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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    09:11, December 21, 2019

    We've been waiting for this one for quite a while.

    Sonic standing in front of the fire.








    Preface

    Everyone is tired of the toxic bullshit that starts in every single Sonic thread. We’re all bound to disagree: typically, the community and the moderators do. But this doesn’t mean anyone should become hostile. Everyone’s input is valuable: don’t force the staff to make a staff only thread and take away everyone else’s free speech because you get bent out of shape over of someone’s beliefs. Whether you think it’s wank or downplay, we all just want to agree in the end, so don’t ruin civil discussion for anyone else.

    Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people. Nobody cares about what evidence you have proving someone is a dickhead. Keep it to yourself, because it has no place in a fictional discussion thread on the internet.

    And remember, that’s exactly what this is. Just a discussion about fiction.

    The Power of a Single Chaos Emerald

    Currently we have a single Chaos Emerald at 5-B+. This is because of a calc where restoring the energy into a single Chaos Emerald shifted an entire continent. DMUA accepted the low-end, so this is useable.

    Furthermore, the other feat we have a single Chaos Emerald’s power is when one was used by Dr. Eggman to split the entirety of the planet into several pieces.

    We already agreed with Planetary ratings for a single Chaos Emerald, so this is basically just review.

    Classic Characters

    Rather than what exact tier each character has, we need to know why, and what the status is of our tiering. I’ll be covering things I feel should be added here as well.

    Classic Sonic can defeat a machine made by Eggman that’s powered by a single Chaos Emerald. He can also defeat many enemies in Sonic the Fighters amplified by their power. We know this because every single time an enemy is ever defeated, they lose a Chaos Emerald they had on hand. Furthermore, all characters in the franchise are shown to exploit the power of the Emeralds when they bring them into combat.

    If you doubt the consistency of this, every single character in Sonic the Fighters can run the Sonic the Fighters gauntlet and defeat everybody amped by a single Chaos Emerald each. It’s clear a single Classic character scales to a single Chaos Emerald, which, as we’ve covered, is Planet level+. It also makes sense to have these guys in the same tier as modern characters, just a bit apart.

    Death Egg Robot

    The Death Egg Robot is Eggman's strawng boy that appears to get clapped in most retro games. Pretty much typically when the Death Egg Robot is destroyed, the Death Egg starts falling apart and explodes. From this we can draw that the Death Egg Robot supports it, since the Death Egg can't function and literally falls apart without it. The Death Egg is stated numerous times to be planetary, making the Death Egg Robot in turn planetary. The Death Egg Robot can also consistently be defeated by Sonic in the Classic/Transition Era, so this is just further evidence of Classic Sonic being 5-B.

    Egg Dragoon

    Dark Gaia is capable of pulling the same planet-splitting feat from Sonic Unleashed that was calc’ed at 7.2 yottatons.

    The Egg Dragoon is made with Dark Gaia’s energy, and Sonic is capable of defeating it in Sonic Generations.

    Negative Chaos Energy

    Whenever the Negative Chaos Energy is drained from the Chaos Emeralds, it turns them gray. We know this because of what Tails states in Sonic Adventure.

    Thus, when Sonic has the energy sapped out of him in Sonic Unleashed, we know the beam Eggman fires is powered by Negative Chaos Energy, as the Chaos Emeralds are gray. The beam created a blast of 7.2 yottatons.

    However, there is also a weapon called the Eclipse Cannon in the verse. This was created with the negative intention to destroy the planet, and it is powered by Chaos Emeralds, so we understand this is powered by Negative Chaos Energy. The Eclipse Cannon can pierce through stars, which has been calc’ed at 3.736 ninatons.

    Perfect Chaos

    Sonic was unable to defeat Perfect Chaos in his own base form during Sonic Adventure. This is further proved by the scaling in this thread, because Classic Sonic scales to a single Chaos Emerald’s rating of 5-B, and Adventure Sonic isn’t too far ahead of that whereas Perfect Chaos had Negative Chaos Energy, which is 3.736 ninatons as shown above.

    However, Sonic is getting more powerful every second, and he uses this to his advantage when he surpasses Perfect Chaos and can even defeat him in his base form during Sonic Generations. Furthermore, in that fight he has to run inside Perfect Chaos to damage him directly, and Chaos (along with all of his forms) is made of raw energy, meaning Sonic would have to be running through all of that powerful Negative Chaos Energy and not feel a thing.

    This would mean Sonic scales above Negative Chaos Energy.

    5-A Super forms

    This needs to be removed.

    Ultimately the idea of Large Planet level Super forms says that at their weakest they could still defeat Dark Gaia, who scales to the 7.2 yottaton feat. Super Sonic also defeated a lot of enemies with Planetary statements/feats.

    However, the Chaos Emeralds weren’t at their weakest. They had all just been recharged to their peaks, and even shifted entire continents upon awakening. How would they be weak when they’ve been restored to their prime? The entire plot of the game was getting the Chaos Emeralds recharged, and that’s exactly what happened.

    The very moment Super Sonic went in at Dark Gaia for an attack, he one-shot him. The Gaia Colossus had just attacked Dark Gaia, yes, but it also struggled against the latter throughout the fight, and needed Sonic’s help to break its bonds.

    In fact, any situation Super Sonic has been whipped out on an enemy with no tier 2 feats, he stomped them. Tier 5 for the Super forms just doesn’t work.

    Counter Arguments

    “Dark Gaia caused the 7.2 yottaton feat”

    No he didn’t. It was a direct effect of the beam Eggman fired at Earth. We even see Dark Gaia slowly coming out as the planet comes apart before him, and he’s not even interacting with it. The planet only split after Eggman had fired the beam, it was a direct effect of Negative Chaos Energy. When miniature Dark Gaia came out, all he did was spread his ghastly powers all over the planet and make everyone sad.

    “The Eclipse Cannon piercing stars is a mistranslation of Hoshi, which can be better translated as planet”


    That’s not true. Even the English localization had piercing stars as the main idea for the Eclipse Cannon. The statements about destroying the planet aren’t saying that’s its peak potential, they’re saying the planet is in danger because the Eclipse Cannon is capable of doing that.

    Conclusion

    • Classic Sonic (and characters that scale) should be 5-B+ (1.4090735898661726 yottatons) due to scaling to a single Chaos Emerald
    • Transition/Adventure/Second Transition Era characters 5-B+ (1.4090735898661726 yottatons) due to being above Classic characters and scaling to multiple Chaos Emeralds
    • Modern Sonic (and characters that scale) should be 5-A (3.736 ninatons) due to defeating the Egg Dragoon and Perfect Chaos
    • Modern Sonic (currently), Infinite, the Phantom Ruby Death Egg Robot and the Custom Hero should be 5-A (unknown, above 3.736 ninatons) due to Infinite stomping Sonic in his first interaction, but Sonic after growth can defeat him, and the other two characters scale
    • 5-A Super forms should not exist
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    • I agree with this.

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    • This will be fun...

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    • I 100% percent agree.







      on removing 5-A super forms, dont care for the rest tbh.

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    • Marx soul death scream

      MFW I know I'm going to be spending large amounts of time arguing with DDM and Cal over this

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    • I also agree with this.

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    • If it wasn't obvious by my previous post, I agree. And hopefully I'm wrong and DDM and Cal agree for the sake of my sanity

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    • Ok DDM, Matt, and Cal. Come on out and face us.

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    • Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Mfw you guys already did this three times :<

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    • I KNOW this thread will turn into a disaster

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    • Wait isn’t the Death Egg smaller the Angel Island since it got stuck on its volcano? 

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    • Sorry about that. Don't mean to seem like a dick, but we're probably in for the long haul. And this just had to be made on the last day of Thanksgiving Break...

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    • Genericstickman wrote:
      Wait isn’t the Death Egg smaller the Angel Island since it got stuck on its volcano? 

      The Death Egg isn't the size of the planet, it has the ability to destroy a planet.

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    • Small correction.

      5-B+ starts at 1.5 Yottatons. The reason they're 5-B+ is because they scale far above that feat due to beating up to Chaos 4.

      Unless they show a sort of increase in power or a fight that a character stomped another, they'd only be .1 Yottatons away from 5-B+

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    • this looks acceptable

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    • No need for the provoking... I was actually gonna ignore this until I saw my name be outright mentioned.

      100% against classic scaling, as well as removing 5-A low end (you can’t have your cake and eat it too with the variable tier. If you want to keep your tier 2 high end, you’ll keep your tier 5 low end.)

      Still fully believe he “getting stronger every second” is hyperbolic as well.

      Everything else can be discussed.

      Also, major kudos to Darksspine for his reminder in the OP. No matter what, this is just fiction. We’re better than causing strife over what amounts to entertainment. These characters were made to bring joy, and we’re doing them poor if we bring the exact opposite for something they were never intended for. I know I’m far from innocent from that, and because of that, I apologize to each and every one of you for any racket I caused in the past, from Shake to User to Void. Just because we disagree on how strong a fictional character is doesn’t mean we can’t get along. That’s childish af, and as growing adolescents/young adults, we’re better than that.

      ...that said I still disagree with the things I said.

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    • @Cal

      I too am sorry with what I've said to you in the past.

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    • 100% against classic scaling

      Mind explaining why? I gave pretty good reasoning here.

      as well as removing 5-A low end (you can’t have your cake and eat it too with the variable tier. If you want to keep your tier 2 high end, you’ll keep your tier 5 low end.)

      Except I explained why the variable power doesn't apply here. Super Sonic one-shot him. We don't make other characters variable for feats on a far lower tier, do we?

      Still fully believe he “getting stronger every second” is hyperbolic as well.

