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  • This isn't a vs. debate, but it's something I've been meaning to ask due to my own confusion. How is Pikachu's tiering at High 6-A when he's defeated the likes Tapu Koko, who is at a 4-B rating? I'm sure there's a reason for this, but it's gotten me pretty confused.

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    • To be blunt, the Pokemon pages are generally in a pretty poorly defined state currently. Ash's Pikachu isn't considered 4-B due to his scaling being considered outliers, but other common pokemon (such as Lucario) have been scaled to 2-C, possibly 2-B based on a singular, highly questionable, feat against a Darkrai that is pretty featless AP-wise.

      Zeraora was upgraded to 5-B, and then 4-B, based on it battling a Guzzlord in the anime whereas Pikachu is still only considered 7-A, merely higher with electricity and Z-Moves, even though Pikachu contributed over 50% of the power to overpower a Guzzlord and has matched that same Zeraora in battle. This becomes especially egregious when you notice that Pikachu defeated Guardian of Alola, which is a construct using all of the power of Alola (and requires the powers of all Tapus to trigger) when the Tapus are shown to be capable of easily blocking off a Guzzlord with their combined energy.

      It's even stranger when you note that Ash has a Melmetal, which is considered 4-B, and Kukui's Incineroar stomped it...which would scale all of Ash's pokemon to 4-B for scaling to Kukui's Incineroar.

      Overall, if you ignored the claims that every single one of SM Pikachu's feats are outliers, you'd come to the conclusion that SM Pikachu is 4-B for scaling above Tapu Koko and is further into 4-B for overpowering and defeating Guardian of Alola.

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    • I see. To my knowledge, outliers are singular feats that are far above the character's normal capabilities, and are thus not counted when considering their overall tier. However, if Pikachu was pulling off feats like this consistently throughout Sun and Moon (assisting in the defeat of Guzzlord, defeating Silvally, and overpowering Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola), would all of those be outliers? Even though Pikachu has defeated legendaries before, without any influence from the Blue Orb, prior to SM?

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    • That seems to be the implication on the wiki, yes.

      I believe SM Pikachu scales to legendaries VERY consistently, and this has (thus far) continued into PM2019, with Pikachu's Thunderbolt overpowering the combined Hyper Beam of Gyarados and Tyranitar (which should be a mid-tier High 7-A feat) and its Thunderbolt stunning and even hurting Lugia (a 6-B) for a few seconds.

      The only reason this scaling doesn't make sense is due to:

      A) UBs and Island Guardians were 5-B before due to UBs 'threatening the world' (even though we see a world where UBs won, and it's very clear their AP is nowhere close to 5-B)

      B) In the PokeSpe manga, the Tapus, UBs, Zygarde and Sivally all scaled to 4-B for taking on Necrozma, and they scaled Zeraora and Melmetal to 4-B for scaling in the anime (Melmetal to Sivally and Zeraora to Guzzlord), even though Ash's Pikachu defeated a weakened Sivally (after Sivally defeated Melmetal) and even though Zeraora's scaling is the exact same as what Pikachu did to Guzzlord.

      Overall, it's not that Pikachu doesn't scale to legendaries consistently in SM and PM2019 (thus far), rather it's the fact that the legendaries he scale to were given ridiculous tiering upgrades based on scaling in a single manga, that has no relation to the Anime or Games outside of Multiverse theory.

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    • I see. In that case, it would seem more consistent to rank UBs, Island Guardians, and anyone that scales to them as 5-B and bump Ash's Pikachu to 5-B, at least that's what my guess is on what would be a more consistent way to rank these Pokemon.

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    • Man, Pikachu is a fucking monster in combat.

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    • 4-B Pikachu vs. Comics Thor ovo

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    • From my perspective, the Anime has a VERY different view on scaling legendaries than the Manga. Their legendaries are usually around Island-level and higher, with others like Groudon, Kyogre and Rayquaza being continental. Mewtwo and Mew are depicted as being somewhere in 6-B, considering Mewtwo wasn't going to destroy the Earth but was, rather, going to raze it and wipe out the human race IIRC.

      I don't think any legendaries in the anime, thus far, have displayed actual planetary statements or feats other than Darkrai, Creation Trio and Arceus.

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    • Maybe, but it seems like the wiki uses their highest-scaled feats, which is why the Tapus, UBs, etc. are all 4-B. However, if they were all 5-B instead, bumping Ash's Pikachu to 5-B wouldn't be much of a stretch (that's one buff Pikachu)

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    • Yeah, it does. The wiki treats all legendaries across all universes as sharing the same AP. I've expressed many, many, times my discontent with that stance on scaling and don't think any of the writers across different mediums (Manga, Anime, Games, Cards, Lore, etc) are collaborating or quality checking to maintain consistency across canons.

