shun goku satsu? seems pretty straight forward would it be fine to add now or should i make a CRT?

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    • I guess because he still has the Funny Resurrection which allowed him to come back

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    • Resistance to Soul Manipulation seems fine.

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    • alright should i add it now?

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    • Feel free.

      Also, which characters should scale from the Gill feat?

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    • well if base akuma scales(which i think he does) then gen,oro,oni,kage/evil ryu,gouken and akuma.

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    • Okay. I think that Gill is likely stronger than base Akuma though.

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    • I mean is Gill consistently said to be stronger then Akuma? We could always just scale Akuma via possibly being comparable to Gill since both are consistently portrayed as top tier characters in lore

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    • I suppose that likely makes sense.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay. I think that Gill is likely stronger than base Akuma though.

      Didn't Akuma body Gill though?

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    • with the shun goku satsu but they never really "fought" basically akuma did to gill what he did to bison in SFII

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    • Okay. If they can still cause serious damage to each other, they should scale though.

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    • @Lavcore

      I still think Akuma would be stronger.

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    • doesn't really matter all that matters is if base akuma is comparable or not which he is so akuma scales.

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    • ok.

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    • I dont think his soul survived, Gill was down after the raging demon, that ressurection could have restored his soul back, there aint evidence to say his soul wasnt destroyed

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    • Also dont think it was anywhere said Gill> Akuma, you can assume he might be around the same levels as him

      Also that video of Capcom ranking them us outdated, they mention a non canon crossover feat for Akuma which would put him at High 6-A and mention of Ingrid potentially being a character that can challenge Oni, but she herself said in the game she debuted as i already said it takes her 30 minutes to put down Bison, her words contradict what they say of her here

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    • Anyone who is considerable stronger than Ryu and M. Bison should be able to be up to consideration for the 6-C update Keep in mind that being stronger doesn't necessarily mean that the weaker foe couldn't scale, especially in close calls. I can easily see base Akuma being on par to Gill due how the franchise puts both of them at God levels of strength.

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    • Akuma is pretty much overall put as the franchise strongest characters with few comparing to him at all, he should scale to any feat in the verse except of those like Oni or such

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    • So is somebody willing to apply the agreed upon statistics changes?

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    • i can do it but akuma's profile is locked

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    • oh nvm

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    • Which profiles do I need to unlock for you other than Akuma (Street Fighter)?

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    • ah nvm akuma's profile is still unlocked but i don't think any other profiles that need to be changed are protected.

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    • Okay.

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    • With the inclusion of Gills feat, how does E Honda's hold up?

      While Honda is weaker than gill he was badly damaged and that wasn't something he can do on his own but on the other hand he didn't die and even survived the fall back down. (assumably) As mentioned earlier, Honda is already considered a stronger character in the verse due to the often comparison with Zangief and this wouldn't even be the first time Honda was used as a weapon. (i.e. Alpha 3)


      The gap between those feats is big enough to substantiate the gap between Gill and Honda. But at the same time, The grappler boiz and schoolgirls are weaker than Ryu, Bison, etc leaving their tiering a little ambiguous since they don't have feats that high (unless Fangs ending gets calced to something akin to it)

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    • N-nani wrote:
      With the inclusion of Gills feat, how does E Honda's hold up?

      While Honda is weaker than gill he was badly damaged and that wasn't something he can do on his own but on the other hand he didn't die and even survived the fall back down. (assumably) As mentioned earlier, Honda is already considered a stronger character in the verse due to the often comparison with Zangief and this wouldn't even be the first time Honda was used as a weapon. (i.e. Alpha 3)


      The gap between those feats is big enough to substantiate the gap between Gill and Honda. But at the same time, The grappler boiz and schoolgirls are weaker than Ryu, Bison, etc leaving their tiering a little ambiguous since they don't have feats that high (unless Fangs ending gets calced to something akin to it)

      E. Honda's Meteor feat as a 6-C feat is still very high even if it's lower than Gill feat. However in a comment mentioned before, as a 7-A feat, it could be a thing instead of an outlier. But is probably for the better to wait until the rest of feats were analysed.

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    • I thought it was just high 7-A '_'

      But yeah, the other feats need to be evaluated

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    • I think that it seems reasonable that most of the Street Fighter characters are not extremely far apart in terms of raw power. Meaning, I don't mind using the Honda calculation.

      Anyway, is somebody willing to update the profiles scaling from the Gill feat to start with?

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    • Even with Gill feat, E Honda feat is pretty much close in numbers to his feat if taking the 6-C result and the guy is not even a strong or relevant character

      Even with his 7-A result, those above him at their best couldnt get anything past 7-B, a feat of a god tier doesnt mean E Honda one is more acceptable, we need feats of characters way more around his level to even count that as legit

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    • But anyway 6-C should be applied to those that compare to Gill

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    • Yes. Feel free to do so.

