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    • What are Dracula’s incap options?

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    • Following

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    • Iirc, doesn't he have passive Transmutation, Possession and Corruption? (iirc, he passively makes the Castle which has these affects)

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    • Sonic resists Transmutation and are Dracule’s powers Magic based?

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    • You should probably ask a knowledgable member of Castlevania

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    • What's the source on Sonic resisting transmutation? 

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    • Resistance to Transmutation (The power of Chaos Emeralds and their Chaos Energy can revert and block out transfigurations and mutations)

      And Power Rings are made from the Super Emeralds.

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    • Ah ok, I just wanted to gauge the potency the match was dealing with.

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    • Are all Dracula’s abilities Low 2-C and Magic based?

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    • I'll have to ask Speedster to comment here, but I'm pretty sure this is just going to end off like Death vs Sonic either with an Incon or a win for Dracula. This isn't a vote yet btw.

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    • I heard Dracula can put people to sleep.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CX45pYvxDiA

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    • Dracula has powers that aren't magic based, sooo Sonic gets put to sleep.

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    • Is the sleep thing magic based? How does Dracula put Sonic to sleep?

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    • No, it's not magic based. He can use Lullaby to put Sonic to sleep via singing.

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    • I’m not seeing Lullaby in Dracula’s techniques. Is this an ability from another monster and Dracula can use it via Summoning or no?

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    • It's an ability from a monster which Dracula would have since all beings of chaos get their powers from him. Dracula already has Sleep Manip on his profile, this is just a variation of it that jsnt magic based.

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    • ? How does that work? Is Dracula’s main power magic or not?

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    • His main power is conceptual via Power of Dominace, and said power gives him powers of all monsters, which includes non magic based abilities such as Lullaby. I've literally been using Lullaby because that isn't magic based.

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    • Power of Dominance: The Power of Dominance is the primary ability of the Dark Lord. Through it, Dracula gains absolute control over the souls of demons. As Dark Lord, Dracula's will extends across all demons, and they owe their very existence to Dracula's power, being as much a part of him as Dracula's own Demon Castle. With the Power of Dominance, Dracula can bend the demonic spirits to his will, absorb the souls of demons to obtain their powers, or even erase their souls from existence.

      Huh. Dracula is going to need prep time to absorb the soul of the monster with Lullaby.

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    • No he doesn't, he literally has absolute control of over all the souls of demons. That's being based off of Soma's use of it, in which he didn't have Dracula's powers and severed his connection to Chaos.

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    • I can only follow the wiki page’s description unless you have scans.

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    • Uh the page does say it, the text you bolded even says Dracula's will is across all demons and that they owe their powers to him. The soul Absorption part is referring to an application it can be used for.

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    • Yeah, but are we allowing outside help?

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    • Why would it be outside help? Their powers are already part of his abilities.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      It's not outside help, the profile literally has it listed like that as well. Sonic doesn't really have a defense against Sleep Manipulation since it's an Incap move, Dracula FRA then.

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    • Also unlike with Death, Dracula has a ridiculously absurd AP advantage, so that's an option if he needs to incap Sonic with it.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      It's not outside help, the profile literally has it listed like that as well. Sonic doesn't really have a defense against Sleep Manipulation since it's an Incap move, Dracula FRA then.

      Sonic’s wiki page will be listed with Ice Manipulation but it would only be able to be used via Summoning. Has Dracula been shown to naturally use abilities from monsters without absorbing them?

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    • Drac fra

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    • Dracula FRA

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      That's because other Staff didn't run that by yet. Powers of summons typically aren't listed on the pages, rather just a link profiles or a note is made. Speedster already gave a reason as to why he would naturally have those abilities. It's literally similar to how Yhwach has also the abilities of the Sternritter because they were abilities he gave them that he possessed himself.

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    • 4 for Dracula

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    • Modernmyrmidon
      Modernmyrmidon removed this reply because:
      Not what I meant to say
      22:25, November 22, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Drac FRA

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    • 2 more

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    • Dracula FRA 

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    • 1 left

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      That's because other Staff didn't run that by yet. Powers of summons typically aren't listed on the pages, rather just a link profiles or a note is made. Speedster already gave a reason as to why he would naturally have those abilities. It's literally similar to how Yhwach has also the abilities of the Sternritter because they were abilities he gave them that he possessed himself.

      “Reason Speedster gave as to why he would naturally possess those abilities”. All Speedster said was Dracula’s will was over all the monsters, sounds like it’s just command over the monsters. And he said the monsters owe their power to him, but didn’t specify if Dracula has used those same powers without absorbing the monsters.

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    • “Dracula can bend the demonic spirits to his will, absorb the souls of demons to obtain their powers,”

      I don’t see why Dracula needs to absorb the souls of the demons he gave his powers to if he already possesses those powers.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      "Uh the page does say it, the text you bolded even says Dracula's will is across all demons and that they owe their powers to him"

      Speedster said they owe their powers to Dracula, that's clearly supported via the fact it's listed like that on the page. There are no notes once again that such a thing was done under Summoning, meaning the wiki description is most likely flawed under those circumstances. Owing their power to him would imply that those were abilities he gave them. Also, how is Sonic going to resisting the effects of the castle? He only resists the Transmutation aspect, he becomes one of Dracula's monsters otherwise due to the Possession and Corruption.

