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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    18:03, January 21, 2020

    Hopefully this isn't a massive mistake or stomp lol

    Basically a canon OC vs An Uncomfortably Likeable Terrorist

    Speed is Equalised. Both are tier 7. Rin has intel

    Altair, Re-Creators
    Rxlfbrhza1921
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    • What does Rin do?

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    • Some of her clones are bloodlusted, so probably what she needs to do to win. Gae Bolg's curse is conceptual, so at the vary least they can damage her and prevent restoration. 

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    • I dont see anything on her arsenal that could possibly deal with Altair tho

      How good is her type 8 and 9?

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    • What specifically can't she bypass? She can damage her, and the curse cannot be reverted, so assuming she just goes for Gae Bolg right off the bat, what makes her not be incapacitated? I know she does not start with plot manip, at least in her tier 7 form

      High end 2-A. The Moon Cell will keep producing copies of her until her battle with Rani VIII is concluded, and her true body is stored deep with it. 

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    • Gae Bolg is causality manip akaif. Altair is a type 4 acausal, so she yeets causality. She also has Mid Godly regen, and a bunch of immortalities, plus passive causality manip that reflects any attack back to the opponent and also has plothax

      Well, she cant kill all the Rins so its probably incon or Altair incaps

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    • She is accausal but that doesn't really matter since the causality manip applies more so to the spear itself. The attack hits its mark which causes the spear to be thrust, and due to this, the attack cannot miss. Gae Bolg basically hard counters her causality manip, since the spear impaling her in the heart is what causes the attack, so she cannot reflect the effect of it like she normally could. Regen is conceptually negated by Gae Bolg, and the immortality wont matter all that much since she cannot restore the damage dealt by the curse. She doesn't begin with Plot hax in her tier 7 key which means if Rin can take her down in the first move then it wont matter. 

      What do u think she could use to incap rin? 

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    • Altair can just teleport away to avoid the attack

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    • Teleportation won't stop the curse, and unless she already know to avoid any close range conflict, she would have no reason to be so insistent on keeping distance. She never played like that in the show, or at least not in this key, since I cannot speak to the latter one. The cause of the attack is that she is stabbed in the heart, and effect is the thrust of the spear

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    • Rin can always just roll a nat 1

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    • Owo whats this? You found a match up for her?

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      She is accausal but that doesn't really matter since the causality manip applies more so to the spear itself. The attack hits its mark which causes the spear to be thrust, and due to this, the attack cannot miss. Gae Bolg basically hard counters her causality manip, since the spear impaling her in the heart is what causes the attack, so she cannot reflect the effect of it like she normally could. Regen is conceptually negated by Gae Bolg, and the immortality wont matter all that much since she cannot restore the damage dealt by the curse. She doesn't begin with Plot hax in her tier 7 key which means if Rin can take her down in the first move then it wont matter. 

      What do u think she could use to incap rin? 

      It does matter because: "Gáe Bolg possess a powerful curse which reverses causality, allowing Cu to always pierce his opponents heart with the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death by reversing causality so the effect of the target's heart being pierced occurs before the cause of the attack."

      And she also has passive powernull if Im not mistaken

      Im gonna need feats of the spear negging Mid Godly and bypassing all those immortalities

      She actually does use Plot hax...like a lot. Especially with Outline Origin

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    • Do you wanna explain why it matters or are u just gonna give me a quote from the profile that I created, without explaining what that has to contradict what i said? The causal curse applies to the attack itself or the spear, so her accausality really doesn't change anything here. Her causality based attack reflection wont work either, since she reflects the effect of the attack, but her being stabbed is not the effect. 

      I would like scans of its passive effect since the only example listed on the profile is one she used actively. 

      Its conceptual, so the regen its negating being mid-godly does not matter. The spear prevents restoration, so where that restoration comes from is ultimately irrelevant unless you wanna explain why the means, not the potency, of the restoration matters. She can't kill Altair, but she can certainly maim her horribly, and although the type 8 won't let her die, she can certainly be gouged. 

