FANDOM


  • Carrying some debates from this blog. Antvasima has asked to make this thread. As well as plenty of other verses such as One-Punch Man also have issues like this.

    Looking up at Google Translate, the very first thing that pops up is the Japanese word Hoshi (星) means star. However, we all know how how unreliable Google translate is. Furthermore, that word has very consistently meant planet or star interchangeably. Because, in a Japanese dictionary or Thesaurus, plenty of things point to planets and stars being synonyms or that a giant ball of matter in space is called a star. Not just stars, but planets, moons, comets, and asteroids have frequently been called stars throughout many fictional works. And this is especially true in various works originating in Japan.

    Now to cut to the chase, two thinks we take note is that context is more important than a specific word or dictionary definitions. And feats are also more important than statements for the most part; unless the statement has enough elaboration or specific context to make it legitimate. Boros' feat is a perfect example of this. His final attack has the word Hoshi used in Japanese context; which fan translations confirm that means star, but refers to planet given the interchangeable translations. But the context "I'm going to shave the star/planet" and the fact that he was litally aiming towards planet Earth implies planet makes more sense in the context. Since both translations are both equally accurate, the context makes planet more sense here.

    But for the Eclipse Cannon in Sonic the Hedgehog (The Universe), the Eclipse Cannon has interchangeable statements. In Shadow the Hedgehog, it is stated that the Eclipse Cannon can "Pierce the stars". And in Sonic Adventure 2, it states that it can "Destroy the Planet" in the English dub. And we have fan translations from Windi stating that it "Pierces the Stars" in both dialogues. And at the same time, there are both games mentioning that "They are going to destroy the planet" in other cut scenes. And listing all the calculated feats, we have a City Busting feat calculated at 6-B which was done with the empowerment with 5 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds. Destroying a large part of the moon calculated at 5-B+ originally in the blog, but recalculated at Low 5-B as seen below in the comments and listed somewhere on DarkAnine's wall that he's okay with that, which was done with 6 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds. And lastly, with all 7 Chaos Emeralds, it just has a bunch of statements ranging from pierce the stars to destroying the planet. It was about to be fired and destroy the Earth in Sonic Adventure 2, as well as when Biolizard merges with it to crash onto the Earth. And in one route, Black Doom says in the same video where piercing the stars is mentioned, says he's going to use it and all 7 Chaos Emeralds to fulfill the retribution, which is to destroy the planet. And the only other time it was actually fired was when it was used to destroy the Black Comment, which we don't know durable it is so calculating that would not be very relevant.

    So in conclusion, it's decided we should go by accurate translators here instead of relying on English localizations, and that the Japanese word Hoshi can mean planets or stars, and we should go by context and/or feats rather than word definitions and assuming, "It said star in all of these translations, so it means star" for how such statements and would be feats are treated.

    Open for more thoughts, but preferably it should be heard from more staff input as well as those familiar with the Japanese language.

      Loading editor
    • I'm not sure how relevant the sonic thing is here, but don't we already do this?

      Also, why wouldn't we take the localizations? Don't they need to be approved by the original source?

        Loading editor
    • Hoshi is probably just “celestial object”, and while it’s not used in English because it’s long and inconvenient, it’s used more commonly in Japanese because that’s how languages work.

        Loading editor
    • The thread is mostly about what context we accept for Eclipse Cannon as you can see in the blog. Some other verses listed are mainly examples of this. And there are plenty of examples discussed on the blogs on how inconsistent and unreliable localisations have been. The goal is to go by the most accurate an reliable context; simple as that.

        Loading editor
    • Was a thread really necessary for something as obvious as this one? If a language uses a vague word to call something, you use context to understand it. There’s really nothing worth making a thread for.

        Loading editor
    • I mean if both the respected fan translators and one of the games English version say that it's star, I don't see how them blowing up a planet's a contradiction. You can absolutely blow up a planet with a tier 4 weapon, it's not like the planet's established as a hard cap, and it would seem odd for some technological marvel like the Eclipse Cannon to not even let you control the power you wanna expend anyways.

        Loading editor
    • ""They are going to destroy the planet" in other cut scenes""

      That statment was about the Ark crashing into the Earth, not the cannon

      "And listing all the calculated feats, we have a [City Busting feat calculated at 6-B which was done with the empowerment with 5 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds. Destroying a large part of the moon calculated at 5-B+ originally in the blog, but recalculated at Low 5-B as seen below in the comments and listed somewhere on DarkAnine's wall that he's okay with that, which was done with 6 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds."