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    • He gave them their powers but what evidence is there that he still have those powers after he gave the demons their power?

      The wiki clearly states Dracula absorbs the souls of the demons he gave the powers to to re-obtain their powers.

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    • The Castlevania wiki list Dracula’s castle as the symbol of Dracula’s magic.

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    • Bump

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    • Oh, I’ll leave my vote.

      Sonic FRA

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    • What reasons?

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    • Stalker Maggot wrote: What reasons?

      • 1. Dracula’s vs battle wiki states that he absorbs his demons to obtain their powers, which means he doesn’t have the non-magic SleepHax on him as a default power.
      1B27C16A-6D5B-47DE-B106-053C10DE69B6

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      • 2. Dracula’s Castle’s Wiki states its the Symbol of Dracula’s magic, meaning that it’s Haxes are Magic based. Which Sonic resists.
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    • He literally doesn't absorb them to take their powers, he has them, once again. Dracula is stated to be evil itself so many times, and statements of having absolute control over the forces of chaos and darkness. Soma has to absorb their souls to use them in the first place, his own profile makes it clear between how Dracula has them and Soma doesn't. 

      The wiki is wrong. The actual statement says the castle is a symbol of Dracula's dark power, not magic. His power comes from the concept of chaos. 
      LO06zwW
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    • TheSpeedster96 wrote: Dracula is stated to be evil itself so many times, and statements of having absolute control over the forces of chaos and darkness.

      Archie Eggman is referred to many times in the story as the worst evil the world has ever know. Worst then the villain Mogul who has killed gods and become a god himself. Eggman is stated to having absolute control of his robots and machines. Does those statements of absolute control mean Eggman has the same abilities as his creations? No!

      TheSpeedster96 wrote: Soma has to absorb their souls to use them in the first place, his own profile makes it clear between how Dracula has them and Soma doesn't.

      No they don’t.

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    • Huge false equivalency. Being evil incarnate=/=the worst evil, so please debunk how Dracula, the physical like avatar of Chaos (which literally all hatred and evil stem from), can't be the physical embodiment of evil. Eggman's robots aren't created from a concept, demons are, and serve as extensions of Dracula. Also, the second scan you're trying to use as evidence literally states:

      "When submitting to Chaos and turning to his dark side, Soma is reborn as Dracula once again and has complete control over demons and the countless souls of the abyss."

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    • The Concept of Chaos was described by others to be evil, not that it was actually the Concept of Evil at the same time.

      Dracula was described evil incarnate by others, not that he was actually part of the Concept of Evil (he had love in his heart at one point), but from the Concept of Chaos that acted against those who saw him as “evil”.

      Eggman was described the worst evil by others, even though he was just mad genius. (He never had love in his cold heart.)

      ____________________________________________________ (Back to the subject I actually want to debate.)

      Why does “Eggman's robots aren't created from a concept, demons are, and serve as extensions of Dracula.” Translate to mean “Dracula can duplicate his powers to the monsters and still would absorb them to use their powers” again?

      Also, why does “complete control over demons and the countless souls of the abyss.” translates to mean “Controlling over beings like Hypno controlling a Pokemon, you can get all their powers”?

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    • Uh yes it is. Alucard describes the Dark Lord as something opposite to God, evil itself. Chaos is "the root of all chaotic things", they're one in the same.

      Arikado: The path you took was the most challenging one. You did well. For God to be good, evil is an absolute necessity in this world. In the future, someone may follow again in Dracula's dark footsteps. At that time, perhaps we'll meet again. Farewell... In my mother's name, I send thanks to you.

      He's described as evil itself by the story, the narrator. Dracula's other statements of being the "personification of hatred", "god of darkness", "the dark lord", "messenger of chaos", etc literally reiterates this point.

      Demons are born out of chaos, Dracula is the physical avatar of chaos, they're connected to him, extensions. Their powers are his, that's the entire point of being the Dark Lord. Complete control over demons and souls in the abyss is supporting evidence for what I was saying, control to the point he controls every aspect of them since they're beings of chaos.

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    • I'm not sure why we wouldn't be allowing Dracula to already have these abilities regardless. I'm rather sure there's absolutely no reason to not give him the abilities even if we went by that erroneous description of the Power of Dominance. That would literally be like depriving someone of abilities granted from Standard Equipment.

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    • @TheSpeedster96 I still have problems with how describing someone as evil is the same as being the concept of evil, when Dracula and his powers are clearly from the Concept of Chaos but that doesn’t matter to this discussion.

      @Inverted Tempest either show proof Dracula can use his demon’s abilities without absorbing them first or make a CRT.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Why would I have to make a CRT? The entire point of the Power of Dominance was literally mentioned that Soma has to collect those abilities since he was Dracula's reincarnation but had yet to fully become the Dark Lord. Soma already gets all of these abilities such as Deathscythe  and in the ending, he later became Dracula. I don't need to make a CRT when that's literally already given to him via this reason, you've just been told like ten times already that this is why the abilities are applied to the profile and that's why Dracula retains them.

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    • Look, I just don’t know. I’ve been looking on different wiki’s, and they don’t mention he can use abilities from his demons without absorbing them.

      https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Dracula/Abilities

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      But I already listed an example and gave links as to why he would have them as Dracula. That just makes the wikis flawed.

