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  • AKA, how to edit Link in a way to keep him in the wiki.

    Basically, we’ll edit it as to make it follow the same structure as pages like Mario or Kirby. First off, we divide his abilities into keys, just like this thread (this is the page) already tried to do. I was initially against it as, well, it was “Composite” Link, but now that we’re “decomposing” Link, this is necessary, as well as separating “Standard Equipment” (which is basically just the normal Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage, both of which already have a page so easy stuff) from his “Optional Equipment”.

    Secondly, these keys would be tiered separately. I’m unsure about the “innate abilities” (I’m guessing “At least 6-C, likely 5-A” is fine, considering the first one is fodder level and 5-A is Hero’s Shade level, who has effectively no empowering equipment), but Standard Equipment would be “At least 5-A, likely High 4-C” (the same tier as the Master Sword and ToC), Optional equipment is 3-A for the Golden Master Sword and lastly The Triforce key is 3-A because Triforce. Again, pretty easy stuff.

    Obviously the division for the equipment must also be made into the equipment section.

    Lastly, changing “Link (Composite)” into just “Link” or “Link (Spirit of the Hero)”. I honestly prefer the first one because it’s less confusing for those who aren’t a fan of the series, even if the second one is technically more appropriate given that what this is, at the end, is effectively making a page for “The Spirit of the Hero” more than “decomposing” Link. It wouldn’t count as a composite anyway since he’s an actual character of the verse, and assuming otherwise is simply contradicting the lore. Nintendo itself considers Link a single guy as shown on the official website or Hyrule Encyclopedia, and while it’s hard to explain with words, there’s a reason why every single wiki with Link has a single page for him. Obviously this also means we would need to nuke the different pages for the canon Link, as he’s effectively always the same guy.

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    • Yeah, this works.  I like Spirit of the Hero honestly, but that's just my opinion. Is this actually going to be getting RID of any of his equips or anything on his page? Cause I can totally help out with making a page for it , as I'm already in the middle of a big Zelda revision for another site..

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    • I think just naming him "Link" works as well. This looks fine.

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    • It might be better overall to just call him Link, though I don't mind either way. And the proposals in the OP looks good.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: It might be better overall to just call him Link, though I don't mind either way. And the proposals in the OP looks good.

      I agree.

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    • Yeah if the other profiles are gonna get nuked for this then just Link works best as the name of the page.

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    • If we're doing this, I think we should separate his equipment into separate tabbers in the optional equipment section. Maybe by incarnation (NES Era, Hero of Legend, Etc.)

      On that note, we should really have images for his stuff.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      It might be better overall to just call him Link, though I don't mind either way. And the proposals in the OP looks good.

      At the very least it should be "Link (The Legend of Zelda)", as "Link" alone can likely be confused with other characters of the same name (Unless there aren't any in the first place, in which case just "Link" would be fine).

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    • Link from Monsters vs Aliens lmao

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    • Sounds like a pretty good idea. I think Bob makes a point, even if this Link is the most well known Link in fiction

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    • TBH, while we are at it, I still think Mario should have his page named something like "Mario (Mario Bros.)" or even "Super Mario", the same also should apply to Luigi, but that´s out of the topic.

      At this point it seems every current ("canon") Link page is going to be merged into a single profile, oh boy, this is going to turn into one of the top 10 longest pages on the wiki.

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    • Perhaps this could be an effective header for Link, if anything.

      Hmmm... I guess you have a point with Mario and Luigi. Even if it is THE Mario for people visiting this wiki, it would be consistent with other characters. Just my two cents, though.

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    • Its size won’t change much from what Composite Link is now.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:
      Its size won’t change much from what Composite Link is now.

      I'm working on the page already. It might be if we actually use images... which we really shood, the composite page is sorely lacking in them.

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ZephyrosOmega/sandbox

      Is this an acceptable layout for his new page? 

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    • Outside of your blog having weird categories (They aren't meant to even have them), the optional equipment tabbers should be merged into a single "family" of tabbers, and you probably should have a gallery at the bottom showing each canon Link incarnation. 

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Outside of your blog having weird categories (They aren't meant to even have them), the optional equipment tabbers should be merged into a single "family" of tabbers, and you probably should have a gallery at the bottom showing each canon Link incarnation. 

      It's a sandbox, not a blog. I used it for an attempted fate revision a while back.

      What do you mean by a "family" of tabbers?

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    • Basically, both being in the same tabber.

      You know tabbers can be actually stacked (Tabber in another tabber), right? Hence why I said it like that.

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    • yeah, i know they can stack. I'm just not quite sure what you mean. They're all grouped up already.

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    • Oh neat, BTW, some organization is still needed, but this is still in beta, then again

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    • In either case, I think the basics are set out. His powers and abilities section are complete in any case. Once things here are set we can begin the transition.

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    • What should we do for reoccuring equipment? Things like bombs, a bow and arrow, boomerang, and hookshot are all pretty famous for Link, and he's always represented with them in auxillary media like Smash,Soulcalibur, and Hyrule Warriors. Can that be treated as standard equipment?

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    • ...honestly not bad, dude

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    • Thanks!

