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  • Decisions (not yet finalised) from the last thread

    To discuss and report: profile pages that need to be removed, profile pages to be reworked and split, and updating all of the pages that link to them

    Important Notice

    Antvasima wrote:
    Let's wait with deleting profiles until after we have decided how to modify our rules regarding what is and isn't allowed please.

    Current list of possible composite character profiles

    Character Suggested treatments Decision/Status
    Anna (Fire Emblem Composite) Thanos decimated
    Barbie (Movies) Current Barbie profile should be split according to her films and animated shows
    Billy Lee Stay
    Black★Rock Shooter (Composite) Thanos decimated
    Bugs Bunny (Composite) To split into Bugs Bunny (Comics) and Bugs Bunny (Cartoon). Possibly more profiles in other media if differentiated enough. (Under discussion whether to delete all characters from the Looney Tunes verse)
    To be refrained from any versus debates in the versus board of this site due to difficulty in identifying any canon versus joke/gag feats.
    Calypso (Twisted Metal) Stay as still within the Twisted Metal game
    Casper the Friendly Ghost (Composite) Split into Ghostbusters debut and any more profile according to the media appearance
    Composite Mii Composite profile to be Thanos decimated.
    All different Mii incarnations in different media/games should be interconnected by top tabs.
    Composite Ruler (Crusader Kings 2) To split into different profile/key phase for different race and class from its game
    Crash Bandicoot (Character) Stay as game canon Crash and Skylanders Crash
    Daffy Duck Same treatment as Bugs Bunny
    Daphne (Cartoon), Fred (Cartoon), Shaggy Rogers (Cartoon), Scooby Doo (Cartoon), Velma (Cartoon) Current profile should stay with match results but restrict to Scooby Doo original cartoon feats. Note that there is a reboot since 1987. So maybe make multiple profiles for multiple era or works.
    Death (Folklore), The Big Bad Wolf, The Bogeyman (Folklore) Stay (due to the nature of folklore being too diverse among folks - sorting among different folks can be more tedious than doing on Pokemon)
    Devilman (Composite), Satan (Composite Devilman) Split into different profiles for different timelines and given set continuity/media
    Dirk the Daring Stay
    Elmer Fudd Same treatment as Bugs Bunny
    Felix the Cat (Composite) Current Barbie profile should be split according to his different works
    Fortuna Stay(?), but with key phases for different personas perhaps(?)
    Garfield To split into Garfield (Comics) and Garfield (Cartoon). Possibly more profiles in other media if differentiated enough.
    Gargantuar (Plants vs Zombies) Stay
    GARO (Composite) To split according to different media (Tokusatsu, anime and likely more)
    Ghostface (Composite) Thanos decimated/To split according to different people carrying the title
    (for instance this Captain Falcon covers Andy Summer and Ryu Suzaku has his own profile though he is the next Captain Falcon)
    Godzilla (Composite) Thanos decimated
    Hachune Miku, Hatsune Miku, Kagamine Rin/Len, Lily (VOCALOID), MEIKO, Megurine Luka and basically all VOCALOID characters Due to the multi-media nature of the characters, we are forced to use each composite version of all their official appearances. Separate specific key phases for specific and highly notable artwork appearances are recommended though.
    Henry Stickmin Stay(?); but needs to specify which equipment/skill he has (for each fight can limit some of his equipment/skill)
    Hero of Lore (Composite) Split into different games. Similar treatment with Link (Composite)
    James Bond (Composite) To split into different timelines that can be considered separate continuities. Add fresh profile for new game/media.
    Kermit the Frog (Composite) To split according to different media appearances (unless some works share the same canon)
    King Kong (Composite) Thanos decimated - split any specific feats into separate rpofiles according to works in media
    Kuzco Stay
    Lightning McQueen Split into different media/works
    Link (Composite) Thanos decimated
    Mazinger Z Stay
    Michael Myers Split according to each Halloween timeline or each crossover work
    Mickey Mouse (Composite) Similar treatment as Bugs Bunny
    Mr. Game & Watch Stay(?)
    Normal Neopet Wonder if the whole verse needs to be reworked. But I am not comfortable to snap it away straight.
    Papa Smurf Split according to media
    Plok Stay
    Princess Zelda Same treatment as Link
    Red (Angry Birds) The most well-known version is the video game version, then the movie version. Again, split into different versions (OP Bird and NP Bird may share the same profile). Has to acknowledge the difficulty to realise feat yields from the game direct.
    Sadako Yamamura Stay
    Scrooge McDuck Stay
    Scorpion (Injustice Composite), Superman (Injustice Composite) Stay
    The Awake Stay
    The Doctor (Doctor Who) Stay according to this guy
    The Mask Stay (with reclassification to Comics!Mask, Movies!Mask, Anime!Mask, Joker-Mask and Lobo (Post-Crisis) Mask) be reworked according
    The Player (Neverwinter) To split into different profile/key phase for different race and class from its game
    The Lakewood Slasher (Composite) Stay
    Turok Stay
    Vecna (basically characters from Dungeons and Dragons) To be discussed separately
    William Blazkowicz Stay(?)
    Willy Wonka (Composite) Stay(?)
    XCOM Soldier (Composite) Stay but split into different key phases for different roles, or limit equipment for different roles picked

    One special request for RPG characters to classify by career: key phases should be set for each character picking one career and needs to go through procedures for a non-instantaneous change in career.

    Here are the new rules:

    • Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable canonical version of the character at any given point in time.
      • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.
      • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.
      • While some verses may have a lot of stories written by a lot of different authors over a wide span of time, as long as these are all considered canon to each other, their feats can be used together without being considered a composite.
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    • Composite Lightning McQueen should be removed.

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    • Link (Composite)

      Godzilla (Composite)

      Wait, couldn't we use the deletion requests thread?

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    • This thread is for sorting out which composite threads are to be deleted, which are to be split into several profiles etc.

      Once the profile classifications are done, the requests for profiles to be deleted can be sent to the profile deletion thread.

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    • Can somebody in the staff rewrite the first post to get a better title and summary explanation please?

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    • Kinda surprised Princess Zelda isn't on that special list of composites considering her profile is a mash up of all the different Zeldas in the series.

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    • I hear her profile was fine but that could've been a lie or joke

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    • If her profile mashups every appearance she had at this point, she qualifies as a composite.

      It's essentially the same thing Composite Link is, and he's getting nuked.

      So you Will have to work on every different incarnation.

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    • I really don't think composite Mario should be a thing.

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    • Ehhhh

      Henry Stickmin

      Need to make sure here.

      This Henry is a composite Henry of every single option in all of his games. Most of his abilities come from his "fails" which aren't considered canon.

      However my objection is that he'd thereotically have access to these abilities as they're presented as choices he can take... It's just that in that situation it'd lead to a fail.

      However it's up to you guys i guess

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    • The Calaca wrote: If her profile mashups every appearance she had at this point, she qualifies as a composite.

      It's essentially the same thing Composite Link is, and he's getting nuked.

      So you Will have to work on every different incarnation.

      There’s only four incarnations worth having profiles. OoT due to Sheik, Wind Waker, Spirit Tracks, and Breath of the Wild. Also the non-canon ones.

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    • Devilman and Satan should be deleted, as their profiles a mash-up of alternate timelines and reset continuities (excluding Devilman Lady, which is canon to the original). I can make other, non-composite profiles in the future.

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    • Also G&W isn't getting deleted.

      You could make an argument for his High 8-C key going bye-bye but Mr. Game & Watch himself isn't deletable

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    • GARO (Composite) should be deleted. In fact, this is like compositing Flash or Superman.

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    • The Player (Neverwinter) should be on the list to be deleted since it is a composite of every race, and class from it's game.

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    • Thank you to everybody who are helping out.

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    • You’re not welcome. I’m still against this. This is begrudging.

      ...that was too mean. You didn’t do anything, Ant. I’m sorry for taking my anger out on you.

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    • No problem.

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    • Anyway, come to think of it, going by the last thread, we were going to better clarify what kind of composite pages that are and are not allowed, yet our current Editing Rules simply say this:

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics, potentially gathered from questionable sources, and do not comply with other rules of the wiki."

      This should probably be expanded upon according to our previous discussion before we proceed further.

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    • I don't think there is anything to add to be honest, except that:

      • Under special cases, the wiki allows for species to be composited if there is minimalistic difference amongst them alongside little significance to the actual plot of the verse.

      That should cover all the Pokémon and Digimon profiles alongside generic minions, right?

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    • Well, we are gonna need the basic coding of the to be deleted composite profiles, including the match results, so they can be moved to the Joke battle wiki instead of being lost forever.

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    • I’d rather Composite Link be lost forever than be a joke profile on JBW. I have my pride.

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    • Time to make a Composite Battles Wiki

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    • Can somebody check through what was said in the previous thread regarding exceptions, and then summarise it here?