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:

      Even with his 7-A result, those above him at their best couldnt get anything past 7-B, a feat of a god tier doesnt mean E Honda one is more acceptable, we need feats of characters way more around his level to even count that as legit

      The thing is that he is a high tier character and that most of the 7-B to Low 7-C feats were mostly Pre-SFV feats, so more feats from someone aorund his level (high to mid tiers of the series) could just be a more of the akin of SFV feats. The best for now is to wait until the other feats are evaluated, especially since M. Bison and Ryu with Power of Nothingness don't have any evaluated feat that is higher than E Honda feat.

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    • Okay. So is somebody (finally) willing to apply the Gill calculation result?

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    • if everyone is fine with it i can do it now(couldn't do it before had to sleep)

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    • question: would island level durability be fine?

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    • Yes, you should update the tiers to "6-C", the attack potencies and durabilities to "Island level", the striking strengths to "Island Class", and the tier categories from "Tier 7" to "Tier 6".

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    • done.

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    • Thank you.

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    • PuasLuisZX wrote: The thing is that he is a high tier character and that most of the 7-B to Low 7-C feats were mostly Pre-SFV feats, so more feats from someone aorund his level (high to mid tiers of the series) could just be a more of the akin of SFV feats. The best for now is to wait until the other feats are evaluated, especially since M. Bison and Ryu with Power of Nothingness don't have any evaluated feat that is higher than E Honda feat.

      E Honda wasnt a high tier character, Ryu or Bison are as such, also its still questionable that he has such a high rated feat despite he didnt had anything remotely close either and i dont remember the gaps between the games to be that big, except in SF3 and maybe SF1 till later on

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    • Still, even if E.Honda is only supposed to be a medium-tiered character, are the Street Fighters not still supposed to all be able to cause damage to each other? Meaning, it makes sense that the difference between them would more be in skill, speed, and versatility than raw power. As such, I personally do not mind scaling Honda and equal or stronger characters to his feat.

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    • That would go for all fighting games as well if saying the difference is skill and what not only, but thing is, while skill and such plays a factor, its made clear some characters are above the others by other means too, like how many characters can even compare to Ryu physically or pull off his feats?Cant say all or majority compare to him in strength

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    • Hmm. I am uncertain. Personally I do not mind scaling Ryu and the others from Honda.

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    • i think we need more supporting feats for the e. honda feat to be accepted.

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    • Okay then. What is left to do here?

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    • still need calcs for F.A.N.G's ending, necro's ending and oni's ending.

      i think we can put the calc for gill's revised ending on hold for now.

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    • Well, you should ask some calc group members for help then, or nothing will ever happen.

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    • i asked alex and ugarik for help here.

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    • Okay. Thanks.

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    • What feats have been calced so far? Any links to blogs? A compilation would be good.

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    • Well, Ugarik just said that the Gill calculation is exaggerated/inaccurate, so we may have to revert those edits after it has been re-done.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, Ugarik just said that the Gill calculation is exaggerated/inaccurate, so we may have to revert those edits after it has been re-done.

      F in the comment sections

      Well then we need the other feats calced then to make up for this somehow

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    • Well, let's see what it is calculated as first.

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    • I just asked that.

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    • Okay.

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    • So far there is no other feat calculated from the ones suggested

      The Gill one needs a recalc if it was said to be wrong, F.A.N.G. if possible could be useful for scaling those like Bison and above

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    • Has somebody informed SquiTwo about that his calculation needs to be redone?

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    • We should wait for the recalc before we remove the statistics.

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    • No one needs to inform me, I've already said on the calculation that it needs a recalc and I am working on it. Just busy with life

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    • Okay. No problem. Thank you for helping out.

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    • Did I just hear E. Honda?

      This feat - latest news is:

      Also, F.A.N.G's ending seems to suggest only he created some doomsday device that can wreak global havoc. Almost sounds like making ~4 Tsar Bomba and shooting them all over the world.

      Gill's Moses feat is under overhaul. SquiTwo is doing this - give him time.

      Oni (Street Fighter)'s volcano eruption feat... afaik volcano eruption AP yield varies A LOT. Needs more input data before doing the calc.

      Necro (Street Fighter)'s island explosion tanking feat... Looks very weird. But can be a massive outlier, or he has somewhere to shelter anyway.

      Also - Street Fighter's Bonus Stage where a car was half-destroyed within 40 seconds, destroying one wood barrel with one punch, or six metal barrels within 14 seconds. - Scales to all Street Fighter characters - including Dan Hibiki.

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    • Well, I'm still going to wait to the Calc revision of this Calc.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PuasLuisZX/Black_Moons:_F.A.N.G_Ending

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    • PuasLuisZX wrote:
      Well, I'm still going to wait to the Calc revision of this Calc.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PuasLuisZX/Black_Moons:_F.A.N.G_Ending

      This sounds nice, but who scales to it? I assume only applicable to prep time F.A.N.G, M. Bison with complete Psycho Driver, and any character stronger than them.

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    • It would scaled to anyone above M. Bison, the New York one would be fine for SFV Ryu and SFV M. Bison at the very least.

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    • Jasonsith wrote:
      Did I just hear E. Honda?