      Unless you meant it at ZephyrosOmega for his blog

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    • we both are doing a good job

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    • I don't get this, to be honest.

      I can't see why the kwys Link would be divided into would not be the different games. It's the most logical cut-off point for him, both from tier and ability standpoint.

      I guess people really want a singular profile for Link for some reason, but it really seems like all the different game profiles already stand for what his keys should be.



      But, I mean, fine if you want to just delete all other profiles. Same difference I guess.

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    • Yeah seems pretty bizarre to me as well to delete all the other profiles rather then just axing this one...But they're effectively the same so you guys do you.

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    • I just read that last line. Nuh uh.

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    • You are not making a profile for a character with all that, and then making 19 profiles for the same character at different times in their lives.

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    • I pretty much have the same opinion as Ricsi and Pen.

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    • The profile you are currently making makes all other link profiles redudant....

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    • Hence why rereading that last line made me uncertain.

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    • So either we get this single link profile or we keep the multitude of others and simply axe this one. Which is honestly the version im In favor of, compiling link like this does nothing and serves no purpose. All it will do is lead to one massive messy profile with a bunch of keys/tabbers everywhere.

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    • Ok first of all, I've done too much work to have it axed like this. And no, i absolutely prefer the one link profile. Vs matches can just limit him to whatever equipment.

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    • Well then we delete all the others and replace it with this mess of tabbers and keys that serves no purpose since we already have profiles for the individual links.

      You can prefer it I don't, its effectually the same as axing the profile, functionally the only difference is we get one mega messy profile, rather then a bunch of individualized profiles.

      Im personally in favor of keeping the individuals but I wont argue it massively just pointing out that this a very bizarre course of action to take.

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    • >messy

      this is more concise than having a dozen other different profiles that nobody gives a damn about.

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    • Last time I check didn't the people on the link composite thread wanted to freaking axe all the other link profiles for absolutely no reason! hell they said the same thing as you but said that the other Link profiles served no purpose.

      What do they even want?

      We can all still change things and correct stuff as we go.

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    • Yeah no, that's horrible reason.

      The 19 profiles no doubt had a lot of effort put into them, are easier to look at, are more precise then the sandbox is right now (I don't even get why the keys are made like they are), and make one able to pick from the game they most liked.

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    • Disagree those profiles are concise, yours has tabbers overlapping because theirs to much there, further people will have to sort through that mess to pick out which link they're using, where individual profiles don't suffer these issues. T

      hey are clear on what that version of link can do, there's no searching through optional equipment keys to figure out which link your using. I fail to see the point in this mega profile.

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    • AshenCrow777 wrote:
      snip

      And they were ignored, this can't be. Composites aren't allowed and really should never have existed on the wiki.  We are getting rid of composite link regardless of anything else, this is just a very bizarre way to try and compile all links into a single profile because...Reasons?

      I really don't grasp the point of this course of action, its effectively the same thing just more messy.

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    • it's one click, it's not hard.

      If you're too lazy to click on the one game you want then that's your issue. 

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    • ZephyrosOmega wrote:
      it's one click, it's not hard.

      If you're too lazy to click on the one game you want then that's your issue. 

      Different profiles are one click too. Except here tabbers overlap.

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    • Ahem this^

      Or we can keep the profiles and just nuke this...Seems far easier and cleaner...

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    • Don't get me wrong, the character of Link is far from being as bad as something like the entirety of Godzilla to organize as in a single profile, and your solution is definitely an improvement. But this solution to me seems just "Composite Link but with a few other keys to justify its existence".

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    • I agree to just keep the other 19 profiles.

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    • Yeah, making all those other profiles does make it easier to keep track on what Link has and what the verse's scaling comes from.

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    • Do we even do anything like that for any other character?

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    • There's really no other case like Link, so that's totally up to debate.

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    • are we done with shitty takes on this thread now

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    • Yeah we delete composite link and keep the separate profiles we already have for him as that seems to be the majority opinion

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    • The pen or the sword wrote:
      Yeah we delete composite link and keep the separate profiles we already have for him as that seems to be the majority opinion

      >majority

      you mean the thing that you and one other person said, right

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    • I agree about this

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    • I mean, even for formatting purposes, the original 19 profiles function better, as this is what we do for otherwise massive profiles like Son Goku and Doctor Strange, where there is a significant passage of time between versions of characters which are equally valid to one another. There isn't a Son Goku or Doctor Strange, because said profile possess no reason to exist and neither do so canonically, same logic applies tbh.

      Also, I reckon the Mario profiles are supported by a floating continuity and there isn't exactly any official material to contradict Mario being the same character across the media otherwise. Link has official statements of being different people, so the idea of making a single Link profile is dubious anyhow.

      The concept of "Link is officially a single guy" is questionable at best, considering that A) It's really obviously there for marketing reasons on the website they refer to Link as a single guy and B) While yes, the Spirit of Hero does flow through all heroes, does it exist in the form as potrayed in the profiles? I reckon not.

      Also if we do bring this into practice, what would it's implications be exactly? That every fodder in TLoZ across the games hits 6-C?