      What? The characters consistently make observations about his power, he stated it himself that he gets stronger over time, it's shown in the scaling, they literally recorded data on him and compared it, etc. It's not hyperbolic.

      Regardless, major kudos to you too Cal for accepting and apologizing. Even if you were right, it takes a real man to do that.

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    • First of all, major kudos to Cal for what he said. The only way to do things is with facts and kindness. Take away one, and you don't have a strong argument to be had that has everyone in mind. This is how things should be, regardless of how much one may disagree with another. Well said, Cal, well f'ing said.

      Only thing I'm gonna comment on that Darksspine already mentioned is that Sonic has been consistently noted to get stronger throughout many of his games. Be it from Chronicles, to Rivals, to Battle, to Colors, to Forces. He's in no short supply of statements of him getting stronger over time. Dare I say it's kinda common.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Also, major kudos to Darksspine for his reminder in the OP. No matter what, this is just fiction. We’re better than causing strife over what amounts to entertainment. These characters were made to bring joy, and we’re doing them poor if we bring the exact opposite for something they were never intended for. I know I’m far from innocent from that, and because of that, I apologize to each and every one of you for any racket I caused in the past, from Shake to User to Void. Just because we disagree on how strong a fictional character is doesn’t mean we can’t get along. That’s childish af, and as growing adolescents/young adults, we’re better than that.

      ...that said I still disagree with the things I said.

      I know some people alreafy said that, but kudos to you for apologizing and trying to keep the thread positive Cal.


      However, I disagree with your reasoning with 5-A Super Sonic (Why 2-C Super Sonic has anything to do with the 5-A end?)

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    • Because Super Sonic doesn't have variable power that makes him equal with Dark Gaia, the 5-A end shouldn't exist when he stomped w/ 2-C power.

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    • Darksspine wrote:
      Because Super Sonic doesn't have variable power that makes him equal with Dark Gaia, the 5-A end shouldn't exist when he stomped w/ 2-C power.

      In "has anything to do with 2-C Sonic" I meant "why removing 5-A super sonic = removing 2-C sonic as well"

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    • I agree as well with OP, 5-A should be removed because there isn't a actual 5-A feat to scale, nothing to do with variable

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      I agree as well with OP, 5-A should be removed because there isn't a actual 5-A feat to scale, nothing to do with variable

      You're talking about Super Sonic not being 5-A right?

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    • Yes

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    • ShakeResounding
      ShakeResounding removed this reply because:
      .
      21:50, December 2, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Darksspine wrote:
      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Furthermore, don’t throw any insults or slight shade such as targeting specific people.

      Mfw you guys already did this three times :<

      Yeah we're all a bunch of assholes aren't we?

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      I know I’m far from innocent from that, and because of that, I apologize to each and every one of you for any racket I caused in the past, from Shake to User to Void. Just because we disagree on how strong a fictional character is doesn’t mean we can’t get along. That’s childish af, and as growing adolescents/young adults, we’re better than that.

      DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!!!! (Go to 1:08)

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    • Isn't the egg dragoon scaling basically that he's gotten stronger via him fighting something his stronger Werehog form contended against and just doing it via in base?

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    • Yeah. And he kinda thrashed it at that.

      That's another thing. I'm assuming that when we use the Werehog, we're using it as how it was? Or do we treat it as "Base Sonic but stronger"? I've heard conflicting opinions about this from everybody.

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    • Also to Cal, another planet level feat for Classic Sonic is him defeating the Egg Robot in S3&K who was equipped with the Master Emerald. Just to add on to that. And 5-A Supers shouldn't exist since 4-A is the supposed low end. Literally the only 5-A feats Super Sonic has was defeating Perfect Chaos, Biolizard, and Dark Gaia. Darksspine explained the Dark Gaia situation already, Biolizard was stomped already, and Perfect Chaos got defeated by Base Sonic years later.

      And Sonic does get stronger over time which is what the statement he said in Forces meant. He defeated Ultimate Emerl who had all 7 Chaos Emeralds and was proven to be a Super Sonic level threat at the time, Shadow said he's gotten stronger after his fight in Chronicles, and in Generations he defeated Perfect Chaos without his Super form (which everyone generally thinks he's gotten stronger because of that fight), Egg Dragoon without his Werehog form which is supposedly stronger than his Base form, and the Egg Emperor without Tails or Knuckles (I mean he used his boost to fly through each section on that stage).

      To say Sonic never gets stronger every second as if he doesn't train or improve himself is very untrue.

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    • Mephistus wrote:
      Isn't the egg dragoon scaling basically that he's gotten stronger via him fighting something his stronger Werehog form contended against and just doing it via in base?

      Base Sonic literally dismantled it and torn it apart. And he CLEARLY didn't break a sweat. Not to mention jokes about it after the fight to his Classic self.

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    • Something or someone powered by a single emerald should not be 5-B+. 5 emeralds did this, not that I don't agree with 5-B+ but it's clear that 5-B+ isn't the least they can output. Remember the emeralds vary and putting all single emerald scaling at 5-B+ is like making every single Super Form 2-C. So I disagree with 5-B Classics for 'that' reason. I have other reasons for 5-B Classic Era REEEEEEEEEEEE</s>

      Also I think the low end for Supers should be high 4-C due to the star level statement from the Eclipse cannon and the Nega Wisp calc, which would scale to Mother Wisp. 

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    • We already discussed that was a warning shot, it wasn't a full power, they vary but have a minumum

      I don't think a warning shot would debunk any of the current scaling, especialy since a machine would use a emerald worse than a actual being

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    • I agree  especially with Classic Characters scaling, I never believed they where THAT much weaker than the Modern Characters.

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    • Stop bringing up the 6-B feat, because one emerald could also repel the Low 2-C Time Eater. We can do this both ways, fellas.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: Stop bringing up the 6-B feat, because one emerald could also repel the Low 2-C Time Eater. We can do this both ways, fellas.

      But can you do it...all day?

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    • Also Zamasu is right in one aspect.

      Chaos Emeralds are > Hyper-Go-On, which generated a 18.08 Foe singularity. They aren't inferior to that if they're consistently stated to be the most powerful things in the universe. Them being below H-G-O makes no sense.

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    • MYHERO wrote:

      ShakeResounding wrote: Stop bringing up the 6-B feat, because one emerald could also repel the Low 2-C Time Eater. We can do this both ways, fellas.

      But can you do it...all day?

      Maaaaaaybe OvO

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: Stop bringing up the 6-B feat, because one emerald could also repel the Low 2-C Time Eater. We can do this both ways, fellas.

      They vary, that’s why it repealed the Time Eater. The 6-B feat being a warning shot doesn’t really disprove anything because that’s the lowest feat. If a warning shot was that easy they could’ve just used 1 emerald.

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    • It kinda does tho.

      It was a warning shot harnessed by a piece of machinery with several Emeralds, when even one in the hands of someone like Shadow is far greater due to being able to harmess it's "full power". And no, a single Emerald is not Low 2-C. That's a massive outlier like the 6-B feat being a massive inconsistency in display of power on the opposite end of the spectrum. Otherwise we have Low 2-C Base Cast, which is a hell to the no.

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    • By the looks of it, you’re trying to disprove a variable tier, so why is 'outlier' such a big deal now? Also a warning shot doesn’t always mean you’re making your attacks weaker. The actual meaning for warning shot is purposely misfiring your attack just to show your target what you’re capable of.

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    • Eggman used a machine to break apart the world into 7 using 1 emerald already as said in OP so, yes, it would've been that easy if it was fired with the intent to destroy the planet, not unlike the warning shot before it. The warning shot only had the opportunity when the emeralds were collected and brought on board so there never was an opportunity where they had 4 or less emeralds already on board in which they could've fired prematurely during Shadow the Hedgehog. This is a red herring since the intent of the shot was not to blow up the forking planet, only intimidate mankind, burden of proof falls on you to prove that it was intended to have such a higher effect.

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    • I agree with Zamasu Chan that the Emeralds are variable. One emerald shouldn't be compareable to the amount of Hyper-Go-On power that created the tier 4 feat, at least not consistantly.

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote: By the looks of it, you’re trying to disprove a variable tier, so why is 'outlier' such a big deal now? Also a warning shot doesn’t always mean you’re making your attacks weaker. The actual meaning for warning shot is purposely misfiring your attack just to show your target what you’re capable of.

      One Chaos Emerald is not Tier 2. That's what I'm arguing is an outlier.

      Otherwise, as I've said, you get Low 2-C Base cast via Shadow harnessing the "full power" of his Emerald. Never did I ever say anything about Emeralds not being variable either. I even argued that they were variable before with you to top it all off.

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    • Mephistus wrote: Eggman used a machine to break apart the world into 7 using 1 emerald already as said in OP so, yes, it would've been that easy if it was fired with the intent to destroy the planet, not unlike the warning shot before it. The warning shot only had the opportunity when the emeralds were collected and brought on board so there never was an opportunity where they had 4 or less emeralds already on board in which they could've fired prematurely during Shadow the Hedgehog. This is a red herring since the intent of the shot was not to blow up the forking planet, only intimidate mankind, burden of proof falls on you to prove that it was intended to have such a higher effect.

      True, but you’d still have to consider that the moon feat is technically A low 5-B one, due to your corrections of the feat. The moon has no relevance to Eggman so blowing it up wasn’t his concern. So that’s another lower feat.

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    • I agree with OP.