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    • Zark2099 wrote: Time to make a Composite Battles Wiki

      I mean, I don't think I'd plan to do that myself, and I wouldn't ask anyone else to do it, but in all honesty that does sound like a good way to handle it.

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    • Composite fictional character.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Can somebody check through what was said in the previous thread regarding exceptions, and then summarise it here?

      Here's a basic summary.

      Pretty much all composites should be banned. However, there are some profiles that, while appearing to be composites, should still be allowed (such as Pokemon). While these may appear to be composites, given that they describe things such as entire species or just characters with the same capabilities and capacities as other characters, they are essentially "canonically composite". They should be exceptions since they essentially exist within the canon.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: I don't think there is anything to add to be honest, except that:

      • Under special cases, the wiki allows for species to be composited if there is minimalistic difference amongst them alongside little significance to the actual plot of the verse.

      Adding that to the Editing Rules should cover all the Pokémon and Digimon profiles alongside generic minions like Koopa Troopas and basic CoD soldiers, right?

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    • Honestly, that explanation does work, it could probably just be a bit more precise.

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    • Hmm, any suggestion in improving it?

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    • I thought that there was an exception for prominent characters with no coherent canon, such as Bugs Bunny, as well.

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    • For Bugs Bunny specifically, the way it should be handled wasn't 100% concluded in the original thread. One of the main suggestions with the most support seemed to be to simply composite the individual versions of the character (like separating the comics version from the cartoon version). If we handle it like this, how should that be explained in the rules?

      EDIT: If that is how we end up handling it (which I'm not saying we necessarily should, mind you), then here's a potential explanation that could be used:

      • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may be acceptable.

      (I've reworded it, as such a profile would not technically be a composite. It would only include the depictions that take place in the same canonicity, and it would essentially just feature the version of the character at the latest point in the timeline, similar to "End-Game" keys for game characters, so it likely wouldn't truly be considered a composite profile.)

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    • The Doctor is fine thanks to the openness of Doctor Who’s canonicity (plus there would be much bigger revisions if we decided to neglect the EU since that’s what half our ratings are based on)

      Secondly the Injustice stuff is fine (that page’s usage of Composite is slightly misleading)

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    • Also while Michael could be separate pages each Halloween timeline is clearly split up with little cross scaling

      If you mean the EU then ok we can have that discussion but I’m still in opposition

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    • Perhaps you could ask the staff members who contributed to the previous thread to help out here as well?

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    • I'll ask Saikou, Medeus, Sera, and Dargoo. Anyone else who should be involved?

      EDIT: Dargoo is currently inactive due to finals, and will be until the 15th, so I will not contact him for now.

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    • I do not remember so well. Sorry. But you can check through the previous thread on your own for contributors if you wish.

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    • ByAsura wrote: Devilman and Satan should be deleted, as their profiles a mash-up of alternate timelines and reset continuities (excluding Devilman Lady, which is canon to the original). I can make other, non-composite profiles in the future.

      I think all the characters in Go Nagai verse need to be reworked. Someone just needs to sit down and take the time to properly do them, instead of rushing and skimming through all the material scrounging for the best feats.

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    • Crzer07 wrote:

      ByAsura wrote: Devilman and Satan should be deleted, as their profiles a mash-up of alternate timelines and reset continuities (excluding Devilman Lady, which is canon to the original). I can make other, non-composite profiles in the future.

      I think all the characters in Go Nagai verse need to be reworked. Someone just needs to sit down and take the time to properly do them, instead of rushing and skimming through all the material scrounging for the best feats.

      There is only Devilman manga and Devilman anime

      Just rework on the anime counterparts, kick all the manga feats back to the manga profiles and we are done.

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    • James Bond (Composite) needs to be nuked. All the necessary preparation to do that have been done i.e. The other versions already have a page.

      It would be highly appreciated if someone were to help in removing the matches of the character though

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    • Maybe we should remove the matches first since it is a lot and we can use the page as help to find them all.

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    • Zark2099 wrote:
      James Bond (Composite) needs to be nuked. All the necessary preparation to do that have been done i.e. The other versions already have a page.

      It would be highly appreciated if someone were to help in removing the matches of the character though

      Do the films follow more or less within the same timeline though?

      As if, movie James Bond is the most well-known James Bond and game James Bond and James Bond from other media should have separate profiles.

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    • Is somebody willing to ask all of our content moderators to subscribe to this thread?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Is somebody willing to ask all of our content moderators to subscribe to this thread?

      I'll send a message to them.

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    • The Connery and Brosnan versions are official reboots that don't follow the canon of the Original Bond Series.

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    • @Joaco

      Thank you for the help.

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    • Contacted all of them (Except for Crzer07 because he's already on the thread)

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    • I’ve subscribed so let me know what I need to do. Imma be a bit busy for the next few hours so a quick summary would be helpful.

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    • You do not need to help out yet, but later we need help with deleting profiles and updating all pages that link to them.

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    • Mummies (Goosebumps) need to be removed.

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    • Dragonstitch wrote:
      The Player (Neverwinter) should be on the list to be deleted since it is a composite of every race, and class from it's game.

      This profile seems fine to me since it's like the Future Warrior (Xenoverse 2).

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    • ^^

      Yeah, it seems like it is fine.

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    • @Walker

      Congrats, you're dead to me

      Fine, go ahead and delete everything Goosebumps (I honestly don't care at this point)

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    • meanwhile I am picking up scheduled treatments for different profiles, including impromptu treatments suggested by myself - decide within 1 or 2 hours.

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    • I am available for a while but I can delete composite profiles where the discssion id conclusive deletion.

      Can a definite list be provided please because I don't want to jump to conclusion?

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    • Scooby Doo should be fine, because the timeline is connect, the timeline reset at ml, that why Scooby Doo meet Batman two time.

      We need removed all comic and game stuff the pages.

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    • You mean like a list of the characters that have to be removed?

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    • Other goosebumps profile don't need to be delete because there not composite. maybe curly and that it.

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    • Haunted Mask (Goosebumps) and Ricky Beamer profiles from Goosebumps can be saved if they're reverted to the original version by me since those only take the source material to be canon, don't deleted them.

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    • Walker21232123 wrote: Other goosebumps profile don't need to be delete because there not composite. maybe curly and that it.

      Aren't they compositing literally everything though, including like, video games and spin-off comics and stuff?

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    • Speaking of Goosebumps...

      This guy stomped Arthur Morgan I think.

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    • Wolf (Goosebumps) don't need to removed becuse he only be in the book and tv show (book and tv show are same).

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    • Are all other Goosebump's profiles acceptable for deletion, right?

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    • Zark2099
      Zark2099 removed this reply because:
      Remind me when it falls, thank you
      16:38, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Zark2099 wrote:

      Walker21232123 wrote: Other goosebumps profile don't need to be delete because there not composite. maybe curly and that it.

      Aren't they compositing literally everything though, including like, video games and spin-off comics and stuff?

      Wolf not, Gummy Bears (Goosebumps) is only the movie.

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    • Let's wait with deleting profiles until after we have decided how to modify our rules regarding what is and isn't allowed please.

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    • Ok, Antvasima, your point makes sense.

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    • User yo to hate me after this

      Domestic Cat, should be very removed, this a composite profile about house cat.we don't have a Domestic Dog page.

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    • Walker21232123 wrote:

      Domestic Cat, should be very removed, this a composite profile about house cat.we don't have a Domestic Dog page.

      That's a profile for the overall species, it's fine to stay. And domestic cats are far from being diverse as dogs in terms of breeds.

      I'm not sure if people understood what qualifies as a Composite Profile, or at least one worthy of deletion.

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    • DMB 1 wrote:

      Walker21232123 wrote:

      Domestic Cat, should be very removed, this a composite profile about house cat.we don't have a Domestic Dog page.

      That's a profile for the overall species, it's fine to stay. And domestic cats are far from being diverse as dogs in terms of breeds.

      I'm not sure if people understood what qualifies as a Composite Profile, or at least one worthy of deletion.

      There a 10-B house cat

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    • Excuse me, what?

      Oh I get it. But that sounds like a major outlier (not in the Vs-Debating sense) of the species.

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    • Zark2099
      Zark2099 removed this reply because:
      Stephen King
      16:37, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I forget to add the cat because I am rushing.

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    • Zark2099
      Zark2099 removed this reply because:
      Kirble
      16:37, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Zark2099
      Zark2099 removed this reply because:
      Spoon
      16:37, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Zark2099
      Zark2099 removed this reply because:
      Bow
      16:37, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Jesus Christ stop derailing y'all. I'll start deleting unrelated comments now

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    • Discuss here if there are more questionable composite characters, or discuss the general rules here.

      I need to sleep now ttyl. Thanks for all the effort.

      May peeps here reign, proud and free, now and evermore,
      Glory be to VBW!