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    • I don’t know why you are using Deathschthe as a supporting link, when it’s description reads “Some playable characters are able to use this attack as well, usually obtained after defeating Death.”

      And the becoming Dracula only after getting defeated by the Concept of Chaos doesn’t mean all Dracula’s have those abilities. Or even...

      I just like to see more evidence, as I can’t find them on the wiki’s. Soma becoming Dracula doesn’t seem a solid of proof that Dracula has those abilities in other incarnation.

      Is Soma the only one who has displayed this?

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    • I don’t know why you are using Deathschthe as a supporting link, when it’s description reads “Some playable characters are able to use this attack as well, usually obtained after defeating Death.”

      Because it literally mentions he got Death's abilities by taking his soul. Read the wiki link I sent, "Soma Cruz is able to use this attack after gaining Death's soul in Castlevania: Aria of SorrowDawn of Sorrow and Harmony of DespairCharlotte Aulin is also able to learn this spell by blocking Death's attack with her Book of Binding in Harmony of Despair." That's literally just in reference to how the Power of Dominance works at least going by your wiki links. Hell, the fucking page itself shows a picture of Soma using the technique. It's very clear he has the abilities collected just as an example of that.

      And the becoming Dracula only after getting defeated by the Concept of Chaos doesn’t mean all Dracula’s have those abilities. Or even...

      Look down below, I clearly refute this point down there. All of the appearances of Dracula share that connection to Chaos, Soma fully inherited that connection finally when he had lost in the ending.

      I just like to see more evidence, as I can’t find them on the wiki’s. Soma becoming Dracula doesn’t seem a solid of proof that Dracula has those abilities in other incarnation.

      What other evidence do you remotely want? I already gave you the fact he becomes Dracula by the end of AoS and gave examples of abilities he attained already via the Power of Dominance. I would assume Speedster already has scans going against this notion entirely, but he doesn't seem to want to be available at the moment. What I gave is enough to contextually suffice and your point has no merit if it's based off just a misunderstanding from wiki material. Also, we don't base Dracula on specific incarnations, it's a composited version, similar to Ganondorf from the Legend of Zelda. We don't ask, "Well only Ocarina of Time Ganondorf showed that feat, can you show it applies to other incarnations as well?" That's legitimately a dumb question given that there are no keys on Dracula's profile to begin with to differentiate versions.

      Is Soma the only one who has displayed this?

      I see no relevance in this question given what I've already covered. I would have to consult with Speedster on this if I can get the chance.

      Also, from what I've seen, there's still been a lack of refutes regarding the fact Sonic just gets possessed and corrupted by the castle alone since we've already clarified that it didn't come from a magical origin and that was just the wiki's assumption when the scan directly contradicted what it said. I fail again to see how this isn't a massive stomp for Dracula.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      I don’t know why you are using Deathschthe as a supporting link, when it’s description reads “Some playable characters are able to use this attack as well, usually obtained after defeating Death.”
      Because it literally mentions he got Death's abilities by taking his soul. Read the wiki link I sent, "Soma Cruz is able to use this attack after gaining Death's soul in Castlevania: Aria of SorrowDawn of Sorrow and Harmony of DespairCharlotte Aulin is also able to learn this spell by blocking Death's attack with her Book of Binding in Harmony of Despair." That's literally just in reference to how the Power of Dominance works at least going by your wiki links. Hell, the fucking page itself shows a picture of Soma using the technique. It's very clear he has the abilities collected just as an example of that.

      And it also said “Some playable characters are able to use this attack as well, usually obtained after defeating Death.”

      I only pointing this out because you were using it a support evidence that Dracula inherently has this ability, when the wiki description doesn’t support that.

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    • My boy Drac FRA.

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    • Grace

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    • Noisestorm - Crab Rave Monstercat Release

      Noisestorm - Crab Rave Monstercat Release

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      I just like to see more evidence, as I can’t find them on the wiki’s. Soma becoming Dracula doesn’t seem a solid of proof that Dracula has those abilities in other incarnation.

      What other evidence do you remotely want? I already gave you the fact he becomes Dracula by the end of AoS and gave examples of abilities he attained already via the Power of Dominance. I would assume Speedster already has scans going against this notion entirely, but he doesn't seem to want to be available at the moment. What I gave is enough to contextually suffice and your point has no merit if it's based off just a misunderstanding from wiki material. Also, we don't base Dracula on specific incarnations, it's a composited version, similar to Ganondorf from the Legend of Zelda. We don't ask, "Well only Ocarina of Time Ganondorf showed that feat, can you show it applies to other incarnations as well?" That's legitimately a dumb question given that there are no keys on Dracula's profile to begin with to differentiate versions.

      Look, I just want evidence of a statement or something confirming Soma Dracula (who has absorbed abilities from demons throughout the game) has the same powers and abilities as non-Soma Dracula. Basically, Soma is peak Dracula but is Soma Dracula the same level of power as other Dracula’s, or above them?

      Also, Ganondorf didn’t die at the end of ocarina. Wind Waker, Twilight and Fallen down timeline are Ocarina Ganondorf. Those aren’t reincarnations.

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    • Oh. Damn, I should have paid more attention to the Lullaby’s wiki.

      Lullaby is an Innocent Devil ability in Castlevania: Curse of Darkness. It can be learned by the Comet Star Fairy-Type evolution. It is a support skill capable of sending the surrounding enemies to sleep.”