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    • Just fyi, the "correction" i did for this  i dont actually agree fully with due to it being an egregious low end. The distance the moon chunks were cleared should be much higher than what i posted since the debris was moved and cleared well past just the depth of the cap it created and you can see the timeframe i used and the position of the last bit of debris at that time being far past the crater top. The KE could def be in 5-A range due to the moon chunks speed being much higher in that case if it ever got recalced by me.

      I don't really see the point in doing it if the moon boom calc still abuses it being mostly off-screen so that's still a downplay on the speed aspect for KE regardless of what gets calced, and that Eggman could succ that much energy out of an emerald for the Advance opening just fine leaves not much little room for doubt that it should be that level via AP anyway, let alone the fact that area of effect was, in that case, is blatently disregarded since a good percentage part of the moon was intact while a section was blasted away at high speed.   

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    • 5 emeralds did this, not that I don't agree with 5-B+ but it's clear that 5-B+ isn't the least they can output.

      We're not scaling the Classics to their lowest feat, we're scaling them to what tier they should rightfully be. 5 Chaos Emeralds, if we assume one to be Planet level, can still perform a Country level feat. It's not like it's the peak of their power, and that feat was simply done to set an example iirc.

      Also I think the low end for Supers should be high 4-C due to the star level statement from the Eclipse cannon and the Nega Wisp calc, which would scale to Mother Wisp. 

      The Eclipse Cannon isn't High 4-C, if you'd read the full OP you'd know that it was evaluated as 5-A.

      Also, High 4-C is a supporting feat for Mother Wisp, she can still scale to the 4-A end of Super Sonic.

      Stop bringing up the 6-B feat, because one emerald could also repel the Low 2-C Time Eater

      Low 2-C's not a good example of AP, because it's mainly in the hax of the Chaos Emeralds to repel evil forces, and their hax are already 4D.

      They vary, that’s why it repealed the Time Eater.

      Again, no it isn't. It's in their nature to repel dark forces. We see that when they automatically vaporize storms in Sonic Chaos, when the Master Emerald restored the entire planet by itself in Sonic Advance 3, when the Chaos Emeralds made Mephiles' shady goop disappear in Sonic 06 and when they repelled Time Eater.

      Chaos Emeralds already warp space-time, which is 4D. Them using more 4D hax isn't a shocker.

      The 6-B feat being a warning shot doesn’t really disprove anything because that’s the lowest feat. If a warning shot was that easy they could’ve just used 1 emerald.

      The point of a warning shot is to not cause lots of damage. They had already set up the 5 Chaos Emeralds regardless, there's no point in saying they should've used one when it's already amped by 5.

      By the looks of it, you’re trying to disprove a variable tier, so why is 'outlier' such a big deal now?

      If you don't want a variable tier, you want an exact rating, which is where the term "outlier" would be useful. This is a bad point.

      Also a warning shot doesn’t always mean you’re making your attacks weaker. The actual meaning for warning shot is purposely misfiring your attack just to show your target what you’re capable of.

      This is also not true. A warning shot in this context means that "I can do worse, because this is just a fraction of what I can do." There's no solid definition of a warning shot, so you can't say it's misfiring something. Within this context, it's a fraction of capability meant to instill fear in others.

      We already settled this in another thread. Stop backtracking and causing ad nauseum when there's nothing more to contribute.

      True, but you’d still have to consider that the moon feat is technically A low 5-B one, due to your corrections of the feat. The moon has no relevance to Eggman so blowing it up wasn’t his concern. So that’s another lower feat.

      Imagine that! You can have lower tier feats but still have higher power ratings? And that the authors aren't going to show off something's full potential every single time it does something? That's crazy!

      Even if higher amounts caused lesser events, that in no regard contradicts a single Chaos Emerald consistently having Planetary abilities. The logical definition of "consistent" is that multiple premises can be true at the same time, and you can have lower feats and that not ruin your consistency.

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    • I’m fine with 5-B+ tho, so have at it. I still think the low end should be high 4-C likely 4-A.

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    • High 4-C was from a random Wisp who the Mother Wisp would already be superior to, there's no need to lowball it

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    • Thinking isn't an argument, it's an opinion.

      4-A is the low-end, 2-C is the high-end. 5-A for Modern, 5-B for Classic.

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    • Darksspine wrote:

      4-A is the low-end, 2-C is the high-end. 5-A for Modern, 5-B for Classic.

      This seems fine to me based on the evidences

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    • Agreed

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    • Agree w/ OP

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    • I disagree with removing Tier 5, i'd rather put a "varies" stand point to make it less...... whatever this is, it's more practical and much easier, there's more evidence for a "varies" then removing a statistic, because if we go this route, it goes in and someone brings the 5-A things we have already pre-revision and i'm gonna guess the positives we got is put down for nothing.

      and btw I somewhat agree with OP.

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    • Even then, Supers shouldn't be below High 4-C anyways due to being > one random wisp.

      Which is a supporting feat in itself for the Mother Wisp being 4-A.

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    • The removed 5-A is from super forms, it's pointless, redudant, and there's no actual feats of it

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    • I looked over this and some of you guys are staying assuming and capping S**t, there is no years in sonic lmfao, he's still 15-16, Cream is still 6, etc. these events happen in days/weeks/months. 

      Dark Gaia is too slept on in the debating community

      Dark Gaia is the one that clapped Super Sonic to werehog state, the chaos emeralds was conjunctured with Super Sonic's power and it merely woke the Dark Gaia up from Slumber and nothing more even the guide states it https://info.sonicretro.org/images/thumb/8/8c/SonicUnleashed_Prima_digital_guide.pdf/page5-661px-SonicUnleashed_Prima_digital_guide.pdf.jpg

      this is post 06, sonic's planned date with amy was supposed to happen before the events of black knight which is a sequel to secret rings which takes place after 06

      along with the fact that in Japanese, Dark Gaia was stated by Pickle to be Ripping the planet and it's "will" apart by existing. hence it's extremely passive.

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    • Uhhh relax a little?

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    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      Something or someone powered by a single emerald should not be 5-B+. 5 emeralds did this, not that I don't agree with 5-B+ but it's clear that 5-B+ isn't the least they can output. Remember the emeralds vary and putting all single emerald scaling at 5-B+ is like making every single Super Form 2-C. So I disagree with 5-B Classics for 'that' reason. I have other reasons for 5-B Classic Era REEEEEEEEEEEE</s>

      Also I think the low end for Supers should be high 4-C due to the star level statement from the Eclipse cannon and the Nega Wisp calc, which would scale to Mother Wisp. 

      The Emeralds powers vary. One instance they do a 6-B warning shot, the next they can pull in an entire continent that was calced to be 5-B, and they can repel a hit from the Time Eater and they were dormant in time. Classic Characters shouldn't even be that much weaker than their modern counterparts any way except a few moves they haven't learned yet.

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    • @Imagine Don't derail please. This is focusing on the Base Cast, not any deities within Sonic. If the time comes to tackle that later, then we deal with it then. But not now.

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      derailed lol
      19:18, December 2, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • But consistently, One Chaos Emerald has performed more Tier 5 feats than Tier 6 or Tier 2 feats. Hence why any argument that the Emeralds displayed powers greater or weaker than Tier 5 is moot since all of this has to do with consistency.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      @Imagine Don't derail please. This is focusing on the Base Cast, not any deities within Sonic. If the time comes to tackle that later, then we deal with it then. But not now.

      alright.

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    • I wouldn't be against Dark Gaia being higher than he currentely is

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    • Bump!

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    •  i'd rather put a "varies" stand point to make it less...... whatever this is, it's more practical and much easier, there's more evidence for a "varies" then removing a statistic

      Actually, no there isn't. When any 5-A argument for Supers comes from a fight where the Super form stomped and a false assumption that the Chaos Emeralds were somehow weakened, no where does 5-A pop up as a tier for the Super forms. The variable tier is alright if it's from tier 4 to 2, but tier 5 for the Supers is absolutely not viable.

      I looked over this and some of you guys are staying assuming and capping S**t, there is no years in sonic lmfao, he's still 15-16, Cream is still 6, etc. these events happen in days/weeks/months. 

      This is irrelevant, and thus a red herring fallacy.

      Dark Gaia is the one that clapped Super Sonic to werehog state

      What the hell are you even saying?

      the chaos emeralds was conjunctured with Super Sonic's power and it merely woke the Dark Gaia up from Slumber and nothing more even the guide states it

      Yeah, no one's arguing against the Chaos Emeralds waking up Dark Gaia. However, it wasn't Super Sonic's power, it was the Negative Chaos Energy from the Chaos Emeralds.

      along with the fact that in Japanese, Dark Gaia was stated by Pickle to be Ripping the planet and it's "will" apart by existing. hence it's extremely passive.

      How is this relevant in a Sonic upgrade thread? This is for the base cast, if you want to address Dark Gaia's tier make a CRT involving it.

      Uhhh relax a little?

      Don't know who this is directed at, but comments like these are personal imperatives and are what cause threads to go toxic. Please, if you have anything you want to say to someone personally, don't say it on the thread.

      The Emeralds powers vary. One instance they do a 6-B warning shot, the next they can pull in an entire continent that was calced to be 5-B, and they can repel a hit from the Time Eater and they were dormant in time.

      That's not an example of variation. The warning shot is meant to be weak, not to be their actual power. Their 5-B feats by themselves are what count. Repelling the Time Eater is hax as I already explained.

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    • I never said that was their "actual power". What I'm trying to say is the Emeralds can do all these certain tiers of power due to having Infinite power and thus can be as strong or as weak due to certain tiers of aptitude, emotions, or a machine's purpose. I explained this in a past thread before.

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    • Just to clarify, I'm not against this whatsoever. Just explaining the power to the Emeralds to a certain individual who still doesn't get the Chaos Emeralds at all.

