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  • The time has come.

    mobius are in 2A and has access to the ALE

    This is post-genesis wave super sonic.

    speed is =

    plot Mobius absorbed his universe of anti-matter and wants to destroy everything has come to a multiverse that I created a while ago the world forger to contain his brother if he gets out of control ... again, this multiverse is that of our favorite hedgehog that was abused by World forger of the threat his brother represents.

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    Sonic But Golden
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    • Bump

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    • Anti-bump

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    • Switching to super sonic pre-genesis to see if this has attention

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    • Hold on (checking Anti-Monitor’s wiki)

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    • What Acausality is the Anti-Monitor?

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    • In the multiverse (Acausality 1 since it was not affected by the crisis or the Flashpoint, it was previously a being of a higher dimension that would be type 4 but I don't know what happened to that), true being (Acausality 5)

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    • We should get that clear on Anti-Monitor’s wiki.

      Is speed equal? I kinda can’t tell in the OP.

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    • I am waiting for things to relax with the new system and to end the perpetual saga if something new comes out.

      to make a crt for that

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    • SwerzyeTheCreator
      SwerzyeTheCreator removed this reply because:
      sd
      00:43, November 7, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • stomp in sonics favor due to hax

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    • well it all depends who shoots first since the anti-manteria is something that sonic does not resist and I understand that the type 8 of sonic works like a mid-Godly and to regenerate the anti-matter would need a high-godly

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    • I know why Sonic stomps but I want see how they match up if we focus on their other attributes.

      How good of a fighter is the Anti-Monitor?

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    • Defeat the powered spectrum, stay with darkseid, defeat two Amazons playing and keep up with half of the characters of the Sinestro War.

      mostly it opens with hax as anti-manteria almost always, rarely starts with biological manipulation, then goes by CQC and finally uses the ALE

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    • CQC and ALE?

      I was asking because Archie Sonic is a combat Genius, being more skilled in a fight then people in his own power level, like Evil Sonic before he got a powered up above Base Sonic and turned into Scourge.

      In Sonic’s case, he fights a lot of enemies with a lot more raw power and durability than him, but Sonic just outskills them.

      Darksied is very powerful but I haven’t seen him outskill those in his same level. The two Amazons are impressively skilled fighters but I thought Anti-Moniter overpowered them, not outskilled them.

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    • Basically, Evil Sonic (Scourge) had to get more raw power than Prime Sonic to match Sonic in a fight because he kept getting outskilled.

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    • 1-CQC is when antimatter is not enough to erase your opponent.

      2-scourge lost it was for the convenience of the plot since they put a greater excess of confidence than he normally has and literally invented a stupid weakness when he detransforms from his super form.

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    • No, I meant Base Sonic vs Base Evil Sonic (before turning into Scourge).

      Base Sonic was low diff kicking Base Evil Sonic’s ass despite them both being at the same power level in Speed, Attack, Durability.

      Sonic outskilled him in many fights, forcing evil Sonic to boost his base power above Archie Sonic’s base level in order to match him in a fight.

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    • Okey

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    • So, in terms of combat, Archie Sonic has superiority over Anti-Monitor. Unless Anti-Monitor has an equivalent skill feat.

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    • Anti-Monitor: Durability: Multiverse level+ (Fought his equal in power, Mar Novu, for one million years before falling)

      Archie Sonic: Stamina: (Low 2-C) Extremely high. (Sonic can fight for hours without tiring and can take large amounts of punishment with only mild annoyances. He can endure things such as holding onto a rocket that's leaving the atmosphere, taking direct plasma blasts head-on, and harsh beatings. Despite this, Sonic is always quick to recover. |(2-A) Limitless | (potentially 2-A+) Limitless

      Seeing how Anti-Monitor fell against his equal and Archie Sonic low diff his equal, Sonic definitely has the upper hand in combat.

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    • Evil Sonic wasn't getting continuously outskilled by Sonic. They've had several fights where they were dead even. Heck their last fight before he became Scourge, ES had the upper hand and was getting ready to bash his head in with a rock. Only time ES was treated as fodder was with Antoine thought he was Sonic otherwise any advantage Sonic had over him was outside help. Scourge didn't use the Master Emerald because of Sonic, he used it because Locke was getting ready to put his boot up his and Rouge's asses.

