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  • I took a look back at this thread here and saw that Joker's wincon had flaws. His wincon was with fear manipulation (Evil Smile) and then Ghastly Whail which kills anyone with fear. However Bowser resists fear manipulation as it's literally one of the aliments in Mario RPG.  And that was the main reason for his win. Thus a rematch is needed.

    Same rules as before.

    Bowser has his Grand Stars and equipment.

    Joker is in his end game key.

    Speed is equalized.

    Bowser:

    Joker:

    Inconclusive:

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    • What's the scale of Bowser's resistance to Fear? Joker's fearhax is pretty potent.

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    • Not sure, he's just immune to it in-game which can affect all of his the other members. However I don't think the amount of people he affects will bypass his resistance.

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    • Is there any kind of fearhax in the game that comes close to Universal+? If not, then even in-game immunity (which translates to resistance in this case) is NLF unless it's proven that he's actually immune.

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    • Not exactly, however the ap to this is irrelevant because we don't usually say a character isn't resistant to a hax because a character of a certain tier didn't use them.

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    • It's not a matter of AP. If there aren't feats of resisting mindhax of that scale, then they don't resist. All of Joker's hax are universal+ because of the way his powers work, so this just ends up the same as the last thread.

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    • What do you mean by on that scale? His hax being universal+ doesn't negate Bowser's resistance, hax often bypasses someone's tier. Not to mention if Joker uses this ability even once, Bowser ressurects and removes Joker's ability to use fear manipulation.

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    • It doesn't bypass Bowser's resistance. It plows right through it because of the sheer difference in scale. According to you, Bowser has no feats that has him resist mindhax on the level that Joker can use on him. His resistance is worth jack squat.

      Actually, this reminds me. Bowser only resists because of the Safety Ring, but if that resistance is negligible compared to Joker's hax potency, then he can just as easily plow through Bowser's resistance to Death Manip since said resistance comes from there too. He doesn't need Ghastly Wail or fearhax. He just spams death AOEs everywhere.

      Even if Bowser resurrects, Joker can just hax him into incapacitation with despair or sleep.

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    • Different scale in terms of what? Again, Joker's hax being able to work on characters who are universal+ does not stop his resistances. This isn't exactly how we say if something plows through someones resistance.

      Same reason as what I said above.

      What stops Bowser from slowing down time, removing Joker's abilities, and sealing? Bowser can easily just passively resurrect himself, slow down time, remove Joker's Persona abilities, and seal him.

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    • Joker's hax is universal+ via being directly powered by the same power that gave Big Baddie the ability to mindhax everything in the physical and cognitive universes, and works on characters that can resist that same level of mindhax. Bowser's resistance is incomparable because he has no resistance feats on that level. Thus, they get plowed through.

      Joker's deathhax is one of his go-to spells, since the Curse element is his signature. The same applies to his debilitating ailments. Joker also resists power nullification since that's one of the ailments in P5 that are backed up by the power noted above. Resurrection just forces him to incap.

      Time slow barely matters since it's resisted and most of Joker's stuff is AOE, all of his magic is thought-based, and he doesn't have to worry about hitting himself when spamming death spells all over the place. If Bowser gets close, he gets nailed by omnidirectional AOE around Joker. If Bowser stays still, he gets nailed by the spells manifesting at his location. Even moving around doesn't guarantee he doesn't get grazed, and that's all Joker needs for most of his hax to work.

      Even if Bowser somehow dodges all of that, if he so much as touches Joker, he gets inflicted with Fear via Evil Touch. If he so much as looks at Joker, he gets inflicted with Fear via Evil Smile. Once he's afraid, he'll die to Ghastly Wail as long as he hears it.

      Once Bowser resurrects and Joker figures he can't be killed normally, he'll resort to ailments.

      - Dazzler will screw up his movements by making him severely dizzy, making it even harder to dodge everything and it only needs to be seen to work.

      - Lullaby puts Bowser to sleep simply by being heard.

      - Makajamaon makes Bowser forget how to fight.

      - Joker speaks Ominous Words and Bowser suddenly wants to kill himself.

      All of Joker's spells are thought-based activation and he can at least double his thought speed via Third Eye. Most of his go-to hax are either AOE or travel through sight or sound. How does Bowser make it through all of that?

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    • For some reason I thought this was a rematch with Mario

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    • Doesn’t Bowsers resurrection come from Retry clocks/Earlier Times? Or is it something else?

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    • How the heck did you get to that conclusion?

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    • I misread the title and I just came here from that match

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    • Oh, ok.

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    • Solacis:

      No, we are not scaling Joker's abilites to Yaldy's hax/range. His "power source" does not allow us the scale their abilites at all. Everyone's resistance is also getting removed as well. You don't need feats of resisting an ability that worked on a universal+ character because hax is to supposed to bypass your tier. We don't scale it this way.

      Same reasons as above + Bowser simply removes his ability to use death manipulation. Joker does not resist power nullification, not on his profile and even if it was, it's likely only due to the forget aliment which would only work as memory manipulation. One of his ways to resurrect is via time manipulation so there goes another chance even if incapped.

      Joker only resists time stop, not time manipulation. This does matter because Bowser's sealing is going to be something very difficult for Joker to dodge. Bowser can also just completely bypass any of Joker's move via Slim as it works extremely similar to Mario's flip which flips you to another dimension, not allowing characters from other dimensions to interact with them. Bowser can also freely move while using this and still be able to use his hax. It's going to be very difficult for Joker to hurt Bowser.

      Piccolo can restore anyone dizzy and asleep so that can be taken care of. Barry can also reflect projectiles. The forget aliment only stops people from being able to use Persona skills, so Bowser should still be able to use equipment.

      Persona attacks aren't thought-based, he first summons then uses the move.