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      s
      16:59, December 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • "That's not an example of variation. The warning shot is meant to be weak, not to be their actual power. Their 5-B feats by themselves are what count. Repelling the Time Eater is hax as I already explained."

      Yes it does bro, and no one said "actual power" in the first place, it has different statistics because of its mechanisms in lore. that was the point trying to be displayed.

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    • I know you said yourself that you're derailing, and I appreciate that, but you two are getting worked up over nothing at this rate. Pretty sure you two are on the same side here anyways, even if you are aeguing over different points.

      As a general statement, don't make this thread anything more than what it has to be, people.

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    • I'm not trying to give this crt an early grave, but spine is about to finna make me do it.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:

      As a general statement, don't make this thread anything more than what it has to be, people.

      Agreed

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    • ^

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      I know you said yourself that you're derailing, and I appreciate that, but you two are getting worked up over nothing at this rate. Pretty sure you two are on the same side here anyways, even if you are aeguing over different points.

      As a general statement, don't make this thread anything more than what it has to be, people.

      I literally just said I was agreeing to the OP like as soon as i dropped that first comment...

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    • Wasn't towards you, dunce B)

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    • Please keep the thread respectful, the last thing we need is yet another Sonic thread turned into a shitstorm

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      Wasn't towards you, dunce B)

      Eat shit and suffocate lol

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    • Gilad Hyperstar wrote: Please keep the thread respectful, the last thing we need is yet another Sonic thread turned into a shitstorm

      Don’t worry. This is just how we talk with each other. No hard feelings on either party.

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    • MYHERO wrote:

      Don’t worry. This is just how we talk with each other. No hard feelings on either party.

      If so, then fine. But it pains me to see Sonic threads gets closed quickly for these reasons

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    • That usually happens when people provoke one another.

      Take a look at the 5-B upgrade thread. Aside from some things that were said in a rude tone, that thread was 100% civil.

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    • Gilad Hyperstar wrote:
      MYHERO wrote:

      Don’t worry. This is just how we talk with each other. No hard feelings on either party.

      If so, then fine. But it pains me to see Sonic threads gets closed quickly for these reasons

      it's about to, i don't play that game.

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    • Then let’s get things on track. What needs to be discussed if anything?

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    • Tbh more staff just need to drop by and give input.

      If there are reasons against this, then we discuss the reasons like any regular CRT.

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    • Just popping in to say I agree with the proposals (now excuse me while I'll exit stage left).

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    • Will any staff even give input tho, I know Cal did but he's probably busy now?

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    • The Axiom of Virgo wrote:
      Just popping in to say I agree with the proposals (now excuse me while I'll exit stage left).

      are you really myhero or are you the sibling?

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    • I never said that was their "actual power". What I'm trying to say is the Emeralds can do all these certain tiers of power due to having Infinite power and thus can be as strong or as weak due to certain tiers of aptitude, emotions, or a machine's purpose. I explained this in a past thread before.

      Explaining it in a previous thread doesn't make it more correct.

      And I didn't say that you siad it was their actual power, you're strawmanning me. I said the warning shot statement to show that it wouldn't even be variable, it would just be supressed strength.

      Infinite power clearly isn't applicable when Shadow, who can harness the full power of a Chaos Emerald, doesn't have infinite strength. It's mainly just random statements meant to hype up the Chaos Emeralds, and mind you that statements can be contradicted by direct empirical evidence.

      Emotions and machine's purpose determines the positive/negative polarity. You can increase the strength with emotions and etcetera, but that's mainly empowerment. They aren't variable in a 5-A sense is what I'm saying, and I'm fine with them being variable from 4-A to tier 2 all together, but a single Chaos Emerald definitely doesn't have any tier 2 feats and caps at tier 5.

      Also, the argument that infinite power can reach tier 2 is faulty in that merely infinite power doesn't cause a dimensional transcendance but uncountably infinite does, and they are no where stated to be uncountably infinite, and their "infinite" power can be summed up as hyperbole.

      I already explained how the tier 2 repelling is hax.

      Just to clarify, I'm not against this whatsoever. Just explaining the power to the Emeralds to a certain individual who still doesn't get the Chaos Emeralds at all.

      Someone having a different opinion than you causes you to become insulting? Sheesh.

      FYI we can have different opinions and still understand the same concepts. I've never insulted you on any thread, I'd appreciate it if you'd stop insulting me whenever I disagree with you on something.

      Regardless this is personal and brings about a toxic nature on the thread, so let's just move on.

      Yes it does bro, and no one said "actual power" in the first place, it has different statistics because of its mechanisms in lore. that was the point trying to be displayed.

      I said actual power. I didn't claim anyone else did. Again, don't strawman me.

      I already refuted the 5-A part, I'm fine with variable to an extent, but 5-A variability needs to go, and a single Chaos Emerald can't reach tier 2.

      I'm not trying to give this crt an early grave, but spine is about to finna make me do it.

      Did you really, actually just say this? Dude. Be mature. No need to be cocky lol, this is fictional debating

      it's about to, i don't play that game.

      If you purposely try to make threads toxic then you're gonna get banned xd Really, stop threatening to cause shit on this thread. We're in agreement here, we just disagree on irrelevant things that don't need to be brought in here.

      Regardless...

      Like Shake said, let's all together stop derailing. We're pushing for 5-A base forms. You can keep the variable tier for all the Chaos Emeralds, we're not adding a variable tier for a single Chaos Emerald here (make a CRT elsewhere if you want that), and Dark Gaia has zero meaning here besides providing another 5-A feat for Sonic.

      Again, push for the important, big picture here. Don't kill our chances because you got your boxers in a bunch over debating. After all, it's not like this is real or anything...

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      derailing the thread
      23:44, December 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • You don't understand, Imagine.

      You're poking a sleeping bear by saying you'll be able to get away with it. You tempt the system by threatening to turn this thread into a shitstorm, and you will get more than just a warning. Don't fuck this up for everyone involved. You're on the same damn side, so just cut it out and wait for literally anybody else to come in and spark a potential debate so this can go through.

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    • Let's stop with this Dark Gaia talk and focus on 5-A please

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      nice, now things are getting better
      23:43, December 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I can agree with saying Modern is stronger than dreamcast era and scaling him to perfect chaos, egg dragoon, etc at 5-A. I don't really feel like dealing with the rest rn but maybe I'll come back 

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    • Truth Bullets
      Truth Bullets removed this reply because:
      Didn't want the thread to be toxic
      23:41, December 3, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Wokistan wrote: I can agree with saying Modern is stronger than dreamcast era and scaling him to perfect chaos, egg dragoon, etc at 5-A. I don't really feel like dealing with the rest rn but maybe I'll come back 

      Perfect, thanks for the input.

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    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Squeak
      16:21, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Wokistan wrote:
      I can agree with saying Modern is stronger than dreamcast era and scaling him to perfect chaos, egg dragoon, etc at 5-A. I don't really feel like dealing with the rest rn but maybe I'll come back 

      perfect, would you care to have any other mods hop in?

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    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Chkt-chkt-chkt
      16:21, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Poof
      16:26, December 4, 2019
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    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Ribbit
      16:21, December 4, 2019
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    • Darksspine wrote: Thank you Wokistan. I suppose we should have another moderator on the supporters review this, then it could be closed(?)

      We're probably gonna need a few more stsff members for the 5-A section at least and that should be set.

      The 5-B base still needs more discussion for the sole purpose that, aside from Cal, no staff have given input on it.

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    • Gilad Hyperstar
      Gilad Hyperstar removed this reply because:
      -
      14:14, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Croak
      16:21, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Chirp
      16:21, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
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      16:20, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
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      16:20, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
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      16:20, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Meow
      16:20, December 4, 2019
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      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Boo
      16:20, December 4, 2019
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    • Fellas, from this point on, probably focus on the matter at hand and not derail, k? Pretty please?

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    • Comment only if you're making a contribution to the stuff related to the OP. Enough of this "you stop derailing", "no you stop derailing" drama. No excuses or justification about any unrelated business from now on.

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    • Thank you both. Time to get back on track.

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    • @AKM, @Zark

      Now that we've gone back on track, what are your opinions about this thread?

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    • Truth Bullets
      Truth Bullets removed this reply because:
      GAH
      18:09, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Mrrow
      17:09, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    •  

      I accept the blame and I apologize, I started it and irrationally tried to dunk it (although you kept bringing it up when told to stop) lets just try to get better with these things and i do plan on making a thread dark gaia. 

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    •  

      Agreed. Also, if I offended you, I apologize as well

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    • Hopefully lol

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    • People, quote Darksspine post first, he is using the Username thing

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    • Y'all fell for the USERNAME trick, my dudes. Now seriously, moving on

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    • The Imp-ress
      The Imp-ress removed this reply because:
      Woooo
      17:10, December 4, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Hey, Zark.

      While you're here, do you have any opinion on the contents in the OP?

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    • Don't know stuff about Sonic, and I don't wanna risk getting in drama lol.

      You can ask more knowledgable members though

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    • Darksspine wrote:
      Imagine.

      I was using a code joke.

      Codelolol

      Oh, lmao

      But now that we're back on track, I would like to continue and hear what you say about this

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    • @Zark Fair enough. Thanks anyways!

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    • welp i've been sent to the shadow realm

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    • @Zark When do you think is fair to make the additions? Should we wait longer?

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    • Uhhh guys...I know I started the whole joke but there's a rule about it now

      • Please refrain from using the {{USERNAME}} script unnecessarily, as it tends to derail and cause confusion. It should only be used in the Fun and Games forum, and even then only sparsely.

      and this one is insta-ban worthy

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    • Oh, uh... my bad.

