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  • At least Country level (According to Yhwach, he reclaimed the power he used to defeat Aizen, and he was able to hold Yhwach back and stagger him with a Getsuga Tenshō)

    The given reason for scaling True Shikai Ichigo to Dangai Ichigo is stupid as hell! Not only did True Shikai Ichigo managed to stagger Almighty Yhwach with his Getsuga Tensho, but he also managed to easily cut through Soul King Yhwach's planet level reiatsu by a large mile inches away from reaching him. He even managed to shrugs off attacks from Almighty Yhwach and Soul King Yhwach while barely injured. Yes, Ichigo didn't manage to do any damage to Yhwach prior to Hollowfication, but Yhwach was still on defensive protecting himself with his reiatsu. Also if Almighty Yhwach has planet level attack potency and planet level defense potency, how could True Shikai Ichigo even manage to hold him back at bay or even stagger him in the first place while being only country level? Funny thing is, Ichigo not only managed to hold Yhwach at bay, but also drew blood from Yhwach's arm by simply gripping onto his arm tightly or with the pressure of his reiatsu! It's not like Yhwach was even being gentle with Ichigo.

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    • I had suggested at least Moon Level to Small Planet Level from Yhwach's casual Wandereich lifting feat since when True Shikai Ichigo fights him Yhwach had already siphoned the powers from Pernida (Another Arm of the Soul King) and from what ever Quincy that died... Also Ichigo did still kill the Soul King (Albeit under Yhwach's influence)

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    • iirc , ichigo only suceeded at killing the soul king thank to the energy Yhwach lended him throught his sword when ichigo pulled it out .

      And during that encounter , yhwach clearly wasn't serious when facing ichigo : when ichigo blocked his arm , yhwach camly respond by " get out of the way ,ichigo" and don't even really try to push him out himself , he clearly doesn't want to really hurt ichigo.

      There is arguments to prop him up to planet level via scaling , but there is as much counter arguments possible .

      i personally am more in the safe side , keep him at his current rating as there is no clear cut evidence that true shikai scale to a serious Almighty Yhwach , the SK or even mimihagi .

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    • True Shikai Ichigo is a Jobber

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    • PIS AND CIS

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    • .

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    • Is that a bump?

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    • Naeblis495 wrote: iirc , ichigo only suceeded at killing the soul king thank to the energy Yhwach lended him throught his sword when ichigo pulled it out .

      And during that encounter , yhwach clearly wasn't serious when facing ichigo : when ichigo blocked his arm , yhwach camly respond by " get out of the way ,ichigo" and don't even really try to push him out himself , he clearly doesn't want to really hurt ichigo.

      There is arguments to prop him up to planet level via scaling , but there is as much counter arguments possible .

      i personally am more in the safe side , keep him at his current rating as there is no clear cut evidence that true shikai scale to a serious Almighty Yhwach , the SK or even mimihagi .

      This is shown also, when Juha and Ichigo fight in the Royal Palace in the Soul King's Quarters. Ichigo charges Juha down, and Juha blocks Ichigo's advance WITH HIS CAPE while the Almighty Eyes are active. Then Juha gets pissed and charges Mimihagi later, and Ichigo jumps in front of him and grabs his arm before Juha can react, and when Juha pulls his arm away you can see blood spewing from his arm, indicating that Ichigo actually Reiatsu burned him like Aizen did to Gin. Some people claim this is Mimihagi's Reiatsu clinging to Juha's arm, but that makes no sense as there's no energy anywhere Near Juha's hand in this image.

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917607-8340857879-tm3lg.png

      We clearly see none of Mimihagi's reiatsu anywhere near Juha's arm in the panel above, and Juha's hand is clean in this panel aside from these stray streams of liquid.

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917622-9770413175-sVNMY.png

      Page 11, there's now a crap ton of liquid compared to the above panel of the initial grab, now streaming from Juha's arm.

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917626-6956197789-P_DdK.png

      Page 13. Still spraying.

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917630-1632410334-KR3ic.png

      Still spraying actually lands on Ichigo's face.

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917632-7622846960-VKAlc.png

      Still spraying

      https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11113/111139434/5917634-6443751223-9N4Zy.png

      Mimihagi's shadows have no reason to be in that area, nor do they have any reason to be in that area for such an amount of time, nor do they have any reason to be violently spurting from Juha's arm, nor would it have any reason to be spraying directly towards Ichigo and nowhere else. So Ichigo was clearly stronger than Juha before the Soul King Amp, even in base, but Juha was still capable of holding his own via the Almighty. This pattern continues later after the Soul King amp as Ichigo reveals more and more of his power.