      Not as an opener tho, and especially not against people she knows nothing about

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    • Because its still causality manipulation. Sure, the attack is causal so I dont see how what so special about it, since its still...a causal attack

      Its probably not passive tbf, but she can do it mid fight nonetheless, Im gonna watch the fight again just to be sure. She can also just erase the spear I guess

      Nani? So Conceptual Manipulation (Type 3) can bypass Mid Godly by default? What kind of "harming her horribly" are we talking about?

      It was the first thing she did against Selestia after the fire buff and the first thing she did against Hikayu

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    • Type 3 Conceptual manipulation dies bypass mid Godly yes

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    • Because the causality manip in no way interacts with the causal system of the enemy, at least not really. Its Lancer's causal system that is being fucked with. 

      Erasing the spear doesn't really matter since she just generates a new one along with the numerous clones. 

      It's not type 3, since Nasu concepts dont fall into the usual categories but its semantic anyway. Yes, conceptual manipulation does bypass mid godly regen. One hit from the spear against a comparably durable enemy blew open a gaping hole in their chest, but Altair is far less durable than Rama is, so she would be turned to mush from the strike, and if it doesn't happen in one attack, then there are 20+ other Rin ready to take another shot

      She already knew what they could do, and it wasn't their opener against people who she did not know

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    • AnonymousBlank wrote:
      Owo whats this? You found a match up for her?

      Let's find out lol

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    • So what exactly does the spear do? If the spear must damage her body then it probably wont work

      I mean, it must be one of the four concepts (except Type 1 since its for 1-As). But I'd guess its Type 3 or something similar to it. Clones are not really a problem because of Factor Mimic

      I guess? Doesnt really change the fact that she either starts by erasing elements from the narrative or using Outline Origin

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    • Weren't we discussing what the spear does this whole time? It attacks with a conceptual curse that negates restoration, and reverses causality to make it unavoidable. 

      No, it falls outside of the 4 usual types. Concepts in the nasuverse have aspects of each type but also have properties that excludes them from falling cleanly within any of them. I would say they are most similar to type 2, but they still don't completely work with that

      Doesn't she like always start with her guns and swords? At least that seems to be the most consistent starter for her

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    • Altair’s opening move in her first fight onscreen was existence erasure on Selesia’s Vogelchevalier. In her second fight against Selesia’s in the real world she resorted to sword spamming rather than haxing her to death since she wanted to convince Selesia to join her side. In her third fight her opening move was transmutation on Selesia’s sword and power mimicry + duplication on Rui’s mech since she wanted to test how much power she could use in the real world. In the final fight she was trying to entertain the audience so she could power herself up which is why she decided to use her sword spam first against everybody and slowly start to use her hax. So if she isn’t trying to get stronger via acceptance or convince somebody to join her she just uses whatever hax works best in the current situation from the start.

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    • "Whatever she needs to do to win" is a very hard thing to prove, and what this actually means is that she starts with the erasure of her enemies weapons. That is the only case of her fighting outside of special circumstances, so that is our sample size we have to work with. 

      Due to this she might be able to erase the first few Rin's spears but since she has not been shown to spam erasure the second set gets in there

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    • Oblivion Of The Endless wrote:
      So what exactly does the spear do? If the spear must damage her body then it probably wont work

      I mean, it must be one of the four concepts (except Type 1 since its for 1-As). But I'd guess its Type 3 or something similar to it. Clones are not really a problem because of Factor Mimic

      I guess? Doesnt really change the fact that she either starts by erasing elements from the narrative or using Outline Origin

      Inb4 WoG confirms that Factor Mimic can copy anything, including plots, concepts, weapons, etc. [Ambigiously confirmed with 'maybe anything' ("多分なんでもです")].



      Also if Gae Bolg reverses causality, so does Altair with 'The Vicissitudes of Fortune', which was stated as more powerful (also has less restrictions) than Magane's ability. She also survived after being conceptually EE'd by 66th movement, I cannot understand what's the case here.

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    • Anyone voted yet? Cause about to vote for Altair with all those arguments. Close match but yeah Rin can't get through enough to prevent that.

      FLEncore is still weakest Fate franchise, my poor Umu

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    • Gae Bolg can't kill Berserker, explicitly because Berserker doesn't need his heart. Altair's gonna be fucking fine.

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    • Promestein wrote:
      Gae Bolg can't kill Berserker, explicitly because Berserker doesn't need his heart. Altair's gonna be fucking fine.