      At least it got deleted before it caused any trouble, right?

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    •  

      I agree with everything here. Seems straight forward.

      Edit: Fell for the name thing, nvm that

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    • I'm not helping my case here.

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    •  

      Honestly just stfu. I at least agreed to your thread and made a better explanation on the Chaos Emeralds powers. Also another feat for Modern Sonic is he destroyed the Egg Destroyer who was going to turn the entire planet into a card with the Master Emerald's power.

      Ok I've been bamboozled. I hate y'all lol

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    • @Corgi Username trick, everyone's seeing their own name, Darksspine thought it was a smart idea to do this in a Sonic thread...

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    • Corgi. Read the posts above yours.

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    • FUCK! Well y'all at least gonna look at my Sonic feat I added?

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    • Greenshifter wrote:
      @Corgi Username trick, everyone's seeing their own name, Darksspine thought it was a smart idea to do this in a Sonic thread...

      My bad. I didn't know there was a rule against it.

      Also, you'd think people would catch on if they read the thread, saw that the comment was deleted, and even saw that the inital remark had a strike through it and was obv a joke.

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    • Works for me btw. @Corgi

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    • I agree with this

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    • Bump.

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    • Shake knows about a 180 I’m about to pull but I definitely agree now.

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    • @Zamasu downgrades Sonic to 7-A

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    • Zamasu Chan
      Zamasu Chan removed this reply because:
      Shh
      15:30, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Cough cough Way Big

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    • Nah But for real though, this thread isnjust about to reach a conclusion. Another staff input or so and we can move on from the 5-A bit.

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      yeetus deletus commentus
      18:28, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • You make it seem like I'm a secret villain. I'll let you know

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    • lmfao

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      deletus commentus
      18:36, December 6, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Bump

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    • BUMP

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    • Who is a knowledgeable staff member we can contact to approve this?

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    • We already got two. Another one or two wouldn't hurt.

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    • Bonk.

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    • Every bump hurts more and more.

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    • It shows persistence

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    • You're telling me. I'm probably gonna ask a few more peeps to stop by.

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    • I agree with the revisions. Shake convinced me with his stellar arguments.






      PSYCH!!!

      Still leaving this alone and unfollowing

      ovo

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    • )':

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    • TheFakeCalHoward strikes again. IDC if it’s unoriginal fite me >:V

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    • it's spelled *sike but k den.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      )':
      RKpoW6f
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    • I agree for modern base 5-A since he scales to the other 5-As and is stronger than the other eras. Basically FRA

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      inappropriate
      02:08, December 10, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Inappropriate

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    • Bump!

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      I agree with the revisions. Shake convinced me with his stellar arguments.





      PSYCH!!!

      Still leaving this alone and unfollowing

      ovo

      Now look, I've got no horse in this race since I know little about Sonic, but is saying "No I'm not convinced" really that hard to say compared to immaturely memeing on someone?

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    • Lightbuster30 wrote:
      The real cal howard wrote:
      I agree with the revisions. Shake convinced me with his stellar arguments.





      PSYCH!!!

      Still leaving this alone and unfollowing

      ovo

      Now look, I've got no horse in this race since I know little about Sonic, but is saying "No I'm not convinced" really that hard to say compared to immaturely memeing on someone?

      a few here that are supporters here does it too, it's the price to pay for being in the shadow realm

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212 wrote:
      Lightbuster30 wrote:
      The real cal howard wrote:
      I agree with the revisions. Shake convinced me with his stellar arguments.




      PSYCH!!!

      Still leaving this alone and unfollowing

      ovo

      Now look, I've got no horse in this race since I know little about Sonic, but is saying "No I'm not convinced" really that hard to say compared to immaturely memeing on someone?
      a few here that are supporters here does it too, it's the price to pay for being in the shadow realm

      Then they shouldn't be doing it either. And one person or a group of persons doing doesn't excuse doing the same. 

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    • I know, all of this can be resolved on the user walls accordingly, but let's not derail the main topic, we did alot getting here.

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    • @Light Don't worry, I know he didn't mean anything by it. He seems to have a greed with a part of the revision anyways, so I doubt he meant to have hard feelings lol.

      Let's get back on track.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      @Light Don't worry, I know he didn't mean anything by it. He seems to have a greed with a part of the revision anyways, so I doubt he meant to have hard feelings lol.

      Let's get back on track.

      I agree

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    • Bump.

      Actually, I think this should be added by now. There's no opposition. We're all in agreement. This has been around for nearly two weeks. We have mods in agreement with us. Let's wrap this up.

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    • Fair enough. Should we contact Antvasima?

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    • Yeah, Fam.

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    • Can somebody summarise the conclusions here in an easy to understand manner, and list the staff members that actively support, oppose, and are neutral to it? Thank you.

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    • Classic Era characters go from Low 6-B to 5-B. Adventure Era characters who don't appear in the Modern Era are 5-B+ due to being superior to Classic Era (who are .1 Yottatons away from 5-B+). Modern Era characters go from 5-B to 5-A. 5-A is removed from Super Forms completely.

      Agree: Wokistan, Cal (On 5-A Modern I think), Redgrave

      Neutral: Cal (The rest)

      Oppose: Nobody

      I'm going to be going to sleep rught after I post this, so any responses to my post will be answered a little after I wake up and get my bearings.

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    • Okay, and what are the summarised reasons for this?

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    • The Classic Era cast are able to fight one another while they're empowered by a Chaos Emerald, which alone has an output of 1.4 Yottatons. They've done it consistently, with Classic Sonic fighting other bosses powered by a Chaos Emerald as well.

      5-A comes from Modern Sonic being capable of the Egg Dragoon and Perfect Chaos within Sonic Generations, the latter having a 5-A energy source and the former being superior to a weapon with 5-A energy output, which falls in line with statements of him constantly getting stronger from a multitude of statements from across the series.

      5-A Supers come from Sonic battling Dark Gaia, but the context implies the Chaos Emeralds were restored to their peak and Sonic one-shot Dark Gaia as soon as he was able to confront it.

      And I think that covers the majority.

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    • uhhh didn't super sonic struggle with dark gaia connecting wii, ps2, ps3 and xbox 360? he had trouble breaking dark gaia's defenses and stuff, light gaia was a major help too, although this doesn't go against 5-A  Super Forms but this is after 06 btw and super sonic ended up being exhausted and fatigued.

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    • Light Gaia wasn't a major help, he was struggling a losing battle and needed Sonic's aid. You even lose in the 360 version if you take too long iirc. The tentacles were literally just stalling on Dark Gaia's part to stop the forcefield from dropping. As soon as it was down, Dark Gaia was one-shot.

      Super Forms being remotely anywhere close to a base form is an in-universe joke. 5-A Supers have got to go, and I'm not sure if you're defending keeping 5-A Supers or not.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:

      Super Forms being remotely anywhere close to a base form is an in-universe joke. 5-A Supers have got to go.

      I agree with the 5-A Supers removal, it makes no sense for base forms to be remotely comparable to Super forms. Hell, there is more evidence to tier 2 supers than to 5-A supers (egg wizard and egg salamander, time eater and solaris vs. Dark Gaia one shot)

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      Light Gaia wasn't a major help, he was struggling a losing battle and needed Sonic's aid. You even lose in the 360 version if you take too long iirc. The tentacles were literally just stalling on Dark Gaia's part to stop the forcefield from dropping. As soon as it was down, Dark Gaia was one-shot.

      Super Forms being remotely anywhere close to a base form is an in-universe joke. 5-A Supers have got to go, and I'm not sure if you're defending keeping 5-A Supers or not.

      I agree with the removal of the tierline but if there's a "varies" that would work for me.

      Light Gaia holds the same power to restore the emeralds from a state of absolute 0 and yeah both light gaia and dark gaia were getting stronger throughout the fight though dark gaia was gaining the edge in rapid growth, size, power and all of it, it's described as a being it's true power and the perfect form. more happened then that shake, if we compile all the versions together super sonic was getting injured throughout the fight and both a post 06 him and light gaia had to throw some serious hands, there wasn't a oneshot if things and oobstacles from said opponent prevented you from doing it, suer sonic was even surprised as light gaia being able to breaking through his defenses quicker and better without looking for hentai haven sweet spots, and super sonic got injured bro, what's proof the in game damage is canon? in the end post 06 Super Sonic was fatigued and tired as a sloth reverting back to post 06 base self. 

      but that's my point-eeeee. the 5-A removal thread is over and anything is up for grabs. 

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    • Using the fact that Sonic became tired is kinda pointless, as every other fight with Sonic has him fine and dandy afterwards. Even Solaris or the Egg Wizard, which are the two strongest enemies in the Sonic franchise, didn't even leave him breakins do much as a sweat. It's am inconsistency.

      Regardless, I just wanna get this revision over with.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote:
      Using the fact that Sonic became tired is kinda pointless, as every other fight with Sonic has him fine and dandy afterwards. Even Solaris or the Egg Wizard, which are the two strongest enemies in the Sonic franchise, didn't even leave him breakins do much as a sweat. It's am inconsistency.