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    • because when Ichigo killed the SK it was Yhwach's power not his own.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote: because when Ichigo killed the SK it was Yhwach's power not his own.

      And the same True Shikai Ichigo still managed to drew blood from Almighty Yhwach's arm with just the pressure of his own reiatsu/him physically gripping onto his arm tightly. Also you completely ignore to address every other things that I said.

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    • got a colored scan to show it's blood?

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    • Here u go, and no blood.

      88d64b35b86d4c4280a8b08b5ad24113
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    • Is that page official? Where can I find the rest of the series in full color?

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    • Yes.

      Buying it with money.

      here

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    • I'm not trolling but I'm actually seeing snipets of red, maybe because of Ichigo's hair ? Or the way it was shaded ?

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    • The red snippets is the tone of the dark color. It's similar to Yhwach's cloak which is portrayed as dark black but you'll see that dark red tone on the edges.

      Blood in the colored Bleach scans is very clear that it's blood given how bright it is.

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    • Sigurd Snake in The Eye wrote: Here u go, and no blood.

      88d64b35b86d4c4280a8b08b5ad24113

      I need the rest of the manga scan if you don't mind.

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    • If TS Ichigo becomes planet level it will scale to Uryu and Haschelwaith right ?

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    • LordWhis wrote:
      If TS Ichigo becomes planet level it will scale to Uryu and Haschelwaith right ?

      Yes, Uryu was able to hurt Yhwach with the arrow, and Jugram possess the Almighty himself.

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    • True Shikai Ichigo should be at least Small Planet, since he could withstand the onslaught of a Casual Yhwach.

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    • I already provided the reasonings for why TS Ichigo shouldn't be scaling and I see nothing new for him to scale further.

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    • IMadeThisOn8-1-2017 wrote:
      I already provided the reasonings for why TS Ichigo shouldn't be scaling and I see nothing new for him to scale further.

      It still just looks wrong for the rating his TS stands at

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    • I understand his rating looks wrong, and that's because it is wrong right now.

      The multiplier scaling thread is underway that will fix the ratings and close the large gaps visible on profiles.

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    • When are we finishing up that thread anyway? I recall Ant asking for a summary and someone providing it. Is it just mods needing to look over it?

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    • We are done with the multipliers thread they have been accepted. We just need to revise the profiles with the multipliers after all the calcs have been finalized.

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    • The calcs ..... are we talking about the ones we have had for half a year or are there others I am forgetting? Ignoring the Ulq calcs because we those never get progress ovo

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    • I think it’s everything. BoS 7-A storm calc is now High 7-C/Low 7-B due to storm revision. Same with a High 6-C Arrancar Arc storm calc turning into a 6-C storm calc. Both of the storm calcs are important and still need to be evaluated.

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    • actually only the 7-A storm matters, no one else in the verse scales to any storms.

      But it hasn't been evaluated yet.

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    • Wasn’t the FKT one deemed wrong cuz they scaled the thickness shown in the gap to the thickness of an entire cloud despite what was considered the sky was actually the snow he called forth? The SS Tenso Jurin should be fast to accept tho, just slapping the numbers into a different formula from what I understood.

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    • I don’t know the exact details but yeah I don’t think Toshiro’s storm in the Arrancad Arc is usable. But the main problem is that Gran Rey Cero is probably an outlier now.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      I don’t know the exact details but yeah I don’t think Toshiro’s storm in the Arrancad Arc is usable. But the main problem is that Gran Rey Cero is probably an outlier now.

      huh

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    • Toshiro’s Tenso Jurin was literally the only other High 6-C feat in the Arrancar Arc. The next best feat after this was Fullbring Shikai Ichigo’s cloud split which is just 6-C. And Fullbring Shikai Ichigo >>> Arrancar Arc characters. There’s also Yamamoto’s High 6-C feat but he scales above Gremmy who is Low 6-B. And originally 7-A to High 6-C was consistent via multipliers but now that Soul Soceity characters are High 7-C/Low 7-B not even multipliers are saving Gran Rey Cero from becoming an outlier.

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    • Some characters already have a tier with their bankai, so it's already not consistent with the stated 5-10x boost. But I'm curious what the proposed ratings will be using them.

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    • Well that’s because that was back than multipliers haven’t been accepted. Now they are but the profiles still haven’t been updated because of calcs getting revised.