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    • No, Sonic does outskill Evil Sonic. The fight before Evil Sonic turned to Scourge, he kept rushing into Prime Sonic only to get smacked back. Scourge (ES) got the upper hand when he threw rocks (rocks from the Low 2-C planet) at Prime Sonic.

      A move that took Prime Sonic, the guy who regularly dodged lasers, off guard as he never expected ES to resort to using weapons. Mostly because ES is Prime Sonic himself and Prime Sonic knows he’ll never use weapons.

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    • Also, Prime Sonic’s speed was limited in that fight since he wasn’t wearing his shoes. And he still made ES resort to using (Low 2-C)rocks.

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    • And in....

      The 1st time The Supression Squad and Freedom Fighters fought they were dead even and had to switch opponents to win, because their anti selves knew their moves.

      When they fought the very 1st time, Sonic win with help from Kintobor, because they were yet again, dead even.

      and yet again, when they were tag teaming with Knuckles and O'Knux they were dead even until Knux found out he was tricked.

      They have far more instances of being even with each other than saying Sonic has more skill because he threw a rock and sonic got his shoes back.

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    • Also what? Sonic's speed doesn't come from his shoes, it's natural.

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    • 1. This happened the first time they met:

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      ____________________________________________________ 2. This the 2nd time they fought.

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      ___________________________________________________ These are moments very early is Archie Sonic’s life, before he gain major fighting experience 100s of issues later. ES was never a major concern for Prime Sonic, despite them matching in Speed, Strength and Durability.

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    • https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5i51sEArYiA/VtpFCDtfSWI/AAAAAAAACxI/Hxc72aImw18/s0-Ic42/RCO009.jpg

      And above is what happen literally 2 pages after the 1st scan

      20191106 235101

      And this is blatant confirmation.

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    • Hst master wrote: Also what? Sonic's speed doesn't come from his shoes, it's natural.

      It does, however, the shoes give Sonic traction and don’t burn up when Sonic speeds up. His socks never burned up in that fight so Sonic never used his speed against ES while ES was running around.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      Hst master wrote: Also what? Sonic's speed doesn't come from his shoes, it's natural.

      It does, however, the shoes give Sonic traction and don’t burn up when Sonic speeds up. His socks never burned up in that fight so Sonic never used his speed against ES while ES was running around.

      Running around? Dude they were fighting in the emerald chamber and were in close quarters nearly the entire time.

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    • Hst master wrote: https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-5i51sEArYiA/VtpFCDtfSWI/AAAAAAAACxI/Hxc72aImw18/s0-Ic42/RCO009.jpg

      And above is what happen literally 2 pages after the 1st scan

      20191106 235101

      And this is blatant confirmation.

      1. That had nothing to do with Skill. Prime Sonic was leaving and ES used a cheap move. Evil Sonic can trip Prime Sonic, since they equal in Speed.

      2. Yeah, it confirms Sonic and ES match in Speed, Strength and Durability. Again, Prime Sonic didn’t have much fighting experience at that point in his history. He couldn’t finish off ES quickly and had to worry about fighting closely with his other Freedom Fighters.

      The fact that Tails finished ES in that fight says it all.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:

      Hst master wrote: Also what? Sonic's speed doesn't come from his shoes, it's natural.

      It does, however, the shoes give Sonic traction and don’t burn up when Sonic speeds up. His socks never burned up in that fight so Sonic never used his speed against ES while ES was running around.

      Running around? Dude they were fighting in the emerald chamber and were in close quarters nearly the entire time.

      Do you not see ES running around in that fight? (See green arrow)

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    • 1. That had nothing to do with Skill. Prime Sonic was leaving and ES used a cheap move. Evil Sonic can trip Prime Sonic, since they equal in Speed

      And you're "example" also has zero to do with skill. It's them running in donuts until Sonic stops.