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    • Triforce made a thread for dealing with Composite Link, as for Composite Mii, that can have Wii Sports and Nintendo Land separated. Wii Sports Mii was around Wall level iirc. I'm fine if we hakai Composite Anna; the profile is a little outdated due to not using the new abilities from Three Houses yet. But even so, that profile can get hakai'd as we still have another profile for her that's more fitting.

      I'm not even sure how Billy Lee got "Composite characters" as a category. But yeah, he's just one guy who can stay. I might have more, but those are my two cents for now.

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    • What about Pokemon? Is the entire verse gonna get nuked?

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    • Species composites like that are considered valid. Just the composites that are across medias are not allowed

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    • Yeah, profiles for species are fine. Composite may or may not be the right choice of words however.

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    • I think Bond should be split into profiles relating to the actor portraying him. Then perhaps have a key for film continuity and game continuity? The OG novels by Ian Fleming should be a separate page also.

      XCOM Soldier should be split into different classes. (Assault, Grenadier, etc)

      I'm eventually planning to split Commander Shepard into separate keys based on the class, or something along those lines.

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    • We already have separated Bond. The other stuff like OG Novel Bond or game Bond can be added later.

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    • My apologies, but I don't like how it's currently separated though. James Bond (Nightfire) and James Bond (Everything or Nothing) is clearly a portrayal of Brosnan's incarnation, except it's just the game versions of the movies he portrayed.

      Ideally it should just be under Brosnan's profile and then a movie key and a game key.

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    • No, because the games have a completely different canon and storyline. Nightfire and Everything and Nothing are completely different stories with little to no references to the original plot of the Brosnan games.

      If you said that to GoldenEye, I'd have bought it, but no, it's again compositing appearances of the character out of laziness

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Triforce made a thread for dealing with Composite Link, as for Composite Mii, that can have Wii Sports and Nintendo Land separated. Wii Sports Mii was around Wall level iirc..

      Wait, do we have Nintendo Land profiles?

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    • @Joaco0902 ATM, the Composite Mii is judged based on feats from Nintendo Land such as fighting "Two Ganons" or fighting Kraid in the Metroid attraction of Nintendo Land.

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    • Wait, why are we straight up deleting Anna from the site? I mean, yes, the composite profile has to go for obvious reasons. What I mean is, I'd like to have a replacement profile created in the place of the original. And due to the nature of the character and the probable reason why she was composited in the first place, I'd like to call out the Awakening version of the character to replace the current profile. Not only is the character a physical presence in the game, with even the possibility of marriage for her under the right conditions, but she's also the one in charge of the Outrealm Gate, which is an interdimensional portal that is basically just there to justify DLC. It also establishes Fates in the world of Awakening as well, but that's a different topic.

      Also, since we're getting rid of the composite profile, a profile for the Heroes version of the character should be made as well, since this version of Anna canonically is the commander of Alfonse's army, and is a major character in the campaign.

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    • Anna already has another profile that includes her Awakening version and her Heroes version. This one will still be here even if even if this one goes. Though, now I'm more neutral but just pointing that out.

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    • Just out of curiosity is Isaac (Binding of Isaac) considered a composite?

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    • no

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    • Why is Michael Myers on the list?

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    • Michael isn't a composite page save for like a few comic feats, which are easily removed.

      Jason Voorhees and Freddy Krueger are issues, but horror canons in cases like theirs are weird. Xenomorph and Predator

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    • Jason and Freddy comics are canon right? They start off directly after the events of the film. Or would this be considered extended canon?

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    • Extended canon.

      I personally think the comics are fine, but it's important to have a discussion about it.

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    • Ok, I'll make a thread about it later.

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    • Following

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    • Antvasima wrote: Anyway, come to think of it, going by the last thread, we were going to better clarify what kind of composite pages that are and are not allowed, yet our current Editing Rules simply say this:

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics, potentially gathered from questionable sources, and do not comply with other rules of the wiki."

      This should probably be expanded upon according to our previous discussion before we proceed further.

      We still really need to improve and expand on our current very limited editing rule before we do anything drastic. For example, it needs to specify that composites of the Pokémon variety are allowed and why, and likely the Looney Tunes variety as well, as they have no true canon.

      Help would be very appreciated.

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    • Tom and Jerry had no canon.

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    • Personally, considering prior discussions over why composite profiles should not be allowed, I believe a better wording for that editing rule would be something along the lines of,

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable, canonical version of the character at any given point in time."

      "potentially gathered from questionable sources" is a bit too vague, and would not be a problem exclusive to composite profiles. And "do not comply with other rules of the wiki" doesn't explain much other than just... it's against the rules, when the section is meant to explain why it's against the rules.

      To answer Antvasima's question, however, to explain why species or creatures along the lines of Pokemon might be allowed,

      "Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once."

      To explain characters set in a clear but non-linear canon (such as Loony Tunes), the section I wrote up earlier could be used:

      "In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may be acceptable."

      Would these sections (or some variations on these sections) be acceptable explanations for what is and is not allowed?

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    • @DarkGrath

      That seems fine to me, yes, but let's wait to see what other staff members think as well.

      Here is the entire new suggested text:

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable, canonical version of the character at any given point in time. Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once. In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable."

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    • Walker21232123 wrote: Tom and Jerry had no canon.

      They do. The original Hanna-Barbera Series, the Chuck Jones shorts, Tom and Jerry Kids, the 2000s WB Animated series, a coupla interconnected movies in the 2000s too, and the 2010s Animated series and those crappy crossover films. All of these are individual series that would have their own profiles

      Please don't just assume because a character is from the 1940s they don't have a "canon". There are still definite series and reboots, even though the episodes themselves don't have a continuity. Just because Simpsons have a floating timeline doesn't mean we're compositing them across medias.

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    • Basically anything from Hanna-Barbara and Warner Brothers needs multiple profiles for different canonicities, due to how many times they reboot long-dead franchises and make new shows and the like.

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    • Here is the current suggested regulation text based on the other discussion thread about this topic:

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable canonical version of the character at any given point in time.

      • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once.
      • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.
      • While some verses may have a lot of stories written by a lot of different authors over a wide span of time, as long as these are all considered canon to each other, their feats can be used together without being considered a composite."

      Staff input regarding if it is acceptable would be very appreciated.

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    • Walker21232123 wrote: Tom and Jerry had no canon.

      The Tom and Jerry show directly references the original shorts at least once. They definitely have a canon.

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    • Michael's page is already split between timelines.

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    • So... again, what about Myths? They are the composites of several interpretations of several story tellers who probably didn't know each other's works (some were known, obviously, but not all of them), with majority of the deities having had multiple versions over time and location depending on what the cultures saw as best fit for them.

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    • GoCommitDi
      GoCommitDi removed this reply because:
      hmm
      21:36, December 12, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      So... again, what about Myths? They are the composites of several interpretations of several story tellers who probably didn't know each other's works (some were known, obviously, but not all of them), with majority of the deities having had multiple versions over time and location depending on what the cultures saw as best fit for them.

      The Grandfather Clause.

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    • HenryWong122 wrote:

      The Grandfather Clause.

      yeah but why tho?

      Even the normal composites were more clear in what could and couldn't be used, and in the canon used for them.

      Here's it's quiet literally hearsay for the origin of most of them since there is no single canon. Literally nothing in a myth is something we can use as a base thing that all other versions can be tied to, even the names of the gods changed a lot.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      HenryWong122 wrote:

      The Grandfather Clause.

      yeah but why tho?

      Even the normal composites were more clear in what could and couldn't be used, and in the canon used for them.

      Here's it's quiet literally hearsay for the origin of most of them since there is no single canon. Literally nothing in a myth is something we can use as a base thing that all other versions can be tied to, even the names of the gods changed a lot.

      The Greek Gods only had ever two names, the original Greek names and the Roman names.

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    • No, not at all. The Greek gods were slowly formed out of other named gods.

      Regardless, my point is, myths don't fit any of out standards for profiles except popularity, composite or not. Why would they get special treatment?

      I get people put work and effort into the profile, but Composite profiles also had their fair share of research behind them.

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    • Hey, Before you start nuking all the composite profiles, message me before they get deleted so I can save them on my blog

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      No, not at all. The Greek gods were slowly formed out of other named gods.

      Regardless, my point is, myths don't fit any of out standards for profiles except popularity, composite or not. Why would they get special treatment?

      I get people put work and effort into the profile, but Composite profiles also had their fair share of research behind them.

      I'm tired of talking to you. Good Bye.

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    • I mean, your reasons for keeping the myht profiles was to make them excoections to the rules and saying that Greek gods didn't have more than two names. Neither is a reason.

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    • Edwardtruong2006 wrote:
      Also G&W isn't getting deleted.

      You could make an argument for his High 8-C key going bye-bye but Mr. Game & Watch himself isn't deletable

      I made an argument for his High 8-C key going bye-bye.