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    • If they have feats in their bankai forms, you can't just disregard them to make the multipliers genuine. Like I said before, I'd like to see the ratings for the multiplier.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      Toshiro’s Tenso Jurin was literally the only other High 6-C feat in the Arrancar Arc. The next best feat after this was Fullbring Shikai Ichigo’s cloud split which is just 6-C. And Fullbring Shikai Ichigo >>> Arrancar Arc characters.

      Toshiro has a 6-C calc though.

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    • Well actually there's still Espada 1-4 having the same effect as Gran Rey just by going resurreccion. And Desgarron being > GRC.

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    • @Sigurd Exactly Arrancar Arc Toshiro has a 6-C feat that defeated Resurreccion Harribel and Fullbring Shikai Ichigo also has a 6-C feat and than there’s Gran Rey Cero which is High 6-C and got no selled by Resurreccion Grimmjow. You see the problem now?

      We have two 6-C calc from somebody stronger than characters that no sell Gran Rey Cero.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      Exactly Arrancar Arc Toshiro has a 6-C feat that defeated Resurreccion Harribel and Fullbring Shikai Ichigo also has a 6-C feat and than there’s Gran Rey Cero which is High 6-C and got no selled by Resurreccion Grimmjow. You see the problem now?

      Not really tbh.

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    • >Toshiro

      >Defeated Halibel

      Well we all know that's fake

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    • @Sigurd Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.

      Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro’s Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it’s probably gonna be even lower.

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo has a 14.68 feat and he is far stronger than Tsukishima who can fight and hurt Post-Timeskip Byakuya who is stronger than his Arrancar self who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form alongside Kenpachi.

      @Dangai Toshiro did briefly defeat and seal Harribel using Tenso Jurin. Which was recalced at 6-C and probably gonna be recalced again with an even lower result based on Damage’s reply in the comments.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      @Sigurd Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.

      Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro’s Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it’s probably gonna be even lower.

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo has a 14.68 feat albeit a casual one is far stronger than Tsukishima who can fight and hurt Post-Timeskip Byakuya who is stronger than his Arrancar self who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form.

      @Dangai Toshiro did briefly defeat and seal Harribel using Tenso Jurin. Which was recalced at 6-C and probably gonna be recalced again with an even lower result based on Damage’s reply in the comments.

      How big was ichigo's feat ? I don't think it was just the clouds since the mansion behind Ginjo also got vaped away.

      Which didn't kill her, despite that being the purpose of the Tenso Jurin...And the one who DID defeat her was Aizen...Toshiro is always the problem at this point. He's the jobber Captain yet he's the one who fights the 3rd strongest Espada at the time

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    • This is the new remade calc for Ichigo’s cloud split that was accepted

      She and Starrk were amazed by its power and she couldn’t do a thing to once Tenso Jurin was activated. I think it’s pretty self explanatory that Tenso Jurin > Resurreccion Harribel. Her not being killed by it doesn’t matter much.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      This is the new remade calc for Ichigo’s cloud split that was accepted

      She and Starrk were amazed by its power and she couldn’t do a thing to once Tenso Jurin was activated. I think it’s pretty self explanatory that Tenso Jurin > Resurreccion Harribel. Her not being killed by it doesn’t matter much.

      Which just feels awkward when done by the jobber

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    • I think part of the reason Toshiro was successful against Hallibel was the nature of his power

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    • Toshiro really isn’t a jobber. Bankai Toshiro was having a pretty okay fight with Resurreccion Harribel going back and forth blocking and cancelling her attacks.

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    • Peter1129 wrote:
      Toshiro really isn’t a jobber. Bankai Toshiro was having a pretty okay fight with Resurreccion Harribel going back and forth blocking and cancelling her attacks.

      Wasn't she the one cancelling his attacks though ? I may have to read it again. But really outside of his Adult form, Grimmjow's Fraccion, Yukio and in this. Toshiro jobbed a lot

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    • No they actually had a back and forth where they kept blocking and cancelling each other’s attack.

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    • Alright let me get my list again for reasons why I hate Toshiro

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    • >Exactly Arrancar Arc Toshiro has a 6-C feat that defeated Resurreccion Harribel

      Not really, Hyoten Hakkaso is more of a hax ability. He just manipulates the clouds to generate snow to form the ice flowers.

      >Resurreccion Grimmjow no selled Gran Rey Cero which is 121 Gigatons.

      CFYOW Grimmjow did, but Arrancar Arc Grimmjow didn't. However he should scale above it through Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo.

