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  • The Calaca
    The Calaca closed this thread because:
    Concluded
    00:18, December 11, 2019

    Both are 7-A. Weakened All Might is used.

    Rock Lee 12

    All Might 

    Speed equal.

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    • So checking the AP difference All might has a very slight advantage. And I think that might be it. Lee I think straight up outskills and is more versatile. So my vote is for bushy brow.

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    • 1 for lee then

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    • I mean it’s 810 vs 876 so the difference isn’t that big.

      Also lee FRA

      He pretty much takes every thing else.

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    • i suppose so but its def not enough for a one shot

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    • the difference is not big at all, they are very even.

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    • 2 for lee

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    • Rock Lee for reasons above.

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    • 3

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    • lee fra

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    • How is Lee getting around the Air Manipulation if it’s keeping him at bay?

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    • dodging it

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    • ^

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    • Rock FRA

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    • Kidkinsey wrote: dodging it

      Dodging wind that can devastate a city block isn’t that easy

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    • Lee FRA

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    • best Naruto boi Fra.

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    • Bushy brow FRA

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    • Insert creative name here 12 wrote:

      Kidkinsey wrote: dodging it

      Dodging wind that can devastate a city block isn’t that easy

      Isn’t speed equalized? How is Lee dodging the range with the speed equalized?

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    • grace started 3 hours ago :ooo

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Insert creative name here 12 wrote:

      Kidkinsey wrote: dodging it

      Dodging wind that can devastate a city block isn’t that easy

      Isn’t speed equalized? How is Lee dodging the range with the speed equalized?

      my bad didnt notice that, and possibly body flicker

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    • Well, All Might FRA,

      if Lee can’t dodge the large area range of All Might’s Air Manipulation with the Speed equalized. All Might will keep firing it, Lee takes damage from it while also smashing into the surrounding area from being blown back. Lee’s out skills will be useless if he can’t reach All Might since Lee has no range.

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    • Does he spam that in character though?

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    • @Captain he generates the winds with his serious movements and does actually use it if he’s at a large enough distance

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    • Well SBA states that there should be a middle ground for starting range OP didnt specify one. What would a "large enough" distance be considered for all might since his range with those air currents are upwards of 13 kilometers

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    • Huh re checking Lee's profile it seems he has his own wind manip via day time tiger. I think he could use that to pretty much neg all mights wind

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    • So lee still wins this.

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    • My Boi Lee FRA

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    • 9-1 

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    • EYEBROWS FRA

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    • 10-1 still grace

      Any other arguments for All Might?

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    • CaptainFinnigan wrote: Huh re checking Lee's profile it seems he has his own wind manip via day time tiger. I think he could use that to pretty much neg all mights wind

      How? How would Lee negate it? The AP is close enough where Lee can’t negate it outright, high or mid difficulty and All Might has the bigger range. Also, it’s implied All Might can make his Air Manipulation go off passively.

      A748A846-1865-4940-B06A-F5472EB3C463

      _____________________________________________________ Lee has to constantly focus on using his air manipulation techniques while All Might can just use them by walking to Lee.

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    • M3X

      Lee FRA. His 7-A version is comparable to Guy, who one shot a 600MT character

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    • M3X wrote: Lee FRA. His 7-A version is comparable to Guy, who one shot a 600MT character

      NotoriouSoda wrote: I mean it’s 810 vs 876 so the difference isn’t that big.

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    • M3X

      Guy won against All Might for the exact same reason I said

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    • Yeah, I just checked and nobody was arguing for All Might’s air manipulation. Besides, comparable doesn’t exactly mean scale.

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    • M3X

      Against Guy? He has Air Manip too, in a scale far higher than All Might's. Lee can also amp his speed with upper gates and Shushin to dodge the slash

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    • (About Lee, not Guy) Against All Might’s greater range and passive use of his Air manipulation? If Lee jumps, he gets blown away and still struggles against All Might’s wind force if Lee was approaching by ground, allowing All Might to get hits in from Lee’s slower reaction because of the Air Force.

      Also, the scan shown above shows that when All Might uses his passive winds, he amps up greater than what we’ve calculated, but it would keep All Might on this tier since we don’t know how much it would amp him.

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    • Not much time left before grace is up

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    • @elixir you never answered at what range point he uses his air manip, given that this is sba wouldnt they start at something like maybe 5 or 6 km? Would he even use it at point?

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    • Yeah, but i’m now questioning the votes.

      Lee’s wincons are:

      • Bigger AP (But there isn’t much difference)
      • Outskill
      • Versatility
      • Gate amps
      • Wind manipulation (Daytime Tiger)
      • Lee can dodge All Might’s range for his Air Manipulation plus Speed Equalized prevents that.