      This feat - latest news is:

      Also, F.A.N.G's ending seems to suggest only he created some doomsday device that can wreak global havoc. Almost sounds like making ~4 Tsar Bomba and shooting them all over the world.

      Gill's Moses feat is under overhaul. SquiTwo is doing this - give him time.

      Oni (Street Fighter)'s volcano eruption feat... afaik volcano eruption AP yield varies A LOT. Needs more input data before doing the calc.

      Necro (Street Fighter)'s island explosion tanking feat... Looks very weird. But can be a massive outlier, or he has somewhere to shelter anyway.

      Also - Street Fighter's Bonus Stage where a car was half-destroyed within 40 seconds, destroying one wood barrel with one punch, or six metal barrels within 14 seconds. - Scales to all Street Fighter characters - including Dan Hibiki.

      Necro never tanked that explosion, he was freed and supposedly saved by Effie, his girl

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    • @Twellas

      So is a speed feat for most characters not called Dan Hibiki and about the destruction of the island, I don't really know if is going to be scaled to anyone. We had a sub relativistic to MHS feat before and good MHS+ feats so it might be good enough.

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    • It would scale to Gill with prep 

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    • Please don't quote long posts unless it is necessary.

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    • Actually I doubt Base Ryu, M. Bison and anyone stronger or comparable would scale to the attack speed of the laser in my calculation who would be Mach 5633.591655.

      @PuasLuisZX + @Twellas

      That cannot even be a speed feat as we do not know if Necro and Effie just find a safe spot and hide there.

      Ah the Street Fighter bonus stage I talk about. So Dan Hibiki would be 779689.8701 J per punch minimum or 44,732,125.43 J / 40s = 1,118,303.136 J/s.

      And the speed feat... Should all SF characters be "At least Transonic" for dodging Guile's Sonic Boom that travels at exactly the speed of sound (unless otherwise stated) (I would say peak human to superhuman speed for Dan Hibiki and Sean). (But then, can comic book feat be used for game characters? Dan's speed feat comes from the comic book. Unless you want transonic Dan for dodging Sonic Boom)

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:PuasLuisZX/Black_Moons:_F.A.N.G_Ending

      And looks like Akuma 6-C can remain unless we can find something to object.

      But now, can we talk about how this could work on Ryu and M. Bison, since this is the feat that upgrades both of them.

      I have three options in mind to talk about.

      The first one would give both of them the Tier 7-A to baseline High 7-A, due the Black Moon set in New York was activated in Story Mode. Even by halving of the calc due Charlie weakened M. Bison and the black moons not longer being capable to be activated would still gave both of them.

      The second one is giving M. Bison a Tier 6-C key, called "With the Black Moons activated" due the canon page changing.

      The thrid one is giving then the At least 7-A, posibly or at most 6-C.

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    • that seems fine but what about gill's revised ending? that one could use a calc now since the gill calc is gonna be changed soon.

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    • The Revised Street Fighter V ending? That might not be required due the big importance of the Black Moons in V and III is solid enough to not be considered an outlier. However, if I could tell from the image it might be just a bit more than baseline 7-B, if I use the average of the mountain size acceptable in this wiki.

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    • Wait, the mountain is now on similar levels to the depth of the sea? If that's the case then, it might be way higher than what I expected. But, this might be a lot higher than expected. Emphasis on the word "might".

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    • It seems flike the Fang calculation has been accepted. The Gill feat still needs a recalculation though.

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    • I'm sorry to hold you guys up. I have finished the Gill calc and will be posting it today definitely but I'm still pretty busy. All I'm gonna say is that after the recalc, He most I've gotten with this revision is Large Town level+.

      EDIT: Actually had time to upload the calc from my Drive to the wiki

      If anyone wants to take a look,

      User_blog:SquiTwo/Gill_pulls_a_Moses_(Recalc)

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    • Looks like i was right long ago when i said Gill feat wont give anything beyond Large Town or such after all, well would you look at that now

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    • As for the Black Moon thing, Bison imo should be the only one scaling to it, since its an amp for himself, others scaling to it its iffy since we dont know how much powerful this Bison was compared to the other characters like Akuma or Gill for example

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    • I mean, Gill looks also capable to be comparable to characters like Bison with the Amp due his plan involved the use of Black Moons in Illuminati's plan via the ending calling Gill the savior of the catastrophe of the Black Moons, the ones Bison used before, keep in mind that there's no implication as Gill also using the Amps meaning that he's just as powerful as the Black Moons itself. So that's a good point into consideration as comparation. So it's possible to scale him to the 6-C feat as well, and this makes an argument about characters comparable to Gill.

      As for Ryu, he can also upgrade into the 7-A territory due the New York Black Moon was activated which is 764.82 Megatons. Yes, Charlie Nash sacrifies himself to weakend Bison, the amount of energy absorbed was unknow and the absorb of New York already happened, so Rashid desactivating the weapons doesn't mean that Bison lost that energy, just that there's no more cities in danger and thus he no longer can ansorb the rest of the energy.

      Even by assuming that Charlie Nash absorbed half of Bison energy, this would still give Ryu an upgrade due after Bison being defeated, the base was destroyed due the lack of his power getting an increase.