      “An Innocent Devil is a creature that can only be created by a Devil Forgemaster, and are said to be created through even the mere "wisp of conjured matter".”

      “A Devil Forgemaster (悪魔精錬士, Akuma Sērenshi?) is a human trained in the dark arts and, akin to their namesake, bears the ability to create and forge demonic and wicked creatures.”

      “While not much is said about them within the series, Devil Forgemasters are not mere sorcerers; they are not just trained in black magic, but also in the arts of alchemy and spiritual metaphysics, being able to craft massive weapons and arsenals from mere prime and raw materials of nearly any sort, as well as creating magical living beings with the forbidden knowledge they possess.

      Their creations bear the namesake of "Innocent Devils", creatures summoned and born of darkness, ranging from original and self-made, to even the formerly deceased and revived. All created beings hold strict and utter loyalty to their respective Forgemaster and grow in power through battle and destruction.

      Their ranks having been in the employ of Dracula himself, Devil Forgemasters may also be responsible for the mass creation of many of the series' enemies and fiends alongside Dracula's and Castlevania's own influence and summoning of evil creatures, although this is mere speculation.“

      ____

      ____

      What were the FRA’s reasonings again? That Dracula can inherently use Lullaby because...?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Except the wiki link clearly showed that Soma gained his from the Power of Dominance. What you're quoting is absolutely irrelevant and just outright misleading.

      Why does it remotely matter if Dark Lord Soma is even above a typical Dracula? He naturally would just be stronger by virtue that each Resurrection of Dracula is physically stronger than the last, but he doesn't have completely unique abilities from the rest. That's still a version of Dracula as well.

      You realize there's more than just those Ganondorfs, right? There's also the FSA one for example. And again, this is just to go over the fact profiles like this are meant to go over a composited incarnation. What I said isn't wrong and has no reason to be opposed as such.

      Your point on Lullaby was what exactly? You realize the quotes you provided ouright acknowledge they are part of Dracula's army and are made of pure darkness, right? That means is still applies to Dracula. I'm not sure what you were pushing for here.

      Lullaby still works and there was STILL a lack of addressal of the castle's effects.

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    • TheSpeedster96
      TheSpeedster96 removed this reply because:
      Wasnt needed anymore
      07:01, November 30, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The Power Rings give Sonic immunity to Corruption as Sonic has them as Standard Equipment and Sonic has resisted Possession from Dr. Finitevus.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote: Your point on Lullaby was what exactly? You realize the quotes you provided ouright acknowledge they are part of Dracula's army and are made of pure darkness, right?

      Yes, so?

      Inverted Tempest wrote: That means is still applies to Dracula. I'm not sure what you were pushing for here.

      What? How does this quote “Devil Forgemasters are not mere sorcerers; they are not just trained in black magic, but also in the arts of alchemy and spiritual metaphysics, being able to craft massive weapons and arsenals from mere prime and raw materials of nearly any sort, as well as creating magical living beings with the forbidden knowledge they possess.” prove Dracula can use the innocent Devil’s powers without absorption?

      When they were stated their creation don’t solely come from the power of Dracula’s darkness.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      K, what type of Corruption? Dracula's corruption entails physical, mental, and spiritual. The reverting doesn't seem to be clarified on the page of the Power Rings, so I'd like to what type they actually are. If it doesn't cover all three, then Dracula's Corruption would work plain and simple.

      Dracula's Possession isn't just spiritual, which is what Enerjak's is. Sonic would resist that very specific type and that wouldn't give him a resistance to the Possession of the castle. This is also neglecting the fact that Sonic doesn't even have that listed on his profile at all. The only thing mentioned is that he has resistance to mind hax because he was unaffected by a hex that affected Knuckles and allowed him to possess Knuckles. The possession comes as a side effect if anything not from Finitevus's hex but from Enerjak himself. Therefore, Sonic doesn't scale to such a resistance and it's a completely moot point even if it were valid or not.

      "Yes, so?" doesn't appear to be a refutation. Speedster already gave you links with how Dracula was the embodiment of evil itself, even mentioning how his powers are described as from the darkness. Evil and darkness are very much tied to each other in the verse, and the enemies you described were literally called pure darkness. It's even stated the Forgemasters are employed into Dracula's ranks, and by extension those creation which are demons. 

      I think you literally missed the glaring contradiction where it says, "Their creations bear the namesake of "Innocent Devils", creatures summoned and born of darkness, ranging from original and self-made, to even the formerly deceased and revived. All created beings hold strict and utter loyalty to their respective Forgemaster and grow in power through battle and destruction." Hmmmm... "Devil"? "Born of Darkness"? Almost like they are under his control...

      If I must even give evidence for this, let's directly take text from Dawn of Sorrow the Castlevania game itself.

      "Soma Cruz: ...Yes. I fell for your ruse. Why would you want to resurrect the dark lord?

      Celia Fortner: We do not desire the dark lord, per se. For god to be perfectly good, there must be a being of perfect darkness.

      Soma Cruz: That has nothing to do with me. If this world does need a perfect dark being, one should emerge. Isn't that how it works?