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    • DDM seems to agree with multiple profiles, as does zark, siguard, risci, even cal became uneasy with the idea of deleting all the other profiles in favor of this...Thing

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    • Yeah, I prefer to keep the multiple profiles for Link as it's much easier to distinguish for scaling and all that. But as for the fodder enemies; I'd like to make some details clear. The really fodder enemies like Octorocs are probably like Tier 9 at best. But various mini-bosses are High 7-A scaling from Dodongo's and Iron Knuckles. And High 7-A comes from being able to regularly eat those High 7-A calculated bombs.

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    • And these are consistent High 7-A grenades across all games we're talking about?

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    • By lore, all of the Bombs are based on the same technology being the "Bomb Flower". They have calculations ranging from High 7-C to High 7-A from various games based on what Cal said on another thread; the High 7-A came from Phantom Hourglass. So High 7-A Bombs are consistent.

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    • Ehh... still seems bizarre though, oh well, the point still stands that even despite being "a singular character" as the OP purports, it would still be removed as Link is too varied a character to list in a single profile, especially given far more suitable alternatives exist

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    • I do agree that there isn't much hope for the Composite profile staying.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: I mean, even for formatting purposes, the original 19 profiles function better, as this is what we do for otherwise massive profiles like Son Goku and Doctor Strange, where there is a significant passage of time between versions of characters which are equally valid to one another. There isn't a Son Goku or Doctor Strange, because said profile possess no reason to exist and neither do so canonically, same logic applies tbh.

      Also, I reckon the Mario profiles are supported by a floating continuity and there isn't exactly any official material to contradict Mario being the same character across the media otherwise. Link has official statements of being different people, so the idea of making a single Link profile is dubious anyhow.

      The concept of "Link is officially a single guy" is questionable at best, considering that A) It's really obviously there for marketing reasons on the website they refer to Link as a single guy and B) While yes, the Spirit of Hero does flow through all heroes, does it exist in the form as potrayed in the profiles? I reckon not.

      Also if we do bring this into practice, what would it's implications be exactly? That every fodder in TLoZ across the games hits 6-C?

      I'm not fully sure but Doctor Strange, but the case with Goku is very simple: Too many keys. Most profiles already has 5-6 keys, uniting all of them would create a page with so many keys it becomes incomprehensible. In this case, Link would only have 4 keys (Innate abilities, standard equipment, optional equipment and Triforce), so it would be far from messy. The only part you could argue is messy could be the equipment segment, but if instead of separating equipment into different games, we just list his equipment and say from which games they're from (as a lot of equipment appears through multiple games), it won't be anywhere as long as that of other big pages.

      I don't get the point about floating continuity, but, as I already said above, in the OP, I've already explained why Link should have a singular page.

      Find me a single example of "It's really obviously there for marketing reasons on the website they refer to (Random character) as a single guy". Also because, regardless of the reason they're doing it, they're still considering Link a singular person. We never consider author intent in the wiki. "While yes, the Spirit of Hero does flow through all heroes, does it exist in the form as potrayed in the profiles?" Does any Pokémon have every move they can learn as once? Or, since I can see why people could say that Pokémons are a different scenario, does any video game character get everything they have the possibility to get, regardless of what they can actually get? As an indexing site, we say everything a character can get in a videogame, even if some abilities exclude some other abilities.

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    • The pen or the sword wrote: DDM seems to agree with multiple profiles, as does zark, siguard, risci, even cal became uneasy with the idea of deleting all the other profiles in favor of this...Thing

      Meanwhile, DragonMaster, Zephyros, Lgamer, Dust, Bobsican, Tarta, I'm Blue and AshenCrow agree

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    • I didn't actually agree, I just said that if we're going to nuke the other profiles then just Link would be a better name for the profile rather than Spirit of the Hero. I'm at best neutral.

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    • Except each game would have a reasonable argument for giving it a key of it's own, since the abilities, equipment, etc. would all be very clearly outlined in them.

      So it's still nuking every single profile except that one with four keys. I just don't see what's the point of doing that.

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    • Honestly, All this mess is out of my comprehension, why separate the current Composite Profile in 19 profile is a problem when every profile with a similar case do this?

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    • The Causality wrote:
      Honestly, All this mess is out of my comprehension, why separate the current Composite Profile in 19 profile is a problem when every profile with a similar case do this?

      What do you mean "this"? Being reincarnated with over and over, going through different powersets, is more than enough reason to get different keys for each reincarnation.

      Mario gets a single profile because beyond his upgrades, every single mario is the same person, with the same body and memories and mind.

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    • >Different powersets

      90% of a Link's abilities are repeated in multiple games. Every game only adds 2 or 3 new abilities that didn't exist in other games (Except ALTTP and MM, which is where a good chunk of Link's hax comes from).

      Keeping the different games separated means having 19 profiles with mostly the same stuff. THAT's redundant, not having a singular, more precise page that doesn't repeat everything 10 times.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote: Mario gets a single profile because beyond his upgrades, every single mario is the same person, with the same body and memories and mind.

      Is this the case for link?

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    • Like I said before, I don't particularly care.

