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    • Satan's upgrade has already been attempted here in the past. The main reason he never got upgraded is because it is not a complete Universe that he made. Even if it involved manipulation of Space-Time to be created, @Antvasima had mentioned in the past that small displays of power over Space-time are not enough to warrant an upgrade to 2-C, including the creation of pocket Dimensions that are absurdly smaller than a full size universe (otherwise characters like Kaguya from Naruto would be Tier 2-C).

      And as for the respect thread, nothing there was mentioned that hasn't already been debunked/discussed on this site.

      If you have any further questions/disagreements, feel free to let me know.

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    • Sheoth wrote: Satan's upgrade has already been attempted here in the past. The main reason he never got upgraded is because it is not a complete Universe that he made. Even if it involved manipulation of Space-Time to be created, @Antvasima had mentioned in the past that small displays of power over Space-time are not enough to warrant an upgrade to 2-C, including the creation of pocket Dimensions that are absurdly smaller than a full size universe (otherwise characters like Kaguya from Naruto would be Tier 2-C).

      And as for the respect thread, nothing there was mentioned that hasn't already been debunked/discussed on this site.

      If you have any further questions/disagreements, feel free to let me know.


      Alright, thank you. But do you have any links for some of the debunks?

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    • Too much hassle to find them. Instead I could just re-explain any that might be relevant again now. Which points specifically do you want me to explain/debunk?

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    • Sheoth wrote: Too much hassle to find them. Instead I could just re-explain any that might be relevant again now. Which points specifically do you want me to explain/debunk?

      1.)The statement about Michael rivalring the entire universe, people try and use the argument that she is the strongest seraph by far as evidence. 2.)https://plus.google.com/116573583512335660543/posts/NpUhAukm43Y?iem=4&gpawv=1&hl=en-US 3.)https://plus.google.com/116573583512335660543/posts/9GhiYHNptJg?iem=4&gpawv=1&hl=en-US 4.)the power to break out of hell. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UIwLIesNvc8/TnMmrUmZnGI/AAAAAAAABSM/y5HJmbc3_08/s16000/028.jpg 5.)And this random argument that each wall in hell has universal durability since they can hold back Satan(Who is apparently universal), which somehow makes them 10X universal

      Unfortunately When I tried to debunk It they were stubborn, probably because of my limited knowledge.

      Is this too much?

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    • 1. Baseless hyperbole by a drastically weaker character. It was Lars who stated this (I believe), and he was only expressing his shock at how vastly more powerful Michael was compared to him and all of the other Angels shown up to that point, and it was also just used to hype Michael up as well for later chapters.

      2. Link is broken for me :(

      3. The statement "they can change instantly between destruction and creation" is, again, baseless hyperbole. That kind of wording is used all the time in most instances writing and everyday speech simply to describe something moving at a very fast speed, e.g. "The baseball instantly left the pitchers hand and hit the catchers glove." Was the baseball actually instantly moved/thrown? No. It is extremely unlikely that it was literally instantaneous by any means.

      As for the moving within frozen time, I don't believe that is a measure of speed, it is more of a measure of hax resistance. Being able to move while time is frozen just shows that even fodder tier angels have resistance to a timestop, not that they are above the concept of time.

      4. I found one of the threads where I debunked this one. Here is what I said: 

      "The Universal feat I debunked a while back ran on the common misconception that the 5.67 billion Tera-Adelhieds of Light energy needed were to break open the Black Abyss, when it was actually needed to break open God's Alcatraz dimension which was holding Dark Schneider at the time."

      In other words, the "Big-Bang" level energy was needed to break through God's Alcatraz space, and not the walls around Hell, which are 2 completely different things.

      5. This is actually the first time I have seen this argument, so I will make an entirely new response right here.

      For starters, nothing is ever mentioned at any point in the story about the totality Hell being a full sized Universe, and especially nothing that each individual section of hell is a full sized Universe. It says Multi-leveled structure, true, but Multi-level =/= Multi-Dimensional. Even if they were all separate dimensions, they are not full sized Universes, and, again, nothing even says that Hell itself is a full sized Universe. This falls back to the exact same reason as to why Satan wasn't upgraded to Universal, because they aren't the same as a full sized Space-Time continuum.

      Even if we find out that Hell and all of its sections and subsections are full sized Universes, it still wouldn't upgrade anyone due to the fact that it was never destroyed. The dude's claim in this respect thread saying that the "Black Abyss was destroyed, and so were the other 9 levels as well" is complete and utter misinformation. Hell was never shown, stated, or even hinted as being destroyed when the Black Abyss was shattered. On the contrary, the 6 demon kings were shown throughout the rest of the volumes after the Black Abyss was shattered, still in a perfectly intact Hell. Funny thing is, he also claims that DS and Uriel were on the lowest level of Hell, when they were still on the first level.