      Regardless, I would say I agree with your assessment. Pikachu should be scaling to the Tapus and UBs based on everything it has done in SM. Even if they wouldn't scale Pikachu, they should scale the rest of Ash's SM team as well as Anime Kukui.

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    • pikachu had a little nit of trouble against tyranitar and gyrados but i think he one shotted?

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    • the 100,000 volt move was the only move that touch them actually and the solar beam from the ivysaurs must have weaken them

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    • I agree with this if this is supposed to be an upgrade.

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    • The Solar Beam weakened them, I believe, but Pikachu's Thunderbolt clashed with their combined Hyper Beam and completely overpowered it, and then finished them off.

      Pikachu struggles a bit visibly before Ash tells it to go further, and then completely overpowers the Hyper Beam with ease. It didn't even win a BEAM STRUGGLE it VAPORISED the combined Hyper Beam.

      There is this great Reddit user named DoctorGecko that compiles sources and such for feats and statements in the anime.  This is a Gif he made on his Reddit post for PM Pikachu here. It shows the feat I detailed above.

      Fully-evolved Pokemon scale to Charizard's feat of melting mountains which was calculated to be 790.31 Megatons. Tyranitar and Gyarados' Hyper Beam should be equal to this feat at least, so their combined Hyper Beam must be around 1.6 Gigatons (Close to mid-High 7-A AP) and Pikachu completely overpowered it with a single Thunderbolt. This scales Pikachu to around or even above mid-High 7-A I believe.

      It should also be noted, the anime goes out of its way to show Giovanni greatly respects and trusts the Team Rocket trio and his machine seems to have hundreds of Team Rocket-owned pokemon. These aren't average pokemon, they are pokemon intended for elite Team Rocket members to use in battle. So it's extremely doubtful that this Tyranitar or Gyarados are weak members of their species, considering Team Rocket seeks powerful pokemon to steal and use.

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    • Also, it's worth pointing out that Melmetal is only 4-B because of the fact that it fought evenly with Gladion's Silvally, which is only 4-B because of the world-destroying thing from the manga. If we're taking my idea into account, Melmetal would get nerfed to 5-B and the rest of Ash's Pokemon would hit 5-B as well, same with Kukui's Pokemon.

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    • pikachu need upgrade

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    • Episode 4 aired with the Pikachu vs Starter battle, and Pikachu one-shot. Still no outliers from SM Pikachu's feats outside of not defeating Lugia easily, and definitely no outliers from it being High 7-A for overpowering a combined Hyper Beam by Gyarados and Tyranitar.

      We'll see how the anime handles Gigantamax Snorlax in the next episode, considering Gigantamax is currently scaled above Lugia IIRC.

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    • So is Pikachu getting Upgraded or..?

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    • i think z move pikachu should get a 4-B upgrade as he did blast ub's with it.

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    • I think Pikachu being upgraded to High 7-A is reasonable currently, but somebody needs to contact the Knowledgeable Members regarding Pokemon, particularly staff that can approve the upgrade.

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    • I’m surprised Pikachu isn’t High 7-A, frankly.

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    • Considering Cal has already posted here, I think we'd only need Dark649, GyroNutz and maybe Saikou to take a look at the thread and consider whether Pikachu being High 7-A is a reasonable upgrade.

      I don't really remember the requirements to upgrade a character though, so Cal might be able to approve it himself.

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    • Why not 4-B for fighting all the other 4-Bs?

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    • pikachu casually countered a hyper beam from gyrados and tyranitar, pretty sure that is high 7-A

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    • If he were to be upgraded though, would it just be High 7-A or at least High 7-A? I think the latter is better because Pikachu has been shown to compete with even legendaries (even at the beginning of the SwSh anime, he damaged Lugia, a 6-B character). I might be stretching it, but MAYBE "At least High 7-A, possibly higher," though I think "At least High 7-A" works too. There's no reason for Pikachu to stay 7-A, that's for sure.

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    • I believe at least High 7-A makes more sense. I'm relatively certain he's at least 7-A due to all of his higher tier scaling that isn't consistent with how he fairs against weaker pokemon.

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    • Honestly, this was only prevalent when Pikachu fought Snivy in Unova, and since that was one instance, I'm pretty sure it could be considered an outlier. Take the new anime for instance. Pikachu damaged Lugia, overpowered a combined Hyper Beam from a likely well-trained Gyarados and Tyranitar, and one-shot Scorbunny. At least High 7-A sounds good, and I still think MAYBE, just MAYBE due to its higher feats, we could have it as "At least High 7-A, possibly higher" (or likely higher if the odds are favorable enough)

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    • Seriously, he should get a "Possibly 4-B" due to the ridiculous amount of 4-Bs he fought and beat.