      The first feat was a warning shot against the president and again not even at full power, the second the same, and seeing how one emerald boosted the cannon from low 6-B to low 5-B with a warning shot, there's nothing against it increasing to 5-A (the accepted end) with the actual full power

      "It was about to be fired and destroy the Earth in Sonic Adventure 2, as well as when Biolizard merges with it to crash onto the Earth"

      This is a AoE fallacy, just because they were planning to destroy the planet doesn't mean they can only destroy the planet and nothing more, and the Final Hazard is already 5-A and everything

      "And in one route, Black Doom says in the same video where piercing the stars is mentioned,, says he's going to use it and all 7 Chaos Emeralds to destroy humanity"

      He never says that he is going to destroy humanity, only he will fulfil the prosperity ritual, which is revealed in the last story (1:00) that's teleporting the Black Comett to the Earth, not destroy humanity

      All in all nothing contradicts the star statment

        Loading editor
    • The problem isn't that "A Tier 4 weapon can destroy a planet" the problem is that there's 0 evidence that it can destroy stars given the contradicting word "Hoshi". And yes, the Black Comet was going to bring ruin to the Earth, but that's still not quite a Tier 4 feat. It's also preferable to calculate feats that actually happen on screen instead of relying on vague statements based on one word that doesn't exactly have a consistent meaning. Mainly other verses used star in every English translation and still only got accepted as planet level.

      Still, I mainly made this by Antvasima's request, and would prefer to here from more staff before doing anything.

        Loading editor
    • Except every single translation, both official and fan, uses stars and the Eclipse Cannon never fired at full power at anything and all statments were too show how powerful it is by both characters knoweledble on the cannon and Gerald, and that word has been consistanly been used as star in literaly every single translation, so in this case it has consistanly the meaning of star, and DDM, the feat is still tier 5 as well, the accepted end was high into 5-A, not tier 4

      Statments can be used unless contradicted and that statment in neither contradicted nor a mistranlation for reasons already explained

      Wok already gave his thoughts, but if you want even more than alright

        Loading editor
    • Please, show us this imaginary dub of Black Doom stating the Eclipse Cannon will destroy the planet in that same line that was used.

      The sub for the line is stars, the dub is stars for all the ones i could find. Windii used the word stars for the line and I am really not seeing any reason to be doubting his skill in him determining it be accurate to the context.

        Loading editor
    • The Everlasting said this.

      I feel like just using the English version of something doesn't really help. Final Fantasy XV consistently calls the planet a star in the English localization.

      Also, Wokistan hasn't really commented on the main premise but just questioned it. And assuming "Hoshi" means star by default is kind of the same thing as saying Sekai (Japanese word for World) means Universe by default.

      Also, planet statement comes from this

        Loading editor
    • Wokistan wrote: I mean if both the respected fan translators and one of the games English version say that it's star, I don't see how them blowing up a planet's a contradiction. You can absolutely blow up a planet with a tier 4 weapon, it's not like the planet's established as a hard cap, and it would seem odd for some technological marvel like the Eclipse Cannon to not even let you control the power you wanna expend anyways.

      I think this is a comment

      Again though, you said yourself that both the fan translation and the official one use star. With the other verses, I'm pretty sure the fans disagree and call it a planet.

        Loading editor
    • The official one should hold more weight, but its the same line getting translated.

        Loading editor
    • We are not doing what Ever said at all, we are both using the English version and realible fan translations, unless anyone can debunk the translations outside the fact hoshi has many meanings even though people who live in Japan and translate things for a living said it was star, that goes above peoples interpretations

      I mean if both the respected fan translators and one of the games English version say that it's star, I don't see how them blowing up a planet's a contradiction

      This is very clearly about the main premise and let's stop talking about what people meant by what they say when they are straight up here

        Loading editor
    • The Contradiction is just the word Hoshi; it just means celestial object, it doesn't mean star by default. And I brought up the Final Fantasy XV example. The planet they're on is called star by both the localization and called Hoshi in the Japanese version. So the number of things that simply use the word star/Hoshi don't really hold up a lot of weight.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:

      Also, planet statement comes from this

      That is not the same line used in the calc.

        Loading editor
    • Except the fans who know japanese translated it as star and not as planet and anything else, the FF analogy Falls flat when we aren't only using the English translation but also respected fan ones

        Loading editor
    • But this isn't final fantasy where the translations are contradictory, it apparently was translated as the same thing by both parties with the fan translation even translating the planet ones as star, according to you.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Also, planet statement comes from this

      Literaly seconds after this Black Doom calls them ignorant fools and says that not his plan at all

        Loading editor
    • That was Black Doom playing the self fulfilling prophet; which is very common for a lot of villains. And basically the "Death is their only salvation" attitude. And it's the exact same context that the word Hoshi is used in the original Japanese version regarding both verses.

        Loading editor
    • This is so obvious.

      Unless there's contextual proof that it's a star, don't assume it's talking about them. Specially when we're dealing with series mostly set on a single planet and where the threat of the planet being destroyed is what's primarily being conveyed.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, we are assuming they are talking about the stars because the direct line is translated in English for us with whom worked on making it story context accurate between languages. The meaning for the line context was given with the official translation to begin with. 