      Celia Fortner: Perhaps that is so. And perhaps it is not. What is true, however, is that the power of darkness steadily grows faint. The lord of darkness must be enthroned without fail. And not a moment too soon." - https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Celia_Fortner/Dialogue

      The simple fact is, I honestly don't think this should be added to the profile of either of these two. It's clearly abundant that even the castle's passives are too much for Archie Sonic. If those get bypassed for resistances, then I guess this would just be added as a win for Dracula given that Lullaby has been established to be Sonic's undoing. Nonetheless, the Dracula votes stay valid.

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    • Ok, I have to respond to this in pieces. I don’t understand why people post every different subject in one post. It makes it hard to the opposing debater to tackle each point. I’ll have to tackle each issue at one at a time.

      Inverted Tempest wrote: K, what type of Corruption? Dracula's corruption entails physical, mental, and spiritual. The reverting doesn't seem to be clarified on the page of the Power Rings, so I'd like to what type they actually are. If it doesn't cover all three, then Dracula's Corruption would work plain and simple.

      “Power Rings can block out and revert Transmutation, Matter Manipulation, Biological Manipulation, Corruption, and Mind Manipulation.”

      If the corruption falls under Biological, Matter, or Mind, Sonic resist it. If it’s spiritual, Sonic also resist it.

      D0E2C8E0-8316-46EB-AB29-8E0B811D9CEB
      719BED4A-C821-41DB-BDB1-945D692F9034

      _______________________________

      Inverted Tempest wrote: Dracula's Possession isn't just spiritual, which is what Enerjak's is. Sonic would resist that very specific type and that wouldn't give him a resistance to the Possession of the castle. This is also neglecting the fact that Sonic doesn't even have that listed on his profile at all. The only thing mentioned is that he has resistance to mind hax because he was unaffected by a hex that affected Knuckles and allowed him to possess Knuckles. The possession comes as a side effect if anything not from Finitevus's hex but from Enerjak himself. Therefore, Sonic doesn't scale to such a resistance and it's a completely moot point even if it were valid or not.

      Possession is the ability of a character to take control of another character by entering their mind, body, or soul. It is different from mind control, as it is done internally instead of externally. Traditionally in folklore and fiction, demons and ghosts most often have this power. Possession allows for many characters to escape death by hopping from one body to another, making it difficult to kill them.

      Types

      Mental Possession: The user possesses the victim by entering their mind or projecting their consciousness into their body so that they can control them. Physical Possession: The user possesses the victim by entering their body and controlling them from the inside out. Spiritual Possession: The user possesses the victim by entering their body with their own soul and taking control of their actions.”

      Sonic’s resistance to mental or spiritual are explained by the Power rings ^ as Power Rings scale to each other. However, Base Sonic doesn’t have resistance to a non-magic physical possession, such as the one time Eggman controlled Sonic by not affecting his mind or spirit but controlling Sonic through his nervous system.

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    • Let’s tackle the subject of Corruption and Possession first, as the Lullaby is looking to be a subjective issue.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Because it clogs threads and there's only a 500 post limit.

      K, so there seems to be no resistance at all to the spiritual part of Dracula's corruption since it can influence even souls. Also, the problem with the Power Ring is that when Sonic was roboticized to become Mecha Sonic, the only thing the OBPR did was preserve his mental essence and didn't allow him to actually resist the effects. It was used to undo them, but it required an outside assistance from somebody else to do so. The only outside help Sonic would be able to remotely get here to help would be Dulcy and Summoning her would get her literally under the exact same effects of the castle. Therefore, it's not combat applicable and can't be used for Sonic being able to resist the castle's effects, especially since they're passive and he wouldn't be able to draw a Power Ring out like that. This option is still on the table.

      Then Dracula's Possession also still affects Sonic as well if you admit that. We already covered the Power Ring stuff isn't applicable in this case as well before. I am failing to see where the resistance to anything spiritual is mentioned as well. I already addressed the fact Sonic isn't genuinely resisting anything spiritual there, the most that happened was mind hax which still isn't covering what Dracula does physically and spiritually to Sonic.

      This is still a stomp for Dracula.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote: K, so there seems to be no resistance at all to the spiritual part of Dracula's corruption since it can influence even souls. Also, the problem with the Power Ring is that when Sonic was roboticized to become Mecha Sonic, the only thing the OBPR did was preserve his mental essence and didn't allow him to actually resist the effects.

      Fair, Sonic doesn’t have resistance to Biological Manipulation but he has always been able to retain his speed. In order for Bio Manip. to work, it has to incap him, prevent him from further fighting. Which means, it needs to effect his mind as well.

      And the OBPR protects Sonic’s Life Force, which is spiritual in nature.

      Inverted Tempest wrote: Then Dracula's Possession also still affects Sonic as well if you admit that. We already covered the Power Ring stuff isn't applicable in this case as well before. I am failing to see where the resistance to anything spiritual is mentioned as well. I already addressed the fact Sonic isn't genuinely resisting anything spiritual there, the most that happened was mind hax which still isn't covering what Dracula does physically and spiritually to Sonic.

      Power Over Humans: Vampires are influential and seductive creatures, whose dark aura extends into the hearts and minds of men. They can easily control human minds, often passively, turning them into their mindless slaves, possessing them, or even charming them.”

      “Human souls can also be easily controlled by vampires,”

      I know with verses equalized that powers should fundamentally work on other verses but Archie Sonic has already established that Mobians and Humans are fundamentally different on a spiritual level with the 2-A weapon, “The Sword of Acorns” in its own lore.