      Bowser can easily just use slim to bypass any of his moves, slow down time, use a catch card to seal Joker, or transmute, remove his special moves, clone himself to keep Joker distraced/make all of the clones use the same move at the same time, transmute Joker into music notes by dancing (not something he can dodge), or use other equipment.

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    • Catch Cards Are Soul Manipulation, not Sealing (Yes, I know they function exactly like Sealing) So I’m assuming his resurrection is through His time reversing items?

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    • Catch Cards are both soul manipulation and sealing, it captures both your physical body and soul into the card. That's two of his ways to ressurect, retry clocks and earlier times restart the battle. Life Shroom will just continue the battle where he left off.

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    • So if he revives with a retry clock then Ren won’t even know that he killed Bowser in the first place, but Bowser will

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    • Yep. Which is why it gives Bowser an advantage.

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    • Resisting time stop lets you resist time slow by default, since time stop's just a very potent time slow.

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    • Bump, Bowser still has wincons and can basically just bypass Joker's moves with Slim.

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    • How potent is Bowser's fearhax resistance?

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    • How do you quantify Fear-Hax’s Potency?

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    • How many people it can affect.

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    • I thought that was only for Mind and Soul Hax though? Is it not?

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    • Is fear not part of the mind?

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    • It can be, but not always

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    • I don't see why not.

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    • Three if I'm correct, but Joker has only shown to affect one enemy. While yes, it is possible to affect all enemies with certain skills, the way Joker does it is by blasting several projectiles towards each enemy. Therfore it only works with one, but Joker affects several people by shooting a projectile to each enemy separately.

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    • Joker's mindhax extends to far more than just one.

      I mean... don't we scale P5's mindhax and soulhax to cognition? And Yaldy mindhaxed nearly everyone in the universe. Ren and the PTs should be comparable via their own cognitions empowering their mindhax. That's well over 6 billion people. 6 billion people with at least a modicum of resistance due to being midhaxed via their Shadows?
      ~ Solacis
      Back to mindhax... The PTs' suits are products of their Willpower (Cognition), which specifically protects them from the effects of Cognition due to their personal wills of rebellion. All of Yaldy's hax is a product of Cognition. Yes, all of them, even the ones he didn't mindhax humanity into believing, as we later  learn this is more than possible thanks to a certain someone's own cognition powers that he specifically inherited from Yaldy.

      The PTs eventually strengthen their willpower enough to shrug off Yaldy's cognitions, so that would thus mean that they could shrug off his mindhax too. Which is just added resistance, since they could already do it before.

      In P5R, they should be able to affect each other even with their level of resistance, so naturally, theirs would scale above Yaldy.

      ~ Solacis
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    • DatOneWeeb wrote:
      Three if I'm correct, but Joker has only shown to affect one enemy. While yes, it is possible to affect all enemies with certain skills, the way Joker does it is by blasting several projectiles towards each enemy. Therfore it only works with one, but Joker affects several people by shooting a projectile to each enemy separately.

      I don't think status ailments can affect all three members of your party at once in RPG (Only 2), but that might just be game mechanics (Having all three of your party members turned into mushrooms in one attack would be pretty unfair after all)

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    • Just the attack animation, which is changed often in Persona games.

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    • ?

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    • I'm talking about what Weeb said.

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    • Yeah, no. What Solaceo said is complete headcanon. Just because they have powers from the Metaverse does not mean they scale to the source at all. Power bestowal doesn't always mean you have the same powers from the source, and this is the case here. Nothing implies they have the exact same power at all. Hell, when has their suits ever been stated this? A lot of this just seems to be completely made up. Their clothing has never been stated nor implied to be the source of their resistances. Unless you have certain equipment, but we aren't reffering to those. The PT have not shown range similar to Yaldabaoth, nor the same abilites. I'd also say they do not resist his abilities. All of his empathic/mind manipulation related abilites always affect the PT. So overall, these arguments are pure headcanon.

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    • 1. One, Morgana states that their suits and awakening are a source of rebellion against the Palace's cognition. That's why literally every awakening takes place in a Palace, because they're rejecting that reality.

      2. Not clothing, you're missing the point, it's the Cognition. Their clothing is just a physical manifestation of their rebellion.

      3. The rest as he said are self explanatory, it is head canon.

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    • Voting Joker for my reasons.

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    • Bowser resists his mind manipulation, I've already explained why shooting more than one projectile at your opponent =/= the range of affecting several people. The other argument was pure headcanon.

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    • I argued your claim, and as long as the projectiles come from one spell then it counts as more, as listed in the mind manip power.

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    • Er, no, not at all. You're trying to say Joker can simply stack his mind manipulation by firing the same spell more than once despite the fact that you can't stak mind manipulation in Persona 5.

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    • I’m fine with the mental stuff bypassing, but everything else is a big no.

      That said, didn’t Joker win last time? Bowser is both, more mobile, and a better fighter, but Joker’s hax outweighs his own.

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    • Joker's argument for winning was with fear manipulation. Bowser resists this. Are we going to ignore how Bowser can just use things like Slim to just completely bypass any move he uses, literally suck away Joker's move which will nullify it, seal with a catch card, ressurect himself three times, etc.

      The issues with Joker winning is that Bowser has his own ways to just bypass his moves and if ends up dying then a Retry Clock will start the battle over, giving Bowser more than one attempt + a bit of prior knowledge.

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    • I think Bowser’s best bet is a war of attrition. Create infinite space between the two and launch attacks, wearing down Joker.

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    • Bowser resists: Fear, sleep, mind, death, empathic, and dizzy.

      This means Joker at this point can only use the forget aliment. But that only makes Bowser forget how to use special moves, so items are still a thing. Even if Joker kills Bowser while in that state, he comes back, succs, no more forget aliment. 



      Meanwhile Bowser still has other options for harming Joker.