        Loading editor
    • Except literaly every single translation uses stars from people who know their language like their back of their hand and the actual game itself, and both statments were refering to how strong the Eclipse Cannon can be so the context of it destroying the planet is irrelevant, plus Black Doom statment wasn't about destroying the planet

      Black Doom straight up says, explicitaly so, the he would keep humans alive as energy sources for his children, and that's show when the little Black Arms try to eat Sonic and Co

      The FF analogy still falls flat when literaly every single translation both official and fan uses stars intead of planet, Hoshi meaning many things doesn't make a interpretation better than people actualy knoweledge on the language

        Loading editor
    • English localization make bad translations all the time; NoA Zelda for instance using "Rule over the Cosmos" when the Japanese version said Sekai, which means World. And World doesn't mean universe by default. So Hoshi shouldn't mean star by default. Also, I agree with Matt that if the consistency is clearly just a planetary threat, we simply treat "Hoshi" statements as planetary feats. If scaling is used, sure but this isn't about the scaling but just the specific feat. Matthew Schroeder is also knowledgable on the series and is familiar with Hoshi statements as well, so he's just as if not more credible than Windi.

        Loading editor
    • You seem to be ignoring how by your own admission, the fan double check actually corroborates star, as opposed to contradicting it.

      I don't really do verses that need translation from other languages (besides berserk but there's not been issues with that), but my understanding is that the other star/planet stuff went to planet because fan double checks said planet instead. Well, you yourself say that isn't happening here. Therefore, there's not really a reason to go to that.

        Loading editor
    • Dub Black Doom stating the Eclipse Cannon piercing Stars. https://youtu.be/wsa9fQrLC6Y

        Loading editor
    • The entire point DDM is that it isn't only the official translation but literaly everyone who is knoweledge on both the series and japanese translated it as star

      We aren't assuming it's star, we have proof that it is because of numerous translations versus actualy assuming it's planet because hoshi means many things

        Loading editor
    • It doesn't fall flat, because anyone both fan and official can translate it to mean star. The Final Fantasy example doesn't fall flat at all and is 100% correlated to the Sonic example. Arguing against it is called double standard. Trust me, I have been looking up far more threads regarding the translations that have consistently only approved it as meaning planet.

        Loading editor
    • why even bring that up then

      The final fantasy example also really doesn't apply. They said a weapon can destroy stars, not that it was going to destroy the star that they were standing on or whatever. Wouldn't be the only star busting death ray anyways and it's not like people out here tanking the eclipse cannon

        Loading editor
    • No it isn't because those "fans" are people who translate things for a living and translated multiple times, they have actual knowlege so they are valid

      The example is flat because only the English version saud so, no people knowlege translated it as well

      At this point you are making your opinion>>>>actual statments, which isn't valid

        Loading editor
    • I’m beginning to realize despite how broken he is, Archie Sonic’s lore makes more sense than Game Sonic’s

        Loading editor
    • archie sonic lore is also batshit insane, there's a scene where the bee's friend overdoses on LSD and dies in an alleyway and a baby is microwaved

      Still less wonky than the games though, I agree

        Loading editor
    • Hoshi can literally mean a comet or satellite. Default assumption aint even a planet. 

      Seeing as how the english version gives context behind the word's multiple usage by using said term as star. Its pretty obvious.

        Loading editor
    • It's not just my opinion, it's the very standards of this very wiki. And no, people literally have fan translated Final Fantasy XV's planet to mean star just as much as Sonic has. So yes it does hold the weight. And words aside, the context and the literal plot of the game is focused on treating it as a Planetary feat. And saying it can mean comet or satellite only weakens the argument that "It means star."

        Loading editor
    • But it's a totally different scenario there. That's a blatant contradiction, but there's no such example here.

      Got any proof that we assume planet no matter what and not that we've assumed planet in the past due to people being able to successfully argue that other things, be they alt translations or context, are contradictory?

      It's not even like appeal to tradition is infallible but that's just more tedious to change and I don't really have a stake in it to justify spending time on that

        Loading editor
    • It isn't "Planet no matter what" it's just English localization hold 0 weight at all period. And we clearly see it being aimed at the planet rather than the sun and it never actually demonstrated planet busting feats let alone star piercing feats. So planet is the more consistent and contextual standard being used here.

      Both Triforce and Matt appear to be reasonable here.

        Loading editor
    • It also wasn't even allowed to fire until it was pointed at the black comet

      The fact that they were threatening a planet also isn't really contradictory anyways. The gun's said to be able to pop stars, and they threaten to blow up a planet with it. Okay, cool. The latter doesn't cancel the former because it's not like eggman is like "at full power, it will finally blow up the planet" or something else that implies the planet's an upper limit.

        Loading editor
    • Mephistus wrote: Hoshi can literally mean a comet or satellite. Default assumption aint even a planet. 

      Seeing as how the english version gives context behind the word's multiple usage by using said term as star. Its pretty obvious.

      Heavenly body and star are the most common usage of 星 in japanese when refering to both Planets and Stars. So in most cases, the conclusion heavily relies on context to determine the meaning the writer intends to use for 星

      Not arguing for or against. Just explaining how this wiki should start treating 星 with caution

        Loading editor
    • Wokistan, Mephistus, and Theuser789 are the ones making sense here.

        Loading editor
    • Also ngl but saying the English version holds absolutely zero weight seems kinda insane imo. It's ultimately still the product that is sent out and experienced, and the product that is what is being analyzed. While some mishaps will happen, buy and large if a company is willing to allow for the release of a game translated in such a state it does not consider the result sufficiently objectionable to withhold a release which means we shouldn't just eschew it entirely. Consider it subordinate to fan translations? Sure, I don't really give a fuck, but I think it can still be useful here and there.