      Nuke all but this one or don't make this one. That's it. Feels uneeded to put them in one profile to me, but I don't care about the games enough to argue for it.

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    • The Causality wrote:

      Ricsi-viragosi wrote: Mario gets a single profile because beyond his upgrades, every single mario is the same person, with the same body and memories and mind.

      Is this the case for link?

      "Nintendo itself considers Link a single guy as shown on the official website or Hyrule Encyclopedia, and while it’s hard to explain with words, there’s a reason why every single wiki with Link has a single page for him."

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    • The Causality wrote:

      Is this the case for link?

      Not the same body and memmories, tough mentality is mostly the same.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:

      "Nintendo itself considers Link a single guy as shown on the official website or Hyrule Encyclopedia, and while it’s hard to explain with words, there’s a reason why every single wiki with Link has a single page for him."

      Again, this was countered so many times. 

      They are all Link, but their body and mind changed immensly. Little Treasure is also Meng Hao, I think you can see the differences between them regardless.

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    • Yet they're considered two different characters, even by their own wiki. Link is considered the same character. That's the main difference.

      Also, "Body and Mind"? All Links look the same (with the only way to distinguish them being the overall artstyle adopted be the entire game) and they all have the same personality (Courageous boy who doesn't like to speak much and is more than willing to help people and defeat evil)

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    • Why are we using other wikis as evidence? May as well consider GT Goku and Super Goku the same since the Dragon Ball Wiki has them sharing a page.

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    • Dust Collector wrote: Why are we using other wikis as evidence? May as well consider GT Goku and Super Goku the same since the Dragon Ball Wiki has them sharing a page.

      I mean, the reason we have different Goku pages is because a single one would be a mess of keys.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:

      I mean, the reason we have different Goku pages is because a single one would be a mess of keys.

      What? Hell no, Toei; GT; Manga and canon are all veeeery different things.

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    • I agree with Risci this is just composite Link reworded.

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    • Ah, sorry, I didn't know that. I'm not much of an expert of DragonBall.

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    • Nice job missing my point, it was to address the whole thing about all Links are the same character thing which you used wikis to help prove, that's like saying that DBGT Goku and Super Goku are the same character and GT is the official continuation to Super because the wiki has both GT and Super Goku sharing the same page. If you're trying to prove they're the same character don't use wikis.

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    • Rocker1189 wrote:
      I agree with Risci this is just composite Link reworded.

      Not what I'm saying, exactly...

      This would be fine according to our rules as far as I am awere, assuming that the most recent reincarnation has all the physical capabilities of previous links.

      It would be more about making profiles that show what he resonably could achieve with equipment at once. Putting them into one profile would let people just throw any item he can obtain in games in all at once, despite their mechanics and even the ability to find them not being a constant.

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    • Dust Collector wrote: Nice job missing my point, it was to address the whole thing about all Links are the same character thing which you used wikis to help prove, that's like saying that DBGT Goku and Super Goku are the same character and GT is the official continuation to Super because the wiki has both GT and Super Goku sharing the same page.

      Fine, the wiki thing was more of a supporting thing anyway. It was to show how Link is perceived as a singular person by the fans themselves, not just by Nintendo.

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    • Fan opinions don't exactly matter, else Sans would still have soul poison proportional to how violent you are.

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    • I am going to be honest that sounds like a composite to me. I said it in the original thread and would say it again. I don't agree with Mario either, and as for Kirby I don't know nearly enough to say. But I think that mario is essentially a composite for the same reasons that I think this link Is essentially a composite.

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    • I know they don't really matter, but support is support. It was just to support what Nintendo itself said about Link.

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    • Mario shares his physical abilities all throughout the games, it's the powerups he doesn't. But at least he can't use most power ups at once, except the star upgrade.

      But still, not sure if we should allow optional equipment when the equipment can't all be gotten at once.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:
      I know they don't really matter, but support is support. It was just to support what Nintendo itself said about Link.

      Which is not proof. Because it was explained quiet a few times why all reincarnation of Link being Link doesn't mean that they all are the same thing in power, memory, equipment, magic, etc.

      I know for a fact that they don't all share memory, nor equipment (optional or not).

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    • This profile might be a good idea.

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    • Can you explain why this is somehow better then the profiles we already have for link? In the end   its functionally the same as just having those individual profiles. While Im still in favor of simply nuking this and would argue it's far easier to keep track of scaling and equipment with individual profiles Im willing to accept the messy single profile. I just really don't understand the purpose of pushing link to a single profile and nuking all the individual ones we already have.

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    • I would personally prefer to keep all of the Link profiles/incarnations of the same character.

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    • If Link gets merged into a single profile, the Links category likely should be removed as it would no longer hold an use the top tabbers for non canon Links already hold.

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    • I agree with merging all profiles into a single "Link (The Legend of Zelda)" profile. They're canonically the same character, and should be treated as such. Having 19 different pages for minor incarnations is extremely messy.

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    • Well, they are different reincarnations with different memories and power levels. It would mess up the scaling to other characters if we assume that they are all equal.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, they are different reincarnations with different memories and power levels. It would mess up the scaling to other characters if we assume that they are all equal.