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    • I'm talking worse case scenarios here. Tbh, a possibly 4-B rating is possible because of his accomplishments against Guzzlord, Silvally, and Tapu Koko (the latter on multiple occasions), on top of being comparable to, if not stronger than, Melmetal. Imagine that tho, "At least High 7-A, possibly 4-B." Talk about a jump

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    • I know right?! XD

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    • I'd vouch for a 5B Pikachu....though a 4B one is too much of a stretch, tbh.

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    • Yeah, I acknowledge that that's a stretch. The thing is, though, that Pikachu has scaled to Pokemon like Tapu Koko, Silvally, and Guzzlord, all of which he has defeated, and via power scaling by comparing the opponents he and Melmetal fought, Pikachu should be at least as strong as Melmetal. The thing is, the three Pokemon I mentioned were all 5-B, but got boosted to 4-B because of the whole world-threating thing with Necrozma and Zygarde, but 5-B arguably makes more sense for them, and at that point, a 5-B Pikachu sounds reasonable.

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    • So he should be labeled as 5-B for scaling to 4-B’s?

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    • I'm just demonstrating that power scaling for Pokemon is pretty poor here. One feat suddenly scaled a number of mons much higher than they frankly should be. The UBs and Island Guardians were 5-Bs before this, as was Zeraora. Funnily enough, despite equally contributing to the defeat of Guzzlord, Zeraora got boosted to 4-B yet Pikachu stayed as "At least 7-A"

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    • Regardless of the case, Pikachu is definitely at least High 7-A as of PM2019. Gigavolt Havoc's AP scales far above its normal AP and 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is the most powerful attack in the entire franchise (considering it enables Pikachu to one-shot UBs and Guardian of Alola), and clearly scales far above Gigavolt Havoc.

      10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt >> Guardian of Alola >> Gigavolt Havoc >> Pikachu >> Tyranitar

      10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt should be 4-B, considering it only has 4-B scaling. Gigavolt Havoc seems to also be 4-B, but to a far lesser degree, and Pikachu itself is at least High 7-A.

      The issue is that Pikachu has fought numerous 4-Bs and tanked them, without using any Z-Moves to amp its AP briefly.

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    • And the fact that Pikachu has done so consistently means that they can't really be considered outliers, as this strength has not only been consistent in the SM anime, but has also carried over into the 2019 anime.

      I think it's safe to assume that Ash's Pikachu needs an upgrade, one way or another.

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    • DragonGamerZ913 wrote: Imagine that tho, "At least High 7-A, possibly 4-B." Talk about a jump

      Jon Kent has a way higher jump.

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    • That’s different

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    • Wow, didn't know that

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    • CryoTheMayo wrote: Yeah, it does. The wiki treats all legendaries across all universes as sharing the same AP. I've expressed many, many, times my discontent with that stance on scaling and don't think any of the writers across different mediums (Manga, Anime, Games, Cards, Lore, etc) are collaborating or quality checking to maintain consistency across canons.

      Of course they aren't keeping quality control of all of them, that doesn't make sense. But Word of God says both the anime and PokéSpe are as valid as the games at the end of the day, so at least those 3 should be used interchangably.

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    • Word of God can be contradicted, rejected and ignored if it isn't in-line with the rest of the franchise and is an outlier from everything else depicted.

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    • But when has it been contradicted?

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    • It really hasn't been contradicted.

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    • Well, if you want to argue that Pikachu seriously scales to 4-B, along with many of the cast in the Alola anime...as well as claiming that the SM protagonist is 4-B for the majority of the game, sure. It's 'consistent'.

      Not really sure how you can claim these species are all 7-A fully-evolved but then claim this 11 year-old scales above all of the other protagonists by such a ridiculous degree. You fight Type: Null for the first time on Route 5, along with a Zubat for crying out loud.

      As far as I am aware, all of the scaling for the UBs, Island Guardians and Type: Null/Sivally stems from Necrozma.

      The UBs all scale to 4-B due to causing Zygarde to come to Alola (which is terrible justification, considering Zygarde's entire interest is preserving the ecosystem. Their AP threat has no basis with just that). Solgaleo and Lunala are 4-B due to providing Necrozma its light, which is somewhat questionable at best. Island Guardians are 4-B due to fighting Solagelo and Lunala and Zygarde is 4-B due to fighting Necrozma in a singular manga.

      In summary: Zygarde scales to Necrozma (in a single manga showing), the UBs scale to 4-B because 'Zygarde came to Alola due to them' (which makes zero sense, it has no implication on their AP), Type: Null/Sivally scales to the UBs, which have terrible scaling logic in the first place, and Tapus scale to 4-B due to Solgaleo/Lunala providing Necrozma with energy.

      You can argue Zygarde, Necrozma, Solgaleo and Lunala reasonably scale to 4-B but the UB and Sivally scaling provided on their pages is weak at best. The only UB with any logical basis for 4-B, as far as I am aware, is Guzzlord for requiring multiple Tapus in the anime.