      Gill Black Moons
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    • Why would Ryu scale to 7-A first of all?From what we gonna base this off of?

      Im still a bit iffy since Bison was made a big deal with the black moon amp, plus the god tiers best feats are way lower then this Bison in the SF5 story tier wise by a lot, which is why i think only Bison should scale to this

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    • @ant

      can you revert the edits made to the profiles upgraded to 6-C?

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    • Can you post links to all of the affected profiles here?

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    • Okay. Thanks. I will handle it.

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    • I have done so.

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    • Well that buff lasted all of thirteen seconds. At least Gill vs Orochi is fair again. Speaking of Gill, I have two major questions.

      1: Where does Gill's Low-Mid regen come from?

      2: Shouldn't Gill have Immortality (Type 4), since there doesn't seem to be any real limit outside of game mechanics as to how many times he can resurrect?

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    • The Smashor wrote:
      Well that buff lasted all of thirteen seconds. At least Gill vs Orochi is fair again.

      Speaking of Gill, I have two major questions.

      1: Where does Gill's Low-Mid regen come from?

      2: Shouldn't Gill have Immortality (Type 4), since there doesn't seem to be any real limit outside of game mechanics as to how many times he can resurrect?

      Even if we consider game mechanics, he can resurrect only when he his super art gauge was full. And if the characters successively defeated him with soul-based attacks (like the Raging Demon), he could not resurrect anymore. (UDON Ryu defeated Gill once and for all with Raging Demon.)

      So it should depend on his "soul energy" storage, or just say as long as he has a soul he could resurrect?

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    • @Jason

      The Super Art Gauge more or less is game mechanics. And the Evil Ryu killing him in UDON is directly contradicted by him easily surviving Akuma's version of the move. And Evil Ryu isn't stronger than Akuma. Is UDON even canon?

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    • the UDON comics shouldn't be used as evidence and didn't he resurrect after being hit with the Raging Demon?

      @smashor

      no look at the verse page.

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    • The raging demon destroyed his soul, nothing suggests as far as i know his soul survived, his ressurection can bring him back even from soul destruction

      Also did Gill shown any regeneration at all?That low mid regen is strange there since there wasnt an instance of him healing from anything 

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    • Since @jasonsith brought up in-game feats, Dan Hibiki might get an upgrade from SF4

      On the airport stage if you uppercut a character below the wing of the plane it breaks off about half of the wing.

      Also, in 3rd strike, Hugo and Alex's stage has some miscellaneous items in the background and if there is a hard knockdown or throw, everything bounces up about 3 or 4 feet in the air. SFV also has this on the New York stage we're you could tip over a car or break a fire hydrant in the background.

      Because it isn't from direct contact and in SFVs case it's a safe distance from the fight it could constitute a higher tier like small building lvl. Granted a very low small building but nonetheless still in tier

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    • So does somebody have a summary of what we need to do here at this point? Feats that need to be calculated and the like.

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    • So basically:

      Agreed

      To do

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    • For E Honda feat to be even considered legit, other feats need to be at least close to his, two god tiers have their feats not even 7-B and others dont have any feats casually that are close to it either, so at this point its clear cut that cant be used and it will remain as an outlier

      We need to see Oni feat how strong it is, he might be one if the few that scales to the amped up Bison

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:
      For E Honda feat to be even considered legit, other feats need to be at least close to his, two god tiers have their feats not even 7-B and others dont have any feats casually that are close to it either, so at this point its clear cut that cant be used and it will remain as an outlier

      We need to see Oni feat how strong it is, he might be one if the few that scales to the amped up Bison

      Here is the tricky part:

      the point where it seems outlier counts at where E. Honda would be stopping and destroying the meteor when the meteor was deemed 2000 m above the sky, i.e. the 830,547,491.28 ton TNT (Mountain+) end. (And actually stopping the KE part of the meteor was yielding much more than the destruction part.) Destroying a smaller meteor or just counting the meteor part and ignoring the speed stopping part will yield much less values. See my table again and look at the ends where values vary from 1.64 ton TNT (Building+) to 4,315,685.47 tons TNT (Small City+).

      Oni erupted a volcano and with the examples from Captain Nancy and Linne (and should be one more from Kazuya Mishima) we know by now how much it yields to dig a hole to reach lava and to have lava erupt from the hole.

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    • @Jason

      Thanks.

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    • @Jason

      The Kazuya one isnt known how strong it is, plus its in a volcanic area, it can be more then the values of the other two

      What do you suggest with what you told me for E Honda?Plus the feat had a recalc so why link an old one for it

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:
      @Jason

      The Kazuya one isnt known how strong it is, plus its in a volcanic area, it can be more then the values of the other two

      Honestly about Kazuya, it has some calcs that place him on baseline 7-A. But, it might be higher. I don't know a lot about Tekken as much as I know about Street Fighter, but that's a topic for another thread.

