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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    22:04, January 22, 2020

    Okay...since the tier systems have gotten a revision- noticibly , tier 1-A got three new tiers added to it.........Low 1-A, 1-A+ and high 1-A......so, should featherine be tier 0, or 1-A+ or high 1-A?

    ....?Also, can there be multiple tier 0 in a single verse?

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    • I think likely High 1-A.

      There can be multiple tier 0 characters in a verse, yes.

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    • High 1-A. How can someone who is "boundless" be restricted by a higher power? 

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    • It is alway possible to increase the power hierarchy even further. We simply stop at tier 0, because it is generally pointless to to go higher than that in the scaling.

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    • High 1-A for manifestation and 0 for true nature/power or something like that. Although the City of Books manifestation that we saw it the story will be just 1-A, if no one will prove 1-A Human Domain.

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    • @DarkLK

      Please talk with Ultima Reality and Promestein about this, as I think that Ultima intends to make her just High 1-A.

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    • But there is nothing new there.

      We discussed in the revision thread that there is a whole domain above the witch domain, but below the Creator Domain/Zero Domain.

      Beatrice's true potential, which surpasses the witch domain, is only the first step to the domain where Featherine is located.

      But Featherine is there after she returned from the Country of God. It was said in the original and said again in Saku. She returned from there alive despite the absence of any will there.

      The witch domain starts from 1-A

      The next domain starts from high 1-A

      And the Creator domain is 0

      She (manifestation of course) returned from there, but she achieved this domain alive.

      In any case, call me when there will be an actual discussion and work with pages, if there are problems with this.

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    • I believe I’ve got some scans from 4-6 chapters which may prove 1-A Human domain.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • In any case, if you need more information.

      The fact that she returned from there where was no restrictions.

      【ベアト】 「そういうことだ。創作の力は、制限がなくなればなくなるほどその翼を大きく広げることが出来る。……だが、ある一線を越えて一切の制限がなくなると。逆に、創作の力は委縮していくのだ」

      【ピース】 「我が主は、その極致に触れられ、ここは意志ある者の辿り着くべきところではないと悟られ、お還りになられたのでピス」

      The fact that even being on the game board she's not limited to this board and its rules at all.

      【縁寿】 「……フェザリーヌは、私たちの世界を、原稿用紙に書かれたもののように見て、その1文字1文字を、鉛筆と消しゴムで、好きなように消して、好きなように書く力がある、と聞いたわ」

      【戦人】 「すげぇな。駒もゲーム盤も最低限のルールもなしの、……最強無敵のゲームマスターなんだな」

      The fact that her true nature is fundamental to the whole world and that her messenger is at the same level.

      私は、尊厳なる観劇と戯曲と傍観の魔女であらせられる、大アウローラ卿よりカケラを預かる使者として生み出されました。 大アウローラ卿が、世界を支える柱という偉大なる蝋燭に灯る炎であるならば、私はこの程度の蝋燭なれど、大アウローラ卿の炎より火を分けられた、分祀されし存在なのでピス。

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    • Thank you. I have informed Ultima.

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    • Let's say there are several characters (A, B, C,D....)

      A is infinite dimensional. B is outerversal. C transcends B the same way B transcends a normal human. D transcends C like C transcends a human. And E transcends D like D transcends a human. Is E and D tier 0?

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    • I do not think so, no. Sorry. Probably just a higher degree of 1-A, but I am not certain.

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    • E and D are just 1-A, it's not even an infinite hierarchy to become 1-A +.

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    • Can someone give me some examples , like statements which prove a character is 0?

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    • I don't know, there are verses that have no infinite hierarchy like DC verse, are ultima and people say the verse is high 1-A and maybe 0.

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    • Ultra instinct issei wrote:
      Can someone give me some examples , like statements which prove a character is 0?

      Not sure if this is a good example.

      Let's say A is infinite dimensional (High 1-B), B is uncountably infinite dimensional (Low 1-A), C is beyond dimensional boundary (1-A), D transcends C (1-A), E is an infinite Outerversal layers construct (1-A+), F transcends E entierly and perceives it as fiction or something irrelevant (High 1-A), G is completely beyond the hierachy of Outerversal characters (High 1-A), H transcends infinite High Outerversal layers and stands completely beyond what makes a character High Outerversal (Tier 0).