      And finally, even they did destroy all of Hell, none of it even matters since the Black Abyss doesn't have Universal durability as stated in point #4.

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    • That didn't work either.

      But regardless, I am happy to help anytime.

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    • Sheoth wrote: That didn't work either.

      But regardless, I am happy to help anytime.


      Okay, thanks again.

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    • Hey Sheoth, I was intending to discuss some stuff regarding Bastard!! with you, but I guess I could provide the reasonings for my beliefs in this thread. I won't be responding to all of the points, since they genuinely wouldn't benefit me or Bastard!! either way.

      4. Your point is moot - Abigail and the Sorcerer Generals were intending to generate and release the effects of the attack to destroy the wall / entrance (Black Abyss, as stated by Michael) that would LEAD to Alcatraz Dimension / Hell, not to destroy the imaginary space as a whole. Why would you ever get the impression that their objective was to release a Universe+ attack at the place that Dark Schneider was inhabiting, if the latter had just got demolished by a barely Moon level Anthrax? Either you're to take DKL and Augeoides Uriel to be Universe+ - or take Pre-Timeskip Dark Schneider to be Universe+ :/. If you were to be trapped in a situation where there was a possible threat for a fire erupting, I don't think anybody here would actually consider destroying the entirety of the building - rather the rational solution would be to destroy the door that has halted you from escaping the building. Yoko herself states that they would be attempting to FREE Dark Schneider from the sealed dimension, and not destroy it.

      Hell and Astral Plane are still 4D structures / space-time continuum, so your point wouldn't matter anyway.

      5. Hell is widely regarded to be an alternative universe for the demons, from a biblical stance and most fictional platforms, including Bastard!! - where it is directly stated to consitute an entire universe for the demons.

      6 [Regarding Satan's feat]. You have to consider the dimensional content that is suggested in Bastard!!. God would AT LEAST have to be a 5D being for creating the universe in the first place, which fits well with him existing on the highest dimension in the verse, where 4D characters are common. Satan would have HAD to create a 5D universe for him to replicate the entire work of God (Universe). I, myself, don't know how this would affect Satan's DC, but his Post-Fall form, and AoD, would be millions times this, as that is a standard increase for falls.

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    • Of course.

      4. First off, I am calling for evidence on your part to prove that Hell and the Alcatraz dimension are related in any way to inquire that the Big Bang levels of energy are needed to break through the Black Abyss, when it was never even stated that this was the case. This scan you provided doesn't really say much about the topic other than that Dark Schneider and Uriel destroyed the Black Abyss. Also, I don't recall saying that they intended to completely destroy the Alcatraz dimension with that amount of energy, only that they would temporarily break through it with the 5,670,000,000 Tera-Ah of light energy (again, never referring to Hell since they had no idea that Dark Schneider was in Hell at that point).

      5. Beelzebub in this scan isn't calling the entirety of Hell a separate Universe, he is referring to the pre-existing Universe that will become full of Demons after Nega-Genesis occurs. If it is stated somewhere that Hell is a full sized Universe, I would gladly go along with an upgrade, but no one has brought such a statement forward.

      6. Even if that is the case, there is the overlying likelihood that Hagiwara is not referring to dimensions in the same sense that this Wiki views them. Characters like Satan being Higher Dimensional to the point of being Multiversal causes major contradictions in the story in terms of what showings the characters have displayed and what has been stated on panel. It was previously discussed here, and I personally weighed in here. It is possible for God, but the other characters have shown that it is likely not the case for them.

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    • @Sheoth


      What would creating the intial singularity of a universe qualify as? I am pretty sure the statement about the flames of the past seems to imply Satan created the singularity.

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    • Hmm... Which statement are you referring to again?

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    • Sheoth wrote: Hmm... Which statement are you referring to again?


      The statement of Uriel when Satan created the universe. He states how it's just like the flames of the past.

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    • ZeoParadox wrote:

      Sheoth wrote: Hmm... Which statement are you referring to again?


      The statement of Uriel when Satan created the universe. He states how it's just like the flames of the past. Image.jpeg

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    • I don't think that is exactly what he is referring to by "flames of the past." For all we know, he could be referring to the fire that Satanel used to cure him of his disease.

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    • Sheoth wrote: I don't think that is exactly what he is referring to by "flames of the past." For all we know, he could be referring to the fire that Satanel used to cure him of his disease.

      I see...but what tier would the initial singularity actually be listed as?

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    • Sorry for the late response. An initial singularity of a full sized 4-D Space-Time Continuum would be Low 2-C.

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    • Sheoth wrote: Sorry for the late response. An initial singularity of a full sized 4-D Space-Time Continuum would be Low 2-C.

      Alright

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    • A FANDOM user
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