      (yes I do mean as a general thing with this)

        Loading editor
    • SleepyTBubble is also very right, and the most accurate translation is just Celestial body. It can pierce a celstial body, and then it says destroy the planet; but celestial body can mean anything and doesn't mean star by default. So it shouldn't be the first assumption and should go by context and other feats before assuming anything.

        Loading editor
    • I’m for a possibly rating for the Eclipse Cannon, as both sides are making sense to me on this.

        Loading editor
    • Anyways I don't really have the time or interest to continue with this so that'll probably be where I leave off unless I get summoned later or something

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: SleepyTBubble is also very right, and the most accurate translation is just Celestial body. It can pierce a celstial body, and then it says destroy the planet; but celestial body can mean anything and doesn't mean star by default. So it shouldn't be the first assumption and should go by context and other feats before assuming anything.

      I still honestly have no idea what you're getting at.

      > It translates to stars by multiple sources, be it Sega of America as well as reliable translators such as Windii

      > Threatening the planet in no way means that that's the upper limit of it's power, and lower feats don't contradict the potential for higher ones.

      If it's said to pierce stars over and over, and is translated to that repeatedly by different sources, then it obviously means the intent of what was being said was obviously referrencing a star. You can only go so far with cancelling context by using feats, DDM. There's a limit to be had here.

        Loading editor
    • Tier 4 Saitama.

        Loading editor
    • Don't start with this, Cal.

      That comparison was beaten into the ground amd torn apart.

        Loading editor
    • @Wokistan

      Depends. Sometimes, some series gets the short end of the stick and are presented with an awful official translation/localization that completely gutters what the original writing had in. A famous example is Fortissimo for which anyone who know japanese would tell you just how much SakuraGame screwes it up pretty badly with it. There's Moenovel which was another famous example as they were known for their not so good to outright horrible localization. I've seen my fair share of localization ending up mistranslating an entire wall of sentences despite being "supervised". I can very much name you a lot of works that even when undergoing through multitude of analyses (Most of this goes to both the translators and the proofreaders) are pure shit.

      I am not abolishing the idea of using english translations at all. However, if possible (emphasis on this), it would be wise to depend on the original language the series was written in (especially when it comes to japanese series).

      Going back to topic at hand. Just look at the context 星 was used in and make a deduction out of it.

        Loading editor
    • I have had more experience reading looking localizations and original Japanese translations being compared and contrasted. And so have other Admins. And actually, the most accurate definition of the word Hoshi as Sleeping Bubble and Triforce said is "Celestial body", which can literally mean anything from comets, to planets, to stars. The last of which is the most superlative of the bunch. And it's against the wiki's standards to use the most superlative definition without elaborate context.

      No one said, the best thing it did was destroyed the planet making planet level the upper limit of the cast, only that the feat in question has no proof of being Tier 4 or High 5-A. All that's being said is context is more important than word definitions and it doesn't matter how many people say it means star when there clearly is no final translation. It's the very reason feats are above statements is because actual context and miscommunications are a thing. Still the best provable feat is still Tier 5. If there are other calculations/feats characters have, then sure. But this feat itself doesn't hold enough weight.

        Loading editor
    • Uh, cool? I guess being an admin makes you above not only reliable fan translators, but the company that dubbed the game itself. What a world, amirite?

      The proof is within the translations. I believe the "final translation" is from Sega itself. The initial doubt was that it could've been referring to a planet/celestial body or whatever. What seperated it was that there are multiple translations pointing to it talking about stars. You're straying away from what caused this debate to begin with.

        Loading editor
    • ShakeResounding wrote: Don't start with this, Cal.

      That comparison was beaten into the ground amd torn apart.

      Except it wasn’t. Planets don’t collapse. Stars do. Yet the hoshi statement applies. Heck, Cell outright says Solar System and that was scrutinized to heck and back. Not even hoshi there. All context points to planet because that was what was at stake. Yet star here? Heck, I even talked to Sera and she said hoshi is planet 90% of the time.

        Loading editor
    • ShakeResounding wrote: Uh, cool? I guess being an admin makes you above not only reliable fan translators, but the company that dubbed the game itself. What a world, amirite?

      You’re right. We should allow Alien X be omnipotent, Rick Sanchez to be 2-A, Dante to be 3-A based on feats in DMC1, Bayonetta to be stronger than Dante, and Spider-Man to be on the level of Thor at the very least speedwise. Cuz that’s what the companies say.

      Oh and Kale and Caulifla are lesbians and Dragon Maid is anti-patriarchy because that’s what the dubs say.

        Loading editor
    • The planet being at stake is not something that contradicts Tier 4 power, as Wokistan had already said above. It was threatening the planet, yes, but that in no way means that that's the limit. Stars are what was translated, and threatening the planet has no influence on that.

        Loading editor
    • Except yes. It is. Feats. Are. Greater. Than. Statements. Look me in the eyes and say that the context implies star over planet.

