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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    15:58, January 2, 2020

    I've been mulling this over for a while and I realize that Superman One Mil/Kal Kent's stats don't make a lot of sense. This will be broken up into several parts as this is going to be some serious changes. 

    Part 1: Kal Kent's (Superman One Million) Feat

    You see, his Tiering comes from his feat of slowing a galaxy and later, with help, moving it. Cool, but there's a problem: he did this with Force Vision, basically Telekinesis channeled through his eyes. As such, we can't really apply this to his physical capabilities. He's 4-A with Force Vision but his normal AP, Durability, and Striking Strength cannot scale as he's never done anything on that level except with Force Vision. 

    Based on this, I propose the following changes: 

    - - Superman One Million's AP, Durability and Striking Strength should be changed to Unknown. Unless he's go more quantifiable feats that I'm simply unaware of.

    - -It should also be specified, howerer, that he is Multi-Solar System level with his Force Vision.

    - -In addition, his Lifting Strength should be At least Multi-Stellar with Force Vision. 

    Part 2: Superman Prime One Million 

    If the changes in Part 1 are approved, we will have to change Superman Prime as well due to the fact that we currently scale him using Kal Kent. What this means, at this point, I'm not sure. But I'm willing and open to discussion on the matter. 

    Part 3: All-Star Superman One Million 

    Just like Supes Prime, Kal Kent appeared in All-Star Superman and I propse that he get a key for that depiction of him. Honestly, it wouldn't be that hard and he'd proper scaling and stats.

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    • What tier would Kal Kent be on All-Star?

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      What tier would Kal Kent be on All-Star?

      He'd probably be At least Low 5-B. He's stronger than All-Star Superman but wouldn't be as strong as Superman Prime. Think of him as kind of like a midway point.

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    • I am uncertain about this. It is probably best if you ask Matthew to comment here.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I am uncertain about this. It is probably best if you ask Matthew to comment here.

      Ok. I've contacted him. Now we wait.

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    • Okay.

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    • I'm 100% sure that All-Star Superman One Million and normal One Million are the same.

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    • Well, they are both written by Grant Morrison, so they were likely intended to be, but I do not think that All-Star Superman fits into current continuity.

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    • Considering DC 1,000,000 is its own universe?

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    • It is? I thought that it was an official future.

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    • Ok, here's the thing about Post-Crisis Kal Kent being the same one in All-Star. It kind of doesn't make sense. 

      Because that would mean that Kal went back in time twice and somehow met two different Supermen: Post-Crisis and All-Star. Not too mention that if we say that the Kal Kent in All-Star is the exact same one in Post-Crisis that would mean the Superman Prime who appeared in All-Star is the same as the one who appeared in Post-Crisis. That's a contradiction. 

      Going further, there are two different people who are said be the next person to officially become Superman after Clark. For Post-Crisis, it's Superman Secundus and in All-Star, it's Superman 2. 

      These two can't be the same being either as their origins are different. For Secundus, he's simply a descendant of the original Superman who was given the title after Superman left to explore space after he outlived so many of his friends and family. Superman 2 is the son of Lois and Superman after Superman left all the information needed to cross human and Kryptonian genes to Leo Quintum right before his death. 

      All the evidence points to All-Star and Post-Crisis being entirely seperate continuities. 

      In addition, what are we thinking about Kal Kent's telekinesis feat and his stats?

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    • I think that C2 makes sense in his last post.

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    • However, if he has Multi-Solar System level force vision, it seems likely that he is regularly fighting foes that can withstand it, and can in turn withstand their attacks, as is usual for superhero characters. It doesn't seem likely to be a separately tiered ability.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      It is? I thought that it was an official future.

      It was a future. But Future Timelines turn out to be parallel universes all the time.

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    • Okay. So what do you think that we should do here?

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    • Okay, I've got some time here.

      Antvasima wrote:
      However, if he has Multi-Solar System level force vision, it seems likely that he is regularly fighting foes that can withstand it, and can in turn withstand their attacks, as is usual for superhero characters. It doesn't seem likely to be a separately tiered ability.