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    • I think I might just vote for Bowser. I feel like the justification behind Joker's had potency is a bit flimsy because there just doesn't seem to be anything that logically backs up the idea that cognition gives the same amount of hax potency to everyone.

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    • No, I'm saying Joker's mind manip alone surpasses his resistance via him shrugging off Yaldy's mindhax that got the entire planet. The very fact that their cognitions rebelled against his is why they weren't mindhaxed so easily?

      Joker's attacks are thought-based, so he's not getting his attacks off first. Even if fearhax didn't work, Joker's attacks still hit the mind and soul. He could use Mudo/Hama and be done with it. Megidolaon would bypass all of his resistances.

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    • That only applies to resistance, not their own power. Shrugging off his mind hax doesn't mean Joker himself has the exact same power. Especially since Yaldabaoth and Joker both mind hax differently.

      Really? The entire "thought based" attack argument again? He can send out his attacks without saying it, but saying his attacks come out as fast as him thinking it is pretty doubtful as we never see that. Joker's attacks don't directly attack the soul, it's just that shadows are linked to their mind which Joker fights. Bowser resists death, so mudo/hama won't work. Megidoloan is just a standard almighty attack and doesn't bypass durability.

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    • It's still classified under mindhax regardless, something they shrugged off. And again, considering Joker can hit the mind and soul it's no different.

      Yes, because he does attack thought-based. And yes, we do see multiple times that Persona users can use their abilities without saying it, so the only thing left is thought. Everyone in Persona can attack the soul, as Shadows also come from the Sea of Souls, as stated when you talk to them in P5. Mudo might not, but Hama (a holy light) can. I never said Megidolan bypasses durabilty.

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    • Pretty sure a grand total of zero attacking mind/soul examples regardless of fictions are treated as oneshots.

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    • Can you please show me where I said it's a oneshot?

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    • I’m sure that’s what you’re implying, right? That it plowing through mind/soul resistances means it insta-destroys them?

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    • No... I said Mudo/Hama can oneshot. I never said it plows through resistances, I just said Persona users can hit both.

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    • And that's still only a resistance, not something Joker himself can do. Joker's attacks do not directly attack the soul. Just because the enemies he fights are non-corporal does not mean he can attack the soul. I might as well say all of Bowser's attacks can also harm the soul because he has harmed ghosts.

      And yet we have never seen Persona users attack thought based at all. Hama is still considered as death manipulation because while the attack looks different, it overall has the same results. 

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    • Like I said, as stated by Morgana Shadows have thoughts, minds, and feelings. That's all they are. Shadows also come from the Sea of Souls, like I've already said. So that's mind, and soul completely.

      We have seen it before, Junpei did it, Yukari did it, and Makoto did it. Hama is still holy light, which he doesn't resist.

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    • Yeah, that doesn't change what I said at all. Joker using his abilities against a non-corpeal only gives him non-physical interaction, it doesn't mean when Joker uses his attacks they directly go for the soul.

      Holy light which gives him death manipulation. Again, it still does that same thing to the Curse equivalent. Just different elements.

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    • DatOneWeeb is right, hitting an exposed soul/mind is very different from being able to attack on a mental/spiritual level.

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    • Uhh, what exactly is being argued here?

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    • In short, Bowser resists a large majority of Joker's durability neagting hax and that Joker does not attack the soul specifically.

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    • Does he resist Joker's ability to mitigate his hax resistance?

      Also Joker can directly attack the soul of something with his Almighty drains. Wouldn't work for other stuff though. He can attack the mind directly though.

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    • Joker doesn't have resistance negation for his mind manipulation so he has no way to bypass Bowser's resistances.

      Life Drain doesn't directly attack the soul, my reasons for this is for what I said above. Life Drain only takes away some HP which Bowser can just restore so it isn't good wincon. He can only attack the mind directly if he uses mind manipulation, or if he's fighting a cognitive shadow of someone which isn't the case here because this is the real Bowser.

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    • Yes he does. Foul Breath/stagnant air mitigate the resistances on an opponent for all ailments, which includes physiological and mental attacks.

      Spirit drain does directly attack the soul, and a case could be made for life drain as well.

      Cognitive shadows are their own entities, I'm not sure why you are treating them as some weird off shoot in terms of mechanics.

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    • Foul Breath does not negate your resistances, it only gives you a better chance to get affected by the aliment. This is because in the game, depending what move you're using, it has a higher or lower chance of that aliment actually working. Certain Persona's are resistant to certain aliments, Foul Breath does not break that resistance.

      Spirit Drain only removes SP,  you know, something that won't kill you if you run out. Life Drain only removes HP, it's a basic move in an RPG that removes someones HP and uses it themself.

      Because Palace Owners/Shadows of people are linked to their minds. If their shadow is killed, they get a mental shutdown which won't happen here because this isn't Bowser's shadow.

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    • Foul Breath makes them more susceptible to the ailment. Similar thing to IRL resistances to disease. If I have pretty good standard resistances to catching the flu but something makes me more susceptible, it will increase the odds of me getting hit. The net result is the ailment being stronger against the target. Unless Bowser's resistances completely blow Joker's potency out of the water, I fail to see how it be ineffective.

      Being sapped of stamina is still pretty daming, I never said it was a one shot or anything like that. 

      Oh yeah of course, but Joker can still use his mind hax. I thought you were implying his moves won't work on anything but shadows.

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    • That's a false equivalence. Certain Shadow's or Persona's are outright resistant to certain status aliments. Foul Breath does not break the resistances. The problem with that example is that shadows (with some exceptions) are not resistant to these aliments. It was agreed in a CRT that shadows aren't resistant to these aliments. So overall, you're saying that a certain disease can bypass your standard resistance when shadows aren't resistant to them. And when they are, Foul Breath does nothing. Bowser with his equipment is also immune (in-game) to these abilities, so it's essentially the same case. Especially since Joker can only affect one person at a time while Bowser resists 2-3 at a time.