        Loading editor
    • Theuser789 wrote:
      The entire point DDM is that it isn't only the official translation but literaly everyone who is knoweledge on both the series and japanese translated it as star

      Then the official translation and these so-called "knowledgeable people" are all freaking wrong. Yeah, I'm not going to trust a fan translation I never heard of until now. And do understand that the Earth can be called a "Star" in Japanese.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Except yes. It is. Feats. Are. Greater. Than. Statements. Look me in the eyes and say that the context implies star over planet.

      If that’s the case, is the eclipse cannon just be 5-C or High 6-A, based on feats we’ve seen?

        Loading editor
    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      If that’s the case, is the eclipse cannon just be 5-C or High 6-A, based on feats we’ve seen?

      Yes. We have never seen it destroy a single planet.

        Loading editor
    • Because it was never used with the intent to destroy the planet. It was shot at the moon as a damn warning

        Loading editor
    • It performed a 6-B feat with 5 Emeralds, obvious low end feat that could be passed but a feat none of the less. And it as a Low 5-B feat, which is consistent-ish, and multiple statements about it having the power to destroy a planet even if it gets throttled before it happens.

        Loading editor
    • I had a feeling some massive argument would start once Sonic was involved

        Loading editor
    • I’m in general agreement with Wokistan here but I don’t feel like getting into this.

        Loading editor
    • Also the Earth is never called a star in any legit translation. If a translation calls the Earth a star, it’s very bad. And no Final Fantasy doesn’t count, it’s an outlier because those localizations butcher context all the freaking time. When directly referring to the Earth, “sekai”, “wakusei”, or “chikyuu” would be used. Hoshi does mean “celestial body” and context is required but “Earth is called a star in Japanese” is just bonkers.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: Also the Earth is never called a star in any legit translation. If a translation calls the Earth a star, it’s very bad. And no Final Fantasy doesn’t count, it’s an outlier because those localizations butcher context all the freaking time. When directly referring to the Earth, “sekai”, “wakusei”, or “chikyuu” would be used. Hoshi does mean “celestial body” and context is required but “Earth is called a star in Japanese” is just bonkers.

      Not really. We have Nasuverse using Hoshi when refering to planets for examples so it's not really off

        Loading editor
    • Actually, some of the dubs that used "Destroy the planet" has "Pierce the stars" as their Japanese text in Sonic Adventure 2. So Earth has been called Hoshi in some alterations like many other mistranslation localization end even original Japanese. And maybe "Earth is called a star in Japanese" wasn't right, but it is called "Hoshi" or "Celestial Body," in Japanese. And even One Punch Man called Earth Hoshi as mentioned above.

        Loading editor
    • @Sleepy

      I know, but that’s because they talk about other planets. I was specifically referring to just the Earth. Usually with Earth they wouldn’t just call it a celestial body, there’s plenty of words for Earth than just calling it “a celestial body”.

        Loading editor
    • @Sera

      What do you mean, Earth is never called a star? We have one such example of this very thing happening in the starter post for the thread. In One Punch Man anime, Boros states "I'll send you and this entire planet straight to hell!" when he's charging the Collapsing Star Roaring Cannon at Saitama, and in the Japanese Dub he outright says "Hoshi".

      He's unambiguously using a word that can mean "star" to refer to Earth.

        Loading editor
    • Also, on topic, even the Moon has been called a Hoshi in Japanese before.

        Loading editor
    • Lol. In Sailor Moon they use hoshi for everything. Even for people. 

      There's a feat in the first arc that has been a bit of debate. It's either large star or large planet. And we have mutiple official english translations that have translated it into star and also as planet. 

      For things like this, you might just have to flip a coin and see where it fits best. 

        Loading editor
    • Boros isn’t from Earth, of course he’d call it a “celestial body”. That’s why I said “directly” referring to the Earth as in (in English) “I’m going to blow up the Earth” will rarely ever be translated as hoshi.

        Loading editor
    • Da Vinci did use the kanji hoshi to refer to Earth though? Not strictly for other planets but also that of our Earth

        Loading editor
    • Hoshi simply means every celestial body right like planet, moon, stars, asteroids etc

        Loading editor
    • Regardless, this is veering away from the point here so I’ll digress.

        Loading editor
    • In samurai 8 mostly uses hoshi which is why it's confusing if characters are actually casual planet busters or casual star busters

        Loading editor
    • Anyway i'll be out from this thread unless something major is brought up

        Loading editor
    • The main premise is just that it doesn't sound like "星を貫く (Hoshi o tsuranuku meaning penetrating the celestial bodies)" is a reliable statement about having the capacity to punch a hole through the sun and should go by either shown feats or other feats instead relying on this specific statement. We usually calculate on screen feats also.

        Loading editor
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote:
      The entire point DDM is that it isn't only the official translation but literaly everyone who is knoweledge on both the series and japanese translated it as star

      Then the official translation and these so-called "knowledgeable people" are all freaking wrong. Yeah, I'm not going to trust a fan translation I never heard of until now. And do understand that the Earth can be called a "Star" in Japanese.