      My opinion hasn't really changed, there's no real justification for that key, and it's honestly worse than any composite I've seen listed on the OP. It's not even compositing under the same character, but different characters on entirely different games (which don't even match our standards for continuity or canon to begin with, as an aside) slapped together because an entirely different franchise had a representative that was loosely based on the original games, with a few trophy snippits explaining what the character in Smash is.

      I'm fine with considering him an exclusive Smash Bros. character, however.

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    • Mr Game and Watch could almost be considered a species; we consider the Writer from DC Comics a civilization/species for similar reasons.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Mr Game and Watch could almost be considered a species; we consider the Writer from DC Comics a civilization/species for similar reasons.

      ... I feel like this is going to be used to defend obvious composites in the future. In before someone gets the idea to make a 'Hylian' profile to circumvent the composite Link deletion.

      I don’t feel like I have to explain why considering G&W as a species is utterly ridiculous and isn’t supported by anything, and I’d love to actually hear any evidence from you that remotely supports your conclusion.

      Game and Watch is a composite Game and Watch games character. Not a species. There is a character from Smash and that’s it.

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    • I think Saikou should have the right to debate before that profile gets touched however. I do agree that simply making him a Smash character is a fine option.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: I think Saikou should have the right to debate before that profile gets touched however. I do agree that simply making him a Smash character is a fine option.

      Alright, I’ll wait for that. I’ve talked over the subject before, though, so hopefully there’s new stuff to be brought to the table.

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    • I agree with Dargoo on the Game and Watch matter. I do understand where the point of compositing him is coming from, but there really isn’t enough basis to make them an exception.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Here is the current suggested regulation text based on the other discussion thread about this topic:

      "Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable canonical version of the character at any given point in time.

      • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once.
      • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.
      • While some verses may have a lot of stories written by a lot of different authors over a wide span of time, as long as these are all considered canon to each other, their feats can be used together without being considered a composite."

      Staff input regarding if it is acceptable would be very appreciated.

      @All staff members

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    • In regards to the third point, I thought that was discussed to be removed?

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    • Well, the modified rule seems to have been accepted by Promestein and Celestial Pegasus in the other thread:

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3762548

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once.

      I mean, this kind of principle is what makes stuff like Composite Human possible, which we've removed previously. Even if we exclusively apply this to fictional universes, you have some verses where the power system is technically usable by any living human being (for example, it could theoretically be possible in many Fantasy verses for a single human to have mastery of all magic, despite no human actually achieving it in-verse), which would justify a loophole of making a "Composite Human" which is actually more of a proxy for "Composite character in X-verse".

      Antvasima wrote:
      • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.

      This kind of contradicts with our other rules of canon and plot requirements. We disallow verses that don't have continuity, and this seems to just provide a workaround where "well, the verse doesn't have a linear canon/continuity, but it's fair to slam everything under the same IP together and make up our own continuity".


      Apologies on not commenting sooner; I've been busy with testing, which just finished, thankfully.

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    • Myth profiles are perfectly fine.

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    • No, making profiles for species are nothing like composite human. A species profile would be for abilities that all members of the species have, regardless of upbringing. A wolf will have enhanced senses, a bear will be 9-B, etc.

      A human will not have every skill humanity has ever had. A human species profile would be nearly blank and rated 10-B since humans are the basic assumption for all profiles.

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    • Kepekley23 wrote: Myth profiles are perfectly fine.

      Again, why?

      Do we just make an exoection for them or are you saying that they don't fit what a composite profile is?

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    • Zark2099 wrote:

      • Under special cases, the wiki allows for species to be composited if there is minimalistic difference amongst their members alongside little significance to the actual plot of the verse.

      I still think these conditions should be addressed in the rules, as this does counter profiles like Composite Human and stuff like that.

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    • @Dargoo Faust

      I would appreciate if you could write up a draft text based on the one that I posted earlier, which you find acceptable, and that allows us to keep Pokemon- and preferably Looney Tunes-style profiles.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Dargoo Faust

      I would appreciate if you could write up a draft text based on the one that I posted earlier, which you find acceptable, and that allows us to keep Pokemon- and preferably Looney Tunes-style profiles.

      I don't think Looney Tunes is consistent enough for us to have profiles on them, so I don't see how that's possible.

      I'm fine with drafting a version that's amicable to Pokemon, although even then I have reservations regarding as treating two of the same Pokemon as effective clones with the same powers, feats, and skills no matter how I draft it.

      Ricsi-viragosi wrote:

      No, making profiles for species are nothing like composite human. A species profile would be for abilities that all members of the species have, regardless of upbringing. A wolf will have enhanced senses, a bear will be 9-B, etc.

      There is no set of abilities that 'all' members of a species will have besides possibly DNA sequencing; although even then there's variance in regards to that.

      For example, the claim 'all developed, healthy adults can walk' is incorrect, as a number of healthy adults can be born paraplegic, and others can be bodybuilders who work their thighs every day of the week. A perfectly average human doesn't exist.

      So obviously we're not making the profiles based on commonalities among all members of a species. To go off the rule, and examples of it being applied (Pokemon, for example), we seem to be using the strongest possible interpretation of a member of that species.

      A human will not have every skill humanity has ever had. A human species profile would be nearly blank and rated 10-B since humans are the basic assumption for all profiles.

      You seem to be misreading the rule proposed.

      for entire species

      "if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once."

      I'm not reading that as 'an average member of that species', rather 'a profile that has all the characteristics a species can have, as long as any member of that species can have them'.


      Zark2099 wrote:
      I still think these conditions should be addressed in the rules, as this does counter profiles like Composite Human and stuff like that.

      I feel like that clause fixes a lot of the issues with the species rules, too.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      I don't think Looney Tunes is consistent enough for us to have profiles on them, so I don't see how that's possible.

      I'm fine with drafting a version that's amicable to Pokemon, although even then I have reservations regarding as treating two of the same Pokemon as effective clones with the same powers, feats, and skills no matter how I draft it.

      I think that it would be better if we continue our discussion in the other thread, as there are more staff members participating there, especially if we are supposed to delete all of the Looney Tunes profiles and similar.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      I think that it would be better if we continue our discussion in the other thread, as there are more staff members participating there, especially if we are supposed to delete all of the Looney Tunes profiles and similar.

      Alright, I'll copy+paste the stuff I posted here, there.

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    • Thank you.

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    • Just read through the Looney Tunes annihilation proposal.

      The way Looney Tunes should scale would much affect other comedies with inconsistent crazy feats.

      Anytime a new discussion thread is made, please post a link here. Thanks.

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    • Who are going to replace Mickey Mouse and Godzilla in the Featured section of the wiki? Perhaps just disambiguation pages?

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    • I do not know. Sorry.

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    • Godzilla got a disambiguation pages.

      Godzilla (Disambiguation)

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    • Mickey only has 2 versions around right now (leaving composite at a side), I would go for King Mickey if you ask me, as a disambguation page for only two incarnations that already link to each other may be redundant.

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    • should be all the composite profile to a Composite Battles Wiki.

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    • We probably have to come up with other very popular and distinctive characters to link to instead if Mickey and Godzilla are removed.

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    • Which would be in that case, however?

      A votation likely would be needed to avoid controversy.

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    • We can actually make the modern Mickey Mouse shorts Mickey and Fantasia Mickey easily, and there is a House of Mouse respect thread for a 9-B Mickey, so we can get to working on them for the linking

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    • I go to work on a Scooby Doo timeline.

      Some era/Works don't fit the timeline go to be split.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      Alright, I’ll wait for that. I’ve talked over the subject before, though, so hopefully there’s new stuff to be brought to the table.

      Still waiting on this. I even talked this over with Saik on Discord, and so far I haven't really been presented with much more than trophy descriptions from Smash.

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    • Personally I think Bugs Bunny (and basically most Looney Tunes characters unless specific incarnations can be identified) is so iconic as a cartoon character and especially a Toon Force user that, instead of deleting the profile as a whole, we should simply refrain them from entering into any versus debate thread in the versus board of this site.

      The current composite profile imo should stay as is, except LT characters will be banned from any versus debate thread in the versus board of this site. Looney Tunes is so iconic to be removed from any information website about fiction. Just picking a particular canon is so difficult.

      Just my 2 cents.

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    • My 2 cents:

      I disagree with them getting banned from VS Debating, especially since the VS Battles bugs and his tactics are the same as what he does in Character in the show itself

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    • I agree with I'm Blue tbh, they really shouldnt be banned/deleted

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    • Before making decisions here, we first have to decide how to properly word our new rule in the other thread.

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    • I am with Blue and Di.

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    • I agree with Blue.

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    • So as Ant and Di and Blue says by now:

      We refine our wordings on the general rule first.

      Warp gate

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    • Antvasima wrote: Before making decisions here, we first have to decide how to properly word our new rule in the other thread.