      Since when was this a thing? I'm assuming that is due more so to God Hand rather than actual physiology or anything like that, cuz Nasu has outright stated that a completely serious Cu could potentially win against Berserker

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    • It's a statement from Nasu. Gae Bolg wouldn't kill something that wouldn't need its heart to live, and then he mentions Berserker as an example. Maybe it'd take off a life, but Berserker would just regenerate. Altair's regeneration is much better.

      This is assuming Altair doesn't just revert Rin back to normal, reflect her attack, copy her, or break fate to avoid Gae Bolg.

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    • Scan/link please. Gae Bolg may not kill them, but it would certainly maim the hell out of them and prevent restoration. God Hand is a bizarre case and isn't usual regeneration, and is also a 'borderline' conceptual armament in and of itself. I'm pretty sure no one is claiming that Gae Bolg could actually kill Altair, since even if it can stop her from healing, it cannot stop her type 8 from keeping her alive. That being said, it would turn her to mush from the AP alone, because as Rama showed, even if you can survive the curse the AP aspect still won't heal, so she will be turned to mush. 

      She would need to have access to the real rin to revert her, and she certainly ain't bypassing the moon cell. Attack reflection is reliant on reversing the effects of the attack, but since the effect is the thrust and the cause is the damage, her reflection won't work. Copying it is nice but she lacks the AP necesarry to use it without being torn apart, as Cu Alter shows. She also doesn't start with breaking fate to protect herself in this key, especially not without intel

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    • "In order to evade Gae Bolg, one would require Noble Phantasms that automatically resurrected the target after death like that of Berserker's, or a high degree of Luck sufficient to negate the curse of the spear.
      To put it into game terms, it would be an insane Noble Phantasm with a base damage plus an additional component that scaled with the target's HP.
      For example, if Saber's HP was 100, then Gae Bolg's damage would be (Spear Damage + 100). She would absolutely be dead if it hit.
      "

      Fate materials say that the spear deals damage equal to opponents "HP" + spear's damage, which results in the target being dead no matter what. 

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    • That elaboration should definitely be on the profile lol

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    • Fate/Complete Material III: "While this is a technique employing Gáe Bolg as a melee attack, it is originally a magic spear for throwing. With a technique that reverses the meaning of "cause and effect" in the order of things, the "result" that "the heart of the opponent has been pierced" is created earlier than the moment it is thrust. Accordingly, the "cause" that "the lance has pierced through the heart" is generated from it later. Without a great deal of luck (like Artoria), it can be said that this is a technique that determines "if it is released, the opponent is dead." However, against Servants like Heracles who can move even when their heart is destroyed, there is a small disadvantage. Compared to the Spear of Striking Death Flight, both the range of effectiveness and the destructive power are weakened. However, it is worth mentioning that "the magical energy cost is low." For having such a strong effect as "almost certainly will destroy the enemy's heart," without the need of a terrible amount of magical power, it becomes an excellent Noble Phantasm of extraordinary usability."

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    • Fate Side Material explains things differently than Complete Material and doesn't have that sentence. Which brings up the question why is Heracles able to survive something that kills you using certain mechanics simply by being able to move when his heart is destroyed. Seems contradictory.

      Any context, explanation, actual feat of Heracles doing this? 

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    • Wait, can I give Type 2 Concept Manip. to Altair by then?

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    • It doesn't look like this debate proves she has it so no. You can't

      She already has Type 3 and resistance to it. So I think that can stay

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: It doesn't look like this debate proves she has it so no. You can't

      She already has Type 3 and resistance to it. So I think that can stay

      I was talking about Holopsicon is being considered as having the same ability with the creators, which led their written fanfiction to become Universes [Even Multi-universes (By Meteora's statements about her storyworld having multiple timelines)] by its own laws&logic. I still wonder about why doesn't she have Type 2 concept manip yet :(

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    • That doesn't seem like Type 2 and more of just good range and just immersion or another hax. Especially since this was basically immersing the fiction into reality, that would fall under Immersion I believe.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      That doesn't seem like Type 2 and more of just good range and just immersion or another hax. Especially since this was basically immersing the fiction into reality, that would fall under Immersion I believe.