      All Might’s counters:

      • Lee’s Ap and outskill won’t matter if he can’t get close to All Might’s passive Air Manipulation
      • Lee’s versatility, Fire Manipulation and surface walking doesn’t do much against All Might’s passive Air Manipulation.
      • Gate amps can also be countered by All Might’s amp he gets to in order to use his passive Air Manipulation.
      • Lee has to concentrate and focus on using his Wind manipulation while All Might can use his Air Manipulation passively and proactively with greater range than Lee’s Wind Manipulation.
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    • CaptainFinnigan wrote: @elixir you never answered at what range point he uses his air manip, given that this is sba wouldnt they start at something like maybe 5 or 6 km? Would he even use it at point?

      SBA All Might isn’t above killing and his range reaches the clouds. Young All Might has shown to use his Air Manipulation when needed and Lee would require All Might to go all out.

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    • CaptainFinnigan wrote: @elixir you never answered at what range point he uses his air manip, given that this is sba wouldnt they start at something like maybe 5 or 6 km? Would he even use it at point?

      He used it to actively attack people when he was a couple hundred meters away but like I said he also generates it with his serious movements so let’s say he throws a punch and Lee dodges he’d still tag him with it

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    • This is All Might’s range, not vertical like the clouds when he punches up but also horizontal, when he punches down:

      34DFFE14-E11E-4752-9F76-C31465333824
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    • I'd say Lee's class G lifting strength should let lee stay on the ground and not just get yeeted into oblivion from All Mights air manip.

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    • All Might’s lifting strength is also G, so I don’t know how Air Manipulation works in this situation. Does that mean Lee just doesn’t move, not getting closer or further away?

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    • M3X

      Link me the calc for his Class G, please

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    • Rock Lee’s or All Might’s? Cause I don’t know how to find them.

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    • https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Dariel_Senju/Choji%27s_Cho_Baika_no_Jutsu_Calc Heres the calc that lee scales off of. I'll try and find all mights real quick

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    • Why is Air Manipulation such a big deal? All Might countering someone far faster and skilled than him is laughable.

      What's the source of this passive Air Manipulation? A statement contradicted by the fights where he went all out?

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    • The Calaca wrote: Why is Air Manipulation such a big deal? All Might countering someone far faster and skilled than him is laughable.

      What's the source of this passive Air Manipulation? A statement contradicted by the fights where he went all out?

      2FEE76F9-2A23-4C8B-AA46-2AEDC3C703FC
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    • The Calaca wrote: Why is Air Manipulation such a big deal? All Might countering someone far faster and skilled than him is laughable.

      What's the source of this passive Air Manipulation? A statement contradicted by the fights where he went all out?

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    • The Calaca wrote:

      The Calaca wrote: Why is Air Manipulation such a big deal? All Might countering someone far faster and skilled than him is laughable.

      What's the source of this passive Air Manipulation? A statement contradicted by the fights where he went all out?

      A statement made after All Might lost his powers.

      86287793-0407-4A4A-981E-258F0D50EC08
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    • A statement made after All Might fought at full power twice.

      First battle the shockwaves didn't even push 8-C students nowhere near as strong as an AM's finger.

      And his battle against AFO didn't have any Effect that I remember of.

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    • @The Calaca Oh, when did Weaken All Might go all out in peak physical health?

      • Was it the time with the Sludge villain and All Might already used up his power and had to be careful not to hurt Young Deku and Bakugo?
      • Was it during the time against USJ Nomu and All Might already exhausted his 3 hours and was running on fumes with the students, Deku, Bakugo, Shoto and Kirashima near by?
      • Was it the time when All Might was trying to save Bakugo and was stated he couldn’t go all out against All for One to not hurt Bakugo?
      • Or was it with little flame All Might unleashed all his power in the United States of Smash?

      When did Weaken All Might go all out when he wasn’t under the wire?

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      • The shockwave generated against Sludge villain happened with a direct punch.
      • Instance where he went further beyond his full power. When the shockwaves couldn't send children flying hundreds of meters even if they got pushed.
      • Didn't mention this, dude.
      • During all the fight, actually.

      Not to mention that implying Air Manipulation is some kind of hax that works on everyone regardless of speed and Lifting Strength is laughable.

      This is Weakened All Might, who can't do that at all. Or at least can't do it in the way you imply.

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    • > The shockwave generated against Sludge villain happened with a direct punch.

      Yep, it was a focused upward punch, not All Might using 100% all over his body to generate windstorms. Not that he could, as All Might vs AFO showed All Might having trouble generating OFA all over his body passed his time limit. Though, that fight had All Might an even harder time accessing his powers than before.

      > Instance where he went further beyond his full power. When the shockwaves couldn't send children flying hundreds of meters even if they got pushed.

