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  • As shown in the previous thread, multiple points of evidence seem to prove that Azura's dream world is a 2-A Construct.

    Screenshot 20191021-092826 Fire Emblem Heroes
    Multiple, multiple, tons of different statements seem to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the term "World" refers to different timelines/realities with their own space time, the photo here is excellent evidence, the fact that the timeline FE7 happens is different than the time FE6 happens are separate and that both gendered Corrins are on the dream world back this up.



    2aloli1
    2aloli2
    In the paralogue the Dream world appears, Loki states twice that Azura's dream world has an infinite number of realities inside of itself, which makes the realm/construct 2-A. 

    The maain theme of the paralogue is that Loki wants to convince Azura to use her power to help her achieve her plans, there is no reason for Loki to be saying there are infinite worlds "out there" or the quote would indicate this.

    "

    Both Azura and loki are inside of the dream world. And she said "in here".

    If she said "oh you gullible innocent loli, there are an infinite number of worlds OUT THERE..."

    Id agree with you, but the dialogue implies she is talking about the dream world Azura created. (Not to mention thebmain point of the paralogue was that Loki was trying to get Loli to use her power for her wicked goals.)"
    6qy0BH1
    MLgMO5V

    Previous thrreads:

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2678937?useskin=oasis

    and 

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3260570?useskin=oasis

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    • I would link the previous thread if I were you, for reference.

      Anyways, this is pretty clear at least to me, 2-A seems fine, but the staff have to also agree on it, after all, so please wait until they reply.

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    • I think this looks like 2-A as wel

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    • @Bobsican & Zenkai

      Are you willing to take over this thread, given that the OP has been blocked?

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    • I honestly still feel like this is the same thread being repeated. And I don't really have anything to say beyond what Azathoth has been saying on previous threads. I agree that the entirety of the Fire Emblem Heroes multiverse is 2-A structured. And that the "Creator of Everything" known as Alfador would be 2-A if he/she were to make an appearance. But I don't think the Dream World Azura created is enough to be a 2-A sized multiverse squeezed within the 2-A sized multiverse. The Dream World seems fine to be Low 2-C for sure, but the idea that there's an infinite number of dream worlds as well as them being individually 2-A seems very stretchy.

      So I don't think there needs to be any changes here.

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    • Okay. Thank you for the evaluation. Should we close this thread then?

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      @Bobsican & Zenkai

      Are you willing to take over this thread, given that the OP has been blocked?

      Sure

      "Why do you consider it to be "sketchy?", the paralogue itself heavely implies that Loki is talking about the dream world, which is in the main reason she was trying to get Azura to use her powers for her benefit.

      For further context, it should be noted that Loki is the daughter of Alfador, the creator of all, seeking a power close to that of her father's is in character.

      Paralogue 27

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk6ePW4pZac (Entire paralogue)

      It should be noted that the dream world and the worlds that exist within it are stated to be "boundless"at 6:11 as well, which backs up 2-A further."

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    • Yeah, Loki clearly states "There is an infinite amount of worlds HERE, my dear" and "THIS WORLD contains and infinite number of worlds within IT".

      I think it is beyond obvious that she is talking about the world she is currently in and is the MAIN FOCUS on the entire paralogue: the Dream world.

      The dream world, as stated by the most reliable source of information in the entire verse, IS a 2-A construct, it fits all definitions.

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    • I agree with Minto and Bob.

      I don't see any reason given why this isn't a 2-A multiverse. They quite literally say there are an infinite number of worlds out there.

      It even says there are an infinite number of worlds here and that the world they are currently in contains infinite amounts of them. 

      I'm not sure what the problem is. 

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    • Bumping.

      Like, I would really like to know what may be missing at this point.

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    • This does not seem too unreasonable.

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    • There exists an infinite number of worlds in general, so assuredly there are an infinite number of worlds within the entirety of the multiverse. But the problem is if 1 of infinite dream worlds is 2-A, and the other Dream Worlds are parallel, that requires a lot of assumptions to be stacking infinities without elaborate explanations. Alfador the creator of everything does have enough context to be 2-A, but I think it's best to consider Asura's dream just one of many dream worlds. Which would only qualify as Low 2-C.

      When she says "This world contains an infinite number of worlds within it" I'm pretty sure "This World" is referring to the FE Heroes multiverse rather than the Dream World they're in.