      You call that Altair's Universe/Story creation from zero as Immersion? Aight.

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    • Immersion because she turned fiction into reality. Or it could just be ex nhillio creation

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Immersion because she turned fiction into reality. Or it could just be ex nhillio creation


      You- no, not going to even mess with that. You call that Creators are just a bunch of people that can use Immersion and I cannot even talk against that, because it literally makes zero to no sense.

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    • You can't even talk against that even though you said it makes no sense. All it was just turning a fanfiction into a reality, that isn't type 2 by a long shot

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      You can't even talk against that even though you said it makes no sense. All it was just turning a fanfiction into a reality, that isn't type 2 by a long shot


      Alright, alright. I'll try to be as clean as possible.



      Creators, re-phrasing the 'Creators' part, can create storyworlds by mere thoughts, either by writing books (Magane came from a book, just like how Blitz Talker did), creating games with prior knowledge (Meteora was from a RPG game), or even basically designing a small series with a few drawings in it is enough to create a storyworld in that matter. Here's a fact:

      For fictional characters, these 'storyworlds' are Universes. In fact, even 'Multi-Universes' since the 'storyworld' which Meteora is from had a few alternate timelines within the said 'storyworld', that works by 'different laws and logic' than how 'the realm of Creators' do, which were implied to be the real world.

      You are trying to call this as 'Immersion' and yes, Altair does that. Altair, not Creators.

      What I am trying to tell is that, 'Holopsicon' does possess the power of creators. Not just bringing them to 'the Realm of Creators', but also bringing their powers as how they work within their respective 'storyworlds' laws and logic into 'the Realm Of Creators'. That's not just some sort of Immersion, this is literally more than what you would call as one. Would you really call that as a mere 'Immersion' while the characters 'you bring up from fiction' can affect 'the world that's implied to be the real one and which sees everything (Even CM) as fiction' with their powers as a whole?



      I mean, okay, I have nothing else to tell at this point.

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    • Thank you for explaining it to me.

      reading how they created concepts/laws in different universes sounds a lot like concept manip after reading the explanation than just turning it into reality which , so it seems like she could have that ability.

      But you need to make a CRT for it 1st before you can add it on the profile.

      Now let's stop derailing the thread.

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    • Following. Not sure why Rin is being pitted against one of the literal strongest Tier 7s in the whole wiki (Provided it's speed equal), but the arguments for Rin actually make this fairer than I initially thought.

      Not sure who to vote for yet, but honestly Rin having infinite copies from the Mooncell ala Lavos style IS really strong...

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    • From what I see best Altair can hope for is inconclusive.

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    • ShinyMagicalGirl wrote:
      Following. Not sure why Rin is being pitted against one of the literal strongest Tier 7s in the whole wiki (Provided it's speed equal), but the arguments for Rin actually make this fairer than I initially thought.

      Not sure who to vote for yet, but honestly Rin having infinite copies from the Mooncell ala Lavos style IS really strong...

      I don't know, Ness seems a good contender.

      Really haxed with passive fate hax to boot plus getting protected by a 2-B.

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    • I'm prettyyyyyyyy sure Altair can just plot and null and absorb.

      But yeah Ness VS Altair also seems like a stalemate

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    • The strongest Tier 7s are characters from Masada iirc

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    • The REAL battle is the Low 2-C versions of the characters. The battle will be LEGENDARY!!!

      But 1st, we have to wait until all the buffs gets done

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    • How. Didn't one of them lose to MCU Doctor Strange??

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      How. Didn't one of them lose to MCU Doctor Strange??

      Who? If it did, it wasnt one of the top tiers

      Masada tier 7s have 1-A shit

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    • It was Ruschwalga Schwarezin or something (masada and their names are dog doodo)

      Also, I feel like Altair and revised Ness can be a good fight to them with passive fate hax and a bunch of good hax they don't resist

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    • Anyways... What's the reason that this fight is incon? I thought Altair has incap options against Rin?

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Also, I feel like Altair and revised Ness can be a good fight to them with passive fate hax and a bunch of good hax they don't resist

      Minor derailment, and I apologize...