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    • Apex PredatorX wrote:
      What about King Ghidorah (Composite)?

      Same deal as Composite Godzilla, which people (including me) seem to already have agreed to delete.

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    • That is why there are so many Godzilla profiles, I knew this was gonna happen someday. So I divided the Composite Profile in individual profiles.

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    • I still haven't seen any response on the removal for G&W's High 8-C tier. Considering that Ed has already said that there's legitamate arguments for removing it, and Saikou hasn't responded despite being prompted to this thread and me having brought his attention to it off-site, I would like it to be added to the chopping block on the OP.

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    • I disagree with Bugs getting split up in the 1st place since we don't have any proof that the comics and the show aren't canon.

      Hell, we don't know if even some the EPISODES aren't canon

      Thing 2 is that Bugs isn't barney, Bugs has been in plenty of combat situations and much of his hax he uses in combat or offensively

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      since we don't have any proof that the comics and the show aren't canon.

      Hell, we don't know if even some the EPISODES aren't canon

      Why are we assuming them to be canon in the first place?

      Why do we need to disprove their canonicty if they haven't been proven to begin with?

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    • We don't know if they are even non canon, we can't assume they are or they aren't

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      We don't know if they are even non canon, we can't assume they are or they aren't

      I mean, can you give me a solid sequence of events that occur and logically add up for the original toons, comics, etc?

      The cartoons aren't meant to be taken as a continuous story. It's just skits and shorts with little to no rhyme or reason between them outside of what's needed to set up the next joke.

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    • We can't assume if anything in Looney Tunes is canon, you can't index it because we don't know what's canon or what isn't

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    • Oh. So I agree with you?

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    • You can't divide things from each other into seperate continuities if we don't even know if there even is a continuity.

      It's why we mash everything Mario related  into a profile because he has no canon to use

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    • Would canon composites be affected by this? (composites except not really since it’s the same character throughout it all) Examples being Unicron and a few FF characters (mainly the main 3 recurring V bosses)

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: You can't divide things from each other into seperate continuities if we don't even know if there even is a continuity.

      It's why we mash everything Mario related  into a profile because he has no canon to use

      Or, maybe, like our rules specify, we don’t use verses that have no clear continuity instead of mashing everything together to get imaginary characters?

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    • If we have characters from no real continuity then we remove many popular characters then

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: If we have characters from no real continuity then we remove many popular characters then

      Alright.

      I’d rather us follow our own standards than make creative exceptions for verses that don’t meet them.

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    • Mario isn't composite, we only use stuff from the games. All games published by Nintendo are confirmed to be canon, it's just that it's a loose canon; meaning the main story is simply completely out of order.

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    • Oh well,

      At least This confirms that Bugs Bunny shouldn't go or get matchbanned.

      At worst he will get did divided into 2 profiles

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    • So, could anyone explain why Myths are an exception? I have no problem with it by itself, but I don't see specific reasons for it.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      So, could anyone explain why Myths are an exception? I have no problem with it by itself, but I don't see specific reasons for it.

      I think the OP finally explains it.

      Anyways, as the one that did Casper and Papa Smurf, I'm sure I'll need help with those, as I didn't think much of specific incarnations, especially on Casper.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      So, could anyone explain why Myths are an exception? I have no problem with it by itself, but I don't see specific reasons for it.

      I think the OP finally explains it.

      Anyways, as the one that did Casper and Papa Smurf, I'm sure I'll need help with those, as I didn't think much of specific incarnations, especially on Casper.

      Papa Smurf (Sony)

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    • The Rule has finally been applied

      Onto deleting stuff, lads

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    • The wiki is now a battlefield. The Composites are our enemies.

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    • Heads up before anyone brings it up, I'm in the process of decompositing current Goosebumps profiles, so no need to delete them now.

      In the event I die or give up or something, then y'all can proceed to nuking unworked profiles.

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    • Zark2099 wrote: In the event I die or give up or something...

      Well that escalated quickly.

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    • You should all preferably read the wording of the new rule first: Editing Rules

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    • I want to help enforce justice.

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    • I am very willing to help with Neopets related stuff, although I am not very experienced/confident at editing profiles. I'm not sure if Numbersguy is active, especially in regards to the 'verse, but if he is, it may be worth it to contact him.

      Still, I will gladly help with any Neopets revisions, so PLEASE contact me if any start!!!

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    • Imaginym wrote:

      Well, basically, the "Composite" Neopet profile needs to be divided into individual species, instead of being a combination of every single one.

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    • Fun. Well, if nothing else, I can probably help establish which species should have what. I'm not as good/experienced at making profiles, however.

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    • Basically, take Pokémon as an example, it likely shouldn't get much different from that.

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    • As in, just give each species of Neopet their own profile? Not that much trouble, since there's only like, 55. But again, I've only made like, 3 profiles in my life & very rarely edit profiles.

      But yeah, shouldn't be too much trouble. I guess start with a revision thread to establish what and what not to include and hope people participate?

      Edit: Roughly made a revision thread.

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      Would canon composites be affected by this? (composites except not really since it’s the same character throughout it all) Examples being Unicron and a few FF characters (mainly the main 3 recurring V bosses)
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    • Those are not composites. Those are just characters with a lot of abilites.

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    • Shouldn`t https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Andre_and_Calvin_(Zero_Day) be on the list due to them being two seprate people having sperate arsonals

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    • I added a copy of the current rules to the first post:

      • Do not create composite profiles, as they contain highly inflated statistics and do not represent a reasonable canonical version of the character at any given point in time.
        • Profiles for entire species may be acceptable, if it can be shown that the species in question would potentially be capable of having any and all of it's potential characteristics at once. However, these profiles should not include exceedingly extraordinary or underwhelming feats and abilities from notable individuals of a species, and the viability of these profiles are determined on a case-by-case basis.
        • In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable.
        • While some verses may have a lot of stories written by a lot of different authors over a wide span of time, as long as these are all considered canon to each other, their feats can be used together without being considered a composite.
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    • Would say having a bunch of clowns be one profile be allowed

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    • Alright The Player (Neverwinter) is done. 

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    • Skeletor and He-Man should be added to this list

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    • I agree. Their profiles should preferably be split into each respective canon.

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    • Since, the rule was made, can someone link me all the pages that are fine to be delete because I want to certain of deletion as some pages are being discussed to be split into multiple pages?

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    • Isnt almost all pokemon God Tier are a Composite?

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    • God Tiers are the least composite, since there is normally only one member of a legendary "species".

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    • Anna can stay as long as only her Awakening abilities (which are 99% of the profile) are the ones remaining. Not as a composite.

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    • Are all compsoite profiles with people with seprate arsonals being sprated?

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    • Seperated or deleted.

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    • Ricsi-viragosi wrote:
      Seperated or deleted.

      ok there was one profile i was asking about  eric and clavin from zero day

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    • I doubt that has any major composite parts. They have three abilities, and Zero Day isn't exactly a franchise with many entries, so I don't see how they would be composites.

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    • Dargoo Faust wrote:

      So after getting no responses for nearly a month, I will leave a message on Ed's and Saikou's wall explaining that Game and Watch's non-Smash key will be removed shortly. I'm mostly doing this as Ed has already conceded that there's valid arguments for this key being removed, and has left no further comment on my arguments here.

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    • As the person who made the page. I can tell ya that Pink Panther is a mixture of both his older and newer cartoon. So this would qualify I believe as a composite

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    • Ehh, if Shaggy Rogers (Cartoon) can have feats from several of his cartoons, why cant the Panther?

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    • I just noticed what they are doing with Bugs. Pink panther would fit under the same thing. He should be fine then probably. His page only considered two cartoons

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    • Scooby Doo had a timeline.

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    • Have everybody here inspected the new rules, so we do not remove any pages that do not need to be?

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    • So far only Composite Godzilla has been decimated.

      And Shaggy has been revamped.

      That is it.

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    • Okay. Were the tabbers at the top of the Godzilla profile pages updated accordingly?

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    • PaChi2 wrote: Anna can stay as long as only her Awakening abilities (which are 99% of the profile) are the ones remaining. Not as a composite.

      ^ Rename Anna (Fire Emblem Composite) into Anna (Fire Emblem Awakening) and there you go. Or Anna (Fire Emblem) and split it into Awakening and Heroes. Though now 3 Houses Anna exists. Whatever, really.

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    • It seems like the tabbers were updated.

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    • It looks like Spawn is composite for his base, according to the profile's key, so I think that first key for his profile should be rearranged and separated into different profiles for each base canon.

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    • I’m pretty sure Spawn is just one canon

      Agree it should be keys tho

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    • The Spawn comicbook uses one canon in theory, yes, but I have read that it has been inconsistent/incoherent over the years.

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    • That’s a poor reason to say it’s a composite tho

      In that case let’s do the same for DW and Marvel

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    • I didn't say that it was composite.

