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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    18:53, December 23, 2019

    The Angels should have Type 5 Immortality from the manga

    https://www.viz.com/shonenjump/dragon-ball-super-chapter-55/chapter/19651

    I know it's from the manga, but we have used the manga slightly for the Angels since we don't know much about them. And the angels have showcased all the abilities from the anime in the manga, so there's no reason we can't use the manga for the anime in this case

    Goku said that he thought Angels were immortal, and Whis said the only way to kill them is to erase them from existence, as that is the nature of their life form. This was also hinted at in the anime. The manga just confirms it. 

    Also,t I made a thread for it before but it died a while back. The Grand Priest should have "Possibly Existence Erasure." In the anime, it was implied by Whis that Zeno and GP can erase from existence. This manga chapter also implies that GP can do so, because Whis said Meerus should be lucky that he doesn't have to appear in front of him, the same time they talked about the immortality stuff.

    Proposal:

    All Angels- Immortality (Type 5)

    Grand Priest- Possible Existence Erasure (Albiet, it is likely not as potent as Zen'o)

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    • Disagreed on Immortality because the manga is a different continuity and shouldn't be used for the anime. And Grand Priest stuff seems extremely vague, so disagreed on that too.

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    • I don't want to get into an argument on what is canon and what is not. But, we have used the manga for the angels before because we don't know much about them, and such a vast difference being present makes literally no sense, when it is a case of their literal reason for existing, as well as their "nature" 

      The Grand Priest would have a possibly. I don't what is "vague" about whis implying Zeno and GP could erase, with the manga backing that up by saying GP will be the one dealing with Meerus, with no mention of Zen'o

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    • I personaly agree, we used the manga for the angels before and this whole immortality thing was already hinted at in the anime anyway, the manga is just giving us a confirmation and more details.

      I though all angels already had a existence erasure through hakai since they are the ones teaching it to the GoDs ? wouldn't it be redundant for GP to have existence erasure then ?

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    • It is more likely for Grand Priest, as the only evidence we have towards all angels having EE is Vados saying she trained Toppo to be a G.O.D. 

      TLDR;

      GP has more evidence 

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    • When have we used the manga for the Angels? No info from it should be on the canon profiles.

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    • As I said,

      Such a fundamental aspect of the Angels characteristics being seperate by manga and anime makes no logical sense, especially when all abilities showcased in the anime has been showcased in the manga in way or another. Simplying arguing "It isn't canon to it so it doesn't scale" only works in a big difference. In the case of their immortality, it is an aspect of the angels, as stated by Whis their "nature"

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    • Speaking of Immortality, shouldn't the Angels get Type 1? We know they've been alive since the first Destroyer (or at least was never replaced) so they've been here since the beginning and seemingly never ages (We know they had a "Childhood" but for them that could literally be trillions or billions of years; he ain't mortal). 

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:

      Such a fundamental aspect of the Angels characteristics being seperate by manga and anime makes no logical sense, especially when all abilities showcased in the anime has been showcased in the manga in way or another. Simplying arguing "It isn't canon to it so it doesn't scale" only works in a big difference. In the case of their immortality, it is an aspect of the angels, as stated by Whis their "nature"

      Going by the whole "are similar" I can argue canon Goku has hakai now, because he shows it in the manga. And when have Type 5 Immo been stated to be part of Angel nature in canon?

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Zenkaibattery1 wrote:

      Such a fundamental aspect of the Angels characteristics being seperate by manga and anime makes no logical sense, especially when all abilities showcased in the anime has been showcased in the manga in way or another. Simplying arguing "It isn't canon to it so it doesn't scale" only works in a big difference. In the case of their immortality, it is an aspect of the angels, as stated by Whis their "nature"

      Going by the whole "are similar" I can argue canon Goku has hakai now, because he shows it in the manga. And when have Type 5 Immo been stated to be part of Angel nature in canon?

      But that's not Zenkaibattery's argument? With Hakai it's a specific technique so it's a drastic difference. 

      In the Angel's case, both the Anime and Manga has Immortality but the anime only being implied while the Manga is upfront about it. 

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    • Again, show me the anime implying it.

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    • The hakai is a complete different argument altogether

      Whether or not it was in the anime is kinda irrelevant altogether. Lon, you have yet to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this wouldn't scale to the angels in the anime.