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    • As far as i know there isnt a calc to put it at 7-A, unless i have been missing something, but if you wanna talk of it, i made a thread to discuss things for the series there

      But anyway back to this, Oni volcano feat can be at least close to the black moon Bison power plus he did it casually

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    • Triggering a volcano by blasting a small hole in a continental plate fault does not automatically scale to the entire force of the resulting eruption though.

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    • i feel like we should get ugarik's input on the F.A.N.G calc just to be sure.

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    • Okay.

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    • Made the Oni page that Ant was asking about. Y'all can update the tier when the calc stuff is done.

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • And I just added a link to oni's page on akuma and  a link to akumas page on oni

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    • No problem

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    • https://youtu.be/TVFv40QNteU?t=1087

      Apparently if Cody wasn't holding back he might survive a fight with Oni according to the latter.

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    • Anttron224 wrote:
      https://youtu.be/TVFv40QNteU?t=1087

      Apparently if Cody wasn't holding back he might survive a fight with Oni according to the latter.

      I'd rather say, according to the story lore, Oni held back a lot.

      Theoretically we could have a Dan Hibiki won Oni in the game but VSBW would not scale Dan even close to Oni.

      Now I think about the FANG nuke feat: blasting multiple nukes as being considered AP for prep time F.A.N.G, while legit as a prep time AP feat, may not scale to even any people if we think about it. Like if we can press a button and launch a nuke it does not make us the Hulk.

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    • Yeah, but Oni never stated Dan holding back would be his demise. He did for Cody. I didn't bring it up for scaling, I just thought it was interesting.

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    • Anttron224 wrote:
      https://youtu.be/TVFv40QNteU?t=1087

      Apparently if Cody wasn't holding back he might survive a fight with Oni according to the latter.

      That's just speculation. The quote is more about the concept of Cody holding back rather than how powerful Cody is. Oni basically noticed that Cody doesn't always use his true strength, so Oni asks him to fight to his full potential if he doesn't want to die that quickly.

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    • I added the Oni profile to the tabber for all of the Akuma pages.

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    • Could I ask more info about Necro's SFIII 2nd Impact Ending?

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    • What is left to do here?

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    • Currently I need to add both F.A.N.G and M. Bison pages a new keys that are "with Preparation" and "Black Moon M. Bison" respectively. Aside from the remaining feats to be calculated and revised so far, taking the list of Jasonsith, there are things left to do.

      • Who is stronger than a Black Moon M. Bison so that the Black Moon feat scales (for the moment only himself and F.A.N.G with preparation)
      • Check if Dan Hibiki is a stronger Wall Level for destroying a car within 40 seconds and breaking a wood barrel
      • Check if Dan is this strong for breaking an airplane wing
      • New feats for replacing Chun-Li Kikusho
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    • Okay. Thanks for helping out.

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    • Could you unlock M. Bison page please?

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    • Okay. I will unlock the M. Bison page. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Okay. I will unlock the M. Bison page. Tell me here when you are done.

      All please check, thanks.

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    • Why likely higher too?

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    • "Likely higher"?

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    • On Bison 6-C key, it has likely higher, was asking why is that 

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    • The "Likely higher" comes from the fact that the Black Moon is added to the existing powers of M. Bison. If anyone disagrees with a reason, please suggest.

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    • that should be removed, i see no reason why bison would be stronger than that feat when amped.

      on a side note akuma does not have dura neg via shun goku satsu........what?

      @jasonsith

      7-B power being added to 6-C power makes no difference to the 6-C power, this is common sense.

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    • Deleted the "likely higher" notation

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    • Thank you for helping out. Should I lock the profile then? Also, what else should we do here?

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    • Dont think there is anything else for M Bison, it should be locked

      I guess Dan was brought up if he could go above wall level and such from some feats

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    •  
      • Who is stronger than a Black Moon M. Bison so that the Black Moon feat scales (for the moment only himself and F.A.N.G with preparation)
      • Check if Dan Hibiki is a stronger Wall Level for destroying a car within 40 seconds and breaking a wood barrel
      • Check if Dan is this strong for breaking an airplane wing
      • New feats for replacing Chun-Li Kikusho

      still have to do dan stuff and scaling to black moon bison.

      i think akuma should scale to black moon bison he is consistently portrayed and shown to be the god tier of the verse now which version of akuma that will scale to the feat is up for debate at the very least oni scales to it since he is the strongest SF character until further notice.

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    • To be honest Oni should be the only one to scale, given his volcano feat apparently was like High 7-A and casually

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    • Oni should scale to the fully energy of the Black Moon M. Bison, since the volcano feat is going to be probably higher, on the 6-C to be more precise.

      You can argue about God and possibly High Tiers in Street Fighter scaling into the activation of one of the Black Moons in Story Mode, the one that was activated on New York which is 764.82 megatons, due two characters weaker than them, Charlie Nash and Ryu were able to fight against M. Bison for some period of time and in the former that was before the deactivation, even if we divide the result on 1/4 (191.205 megatons) the energy realised due M. Bison still won against Nash. That would still be consistent with the current scaling and considering Ryu was able to one-shot a weakened M. Bison with the Power of Nothingness.