      1615375B-0F00-41DE-A9E8-CF8675A36CE5
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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      What does retaining his speed have to do with anything? Also, no, incap just implies he can no longer fight anymore, it's nothing about has to not be able to move. Rohan Kishibe can write into somebody like Koichi, "You cannot attack Rohan Kishibe," and that still counts as incap because Koichi can no longer fight him with any of his abilities. As long as Sonic is being affected and can no longer fight, in this case he would become one of Dracula's servants, then he'd lose plain and simple. Also, the OBPR stored his essence, it didn't remotely try to prevent the Roboticization. It would still affect Sonic since he has no way of using it after it's done to undo it.

      Uh, the castle's effects aren't just limited to humans lol. It affects shit like owls, mollusks, and insects by corrupting them into something else and possessing them to make into Dracula's minions. Your point is completely irrelevant and based on the falsehood idea that it only affects humans. There's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't affect Sonic.

      Again, Dracula stomps.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote: What does retaining his speed have to do with anything? Also, no, incap just implies he can no longer fight anymore, it's nothing about has to not be able to move. Rohan Kishibe can write into somebody like Koichi, "You cannot attack Rohan Kishibe," and that still counts as incap because Koichi can no longer fight him with any of his abilities. As long as Sonic is being affected and can no longer fight, in this case he would become one of Dracula's servants, then he'd lose plain and simple. Also, the OBPR stored his essence, it didn't remotely try to prevent the Roboticization. It would still affect Sonic since he has no way of using it after it's done to undo it.

      Sonic would still need to be incap for 24 hours under VSBW rules for it to be Dracula’s victory and Sonic was breaking through Robotnik’s “Brain-Burn-Thru software“ in under an hour. Also, incaps don’t work if they are permanent, as Sonic’s FateHax always allows Sonic to win in the end.

      For him to able to write "You cannot attack Rohan Kishibe," he would need to affect Sonic only on biological way without needed to use Sonic’s mind or spirit.

      Inverted Tempest wrote: Uh, the castle's effects aren't just limited to humans lol. It affects shit like owls, mollusks, and insects by corrupting them into something else and possessing them to make into Dracula's minions. Your point is completely irrelevant and based on the falsehood idea that it only affects humans. There's absolutely no reason why it wouldn't affect Sonic.

      You are using the argument “if someone has the power to control all animals, they can control humans too”.

      Power Over Humans states it’s power over humans. It’s not saying it’s power over anything with a soul. It’s says humans while Archie has separated a Mobian’s soul from a Human’s soul being fundamentally different to each other on a 2-A scale.

      Also, looking at their descriptions:

      “The Owl is an enemy in the Castlevania series. It is a local barnyard owl mutated by the castle's influence. The magic that empowers this owl also spurs it to violence.“

      ACFA5300-F362-42FF-AC27-5DBFCE85E950

      Dracula has magic too. Even if the Castle has its power based on the concept of Chaos, multiple sources are saying magic was used.

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    • I’m claiming this match Sonic’s stomps.

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    • Grace is over..

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Show Sonic was breaking out of a Corruption that is biologically based. We already went over why Sonic won't be resisting on a spiritual level as well given how the Power Ring is now accepted in how it works. Also, you'd need to especially show that he could defend against a non-physical corruption especially. Dracula's not walking up to touch him and do it, he's doing it from afar. Also, pretty sure Sonic breaking through that just supports the mental aspect, not remotely the spiritual or physical. From what I'm seeing also, I don't see how this isn't an incap and you need to reword your arguments because they genuinely make no sense. I used Rohan as an example of how incap works, not that he'd actually write it dude.

      Uh, what are you remotely saying? I said that because you tried to imply the effects of the castle are only limited to humans. I'm saying that clearly isn't the case when other things such as animals and even skulls get affected by this as well. I don't know why such a description is on the profile, but I assume it comes from the abilities most notably affecting them as well. I clearly gave you examples that proved otherwise.

      "It’s says humans while Archie has separated a Mobian’s soul from a Human’s soul being fundamentally different to each other on a 2-A scale."

      Excuse me but has this EVER been accepted? I've never seen this brought up once in a CRT. Actually, that seems more like a limitation of the Sword of Acorns rather than it works that way. I have never seen such an explanation where they distinguished them as having different mechanics beyond the statement of "Oh it won't affect Overlanders". Also, all I got from that was influencing a Mobian spiritually is easier than doing so to an overlander, which would unironically make the case worse for Sonic. Also, affecting a 2-A scale with Soul Manip =/= Soul Manipulation used by a 2-A. Tier has no relevance over the potency of your hax, show when the Sword of Acorns has actually soul haxxed on a 2-A scale or something like that.

      K, "multiple sources" comes from the wiki, not any actual scans presented of something said inside the game. This is literally just a pathetic attempt at this point to get in the nullification. Actually, now that I look at Dracula's profile, he has a resistance to Power Nullification to begin with. Sonic's null won't be affecting him period, even if the abilities were all magical. Again, Dracula stomps even harder than before.

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    • Since grace is over, should we get this added or..

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    • Stalker Maggot wrote:

      Yes.

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    • Huh, the point of grace is to allow time for rebuttal, not countdown to automatic addition. I’m still rebutting.

      I can send this match to the Thread Removal thread if this gets accepted now.