      Unless you have any actual proof that your opinion is better than knoweledble people and the freaking game then it means nothing at all

      I can literaly show all the games, scripts, in game dialogue and even beta script that Wiindii has translated

      No one in this thread has proved why it would be planet except hoshi meaning many things

        Loading editor
    • Theuser789
      Theuser789 removed this reply because:
      Double post
      09:32, November 8, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Theuser789 wrote: ""They are going to destroy the planet" in other cut scenes""

      That statment was about the Ark crashing into the Earth, not the cannon

      "And listing all the calculated feats, we have a [City Busting feat calculated at 6-B which was done with the empowerment with 5 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds. Destroying a large part of the moon calculated at 5-B+ originally in the blog, but recalculated at Low 5-B as seen below in the comments and listed somewhere on DarkAnine's wall that he's okay with that, which was done with 6 out of 7 Chaos Emeralds."

      The first feat was a warning shot against the president and again not even at full power, the second the same, and seeing how one emerald boosted the cannon from low 6-B to low 5-B with a warning shot, there's nothing against it increasing to 5-A (the accepted end) with the actual full power

      "It was about to be fired and destroy the Earth in Sonic Adventure 2, as well as when Biolizard merges with it to crash onto the Earth"

      This is a AoE fallacy, just because they were planning to destroy the planet doesn't mean they can only destroy the planet and nothing more, and the Final Hazard is already 5-A and everything

      "And in one route, Black Doom says in the same video where piercing the stars is mentioned,, says he's going to use it and all 7 Chaos Emeralds to destroy humanity"

      He never says that he is going to destroy humanity, only he will fulfil the prosperity ritual, which is revealed in the last story (1:00) that's teleporting the Black Comett to the Earth, not destroy humanity

      All in all nothing contradicts the star statment

      Reposting this because here I refute this whole argument against the Eclipse Cannon """max""" being planet even though it never fired at full power

      Nothing contradicts star translation outside of some people opinions here that aren't supported, hell even Sera who lives in japan agrees with the translations, unless anyone here has any prove they are wrong outside of bad analogys then there's not much to discuss

      And the Boros thing is not a good analogy as already explained, he was firing it at Earth and unlike the Eclipse Cannon no translation translated it as planet, and the move having star doesn't make it tier 4, a actual good analogy is Vegeta's Big Bang attack, which is just a name

        Loading editor
    • Outside of the feats argument, which I don't want to get into right now since honestly it's a bit irrelevant when discussing the validity of a statment's translation, I'm still not seeing what contradicts the star statement myself. Sega of America are pretty competent at translations. They aren't like Viz Media. If the official translation says stars, I don't know why it should be ignored. Also, if it's by multiple sources, I don't see the issue here. Now I'm arguing specifically about the translation's validity. Whether or not the statements itself are reliable is another story I'm not interested in.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      The main premise is just that it doesn't sound like "星を貫く (Hoshi o tsuranuku meaning penetrating the celestial bodies)" is a reliable statement about having the capacity to punch a hole through the sun and should go by either shown feats or other feats instead relying on this specific statement. We usually calculate on screen feats also.

      https://imgur.com/lw72deb

      "Pierce through stars" is what I'm gonna roll with for the Black Doom statement due to common translation and Windii's fluency here. 

      We don't have a reason to think that Black Doom is incompetent or lying intent about the power of the cannon seeing as he spent time with Gerald and shiz making his mini-me.

      The feat not being on-screen means little when the feat is framed in such a way where it can be modeled appropriately for a calc. 

      Calc was accepted, barring the hoshi translation controversy brought to this thread, so yeah, that's really all I have to say on that.

        Loading editor
    • Sera herself admitted that Hoshi means planet 90% of the time as Cal mentioned above. And what it specifically means is "Celestial body". The point wasn't "The feat happened off screen" the fact was there feat doesn't even exist to begin with. Penetrating Hoshi could be referring to Mars, the moon, Jupiter, Saturn, or even Pluto. While it can mean star, it doesn't mean star by default. Sekai means world which can mean universe, but it doesn't mean universe by default and assuming Hoshi means star by default is no different.

      And actually, I can think of examples where Sega of America fucked up translations big time; Phantasy Star and Zero Wing are both examples of this. They made numerous "Bimmy and jimmy" levels of mistranslations.

      Anyway, I still think Matt and Everlasting have the best sense of judgement here.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: Outside of the feats argument, which I don't want to get into right now since honestly it's a bit irrelevant when discussing the validity of a statment's translation, I'm still not seeing what contradicts the star statement myself. Sega of America are pretty competent at translations. They aren't like Viz Media. If the official translation says stars, I don't know why it should be ignored. Also, if it's by multiple sources, I don't see the issue here. Now I'm arguing specifically about the translation's validity. Whether or not the statements itself are reliable is another story I'm not interested in.