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    • I think that Medeus seems to make sense.

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      • "Loki also says that "There is an infinite amount of worlds here, my dear". Which contradicts the thought that she is talking about the general FEH Multiverse, again, it should be noted that the main objective of the paralogue if Loki convincing Young Azura into joining her.
      • The term "This world" is 100% being used to refeer to the dream world she is currently in, there is nl reason why Loki woulf suddenly change subjects when talking to Azura. I repeat that the main thing of the paralogue is about Azura denying the rest of the worlds and live in the dream world where everything goes according to what she wants (Which is why Adult Azura wants to convince her to Destroy her dream world.)
      • Speaking of Adult Azura, she recognizes the Dream World she and the Order of Heroes are in as the dream world she once had herself but later destroyed at these timestamps of the video in the OP 3:22, 8:01 (Adult Azura confirms this is another Azura's dream world, so it is not unreasonable to assume her dream world sas also 2-A)
      • Regardless, Low 2-C is incorrect anyways based on the Dream Siblings we see inside of the dream world, which contains Camilla (whose Azura only develops a legit bond in the conquest route.) and both Female and Male Corrin (obviously), which is only possible in at least 2 timelines (Conquest with m/f corrin, birthright with the other) , making it 2-C.

      Even if for slme reason, only 1 out of infinite dream worlds is 2-A, the profile on the wiki also covers what we know about that Young Azura. Which results in at least 2-C, possibly 2-A.

      • We also scale possible characters to other versions of themselves in the wiki, like Rick Sanchez and some Superman."
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    • That's still sounds really iffy. If only one out of an infinite number of dream worlds is 2-A, how are they parallel then. Either their Low 2-C sized each or they're 2-A sized each; it can't be both. And the latter would also assume the FEH Multiverse would Tier 1 structured, which sounds far too assumptive.

      Infinite number of worlds out there confirms the existence of a 2-A Multiverse. But Infinite number of worlds here can still have here referring to the multiverse. I can be on Earth and in the Milky Way Galaxy and the Universe all as the same time due to each being inside the next. The Dream World is still inside the multiverse, so being inside the Dream World doesn't mean they're not inside the multiverse.

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    • Medeus makes sense to me.

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    • "The rest of the Multiverse (Outside the Dream World) has been confirmed 2-A long ago by Griel, Spring Alfonse, Loki, Hel and others. That is not in doubt.

      But Young Azura's Dream World (A separate realm that exists WITHIN the FEH Multiverse also does have a 2-A structure.) Loki stated that there are an infinite amount of worlds inside of the Dream World twice, and the elements present in the paralogue imply that it should be a 2-C structure at the bare mininum if all the dream worlds are not the same for some reason.

      And i must repeat that we do scale parallel versions of characters to one another, like with various Superman and Rick Sanchez, even if just one out of infinite Azura's Dream World is 2-A (for some reason), it should be noted.

      In the timestamps on the previous post, it is proven that Adult Azura recognizes and states that her previous Dream World and Young Azura's are identical, so there is little reason to assume Adult Azura's is 2-C instead of 2-A as well.


      This was released yesterday in book 4, but the order of heroes find themselves trapped in a world of dreams (Yeah, what a coincidence i know), where they are told to sleep within the dream world to reach a world that is within said world to reach the fairy king.

      So the concept of realms within realms is not something unsupported.

      Fiyah Emburem 2-A 2
      Fiyah Emburem 2-A 1
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    • Bump.

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    • What do we need to do here?

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    • The 2-A stuff is being discussed if it's valid or not.

      Anyways, Hans has this to say:

      ""Azura's Dream World tiering to be changed to "2-C, likely 2-A Low Multiverse Level (The Dream World combines multiple timelines into one which also contain elements from the Conquest and Birthright Timelines, alongside Corrins of different worlds), Possibly Multiverse Level+ (Loki stated that the Dream World contains an infinite number of boundless worlds inside of it, which Adult Azura recognized to be identical to her own.)"

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    • Okay.

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    • Looks valid to me.

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    • 2-A looks solid enough for a possible rating at the very least, if not a flat out one.

      I agree.

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    • 2-A seems reasonable

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    • I agree with 2-A.

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    • We preferably need more staff input here. You should ask all of the ones listed in the Fire Emblem verse page to comment here.