      In particular, SFV Ryu with the Power of Nothingness and SFV M. Bison can get the 764.82 megatons or 7-A+, while Ryu, Charlie Nash and a weakened M. Bison had the 191.205 megatons or 7-A. The god tiers should go into "At least 7-A, likely far higher".

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    • @PuasLuisZX

      Thread:3860303#240

      Nice if you can back them up with scans and make them blogs.

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    • Jasonsith wrote:
      @PuasLuisZX

      Thread:3860303#240

      Nice if you can back them up with scans and make them blogs.

      Sure. That would take me some time due redaction, but yeah, I could make a separate blog to do that.

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    • What do we need to do here in summary?

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    • Why wouldn't Akuma and Oro scale to Full Moons Bibson? Oro is on par with Akuma, and Akuma could easily stomp Nash and Ryu, as well as being confirmed the strongest being in Street Fighter, excluding Oni (which is just a more beefed up Akuma anyay).

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    • Who would Evil Ryu and Kage scale to?

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    • Because Black Moon Bison is an amp and nobody in the series, not even god tiers displayed any feat comparable to him, plus Oro and Akuma are above Bison normally, not an amped one

      Oni with his feat and WOG makes him the only one possible to scale to

      Evil Ryu and Kage scale to Akuma as they are depicted as comparable to him

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    • We might need that somebody starts a new continuation thread for this, with an easy to understand summary of the discussion so far in the beginning. After that they can ask all of the staff and experienced members who took part in this discussion to respond to the new one as well.

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    • @PuasLuisZX

      Why should we scale Ryu and other to one of the Black Moons? Based on what proof?



      Also last i checked the Oni calc it still didnt reach 6-C even with what you suggested



      I disagree scaling them to these unless there is good reasons for it

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    • I still think that you should follow the advise that I gave in my last post, as we won't get enough input from staff and knowledgeable members otherwise.

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    • I myself am stuck with other things at the moment, so if anyone else from here is willing to do it, then i welcome them

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    • Okay.

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    • >Also last i checked the Oni calc it still didnt reach 6-C even with what you suggested

      Then is there any calc blog for the argument?

      >We might need that somebody starts a new continuation thread for this, with an easy to understand summary of the discussion so far in the beginning. After that they can ask all of the staff and experienced members who took part in this discussion to respond to the new one as well.

      Someone may need to rewrite the OP in this thread instead. The feats we are discussing are more or less the same. Some achieved and can be marked with "done" - others are "pending".

      (Say now we have implemented Black Moon M. Bison and prep time FANG. And also barrel busting Dan.)

      Oni's Volcano Feat (Feat in video form: https://youtu.be/J4iAjYaxDz8?t=103) is still needing a calc blog to determine its yield.

      Gill parting the ocean is deemed not impressive as an AP feat.

      What we truly further need is a new scaling for (since bullet dodging and kikusho are anime feat(?)). And sadly the E. Honda meteor busting feat is deemed an outlier.

      • Dodging a Sonic Boom can be "at least transonic possibly supersonic" - for non-Dan (possibly non-Sean) low to mid tiers
      • Mid to high tiers can be scaled to Ryu powered M. Bison busting a city with a satellite laser.
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    • Oni's feat already has a calc

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Z%27s_Universe/Street_Fighter_Calc:_Oni_makes_a_volcano_go_boom

      Oni feat was calced

      The Kikosho was from SF4 Aftermath, dont think its anime, Ryu dodging them was from an anime, if that goes away, then its gonna be a slight downgrade

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    • Depends on which anime it is, some are supplementary material and some are non canon.

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    • Anttron224
      Anttron224 removed this reply because:
      05:11, March 7, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • Antvasima wrote:
      Has somebody created non-canon profiles for Oni and Evil Ryu yet?

      Also, is somebody willing to find scans for the feats that need to be calculated and then ask the calc group for help?

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Evil_Ryu#Classic

      Here you go

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    • Kage could have used a better render then just his back being seen honestly

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    • @Anttron224

      Thank you for helping out.

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    • BlackDarkness679 wrote:
      Kage could have used a better render then just his back being seen honestly

      Kage doesn't really have any good renders,  his only fullbody one is of the same pose; and I honestly don't like him enough to make a new one.

      Antvasima wrote:
      Thank you for helping out.

      No problem.

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    • Could have asked for a render to someone on the wiki then

      I have anyway a render that shows his face, gonna change the existing one on the profile with that

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    • Okay.

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    • I know this is probably (obviously a outlier)

      But in Alpha 3,when you are defeated by Bison (Spammy asshole) he captures Dan and uses his body to power up a buddha statue and blow up a town, not sure if thats a thing in all loss endings but thought it was interesting.

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    • Bison does this with every character if you lose all rounds, thats a game over scene

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    • That sucks then

      I still think that Dan Hibiki should still scale (somewhat) if his fight scene against Chun Li is considered Canon (Where the latter confronts him about being on Shadaloo and whatnot and he fights and then run away)

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    • What do we need to do here?