      Sera explicitaly said the translation was right, don't do false appeals

      Yes there is, literaly every single translation uses star, there's no reason to assume otherwise just because some people don't think so

      Statments are feats lol, there's nothing to argue here

      This is becoming circular, unless anyone proves why their translation would be more correct than people actualy knoweledge on the series and their language then there's no reason to not use star nor the statment, no matter how much you repeat how many things can mean Hoshi

        Loading editor
    • She told Cal off site that Hoshi means planet 90% of the time, but then said star might be fine later. I was there, so I can post a scan if needed. It was when she came here she decided to support star, but it was still an awkward U-turn and honestly contradicted herself on what she told us on Discord.

      Statements are not feats, and the number of translations =/= the most accurate translation possible. The most accurate translation possible just says celestial body, not star specifically because that's what the word Hoshi literally means.

      I also know people who live in Japan who think the star statement. Matt is also knowledgeable on the series as well as having some pretty good knowledge in some Japanese words or phrases. Also, she said it herself that she's not interested in the validity of the statement translating for a tier. Because even if the translation is accurate it doesn't make the statement accurate.

        Loading editor
    • It doesn't matter what Sera says off-site when she literally disagrees with you on the thread itself.

      Phantasy Star and Zero Wing aren't Sonic. The difference here is that, as a few have ssaid repeatedly, everybody's translating this line into star.

        Loading editor
    • Doesn't matter what she said off site, stop speaking on behalf of her when she straight up can say and has said herself in here

      Yes, statments can be, multiple characters are rated via statments, and all accurate translation of people who know what hoshi can mean used star, just because it can mean many things doesn't mean it isn't star when everyone knoweledble on the series used star

      Post prove of those people, and Matt is not on the same level of someone who translated multiple games, their in game dialogue and scripts and literaly lives there because he knows some japanese

      Again, this is circular

        Loading editor
    • She only said she disagreed with saying the translation is inaccurate, she said she was neutral on the specific statement and that she doesn't really care. They're both still games made by Sega, which debunks the idea that "Sega of America is actually pretty competent" as the reason for it. We have never accepted Hoshi busting/piercing as meaning star busting/piercing for any other verse unless actually demonstrated, Sonic would literally be the only one if we made that exception.

      Matt still knows full well what Hoshi means, which is more than enough. Also, our job is to make sure what context meets the balance of our system, which the "Piercing the celestial bodies" statement does not hold up.

        Loading editor
    • Black Doom is a credible person for the statement; credible and uncontradicted statements are used all the time on this site if feats are not adaquate for a correct higher tiering than what feats would give. 

      Just because the story didn't give way to a situation where a star was threatened, doesn't mean that the statement doesn't hold up. We don't have a cap on the cannon's power, so there isn't a reason to disbeleive the statement.  

        Loading editor
    • The difference is that a lot of those statements actually had numerous back ups and the fact and/or the story actually has shown some of those other things being in jeopardy. The statement has about as much reliability as "Temari blowing away the Universe". Also, there has legit been a statement of "I'm going to pierce the Hoshi" When clearly aiming it at Earth indicates it not meaning star.

        Loading editor
    • Yet Black Doom’s statement is backed up by the fact that he had worked with Gerald Robotnik on the Space Colony ARK, so he 100% knows what the Eclipse Cannon is capable of. He has no reason to lie or exaggerate the situation.

        Loading editor
    • Stop making false analogies, just because other series didn't get that doesn't that Sonic is wrong, this makes you look biased because your favorite series

      Unless anyone here can prove why translations made by Wiindii and multiple knoweledge people even in this thread itself are inacurate then this argument is going nowhere

      And don't move the goalpost, this thread was about the statment being translated right, not using it for scaling yet

        Loading editor
    • And yet we don't actually seem him pierce a single star. Speaking of which, even "piercing a star" isn't even specific enough. For all we know, all it means is just slightly piercing a star. Imagine I had a Giant drill and made a building sized creator, I technically did pierce the Earth, just not very much of it. It shouldn't be assumed he pierced all the way through it, or how wide the hole is.

      Also, don't be hypocrites and use, "You're biased" as an argument. The verses I like more or less has nothing regarding which feats/statements are accurate or have legitimacy. And the goal post was the legitimacy of the feat/statement regardless of translation. Has nothing to do with the scaling as other feats can be used.

        Loading editor
    • Stop moving the goal post, this thread was about the translation being accurate, not scaling

      We don't """see""" because the Eclipse Cannon only fired with all at the Comet, and Occam's razor goes against all of your assumptions

      Except you were using that because it isn't valid in your verse then it isn't valid here when the context is completely diferent, thus looking biased

      Yes, the legit of the translation was the object, that's on the title of the thread and everything, not the feat validity.

        Loading editor
    • The fact that going through something means that it has to fit through it?

      The same giant drill would have to fit through a hole width if it went clean through the earth and you dug down.

      The beam has to fit through to dig through a star.

        Loading editor
    • Also, that's a strawman. A lot of examples I use aren't even "My verse". But rather, consistency on the word "Hoshi", the credibility on Sega of America, and the validity of the statement regardless of translations. They're not assumptions, they're scientific facts. It's the arguments used against me that are the real "Assumptions".

        Loading editor
    • I'm getting pretty tired of this whole "Sera said this off-site but said this on-site" babble that's been going on since the 2-B thread.