      >Resurreccion Harribel who is far stronger than Resurreccion Grimmjow got defeated by Toshiro’s Tenso Jurin which is currently recalced at 21.87 Gigaton but from what the comments say it’s probably gonna be even lower.

      Tenso Jurin is not Hyoten Hakkaso.

      Hyoten Hakkaso is not an AP based ability.

      >She and Starrk were amazed by its power... 

      Harribel and Starrk were amazed by the weather manipulating, nothing about power.

      >she couldn’t do a thing to once Tenso Jurin was activated

      She couldn't do a thing once Hyoten Hakkaso activated, Toshiro literally states this right as it's happening.

      >I think it’s pretty self explanatory that Tenso Jurin > Resurreccion Harribel.

      No, it's Hyoten Hakkaso > Resurreccion Harribel. But Hyoten Hakkaso isn't AP based.

      >No they actually had a back and forth where they kept blocking and cancelling each other’s attack.

      That's not true. Toshiro never physically crosses blades with Resurreccion Harribel.

      The only interactions are between their abilities and it's not scalable truly since it was based on freezing or melting the other's attack.

      Hell, Harribel easily breaks out of Toshiro's ice when frozen by his surprise attack, easily destroys his Bankai ice wings with a Cero, easily destroys his Bankai ice tail with a strike and easily takes her arm out of being frozen.

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    • Fair enough about Hyoten Hyakkaso.

      Yeah I messed up there I meant Resurreccion Grimmjow fought Post-Ressurection Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo who no sold Gran Rey Cero.

      Fair enough here as well

      The weather manipulation is the 6-C feat though.

      Yeah I kinda mixed up Hyoten Hyakkaso with Tenso Jurin. But isn’t Hyoten Hyakkaso powered by Tenso Jurin?

      But isn’t that the whole reason they are scaled to each other in the first place? You made the High 6-C thread and said they are comparable to each other because of the back and forth.

      But yeah anyways after all the calcs will be finalized we’ll probably discuss which calcs are usable on another thread.

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    • >The weather manipulation is the 6-C feat though.

      All they can tell is the sky is changing randomly and someone is doing it.

      They don't have powers that change nature, so it's not surprising that they are amazed by a sudden change in the weather over them by an enemy.

      >Yeah I kinda mixed up Hyoten Hyakkaso with Tenso Jurin. But isn’t Hyoten Hyakkaso powered by Tenso Jurin?

      Tenso Jurin manipulates the weather and Toshiro makes it form snow.

      The snow is unique in that it instantly freezes into ice flowers that aren't AP based.

      >But isn’t that the whole reason they are scaled to each other in the first place? You made the High 6-C thread and said they are comparable to each other because of the back and forth.

      That's on me for doing that CRT in a rush to push it out and make it end quickly.

      Bankai Toshiro was physically contending with a serious Base Harribel, so Resurreccion being x 5 her Base explains why he could not contend with her Resurreccion. We should take the Resurreccion rating, divide by 5 to get her Base and then scale Bankai Toshiro to that.

      That is if we don't find a replacement rating for Toshiro's Shikai or Bankai. Recall that that there is no difference between Toshiro's Shikai and Bankai except for the amount of ice per his own words.

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    • I guess that makes sense.

      Alright.

      Bankai Toshiro contending with Base Harribel does seem much more consistent with him fighting Resureccion Luppi just a few days prior.

      I'd assume his Bankai also boost his AP but if he really did say there's no difference other than the amount of ice he controls than I guess we won't consider it a 5x multiplier.

      Although to be honest we probably would need to consider Gran Rey Cero an outlier. Even assuming all the multipliers are 10x there would still be a huge gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters now. Which makes no sense as we see that Soul Society Arc Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can injure Base Grimmjow. Which means the gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters isn't that big and could be closed up with the multipliers. But right now if we use Gran Rey Cero Arrancar Arc chracters like Base Grimmjow would be a couple million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

      Not to mention there's the whole thing with Fullbring Arc only having a 6-C feat and Arrancar Arc Toshiro's 6-C Storm calc begin incorrect.

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    • Unless...Toshiro in Soul Society really took his L from Aizen really badly and then went on a massive training arc until the Arrancar arc, which he kinda was when we see him training Jinzen with Ikkaku, well Ikkaku was doing Jinzen and Toshirou was just sitting there

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    • Thing is we know the gap between stronger Soul Society Arc characters and the weaker Arrancar Arc characters aren't that big based on Ichigo and Grimmjow's fight. This isn't like the Post-Timeskip Arcs where nobody can scale to Pre-Timeskip characters as they never fought anybody from the previous arcs and going by scaling they are way stronger. Toshiro only went from Fraccion Lvl (Shawlong) to Privaron Espada Lvl (Luppi) with his training and Tenso Jurin is broken enough to allow him to briefly defeat Espada lvl (Harribel) characters.