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    • I think that seems like a pretty good summary.

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    • Featherine should be High 1-A.

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    • To me Featherine should have a High 1-A key for her manifestation and a Tier 0 key for her true form. 

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    • That's what DarkLK thinks as well.

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    • I agree with Aeons and Dark.

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    • There’s no way for Featherine to be 0 under the new system. Her head device alone proves she can’t be tier 0.

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    • Maicol2244
      Maicol2244 removed this reply because:
      It wrong
      04:10, November 29, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • To me it much better that Featherine is tier 0

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    • @The real cal howard

      I do not think that it works like that. Her true form is on the same level as, but inferior to, The Creator. Her head device simply makes sure that she keeps her own individuality/identity if I have understood correctly.

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    • It she can’t choose to keep her identity without a device then she’s not tier 0. Simple as that.

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    • Tier 0 in the new system has more strictly to do with power, not necessarily with additional qualities possessed by a character, so Featherine's head-device thingy doesn't really stop her from being 0.

      Even then, isn't Featherine's real form more of a fully abstract force than anything, as opposed to the personal entity seen in the Visual Novel itself?

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    • True Featherine is totally 0. Going by that device logic, then The Law of Identity isn't 0 because there are things she doesn't know.

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    • ...I agree

      You know darn well I will never stop thinking Ichiban is wanked.

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    • Tier 0 =/= omnipotence.

      A tier 0 character can have limitations and weaknesses. They don't have to literally be immune to everything and be able to do whatever they want at all times without any drawbacks or justifications.

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    • But it's in the tiering system (I think?) that I read that being infinitely above a high 1-A character does not automatically make you tier 0. To be tier 0, you have to be so far beyond their reality that there is no way that they can even perceive you and even be real to them.

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    • I dont know Umineko that much, but wouldn’t the witch domain be 1-A+?

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    • Madotsuki24 wrote: But it's in the tiering system (I think?) that I read that being infinitely above a high 1-A character does not automatically make you tier 0. To be tier 0, you have to be so far beyond their reality that there is no way that they can even perceive you and even be real to them.

      It doesn’t need to go THAT far, a tier 0 just needs to transcend a high 1-A to the same level of high 1-As transcending the tiers below it.

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    • How can we prove that the zone Featherine transcends is high 1-A?

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    • Well having a direct statement that the zone is above any recursions of size below it would be nice, but fiction for the most part doesn’t like to be direct with us since powerscaling is not even factored in when writing the series. I say go find multiple strong context clues that would point to the idea that the superiority of the zone cannot be matched by stacking infinities on each other by zones below it to begin with.

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    • I have no knowledge about the verse whatsoever but she should be 1-A+ judging by her profile information and AP jastification. 

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    • I mean there is no way a character who needs a memory device can be tier 0. It's either that or the profile should have 2 separate keys

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    • Why is that so? A tier 0 is no longer treated as an absolute boundless tier, and now you can be a tier 0 even with restrictions as long as your AP can match it up.

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    • A lot of people still haven't realize that the Tiering System has changed. I think one High 1-A key and one Tier 0 key seem to be the best option.

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    • I agree with TrueBK98. The memory device is due to the nature of the verse. In order to gain tier 0 stature, you have to merge with The Creator and lose your identity, much like Nirvana. However, Featherine managed to come back from that state. The memory device ensures that she does not lose her identity in such a manner, and we have only seen distant avatars so far, not the true Featherine.

      We are still waiting for Promestein to get the time to improve on our Umineko profiles via a revision though.

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    • There's no "so far". Umi is the only time we've seen Featherine, and I highly doubt we'll see her in Ciconia. The avatars, if we're even certain they're avatars, are the only things we'll see of her.

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    • The real cal howard wrote:
      There's no "so far". Umi is the only time we've seen Featherine, and I highly doubt we'll see her in Ciconia. The avatars, if we're even certain they're avatars, are the only things we'll see of her.