      My primary argument is that this is intregal to the characterisitcs of the angel, as it is their entire being. It is, as Whis said, part of their nature. You're essentially saying they can be killed in the anime but not the manga, which if you think about it, makes no logical sense.

      Again, this is a statement important for the angels as characters in the show

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    • Zenkaibattery1 wrote:

      Lon, you have yet to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that this wouldn't scale to the angels in the anime.

      1) Never call me "Lon"!

      2) I have provided one: it's not canon. We can't have non-canon info on canon profiles.

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    • i dont think anime will change this information later. especially manga is now upfront anime,not vice versa. and this is toriyama's story. so whis should be upgraded. Great Priest probably the one who erase the angel.

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    • Vegitotssj3 wrote: i dont think anime will change this information later. especially manga is now upfront anime,not vice versa. and this is toriyama's story. so whis should be upgraded.

      I don't get what any of this means or how it is relevant to the discussion.

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    • If Toriyama was against it, he would have vetoed it just like he vetoed Belmod and Margarita being a couple / close because 'Angels don't get that close to their GoD', if Toriyama vetoed that, i doubt he'd allow Toyotaro to just completly change the nature of the angels, that's pretty obvious.

      So either it was part of Toriyama's outline or Toyotaro convinced him.

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    • Unfortunatelly the current profiles only cover the anime Angels, so unless the manga profiles are created, we can't apply this.

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    • I fully agree with Antoniofer.

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    • It's pretty clear that this is Toriyama's canon, considering he has contradicted Toyotaro on matters pertaining to Angels in the past.

      There is no news regarding a new anime adaptation and the last we ever heard of an anime, it was supposedly a new movie in the works. I understand that anime/manga has been segregated for Super, but there is quite literally no canon differenation when the anime doesn't even exist anymore.

      As far as we know, the manga is the only continuation after the Tournament of Power. Toriyama oversees the manga. He quality controls and checks Toyotaro regarding the plot and facts of the fiction and it has primary basis in the canon beyond the Tournament of Power.

      The only reason the anime and manga have ever been segregated is due to:

      • The Toei anime has very different rules, feats and scaling to the manga (DB, Z and GT)
      • The Toei anime (DBS) predates the manga and follows a completely different plot structure and writing style to the manga

      Neither of these reasonings are even remotely relevant to the current setting, in which the manga is the sole canon presented currently in Dragon Ball Super.

      If the DBS anime returns and it contradicts the manga then a return to form makes sense but, right now? Treating the DBS Manga (beyond the ToP arc) as its own canon makes little sense to me. Nothing contradicts it as canon to the anime, there is nothing for it to even contradict in the first place.

      The only issue with treating Post-ToP Manga as the canon continuation for ToP Anime and ToP Manga would be a scene where we see Goku and Vegeta fighting SS Broly, but the DBS Broly film is already considered anime and manga canon, so that panel hardly counts as contradicting the manga continuing the anime and manga alike.

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    • I want to add that technicaly, as Goku say he first unlocked UI by having his life threatened, Toyotaro is basicaly using the anime canon during Goku's training with Merus (in the Manga TOP, Goku doesn't unlock UI by being in danger, he unlock it by remembering what his past teachers told him)

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    • Guys, if you really wish this to go through, just make a profile for Merus first, then we could debate whether this is Type 1 or 5 or not.

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    • Yeah a merus profile as he is manga only

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote:

      THIS.

      Not only this, but the anime changing a plot line intregal to the characteristics of the angel makes no logical sense. 

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    • @DMB

      It is type 5. The issue is whether or not we can scale it to the anime

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    • Although technically true that the manag is the only canon media remaining, is still different from the anime. Personally I consider the Angels to be no different in both media (isn't like they have much to deal with anyway), but by rules we can't apply the that immortality yet.

      So better go for creating Merus profile as people suggest.

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    • Going to be honest, I consider the manga sencondary canon that can be used if not contradicted, but this isn't the stance of the site, so unless you change this stance and have anime and manga be considered equally canon (and on which case, manga profiles would be deleted), we can't use non-canon info on canon profiles.

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    • Both are equaly canon as Toriyama has indirect influence over both media, however since the anime is no more, the only canon media remaining is the manga. Why would considering mamga canon lead to the erasure of the profiles?

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    • If the new movie is related to the manga but is treated as a continuation to the Broly film, I think that would be sufficient evidence to claim the manga should just be treated as the official continuation to the ToP for both the anime and manga canons.