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    • Miracle Lights (Pretty Cure) need decompositing.

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    • bump

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    • I wonder if Lara Croft and Soul Calibur pages need to have the versions be in different pages or stay as keys.

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    • What currently needs to be done here, in summary?

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    • I think Lara Croft does, since it seems to include all her games and I'm fairly certain not all of them are canon to each other. Could be wrong, didn't play much.

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    • I can separate Lara Croft into different profiles.

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • No problem

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    • Elizhaa wrote:
      Since, the rule was made, can someone link me all the pages that are fine to be delete because I want to certain of deletion as some pages are being discussed to be split into multiple pages?

      bump

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      What currently needs to be done here, in summary?

      Most composite pages need to be seperated before they are fine to delete;d its looks most of these pages are still not separated here.

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    • For this case, I think we can go with this choice: Composite profiles will be deleted but their delete source codes will be posted here so supporters can used for splitting the profile canon versions, I think this process is more efficient.

      Any opinions, everyone?

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    • I would also appreciate if more people actively help out with this.

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    • Elizhaa wrote:
      For this case, I think we can go with this choice: Composite profiles will be deleted but their delete source codes will be posted here so supporters can used for splitting the profile canon versions, I think this process is more efficient.

      Any opinions, everyone?

      I disagree with this. Yes, it is taking a long time for these processes to push through, but trying to rush things may end up hurting us. And considering that our forums will be axed in a couple of months, I believe the best course of action is simply proceeding as we are now, instead of risking losing all of the source codes to the profiles.

      However, I do agree with Ant that more active participation is really needed at this point in time.

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    • Starter Pack is probably correct.

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    • Starter Pack wrote:

      I guess its makes sense. I just wanted to let you know the codes would not be loss since content moderators, admins, and bureaucrats could still retrieved them from the deletion logs.

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    • why did composite godzilla get deleted?

      there is no canon godzilla, we consider any licensed godzilla canon as there is no main timeline and stuff. There is like 20 different godzilla profiles and none of them are being used much as there is too many. Composite godzilla was the perfect solution for a main godzilla profile, yet now it is gone and practically undiscussed.

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    • Because there is no Godzilla who has all of that, and they are explicitly different entities (most of the time).

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    • The God Of Procrastination wrote:
      Because there is no Godzilla who has all of that, and they are explicitly different entities (most of the time).

      "In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable."

      pretty sure it falls perfectly into the description

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    • There's been a new rule regarding composites. The new one forbids mixing continuities to creating a composite character.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      There's been a new rule regarding composites. The new one forbids mixing continuities to creating a composite character.

      (whisper) that's a load of barnicleeees

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    • Wait so Composite Scooby Doo is allowed since (excluding Apocalypse and some of the resent movies) most of the stuff exists in the same continuity 

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    • I think that Scooby-Doo is allowed for the cartoons that are in the same continuity.

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    • On a slightly unrelated note:

      "In the event that a character has no linear canon, but rather treats all of the related works as being canon without much context as to the order of events, a profile detailing all of their feats at once may also be acceptable."

      This rule either doesn't make sense, or is poorly worded, since

      • I legit don't know what it means and who it applies for, and I've asked a couple of staff members
      • Even then, in the current state this is just baiting loopholes to exist and justify pointless composites once more.
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    • It is intended for characters such as Bugs Bunny, that wouldn't be able to have any profiles otherwise.

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    • I mean, is that justified? Gags with no correlation don't seem prime profile materials.

      He certainly can't do everything he does all at once.

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    • I do not know. The Looney Tunes profiles are probably not particularly reliable, but feature major pop-culture icons.

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    • This profile isn't a Composite at first sight, but it's obviously one.

      Darkrai is an incarnation of every Darkrai from every media, and while Pokémon has its own rules regarding canon because of a few statements, there are several contradictions with this such as the general mindset and morality of the different Darkrais. CryoTheMayo explained this much better.

      This is a serious case of adding everything from every media into the same character, even if the depictions of each Darkrai are completely different from each other.

      The obvious solution is to split the profile according to each incarnation, because the way it seems, this is deliberately violating the rules of the wiki under the argument that Pokémon has a green light (which should seriously be revised considering this is a thing).

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    • Okay. That seems to make sense, but you should ask Cal about this.

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    • He knows, actually. He's obviously against this.

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    • Bugs bunny might need to be downgraded at worst but he shouldn’t be deleted

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    • You'd have two profiles with the exact same shit with a different mindset. Because anything they can do in the anime they can do in the games, and vice versa. That's why Pokemon gets the pass.

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    • But that's not an excuse to mix different CHARACTERS up. On top of that, most Darkrais have different applications for the same moves and different mindsets.

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    • Then bro, why have two different profiles with two characters with the exact same stats and powers with the same justifications, but the only difference is that one is evil and one is good? Anime!Darkrai fires Dark Void Danmaku while PMD!Darkrai uses portals & thought. Both can use the other because what one can do it one medium, they can do in another.

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    • Threads should specify the mindset, then

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    • The Calaca wrote:
      But that's not an excuse to mix different CHARACTERS up. On top of that, most Darkrais have different applications for the same moves and different mindsets.

      That is not remotely enough to seperate keys into different pages. Also, relying on Cyro is not a wise move to make your point clear either as his reasonings have been addressed before and told the exact same thing to.

      And if needed to go through this thread the same way again, for whatever reason, so be it.

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    • InfiniteSped wrote:
      Threads should specify the mindset, then

      ^This and Cal already pointed this out in the thread already too. This is not a verse problem, its an issue with people doing something incorrectly. 

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    • Why would you composite the profiles, then?

      If they are too similar the solution is to dismiss one of the versions (likely the least notable) instead of ignoring the obvious personality differences and the rules of the wiki to merge both versions into the best possible outcome. Which is, again, the problem with composites altogether. This goes beyond the species' compositing because these are sentient beings with different backstories and personalities being merged into one, basically granting a serious case of bipolarity because we have no idea how this CD would think or act as it has different mindsets.

      This is like merging Superman Red Son with any other good Superman because they have essentially the same powers (tiering aside), even if Red Son is from an obviously different country.

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    • Those different character wouldn't have the same power at all though, one darkrai's dark void has completly different property than another Darkrai for exemple, as Cryo's say.

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    • Because the profiles aren't actually composited? They may look like that on the surface, but they are given the pass because of the verse's canon being composite. This was discussed more in length in the composite nuking thread from multiple others.

      As for Darkrai specifically, your acting like Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon or Pokepark is what Ash's Pikachu is to any run of the mill Pikachu. It most absolutely isnt. It's literally just Darkrai using different abilities. And the mindset issue is, again, resulting of people not knowing to properly clairfying mindsets.  

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    • Isn't Red Son only like...planetary?

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote: Because the profiles aren't actually composited? They may look like that on the surface, but they are given the pass because of the verse's canon being composite. This was discussed more in length in the composite nuking thread from multiple others.

      As for Darkrai specifically, your acting like Darkrai from Mystery Dungeon or Pokepark is what Ash's Pikachu is to any run of the mill Pikachu. It most absolutely isnt. It's literally just Darkrai using different abilities. And the mindset issue is, again, resulting of people not knowing to properly clairfying mindsets.  

      That's still a completly different ability, which shouldt be composited for no reason, when a single name is used for 3 or 4 different ability by 3 or 4 completly different character, it's clear those character aren't supposed to be equal or have the same ability.

      Mindset doesn't change anything to the fact that one Darkrai's dark void is a projectile while another's is a ground attack or a portal.

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    • Lucario has three profiles (but his species' profile is also composited in some details which is hilarious because it's blatantly selecting what's fine to composite and what's not).

      Mewtwo is also a Composite, even when the two movie versions even have different genre and the female one has the same mindset but not the same past (which kinda invalidates the movie's message but eh).

      Composite Pokémon is a problem by itself because it takes any individual no matter how different it is from the rest of the media and merges with the rest like it's normal.

      Or why is Pikachu from anime separated from the species outside of power differences? Isn't every media canon to each other? Shouldn't every Pikachu scale to Ash's because that's what we're doing for Darkrai, which is composited because every Darkrai scales to each other?

      This is a blatant double-standard where some characters get different profiles while others don't.

      @Cal "aside from tiering". It's just an example. Most Sups' have similar backgrounds but have a few differences that change their characters.

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    • It being used differently or not doesn't matter when the "character" in question is literally just another member of a species. Which all are capable of clearly doing the same things as each other for obvious reasons.

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    • Back in my day, we used to separate profiles, even if all timelines are canon, by timeline.
      ~ SomebodyBoomer

      In all seriousness, this is probably a good time Because at this point I'm acknowledging that I don't have time to do it myself to point out that the "everything is canon" in Pokemon thing is a myth. It doesn't exist. These are all composites.