      And even with all of the above provided, it's absurdist for Pikachu and Ash's entire team to leap from 7-A to 4-B in such a small timespan, the same can be said for pretty much every character in the manga, anime, games, etc. 

      Overall, the entirety of Necrozma's scaling is a ridiculous outlier across the franchise itself. Sivally and UBs definitely shouldn't be scaling to it in the first place. 

      Regardless, I'm not really interested in debating the topic any further. Claiming the scaling isn't blatantly contradictory relative to the rest of the entire franchise is, in itself, a bizarre claim considering how badly it mismanages the entire multiverse of the setting, all based on a single manga's scaling.

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    • I'm totally not saying what you're implying. At no point have I supported such a blatant outlier such as 4-B Pikachu.

      Also, "small timespan" is the single worst argument I've read. Naruto Uzumaki (Part II) went from 7-A to 5-C on a week. Akuto Sai from Low 7-C to 1-A in 3 days. Time is totally a non-factor.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      You forgot the part where Naruto had his jesus powers triggered by Ninja Monk God. If you are going to claim it's reasonable for a trainer, at the near start of their journey, to defeat a 4-B with such low-level (2nd stage at most) pokemon, there would need to be an actual incentive for such a ridiculous power leap. I wouldn't know about Akuto.

      Regardless, this thread concerns how Pikachu's power scaling should be managed. Not whether or not that power scaling is a reasonable leap or should even really be used in the greater scheme of the franchise.

      _____________________________________________

      In Episode 5 of PM2019, Pikachu's Thunderbolt doesn't even slightly effect Gigantamax Snorlax (who has feats of causing the entire landscape to shake and shift when it leaped upwards and fell down). This means Pikachu can effect Lugia with a Thunderbolt, but is unable to even slightly phase a Gigantamax Snorlax. 

      Right now, it seems Pikachu can phase 6-Bs like Lugia and can completely overpower High 7-A attacks like a combined Hyper Beam from Gyarados and Tyranitar. So At least High 7-A Pikachu is very reasonable to argue right now.

      The issue would be scaling Pikachu's Z-Moves and its 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

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    • @CryoTheMayo TBF, the Lugia easily tanked that Thunderbolt like a boss, though.

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    • Yeah, but in the anime and manga alike, Lugia pretty clearly flinched from the Thunderbolt. But this scaling makes sense because:

      • Due to Gigantamax Corviknight, Gigantamax is scaling to or above Lugia
      • Lugia is weak to Thunderbolts
      • Snorlax is a tanky pokemon that only takes neutral damage from Pikachu

      So Pikachu's Thunderbolt has the AP to make an at least 6-B flinch, if they are weak to it, but can't make a tanky at least 6-B that takes normal damage flinch. We also know Pikachu can completely overpower a High 7-A attack.

      I honestly think there is argument for Pikachu to be 6-C. based on its Thunderbolt flinching Lugia and it vaporising a mid-High 7-A Hyper Beam, but at least High 7-A is accurate enough for Pikachu right now.

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    • Based on all this, my best idea would be to rank Pikachu as at least High 7-A, possibly 6-C, since Pikachu's Thunderbolt did cause Lugia to flinch as previous stated. Of course, there's also the issue with the Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were), but that's a discussion for another time.

      Edit: Need I mention that Zygarde's scaling is even more out of wack now because 50% Zygarde is likely 4-B apparently due to sending Ultra Necrozma flying, despite being much weaker than it.

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    • Considering Alain's Charizard tussles with 50% Zygarde but then can't do a damned thing to Primal Groudon and Kyogre...and then the anime has Ash scaling his pokemon to 4-B the literal generation after? Yeah.

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    • DragonGamerZ913 wrote: Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were)

      Based on what were they 5-B? Because the 4-B justification kinda weird anyways, I want to know the 5-B one.

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    • The justification was always UBs>Tapus because it’s direclty said they and the Kahunas fighting with them barely escaped with their lives or something like that, and the Tapus tangoed with the Cosmic Duo.

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    • The world of the beasts, eh... Is that what that thing was that came to Poni Island? A beast? Tapu Fini and I tried to fight it, but it nearly did us both in. We did not stand a chance.
      ~ Hapu
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    • Out of curiosity, what is the context of the UBs causing them to flee? Was it a few? A bunch? Was it due to their power or dangerous abilities they were using to amp themselves or hinder them?

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    • Singular. We see one when it confronts Hala. Hapu doesn’t pluralize. Tapu just engages and it cuts back to Elio/Selene so the most likely option given Hapu’s testimony is that each UB just beat the shit out of their respective Tapu.

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    • Alright, fair enough on scaling them to Tapus then. Seeing as this all seems to stem from Solgaleo/Lunala scaling, that would be what should be discussed when arguing against the 4-B scaling, seeing as Necrozma being 4-B seems pretty conclusive and UBs scaling above Tapus seems consistent.