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    • For a lot of captains there is almost no difference in progression within the series.

      For example Shunsui, dude is pretty lazy and never trains and Jushiro is always sick.

      Unohana just drinks tea all the day with Yama lol.

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    • I mean they are the oldest and strongest captains I the series they have pretty much reached their peak strength. Shunsui and Jushiro scales to the Post-Timeskip characters while Unohana and Yamamoto scales to Post-Muken Kenpachi.

      But the younger captains have been shown to get stronger same with the lieutenants. Speaking of it's really stupid to think the lieutenants never got stronger through the series. All the lieutenants need more keys. 

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    • >I'd assume his Bankai also boost his AP but if he really did say there's no difference other than the amount of ice he controls than I guess we won't consider it a 5x multiplier.

      Yep, Toshiro explains to Bazz-B that his Shikai and Bankai only have a difference in the amount of ice made.

      >Although to be honest we probably would need to consider Gran Rey Cero an outlier.

      Don't see how, doesn't contradict anything given.

      > Even assuming all the multipliers are 10x there would still be a huge gap between Soul Society Arc characters and Arrancar Arc characters now. 

      There is a 1 month time-skip training for Ichigo's Hollowfication in which others are also training during.

      Also, many background characters don't seem to be training like Yama, Unohana, Shunsui, Urahara and Ukitake while also being characters who don't display feats in the SS arc. There can't be outliers for them.

      >Soul Society Arc Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can injure Base Grimmjow.

      Soul Society Arc Bankai Ichigo literally had his attacks no-sold by Base Grimmjow except for his Getsuga. And even then, Grimmjow said it was weak and 100 of them wouldn't defeat him.

      There's a clear difference in AP between his physicals and his Getsuga, and even the Getsuga barely did anything.

      >But right now if we use Gran Rey Cero Arrancar Arc chracters like Base Grimmjow would be a couple million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo.

      Well first of all Base Grimmjow doesn't scale to Gran Rey Cero, only Resurreccion Grimmjow does. Also, Base Grimmjow casually no-sells beginning of Arrancar Arc Shikai Ichigo's strikes, so he's much higher anyways.



      Another thing is there really isn't much AP feats in the SS arc, we don't really know the level of power of most characters since the feats are so few and don't scale to many.

      We have Toshiro's cloud feats and destroying a small building.

      Kenpachi and Ichigo destroying half a small city.

      Komamura and Tosen destroying part of a small building with Shikai.

      Byakuya and Ichigo shaking a hill and such in their fight.

      In the end, we're most likely going to have to backscale for SS arc ratings given the lack of feats and the few feats we have don't scale far at all. Plus the fact that many characters in the SS arc have the same level of power to the Arrancar arc anyways or even till the Timeskip (Yamamoto, Shunsui, Ukitake, Urahara and Unohana are pretty much the same power level through the series).

      >Not to mention there's the whole thing with Fullbring Arc only having a 6-C feat

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo, but that doesn't matter since Fullbring Shikai scales from Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo of the Arrancar arc.

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    • And said Fullbring Shikai Ichigo was only flexing and probably not going all out against Base Ginjo

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    • Dont we have ikkakus feat? Don't they all scale to that right now? The feats you mentioned above should also be calced as well.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote: Dont we have ikkakus feat? Don't they all scale to that right now? The feats you mentioned above should also be calced as well.

      Nevermind, ikkakus feat is from the next arc.

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    • @IMade 

      Alright so I guess no AP multiplier for Toshiro's Bankai.

      Soul Society Arc Toshiro performed the storm feat while being pissed at Gin which pretty much means he's serious. So that's his best feat in the Soul Society Arc. I would be fine with Gran Rey Cero if there were more feats supporting it but right now there aren't. 

      After that training Toshiro was still struggling against Luppi who we learned in CFYOW was actually a privaron Espada. Those background characters already scale far above the characters in the Pre-Timeskip arcs.

      It was Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo that injured Base Grimmjow not Bankai Ichigo. He very clearly states that the black Getsuga was White's ability so that time he was briefly using Hollowfication. And I wouldn't say this barely did anything, the attack was still strong enough to give him a scar. Also Grimmjow said those Getsugas wouldn't be able to defeat him in Resureccion not Base.