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    • Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

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    • It's not being used differently, it's another ability altogether with very different property for liiteraly every single one of them.

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    • False, and I have the statements from Masuda and Tajiri to prove it.

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    • The Calaca wrote: Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

      I missed the part where in multiple mediums, every Saiyan scales to Frieza as opposed to Raditz. Or where the only difference is the Kamehameha shot.

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    • >Insert DIO saying "Come as much as you'd like" meme.

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    • I'm neutral on the matter but it's this kind of situation I think Sera was talking about, how a Vs thread divulged into a CRT for one character and a potential downgrade/verse wide CRT for the other character thus leading to branching paths and headaches for all involved... :/

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    • The Calaca wrote: Let's composite every saiyan because they are all capable of doing the same, but in a different way. Like, one can spam ki blasts and the other can't but can do ki "air attack" (the invisible ones) and another one can create destructo disks. Clearly they have all the same abilities but can use them in a different way, so it's legal to composite the species even if they can vary in personality to the point where there are mercenaries, genocides and good people.

      Obiously the random farmer saiyan has all the same abilities as Nappa.

      Baby Broly has all the same abilities as any older saiyan since he has a similar / superior scailing.

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    • To be fair Axiom, this is like the couple of profiles that need to be debated. As far as I know, everything else will be decompositified or is in the process/finished.

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    • Outside of a few outliers (aka the protagonists) saiyans were 5-C/5-B (depending on what rating they end up being after the revisions). They are all very different from each other, but it's totally legit to composite them.

      Heck, even Goku and Vegeta have been at that tier so we can mix them up in the equation.

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    • Also amazing false analogy. What would be better to say is:

      Hey, why don't we say for the different Gokus, let's specify that one of them can't shoot the kamehameha from his feet, and only this one can do the warp kamehameha. That's a good assumption. It's the same move but who cares?

      And let's not act like Darkrai is a species. There's three of them at most, and that's the anime. In every other medium, there's only one.

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    • That's... literally a species. "Size doesn't matter."

      That's like saying Saiyans aren't a species because there is only three left.

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    • I have like 6 Dardkdrai in my pokebank, all from official events so yeah, i doubt there is only 1 in the game.

      Goku is a single character and even then we don't composite him nor do we composite Radditz with Beets or anything like that.

      The anime and movies treat Darkrai as a species, so do the games and even the mystery dungeon.

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    • So there are three of them in the anime which isn't a species.

      So why aren't those having a profile if they are different individuals?

      Which, again, is clearly showing a double standard. We have two Pikachus and three Lucarios because they are different in each incarnation. They are clearly different characters, but if it's Darkrai who are we talking about it's fine to merge different ideologies and the way it applies each power because of... what was the reason, again? You said that we can't treat Darkrai as a species, so compositing it's wrong as we do that for species only.

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    • We have two Pikachus and three Lucarios because they're not Legendaries. There's Pikachus and Lucarios everywhere and the ones with their own profiles all diamonds in the rough.

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    • Being Legendaries is a pretty bad argument. Unless they are the so called Unique Legendaries, this shouldn't be used to allow such thing. Different individuals can't be composited even if they are from the same species.

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    • I fully agree with Cal here. Pokémon is not composite, it's just that both the anime and PokéSpe manga are as canon as the games, so all these are taken into account, and the profiles are for the species in question, the few that have profiles are because those spiecemen are outliers. If anything, I'd rather delete profiles like PMD Grovyle, Movie 8 Lucario and even Anime Pikachu (this one's info can perfectly just be on Ash's profile) for the sake of not having the double standard of those certain outliers having profiles, when is better to not have them given they're still a part of the species.

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    • Don't wanna put you on blast Ion, but you say you agree with Cal but list some of the things he's specifically mentioning against doing...

      So do you agree with Cal to an extent? Or fully? Or not at all? Just to better organize the arguments.

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    • Amazing false equivalancies that are being thrown around here.

      >Lucario has three profiles (but his species' profile is also composited in some details which is hilarious because it's blatantly selecting what's fine to composite and what's not).

      Lucario is absolutely not the same thing as Darkrai, because unlike Darkrai, Lucario is not only specially trained in each version, Lucario has actual different backstories entirely from what the run of the mill Lucario would ever experience. Movie Lucario is trained and lived with Sir Aaron for over centuries. Lucario 7 is the sidekick to someone who is a super hero in their universe. The closest thing Darkrai has to any of this is being the partner of a last minute plot-device trainer, who even himself, has no backstory whatsoever.

      >Mewtwo is also a Composite, even when the two movie versions even have different genre and the female one has the same mindset but not the same past (which kinda invalidates the movie's message but eh).

      It's the same generic thing for Mewtwo. Both were created from Mew, by scientists who want to exploit its power, which makes Mewtwo distrustful towards humans. Literally the same thing. Also, Genesect movie Mewtwo isnt female. Having a female voice actor =/= confirmed female. Should we slap a gender on Arceus for it being voiced by a male? Ash has been voiced by a female for his entire existence. And I dont think I need to go any farther on that..

      >Composite Pokémon is a problem by itself because it takes any individual no matter how different it is from the rest of the media and merges with the rest like it's normal.

      For one, these arent seperate characters. They're a species. Second, your being misleading here. Obviously when a pokemon shows to be very different from the rest of it's species, it's feats and capabilities aren't included in the species composite page. But pokemon like Darkrai aren't apart of that. Speaking of which, this leads me to the next point.

      >Or why is Pikachu from anime separated from the species outside of power differences? Isn't every media canon to each other? Shouldn't every Pikachu scale to Ash's because that's what we're doing for Darkrai, which is composited because every Darkrai scales to each other?

      >Has an entire backstory before even meeting ash

      >Becomes a trainer pokemon, an MC's partner, and a well trained one at that

      >Faces other trainers, pokemon and opponents that no random run of the mill Pikachu has ever even dreamed of encountering

      This false equivalance is quite obvious.

      >This is a blatant double-standard where some characters get different profiles while others don't.

      A pokemon being actually treated as an entirely different character than another pokemon is not a double standard. Too bad Darkrai doesnt fall under this like Pikachu does.

      >It's not being used differently, it's another ability altogether with very different property for liiteraly every single one of them.

      It's a hax that freaking puts the target to sleep. What does Dark Void do? It's not a completely different ability. The only difference is one's a physical projectile, other is not. Even then, one Darkrai doing something without some special amp or quality to it's name doesnt mean its exclusive to what another Darkrai is capable of. This isnt some thunder armor deus ex machina power.

      So, yeah. If it wasn't painfully obvious, im still in full agreement with Cal and Ionsnite on every single level.

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    • SomebodyData wrote: Don't wanna put you on blast Ion, but you say you agree with Cal but list some of the things he's specifically mentioning against doing...

      So do you agree with Cal to an extent? Or fully? Or not at all? Just to better organize the arguments.

      I fully agree with him that the species profiles are the main information and every other profiles is because those are outliers to their species. Which is why I'm giving the middle ground of "delete the outliers" because the species profiles are the consistent ones, unlike the others that are, well, outliers with in-verse justifications as to why we accept those outliers as legit feats.

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    • Mewtwo being voiced by a female doesn't have anything to do with it being different but rather just due to the fact it's genderless to begin with, so the voice shouldn't matter.

      But the Ash argument is a false equivalency, Ash is a boy voiced by a girl but is voiced by a girl for the express purpose of sounding like a pre-pubescent boy, there's a reason behind it, but in the case of Mewtwo there doesn't need to be a reason.

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    • Okay well here comes my second question: 

      No one is arguing against the outlier profiles, actually we're all pro-them, the debate is on whether the profiles should be composite or not. So how is that... middle ground?

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    • SomebodyData wrote:

      So how is that... middle ground?

      Because one point of Calaca's argument is the double standard that is giving a profile for Movie 8 Lucario apart from the rest but we don't do the same with PMD Darkrai from Anime Darkrai. Which is why I say the way to solving that double standard is simply deleting Movie 8 Lucario, since a non-Legendary fighting a Legendary is a clear outlier that is only accepted because "muh trained".

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    • I'm in the opposed camp, remove the species but keep the outliers, just treat them as actual characters, doing that weird species outliers composite stuff is weird, illogical and frankly a mess.

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    • Dragomer wrote:

      keep the outliers

      Why would keep outliers? Did you suddenly forget what an Outlier is? This whole "this Pokémon is like 5 tiers above the rest of species because it's trained" non-sense has to stop. We need to keep all profiles streamlined to the actual species and disregard such outliers enterily.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      keep the outliers

      Why would keep outliers? Did you suddenly forget what an Outlier is? This whole "this Pokémon is like 5 tiers above the rest of species because it's trained" non-sense has to stop. We need to keep all profiles streamlined to the actual species and disregard such outliers enterily.

      I though you meant the outliers of the species, AKA the actual characters, not the outlier feats, species profiles, especialy in their current form just don't make sense.