      Granted...it states that it was all of the Tapus fighting Solgaleo/Lunala and they are capable of using Guardian of Alola so I somewhat question if that's how they managed to fight it off, but I am unaware of any lore indicating they used Guardian of Alola or if they had a human that could help them trigger it.

      I am aware that Lunala, in the manga, blasted Necrozma alongside 100% Zygarde, but considering Zygarde already scales to Necrozma...I'm not sure how much power Lunala would have contributed to the blast.

      Overall, the scaling seems like it is mostly based on Solgaleo/Lunala acting as a battery for Necrozma, is that a fair assessment of SM's top tiers scaling?

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    • I don't know if anyone follows the Sword and Shield anime, but in the second episode pikachu was able to slightly faze Lugia, when other fully evolved pokemon couldn't even do anything it.

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    • We gotta remember that Pikachu is a recurring main character and thus is his own unique entity due to being far stronger than all other members of his species. Let’s not mention others like Charizard in an attempt for some weird and inconsistent mass upscaling.

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    • Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff wrote: I don't know if anyone follows the Sword and Shield anime

      No one has, since there's no Sword and Shield anime.

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    • Solgaleo and Lunala scaling to Ultra Necrozma isn't questionable at all.

      In the games Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo/Lunala, the light of Alola and light from Ultra Megalopolis to reach its Ultra form which was stated to have provided light throughout Ultra Space.

      In the anime it's only the power of Solgaleo and Lunala that causes Necrozma to gain it's Ultra form.

      In the manga Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo, Lunala and Ultranecrozium Z to gain it's Ultra form. Also the manga says Ultra Necrozma is "far superior" to the original Necrozma which is stated to have provided light to all of Ultra Space.  Solgaelo took a hit from Ulta Necrozma. Then later Solgaleo, Lunala and Complete Zygarde are able toknock it out after it was weakend from fighting Zygarde.

      So in all three versions at least one of the legendaries is needed and the other sources of energy aren't really quantifable as far as I can tell. So most of the feat of giving the power nessesary must come from them.

      The Ultra Beasts, Tapus and Type: Null/Silvally also should somewhat scale to Solgaleo and Lunala.

      In the games Solgaleo/Lunala attack Fused Lusamine and she gets back up before defusing. Also the Ultra Beasts were a big enough threat for the Tapu's to fight them and in Sun/Moon your hired by the International Police to catch/kill them which implies the Tapus couldn't kill/defeat them . Which is backed up by the quote from Hapu that The real cal howard posted. The Tapus fought against Solgaleo or Lunala in the past and depending on the story they either lost or tied. In USUM their is a secret piece of paper that says the Tapus with a trainer fought Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma using Z-moves and won. Gladion also says Type: Null was born to fight Ultra Beasts .

      In the manga Fused Lusamine with a bunch of Ultra Beasts fought and took an attack from Dawn Wings Necrozma who already absorbed the power of Solgaleo. Stakataka temporarlily held down Necrozma who had absorbed Solgaleo and Lunala's power. Also Gladion originally planned to get the help of the Tapus to defeat the Ultra Beasts but they were stronger than he expected. By this point Gladion has fought and defeated several Ultra Beasts with Type: Null and Silvally who he says were designed to fight and control the Ultra Beasts. Tapu Bulu easily blew away a Balcephalon, Tapu Fini temoporarily fought a Buzzwole and all the the Tapus fought Solgaleo and Lunala at the same time in the past.

      Personally I think the feats for 10% Zygarde & it's cells are a bit shakier sense their just aren't as many but I'll put them here anyway. Zygarde Cells took a hit from Lunala, 10% scared off a group of Nihilego and it caught a Poipole who shortly afterward defeated it.

      As for Pikachu I think At least High 7-A is reasonable (for phasing Lugia and overpowering Gyarados and Tyranitar) and should be 4-B with Z-Moves (overpowered Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt and if I remember correctly it defeated Fused Lusamine with Gigavolt Havoc).

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      DragonGamerZ913 wrote: Island Guardians, UBs, Silvally/Type: Null, Zeraora, and Melmetal, who I believe shouldn't be 4-B and should be dropped to 5-B (since that's what they originally were)

      Based on what were they 5-B? Because the 4-B justification kinda weird anyways, I want to know the 5-B one.

      I don't have the exact justification for 5-B, I just know that that's what Zeraora apparently used to be before the whole "world threatening thing," and since Zeraora had scaled to the Tapus and UBs, he was bumped to 4-B, so based on that, it's easy to tell that the Tapus, UBs, Zeraora, Silvally/Type: Null, and Melmetal would've used to be 5-B.

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    • Cmuell015 wrote:
      Solgaleo and Lunala scaling to Ultra Necrozma isn't questionable at all.