      Regardless, I just wanna get this revision over with.

      it's not pointless, dark gaia is literally the only deity who's put the breaks on super sonic, super sonic and the chaos emeralds merely woke him up, turned super sonic into a werehog freak and then when that werehog tries to fight dark gaia, it eats all that power that was his own and starts tearing stuff tf out. and also for those two sonic for solaris couldn't beat him alone it's been stated in the guide and then shadow + silver were ants to a dinosaur with solaris' second form resorting to aiming for a weakspot to win, although all of them got some sweat in, even eggman prepping them for solaris' second state, they were harmed as well. egg wizard was a case of having most attacks evaded and would've oneshotted super sonic and burning blaze if not for the distraction that came later and teamwork. dark gaia's was fighting a chaos powered being and a comparable super form level being, and dark gaia had made it so in order to attack him, you were getting harmed by his defenses or by the big dark mother itself, the fact that super sonic actually got pushed to this point is more important than any other instance and should not be ignored, especially regarding a post 06 sonic, also sonic unleashed takes place in a time before sonic and the black knight and after sonic rush and secret rings. so that super sonic is a pretty par major. super sonic is shown to take damage from extremely powerful opponents. it's consistent that the gaia's can tangle around with super sonic and the energy of the chaos emeralds, it's also consistent that super sonic can take damage from powerful beings.

      Yeah let's get it over with.

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    • Just because Sonic couldn't beat him alone doesn't mean that Sonic got tired, and the Egg Wizard wasn't going to "one-shot" anyone. Eggman "prepping" them is in no way comparable to getting tired either. At this point, we're just derailimg with a bumch of nonsense. Just get rid of 5-A, that's all I've been saying. No need to bring up powerful opponemts, that isn't correlated whatsoever.

      Regardless, let's stop. Ant needs to take a look at the thread again when I summarize the points.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Okay, and what are the summarised reasons for this?

      ShakeResounding wrote: The Classic Era cast are able to fight one another while they're empowered by a Chaos Emerald, which alone has an output of 1.4 Yottatons. They've done it consistently, with Classic Sonic fighting other bosses powered by a Chaos Emerald as well.

      5-A comes from Modern Sonic being capable of the Egg Dragoon and Perfect Chaos within Sonic Generations, the latter having a 5-A energy source and the former being superior to a weapon with 5-A energy output, which falls in line with statements of him constantly getting stronger from a multitude of statements from across the series.

      5-A Supers come from Sonic battling Dark Gaia, but the context implies the Chaos Emeralds were restored to their peak and Sonic one-shot Dark Gaia as soon as he was able to confront it.

      And I think that covers the majority.

      @Antvasima

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    • Well, I think that seems to make sense, but I am not a good person to ask, and would prefer input from Sera EX, Dark649, and DarkDragonMedeus regarding this.

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    • To my knowledge, DDM was recommended to be temporarily topic banned from Sonic aside from the 2-B Maginaryworld thread that's supposed to take place later on due to the tension that was rising during that fiasco with some members here.

      Darkk649 has been inactive since October, but I'll see if I can get a response. I'll ask Sera on Discord to see if I can get her opinion on it, since she wanted to avoid these threads.

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    • Got it. we got this in the bag now.

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    • Medeus is not banned from anything. He has not done anything wrong.

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    • Anyway, you can also check the Sonic the Hedgehog (The Universe) page and the Knowledgeable Members List for more listed staff members to ask for help.

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    • I never said he was banned, Ant, I'm not a moron. I said other members and staff recommended he should be temporarily topic banned due to hostility beteeen him and other members. Unless you want something to happen, that'd be smart.

      I figured he can get somebody else to comment for him, as recommended by staff as well. You said yourself that any staff can comment a thread to give input, so I'm trying to avoid problems. Regardless, thanks for the link.

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    • Okay. I suppose that is probably fine.

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    • Topic banned isn't the right choice of words, more like taking a break for mental health recovery reasons.

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    • Sure. I didn't mean to offend you by my choice of words if I did.

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    • It's fine.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Anyway, you can also check the Sonic the Hedgehog (The Universe) page and the Knowledgeable Members List for more listed staff members to ask for help.

      ^

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    • I've already done so

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    • Okay.

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    • Sorry, but I meant it when I said I want absolutely nothing to do with this verse anymore. Nothing at all.

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    • Okay. My apologies about that then.

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    • Well no staff seems to be against this and 2 staff as well as several knowledgeable people have agreed with the upgrade. The upgrade seems uncontroversial enough to apply in my opinion.

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    • 3 staff, technically

      I'm inclined to agree. I've asked several other staff members just in case regardless.

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    • lmfao this is going just like how my NiGHTS thread is going.

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    • Sera EX wrote:
      Sorry, but I meant it when I said I want absolutely nothing to do with this verse anymore. Nothing at all.

      This will be a change.

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    • Well, congratulations to all of the Sonic fans (no, obviously not remotely all Sonic fans here) who have behaved like such relentless flippantly disrespectful and argumentative problems that the staff members who are actually knowledgeable enough to help out with your content revision threads want nothing to do with them anymore.

      My approval alone is certainly not reliable enough to base such revisions on, as my knowledge about the subject is too limited. We genuinely need their help, and yes, it is very possible that this and all other Sonic revisions will not go anywhere for quite a long time as a result.

      If you want anything to happen, I would recommend sincerely apologising to the staff members that you have mistreated, and making a massive effort to shape up and respect their decisions in the future.

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    • that's not gonna work to be real here.

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    • Well, if I remember correctly, you seem to be one of the worst offenders, so you preferably all need to either adapt to our conventions and the peaceful and respectful environment we want to maintain here, or go somewhere else instead.

      This thread likely won't go anywhere and be a waste of time unless the knowledgeable staff members are willing to help out.

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    • 3 staff members already agreed tho, this feels a little too much

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    • Which staff members agreed?

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    • Cal, Wok, and Redgrave

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    • Imagine is currently a "well behaved" member according to at least Medues. 

      Barely conversed personally with the dude tho.

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    • Cal simply seemed to say that he was neutral and would leave. Wokistan only accepted part of it. And Redgrave does not have the authority to approve content revision threads.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Well, if I remember correctly, you seem to be one of the worst offenders, so you preferably all need to either adapt to our conventions and the peaceful and respectful environment we want to maintain here, or go somewhere else instead.

      This thread likely won't go anywhere and be a waste of time unless the knowledgeable staff members are willing to help out.

      I don't even come with any smoke, I don't insult and alot of staff see me as a neutral well behaved member so......... yeah.

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    • when I said "that isn't gonna work" i'm saying too much deeds has already been done plus the staff weren't that much into sega/archie related verses anyway. I'm a neutral guy but i'm also a realist.

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    • Aight so Shake asked me to comment here again as he had no other options. Whether I agree or not, he just wants this to move on.

      Here’s the original calc for the Exlipse Canon. Giving it the star statement, it’s continent level, not any cosmic level blast.

      But that’s not my main draw.

      I’m still not for this upgrade, sorry.

      One, Dark Gaia. I’m not believing Sonic stomped it. One, that just makes no sense. Final boss getting stomped. Two, I was there when Sera upgraded the Emeralds. Her words were something like the CEs Power is as strong as they need to be for the scenario. Sonic straight up wasn’t hitting with tier 2 energy unless DG was tier 2 itself.

      Also the logic about the negative Chaos Energy feels...strange. Eggman used an Emerald to screw up the planet all the way back in the Advance games, and it didn’t turn gray. Surely didn’t have positive intentions then.

      But mostly, the characters being anywhere near the doomsday weapons makes little sense storywise. They always need to stop it from the inside, and what you’re saying is literally anyone worth their salt can wreck the Emerald powered doomsday weapons. Sonic’s shown to need his super form to do it in Unleashed’s opening. This is pushed even further by the fact that Eggman specifically has machines capable of combating Sonic that are very much not Emerald level. Boss machines (imma just call it that) = Sonic = Eclipse Canon and the like >>>>>>> Boss Machines. Chaos is the biggest offender, with the massive inconsistencies of his portrayal. As I said before, Cheese being > Chaos in any of his forms, let alone Perfect, makes zero sense contextually.

      Basically what I’m saying is that the franchise is inconsistent.

      I’m sorry. I know i was just supposed to take my leave. I should just go again. Sorry for disappointing.

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    • Problem with that version of the Eclipse Cannon calc there, its for 5 emeralds and the beam is thinner than when it shoots the Black Comet when it is powered by all 7 emeralds. When the beam impacts the moon with 6 emeralds you can even tell the beam is similarly even wider than that instance with 5 going by comaparing it to the diameter of the moon, with 7 its how its intended. 

      Not to mention that scenario would still neccessarily displace the mass from the center of a star to have the beam go through it and neccessarily require meeting the GPE to push it apart that much, which is large planet level in terms of energy.  

      If staff input won't be going on in Sonic CRTs, I'll prolly just go to a different wikia lmao. 

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    • honestly I kind of agree with Cal a little bit on the dark gaia part but all you need is to harm something to qualify for a tier line so that claim is a little moot as this outclasses normal base statistics anyhow

      the machines having a form that can recognize sonic's abilities isn't doing crap considering they can't do anything with that information physically, we've already seen how this goes down in CD and 06. egg dragoon is no pushover, but sonic used the emeralds for convenience and was shown not to need it as weresonic beats a amped and tweaked one near dark gaia's emanation.

      also the franchise isn't inconsistent, it's just undermining and overcomplicating certain things with headcannons like "dark gaia tainted the emeralds that's why sewpur sawnick got injured, exhausted and tired even though it's clearly stated the planet's will and light gaia's energy restored them to their absoluute peak of full power but yeah I can't accept that so the first one has to be it lulz XD lmfao" that make it seem so confusing like a delusion of.sorts.

      "Cheese being > Chaos in any of his forms, let alone Perfect, makes zero sense contextually" except with context and elaboration you can see that being the case, in sonic battle cream, amy and emerl could tag/keep up with/molley-whop chaos 0 like making pancakes at 11:30 Am on a sunday morning, plus alot of characters are beyond the gameboy era, even though this ain't about cream but the base and super characters.