      But who has he fought to warrant that? IIRC, Kal spent most of his appearance in weakened state and fighting people that we can't really quantify. Even then, he was completely superior to almost everyone he fought and the only issues he suffered was slowing losing his powers. The only other massive feat the Kal's done is helping contain Solaris going supernova. But that's a joint feat that he shares with Kyle Rayner.

      In addition, even if we kept his 4-A tier for his AP, it still doesn't translate into his other physicals.

      X-Man is character all about Telekinesis but he also purposely applies his Telekinesis to his physical to amp himself. Without that amp, he's still an Unknown in certain areas, having different stats without it and we note all of that.

      Moon Presence is another character who has a different stat in Lifting Strength due his Telekinesis while his other physical stats comes from scaling and battle feats.

      Cable (Marvel Comics) is another TK user but he also has feats that physically put him on the 4-B level. His entire fight with Silver Surfer shows this.

      Telekinesis is a power that we treat a separate from a character's other physicals and note if they use it to enhance other stats. Kal Kent has shown great feats of TK but he needs more justification than an assumption to say that all his physicals scale to that.

      Simply put, if he has more feats, those must be added to his profile. If he really doesn't his profile must shifted accordingly. Either way, his profile needs to more specific.

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    • Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

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    • So, what are we doing with all this? Should we get more eyes on this? I mean, this can have ramifications not only for Kal Kent but Superman Prime.

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    • You can ask some of the following members to comment here:

      Kepekley23, Zensum, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Sandman31, SuperAPM, Zark2099, ClassicNESfan, Firestorm808.

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    • You could say "At least Solar System level, Multi-Solar System level with Force Vision."

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    • That might work, yes.

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    • Firestorm808's suggestion makes sense, unless there are any better feats available

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    • So, what statistics should we scale Superman Prime (One Million) to?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      So, what statistics should we scale Superman Prime (One Million) to?

      Can still scale him to Kal, it's just that because Kal's stats would changing so would Superman Prime's. It could be something like: 

      Kal Kent: At least Solar System level (As a highly evolved Kryptonian granted extra powers by his lineage and Superman Prime, he should be superior to modern day Kryptonians), Multi-Solar System level with Force Vision (Slowed and helped push a galaxy) 

      Superman Prime: At least Solar System level, likely higher (Should be vastly superior to his past self and Kal Kent. His powers are further supplemented with a Green Lanter Ring.)

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    • I agree with the proposed changes as well.

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    • Well, the problem is that Superman Prime has not demonstrated force vision.

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    • His AP can say that he scales to have it but never used it, is that good?

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    • C2 has adjusted his suggestion in what seems to be an acceptable manner.

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    • Overall this all sounds reasonable, but I would suggest adding "likely higher" to SPOM's tiering.

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    • That is fine, yes.

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    • Ok, so really only last bit of business is the All-Star Key for Superman One Mil/Kal Kent. 

      To be frank, I'm not that hung up it. I just made the propsal because we have such a Key for Prime One Mil, who was there about a page. Kal was there for almost all of an issue and actually had a brief tussel with All-Star Superman.

      Just to be clear, I made the proposal for consistency's sake. If we can say that Superman Prime One Million derserves a key for that brief appearence, shouldn't Kal get one for actually being a major part of that entire issue? If the answer's no, then what's the point of having one for Superman Prime One Million?

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    • That is a good point. I suppose that it can probably be removed then.

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    • Just so we're clear: 

      1. For Kal Kent, I'll just be adjusting his physical stats to "At least Solar System level" while being 4-A with Force Vision with apporiate justifications as outlined here.

      2. For Prime, same thing minus the Force Vision while removing his All-Star Key and Tabber. 

      If we're all good, I can make the changes anytime. I just need Superman Prime One Million unlocked.

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    • I will unlock the pages. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • Ok, I'm done. I believe that I've got everything. Profiles can be locked and this thread can be closed.

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    • Okay.

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