      In the games Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo/Lunala, the light of Alola and light from Ultra Megalopolis to reach its Ultra form which was stated to have provided light throughout Ultra Space.

      In the anime it's only the power of Solgaleo and Lunala that causes Necrozma to gain it's Ultra form.

      In the manga Necrozma needed the power of Solgaleo, Lunala and Ultranecrozium Z to gain it's Ultra form. Also the manga says Ultra Necrozma is "far superior" to the original Necrozma which is stated to have provided light to all of Ultra Space.  Solgaelo took a hit from Ulta Necrozma. Then later Solgaleo, Lunala and Complete Zygarde are able toknock it out after it was weakend from fighting Zygarde.

      So in all three versions at least one of the legendaries is needed and the other sources of energy aren't really quantifable as far as I can tell. So most of the feat of giving the power nessesary must come from them.

      The Ultra Beasts, Tapus and Type: Null/Silvally also should somewhat scale to Solgaleo and Lunala.

      In the games Solgaleo/Lunala attack Fused Lusamine and she gets back up before defusing. Also the Ultra Beasts were a big enough threat for the Tapu's to fight them and in Sun/Moon your hired by the International Police to catch/kill them which implies the Tapus couldn't kill/defeat them . Which is backed up by the quote from Hapu that The real cal howard posted. The Tapus fought against Solgaleo or Lunala in the past and depending on the story they either lost or tied. In USUM their is a secret piece of paper that says the Tapus with a trainer fought Dusk Mane/Dawn Wings Necrozma using Z-moves and won. Gladion also says Type: Null was born to fight Ultra Beasts .

      In the manga Fused Lusamine with a bunch of Ultra Beasts fought and took an attack from Dawn Wings Necrozma who already absorbed the power of Solgaleo. Stakataka temporarlily held down Necrozma who had absorbed Solgaleo and Lunala's power. Also Gladion originally planned to get the help of the Tapus to defeat the Ultra Beasts but they were stronger than he expected. By this point Gladion has fought and defeated several Ultra Beasts with Type: Null and Silvally who he says were designed to fight and control the Ultra Beasts. Tapu Bulu easily blew away a Balcephalon, Tapu Fini temoporarily fought a Buzzwole and all the the Tapus fought Solgaleo and Lunala at the same time in the past.

      Personally I think the feats for 10% Zygarde & it's cells are a bit shakier sense their just aren't as many but I'll put them here anyway. Zygarde Cells took a hit from Lunala, 10% scared off a group of Nihilego and it caught a Poipole who shortly afterward defeated it.

      As for Pikachu I think At least High 7-A is reasonable (for phasing Lugia and overpowering Gyarados and Tyranitar) and should be 4-B with Z-Moves (overpowered Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt and if I remember correctly it defeated Fused Lusamine with Gigavolt Havoc).

      This all makes sense, though I still believe that the UBs shouldn't be 4-B (should go back to being 5-B), so that would make Pikachu's Z-Moves 5-B if that were to happen, but this is all still correct. Also, he defeated Fused Lusamine with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, not Gigavolt Havoc.

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    • Woah, chill on the quoting there. That's a big text wall to repeat.

      As for the justification, yeah it seems fine. I said 'somewhat questionable' by mistake. I can't really contradict Solgaleo and Lunala providing energy to Necrozma.

      I did read up a bit on Island Guardian lore though, and it seems the Tapus actually DID have the aid of a human and Z-Moves against Necrozma. It also claims on Bulbapedia that Solgaleo/Lunala are said to have easily defeated the guardians and gave them Tapunium Z for facing them in battle. Assuming this is accurate, it seems the game scaling for Tapus to Solgaleo/Lunala may be iffy (and as result, UBs).

      I don't know how the manga handles Tapu scaling, but I know in the anime that Tapu Koko manages to intercept and hold off base Necrozma physically, so that could be clear justification for 4-B Tapu scaling, assuming it isn't just an outlier in the anime.

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    • Cmuell015 wrote:

      After taking a look, I think the difference in story (either they tied or lost) makes Tapu scaling to Solgaleo/Lunala questionable, so the best argument for their scaling would be Lusamine and the UBs fighting Dusk Wings Necrozma albeit the Tapus seem to scale below UBs but not terribly so. I think the overall best claim for the Tapus scaling to 4-B would be Anime Tapu Koko intercepting and grabbing Necrozma.

      Ultra Necrozma > Dawn Wings/Dusk Mane Necrozma > Solgaleo/Lunala >/= Ultra Beasts > Tapu Koko >/= Necrozma(?) Seems to be the scaling I'm seeing here right now.

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    • Ionliosite wrote:

      Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff wrote: I don't know if anyone follows the Sword and Shield anime

      No one has, since there's no Sword and Shield anime.

      There is.....

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    • That series explicity doesn't have Sword & Shield on the title.

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    • My mistake. But does it matter? No it doesn't. It's still a continuation from the previous region/series.