      THey literally are tho, all of them scale to the same feats

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    • Yeah, all Link profiles scale to the same things, and the different abilities are all because of Optional Equipment. It'll be a lot easier to have it all on a single page and add those Optional Equipment abilities as a different tabber/key.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      It would mess up the scaling to other characters if we assume that they are all equal.

      They ARE equal tho, we rate them on the very same tiers. Just check their profiles and you'll see most of them are identical, with the ones that are different being because of Optional Equipment.

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    • Okay then. Lots of links (no pun intended) to all of the old profiles would have to be updated though.

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    • So long the resulting Link profile has the powers separated for each era sort of like Sora it should be fine, as we all know they don't share every single power and resistance at once.

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    • Exactly, all powers that come from Optional Equipment and specific games should be given separated tabbers/keys, since Link DOESN'T have all his powers at once.

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    • Just a word of advice, even different Links have different forms. Like the Ocarina of Time/Majora's Mask version has OoT YL at High 7-A, MM Young Link and mask forms High 6-C, Adult Link at least 5-A, possibly High 4-C, and FDL being 3-A all being squeezed into a single key is super messy. There's also Zelda one having tiers Zelda 1 and 2; It's at least 5-A, possibly High 4-C, for both and then Complete Triforce is 3-A. There's also BotW's 5-A rating, multiple High 6-A versions of Link, Skyward Sword's multiple keys ranging from 6-A to High 6-A, to At least High 4-C possibly 4-A with True Master Sword, and 3-A with complete Triforce. There's also A Link to the Past having a key where he's 3-A even without Triforce, though gets downgraded to High 6-A in Link's Awakening. Plenty of High 6-A versions to squeeze.

      I strongly prefer keeping all the profiles as there's far too much to squeeze in and clutter Link's profile.

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    • You're making that sound way harder to parse than it actually is. It's actually pretty easy to separate the keys out, and there are characters with far more keys in their profiles than even what you're suggesting.

      High 7-A can be deleted or left in there as a low-end as it's literally for the power of a single one of Link's weapons. Young Link gets High 6-C. That's easy.

      Basic Adult Link is High 6-A for obvious reasons. the normal 6-A keys can be scrapped as they're essentially pointless, and Skyward Sword link is the only one to use the 6-A sword. It's been the Master Sword in literally every game since, as SS was a prequel set thousands of years before the other games.

      5-A BOTW Link had the Master Sword, as did every single one of his 5-A incarnations. Master Sword is standard equipment along with the Triforce of Courage, which is also 5-A/High 4-C. "Standard Equipment" link can get "At least 5-A, likely High 4-C. 4-A when wielding the True Master Sword", or the True MS can be given a separate key. it's not an issue.

      Link's strongest items (Golden Master Sword and Fierce Deity Mask) are both 3-A, and can get a "Strongest equipment", "With the Golden Sword or Fierce Deity Mask", or "WIth his Strongest Items" Key.

      Obviously the Complete Triforce is a 3-A key.

      So the final keys would be:

      High 6-C | High 6-A | At least 5-A, likely High 4-C. possibly 4-A with the True Master Sword | 3-A | 3-A

      Key: Young | Adult | With Standard Equipment | Strongest Equipment | Complete Triforce

      or alternatively:

      High 6-C | High 6-A | At least 5-A, likely High 4-C | At least High 4-C, possibly 4-A | 3-A | 3-A

      Key: Young Adult | WIth the Master Sword | With the True Master Sword | With the Golden Master Sword | With the Complete Triforce

      Bam. All of Link's keys neatly separated into 5/6, depending on your preference.

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    • Is he capable of actually obtaining said "strongest items" all at once at any point?

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    • At the end of the day, there are only 4 tiers: High 6-A for normal Link, 5-A likely High 4-C for those with MS and ToC, 3-A for Optional equipment. High 7-A is literally Link when he was 10 and fodder level.

      There are technically BOTW Link who’s only 5-A and SS!Link who’s High 4-C, but no one scales from them anyway, and they’re just two out of nineteen. It’s just not worth it.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      Is he capable of actually obtaining said "strongest items" all at once at any point?

      What even is the point you're trying to make here? That doesn't invalidate anything.

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    • ZephyrosOmega wrote: What even is the point you're trying to make here? That doesn't invalidate anything.

      What I am pointing out is that you can't make one key with items or abilities he can't have at once.

      If you make a single Link profile, unless you make a key for each game, he will need to be at most divided into keys such as "Young | adult | with the triforce".

      However, that also means he only gets the equipment he can always have, or what his newest reincarnation can have.

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    • What you're suggesting is just bringing back Composite Link, which not only defeats the entire purpose of this thread, but completely ignores everything posted in the above thread. Like, the solution you're proposing is to just... make the page as barebones as possible and willingly leave out equipment.

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    • Phantom Hour Glass and Spirit Tracks adult Links Young Links, but they're High 6-A scaling from Base Ganondorf without Triforce of Power. High 7-A is what characters such as Gohma, King Dodongo, and Barinade are; we don't know if they're quite as strong as the 4 Temple bosses in Majora's Mask. And Young Link is obviously much stronger than he was in Ocarina due to potential Gilded Sword, Great Fairy Sword, and being able to carry the Hylian Shield along side the Kokiri Sword. So I don't think we should get rid of that. The various Four Swords Links are also High 6-A.