      2. Yeah, it confirms Sonic and ES match in Speed, Strength and Durability. Again, Prime Sonic didn’t have much fighting experience at that point in his history. He couldn’t finish off ES quickly and had to worry about fighting closely with his other Freedom Fighters.

      They're the exact same age. So he's still fighting someone with just as much experince as he does. And also matching a person move for move isn't a speed Ap or dura feat, it's a skill feat as you can be equal in all those areas or stronger and still be outskilled. He didn't have to worry about the others because like Sally said, they were all evenly matched, I.E. no one had an advantage.

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    • Dude, that's not running. He can't run in mid air. He was recovering from getting thrown by Sonic and considering Sonic was the one who advanced, it contradicts your argument.

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    • Now is he more tempermental than Sonic and that can lead to mistakes like getting mauled by woodland creatures? Sure, but he's definitely not less skilled than him.

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    • 1. That is fair. They both used cheap moves.

      2. Saying they are equal in skill still very wrong. A. Evil Sonic does not have the life Archie Prime Sonic has with facing and learning his skills from Robotnik, Knuckles, Mogul, etc.

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      _______________________________________________________ B. If Evil Sonic actually had the skill of Prime Sonic’s, he won’t have been stopped by Tails while he was literally talking to Tails.

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    • What the hell? How is sonic Multiversal? Waiting for Archie Sonic CRTs fra

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    • ShisuiXItachi wrote: What the hell? How is sonic Multiversal? Waiting for Archie Sonic CRTs fra

      I tried to go against it but there were too many examples. Low 2-C Base Sonic CRT

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    • A. Instead he's fighting O'Knux, Rosie, at some point Rabs, and Kintobors bots.

      B. And yet he was matching Sonic just a few seconds ago. It's like saying Patch isn't as skilled as Sally even though he was the one that was heading the war against Eggman while Sonic was gone impersonating Antoine. It's just as much PIS as Sonic getting beaned with a rock.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      ShisuiXItachi wrote: What the hell? How is sonic Multiversal? Waiting for Archie Sonic CRTs fra

      I tried to go against it but there were too many examples. Low 2-C Base Sonic CRT

      He said multiversal not Universe+

      @Shisui

      Archie Sonic's Cosmology is 2-A.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      A. Instead he's fighting O'Knux, Rosie, at some point Rabs, and Kintobors bots.

      Where does it say ES fought O’Knux, the pacifist, before Scourge’s take over a lot? If even?

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      _______________________________________

      B. And yet he was matching Sonic just a few seconds ago. It's like saying Patch isn't as skilled as Sally even though he was the one that was heading the war against Eggman while Sonic was gone impersonating Antoine. It's just as much PIS as Sonic getting beaned with a rock.

      Patch was never shown to be fighting Robotnik, ever, unlike Antoine. The Anti-Freedom Fighters has shown no notable skill feats other than confusing the Freedom Fighters for looking and moving the same as them.

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    • He literally has sweepbots in the earlier scan that Anti Sonic and co fought. Not to mention Rabs was originally part of their gang, until she got kicked out after stuff with her legs and Alicia finding out she and AS were a thing. And O'Nux had made the orderix to protect the Island from the Supression Squad, until AS came back as Scourge.

      And what? The dude was moving through the ranks as Antoine because of his skill and ruthlessness on the battlefield.

      Again AS and Sonic were equal in Skill, Scourge is simply the more temperamental one and easier to get off his game. If you're the most skilled dude in the world and you have garbage temperament, it's gonna mess with your skill.

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    • Sweepbots is Evil Sonic’s skill training...

      While Archie Sonic was fighting a Universal Dictator (in technology), an immortal wanna be god, and magic sorcery.

      I don’t know why Rabs getting kick out is notable in this conversation about skill.

      Given Patch’s personality, he could very easily have taken someone else’s credit. Like how he poisoned and manipulated so many people.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Sweepbots is Evil Sonic’s skill training...

      While Archie Sonic was fighting a Universal Dictator (in technology), an immortal wanna be god, and magic sorcery.

      And yet was matched by Anti Sonic twice. Again he has better temperament. Not skill.

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    • I don’t know why Rabs getting kick out is notable in this conversation about skill.