      Then why argue it? It's a bad wincon for Joker because it'll take a long time to drain his HP, and he has a lot more stamina than Joker does (Joker fights for hours, meanwhile Bowser has for several days).

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    • Which CRT was this? Shadows have inherent resistances and that is the whole in game reasoning for ailments hitting their targets yet having no effect. The move doesn't just fizzle for no reason despite hitting its target. Foul breath increases the chances of any one ailment hitting it's target be increasing said things susceptibility to the ailment. It's not a false equivalence, in this scenario Bowser will become more susceptible to whatever ailment Joker plans to use after casting Foul Breath. That is literally what the move does "increase target's susceptibility.". The mechanics of the move aren't going to change and fizzle on Bowser, it will infect him and make him more susceptible. 

      No, Joker can affect up to 4-5 things at a time with his various hax. He possesses single target and multiple target variants on his spells. 

      Because it can contribute to Joker's chances of winning.

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      It was in DarkGrath's revisions. Shadows do not inherit resistances, the reason for the aliments not always working are purely game mechanics. Otherwise everyone in Pokémon or any other rpg gains an automatic resistance because status aliments don't always affect characters. Again, these are only game mechanics and not resistances. Foul Breath isn't resistance negating. It raises the probability of an aliment working but it still doesn't negate a shadow's resistance. If a shadow has resistance to say, sleep manipulation, then foul breath does not bypass it and any sleep based attacks will still not work. Hell, things like raising the probability of an aliment working is already common in RPG's, yet they still don't grant resistances. So no, Foul Breath won't do jack here. Bowser still resists his mind manipulation.

      Look at the I have sent above. Joker's moves involve using the same attack on several opponents. If it was a large single blast then sure, but this isn't the case here. Joker shooting the same projectile to several enemies =/= affecting several enemies at once. This will basically just be Joker shooting the same move that only affects one person over and over with each one not affecting Bowser.

      So let me once again adress Bowser's wincons.

      Resistances: Self-explanatory

      Slim: Bowser is able to flip his body, allowing him to completely bypass any attack Joker uses.

      Perception Manipulation: Allows Bowser to have a higher success at dodging/hitting Joker.

      Catch Cards: Seals Joker body and soul.

      Duplication: Bowser can duplicate himself at least 4 times and potentially just grab Joker, making him immobile since Bowser is large enough to do this already and Joker won't break free due to his inferior lifting strength. He can also use the same item several times at once when doing this.

      Power Nullification: If Bowser jumps on Joker, then one of his abilities gets removed. He can also just suck it away from if he sees it being used once.

      Resurrection: Bowser can ressurect himself three times. Life Shroom, Retry Clock, and Earlier Times. Giving Bowser three attempts of this fight, with minor prior knowledge.

      Transmutation: Can turn Joker into blocks or music notes.

      Empathic Manipulation: Can make Joker feel sad and start crying.

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    • That's not how mindhax potency works at all. What's this shit about a blast or wave? As long as the mindhax comes from a single spell, it counts to the number of targets affected in total.

      Besides that, Yaldabaoth's mindhax and cognition affected all of humanity, even affecting the Shadows in the Collective Unconscious. Joker and the Phantom Thieves resist that. Meanwhile, they can affect each other with their own mindhax in P5R. That's straight-up mindhax capable of affecting billions. Bowser isn't resisting that.

      Perception Manip, resisted. Mind and soul manip, resisted. Empathic Manip, resisted.

      The duplication argument hinges on Joker being unable to... what? Dodge? Or I dunno, equip Repel Phys or use Tetrakarn and Bowser bounces right off him.

      Bowser can't jump on Joker. Joker is significantly more agile, and again, he has Repel Phys or Tetrakarn. Bowser would just hit himself.

      Joker incaps with most of his ailments. Despair would make Bowser want to give up and kill himself. Forget would make Bowser forget his skills and arsenal.

      Transmutation could work, but how is it applied?

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    • Yeah pretty sure Joker and co. being > Yalbadaoth individually in literally anything is bunk.

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    • It really isn't.

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    • @cal That's just pure ignorance.

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    • It is. Stop making me repeat myself. It's literally just Joker shooting the exact same attack several times at each enemy. This is NOT affecting someone several times with a single attack. I need to see scans of characters resisting their own mind manipulation.

      Perception Manipulation is resisted? How? I don't see resistance to perception manipulation anywhere. Never argued Bowser using mind manipulation, nor soul manipulation.

      Ah yes, Joker is definitely going to have an easy times against 4 Bowser's, all of which can use perception manipulation or use any item. Grabbing isn't exactly hitting someone, but this is also assuming he has those equipped or starts using said move.

      So we're just going to assume Joker will incap? He only spares when recruiting a shadow (which he kills if not working), negotiating (which doesn't work here), or in certain circumstances when affecting a real person. Joker will definitely not spare Bowser and instead go for the kill. Allowing Bowser to ressurect himself, have little prior knowledge, and ending the fight quicker.

      As I've said already, he can also just suck away Joker's abilities which isn't an actual physical attack nor projectile. But Joker being more agile is definitely debatable. Bowser has shown to be very agile in Super Mario Galaxy.

      Bowser can use dark magic, which affected the entire Mushroom Kingdom, or by dancing which doesn't need to actually hit the opponent. Bowser still has Catch Cards, which automatically lock on to an opponent which Joker won't be dodging. And again, Slim bypasses anything Joker does. He won't he able to see Bowser either. 

      Edit: Where does resistance to perception manipulation come from?

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    • Again, it is not. Nothing you said disproves the fact.