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    • I like how not a single person in this thread took the actual time to answer the OP's question before things started to unravel to a point that didn't need to happen. 

      Pikachu's High 6-A tiering comes it being empowered by the blue orb to control Groudon and to counter attacks from Kygore. Pikachu on it's own doesn't scale to High 6-A at all, only through absorbing the blue orb.

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    • Peter "Quicksilver" Maximoff wrote: My mistake. But does it matter? No it doesn't. It's still a continuation from the previous region/series.

      It doesn't matter, but still, the fact you said there was a Sword & Shield is wrong, since that series explicity is named simply "Pocket Monsters", making it share title with the original seires had.

      And of course it's a continuation from the previous series, what else would it be?

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    • Dude.....its not that deep.

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    • What isn't "that deep"?

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      I like how not a single person in this thread took the actual time to answer the OP's question before things started to unravel to a point that didn't need to happen. 

      Pikachu's High 6-A tiering comes it being empowered by the blue orb to control Groudon and to counter attacks from Kygore. Pikachu on it's own doesn't scale to High 6-A at all, only through absorbing the blue orb.

      My mistake on that one. I forgot that the High 6-A tiering was from Pikachu being empowered by the Blue Orb. In that case, I'm referring to him being at only "At least 7-A"

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    • @Ionliosite It can be referred to as the Pokmeon Sword and Shield anime or as Pokemon 2019, it really doesn't matter.

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    • DragonGamerZ913 wrote: It can be referred to as the Pokmeon Sword and Shield anime

      It never has been refered by that name tho. Only simply "Pocket Monsters". It's even just that on the logo.

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    • There's no reason for a discussion about a title to be dragged out like this. People refer to it as such because it's in line with the Sword and Shield games. Enough title discussion.

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    • DragonGamerZ913 wrote:

      People refer to it as such because it's in line with the Sword and Shield games.

      Yeah, but it isn't called like that. So I can let this topic die knowing I'm the one who's right.

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    • Saying you can "let this topic die knowing I'm the one who's right" is really childish. You really didn't need to let the topic drag on just to make a point of being right, but I digress.

      Anyway, it seems we've come to an agreement on Ash's Pikachu being at least High 7-A (idk about this, but I'm considering that there should be a "possibly 6-C" added in, given that he has been shown to cause Lugia, who is at least 6-B, to flinch from his Thunderbolt), but what about with Z-Moves? Since Tapu Koko's Guardian of Alola was overpowered by Pikachu's 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, Fused Lusamine was defeated with the same move, and his Gigavolt Havoc, together with Zeraora's, forced Guzzlord back through an Ultra Wormhole, meaning that this can't be considered an outlier due to Pikachu's Z-Moves scaling consistently to characters of this strength.

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    • Just because somethings done a lot doesn't mean its not an outlier. 

      For Pikachu's Z-Moves to be considered 4-B, you would have to make an argument for Z-moves in general being 4-B. And we also don't accept that as far as im aware. 

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    • Z-Moves in general wouldn't be 4-B. It depends on the Z-Move used and the Pokemon using it. Yes, Pikachu's Z-Moves have defeated 4-B characters, but that's also because of it building on Pikachu's own strength (not to mention that 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is one of the most powerful Z-Moves there is), whereas Lillie's Vulpix barely harmed Gladion's Umbreon with its own Z-Move. That kind of argument simply can't be made.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:
      Just because somethings done a lot doesn't mean its not an outlier. 

      For Pikachu's Z-Moves to be considered 4-B, you would have to make an argument for Z-moves in general being 4-B. And we also don't accept that as far as im aware. 

      Pikachu's other Z-Moves don't have 4-B scaling outside of contributing half the power to overpower a Guzzlord. Its 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt is consistently depicted as vastly superior to Gigavolt Havoc and is treated as a massive upgrade to it in-universe, at least as far as I can tell.

      I think at least High 7-A, likely higher is most reasonable. We can confirm Pikachu is at least high-end High 7-A and can make an at least 6-B flinch from a Thunderbolt, so it's definitely reasonable to say it's likely higher than High 7-A.

      As for its other scaling, I think the best we can do is just making Pikachu 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt, seeing as it one-shot Guardian of Alola and Nihilego with it. There is argument for Pikachu to be 4-B with other Z-Moves such as Gigavolt Havoc but I honestly think that topic, in itself, should be separated from upgrading to at least High 7-A and 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt.

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    • I pretty much agree with all of this since nothing can really be done about the Tapus and UBs' wack power scaling. So, to confirm, we're talking: "At least High 7-A, likely higher, higher with Z-Moves or when absorbing electricity, 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt"?

      In that case, now what? I'm pretty new to the VS Battles Wiki, so do we just wait for an admin or someone to approve this or?

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    • Yes, you need admin approval before doing anything with the stats of a profile.