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    • I can honestly agree with 2-A under the evidence.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Done.

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    • Thank you.

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    • 2-A looks reasonable with the new evidences.

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    • It looks alright to me

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    • It seems 2-A has been agreed on enought to be applied.

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    • No. Medeus seems to disagree.

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    • Well, he already said that no matter what his way of thinking to this won't change.

      What should be done then?

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    • I doubt Azathoth will respond given that he left, but I still feel he has had the best sense of judgement. I also know Dark649, Reppuzan, and JustSomeWeirdo have been inactive, but their input also would have been good.

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    • I mean, Azzy left before the other FE 2-A stuff and the new stuff was brought up, so that's no longer a quite valid point.

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    • Reppuzan is active at times. You can at least try to ask him, Dark649, and JustSomeWeirdo.

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    • Very well.

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    • This looks good, I agree with this.

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    • Yeah, I agree as well

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    • I have not seen Reppuzan post in ages.

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    • @Ant I already contacted them and no one of them has replied here so far.

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    • Reppuzan was active again very recently.

      In any case, given that Medeus disagrees with this, and the original arguments were presented by a banned troll, you will need to ask other administrators and discussion moderators for input as well, even if they are not familiar with Fire Emblem.

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    • After reading thru the thread, i think it is kinda clear this Loki character is talking about the "Dream World' the young girl azura created, since its the main focus.

      Don't know a lot about Fire Emblem at all other than smash, but if a construct was stated to have infinite timelines inside it twice, it is 2-A.

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      Went ahead and asked some of the admins, I would also ask discussion mods, but I don't want to disturb everyone that much

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    • Okay.

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    • So I'm mostly just going to comment on the evidence provided in the OP, as that's the only context that it gives me in regards to this.

      Taking the dialogue as objective fact at face value, nothing in the dialogue implies, let alone objectively confirms, that the characters are talking about alternate universes. The best statement is that there are "infinite worlds", although this could simply mean that the dream is an infinite universe with infinite worlds inside of it. 

      I'm being very generous in the above paragraph though - a lot seems to be left out here. Maybe it's because the OP and supporters are just assuming the people vetting this thread are already familiar with the verse, but most of the admins called here don't seem to have such knowledge. So, I'd like a few things to be substantiated with evidence for more context:

      • What makes each of these individual characters aware of the exact nature of the dream world they're in, and how can some of them possibly understand that there's an infinite number of 'worlds'? What says that they don't know an exact number of worlds, and are saying 'infinite' because they've personally seen no end to the number of them?
      • I'm unsure what makes this feat 2-A or even Low 2-C. Regular humans in, say, the Matrix, are not labelled as Tier 2 for existing above a digital universe/world, so I'm genuinely wondering what makes a world being part of someone's dream at that tier. I'm aware we've had discussions on layered realities and dream worlds previously, and from my understanding of them there's attributes that distinguish between Matrix-like scenarios and Azatoth-like scenarios. Inception might be a better comparison, are regular humans in that movie Tier 2 as well?
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    • Thank you for helping out Dargoo. It is very appreciated.

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    • Hans created an entire blog for this stuff, it may be a good idea to take a look This replies to all the questions you have, Dargoo.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Hans created an entire blog for this stuff, it may be a good idea to take a lookThis replies to all the questions you have, Dargoo.

      So I'm just going to start with the first bit on there.

      You seem to be drawing conclusions that aren't supported by your evidence. You never seemed to adress that "world" is reffering to universes in the slightest, and didn't really consider the possibility that 'world' was reffering to planets within other universes. Your conclusion seems to mostly draw from one statement only:

      "from another world. You could consider her just one possibility"

      Although you're kind of conflating two separate thoughts here. 'She's from another world' and 'she's just one possibility' most likely means she's from the same planet in a different timeline, and this timeline is one possibility of many.

      So I fail to see how these feats are Tier 2 given your explanation blog. A vital part of Tier 2 statistics is destroying the space-time continuum of entire universes, while these quotes are not establishing that they are reffering to entire universes.

      Additionally, linguistically, even assuming the terms were being used in the way you say they are being used, a 2-3 characters using a word a certain way does not mean that every other character is using the word in the same way. 'World' is such a flexible word that can be applied to so many concepts that if you sort of need to establish that the relevant quotes you use later on are specifically referring to universes.