      I don’t really want to deal with that, ya know? I mean, I guess it’s fine? I’m not telling you can’t make Ness matchups, but like, I don’t really want to have Ness or any Earthbound character for that matter be one of the spammed characters on here. Too much stress and work. I’m already busy as is. Because eventually, it’ll become uninteresting for me.

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    • Don't worry. I will wait until every revision is finished

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    • That’s the thing tho

      Because after revisions, he’s probably going to be spammed, yes? Or at least that’s what I’m predicting. As I said before, I really don’t want to deal with that sort of stuff.

      Alright, I’m done now.

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    • I'll follow your request and I won't spam him even AFTER the revisions. Sorry if I caused any trouble.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump.

      I'm just going to vote for altair, she absorbs, brings her back to a weaker state, or uses a crap ton of other moves and GG

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    • Absorbing her won't deal with Rin's most important abilities, since they are based from the Moon Cell, a structure that scales above baseline 2-A at least. Reverting Rin to a state before she was in the moon cell won't work either, since that would require trumping something significantly above her pay grade. 

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    • And by the time she can use those, Altair absorbs, EE's, etc.

      There is no way to deal with the fact she can't even hit altair due to not being acausal

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    • Even if she does all of those, they aren't gonna be able to reach the real Rin within the moon cell, so they won't put her down. 

      That doesn't matter, since her reversal of effect onto her enemies cannot reflect Gae Bolg, since the effect is the stab. 

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Btw, Altair can reflect weapon stab attacks, which makes no sense why they hit her since altair is acausal

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    • Btw, glad we got this back on track since the last half was us talking about other verses and a CRT

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    • As I said before, reflecting the stab won't work since the causal system is inverted for the spear. If she does try to reflect the effect of the spear, all that will happen would be something like she is stabbing herself instead of Rin doing it. Also, acausality doesn't really matter since the causality aspect really only applies to the spear itself, and she doesn't acausality to be damaged. 

      Great

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    • I am still wondering on how something like a spear would be something Altair wouldn't react to and incap with hax.....

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    • Conceptual attacks work on her. The causality aspect works in a way that she cannot reflect it, nor does it work in a way that her acausality counters. Also, there are essentially infinite of them, or at least the production of them. If she erases the first one, or the second one, or the third one, there are 17 Rin ready to Impale her conceptually in the next second. 

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    • She resists conceptual hax

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    • If that is true, then get it added to her profile, because I dont see it. 

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    • It was on the CRT

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote: Conceptual attacks work on her. The causality aspect works in a way that she cannot reflect it, nor does it work in a way that her acausality counters. Also, there are essentially infinite of them, or at least the production of them. If she erases the first one, or the second one, or the third one, there are 17 Rin ready to Impale her conceptually in the next second. 

      Wait a sec, I have read the thread but I still don't get why Causality manip won't get countered by Acausality, it's still Causality, she resist it.

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    • Because the modified causality in no way relates to the enemy or their causal system. The causality manip is on the spear itself, not the enemy. Also, she doesn't resist causality manip, she is acausal. In most cases the previous would be a superior form of the latter, but not in this instance. 

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    • The attack of the spear landing is what causes the spear to be thrust, so since the causality of the spear is inverted, their conceptual curse can never miss. At no point in the curse is the causal system of the enemy effected or tampered with

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    • 'Can never miss'



      Yeah, Altair pretty much escaped from these 'never' cases, such as being resistant against the 'power that would warp 3000 worlds', getting out of an infinite-sized locked space, even resisting again resistance negation etc.

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    • The thing with the Causality manip being in the spear and not affecting the Acausal charatcer is the same as, let's say, Ness' fate hax. The fate hax is made to protect him, it technically doesn't affect the other characters around him, but if he faces an Acausal Type 4 character the fate hax won't work on him even if it only works for Ness (I mean the fate hax won't protect Ness from the Acausal character since he isn't, well, causal).

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    • NothingToDebateWith wrote:
      'Can never miss'


      Yeah, Altair pretty much escaped from these 'never' cases, such as being resistant against the 'power that would warp 3000 worlds', getting out of an infinite-sized locked space, even resisting again resistance negation etc.