      You asked why would she fight them and I gave the reason.

      Given Patch’s personality, he could very easily have taken someone else’s credit. Like how he poisoned and manipulated so many people.

      Assumptions. It's especially faulty given later on he again matches Antoine, whos no longer a punk. And poisoned so many people? He was only gonna poison Maximillan. And only manipulation he did was tricking people into thinking he was Antoine and trying to get Sonic jailed when he was close to his goal. Basing his skill off things that have nothing to do with skill when he was rising through the ranks makes no sense.

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    • Hst master wrote: A. Instead he's fighting O'Knux, Rosie, at some point Rabs, and Kintobors bots.

      I don’t remember asking about Rabs but if you are trying claim Evil Sonic fought a non-robotized Rabbot as evidence of him building his skill, well...

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    • And this proves? She's very much capable of fighting in the Omega Care Unit, as shown with Sonic fighting her. And again him matching sonic is more than enough. Your trying to discredit their skill when them matching their Counterparts twice even with all of what you tried use included is more than enough, heck for Scourge it's more than twice. Your mixing up temperament with skill

      -Insult Sonic and he simply banters back, keeps his cool (mostly)

      -Insult Anti-Sonic and he gets off his game.

      Temperament =/= skill. Again.

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    • Hst master wrote: Given Patch’s personality, he could very easily have taken someone else’s credit. Like how he poisoned and manipulated so many people.

      Assumptions. It's especially faulty given later on he again matches Antoine, whos no longer a punk. And poisoned so many people? He was only gonna poison Maximillan. And only manipulation he did was tricking people into thinking he was Antoine and trying to get Sonic jailed when he was close to his goal. Basing his skill off things that have nothing to do with skill when he was rising through the ranks makes no sense.

      Actually Patch got prompted when because of his new “attitude”. Not any sort of “battle” he had.

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    • Dude litterally in the same page Bunny explains how she thinks the war changed him and that he's more ruthless. It's blatant.

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    • ...are we seriously debating that Sonic has better fighting skill than the Anti-Monitor, who continuously fought the Monitor for a million years, both of whom commonly wage wars both on a multiversal and abstract, conceptual level, both of whom are extraordinary geniuses, and both of whom have casually defeated the greatest fighters of the DC Universe?

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    • Hst master wrote: And this proves? She's very much capable of fighting in the Omega Care Unit, as shown with Sonic fighting her. And again him matching sonic is more than enough. Your trying to discredit their skill when them matching their Counterparts twice even with all of what you tried use included is more than enough, heck for Scourge it's more than twice. Your mixing up temperament with skill

      And again him matching sonic is more than enough.

      Because Evil Sonic has all of Prime Sonic’s Speed, Strength, and Durability, Prime Sonic still has to work for it. Of course he matches blow for blow, but that doesn’t determine the fight.

      She's very much capable of fighting in the Omega Care Unit, as shown with Sonic fighting her.

      Sonic reacts to a surprise punch and dodges, quickly hits her with spin dash. Omega Rabs than uses Hax on Sonic. Nothing skill worthy to note.

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    • A Stoned Orc wrote: ...are we seriously debating that Sonic has better fighting skill than the Anti-Monitor, who continuously fought the Monitor for a million years, both of whom commonly wage wars both on a multiversal and abstract, conceptual level, both of whom are extraordinary geniuses, and both of whom have casually defeated the greatest fighters of the DC Universe?

      Fights for millions of years, nice stamina but doesn’t really say how they fought.

      Extraordinary geniuses. Well, shucks, if that’s all that took, Sonic besting Eggman all the time and being a superior fighter to Tails must be PIS.

      Casually defeated the greatest fighters of DC Universe. Isn’t that more of show of Anti-Monitor’s raw power than skill?

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    • Because Evil Sonic has all of Prime Sonic’s Speed, Strength, and Durability, Prime Sonic still has to work for it. Of course he matches blow for blow, but that doesn’t determine the fight

      And that would not matter if he was less skilled. If he was less skilled he'd lose any and every 1v1 encounter they had with no interference. And yet he doesn't instead it's a stalemate until either

      A. Outside forces

      B. Anti Sonic is ticked off.

      Repeatedly saying this isn't gonna make it change.