      Um, All Might would be terrible at controlling his power if he gave off enough shock waves that would sending beginning first year students off flying. But it’s been stated multiple times All Might can naturally control his power out put.

      > During all the fight, actually.

      Yeah, One Punch downward, coming from a single arm from a dying-powered All Might. Made a whirlwind with a single swing.

      > Not to mention that implying Air Manipulation is some kind of hax that works on everyone regardless of speed and Lifting Strength is laughable.

      I don’t know why speed matter with Speed Equalized. It’s lifting strength that matters here, which All Might and Rock Lee are in the same class. Saying the Air Manipulation won’t get in Lee’s way of fighting, which is Lee jumping around the battle field, is not a reasonable argument.

      > This is Weakened All Might, who can't do that at all. Or at least can't do it in the way you imply.

      It’s stated in the panel that at 100%, All Might could create Windstorms with every move he makes, which would make the windstorms passive in nature. Weaken All Might’s fights always had Weaken All Might at a further disadvantage, so the panels above don’t contradict his fights.

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    • Except that he were at 100% and beyond during his USJ fight and I don't see any windstorm.

      Speed amps.

      Lee being on the class makes him able to resist the pushing like it's nothing. I don't see why it's a big deal. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if Lee's LS is higher than AM's.

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    • Nothing states minute-left All Might was at 100% and further Beyond statement has as much credibility as Deku saying 1 million percent. Horikoshi states words like that are self motivators.

      Speed amps would be given to All Might too if the statement All Might wasn’t at 100% all the time to prevent creating windstorms to hurt the surrounding public. Like if he traveled to where AFO was. Besides, anything AFO states about All Might’s Weaken state lost its credibility when he misunderstood how to create the USJ Nomu to kill All Might.

      Lee still jumps off the ground when he fight. I don’t understand how lifting strength factors in when his feet is off the ground.

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    • If you dismiss Deku as a reliable source then I can say the same for the passive windstorm shit which hasn't been proven ever.

      What? No. He has no speed amps. His top speed is equalized with Lee's natural top speed, with the difference that Lee has a method of actually increasing it. You can't say "huh, speed is equalized at AM's random percentage of his top speed so he can become x times faster when going all out".

      >Lee jumps

      >All Might jumps towards him

      >Lee gets reflected once

      Lee: A Fuuton user. Better move Smart.

      >Lee doesn't jump or just grabs All Might with his bandages so he doesn't get yeeted by the pressure again

      You're implying Lee is a moron fighting.

      Another scenario:

      >Lee gets yeeted

      Lee: I can't get close like this. Gates Released!

      >Proceeds to blitz All Might before he can flex

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    • > If you dismiss Deku as a reliable source then I can say the same for the passive windstorm shit which hasn't been proven ever.

      I didn’t dismiss Deku as a reliable source, I just said 1 Million Precent was stated as motivator. Also, Deku creates his wind manipulation based on the premise of All Might is using his Air Manipulation passively at 100% and All Might supports this premise by encouraging Deku to go that way in his training.

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    • Deku's Air Manipulation comes from the same as punching.

      None of that debunks the rest of the arguments. All Might can't yeet Lee nor tag him with his speed advantage.

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    • Lee FRA but isn’t this added already?

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    • > Deku's Air Manipulation comes from the same as punching.

      Yeah, movement.

      If Lee doesn’t jump anymore, what is his fighting style? The argument before was that Lee outskills All Might but Lee’s superior skills came from jumping, lifting his legs off the ground.

      > You're implying Lee is a moron fighting.

      I never said that. But if you believe I said that, you must think All Might’s fighting is poor. I’m just stating Lee’s disadvantage.

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    • How much do the Eight Gates amp anyway? Also how does he grab with bandages while being pushed by:
      I was blown away by his raw power
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    • IvoryAS wrote:

      How much do the Eight Gates amp anyway? Also how does he grab with bandages while being pushed by:
      I was blown away by his raw power

      Notice how that shockwave is weaker than United States of Smash? Unless its suggesting United States of Smash is an amp. Which its not.

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    • One of the most physically weakest characters got blown away by that shockwave lol I don’t see how that’s a feat

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    • All Might isn't battle Smart at all. If his opponent has a slight advantage he thinks on punching faster and stronger to win.

      That's stupid even for DBZ levels.

      >Lee's superior skill comes from jumping

      IMG-20191012-WA0026

      Wouldn't be because Lee has martial arts knowledge and knows how to fight instead of brawl everything on his path?

      What's Lee's disadvantage here? All Might's Air Manipulation? The thing that wouldn't work on someone with similar LS than him? The thing that wouldn't even happen because Lee can blitz him before he flexes?

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    • Just added the results to each of their pages, this can be closed now

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    • Those specs in the bottom right are Class 1-A (IIRC)




      Edit: I haven't watched these series much-at-all yet, so I'll take that L.