      The PT's already resist perception manipulation via being in a palace, a users personal subjective perception of the world, and resist it without cognition. So yes, he resists it. Four Bowsers means nothing in the face of AOES, AOE Multi-Hit attacks, along with him being able to summon multiple Personas. Along with the fact that Persona's are getting AE Type 1, good luck hitting them.

      He's an RPG character, so whatever he does is unknowable. Regardless, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't simply place him under one of his many status ailments. Suck away his abilities? Sure, that could work, if that works on his soul. While Joker can physically nullify his physical, magic, and evasion attempts with Binds.

      Joker's attacks spawn where he thinks, including AOES, so Joker spams attacks with no travel speed that Bowser cannot dodge.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Yeah pretty sure Joker and co. being > Yalbadaoth individually in literally anything is bunk.

      Joker one shots Yaldy with Satanael though. 

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    • Perception Manipulation is resisted because Joker and co. weren't affected by Yaldabaoth making all of humanity believe that bones erupting from the ground and raining blood is totally normal.

      Uh, yeah. Bowser can't lay a hand on him. Even if he does, Joker can switch Personas and cast Tetrakarn with a thought. The moment Bowser lays a hand on him, Joker switches to a Repel Phys Persona or uses Tetrakarn.

      Joker does whatever is most likely to work. The moment Bowser dies and comes back, Joker is smart enough to switch to incap methods. He's not going to brute-force it.

      Since when has Bowser shown the ability to suck away abilities tied directly to a person's mind and soul? Legitimate question.

      There is no way in hell Bowser is more agile than Joker, who consistently performs complex acrobatic maneuvers mid-combat with casual ease.

      What's dark magic going to do? Is it the transmutation you were talking about?

      As for Slim, what does it entail? I can't find it on Bowser's profile.

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    • Milly Rocking Bandit wrote:
      Again, it is not. Nothing you said disproves the fact.

      The PT's already resist perception manipulation via being in a palace, a users personal subjective perception of the world, and resist it without cognition. So yes, he resists it. Four Bowsers means nothing in the face of AOES, AOE Multi-Hit attacks, along with him being able to summon multiple Personas. Along with the fact that Persona's are getting AE Type 1, good luck hitting them.

      He's an RPG character, so whatever he does is unknowable. Regardless, there's no reason to assume he wouldn't simply place him under one of his many status ailments. Suck away his abilities? Sure, that could work, if that works on his soul. While Joker can physically nullify his physical, magic, and evasion attempts with Binds.

      Joker's attacks spawn where he thinks, including AOES, so Joker spams attacks with no travel speed that Bowser cannot dodge.

      Am I really going to have to repeat myself again? We. Do. Not. Measure. Potency. In. Using. The. Same. Move. Over. And. Over. That's not even logical. Explain how this even applies.

      That's not how perception manipulation works at all. Read the page for it, this isn't how it even works. Hell, this isn't even Bowser's perception manipulation as he amps his own. AoE's are useless when Bowser uses Slim. He literally becomes untouchable due to being so thin wheb using this. He also becomes invisible. Bowser doesn't need to attack the Persona's, if Joker dies then they're useless.

      That's awful logic, you cannot pick what he uses first simply because he's an RPG character, that's an assumption. You need to objectively prove what he starts with. Otherwise this what Joker can do, rather than what he will do at the start. Considering how Bowser can affect Boo's and souls, then yes. His Persona's literally go bye-bye. Also, Piccolo can simply remove Bowser's status effects even when affected.

      Bowser doesn't need to dodge it, teleportation or Slim can bypass it.

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    • That's awful logic, you cannot pick what he uses first simply because he's an RPG character, that's an assumption. You need to objectively prove what he starts with. Otherwise this what Joker can do, rather than what he will do at the start. Considering how Bowser can affect Boo's and souls, then yes. His Persona's literally go bye-bye. Also, Piccolo can simply remove Bowser's status effects even when affected.

      Except that is exactly how we treat RPG characters in VS matches. If there's no indication of what move he'd use first, we assume he'd go with the most logical move based on his knowledge and intelligence. Don't like it, then take it up with staff.

      Personas are more than just intangible souls, they're incorporeal. Their "essence" exists as a Type 1 AE located in Joker's brain. Destroy their forms all you want, they'll just come back in an instant.

      Bowser actually has to use his items to cure himself, but that's assuming that he can move to try. Ailments like Despair, Shock, Freeze, Fear, Sleep and Confusion all immobilize in one way or another. Unless Bowser can cure himself without needing to move, then his cure items are a non-factor.

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    • No, we do not treat RPG characters like this. This doesn't even just apply to RPG characters, this applies to any other video game character who's never shown to have a starting move. Do not cherrypick. "Don't like it, then take it up to the staff." A rule that staff hasn't made.

      You realize I'm not arguing for Bowser to be able to destroy them right? Bowser's power nullification literally removes the battle icon in which you use to pick your move. If Bowser sees a Persona being used, he inhales, and thus disables him from using Persona's. This won't kill the Persona's.

      Piccolo removes Bowser's status effects without Bowser needing to move.

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    • Staff members have flat out said that's the case. If you think I'm wrong, have one say otherwise and I'll concede.

      Bowser has never shown to be capable of sucking away the abilities of entities tied directly to mind and soul, much less Type 1 AEs. It's the same as trying to Power Null someone's ability to breathe. Assuming he can because of game animations is game mechanics, if not NLF.

      Piccolo can't cure status effects that don't appear in Bowser's source material, nor can it cure effects with significantly higher potency than what it's been shown to work on. Bowser hasn't dealt with Despair, afaik, and no way he can cure mental ailments as potent as Joker's.

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    • I need actual evidence instead of just saying this.

      I'm sorry, what? This is outright an exucse for Bowser not being able to nullify Persona's. If something like a forget aliment can disable Persona's (which don't affect the soul) then Bowser's power nullification definitely works here. Hell, these abilities even work against characters such as Madame Flurry who's already a soul. Not only is Bowser able to negate against abilities that people have on their own, but even simple things that don't require actual power such as jumping. Type 1 AE is irrelevant here since he's affecting the user, not the Persona.