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    • NGL, that last part by Cal came across as "I can't believe this guy I like is fodder now"

      No offense.

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    • UltimateFlare wrote: NGL, that last part by Cal came across as "I can't believe this guy I like is fodder now"

      No offense.

      But Knuckles isn’t fodder

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      UltimateFlare wrote: NGL, that last part by Cal came across as "I can't believe this guy I like is fodder now"

      No offense.

      But Knuckles isn’t fodder

      >:V

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    • The real cal howard wrote:

      UltimateFlare wrote: NGL, that last part by Cal came across as "I can't believe this guy I like is fodder now"

      No offense.

      But Knuckles isn’t fodder

      irl the original mvp

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    • But Knuckles isn’t fodder

      They seem to be with how sega treats the characters that aren't Sonic and to a lesser extent Shadow

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    • Mephiles was supposed to be In forces as a character or a projection made by Infinite, man.......... I miss the dreamcast-06 times, serious but not too gritty plot, every character had a say (besides ray and mighty) and Eggman was the big boss with the power to get **** done, was hell-bent on world domination in a really crispy note that made him unique, now he feels toned down..

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    • The real cal howard wrote: Aight so Shake asked me to comment here again as he had no other options. Whether I agree or not, he just wants this to move on.

      Here’s the original calc for the Exlipse Canon. Giving it the star statement, it’s continent level, not any cosmic level blast.

      But that’s not my main draw.

      I’m still not for this upgrade, sorry.

      One, Dark Gaia. I’m not believing Sonic stomped it. One, that just makes no sense. Final boss getting stomped. Two, I was there when Sera upgraded the Emeralds. Her words were something like the CEs Power is as strong as they need to be for the scenario. Sonic straight up wasn’t hitting with tier 2 energy unless DG was tier 2 itself.

      Also the logic about the negative Chaos Energy feels...strange. Eggman used an Emerald to screw up the planet all the way back in the Advance games, and it didn’t turn gray. Surely didn’t have positive intentions then.

      But mostly, the characters being anywhere near the doomsday weapons makes little sense storywise. They always need to stop it from the inside, and what you’re saying is literally anyone worth their salt can wreck the Emerald powered doomsday weapons. Sonic’s shown to need his super form to do it in Unleashed’s opening. This is pushed even further by the fact that Eggman specifically has machines capable of combating Sonic that are very much not Emerald level. Boss machines (imma just call it that) = Sonic = Eclipse Canon and the like >>>>>>> Boss Machines. Chaos is the biggest offender, with the massive inconsistencies of his portrayal. As I said before, Cheese being > Chaos in any of his forms, let alone Perfect, makes zero sense contextually.

      Basically what I’m saying is that the franchise is inconsistent.

      I’m sorry. I know i was just supposed to take my leave. I should just go again. Sorry for disappointing.

      In order:

      The calc didn't assume it being able to pierce through stars, which is what differs from that Eclipse Cannon calc and the one being used at the moment.

      Neutral on whether it was Tier 2 power or not. All I'm saying is that Super Sonic at minimum should be >>> Hyper-Go-On energy. Wr assume Perfect Dark Gaia is 5-A, but in really would scale to whatever Super Sonic's low-end should be after the removal of 5-A. Be that High 4-C, 4-A, or... I dunno. Whatever.

      The Advanced game example is something that can't really be compared, as the Chaos Emerald was used as a direct means of splitting the planet rather than as a key to some form of energy.

      That's reaching a little bit. Cheese is an Adventure Era character, and Modern Sonic and those who scale would be the ones affected by the 5-A upgrade. What a person feels is right and wrong has no prevelance within powerscaling. Sonic ultimately beat Perfect Chaos within Generations, which already shows that his repeated statements of growing in strength actually holds weight. Feeling weird and actually being wrong are things that should remain seperated.

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    • so we forgetting about sonic battle?

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    • Happening also doesn’t keep it from being an outlier. Pikachu obviously gets stronger throughout the generations, and that dude has a ton of outliers. Not even talking about hurting Arceus. There’s the Regi Trio, Latios, Mirage Mewtwo, and the cavalcade I’d Legenddey Tier threats he hurt in the most recent generation. And Kirby was said to have infinite power, but he didn’t scale to Magolor back when the Master Crown was 3-A. Sorry I’m using a bunch of Nintendo examples. They’re the first ones that come to my head due to being well...me.

      Also, it’s not what feels right/wrong, as it’s purely going by the context the story gives us. I could argue that it feels wrong to scale Pikachu to tier 6-4 because a regular Pokémon shouldn’t be on the level of Legendaries, but it happened. Sonic trains sure but he’s not getting growths like a shounen protagonist. Evidenced by the fact that all of his friends can still keep up with him, and I’m sure Tails doesn’t train or anything like that. Sure we could argue Knuckles (best boi), Shadow, Silver, and Blaze train to keep up, but Amy? Big? They’re Sonic level characters after all. Plus there’s still the case of Forces putting him right back down to Chaos 0 level.

      I do agree tho that Super Sonic should have a low end of star level tho. He should be 4-C to 2-C, as the original calc for the FEB was tier 4. Shake could vouch for me there.

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    • A Chaos 0 clone that Classic Sonic oneshot doesn't imply parity.

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    • You could argue it could be an outlier were it not for them already being at 5-B in the first place, and damn near 5-A with less than a 2x increase in strength to get there. Alongside already being significantly above the 1.4 Yottaton mark, thrashing the Egg Dragoon is also a supporting 5-A feat as well. There aren't just statements here, but feats to support a 5-A rating as well.

      Sonic not getting that much stronger is contradictory to what's given to us. Rouge says he's gotten "much stronger" within Sonic Battle. Obviously that doesn't give us much, but enough to tell us that his strength grows significantly. Tails actually has been stated to train with Sonic within Sonic Rivals after confronting Rouge, so ha OvO. Amy, Big and etc. have had no relevance to the plot to put them on Sonic's level whatsoever within the Modern Era. Even someone like Silver is seen to be smacked around by Infinite before Sonic goes head-to-head with him. And if you want to talk about Chaos 0, even Classic Sonic one-shots him. Classic Sonic, the guy who is currently rated as Low 6-B.

      Even at worst Super Sonic would be Large Star+ due to being superior to a random Wisp and being able to tangle with the Mother Wisp, who should be superior to any other Wisp ever. But yes, Cal does at least agree Super Sonic's low end shouldn't be 5-A.

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    • Let's wait a bit before we shut the whole operation down. Shake has told me personally he is busy and will address this shortly.

      Edit: Whoops. He commented.

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    • Amy was relevant in Boom tho

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    • Thank you for helping out Cal.

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    • A debate is better than nothing, at least.

      Time to wait :/

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    • Seems like things have calmed down which is a good thing. 

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    • Yeah, so let's just keep this show on the road.

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    • Amy does train in Battle though, she even drags Cream and Cheese to it

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    • All those arguments were just analogies with a completely diferent context than this

      We can just put Chaos 0 at the level of the current cast instead of downgrading everyone else, he could simply be stronger than his adventure self thus scale instead of downgrading everyone, plus the emeralds just Amp him, he could be simply already be at that level, get what I am saying?

      Anyways I do agree not every character should get to be as strong as current Sonic and Co, only certain characters

      The original calc of the FEB was simply wrong from another website, Sonic's fight with Dark Gaia doesn't even matter because the 5-A is from the cannon who simply awakened him, he even absorved the Werehog before fighting Light Gaia so scaling him to a feat that isn't even his is weird, he simply should be 4-A to 2-BC

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    • Theuser789
      Theuser789 removed this reply because:
      Double post
      13:12, December 15, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Wokistan wrote: I can agree with saying Modern is stronger than dreamcast era and scaling him to perfect chaos, egg dragoon, etc at 5-A. I don't really feel like dealing with the rest rn but maybe I'll come back 

      @Ant, Wok explicitaly agreed with the main part of the thread...

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    • Yes, but doesn't Cal disagree? That makes the situation uncertain.

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    • Antvasima wrote: Yes, but doesn't Cal disagree? That makes the situation uncertain.

      He did agree for the 5-A Supers removal (making Super Sonic be with only 4-A to 2-C part) based on his comment

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    • Well, the parts that both Wokistan and Cal agree about can probably be applied.

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    • Theuser789 wrote:
      All those arguments were just analogies with a completely diferent context than this

      We can just put Chaos 0 at the level of the current cast instead of downgrading everyone else, he could simply be stronger than his adventure self thus scale instead of downgrading everyone, plus the emeralds just Amp him, he could be simply already be at that level, get what I am saying?

      Anyways I do agree not every character should get to be as strong as current Sonic and Co, only certain characters

      The original calc of the FEB was simply wrong from another website, Sonic's fight with Dark Gaia doesn't even matter because the 5-A is from the cannon who simply awakened him, he even absorved the Werehog before fighting Light Gaia so scaling him to a feat that isn't even his is weird, he simply should be 4-A to 2-BC

      actually it wasn't the cannon that woke dark gaia, it was an amalgam of super sonic's amazing powers and as well as the chaos emeralds. http://info.sonicretro.org/index.php?title=File:SonicUnleashed_Prima_digital_guide.pdf&page=5

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    • I never agreed with 2-C or 4-A Super Hedgies because it's super flimsy with actual context from the games but this site can do whatever the hell it wants since Sonci seems to be it's little baby like Zelda.