      Cool, but unless she has a specific counter on her profile to answer it, then it means nothing

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    • Ionliosite wrote:
      The thing with the Causality manip being in the spear and not affecting the Acausal charatcer is the same as, let's say, Ness' fate hax. The fate hax is made to protect him, it technically doesn't affect the other characters around him, but if he faces an Acausal Type 4 character the fate hax won't work on him even if it only works for Ness (I mean the fate hax won't protect Ness from the Acausal character since he isn't, well, causal).

      That's not quite the same thing. Ness's fate hax still screws with the fates of those around him, even if he has to always be the target, but unlike Ness, Gae Bolg does not influece nor rely on the causal system of their enemies whatsoever. Gae Bolg no more effects the causal system of those he attacks than anyone else just running up and stabbing someone with any other spear

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    • Then why it is listed as causality manip?

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    • Because they are manipulating the causality of the spear itself, not the enemy. 

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    • Altair incaps rin before she throws a spear 

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    • What does she use that can reach her true form? Incapacitating any individual one means just shit

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      NothingToDebateWith wrote:
      'Can never miss'


      Yeah, Altair pretty much escaped from these 'never' cases, such as being resistant against the 'power that would warp 3000 worlds', getting out of an infinite-sized locked space, even resisting again resistance negation etc.

      Cool, but unless she has a specific counter on her profile to answer it, then it means nothing

      Vicissitudes of Fortune reversed the causality itself when she was about to get impaled against Aliceteria's Conceptual Attack. putting Altair's acausality to a side.



      Plus, what could prevent her from revising Gáe Bolg into a bunch of flower petals or revise her luck to, you know, high enough to make it miss her?

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    • I vote for altair btw.

      Like throwing a spear for rin winning??

      Hell no, even somebody like Goku can dodge something like that. Altair incaps her easily before the spear hits

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    • Is that a joke or an actual argument? 

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    • Ipatius is saying how rin will kill altair by throwing a spear, even though altair easily incaps her or removes the spear before it can hit her.

      Dodging a spear isn't too hard

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    • Have you actually read what Gae Bolg does?

      Have you read about her immortality, which is connected to the Moon Cell, something far above what Altair can deal with. 

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    • It harms you when it hits you.

      Altair still incaps 

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    • NothingToDebateWith wrote:

      Vicissitudes of Fortune reversed the causality itself when she was about to get impaled against Aliceteria's Conceptual Attack. putting Altair's acausality to a side.



      Plus, what could prevent her from revising Gáe Bolg into a bunch of flower petals or revise her luck to, you know, high enough to make it miss her?

      For the 95th time on this thread: reversing the causality of the spear won't work, since the effect is the stab, and the cause is impalement. All that will be reflected is who thrusts the spear into Altair's heart, nothing else. 



      She could do that to the first spear, or the second spear, or the third spear, but for every spear she negates will be another 19 ready to be impaled into her. Oh, also, she would need to be able to revise her luck as well as write herself into the servant system, because just boosting her luck wont be enough unless she can do it in a way that will equalize to servant stats

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      It harms you when it hits you.

      Altair still incaps 

      What does she have to incapacitate Rin? 

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    • Why are you even arguing if the spear hits or not. Big deal if it hits let it. As if altair cares. She can easly continue on with a huge hole in her chest. And if im not missing something the spear only hits the heart so once that is destroyed Gae bolg becomes usless against her.

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    • It's not merely a hole in the chest. She'll be turned to mush by the AP difference

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    • IF she had a human body or something close to it. Then yes. But her body is just a projection its a Hologram its not a real body. Frankly im pretty sure she doesn't even have a heart for Gae bolg to strike.

      Now that i think about it we never see her bleed or be hurt in any human way. And even when she is being erased and we get to see a bit inside of her we never see any kind of orgns or anything. From all that is shown in the show she is just a projection with the image of Altair. To me it seems there isnt anything for Gae bolg to hit.

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      It's not merely a hole in the chest. She'll be turned to mush by the AP difference

      Laughs in mid godly regen

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    • Sixtyy sixth move of the holopsicon is used to incapacitate the target and absorb them.

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    • And from what I've read that still doesn't stop Rin.

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    • It was only mentioned in passinng before I did.

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    • Kiril Vasilev wrote:
      IF she had a human body or something close to it. Then yes. But her body is just a projection its a Hologram its not a real body. Frankly im pretty sure she doesn't even have a heart for Gae bolg to strike.