      Joker's potency is already arguable itself since you haven't provided evidence of characters affecting themselves. Bowser already resists sleep manipulation and ice manipulation on his own. Despair is just empathic manipulation which Bowser resists. Joker's mind manipulation is still up for debate. Everything else gets resisted since it only works on a single person. This only allows Joker using brainwash, confusel and forget. 

      As for your comment I didn't see.

      That is not perception manipulation, that's literally just mind manipulation as all he did was make everyone else think this is normal. This isn't even Bowser's perception manipulation, his comes from viewing time slower (this isn't time manipulation).

      Joker won't know Bowser is ressurecting, two of his ressurection abilities are via time travel. Joker won't be aware of this at all, while Bowser can.

      And you think Bowser doesn't? When fighting Mario, who is already extremely agile, he's able to easily jump at great distances and preform several acrobatic moves. Joker isn't as agile as you claim to be. All we mostly see are flips and dodges. He isn't like Spider-Man.

      Black Magic is one of Bowser's main way to transmute. This affected the entire Mushroom Kingdom, turning Toads into bricks and other objects. Dancing is another way, in which his opponents blow up and turn into musical notes.

      Slim essentially flips Bowser into being completely flat, it works similar to Mario's flip. This allows Bowser to completely bypass anything, as it's shown to bypass enemies, projectiles, and objects. It also makes him invisible.

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    • Solacis wrote: @cal That's just pure ignorance.

      Beating him is literally a group effort. Same with like, all JRPGs. You canonically wreck his shit with a party. It's not ignorance at all. That's like saying because the FF5 cast can survive in the Void, and can resist Neo-Exdeath's attacks, but can't resist that one boss that EEs you, that means the one boss > Neo-Exdeath.

      But instead I guess Futaba can control the world with her mind if she wanted to.

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    • @Cal

      It is ignorance because I literally explain how they're superior in the context of mindhax and resistance, while you roll in and say "nah man" without so much as a counter-argument.

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    • I need to go to sleep, I'll respond to this tomorrow.

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    • @Cal 



      but Yaldaboth stomped the Phantom thieves as a group. Joker one shot  him once getting Satanael though.  it wasn't really a group effort.

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    • This isn't Joker with Satanael.

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    • I know, I was just saying that joker with satanael is above yaldy. 

      Since Cal said that Yaldy was above any indevisual phantom thief.  like pre satanael joker loses. But still.



      as for who I think wins.. neutral for now.

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    • @Weeb

      It's not an excuse. All Persona ailments affect the mind and soul. Plus, even without that, Forget nullifies Personas by making the user forget how to use them.

      What evidence do I have to give? It's blatantly shown in P5R that they can affect each other. There's no further debating that point. So no, Bowser does not resist any of Joker's mindhax.

      Joker can also slow his perception of time with the Third Eye, as shown when he goes to the batting cages.

      Even so, as I've established, Joker can easily incap with mindhax. Even if Joker follows up with a killing blow every time he mindhaxes Bowser into submission, minor knowledge Bowser gains from coming back to life is pointless since he has no means to avoid Joker's mindhax in the first place.

      So? What feat of acrobatics puts Bowser above Joker? Jumping high? Joker jumps several storeys into the air during the Shido fight. Flips, airborne maneuvers and perfect landings? His escape out of the Casino window during the prologue. He is also smaller and more flexible than Bowser.

      Slim doesn't protect against AOEs if it's just complete flatness. Plus, Slim isn't listed on Bowser's profile. Neither is Flip on Paper Mario's. How do I know the extent of this ability?

      Transmutation is Bowser's only chance, but based on his fights against Mario and co., it's not even close to an in-character move in a 1v1 fight.

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    • This is the epitome of gameplay and story segregation. There is zero lore based reason for any of the Phantom Thieves, except for maybe Joker with Satanel, to have mental capacities surpassing Yaldy.

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    • Cal, maybe you should actually make a counterargument instead of spouting "there is no reason for it" over and over.

      Let me spell it out for you:

      Yaldabaoth's mindhax stems from his manipulation of Cognition. The Phantom Thieves' suits are explicitly stated by Morgana to be a product of their willpower to resist the effects of cognitive distortions.

      By the end-game, the Phantom Thieves have reached a level of willpower that they can shrug off all of Yaldabaoth's Cognition hax, including his mindhax.

      Later, as shown in Persona 5 The Royal, they can affect each other with their own mindhax. I cannot be any more clear about this.

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    • Reread the first line of what I said.

      Gameplay and story segregation.

      Give me one good reason why Ann or Ryuji of all people should have their mental prowess, not their resistance, which has good reason, be superior to Yaldabaoth?

      The correct answer is that there is no answer. It’s gameplay.

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    • Scaling.

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    • aight, I’ve been mentioned a couple times in this thread. what bullcrap did I say that’s being brought up?

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    • Solacis
      Solacis removed this reply because:
      Nevermind
      10:07, March 4, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • The real cal howard wrote: Reread the first line of what I said.

      Gameplay and story segregation.

      Give me one good reason why Ann or Ryuji of all people should have their mental prowess, not their resistance, which has good reason, be superior to Yaldabaoth?

      The correct answer is that there is no answer. It’s gameplay.

      Who are you to decide the correct answer? As far as I'm aware, you're neither a knowledgeable, nor a participant in the verse's CRTs.

      The Phantom Thieves' hax potencies are supported by clear feats of affecting each other despite their explicitly defined feats of resisting Yaldabaoth's own hax, following the logic defined clearly by the verse's lore.

      You are literally spouting nothing but guesswork with no feats or logic to back it up, and you expect people to believe it?