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    • Good then, we don't need baseless claims/opinions without proof of it, actualy argue why instead of appealing to the authority of you actualy knowing unlike us when we all played those games multiple times

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    • Antvasima wrote: Yes, but doesn't Cal disagree? That makes the situation uncertain.

      Cal didn't even want to comment at first at all, and his reasons were already refuted by Shake

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    • Well, we cannot base an upgrade on one staff member agreeing and another disagreeing.

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    • Yes, but his reasons were already refuted, and he even himself didn't want to comment, sigh...

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    • @User Just wait for Cal to comment again.

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    • Maybe you could respectfully ask him to comment again, or ask other staff members?

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    • I've asked others, but a few have told me they don't feel knowledgeable enough on the verse. I can do so again if you want.

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      nagging
      16:37, December 15, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Greenshifter wrote: @User Just wait for Cal to comment again.

      And go in a circular debating when he doesn't want to and will just drag out and ignore the people who actualy agree, gotcha

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    • Feel free to do so. You can ask some other staff members this time if you wish.

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    • Imagine, complaining gets you nowhere. Just be patient.

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212
      TheImagineBreaker121212 removed this reply because:
      irrelevant
      16:37, December 15, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • also to not kill the thread i'll delete the comments

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    • TheImagineBreaker121212 wrote: this is nuts, if it was any other franchise this would've been got.

      No, we always need some sort of staff consensus. This is nothing unusual. The staff are just more reluctant to help out, since the Sonic threads have been filled with too much drama, and regular members who do not respect their decisions and continue to argue forever.

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    • Usually you argue because there are problems in the opposition's arguments, not because you feel like it. And the situation is already known. Bringing it up three times in every single Sonic CRT ultimately helps nothing and only puts the "Sonic fans" on edge. We get it, someone said some poo poo words on Discord. You don't need to hang it over anybody.

      I'm currently asking more staff.

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    • I don't care if it's accepted or not this reluctancy is like having a sick day for a month and getting a 5,000 paycheck for a mid rate job. this goes against the "compromise" environment full stop, there are many threads about sega when I can say staff are right but there's the few which they are wrong, i'm not busting no chops I look up to them for being able to take on the stress and converse but completely ditching a verse and threatening it's chances of revising statistics/powers/abilities is pretty underwhelming. This is more immature than the erratic sega folks here (obviously not including the level headed ones). You have poeple like Sonic And NiGHTS lacking attention while You Got Thanos, Yu, Ragna And Dante dancing in the chaos with all their buffs.

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    • You can't fight fire with fire. Even if any of that were true, Imagine, you need to be the one to keep a leveled head here. So again, whether you need to stop commenting or just walk away for a while, just take it easy.

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    • Okay then. I'll stop for the meantime and that's a promise. I'll just do my part here accordingly, afterall everything has went over well that way.

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    • The staff other than myself mostly do not do this as a job, but as a hobby. Hence, you need to make sure that you treat them well, or they will be far less likely to wish to help out for free anymore.

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    • I'm all about courtesy but when things like this is in the open you have to really start thinking.

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    • The staff are largely nice, helpful, and reasonable people. They are not trying to spite you on purpose, but you still need to treat them well, or they will likely turn much more unwilling to help you out for free, much like most other people.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      The staff are largely nice, helpful, and reasonable people. They are not trying to spite you on purpose, but you still need to treat them well, or they will likely turn much more unwilling to help you out for free, much like most other people.

      I know, I don't like to spite anyone I just feel like either side is not being honest or giving any breathing room or comfort, it's like telling a genuinely nice, shy and socially awkward person to go to a party and when he does he gets roasted aggressively and everyone is surprised when he doesn't do stuff like that anymore and has a change of heart. A problem is also how people (not everyone obviously) converse with eachother and staff, they attack the person and not their arguments and trails of fallacies accordingly which can be underwhelming. but both sides have a role and other things too.

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    • Wait wait wait, now hold up. It wasn’t just the “Sonic fans” (if that’s what you want to call them) that made me drop the verse. A couple staff have their own roles to play in this as well. Hell this only started because Cal asked me (more than once) to reply to a Sonic CRT even though I strongly didn’t want to. Of course I didn’t want to leave him hanging because he’s one of my best friends here. However, Dark is by far the most unbiased staff member when it comes to Sonic that also happens to be knowledgeable on it. So without Dark, it’s pointless for me to try to hop into the crossfire of disagreeing opinions in an (often) hostile environment, especially with a dozen other verses under my belt desperately crying for my attention. It doesn’t help that my interest in the verse has decreased over time. It’s somewhat similar to why Promestein hardly messes with Nasuverse CRTs anymore. They’re always chaotic, she generally lost interest in the verse, and she has other things to do. I’m saying this now because I just don’t want anyone thinking this is all the supporters’ fault, that’s far from the truth.

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    • Completely my point to. Remember what I said in my first message here. There was problems, sure, but it takes two to tango. It's not like one side got uppity out of nowhere. I actively admit my part in causing controversy, hence my apology up above. It's not fair to just say they're all problem children (for lack of a better term), especially when people like Shake have done everything in their power to keep things civil and make up for anything done in the past.

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    • I agree. I don’t like chaos on either side and would rather be in an actual discussion and not a war-zone, but because this verse is prone to have heated debates, I prefer to stay away. I’m not in the right mental state to deal with this kind of stuff.

      Anyway, no more derail from this Santa-lady. *teleports into the aether*

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    • I am in completaly agreement with Cal and Sera, it's true that some fans are kinda, uhhh, in these threads and cause problems, but some staff are definitvely in the wrong as well, they are still human like us all, then can also cause mistakes, and this whole "Sonic fans" blaming is a very broud exageration

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    • fax tbh but some threads are not war zones

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    • Well, I am glad that most of you are trying to be responsible and make up.

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    • All that said if i've done anything contributing to this I sincerely apologize.

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    • Again, thank you for trying to be responsible.

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    • Bump.

      Also a small note that not all characters are gonna scale to 5-A. People like Amy, Big, Cream, Marine, the Adventure Era characters, and etc. will be put as "At least 5-B". Only Sonic and those who scale to him or are shown/said to be comparable within the Modern Era will be 5-A

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    • I appreciate everybody apologizing, but come on. This happens like every thread now, then the thread dies. Even moreso than the people sparking problems, people apologize, which is a very good thing, but at the same time, if the thread devolves to this in place of VS debating or any actual progression thaen we've still failed.

      Again, I thank all of you, but can we stay on task instead of just saying "woowee, people sure do get out of hand!"

      Edit: Furthermore, stop with the Sera situation please. She's already said her feelings regarding the verse. Talking about it more is pointless. Just drop it already and respect what she wants.

      Stop derailing. I can't even say stop derailing anymore without there being more derailing, even with more comments going "yeah, stop derailing!"

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    • So can somebody remind me about what we need to do here?

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    • I am not really knowledgeable on Sonic, but most of the stuff in the OP seems fine by me, from a glance.

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    • Great Scott! Another Staff member? The sky is green!

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    • Antvasima wrote: So can somebody remind me about what we need to do here?

      Classic Era gets bumped from Low 6-B to 5-B.

      Adventure Era is 5-B already, so that generally stays the same.

      Modern Era gets bumped up from 5-B to 5-A.

      5-A Super Forms get removed, which has been unanimous in agreement.

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    • So which characters would be affected by the Modern bump (probably not Tails)

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    • Sonic, Shadow, Silver (Can fight Sonic in Generations), Infinite, The Avatar, and the Deadly Six. Probably Knuckles as well, as he's always considered to be a powerhouse for Sonic to handle Pre-Forces.

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    • I agree lads

      5-A base characters

      (Now I can see if big the cat can solo rwby or not)

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    • Everything seems fine to be applied, but as usual, more input surely will be needed.

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    • I agree for now.

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    • I agree as well.

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    • This seems good.

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    • If Ultima is fine with this, I suppose that it is probably fine to apply.

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    • I'll be willing to finalize and apply the changes with a few others after I wake up.

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    • Okay.

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    • ShakeResounding wrote: Locked:

      Avatar (Sonic the Hedgehog)

      Just checked, this one is unlocked. The rest you listed are locked tho @Shake

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    • Fixed. Thanks

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    • I will unlock them. Tell me here when you are done.

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    • Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic) should also preferably be unlocked.

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    • Also Big the Cat and Amy Rose?

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    • Spinoirr wrote: Also Big the Cat and Amy Rose?

      Big the Cat should have Animal Manipulation since he has consistently communicated with animals when the rest of the cast can’t.

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    • Should big be 5-A?

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    • No, he never fought Modern Sonic neither did Amy

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    • Or anyone that scales to Modern Sonic.

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    • Classic Sonic still need to have his profile unlocked

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      Or anyone that scales to Modern Sonic.

      I mean Amy did casually knock Knuckles into a tree in Generations, and it did seem to faze him a bit, but I don't know if that warrants enough for Amy to be upgraded.

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    • Gag

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    • I will unlock Sonic the Hedgehog (Classic). Tell me here when you are done.

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    • Classic Sonic is finished. We're currently just going through all the profiles that are affected, and should be done soon

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    • Okay. Tell me here when I should lock all of the profiles that I unlocked earlier again.

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    • Actually, there are a few more profiles that need to be unlocked. After these, this revision thread should be nearing completion.

      Super Emeralds

      Sol Emeralds

      Master Emerald

      Blaze the Cat

      Eggman Empire

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    • Dr. Eggman profile also needs to be unlocked

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    • This is a perfect time to change that note in the Archie Chaos Emerald wiki that misleads that there was a contradiction...

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    • I have unlocked them, including Dr. Eggman.

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    • All the profiles that were unlocked can now be locked