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    • Alright, gotcha.

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    • Cal has already posted here, so we'll see if he pops in later and what he thinks about approving this.

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    • Is there any way to draw attention to this thread so we can get approval (or not) for this? It's been almost 2 weeks lol

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    • Yes, call administrators knowledgable on Pokémon

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    • I think Cal would be good, and Cal's already posted on here as said before. How would you call an admin though? As I've said before, I'm new to this whole thing

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    • You go to their walls and ask them to come here, that's how you call them.

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    • Welp... it's been almost 2 months and nothing's happened in terms of tier changes (yes, I did go to ask Cal for help)

      So um... frick

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    • Rip

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    • Pikachu can't effect D-Max/G-Max Pokemon, but his raw power was capable of clashing with Leon's Charizard (albeit losing end) and was able to heavily resist Charizard's Flamethrower with Thunderbolt. Assuming Leon wasn't holding back, it seems pretty reasonable to assume the gap between their aces is less than a stomp gap, due to Pikachu's ability to recover from attacks, ability to resist clashes, etc.

      Leon is also officially the strongest trainer in the world, in the anime, due to defeating Lance in the World Tournament, and arguments were made IIRC that all Champion-level trainers should be 4-B and, Leon stands at the absolute pinnacle.

      Overall, Ash's Pikachu (and his Alola team, due to keeping up beforehand) should all be scaled up to Champion-levels, IMO.

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    • Leon was very likely not holding back, as he even said after the battle that battles are no fun when they're not serious, implying that he was going all-out. Plus, it makes sense for the gap between Ash and Leon is less than a stomp gap since Ash himself is now a Champion.

      I don't know about all Champions being 4-B, that's a topic for another time, but the stuff about 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt still stands, but I think the tiering should be updated, especially to match the fact that Pikachu can Gigantamax. In conclusion, what I think it should be is:

      At least High 7-A, likely higherHigher with Z-Moves, Gigantamax, or when absorbing electricity. 4-B with 10,000,000 Volt Thunderbolt

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    • Reasonable enough, yes. The gap between Ash and Leon is much smaller than the gap between an E4 and their respective Champion, then.

      • Flint stomped Ash's Pikachu with Infernape, but Pikachu endured many blows before going down (larger gap than Ash and Leon, due to Pikachu not matching well in clashes)
      • Cynthia defeated Flint with two of her pokemon taken out (same gap as DP Ash and Tobias)
      • Alain defeated Malva's ace
      • Diantha defeated Wikstrom's Mega Scizor with her Mega Gardevoir's Moonblast, despite a type disadvantage her Gardevoir defeated the ace of an E4 with seemingly great ease.
      • XY Ash = Alain, so XY Ash is akin to E4-level but the gap between him and champions like Diantha and Cynthia should be akin to DP Ash and Tobias
      • SM Ash grew far stronger over the course of Alola (consistently stated in-universe) to the extent that he went from being blitzed by Tapu Koko to matching Tapu Koko's speed
      • PM Ash's gap with the World Champion is lesser than the gap between an E4 and Champion

      Therefore the scaling chain should go something like:

      Leon >/= Lance > Diantha ~ Cynthia ~ Steven ~ Alder > PM Ash > SM Ash >> Malva = Alain = XY Ash = Flint >> DP Ash

      We can't really gauge how large the gap between Ash and the other Champions is, but it at least isn't a curbstomp gap, due to Ash's Pikachu holding up against Leon's Charizard, when Leon is the strongest champion.

      Considering Ash's goal is to enter the World Tournament and defeat Leon, it's very likely that he will grow much stronger over the course of PM, and possibly be capable of challenging Leon properly. Man, it's weird to imagine Ash reaching the level of the strongest trainer after so many years.

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    • First off, yes, that would be insane to think about. Second, the only think I have against this scaling is Ash's fight with Diantha. This scaling seems to be relative to Ash's Pikachu, but Ash's Greninja actually overwhelmed Diantha's Gardevoir and arguably could've won if they didn't pass out.

      Besides this, the scaling seems spot on

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    • Later in the episode, when Team Rocket captures Diantha's Gardevoir, Diantha orders her Gardevoir to stop restraining, and she went from being unable to break TR's restraints to shattering them easily. It seems like Diantha was holding back against Ash.

      Although, it was Imperfect Ash-Greninja that held up against Diantha's suppressed Mega Gardevoir. Ash-Greninja's complete power might hold up similarly against her Gardevoir.

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    • I know about that "use your full power" statement, but at the same time, Gardevoir seemed to have to play defensively for most of the fight since, well... Ash-Greninja was going sicko mode on it. Heck, she even looked genuinely shocked to see that Greninja's Water Shuriken overpowered Gardevoir's Shadow Ball.

      But that's a topic for another time.

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    • A FANDOM user
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