      Base Grimmjow would still be over a million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo either way. 

      Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo scales to Soul Society Arc Toshiro who lets say scales to the 2.5 Megatons end of the new calc. And we also assume the multipliers are 10x rather than 5x. So Base Grimmjow would be 12.1 Gigatons for being 10x weaker than Gran Rey Cero via multipliers from Resureccion. While Soul Society Shikai Ichigo is 2.5 Megatons, Bankai would be 25 Megatons and Hollowficarion would be 250 Megatons.

      Shikai Ichigo would be 4.84M times weaker, Bankai would be 484K times weaker and Hollowfication would be 48.4K times weaker than Base Grimmjow which makes no sense as we saw that Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can impress and injure Base Grimmjow. And this was assuming the multiplier was 10x even though the accepted end is 5x which means the gap in actuality is even bigger.

      Toshiro's cloud feat was done while he was pissed at Gin that pretty much shows he is likely going serious right off the bat so we do have a feat to scale Soul Society Arc characters to.

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo who is much much stronger than his Arrancar Arc self only having a 6-C feat makes High 6-C Arrancar Arc characters seem like even more of an outlier. But yeah like I said we should put this off and discuss it after all the calcs have been made or revised.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote:

      That was done by early Arrancar Arc Ikkaku before the training so that should still count as Soul Society Arc Ikkaku which scales to Soul Society Arc lieutenants.

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    • I think we should finish up the calcs before the multipliers are added to see if its consistent.

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    • We already have SS Captains who scale to HM Captains though. Post Ichigo fight Kenny is the same one who fights and beats Nnoitra. Tosen and Sajin can fight and wound this guy. Tenso Jurin isn’t Shiro’s limit or anything like that, just his passive reiatsu.

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    • Late Arrancar Arc Kenpachi isn’t Soul Society Arc Kenpachi. Also Kenpachi is a weird thing so we don’t even know if he was at Nnoitra’s Lvl when he fought Sajin and Tosen. Like we literally saw him go from struggling against Resureccion Nnoitra to soloing Resureccion 1st Form Yammy in the span of a few minutes to at most an hour.

      Tenso Jurin isn’t his passive reiatsu it’s pretty clear that it’s an active ability that is more powerful than his normal Bankai. It is clearly his limit in his unmatured Bankai and it’s only 6-C if not lower according to Damage in the comments.

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    • My Yamamoto 6-A calculation has been accepted, but no one has implemented it yet.

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    • Pretty sure we are just leaving it for the end and waiting for the Pre-Timeskip parts of the verse to be revised first. The Post-Timeskip parts can be left for later. Also we are still waiting for more calcs I guess.

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    • USklaverei wrote: My Yamamoto 6-A calculation has been accepted, but no one has implemented it yet.

      You'd probably have to get it re-evaluated due to kne calc member accepting it and one not.

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    • No. Kenny zenkai boosts whenever he is near death. He almost died to Ichigo and amped to Nnoitra level unless you wanna tell me of a time in between those two fights he came close to dying? Because he dabbed on Tosen and Sajin ran off leaving him nowhere close to dying. He states he was gonna die against Nnoitra if it continued any longer meaning he was close to death, ergo he amped and then bullied Yammy.

      He never states it’s active, he states it is an ability, of which passives exist. Tenso Jurin is passive except he is actively holding it back as there are allies around, not that it’s his limit.

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    • >Soul Society Arc Toshiro performed the storm feat while being pissed at Gin which pretty much means he's serious. So that's his best feat in the Soul Society Arc.

      What's this in response to?

      >I would be fine with Gran Rey Cero if there were more feats supporting it but right now there aren't. 

      Nothing contradicts it, at the same time the Resurreccion of 4-1 support it.

      >After that training Toshiro was still struggling against Luppi who we learned in CFYOW was actually a privaron Espada.

      What? Struggling? Luppi's attack did no damage to Toshiro and then Toshiro purposefully prepared an attack to one-shot Luppi.

      >It was Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo that injured Base Grimmjow not Bankai Ichigo. He very clearly states that the black Getsuga was White's ability so that time he was briefly using Hollowfication.

      That's not Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo.

      Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo is the one with the mask.

      Hollowfying Bankai Ichigo is when Zangetsu is in control and the Hollow body is forming.

      >And I wouldn't say this barely did anything, the attack was still strong enough to give him a scar.

      A shallow cut isn't much.

      >Base Grimmjow would still be over a million times stronger than Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo either way. 