      The At least 5-A, possibly High 4-C applies to Link having the Master Sword and the Triforce of Courage, having only one makes him High 6-A without other feats. Though, Majora's Mask Link also has Triforce of Courage, which OoT Link did not before first touching the Master Sword which is another reason for High 7-A to stay. Also, Minish Cap Link is also included with the At least 5-A, possibly High 4-C key.

      Plus, I think the way Link is handled right now is much easier to handle scaling and make VS threads for. And I know Samus Aran has he profile similar to what's being proposed here, but even hers is often said to be "Cluttered".

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    • No, I am saying that you either make a profile with differing keys for each major games, or you drop any equipment his most recent iteration can't obtain in any feasible way.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      No, I am saying that you either make a profile with differing keys for each major games, or you drop any equipment his most recent iteration can't obtain in any feasible way.

      SO either not have this page, or make this page barebones to the point where there's no point in having it.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      snip

      Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks are technically toon link, not child link. If you want them to have a separate key, that can be done.

      Four Sword can probably be placed in the "standard" key with the Master Sword as it's Link's main weapon in the four swords saga. Once again, Master Sword + Triforce can be separated.

      If we're going this route, I'd support separating Young and Toon link from the "main" link as they're so different in comparison, and are represented as such in smash.

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    • No, that is not what I said. You can just make a single page and just leave versions of Link that have nothing special going for them, but even then the optional equipment for each key would be pretty messy.

      But if you make one profile, you can't put an item he can't get as optional because he got it a few reincarnation before. And you do have to make the page about Link at his current point.

      He is not a species of animal that you can just list the common abilities of like a dog or cattle, he is a singular person, so a profile for him has to have his latest appearance detailed, on it's own or as a key.

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    • "You can't put an item he only has sometimes as optional equipment, and you can only make a page about current link"

      wut

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    • TriforcePower1
      TriforcePower1 removed this reply because:
      19:20, January 7, 2020
      This reply has been removed
    • That is not what I said.

      A character profile, with some rare exceptions, has to show the most recent version of the same character. So, you can't make a profile for episode 1 Naruto and just leave off at that permanently. You can say you'll update it later, but you will need to update it with the newer version.

      Something he physically cannot obtain in the point in time his profile describes can' t be added as equipment of any kind. If he can go and take it any time, sure, but if he only had it literal lifetimes ago and can't obtain it anymore, then not really.

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    • well boys i guess the composite link profile is literally just going to be breath of the wild link lmao

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    • I don't mind this going through but I can't imagine it will be staying for long with the confusion it will bring. I would keep the seperate profiles backed up just in case.

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    • Also

      "with some rare exceptions"

      Hi, we're talking about Link from the Legend of Zelda whose entire thing is having a shitton of equipment he swaps out all the time ​​​

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    • TBH at this point i really don't care what happens as the only alternatives to the OP so far are pretty much entirely based on not wanting to put in the effort to look at a tab in the equipment to check link's equipment so i'm just gonna let triforce and cal handle it

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    • Ricsi, you’re trying to use standards that exist effectively only for anime/manga and apply them to videogame characters

      Crash Bandicoot (Character), Spyro and Sonic are good, non-Nintendo examples of this. In these cases, we separate basing ourselves from their forms, not games.

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    • No, the rare exceptions are where the most recent version of the character is not liable to make a profile for, such as an ending time-skip version of a protagonist that is shown for 5 seconds.

      Link is nothing special. His equipment varies a lot. That doesn't matter, because items he physically can't obtain won't be given to him just because he held them in another life.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote: Ricsi, you’re trying to use standards that exist effectively only for anime/manga and apply them to videogame characters

      Crash Bandicoot (Character), Spyro and Sonic are good, non-Nintendo examples of this. In these cases, we separate basing ourselves from their forms, not games.

      And that still doesn't mean you can give them a c9mbination equipments that they can't have.

      None of those exemple really relies on items much at all, so I don't see how they affects this. Link can't have all his items he ever held in one key, that's impossible to change.

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    • >Link is nothing special

      The simple fact that this thread even exists contradicts this.

      Everything else you said didn’t stop any of the profiles above from being separated into forms instead of games.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:

      And yet Crash has everything in a single key. And yet Spyro has everything in his last key.

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    • TriforcePower1 wrote:

      It really doesn't. A thread can be easily made, that doesn't make him special.

      And many wrongs don't do a right. Every composite was axed for the same reason they couldn't keep it.


      But by all means, I'll make a revision for games in general if throwing any item they ever had at them at once is done without them being able to obtain those items in-verse at once.

      But honestly, can't they? Is Spyro unable to go get those items for any non-gameechanic reason? Is there a reason while sonic can't just go collect them again if he needs them? Is there a reason why Crash can't get those items himself?

      If there are, by all means, I'll make revisions for them, too.

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    • It’s not “many wrong make a right”. It’s just how we’ve always treated Game Characters (and iirc also comic ones).