      Now that i think about it we never see her bleed or be hurt in any human way. And even when she is being erased and we get to see a bit inside of her we never see any kind of orgns or anything. From all that is shown in the show she is just a projection with the image of Altair. To me it seems there isnt anything for Gae bolg to hit.

      Yes, I'm aware, which is why you need concept manip to harm her, as Rin does. That's a pretty big assumption, as her projection is in the image of those that made her, and she is clearly meant to be human, or at least humanoid

      Her projection is why you need to attack with a concept or be able to effect concepts to be able to harm her, but Rin has those requirements. Also, unless you have proof that she completely lacks organs, we move forward under the premise she does, as she was made in the image of a human

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      Laughs in mid godly regen

      Did you completely miss the conceptual negation of regen or did you just forget? 

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    • Sharkafterdark wrote:
      Sixtyy sixth move of the holopsicon is used to incapacitate the target and absorb them.

      Been addressed. Even if she absorbs a single avatar, she cannot reach the real Rin, so they just keep coming, and she can't replicate the abilities of the moon cell as they are far above her pay grade

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    • I just looked at " The Sixty-Sixth Movement of the Cosmos: Existence Change:" a bit closer And the attack specifically states that the target is absorbed on a coneptual level. Which makes perfect sense becouse if Sirus just absorbed Altair's avatar she would just make another projection and continue on.So if im understanding this ability correctly it shoudlnt just absorb a single avatar but the whole concept of Rin. Which would mean Altair wins as soon as she uses it. Becouse the concept of Rin wouldnt exist it would become Altair.

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    • The Rin is being stored and protected by the moon cell. It wouldn't let you interfere with its processes, so unless you have the ability to somehow work in a way that it doesn't matter, you would need to be able to hack or overwhelm its defenses which work on a significantly above baseline scale. It being a conceptual attack should not change this, due to authority users making use of concept hax is incredibly common

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    • What exactly is above baseline scale define, please. Has the mooncell ever actually defended someone from a Conceptual attack? I'm asking specifically about defending someone else and not itself. Because I looked through Rins page. And while she has infinite generation of avatars thanks to mooncell listed. She has no form of Concept manip resist or negation listed.

      I also cannot find any concrete information of exactly how powerful the mooncell is and what abilities it has. The closest I can find is BB's profile which states that she absorbed the mooncell and became it gaining all its powers. And she still doesn't have any kind of Concept manip resist listed.

      I also want to mention the fact that a barely materialized Sirius lacking the levels of acceptance Altair had at the time of their battle managed to successfully use "existence change" on Altairs "At least Low 2-C " form

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    • When I said above baseline I was talking about being decently far into 2-A, my bad I should have been more specific. A character, using the Moon Cell's abilities, was able to no sell Gil's entire arsenal, which includes several conceptual weapons and armaments. 

      CCC BB's profile is where you can find a good amount of the moon Cell's abilities and it's about as close as we can get to having a profile for it. It has a few extra abilities that are specific to BB and a few that are missing, but it fits the roll well enough. Resistance to concept manip should be within the standard cocktail of Authority resistances, so if it isn't there, than that is an oversight and should have been added a while ago

      Low 2-C doesn't compare to 2-A

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    • Tbh, we've pointed out before that certain abilities and resistances are missing (including resistance to conceptual manipulation), but we kinda decided to leave it until we discuss Authority. 

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      When I said above baseline I was talking about being decently far into 2-A, my bad I should have been more specific. A character, using the Moon Cell's abilities, was able to no sell Gil's entire arsenal, which includes several conceptual weapons and armaments. 

      CCC BB's profile is where you can find a good amount of the moon Cell's abilities and it's about as close as we can get to having a profile for it. It has a few extra abilities that are specific to BB and a few that are missing, but it fits the roll well enough. Resistance to concept manip should be within the standard cocktail of Authority resistances, so if it isn't there, than that is an oversight and should have been added a while ago

      Low 2-C doesn't compare to 2-A

      Then why does that post even exist, comparing 2-C with a person that has 2-A hax? ROFL.

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    • Since this seems to be a stomp, I will lock the thread.

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