      Yeah, it’s highly likely we’ve only seen her Avatars, as it’s stated she transcends Witches to the same degree Witches transcend Humans, so where the Witches go to their True forms, She is still in her avatars.

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    • Even if she appears in Ciconia (which I'm sure she will), there's a 99.99% posibility that we'll only see her avatar. . . like with the rest of the Voyagers, Yes, even those in Umi, and likely Higurashi, were still avatars, with Bern's letter to Auau being probably the only time we "see" the true form of any of them.

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    • Technically, we has already seen her avatar in Ciconia. Or more precisely, we heard it.

      Ciconia's version of Skynet, the ruler of the world of machines from an apocalyptic future. A self-proclaimed messenger of God who brings "salvation" to people by sending their bodies to a meat grinder.

      Ciconia is Featherine's gameboard, so she is apparently the main villain here.

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    • If she's the main villain, hopefully she'll get defeated. In more than just ideals.

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    • This is only a game and her avatar. For herself (more precisely, for her meta-avatar) it’s just a "next tea party".

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    • The Umineko setting seems quite depressing in my humble opinion. There is no way to ensure a happy ending when a bunch of omnipotent sociopaths rule everything.

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    • Well, they actually treat people with love and respect. Probably more so than the people themselves. Even acting as villains (in this case, they personify some negative qualities of the people themselves, and do not create problems from the outside), they basically let people see their own weaknesses and become better.

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    • Okay.

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    • The lossing of the value of life, the destruction of society, sociopathy, excessive escapism and suicide are things that they criticize in people. But people do not have an evil dark lord whom they can defeat to cope with such problems, since the problem is in themselves. And higher witches can give people such a personification to defeat it. Their direct intervention cannot make the situation worse, but it gives people the possibility to make it better. As in the case of Ange, who was supposed to die due to suicide or murder, but the battle with Bern gave her the possibility to change her fate. This applies to active intervention. Their passive unconscious conceptual intervention does not bear any negative aspects at all and simply ensures the existence and development of the world and life.

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    • Well, except Beato.

      In the first chapter she just flat out goes and murders people for not believing in her.

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    • Beato is not the higher witch. Well, that is, she does not rule the whole creation, only her own territory. (SPOILER) And everything is not quite as it seems with her. All that happens there is the problems of humans.

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    • DarkLK wrote:

      The lossing of the value of life, the destruction of society, sociopathy, excessive escapism and suicide are things that they criticize in people. But people do not have an evil dark lord whom they can defeat to cope with such problems, since the problem is in themselves.

      Well, I obviously agree about that.

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    • Will anyone going to handle the change?

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    • We still have to wait for Promestein to get the time to properly revise the verse and its characters. You can politely inform her about this thread if you wish though.

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    • Sorry for having been living under a rock, but has High 1-A returned or is it still "fused" with Tier 0? Because if I recall correctly more than a year ago or so, it was decided that High 1-As would all automatically become part of Tier 0.

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    • High 1-As have been separated off of tier 0s.

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    • So is she still tier 0 or she will be downgraded to High 1-A soon?

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    • There's an entire WTC revision going on, so none of the tierings for the characters would likely be updated until the revision is done and the blogs posted.

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    • Can I see the revision?

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    • Well, there's mainly this thread that started and continued the revision: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:2284830

      But most of it is done by Promestein who's currently reading trought the verse's VNs and stuff. You can ask her if you want, I guess.

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    • I’ve heard a lot of talk on discord on how she, and the voyagers are gonna get massively downgraded. She might still retain her high 1-A tier, but at a different key.

      Basically, don’t be surprised if Masada stomps Umineko except for the Creator, if the revisions ever go through.

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    • What discord?

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    • Well, DarkLK thinks that her true highest level of existence is tier 0, as it is in The Creator's domain, but that the version interacting with lower degrees of reality is tier High 1-A.

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    • And I’ve heard people expressing their disagreements with these thoughts as well.

      We are just gonna have to wait and see what happens.

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    • ^ Agree on that last bit.

      I think it's better to close this thread.

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    • Yes. Promestein will finish when she finishes. There is not point in rushing.

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