      If anything, I should be the one making a thread for why almost exclusively anime and mangas differentiate between volumes, but I know that’s generally because the characters grow stronger and we can clearly see them through different arcs. That doesn’t really happen most of the cases in videogames, hence why we don’t separate them based on timeline but forms, which is simply easier and more concise. Just like a Link with 4 keys is more concise and canonically correct than having 19 profiles with almost the same stuff and treating them as different people.

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    • That is not a justifications, that's simply appealing to tradition. You give a set of equipment to a character they can't have at once, which is not something that should be allowed.

      You think it's more correct, but I definitly disagree. Each game has a journey for link, showing how he gains his abilities and items. Those are perfectly reasonable places to divide keys in-between of.

      On the other hand, making a general key for when he is yound and when he is old and acting like all of his reincarnation are all like that isn't. Then acting like all his items can be used at once is wrong too.

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    • TriforcePower and ZephyrosOmega are the ones making the most sense here. It's way more practical to have a single page for Link, who is canonically considered to be the same character, than have 19 pages that are basically the same, with most of them having the same abilties and scaling, and with only a few differences between them.

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    • I didn't disagree with that.

      I am simply saying that takin giving him items that he cannot use at once isn't something that can be done.

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    • Whoever is creating the profile should post a link to the page to give a visualization of what it will look like. It could clear up confusion.

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    • ZephyrosOmega wrote: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:ZephyrosOmega/sandbox

      Is this an acceptable layout for his new page? 

      They posted one draft last month.

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    • It’s not appealing to tradition, it’s just saying that there’s a good reason for why we’ve been doing that for basically ever since the dawn of the wiki. As it is now, those characters aren’t a composite, aren’t considered as such and Link would be among them. If you have a problem with that, make a CRT for “Why every character profile who appeared for more than three separate pieces of fiction is wrong”.

      “A journey” you do realize that’s just going to uselessly make them all the more redundant, since basically all of them except SS would basically just be “High 7-A for first bosses, High 6-A for late bosses, and whatever tier they are currently rated as”. The 19 pages are already redundant enough.

      Except, they kinda are? I think we’ve explained multiple times that all Links are basically identical in terms of tiers, with the only thing deciding which tier exactly being their equipment. It’s way easier to show that in a single page anyway. And for the last thing, we are an indexing site first, a vs one later. How a certain thing can be used in VS threads shouldn’t change how we make pages.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Seems fine 

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    • Then explain why it's a good reason. It's still misleading to just put multiple all items they can't have at once and act like they do have them. It's less about the VS part and more about mashing together things they don't have at once into one key.

      There is also the fact that most characters with more than three games or such to them don't die and reincarnate in-between said games. I'm not saying to make a profile for each one, but taking things that are used by one game and applying it to a profile for Link in general is still wrong.

      Anyhow, I'll be busy for today, and I do see why the page would be made like that, I just don't agree with it.

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    • He isn't even definitively considered the same damn character, and even then, this 19-profile-composite Link doesn't even exist.

      I'm sorry, this has next to no arguments in my opinion, and this looks like an excuse to wank the fuck out of Link too.

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    • We already agreed Composite Link needs to go, but the 13 canon are what we're discussing. I believe they should all stay for reasons I layed out in detail as it makes the scaling a lot easier to manage as well. Plus they're all different characters as mentioned above. The 5 non-canon characters are each their own thing, but the 19th/Composite getting removed would leave 18 left. 13 separated canon characters with 5 characters who came from non-canon spin offs.

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    • I would just make a back up of the current profiles and then see how this new profile is used. If it causes too much confusion, leads to wanking/downplaying, or causes some other problems then you could revert to the old format.

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    • Deleting the individual Links isn’t good imo, but I am not letting composite Link get deleted. This is a hill I’m 100% willing to die on.

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    • Another problem is that there may be some revisions regarding the cosmology, which some may effect some profiles but not every other one. And if we have a single squeeze, cluttered page that contains information from every incarnation with multiple keys and those keys having some keys. Then there may be some merging and splittings of various keys. Plus the keys with sub keys often get confusing since certain abilities are mixed up. It's better to just edit the specific characters getting effected.

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Deleting the individual Links isn’t good imo, but I am not letting composite Link get deleted. This is a hill I’m 100% willing to die on.

      You don't have to die brother, I have your back!

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    • Zark2099 wrote: He isn't even definitively considered the same damn character, and even then, this 19-profile-composite Link doesn't even exist.

      I'm sorry, this has next to no arguments in my opinion, and this looks like an excuse to wank the fuck out of Link too.

      Read the OP. I don’t want to repeat myself

      Nope, it’s to avoid Link being treated differently than basically half the wiki. Not my fault if you don’t like how we’ve handled most of the wiki’s pages. If avoiding double standards, preventing repetition between 19 pages with a much more concise single page, treating Link closer to how canon portrays him is next to no argument, I don’t think there’s anything that could convince you, so I’ll probably stop here.

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    • "Half the wiki", I don't think I know a single character that dies, reincarnatesas a different person with none of the memories (but same personality), and doesn't get a seperate key for their lives.