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    • Dan doesnt scale to anyone, he is a fodder in the SF world

      @Ant

      Nothing really changed, the same things which we told you from last time

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    • Antvasima wrote: We might need that somebody starts a new continuation thread for this, with an easy to understand summary of the discussion so far in the beginning. After that they can ask all of the staff and experienced members who took part in this discussion to respond to the new one as well.

      It seems like this was the best idea I could come up with in order to get something done here.

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    • The justification for 7-B's Ryu rating no make sense. Psycho Drive contained not only Ryu's power but also Psycho Power's. And if SF characters can destroy cities, why would M. Bison need the power of Ryu + Psycho Drive instead of doing it on his own?

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    • Why waste his own energy when he can use Ryu's ki like a battery?

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    • Anttron224 wrote:
      Why waste his own energy when he can use Ryu's ki like a battery?

      Because he wouldn't need... Unless Ryu's ki was just one element to grant that destructive ability. We don't know how the machine works. Bison could have put himself in it. "But he would die." So Ryu too, as he is weaker than Bison and does not master the Psycho Power contained in Psycho Drive. And if he dies, it can't be a battery. Or do you think Bison would have all that work to capture Ryu to use his power to just destroy a city when he could have done it himself?

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    • Because characters have personalities and character traits that allow them to make decisions within their own disposition. Most characters (and people too) don't act on what most would consider the ideal or best choices, characters have preferences. Maybe Bison would rather use a giant buddha statue powered by Ryu.

      Also M. Bison can charge it himself, look at his page.

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    • Is somebody experienced/who knows what they are doing willing to follow my earlier suggestions?

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    • Anttron224 wrote:
      Because characters have personalities and character traits that allow them to make decisions within their own disposition. Most characters (and people too) don't act on what most would consider the ideal or best choices, characters have preferences. Maybe Bison would rather use a giant buddha statue powered by Ryu.

      Also M. Bison can charge it himself, look at his page.

      And following that logic, you can justify the power of any character according to what you want. Let's put Ryu in 1-A, maybe he hasn't demonstrated this power simply because his personality doesn't allow it. We're also going to put Batman in 1-A for hurting Specter, maybe he just hasn't shown that level before because of his personality.
      It is an extreme example, but it serves to show that the characters have their personalities but that does not make them and the authors mindless stupid. Ignoring the variables I quoted and you ignored (such as how Psycho Drive works and Ryu's utility) is lazy.
      I repeat: if M. Bison only wanted Ryu to destroy a city, why didn't he do it on his own? How to ask someone in another room of your home to get control of the television that is on your side. And that is important to you.
      If your answer is that Bison and the Street Fighter writers are dumb as a rock or prefer to have more work than necessary, that's fine.

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    • That logic is demonstrably false. The psycho drive harnessed their power and was capable of destroying a city, so they scale. We aren't picking a random statistic and saying they haven't shown it because of their personality. I made the personality argument to justify why he would use the psycho drive instead of himself, not to justify his attack potency.

      I ignored what you brought up about the psycho drive because it isn't worth addressing. We very clearly know how the psycho drive works, you give it a power source and it produces an attack from the energy provided. We don't need to see the gears and circuitry to know it's basic function.

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    • Why would Bison waste his own energy to blow the city when he can use someone else for that which has the power for it

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    • Bison wants to be more powerful, wasting his energy on a city isnt something he would do especially when he has alternatives for that

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    • Antvasima wrote: Is somebody experienced/who knows what they are doing willing to follow my earlier suggestions?

      Anyone? We need more staff input here, and with this long thread we are not going to get it.

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    • A near necro bump. But seems that the Oni and Fang calcs have been done and Gill's calc was disregarded. Guess it seems that we just need to know who scales to who now, especially Ryu and Akuma.

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    • Akuma scales above Ryu, Ryu has his own feat also

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    • Nah, I meant that who are the characters who scale to those said two. On a side note, what is Gill's justification for 7-A? Apart from being above Akuma who's 7-B?

      Also, assuming Cody scales to Ryu due to Hugo, then shouldn't Guy and Haggar get the same treatment?

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    • To Akuma those that scale to him are Oro, Gill, Gouken, Kage, Bison with black moon and Oni vastly above him

      To Ryu i know Ken sure does, Cody i wouldnt honestly scale him to Ryu neither the rest mentioned

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    • Yeah, but I'm pretty sure that Gill should just be 7-B since that's Akuma's tier.

      Also, iirc Hugo tanked Ryu's Shin Shoryu in SF3, which should be enough to scale him to Ryu, and by extension, the other FF characters.

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    • Dont know why Gill has 7-A there, probably a mistake 

      Still skeptical and it could be an outlier

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    • Come to think of it, Gill dosn't even really have feats that put him above characters on Ryu's level. He lost to Alex canonically in SFIII and was one shot by Akuma. Gill just kinda seems overhyped, TBH.

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    • The Smashor wrote:
      Come to think of it, Gill dosn't even really have feats that put him above characters on Ryu's level. He lost to Alex canonically in SFIII and was one shot by Akuma. Gill just kinda seems overhyped, TBH.