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    • Huh, that makes sense. The issue is, like I said, we're pro-individual profile. It'd be more consistent to keep the individual profiles and argue directly the idea of composite canon pokemon.

      Though if it does turn out that Masuda did say everything from Pokemon 7 to PMD to *insert obscure material here*, guess that would be the logical step.

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    • AFAIK, the statements only back up main anime (the one with Ash), games and PokéSpe manga sharing the same canon. Unless Cal has more statements that I missed.

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    • I know (I think) what you're talking about, however the statement for Pokemon Spe was only secondary canon at best, and specifically regarding the early chapters of it.

      Anime has its own issues, probably going to end up getting treated like Z is to Super fyi.

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    • Now I know why people don't mess with Pokémon: Kukui's testaments.

      >First paragraph

      What exactly confirms that different Darkrai have the same background if they are different to Lucarios.

      If it's one Darkrai then holy hell how bipolar he is because he doesn't decide if he's good or bad in each incarnation. One of them is even a tamer's slave despite being a fucking legendary (this one is by far the worst case and should totally be separated from the profile because no place in hell would consider it 2-B).

      >Second paragraph

      Did Femewtwo meet Ash in the movie? If so, he/she should remember the events of the first movie because, c'mon, he's the reason why Mewtwo was evangelized. If not, it's either from a different canon or a different Mewtwo.

      Can you also explain why the change tho?

      Or can you explain why Origins' Mewtwo seems to be more animalistic than the other depictions? If it's the same Mewtwo, there we have a problem. This Mewtwo is also considerably weaker or Red's Charizard is a fucking monster and should be mentioned.

      >Third paragraph

      "This isn't the case for Darkrai because they isn't" is the summary of this paragraph. Instead of giving a good reason as why Darkrai is composited either for amnesia or for some weird plot device that makes change ideology from time to time.

      >Fourth paragraph

      This applies the other way around to Tobías' Darkrai, which is the most prominent case. This so called 2-B gets rekt by an average Sceptile and you can't just say "oh, it's PIS, Tobías actually has a God in his team even if the anime doesn't give a fuck about it outside of the movies".

      >Fifth

      Because you say so, but that doesn't mean it's wrong. Characters with no backstory exists in the wiki in every single verse. Lack of backstory is laughably one of the worst explanations you could try to disguise as argument.

      >Sixth

      Ignoring that every portrayal of the move is different and matters.

      I know you agree with him, but I don't see a single reason to not split a Composite profile made of different characters, not just members of the same species.

      If they are similar enough, then we yeet the notion that we're compositing the profile and just use the primary media (games, obviously) and ignore what the other depictions show. As it is now, the profile is violating our composite rules and you can't debunk the idea that these are different Darkrais, ergo, they are different characters.

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    • I don't know if that helps the case with Pokémon, but I think there is a misunderstanding of what was said about the "canon" (Not that there really is one in Pokémon).

      All that Masuda said was that if we want to understand about Pokémon's past, we could see that in Lucario's film. Then he was asked whether the anime, and by extension the films, share the same world as the games. His answer is that in thesis, everything is "Pokémon World", but it can be explained with parallel worlds.

      This just means that Pokémon shares the same "setting" between different media , the same myths, a backstory similar enough that if you know it in one, at least something very similar happened in another (So, if we know what happened in the past from Lucario's film, then we can assume that it explains what happened in the past in games). Nothing more than that.

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    • >What exactly confirms that different Darkrai have the same background if they are different to Lucarios.

      Easy. Don't make assumptions and insert your own headcanons about each darkrai's backgrounds when there isnt any in the first place. That makes much bigger assumptions than whats needed. Especially since Darkrai in general doesnt have any background besides being the pokemon of nightmares.

      >One of them is even a tamer's slave despite being a fucking legendary (this one is by far the worst case and should totally be separated from the profile because no place in hell would consider it 2-B).

      Yeah, a tamer to a "slave" who has absolutely no backstory, no charaterization, was made at the last second to be another "How will Ash Ketchum be robbed of his league win this generation" and literally never appears again in the franchise afterwards. Using a plot device that makes even Arceus's meteor pleasurable being a tamer to Darkrai (who for all we know, could have chose to go with Tobias) isn't a good argument at all.

      >Did Femewtwo meet Ash in the movie?

      ...Yes? This already tells me you don't know the full story.

      >If so, he/she should remember the events of the first movie because, c'mon, he's the reason why Mewtwo was evangelized. If not, it's either from a different canon or a different Mewtwo.

      You do know the first movie isn't even when Ash remembers Mewtwo right? It's from the special "Mewtwo Returns". And he remembers Mewtwo in the Genesect movie considering neither he or Pikachu are surprised one bit by Mewtwo's sudden appearance to save them from a rampaging Genesect.

      Obviously that Mewtwo is different from the first movie one. I said both have the same generic backstory (being created by mew from scientists and hating humans as a result). They are cut from the same cloth. Beside's being able to self-mega evolve, this Mewtwo's capabilities are literally no different from what the first movie Mewtwo is capable of doing.

      >This Mewtwo is also considerably weaker or Red's Charizard is a fucking monster and should be mentioned.

      Or we go the normal route and treat Red's Charizard as an outlier. Which should be quite obvious.

      >"This isn't the case for Darkrai because they isn't" is the summary of this paragraph.

      It's the summary of this paragraph because I have examples in the previous ones about why Darkrai doesnt fall under this like Pikachu or Lucario does.

      >This applies the other way around to Tobías' Darkrai, which is the most prominent case.

      It doesn't. Because as said prior, Tobias is literally a character who comes in the last second with a Darkrai he gets out of nowhere, never expanding on any backstory or characterization, just so he stops Ash from winning a league. And then permanently vanishes afterwards. Living example of a plot device and is completely different from Pikachu having a backstory with Ash, Lucario having a backstory with Sir Aaron, and other examples of pokemon having backstories with actual characterized trainers. 

      >This so called 2-B gets rekt by an average Sceptile

      So a sceptile from Ash of all people is average now? What? It's an obvious outlier anyway, but your view of Ash's Scpetile is very innacurate.

      >and you can't just say "oh, it's PIS, Tobías actually has a God in his team even if the anime doesn't give a fuck about it outside of the movies".

      Darkrai gets beat because Ash literally pulls a "power of friendship" out of his ass to make Sceptile, out of nowhere, wake up from a Dark Void (which even Dialga and Palkia needed barriers to stop) and then 2 shots a Darkrai that solo'd all Sinnoh Gyms and every Sinnoh league competitor without breaking a sweat. And THEN, Sceptile gets one shotted by a Latios literally right afterwards.

      I can very much say its PIS here. And on Arceus and meteor levels of it.

      >Characters with no backstory exists in the wiki in every single verse.

      Not as separate pages from their normal counterparts, which is the very thing your so adamant to argue for Darkrai here.

      >Ignoring that every portrayal of the move is different and matters.

      This last point was addressing Dragomer, not you. But since you mentioned it, why not.

      The portrayl isn't even different. It's just another way of using the move. Does the same thing, but in a different form. Its, again, not some Ash-Pikachu Thunder Armor, Ash-Infernape Blaze or Ash-Greninja water shuriken that pops up out of nowhere.

      >If they are similar enough, then we yeet the notion that we're compositing the profile and just use the primary media (games, obviously) and ignore what the other depictions show.

      Because, as everyone else have mentioned time and time again, the other media in Pokemon are exactly as canon as the games are for the reasons laid out. All of the canons exist with each other, this is much more than just being "similar". So this is an option that, as far as I and others go, is absolutely not happening.

      >As it is now, the profile is violating our composite rules

      And if you understood Pokemon's canon, it actually doesn't.

      >you can't debunk the idea that these are different Darkrais, ergo, they are different characters.

      They aren't different characters and you have brought absolutely nothing that says they are.

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    • >The games are obviously the primary media

      Statements about the anime and PokéSpe manga being put on the same level as the games: Are we a joke to you?

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    • Like I mentioned, the Pokemon Spe statements you're refering to put them in secondary canon and the anime statement was the one he was discussing...

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    • The manga is literally exactly the same as the games on, like, nearly every single level. Them being secondary canon is just silly.

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    • Too big for me, but I do want to note something:

      "Using a plot device that makes even Arceus's meteor pleasurable being a tamer to Darkrai (who for all we know, could have chose to go with Tobias) isn't a good argument at all."

      Plot device =/= plot induced stupidity, we actually use the former (The Dragon Balls, the arrow from bleach, etc) in consideration for the plot.

      Also how much character one has is subjective and not a point onto whether they should actually be considered. We have characters with less screen time / background here.

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    • If you take Taijiri's statement regarding PokéSpe at face value, he's actually saying that manga is more canon than the game, calling it the truest version of the franchise based on his vision of it.