      That doesn't really matter since Base Grimmjow no-sells Shikai Ichigo and Bankai Ichigo's physical strikes.

      >Soul Society Arc Shikai Ichigo scales to Soul Society Arc Toshiro who lets say scales to the 2.5 Megatons end of the new calc. And we also assume the multipliers are 10x rather than 5x. So Base Grimmjow would be 12.1 Gigatons for being 10x weaker than Gran Rey Cero via multipliers from Resureccion. While Soul Society Shikai Ichigo is 2.5 Megatons, Bankai would be 25 Megatons and Hollowficarion would be 250 Megatons.

      >Shikai Ichigo would be 4.84M times weaker, Bankai would be 484K times weaker and Hollowfication would be 48.4K times weaker than Base Grimmjow which makes no sense as we saw that Hollowfied Bankai Ichigo can impress and injure Base Grimmjow. And this was assuming the multiplier was 10x even though the accepted end is 5x which means the gap in actuality is even bigger.

      Well first, Soul Society Arc Ichigo's power changes through the arc. He goes from struggling to fight Kenpachi, stalemating Kenpachi, struggling with Byakuya, stalemating Shikai Byakuya and taking hits from Bankai Byakuya.

      He only gets stronger over time.

      Base Grimmjow was far above what Beginning of Arrancar Arc (thus End of Soul Society Arc) Shikai and Bankai could physically do. His Getsuga was able to hurt him, but nothing physical.

      Ichigo should not be scaling from Toshiro ever as they never interact and Ichigo lacks actual feats in the Soul Society Arc. He should be backscaling from Grimmjow if anything since we have better consistent feats in the Arrancar Arc.

      >Toshiro's cloud feat was done while he was pissed at Gin that pretty much shows he is likely going serious right off the bat so we do have a feat to scale Soul Society Arc characters to.

      Toshiro's cloud manipulation is a basic ability of his Shikai and Bankai. It's not a display of his strength, but a basic side ability of his Shikai and Bankai. We see him then actually fight Gin and restrain him.

      >Fullbring Shikai Ichigo who is much much stronger than his Arrancar Arc self only having a 6-C feat makes High 6-C Arrancar Arc characters seem like even more of an outlier.

      That doesn't make it an outlier, otherwise we would have to downgrade a lot of characters across the wiki.

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo literally only appears for about 15 chapters in the entire series of Bleach.

      It's feats are mainly scaling from Ginjo (who had Ichigo's powers) and figthing Quilge. 

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote:

      You'd probably have to get it re-evaluated due to kne calc member accepting it and one not.

      not

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    • USklaverei wrote:

      Wrath Of Itachi wrote:

      You'd probably have to get it re-evaluated due to kne calc member accepting it and one not.

      not

      You'd have to get another member to accept it if its 1 to 1.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote:

      You'd have to get another member to accept it if its 1 to 1.

      But nobody rejected it man, he was ACCEPTED, can't read?

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    • He accepted the low end of the calc, but was still unsure of it. Yet the calc page has the high end as accepted, which is wrong.

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    • @IMade That’s in response to you saying there’s no feat in the Soul Society Arc.

      That’s why I said we should wait cause right now we still need to wait for more calcs to be made and revised before deciding what is more consistent in a separate thread.

      Yeah I messed up there my knowledge of the Luppi fight is a bit rusty. Misremembered Luppi briefly beating Bankai Toshiro before getting surprise attacked.

      That page clearly states he’s using White’s power which means he’s partially in a hollow field state.

      It was still strong enough that Grimmjow was impressed.

      I’m just saying based on the calcs the gap is way too big.

      We literally have every single captain scaling to Soul Society Arc Toshiro and now you’re saying Ichigo should never scale even though he scales to Byakuya and Kenpachi in the Soul Society Arc? Although having Ichigo and the stronger Soul Society Arc captains backscale from Arrancar Arc Base Grimmjow rather than scale from Toshiro does fix the scaling.

      After looking at the fight again it does seem like the Storm was just a side effect. But You do realize that Gin scales above Post-2nd Resurrection Bankai Ichigo right he was clearly just playing around with Toshiro as even Rangiku can block his attack.

      It would’ve been if there was only one High 6-C calc. But now that you brought up the 4-1 Resurrección there is a possibility that it isn’t an outlier.