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    • And I will openly admit that Link is a particular case, but I think I’ve already explained why Link is much closer to his videogames counterparts than, like, Avatar Aang or others.

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    • Yes. But saying that the wiki does it differently isn't really true when any case where a character is like link that I can think of gives different keys for said reincarnation.

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    • That’s the thing. There’s barely any character like Link, who’s considered always the same person by both fans and creators, whose reincarnation only exists to make the series fit into a timeline instead of being a floating continuity like it was originally supposed to be (just to let this point sink, I’ll mention how Link was confirmed to reincarnate only in SS, around 25 years after the start of the series), so we need to make him fit somewhere.

      Again, I’ve already explained why Link falls much closer to the characters above. Do I really need to pull that Giorno reference about having to repeat myself?

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    • Which makes you using other profiles to justify your submission rather pointless, doesn't it?

      The reason Link has multiple reincarnation doesn't seem like something that really matters to me. Nor does it matter when he was stated to start reincarnating.

      I had characters that die and ressurect as another person and said new people got new keys for them. They even had memories from their old self, let alone personality.


      And Link doesn't really fall close lr to the game characters at all. None of them die and reincarnate, losing their memories in the process. There's also stuff like how some items behave somewhat differently, like that sword that makes copies of you.

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    • Yeah, it was already discussed, "compositing" Link is an extreme no, if they are going to be mixed in one profile, each "Link" has to be separated like the profiles do.

      TBH, this seems to be only so Composite Link can be used in an unofficial way and get matches added, if that's the case, then the above is to be done, as I don't really care for that regard.

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    • As I said, no. Since Link is somewhat of a special case, we need to make him adhere to certain standards, and I’ve already explained why he falls under the same ones as every page I posted above.

      You’re right, the reason he has it is meaningless, it was mainly to show his somewhat special status, which you agreed he had.

      Let me guess, those characters mostly come from a self contained story, who barely have any other key aside from that one, right? If we used that same thing with Link we would have a dozen of redundant keys, and I’m doing this exactly for removing that redundancy, just like all the above pages did.

      And Link is close to those pages. He’s a character from a series with multiple entries whose tier isn’t based from which game he’s in but by his form. He’s basically identical, and you’re using something not even Nintendo cares about to contradict it. Quoting the OP “Lastly, changing “Link (Composite)” into just “Link” or “Link (Spirit of the Hero)”. I honestly prefer the first one because it’s less confusing for those who aren’t a fan of the series, even if the second one is technically more appropriate given that what this is, at the end, is effectively making a page for “The Spirit of the Hero” more than “decomposing” Link. It wouldn’t count as a composite anyway since he’s an actual character of the verse, and assuming otherwise is simply contradicting the lore.”

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    • Could you stop bringing up the "Nintendo also says his one link"? As explained, they obviously do, that changes nothing here.

      He is the same person reborn over and over,everyone gets that.

      I'm saying that as he is a single character with an actual timeline, he has to be at some point in that timeline. The only profiles that don't take the characters at a certain point in time to write down their abilities are the ones that have no actual chronology to them like Mario.

      Here you know what comes first and what comes after, so just taking a Link default is something I don't see the point of. And while that alone isn't wrong, I don't see how you can give him all the items he can obtain if you insist on not tying him down to the chronology of his adventures.

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    • You do realize you’re basically saying: “Who cares about canon?”, right? “Let’s create headcanons because those fit into our standards better than the actual canon of a series”

      Mario is the only example I cited without a timeline. Kirby is somewhat arguable, but there are several elements implying that there is one. The other ones have one.

      I’m not giving him all of his items at once. I’m dividing his equipment into tiers.

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    • Could you point out what any of what I said has to do with headcanons? About disregarding Canon? You mean me telling you to stop citing the Nintendo thing, cuz I told you to stop that because it changes nothing at all since link still loses his memories and is reborn. Do you mean me pointing out that tiems can vary in their effects in-between games?

      I genuinely don't understand what you meant by that. The only thing that wouldn't fit to a point in Canon is your suggestion, which just takes a standard of what Link grows into in each reincarnation, and then just throws in his equipment all at once when there's no point in canon where he has all of his items. Because you don't put things that physically can't be in one place at once into one key.

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    • You talk about the reincarnation thing as a problem almost as if this weren’t a page for the soul that reincarnates but a mashing of the different bodies said soul inhabited.

      Also, that’s not true, the above characters all have a ton of stuff they shouldn’t have in a single key, but that’s not the point as we’re only trying to rate them with those items. A page can have equipment or abilities that may be even mutually exclusive for indexing purposes, like Crono having both the Guardian Helm and the Bird Katana despite the fact that in a single play through it’s impossible to get both. Quoting Sera: “The exceptional nature of Pokémon comes from the fact that it’s an RPG. Ashen One being a single character is irrelevant. The fact that we assume they’d have all potential power ups in Dark Souls 3 is what’s important. The Ashen One profile is representative of the possibilities of the Dark Souls 3 protagonist, not just any one player’s playthrough.” In other words, you’re too fixated with VS debates when making a page in an indexing site.

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    • A FANDOM user
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