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    • It's been discussed multiple times in other threads, but the various "Worlds" in Fire Emblem Heroes are consistently described and shown to be alternate timelines. But, I don't remember the full details and I'm a bit too tied up to dig through the previous threads.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      It's been discussed multiple times in other threads, but the various "Worlds" in Fire Emblem Heroes are consistently described and shown to be alternate timelines.

      And the three-four scans I was linked that supports that claim doesn't actually prove that, so if you have anything substantial to add I'm all ears.

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    • Bump.

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    • Okay I've been gone for a hot minute, what's been decided on?

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    • JustSomeWeirdo wrote:
      Okay I've been gone for a hot minute, what's been decided on?

      Nothing so far, agreement to 2-A is all that's missing now.

      What do you think?

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    • Bump

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    • Didn't Dargoo reject this?

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    • My issue is more with the justifications of the cosmology blog itself (I feel like the evidence doesn't add up with the conclusions at all) that leads to the conclusions of the OP here, although I'm currently discussing the matter offsite with the original author of that blog. Said discussion is on pause for now though until I'm done implementing revisions with Prototype.

      So I rejected this in a roundabout way I guess, although that roundabout way would also reject the current statistics on a lot of the FEH profiles that are currently up.

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    • Okay. Thank you for helping out.

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    • I guess for now we should wait for Dargoo overall in that case.

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    • I suppose so.

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    • I’m fine with you guys discussing this in the context that the cosmology blog is correct for now, as I’d rather not put a hold on this revision indefinitely if I end up getting busy down the line.

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    • Well, there's really not much to discuss, everyone else but DDM disagreed with the changes.

      So really, the only thing missing would be your input Dargoo.

      This can wait, just don't forget about it after your other pending revisions, okay?

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    • Yeah, no worries. I have an actual queue now, after Prototype it's MtG, after that it's likely SCP, after that I'll try and fit in this.

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    • Very well, thanks.

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    • Thank you for helping out.

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    • I still think that it is 2-A since after buying an account and playing the game, the characters *continously* use the term World to refer to timelines. 

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    • "I agree with Dream World Azura being 2-A. It is stated that there are infinite timelies in the dream world twice."

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    • Why the quotations?

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    • Well, from what i've seen, most still agree with 2-A Azura, at least just in her Dream World version with a clear cut 2-A creation feat.

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    • Like I said earlier I'm totally fine with continuing this CRT independent of my opinion; my issues are with larger cosmology stuff on the blog that's technically already accepted.

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    • Well, as said before, input has been given already and everyone but DDM is fine with 2-A, there's really nothing else to discuss beyond maybe just taking the revisions as fine for now and change the profile accordingly.

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    • Sounds good to me. The majority and a knowledgable member agree witth the tiering upgrade.

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    • Quick question from someone with no knowledge of this, what makes this dreams real and not unquantifiable fiction?

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    • From what i've read, Shareena pinches her cheek in the dream world and said it hurt (To kinda express it is a real realm), and Adult Azura was forcefully BFR'd and is also aware of herself in this other Azura's dream. Loki is also inside the dream trying to convince Young Azura to join up with her.  Yeah, here is the script. https://fireemblem.fandom.com/wiki/Adrift/Script


      • Azura: I...remember this world. It was a long time ago. I saw it in a dream... I was a child, so I don't remember it very well. I am sure, however, that this is the same world I dreamt.
      • Sharena: That you dreamt? Meaning...what? That we're in your dream right now? Ouch! Well, it hurts when I pinch myself.
      • Azura: Even so...
      • Alfonse: If it is as you say and it's a dream, whose is it? Is it your dream, Azura, that we have been pulled into?
      • Anna: I find it strange. I am completely aware of myself. If I'm in someone else's dream, how can that be?
      • Azura: I don't understand it either. I do have some dragon's blood in my veins. And that dragon had the power to glimpse the strands of futures yet to come... Maybe that has something to do with it.
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    • Bad answer, I will elaborate why later.

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    • I am confused about what you meant by that, but i found some more statements about it.

      • Loki: You, cocooned away inside your current self, growing peacefully... I would call that a miracle. How many times would the coins have to come up tails to satisfy you? Once might not be enough for you, I know. But we're talking about time stretching out to infinity... It would happen again and again and again... And in the future, more and more of you might come to exist...an infinite number of you.
      • Azura (Young): Who says that time is infinite? The world could end.
      • Loki: Hee-hee. What you say is true. But this world contains an infinite number of worlds within it... And if the world has no bounds, we can toss coins for eternity.