      Fullbring Shikai Ichigo is stronger than Fullbring Ichigo who is comparable to Pre-Power Absorption Base Ginjo who is comparable to Tsukishima who can fight Post-Timeskip Bankai Byakuya who is stronger Arrancar Arc Bankai Byakuya who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form alongside Kenpachi. So yeah he has a really long scaling chain that puts him far above his Arrancar Arc self. So anyways like I said let’s just put this off until all the calcs have been made or remade after that we’ll have this discussion again on a separate thread.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote:
      He accepted the low end of the calc, but was still unsure of it. Yet the calc page has the high end as accepted, which is wrong.

      This really doesn't matter if you read his argument, he also choose to no longer engage with us in the discussion which is a sign of concession. He has an issue with parallel worlds he can take it up in a thread to change the standards.

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    • He probably doesnt know it's still an on going thing. I can ask him again to comment and see if his opinion has changed or not.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote:
      He probably doesnt know it's still an on going thing. I can ask him again to comment and see if his opinion has changed or not.

      We did and if you check his last comment he said his opinion didn't change, but if you want sure.

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    • I did look at it, but I'm not sure he is aware its accepted and going to be used.

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    • >That’s in response to you saying there’s no feat in the Soul Society Arc.

      I didn't say that, I even laid out the very few feats of the arc.

      >That’s why I said we should wait cause right now we still need to wait for more calcs to be made and revised before deciding what is more consistent in a separate thread.

      But we already have consistency right now with what is rolled out so far.

      >That page clearly states he’s using White’s power which means he’s partially in a hollow field state.

      He's using Zangetsu's move, the Black Getsuga Tensho, not Zangetsu's power.

      >It was still strong enough that Grimmjow was impressed.

      It's not enough to scale, unless we actually start treating Ichigo's physicals as separate from his Getsuga which I wouldn't be opposed to since his Getsuga do hit harder as demonstrated against Grimmjow.

      >I’m just saying based on the calcs the gap is way too big.

      Not really since we have Captains that backscale from the later arc that clear the gap.

      Many Captains have the same rating in SS to Arrancar Arc.

      >We literally have every single captain scaling to Soul Society Arc Toshiro and now you’re saying Ichigo should never scale even though he scales to Byakuya and Kenpachi in the Soul Society Arc? Although having Ichigo and the stronger Soul Society Arc captains backscale from Arrancar Arc Base Grimmjow rather than scale from Toshiro does fix the scaling.

      I address this in the one above.

      >After looking at the fight again it does seem like the Storm was just a side effect. But You do realize that Gin scales above Post-2nd Resurrection Bankai Ichigo right he was clearly just playing around with Toshiro as even Rangiku can block his attack.

      I understand that.

      >Fullbring Shikai Ichigo is stronger than Fullbring Ichigo who is comparable to Pre-Power Absorption Base Ginjo who is comparable to Tsukishima who can fight Post-Timeskip Bankai Byakuya who is stronger Arrancar Arc Bankai Byakuya who defeated Yammy the strongest Espada in his strongest form alongside Kenpachi. So yeah he has a really long scaling chain that puts him far above his Arrancar Arc self. So anyways like I said let’s just put this off until all the calcs have been made or remade after that we’ll have this discussion again on a separate thread.

      Yeah, Fullbring Shikai Ichigo is mainly scaling and not actual calcable feats. However, his scaling is completely consistent to being above his Pre-Timeskip version, so there is definitely no outlier for him.

      But I am willing to wait, I think with the few calcs left we will see even more consistency.

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    • What other calcs need to be completed in order for the revisions to start?

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    • It's worth noting that, till Ichigo developed his Mask, Zangetsu was influencing him and his power fluctuated from being quite weak, to being stronger than Ulq's . So, considering that we clearly see Ichigo starting to be influenced by Zangetsu in the fight with Grimmjow , IMO it's quite hard to specifically say that that's Ichigo's normal power, and not some boosted state he was in, if that make sense.

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    • Ovy brings an amazing point even I forgot, that actually helps a lot clear up any issue discussed with the scaling in that early instance.

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    • So, how would this change things?

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    • Bump.

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    • Wrath Of Itachi wrote: So, how would this change things?

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    • Would this make Vollstandig Candice 5B ?

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    • Didn’t Candice get stomped by Ichigo? How would she scale?

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    • She clashed with him and survived a few hits.

      And it was a question.

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    • From a very casual Ichigo who even shouted at her to dodge his attack which means he didn't want to hurt her seriously in the first place

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    • LordWhis wrote:
      Would this make Vollstandig Candice 5B ?

      Not even close.

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    • Bump.

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    • Anyone else have anything else to say?

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    • I'm not sure? Maybe?

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    • A FANDOM user
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