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    • OK, I’m going to put this on the vs thread request removal thread.

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    • IvoryAS wrote: Those specs in the bottom right are Class 1-A (IIRC)

      Fodders compared to AM.

      I'll close this.

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    • I'm not going to derail the removal thread.

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    • Ok, even if Rock Lee wins this, as proper vs forum, we need to establish what exactly Rock Lee wins with.

      • Lifting Strength don’t matter when Lee’s martial art require him to jump.
      • Superior Martial Arts require Lee to jump.
      • Jumping gets Lee blown away.
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    • ???

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    • As for Lee’s Gates, how quickly does Lee go into his gates?

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    • I'll list Lee's advantages:

      • Superior stamina. Only Gate Opened Lee would close the stamina gap.
      • Superior martial arts. Not every attack requires to jump. Have you seen Lee jumping to throw every single punch?
      • Speed amps.
      • Similar Lifting Strength so he doesn't get yeeted.
      • A 'weapon' to help his fighting style. If he grabs All Might with them, he wouldn't get away.
      • AP amps to close the non-existent AP advantage All Might has.
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    • Why do his martial arts require him to jump? He strqaight up outskills without needed to jump in the air. And like Calaca said he straight up blitzes when he opens the gates. As for how quickly he goes for it. He will probably go for it rather early considering he used the gates pretty early on in his fight with gaara. 

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    • Wait, does Lee’s AP come from his base stats or his amps?

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    • He’s 7-A+ without amps.

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    • CaptainFinnigan wrote: Why do his martial arts require him to jump? He strqaight up outskills without needed to jump in the air. And like Calaca said he straight up blitzes when he opens the gates. As for how quickly he goes for it. He will probably go for it rather early considering he used the gates pretty early on in his fight with gaara. 

      Cause SBA, every time i’ve seen Rock Lee in a fight, he jumps. His favorite move is bringing his legs down on people.

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    • Blahblah9755 wrote: He’s 7-A+ without amps.

      Would Amps bring him into a higher tier then?

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    • Cause SBA, every time i’ve seen Rock Lee in a fight, he jumps. His favorite move is bringing his legs down on people.

      Tru but like calaca said he will try it once get yeeted then change his strat accordingly

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    • CaptainFinnigan wrote:

      Cause SBA, every time i’ve seen Rock Lee in a fight, he jumps. His favorite move is bringing his legs down on people.

      Tru but like calaca said he will try it once get yeeted then change his strat accordingly

      Has Lee fought keeping his feet on the ground?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Blahblah9755 wrote: He’s 7-A+ without amps.

      Would Amps bring him into a higher tier then?

      His AP and speed would be higher. But if you mean into a different tier, then at least not without feats.

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    • Which matters little to nothing. You need to prove that All Might can cause winds strong enough to push Class G characters in his weakened state.

      Noumu and AFO were totally unaffected. Only fodder heroes, villanos and students were affected.

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    • The Calaca wrote: Noumu and AFO were totally unaffected. Only fodder heroes, villanos and students were affected.

      • The Nomu kept his feet on the ground and is in a different weight class than Rock Lee and the U.A. Students.
      • All the times All Might attacked AFO before reaching his limit, Bakugo was there. Then, the one attack he landed on AFO that AFO didn’t deflect while Bakugo was gone, and Giant Whirlwind happened.

      We’ve been over this on the AFO part.

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    • Blahblah9755 wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Blahblah9755 wrote: He’s 7-A+ without amps.

      Would Amps bring him into a higher tier then?

      His AP and speed would be higher. But if you mean into a different tier, then at least not without feats.

      7th and 8th gates did put Guy on a different tier, so can’t use those. But how quickly does Lee go into his other gates? Is it instant? If it is, then I’ll concede Lee just needs to punch All Might a couple times to win.

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3ox7CXeZ1g He doesn't go into it instantly but he will go into it rather quickly

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    • Lee hasn't used 7th or 8th Gates. The boost is also unquantifiable.

      But Shunshin is still fair game and he's able outpace and blitz with it.

      How is Noumu on a different weight class? He's class G scaling to All Might.

      Okay, I'm done. What's All Might's and Lee's Class G feats? This way we Will know who has the upper hand.

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    • Yeah, I see the clip. He jumps and punches. The force and trajectory won’t be blown away by that.

      Yeah, ok. I saw things about the match that wasn’t addressed and people assume I would understand how “Speed Amps” would translate to Lee’s moveset. Also, it sounded like people were using “Superior Martial Arts” to mean Lee is superior in all fighting styles, other than his traditional moves and that sounded NLF.

      But yeah, Lee FRA

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    • Finally, someone close this already.

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    • Pleasured to do so.

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