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    • I don’t have to be intimate with Persona to know a blatant versus debating fallacy. Kinda something you need to know once you’re on a versus debating site for five years. You keep on using gameplay feats when the story doesn’t support the claims your making. If Kasumi for example had a story element where she outperform’s Yaldy’s control, sure. I’d shut up instantly. But you’re literally using gameplay mechanics. Again, I’m not doubting their resistances, nor am I doubting them having the abilities. I’m saying the potency doesn’t scale to Yaldabaoth.

      Btw, my best friend at college is in love with the Persona series to the point where we talk about it every time we meet up, and one of the main characters in the story I’ve been working on for the past 6 years is visually inspired by Futaba. I may not have played the games but don’t think I don’t have a vested interest in the series.

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    • Literally name one game mechanic I'm using. Cognition is an in-universe power system. Every feat I've brought up has supporting statements in the story.

      The source of the Phantom Thieves' resistance? Morgana explains it even before Ryuji awakens. The Phantom Suits are formed and powered by willpower, existing to defend them from Cognitive distortions.

      Yaldabaoth's mindhax is a product of Cognition? He blatantly admits that he's rigged the game from the start, making it so that humanity would always come to forget that the Phantom Thieves ever existed.

      The Phantom Thieves come to resist the effects of Yaldabaoth's Cognition? Yaldabaoth used Cognition to erase the Phantom Thieves from existence, which they later come back from. In the Velvet Room, the Phantom Thieves renew their resolve, granting them enough willpower to resist Yaldabaoth's existence erasure. Furthermore, due to the nature of Cognition, Yaldy's EE is passive once activated, so the fact that the Thieves could come back to reality and not immediately get erased again is further proof that they now resist the effects of his cognition.

      In P5R, no spoilers, but the Phantom Thieves are shown to be capable of affecting each other with their hax, including mindhax.

      Just because you love the series and talk about it a lot does not mean you are knowledgeable on the subject to the extent needed for this discussion. Everyone that participated in the revision threads love the series, yet we obviously didn't come up with all this in a day.

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    • I'm sorry, what? This is outright an exucse for Bowser not being able to nullify Persona's. If something like a forget aliment can disable Persona's (which don't affect the soul) then Bowser's power nullification definitely works here. Hell, these abilities even work against characters such as Madame Flurry who's already a soul. Not only is Bowser able to negate against abilities that people have on their own, but even simple things that don't require actual power such as jumping. Type 1 AE is irrelevant here since he's affecting the user, not the Persona.

      Ailments and attacks, once more, do damage the soul. Reminder that Shadows exist within the users Sea of Souls, and their Personal Unconsciousness. Shadows make this clear every single time to talk to them, without fail. And again, unless he can pluck the moves from Joker's mind and soul, especially on the level of an abstract, that will not matter. Joker can similarly do the same thing, nullify your ability to attack, use magic, or even move. How fast can Bowser do it? Joker does it by a thought, and can use all three of those Binds at once.

      Joker's potency is already arguable itself since you haven't provided evidence of characters affecting themselves. Bowser already resists sleep manipulation and ice manipulation on his own. Despair is just empathic manipulation which Bowser resists. Joker's mind manipulation is still up for debate. Everything else gets resisted since it only works on a single person. This only allows Joker using brainwash, confusel and forget. 

      Joker's ailments, once more, do not work on one person, that's quite literally game animation, which varies from game to game. In Persona 5, it visually shows the blast hitting each target (which again, stems from one spell), but is differed in Persona 3 (in Persona 3 it is instant) and 4. Even if he did resist those things, Joker can Ice Break, or Foul Breath him, reducing his resistance to nothing. Even if those three ailments are all he has left, they are still just as dangerous, and with AOE attacks such as Brain Buster, Memory Blow, and Mind Slice, which inflict these on all foes, Bowser can easily be incapped.

      Everything else Sol handled.

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    • @Milly

      Best to leave Bind skills for after the PQ revisions. They're not on the profiles yet.

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    • Right.

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    • @Solacis Aliments only affect souls because they are already exposed. Otherwise I can say the exact same thing for Bowser due to already being able to affect Boo's. It isn't considered soul manipulation, just NPI. Attacking the mind only works against people's cognitive version which only works after destroying their shadow which isn't the case here.

      Burden of proof is on you. P5R isn't even out here yet, so showing a video of this scenerio would help.

      Isn't Bowser's first time fighting someone with perception amplification, plus other Pixls increase his speed as well. This isn't something Joker can remove since he would need to kill the source.

      You have yet to prove Joker's starting move, no mod here as claimed that we can just assume what an RPG character will do at the start. It's completely biologic to just assume Joker will do this move when he can do literally anything else. Why would he use this move? Why wouldn't he use something else? We need actual evidence of him starting with a move, otherwise these are just assumptions. Bowser can teleport, hide inside his shell (which isn't part of his body), or use Slim to bypass these moves. We're also assuming Bowser is just going to stay and let it happen when he can finish the fight himself with something like a sealing or transmutation which Joker won't be dodging either of due to Catch Cards automatically locking on to your opponent without actually needing to travel and dark magic having huge range/Music Keys not needing to hit your opponents. All of these options are fast and will finish Joker that allow him to dodge.

      Hmm, how about Bowser being able to jump higher than Mario and Luigi who already can jump several stories high while doing several flips and attacks mid-air while landing perfectly DURING combat against Mario/Luigi. Mario and Luigi are a lot more agile than Joker, being able to perform several jumps and attacks that involve both of them to spin their bodies tens if not more to attack, roll into a perfect ball and being able to bounce off enemies, etc. He's even able to keep up with a row of enemies in front and above coming at him all at once while Dark Bowser swoops in as well. He's also able to completely from himself into a perfect ball, being able to use his shell as a round shield. Yeah, no. Joker is not as agile.