      Azura: Deep inside my heart...I wanted to run from it all. And then I had a dream... Brothers and sisters who stood up for me, friends who understood my pain... Everyone could feel what I was going through. Life was suddenly easy. That world I wished for...I think we might be there right now.

      --------

      • Loki: Azura, what is it that you desire? Tell me—anything you want. Any wish can become real.
      • Azura (Young): ...
      • Loki: There is an infinite number of worlds here, my dear... Any world you can conceive of must exist. You can summon any version of yourself that you desire. All you have to do is listen to one little request of mine. It isn't much...
      • Azura (Young): ...
      • Loki: With your blood and my power... Everything will be just as we wish it... Azura. Tell me what it is that you desire...
      • Azura (Young): I want...a flying ship. I'll fly away with everyone. We can go wherever we like. Nothing bad will happen...

      • Loki: And that's that, I suppose. Oh well. We have eternity to play...
      • Alfonse: So this was all your doing. You lured in a child! What's your game, Loki?
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    • As I see it, this all seems like a product of Immersion, creating the setting, getting real harm inside it and stuff there interacting with the real world are all things that absolutely apply to that power without giving any significant tier. If anything some of the things Leon Help4 pointed out help to support this

      • Azula doesn't much know what's going on.
      • People hurt themselves to test the reality in which they are.
      • Azula speculates her dream to have something to do with the power to glimpse the strands of futures yet to come, which sounds like Precognition, which in turn would make things just as fake (the glimpse of the future=/=the future itself, at all).
      • Loki telling Azula that she cocooned away inside her current self.

      Before someone may say that since this is a super big dream it should give a real tier, that doesn't hold any water. A lot of settings people creates with Immersion are also pretty big, they have suns, stars and even other universe, having a certain specifically big size doesn't make fiction any more than fiction because that's not how logic works.

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    • Eficiente does have a good point.

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    • Idk if Azula applies to the new Reality Equalization page, but from what I see here and what I remember from the other thread where Azzy was, she seems pretty normal in reality and with big feats in fiction that should only apply to her there.

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    • Yeah, I agree that she's only Tier 2 in her own Dream World. Plus her Dream World simply appears to just be one of many worlds and thus only qualifies as Low 2-C at best.

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    • Thats wrong Medeus.

      The dream world itself was stated twice to contain infimite other worlds inside itself. There being other Azuras that can summon other dream worlds is not an argument nor goes against this being a 2-A creation feat.

      In short: immersion/there being multiple azuras does not even relate to the realms being 2-A or Low 2-C, its literally a causation fallacy

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    • Camilla: We must retreat for now. Oh, my sweet Azura, I apologize.

      Azura: Azura? It is as I suspected. This world is the world of my dreams. I must put an end to it.

      Sharena: Azura! Wait for us! We'll go with you!

      The first point of the "immersion" argument is wrong since many statements on the script clearly show Adult Azura knowing exsctly what was happening after realizig it was the same fantasy realm she once created for herself in the past. Also, Adult azura only especulates that her blood could be the reason of this power, not that this is a future vision or construct (which does not contradict 2-A), it would also imply space-time manipulation on this scale for the cast if that is the case. Which is not since the entire point of the dream world is that it is a *lie*/*fantasy* different from the real world outside Young Azura (Two Corrins, Camilla and Mikoto sharing a home, the statements of them being constructed only to protect young azura, etc. Which is not accurate to either Azura's future.)

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    • I agree with Medeus

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    • I’m still more inclined to agree with the 2-A Azura stance myself.

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    • 2-A as of now still makes more sense to me.

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    • I think Medeus makes the most sense.

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    • How so? Explain why.

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    • Agreed. Medeus makes the most sense

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    • I also think that Medeus makes sense.

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    • Will anyone adress that there is no relation between the number of Azuras and the realms being Low 2-C or 2-A or the two statements that the dream world is a 2-A construct?

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    • bump

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    • Bumping this to avoid it being lost

      This should be concluded soon forum move and all.

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    • It doesn't seem like this will be accepted.

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    • A FANDOM user
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