      Sonic reacts to a surprise punch and dodges, quickly hits her with spin dash. Omega Rabs than uses Hax on Sonic. Nothing skill worthy to note.

      Hax that Scourge would have to work around. Also if we're discounting hax, Mogul and Naugus would immediately be discounted, seeing as how energy blasts and hax is all they fight with. You're moving the goal post at this point.

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    • Hst master wrote: Sonic reacts to a surprise punch and dodges, quickly hits her with spin dash. Omega Rabs than uses Hax on Sonic. Nothing skill worthy to note.

      Hax that Scourge would have to work around. Also if we're discounting hax, Mogul and Naugus would immediately be discounted, seeing as how energy blasts and hax is all they fight with. You're moving the goal post at this point.

      Hax that Scourge would have to work around.

      Hold on. Explain this NLF.

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    • >NLF

      What? How in the world is Scourge having to deal with Rabs abilities in the Omega Care Unit NLF?

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    • With Haxes in general. The only time Evil Sonic dealt with Haxes was with Silver, after turning Super, after getting a power boost by the Master Emerald.

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    • Also another noted of Scourge’s lack of skill in a fight compare to Sonic’s was when Scourge was getting his ass handed to him by Metal Sonic before Prime Sonic came.

      Metal Sonic is suppose to match Sonic in speed and fighting ability.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: With Haxes in general. The only time Evil Sonic dealt with Haxes was with Silver, after turning Super, after getting a power boost by the Master Emerald.

      You literally just tried to discredit him ever dealing with Buns because of hax. Again moving the goal post and not even NLF right.

      And no metal is supposed to surpass Sonic in all attributes, including skill. In fact Sonic and Scourge were at such a disadvantage against Metal Sonic and Scourge that they had to bring in the Surpression Squad to fight for them. Yet again Goal post moving.

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    • Hst master wrote: You literally just tried to discredit him ever dealing with Buns because of hax. Again moving the goal post and not even NLF right.

      Then please, don’t rely on me getting the scans. Show me a time Scourge was able to figure out a solution to a hax. Or a fight he couldn’t win with brute force.

      And no metal is supposed to surpass Sonic in all attributes, including skill. In fact Sonic and Scourge were at such a disadvantage against Metal Sonic and Scourge that they had to bring in the Surpression Squad to fight for them.

      Sonic was the only one handling himself in that fight, while Scourge needed to be constantly saved by Sonic.

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    • 20191107 020605
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      And again you keep ignoring the context and not showing the whole page. Scourge didn't need to "keep being saved". Sonic was trying to act as a team and Scourge didn't. In the same scan you cropped Scourge even highlights he won't return the favor as they're getting their asses kicked.

      Then please, don’t rely on me getting the scans. Show me a time Scourge was able to figure out a solution to a hax. Or a fight he couldn’t win with brute force

      And Sonic has done this outside of Punching, Mcguffins or Fatehax Plot Armor how exactly? Not to mention not all fights won without brute force are skill feats. The Supression Squad and Team Sonic being called in to beat on the Metal Twins and Egg Beater and Sonic winning against Metal soley because his engines started turning him into slag on Stardust Speedway are prime examples.

      And also your scans tend to either contradict or have nothing to do with proving your argument.

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    • Omg. The scans didn’t contradict. Scourge was lying helplessly on the ground and Sonic noticed and had save him.

      You are no longer making sense. It doesn’t matter if the Suppression Squad was called in. It doesn’t matter the Freedom Fighters took care of the Egg Beater because it had too much AP for Sonic to handle.

      What matter is if Prime Sonic can fight better than Scourge.

      I’m going to bed. I have work in the morning.

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    • Funny cuz...

      Scourge was in trouble and Sonic helped.

      Sonic was in trouble and Scourge did jack.

      It's not that sonic was completely holding his own and Scourge was just getting bodied. Sonic was trying to work as team with Scourge and Scourge wasn't returning the favor, combined with the Metals already high superiority equals an ass kicking for both.