      Slim does protect against AoE, it's perfect flatness to the point even omnidirectional attacks just completely go through him. Not everything Bowser has is on his profile due to appearing in many many games, however the CRT sandbox currently displays this. Flip is on normal Mario's profile, Paper Mario and Mario are the same canon with Paper Jam being a seperate one.

      Mario is resistant to transmutation due to being unaffected by his magic and Kamek's, of course he won't use it. He's used it many times on Toads.

      Other than his mind manipulation still being debatable on potency, his other abilites are completely resisted due to affecting one person at a time. He still has power nullification which still works against Joker.

      @Milky Rocking Bandit As said above, hitting an exposed soul isn't soul manipulation. GyroNutz already said this. As for power nullification, coming from his mind and soul is literally irreverent. Bowser can already remove abilites people are born with or even simple attacks such as jumping or use items. If simple things such as forgetting how to summon a Persona can stop Joker, which only affects his mind, then Bowser's can work. I've already explained so many times why this is irreverent. Type 1 AE is irrelevant when this DOES NOT affect the Persona, this affects Joker himself which is needed to bypass Type 1 AE. Joker's moves can still be dodged and reacted, so his attacks aren't as fast as being thought based. Maybe sending them out, but the speed of the attack itself is a no. Mario and Luigi themselves can't bypass this.

      "Game animations" is an awful argument. The animation outright displays how this attack works, do not make headcanons and start claiming that Joker can just make a blast large enough to affect everyone. Until proven otherwise, this is how the attacks go. You cannot scale Persona 3 and 4 because these are different protagonist and different games. Ice Break as far as I'm aware doesn't affect someone with complete immunity in-game, which is the case for Bowser here. I've already argued against Foul Breath above, which still doesn't negate complete resistances in the game. Foul Breath in Pesona 5 doesn't remove Shadow's "block" resistant.

      Joker still has no ways to bypass sealing or transmutation.

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    • Joker should resist matter manip which transmutation is a subset of due to cognition but revisions are slow

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    • Not really, hell he has to quickly leave a palace when being destoryed. Palace owners could have matter manipulation, but they don't have attacks that involve it.

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    • Why is transmutation being argued anyways? High-Godly auto negs transmutation

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    • High-Godly? Where does that come from?

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    • Yes, they're getting High-Godly from coming back from Yaldy's history EE.

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    • Yaldy conceptually nuked the PTs from all of history and they just came back.

      It's listed as mid-godly rn but that's because it wasnt updated with the high-godly revisions

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    • Doesn’t Joker still have to worry about getting beaten to death on like...every other occasion..?

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    • Huh? It's been agreed here that we don't count Yaldabaoth erasing them as regeneration, who added this ability back?

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    • You mean Pre-Endgame? Yeah.

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    • @Weeb

      Did you read the thread that the blog applied to? It was agreed to remove the "Mid-Godly on EE" and repla e it with possibly Mid-Godly

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    • So in total, there are many different potential causes for how he could have returned to the Velvet Room that would not scale to his specific abilities. There are more conservative interpretations of this scene that could be used. It is not exclusive to when he is erased from existence. It isn't necessarily a Mid-Godly feat. And he consistently has Mid-Low regen feats at best. So giving him Mid-Godly, specifically only applicable when Existence Erasure is used is barely substantiated.

      Solution: Remove Mid-Godly regen from Ren’s profile.

      The only reason there was a "possibly" added was because one person suggested it and no person touched it after that. Hell, we were supposed to make it only Low-Godly regardless. Might make a thread for this honestly.

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    • Low-Godly would still negate transmutation either way.

      I'd advise you to not make a thread now, the Persona revisions discord is already working on things.

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    • Low-Godly does not negate transmutation. At least not Bowser's as his affects ghosts as well.

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    • Gahd, is the regeneration stuff being brought up again?

      It’s just conjecture. We know that the PT’s survived being EE’d by Yaldabaoth, and there are tons of different ways that this could be explained in the context of the story.

      Mid-Godly requires making the absolute most intense assumption by saying it was entirely their own abilities that accomplished it, and that it was definitely the entire erasure of their body and soul, that nothing else had any part in it, and that we can accept a level of regeneration based on a single feat that is ludicrously inconsistent with their usual depicted level of regeneration in every other scene under the assumption that “it only activates on EE” when Vs Debates act like it’s always active.

      I gave in to giving a “Possibly” for it, since it’s still technically possible, so it can’t just be tossed out. But Jesus, it’s conjecture with little to no basis and wouldn’t even be functional here.

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    • Honestly, Occam's Razor would mean the PT shouting get this.

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    • @DarkGrath

      Well, I've actually had a counterargument for your points against Mid-Godly for a little while now. We can discuss it on the revision server.

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    • It's not really conjecture Grath. Yaldabaoth flat out erases them from existence after fusing the two universes. Which would include there mind and soul. At the very minimum it was Joker's willpower and innate power as "the trickster" to defy the fate of "the god". You can't just blatantly ignore a feat because you don't like the outcome. Your argument that "it's inconsistent with other showings of regen" also isn't the best because it is their end game key vs the strongest foe they had fought to that point and had been pushed to the absolute limit. Also of note is that Yald also had control of the velvet room so it isn't like "their existences were erased and mysteriously regend in an area of existence ylady had no sway over" which wouldn't even make much sense without an outside force (which there is none bar Ren) facilitating.



      My personal opinion is that it only applies to Ren due to the whole end game scene where he returns the velvet room and finds all of his friends imprisoned there and soul searches a bit before they are all free and meet up for the gameplan to take Yaldy down.

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    • @Dr. whiteee

      This isn't the place for that discussion regardless. If you'd like, we can make a minor CRT to address that subject right now. No point delaying it since apparently we're already debating it anyway.

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    • A FANDOM user
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