      Gill is overhyped storywise because he IS powerful in game mechanics as a boss character.

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    • His loss to Alex is more or less plot, for Akuma, he caught him off guard with the raging demon

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    • So what should we do here?

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    • @Black

      There's nothing to suggest he's above Bison, not to mention Akuma aside from being a stronger boss in-game. The burden of proof is on you. 

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    • Says you? Bison has nothing to prove he is stronger either and compared to Gill, he needs amps for him to be around those leagues

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    • You can't just say "There's no proof Bison is stronger than Gill" to prove that Gill is stronger than Bison.

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    • Says who? You?

      He beat Urien which scales from Nash, Nash is comparable to Bison, Gill is far above Urien

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    • Nash is comparable to a weakened Bison in SFV and a Ryu level Bison in Alpha. While Gill definitely above Urien, I wouldn't consider him overwhelmingly so, espesially since in the one fight between them that Gill won, Gill credited a prophecy as opposed to his own power. Not to mention, he still canonically lost to Alex

      As well, he lost to Bison in an ending in Capcom Fighting Evolution. While the game is a non-canon crossover, an official Capcom game having Bison beat Gill in a cutscene, despite Gill having absolutely nothing to do with CFE, should at least say something about how Capcom themselves see Bison and Gill.

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    • His loss to Alex is plot, not to mention Gill doesnt take fights seriously stated in his profile too

      Yeah no, Capcom also made Chun li pretty much beat Morrigan in the comics or made Rugal and Ogre be compared to Akuma in power in crossovers and if you wanna use non canon stuff to support your wrong argument let me grab the moments Gill was owning Evil Ryu and Oni at the same time and reverted them to their normal forms

      And he is vastly above Urien, even in SF5 we see he did it casually on him, they are noth in the same league

      Bison is above him only with black moon

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    • This simply an assumption we make. "Stated in his profile" dosn't seem to be reliable for this character, if you are reffering to our profile. If you want to use our profile, said profile says that Gill could have very much been killed by Alex.

      I'm not using CFE as solid proof. I'm saying that an officially released Capcom game had Bison defeat Gill completely unprompted. Gill does not appear in this game aside from Bison's ending. This seems very blatantly trying to tell us something.

      "Vastly" seems a bit high. He is definately a step above Urien, but it's entirely possible this could be skill, not power.

      Not necessarily. And Gill absolutely dosn't scale to Akuma.

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    • The Smashor wrote:
      Nash is comparable to a weakened Bison in SFV and a Ryu level Bison in Alpha. While Gill definitely above Urien, I wouldn't consider him overwhelmingly so, espesially since in the one fight between them that Gill won, Gill credited a prophecy as opposed to his own power. Not to mention, he still canonically lost to Alex

      As well, he lost to Bison in an ending in Capcom Fighting Evolution. While the game is a non-canon crossover, an official Capcom game having Bison beat Gill in a cutscene, despite Gill having absolutely nothing to do with CFE, should at least say something about how Capcom themselves see Bison and Gill.

      A victory being prophesied doesn't invalidate the victory, if anything it further cements their difference in power.

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    • So you just ignore what i said and still use the CFE to support your head canon, there us no proof of Bison being above Gill at all and canon scaling proves that Gill>Bison

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    • I'm not saying that. What I am saying, is that Gill is not compareable to Akuma, as our profile says.

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    • You are saying that basically dont try to twist it


      Also Gill has quotes to Oro which pretty much indicate Gill is powerful, Oro also has too, where he says this : "You might be what I've been looking for... Let me look at you some more... Hmmm..."

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    • He is comparable to Akuma, stop with the lame lowball

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    • Do you understand how much the scaling is messed up if we use win quotes and things of that nature? Chun Li has several rival quotes against Bison despite being two tiers below him, and also a rival quote against Urien. If we use win quotes, Chun Li has fought against Akuma. And that's just the inconsistancies with one character.

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    • We dont take all quotes as legit and you should comprehend in your mind how we deal with these sort of things, same as the endings of the characters



      You got no proof besides denial buddy which shows up, Gill also says in SF3 to Urien how there is a difference between them in power too if i remember, supporting even more Gill is way above Urien and further proving Gill>Bison which you tried to claim by a non canon source it means something, especially in a crossover game

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    • If there's no evidence for Gill = Akuma other than one single quote, then I think we shouldn't consider that quote. Gill was one shot by the Raging Demon. That dosn't seem like something that makes two people equal. There's one thing that says Akuma > Gill, and there's one thing from an unreliable source that says their equal.

      I'll give you that. Gill > Bison most likely.

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    • Yeah catching Gill off guard what great proof lol, also a FANG uses a quote too thats in his profile, its not unreliable

      Also there is proof from both Gill and Oro to support beimg comparable to Akuma and for your info, comparable doesnt automatically mean =, as a character in fiction can still be stronger then another but they compare in stats, even to keep up in speed and blows for example

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    • The raging demon isn't exactly a "Catch you off guard" sort of move. Gill was ready to fight, and his durability wouldn't be any lower than normal.

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