      My point is:

      You will never see a legitimate JP to ENG translated sentence that says "The Earth is a star". Bad translations like FGO's infamous "the planet is now a desolate star" are fan translations.

      I realize now that Matt didn't mean that the Earth is literally a star so I apologize for nitpicking and derailing, but I still stand by the possibility that this is likely a Tier 4 statement. I don't care if it's legit or not. One thing you aren't gonna do is say a translation is completely different because of feats and other vs debating bullshit would contradict it. That's just not gonna fly with me. The translation can be legit even if the statement implies an outlier.

        Loading editor
    • Your only example was FF which is a verse you like, I said you looked biased doing that, when the entire arguments is analogies

      Hoshi is consistanly star, I already explained multiple times that the statment was valid for various reasons you haven't adreesed

      Occam's razor would still imply those """facts""" are wrong

        Loading editor
    • I'm only a fan of the first 7 Final Fantasy games, I don't actually like FF XV all that much, so that was a false assumption. It's not even one of my favorite verses either. Hoshi also means planet more often than star. Someone also brought up Sailor Moon as an example, where even humans called planet Earth a Hoshi. That's another strong example of Hoshi's inconsistency. It doesn't change the fact that Hoshi just means celestial body in general regardless of what English localization or fan translations say.

      I also agree with Sera about using her name back and forth and apologize for that. But still, planet makes far more sense then star here.

        Loading editor
    • Sega shouldn't be defaultly assumed to incorrectly translate the word over to begin with.

      This is literally going in circles and restated arguements. 

      And pulling the unreliable statement card when its in universe narrative and not a naruto guidebook....really?

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Sera herself admitted that Hoshi means planet 90% of the time as Cal mentioned above. And what it specifically means is "Celestial body". The point wasn't "The feat happened off screen" the fact was there feat doesn't even exist to begin with. Penetrating Hoshi could be referring to Mars, the moon, Jupiter, Saturn, or even Pluto. While it can mean star, it doesn't mean star by default. Sekai means world which can mean universe, but it doesn't mean universe by default and assuming Hoshi means star by default is no different.

      Also, that's a strawman. A lot of examples I use aren't even "My verse". But rather, consistency on the word "Hoshi", the credibility on Sega of America, and the validity of the statement regardless of translations. They're not assumptions, they're scientific facts. It's the arguments used against me that are the real "Assumptions".

      DDM, you were strawmanning yourself when you said they were assuming hoshi meant star by default when that clearly wasn’t what they were saying.

        Loading editor
    • Here's the deal breaker:

      If Black Doom was referring to the Earth itself, hoshi means "planet". If he was referring to something plural, hoshi means "many planets/stars". Context is more important than the meaning of the word.

        Loading editor
    • We already discussed on hoshi meaning many things doesn't mean it isn't star and explained why it isn't

      If a official translation and multiple knoweledge people say it's star, that goes above your interpretation, unless you can prove why your interpretation is more correct than people who know the language and the game itself then it means nothing

      This is going in circles, you explain hoshi means many things, I explain why it's star, you repeat the first, I repeat myself ad infinutum

        Loading editor
    • @Sera given that the Space Colony Ark is located at the Earth's orbit, the primary purpose is to be used as a defense weapon against those who invade Earth, and Black Doom's Goal was to use it to conquer the world, and figuratively save humanity by literally destroying them. Which he destroys them by eating them alive;which is what he means by energy source is food. It sounds like Earth would be the closest link/reference to what Black Doom is using it for. Same with Shadow in one of the Dark Ending says "I'm going to destroy this damn planet!" Which Gerald then tells Shadow it is the only thing that can destroy the black comet. And that's another thing, Hoshi doesn't really have an extra s to really indicate if it's plural or not making it difficult to give a full context.

      Also, it's a massive stretch to assume it can pierce multiple stars at once if it's never been shown to do anything remotely close to that. And even piercing the sun from the Earth would imply other things that might make the feat more outlierish. I still stand that Piercing the Earth is the most reliable context.

      I also need to go to work soon, so I will be inactive for 9 hours.

        Loading editor
    • Increlible, everything you said was wrong( Star Wars reference), the Eclipse Cannon was made to destroy the Black Comett who literaly flys all over the Earth and the universe, and I literaly explained countless times that Black Doom didn't want to destroy the Earth, he wanted to keep humanity alive as a energy sources, he straight up teleports his home to the planet to consume humans, he was talking about how strong the cannon is, It literaly doesn't matter what he was going to do if he was talking about how strong the cannon is

      You saying it's a streach doesn't make it one when people who translate dozens of games in Japan used star, and it's not a outlier if the cannon never fired at 7 emeralds, I am literaly repeating myself here, if one single emerald boosted the cannon from 6-B to 5-B with warning shots than the sheer non linear expotencial increase would make this not a outlier. People who live and translate things for a living>>>>>your interpretation

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      And that's another thing, Hoshi doesn't really have an extra s to really indicate if it's plural or not making it difficult to give a full context.

      It being in plural form should if anything be that it was clarified in the translation as plural and not grossly overlooked by the official english translators working on the game who should have access to any additional context.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.