      And nice strawman, those don't have anything to do with Skill, they were examples of winning a fight without brute force.

      And he can't, they're even, Sonic simply has the better temperament.

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    • Please, just prove Scourge has comparable skill without fighting next to Sonic’s love ones. Please... i’m tired and you’ve given up on some of my arguements.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Please, just prove Scourge has comparable skill. Please... i’m tired and you’ve given up on some of my arguements.

      >Given up on Some of your arguments.

      When? Because I've adressed or quote nearly all of them.

      And I have shown proof in their very fights. Instead you choose to simply not count them and try to say sonic has more skill because he fought Mogul and Naugus despite still being more than a match skillwise when they've fought before and after those encounters.

      And dude if you have to go bed, go to bed. Don't just stay up to argue about fictional characters, it's still gonna be here.

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    • Ok, see ya later.

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    • @Hst master

      Ok, who was doing better in this fight?

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    • Again Temperance. Sonic blatantly makes AS pissed and mocks him so he screws up.

      Sonic simply has the better temperament.

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    • No, what about the first page, where there were no Temperance and Evil Sonic couldn’t land a hit while Sonic hit him with multiple.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: No, what about the first page, where there were no Temperance and Evil Sonic couldn’t land a hit while Sonic hit him with multiple.

      Temperance is just their temper. Sonic can maintain his, AS can't. And he's still mocking him, calling him bubba and a fool.

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    • I seriously doubt “Bubba” was all that was needed to make Evil Sonic loses his temper to the point where his skills would instantly go down a millisecond later.

      Especially since Scourge can deal with Sonic’s banter without losing a beat.

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    • Perhaps we should make a new thread about this. It seems a waste to be debating the difference between Sonic and Evil Sonic in stomp thread.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: I seriously doubt “Bubba” was all that was needed to make Evil Sonic loses his temper to the point where his skills would instantly go down a millisecond later.

      Especially since Scourge can deal with Sonic’s banter without losing a beat.

      The dude gets mad if someone so much as suggests something different from him. And Scourge has a confidence boost after

      - Stealing Fiona from Sonic

      - Kicking Sonic and Shadow's Asses at once and Locke

      - And taking over Moebius

      His arrogance went through the roof after he became Scourge.

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    • Huh? Confidence boost? At what point did Classic Scourge come off as “not confident”? He was having doubts about himself after the numerous times he lost to Sonic and after he was disrespected by Zonic. His confidence went further down after Prime Sonic said it would take one selfless act by Scourge to be him(Prime Sonic).

      His arrogance was strong back in the classic days, thinking he was hot stuff which played into being a henchman to the 2nd Robotnik. Twice.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: Huh? Confidence boost? At what point did Classic Scourge come off as “not confident”? He was having doubts about himself after the numerous times he lost to Sonic and after he was disrespected by Zonic. His confidence went further down after Prime Sonic said it would take one selfless act by Scourge to be him(Prime Sonic).

      His arrogance was strong back in the classic days, thinking he was hot stuff which played into being a henchman to the 2nd Robotnik. Twice.

      Please point out whenever I said he wasn't confident in the first place because I never did. I said he got a confidence boost by doing what I listed which let avoid getting all pissy as fast as he used to. And he was shaken up by what Sonic said, but it wasn't anything that truly had him doubting himself for anything but 1 second before he went back to his usual. Hell, even after he got stuck in Zone Jail, his passiveness didn't even last as soon as the destructix broke him out and he was right back to it.

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    • I accidentally deleted everything I just typed. Let me try to remember what I wrote in the morning.

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    • @Hst master do you want me to start a thread discussing the differences in fighting skill between the two or if there isn’t?

      We can briefly go over what we already talked about and continue the conversation.

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    • Bump

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    • Bump

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    • Sonic via hax

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    • Anti Monitor because of his destructive feats.

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    • Actually, this is a stomp since Anti-Monitor doesn’t reach Acausality 5 in 2-A, so he can’t resist Sonic’s FateHax.