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    • @Inverted Tempest Also, before I get a chance to refute, why are you saying this should be added when you’ve said multiple times this is a stomp?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      I can send this match to the Thread Removal thread if this gets accepted now.

      No you can't, you're literally the only person arguing in favor of Sonic here.

      And I'm saying it can be added under the clause since it's been argued Sonic could possibly get passed the passives.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      Huh, the point of grace is to allow time for rebuttal, not countdown to automatic addition. I’m still rebutting.

      I can send this match to the Thread Removal thread if this gets accepted now.

      Sir, you're the only one arguing for this thread's continuation and no one in this thread agrees with you.

      You can't force people to stay on a thread where both sides are repeating the same argument.

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    • GiverOfThePeace wrote:

      I have to repeat myself. The arguments aren’t sound and there is little evidence on Dracula’s side on this thread, specially when the wiki’s contradicts what is written in this thread.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      How is there very little evidence? You were shown direct fucking dialogue, a scan clarifying the castle's power, a gif of Soma using an ability, several pages of non-humans being affected by the castle, and many general quotes to back up what's being said. That is ridiculous to just say "little evidence" was being used.

      The wiki? Seriously? We already showed that there were just some assumptions made such as what were the source of specific things. One of yours directly stated there are factors of speculation taken into account at times. And generally if something doesn't have a citation to it on a wiki, it's based off an intepretation meaning it's not necessarily wrong but it's not remotely objective.

      Not only that, we've been over why Dracula's wincons work when Sonic really didn't have anything to get passed even Lullaby. This goes to Dracula and grace has passed.

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    • At the end of the day, this back and forth isn’t worth it. But then, what vs debate actually is?

      Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      I think you literally missed the glaring contradiction where it says, "Their creations bear the namesake of "Innocent Devils", creatures summoned and born of darkness, ranging from original and self-made, to even the formerly deceased and revived. All created beings hold strict and utter loyalty to their respective Forgemaster and grow in power through battle and destruction." Hmmmm... "Devil"? "Born of Darkness"? Almost like they are under his control...

      If I must even give evidence for this, let's directly take text from Dawn of Sorrow the Castlevania game itself.

      "Soma Cruz: ...Yes. I fell for your ruse. Why would you want to resurrect the dark lord?

      Celia Fortner: We do not desire the dark lord, per se. For god to be perfectly good, there must be a being of perfect darkness.

      Soma Cruz: That has nothing to do with me. If this world does need a perfect dark being, one should emerge. Isn't that how it works?

      Celia Fortner: Perhaps that is so. And perhaps it is not. What is true, however, is that the power of darkness steadily grows faint. The lord of darkness must be enthroned without fail. And not a moment too soon." - https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Celia_Fortner/Dialogue

      Innocent Devils are made from darkness but that’s not the only place they originated from.

      “Devil Forgemasters are not mere sorcerers; they are not just trained in black magic, but also in the arts of alchemy and spiritual metaphysics, being able to craft massive weapons and arsenals from mere prime and raw materials of nearly any sort, as well as creating magical living beings with the forbidden knowledge they possess.”

      Unless there is a clearer statement otherwise, Dracula does not have the inherent access to abilities created by a Devil Forgemaster. Otherwise, why would Dracula need them?

      Inverted Tempest wrote: The simple fact is, I honestly don't think this should be added to the profile of either of these two. It's clearly abundant that even the castle's passives are too much for Archie Sonic. If those get bypassed for resistances, then I guess this would just be added as a win for Dracula given that Lullaby has been established to be Sonic's undoing. Nonetheless, the Dracula votes stay valid.

      ^ I agree with this but the reason why there is a stomp is what i’m debating.

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    • @Inverted Tempest The evidence for Dracula shown:

      • A Youtube video with a vague, non canon ending scene of Soma becoming Dracula, assuming this no dialogue scene was enough evidence that all Dracula’s have all the demon powers inherently because Soma became Dracula after absorbing a lot of demon powers.
      • TheSpeedster96 showing the Dracula’s Castle is a symbol of Dracula’s Dark power but that statement doesn’t automatically mean that it doesn’t have magical abilities.
      • Several wiki links, and in the wiki links stating monster’s were transformed by magic. And the wiki also states the Dracula’s Castle is also a symbol of Dracula’s magic.
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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      I don't see how that remotely negates the fact they're still stated to be specifically made of pure darkness. You'd need to explicitly prove that they're something else instead of just saying those who incorporated them were trained in different abilities. They literally just do the dirty work in making those Innocent Devils is all that has been proven. Nobody even said that he created them himself, they're still his subordinates like what's already been mentioned. Their abilities were already proven to have belonged to him.

      We are literally passed grace, you are under obligation to stop arguing this now.

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    • What do mean I need to show more evidence? The Innocent Devils are made out of pure darkness + something else that made them.

      YOU need to show Dracula has this something else in him.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Show they are made of something else, they are noted to be born of darkness which is literally enough to give him control over them, why else would they be in the castle? I don't need to show zilch considering I cave the dialogue from earlier showing he controls darkness like that as well.

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    • Wait, there’s a Hell?

      “bring people and animals back from the dead or to call demonic spirits from Hell into intact corpses,”

      Is that part of the Concept of Chaos?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Of what relevance is that? Also, ask Speedster, I wouldn't know that.

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    • Well, all my energy is burned out.

      Dracula’s powers came from this: Chaotic Realm.