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    • Antoniofer wrote: Both are equaly canon as Toriyama has indirect influence over both media, however since the anime is no more, the only canon media remaining is the manga. Why would considering mamga canon lead to the erasure of the profiles?

      Because the profiles would have to merge the info from both?

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    • The Broly movie is canon both to the anime and to the manga, and the Moro arc takes place after it. Goku even mentions having recently met "anoither Saiyan", clearly referring to Broly.

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    • Ah, is that.

      @DMB, don't think someone suggested that the Broly movie didn't happened in the manga, there was a panel and a mini-special that commented about it.

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    • This makes no sense to me.

      Type 5 makes no sense unless all Angels have resistance to EE.

      Hax > AP

      GoD can just EE an Angel. Unless, Angels have resistant to it. Whis is Beerus teacher so he should know what Beerus knows which includes EE and Void Manipulation.

      Likely Existance Erasure, Void Manipulation and Non-Physical Interaction (Angels taught their canditates to be a GoD)

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    • Type 8 makes sense to me since they only way to removed them is by GP conceptually removing them.

      DBS CH 55, Page 42-43.

      Whis: It is the only means by which an angel can be removed from existance. There is no way around this truth--such is the nature of the angel life-form.

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    • "Type 5 makes no sense unless all Angels have resistance to EE. "

      The only way to kill a Type 5 is through Existence Erasure.

      "Type 8 makes sense to me since they only way to removed them is by GP conceptually removing them"

      Type 8 is where a character is dependent on another object or concept for its existence (It staying alive). There's nowhere in this that suggests it - All it seems to suggest is that either Grand Priest or Zeno will erase them from existence if they break the rule. (Also a possibility that they just... end if they do it, but this seems way less likely.)

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    • I agree with OP. Although a separate profile for manga version of the Angels need to be made

      Giygas3 wrote: Type 8 is where a character is dependent on another object or concept for its existence (It staying alive). There's nowhere in this that suggests it - All it seems to suggest is that either Grand Priest or Zeno will erase them from existence if they break the rule. (Also a possibility that they just... end if they do it, but this seems way less likely.)

      In that case Law-Manipulation for GP?

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    • Deathless Immortality: Characters who exist unbound by conventional life or death, or do not exist at all, and thus cannot be traditionally killed. Typically, abilities such as Existence Erasure are needed to destroy them.

      I don’t see this in the OP, besides we don’t even know the context behind it. Why do they need to be erased? maybe they just go to the angel world if they die as opposed to erased which is prob why they need to be erased.

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    • "I don’t see this in the OP, "

      Pretty clear that it's describing Type 5.

      " besides we don’t even know the context behind it. Why do they need to be erased?"

      Because that's the only way they can die, that's the clear context of Whis response to Goku.

      "maybe they just go to the angel world if they die as opposed to erased "

      That doesn't make any sense with what Whis says.

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    • You need proof they exist unbound from life and death, I can’t think of a single character who’s gotten type 5 because they need to be erased.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote:
      You need proof they exist unbound from life and death, I can’t think of a single character who’s gotten type 5 because they need to be erased.

      Goku litteraly say 'i though Angels couldn't die' and Whis answer that existence erasure is the only way to kill an angels, as it is their nature, that's pretty clear.

      Also Angels being unbound from life and death is pretty obvious when they can just walk in and out of the afterlife and resurrect people by pointing at them.

      Can't die at all without EE = type 5, simple.

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    • No, I only need to show that they're unbound from conventional death.

      If the only way to kill the angels is through erasure, and there's no other way for them to die, then they're clearly unbound from conventional death. That's in clear context of what Whis says, in response to Goku's comment of them not being able to die.

      It's clear this is Type 5 Immortality.

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    • I agree that we cannot scale the anime continuity from the manga. Sorry.

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    • AwkguyDB
      AwkguyDB removed this reply because:
      irrelavent
      17:35, December 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • AwkguyDB
      AwkguyDB removed this reply because:
      irrelevant
      17:34, December 23, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • AwkguyDB wrote:
      Goku as a SSJ is casually moving around with 4000s tons worth of weight if we incorporate the Gravity on that planet which should render Vegeta's showing as an outlier or PIS.

      Wrong thread.

      You meant to post it to Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 84

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    • XD ooops I was wondering where this went

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    • So is there anything left to do here?

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    • No, given we won't cross-scale between different continuities.

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    • Okay. I will close this then.

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