      The Devil Forgemasters get their Demonic spirits from this: The Abyss which is the game’s closest representation of hell.

      The wiki’s don’t state a connection.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      And your point...? The Abyss is inside the castle.

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    • The Abyss:

      ENVIRONMENT(S) - Alternate realm

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Yes, the castle has many different realms in it, your point?

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    • That the Abyss isn’t a part of Dracula’s powers, even though he uses it’s citizens and monsters from there as part of his army.

      Also, the realms aren’t actually inside Dracula’s Castle.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      How is it not part of his powers if the castle is tied to his will?

      "It is said that the giant clock tower is a symbol of Dracula’s castle. Within it are crushing giant moving contraptions and gears that are several times the height of a human.Curtis and Michelle continued on climbing up and up.Relying on the few scattered scaffoldings, they attacked the medusa heads and monsters that crowded their surroundings.Although they have been through various places of the castle, they still have not caught sight of the children. While defeating numerous monsters, up until now Michelle had not doubled her speed.From the first monster that she saw and defeated, it is certain that she had developed far more experience in actual battle.It was said that there are areas in the castle where teleporters instantly allow you to return to the entrance even from the farthest side of the castle. It was then discovered that the castle exists on top of another dimension."

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    • Because the Castle creates portals to other realms, not actually houses them inside.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Read the quote.

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    • Inverted Tempest wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Read the quote.

      I did. But I also read this quote about Alternate Realities which is what The Abyss is.

      Alternate Realms are worlds that belong to another dimension apart from ours. Entrances to these places are usually generated by ripping the very fabric of time and space, opening a portal between worlds. These doors are generally only temporary and can only be opened when a certain uncommon event or a large period of time has elapsed in our world, such as the passing of a century or a solar eclipse.”

      “Opening a portal between worlds”. Between which world? Between the world the Castle sits in and another dimension?

      And also note they don’t have connections between each other other than the Castle. And that they can only be access through certain events.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Then the wiki is clearly misinterpreting the original material. The castle clearly contains them, this is literally just similar in the fact Bulbapedia does a similar thing where outright universes are just pocket dimensions to them.

      "SOMA: Yeah.... I've taken the bait. Why do you want a demon king?

      CELIA: It's not that I want a demon king. In order for god to be completely good, a being of complete evil is lacking.

      SOMA: That has nothing to do with me. If the world wants complete evil, the demon king will someday appear. Isn't that right?

      CELIA: That may be true. Or it may not be true. But in fact, the power of the demon world is getting weaker. A demon king must definitely be made. And soon."

      And the Demon World is the Abyss, meaning they're talking about the castle in this context.

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    • Where in the dialogue does it link the Abyss to the Castle?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Again, refer to your own source you've been trying to use the entire time.

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    • “By opening a portal to the Demon Realm she plans to turn her castle into a Demon Castle such as Dracula's Castle.”

      So, the Demon Realm isn’t that same as Dracula’s castle.

      The Demon Realm and Abyss aren’t the same thing.

      “Both the Demon Realm and the Abyss are called unique names in this game, so, while they are not the same place, it is possible they are connected somehow since the portal to the Abyss fuels the castle's existence.”

      Ok, now we are getting somewhere.

      “The Chaotic Realm is a region of distorted space where the power of Dracula's Castle is stored by accumulating negative energy; this energy is used and processed for the resurrection of both Count Dracula and the re-emergence of the castle itself.”

      So, the Abyss > The Abyss’s portal = the castle’s existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula’s power/resurrection.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      I have asked for Speedster to return to the thread, he should be here soon to reply to this since he's more knowledgeable on the cosmology than I am.

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    • Well This Was an Odd Idea

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    • Alright. I don’t mind Sonic losing but some of the arguments sounds like I needed to know about the Cosmology in advance.

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    • I believe this can be added

      also Drac FRA

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    • If it is going to be added, perhaps a review on why it should be added happen first?

      Lullaby can’t be used as a reason as Innocent Devils, where Lullaby comes from, are stated to be made by demons used from hell. The Abyss is the closest thing resembling hell.

      The Abyss > The Abyss’s portal = the castle’s existence > negative energy = The Chaotic Realm =/> Dracula’s power/resurrection.

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    • Also, Dracula’s Castle does use Magic.

      “...However, its potent power has not been entirely lost.

      23. Dracula's Castle - The symbol of Dracula's dark power, its appearance coincides with Dracula's resurrection. The priest of the Hakuba Shrine sealed it in a solar eclipse in 1999. Then, during the solar eclipse of 2035, it sought a new master, but failed. Now, its dark power awaits the rise of a new dark lord...”

      https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ds/922145-castlevania-dawn-of-sorrow/faqs/39306

      Used as a Wiki’s source link, but there also dialogue from the game.

      Genya Arikado: The evil in this spirit comes from those who seek chaos and destruction. So we need to cut off the source of the chaos influencing the spirit.

      Soma Cruz: Is that possible?

      Genya Arikado: This castle is a product of Dracula's magic. It's a spiritual world. My point is this... a stream of chaos exists within this castle as well. There is a place where only you, Dracula, can go. That's where the chaos is!

      https://castlevania.fandom.com/wiki/Castlevania:_Aria_of_Sorrow/Script

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    • So, Dracula’s Castle abilities are magic based.

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    • A FANDOM user
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