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    • Sonic FRA

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    • If this is stomping I can switch to post-genesis super sonic

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    • The Diet Coke Archie Sonic

      But yeah, if Anti-Monitor doesn’t have any incap or isn’t Acausality type 5, Anti-Monitor gets stomped by the FateHax.

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    • Okay, post-genesis wave super sonic

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    • I haven't read scenes depicting Sonic getting to this level of destructive feats. Does anyone have any pages of him doing anything as impressive as AM in COIE? 

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    • Dreaming Serpent wrote: I haven't read scenes depicting Sonic getting to this level of destructive feats. Does anyone have any pages of him doing anything as impressive as AM in COIE? 

      19D2DA52-C87A-48EE-AFC8-5DE189A4F4F6
      EC4CFFFD-FD81-4127-BBAC-279AAD1B3175
      722E4A89-847E-42B6-8292-D7515D80AEFC
      B6EE3F92-BD49-46A0-AA60-667AC0BE06AB
      099E9497-4E4A-40BF-8CCE-FE07D0FA0ABF
      88D1FA06-8100-41AC-B686-065764F5246A

      And all of this is just covering range and how it happened. Not covering potency

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    • ElixirBlue
      ElixirBlue removed this reply because:
      😬
      01:12, November 19, 2019
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    • Bump

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    • So.... I know that this has nothing to do with the debate but: What exactly is Anti-Monitors True State Exactly Supposed to be???? Is it like his True Form like with Darkseid? Or is it like him when unbound by all Dimensions or something like that?????( I am just a person confused about her favorite DC Character that is all.....)

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    • ^ I would like to know too.

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    • I guess it’s kinda like darkseid

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    • It's exactly like Darkseid, or SCP-682, or any other profile with a higher/beyond-dimensional true form. They're unbound by...well, anything. Causality itself is fiction to them.

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    • In the 2-A key?

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    • I was answering M76's question about True State Anti-Monitor, which is his 1-A key.


      As concerns 2-A Anti-Monitor, however...
      The Anti-Monitor's ability to go unnoticed by others is something to speak of, and that Sonic has no known resistance to perception manipulation of that caliber. He also wields the Dimensional Superstructure, which "governs all things imaginable or unimaginable" (of which I imagine things like causality and fate could be attributed, as well as literally...anything else), and destroyed "concepts undreamt of, even by the Presence" during his battle with a heavily-amped Spectre at the Dawn of Creation. He fought his equal, the Monitor of the positive multiverse, for one million years straight before both were knocked into a coma. AM is more than prepared to play the long game and keep the fight going for eons, whereas Sonic's lifespan would eventually come to a natural end, outside of the realm of the fate hax given to Sonic that would elsewise prevent his death at AM's hands. 

      It would basically be an infinite tug of war between the Dimensional Superstructure/Antimatter Wave and the Super Genesis Wave until Sonic expired of natural causes. Add in AM's life-force absorption, which Sonic has no notable resistance to listed on his profile, and that natural death could be sped up a bit.

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    • Well, Sonic’s FateHax isn’t to prevent his death. That’s how we allow incaps to be a winning option for his opponents. If the incaps last over 24 hours per VBWF’s rules.

      Sonic’s FateHax ability, quite literally, is to win. Sonic can be beaten or incapacitated, but he always wins in the end.

      Edit: And we aren’t really sure it is Fate. It’s just that some Chaotic force in creation is insuring Sonic’s eventual victory.

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    • @Stoned Orc

      There's actually an in-progress CRT that will make Post-Gen resist life absorption. Just figured I should point that out, since I only stopped to change the Pre-Gen Sonic topic to Post-Gen Sonic lol

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    • Eh. LFA was just the cherry on top to my proposed AM wincons.

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    • @M765

      1-the true state of mobius is like that of darksaid but this is not continually active, you need your version within the multiverse to be killed or leave it completely.

      @ShakeResoundung

      2-well it must be very good since the absorption of life of the anti monitor goes from several tens of people maybe hundreds to 5 billion, three hundred ten thousand forty-five people

      https://imgur.com/a/8NBWInQ

      https://ibb.co/cJ6zBx9

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    • But does that show range more than potency?

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    • I believe we treat the potency of LFA the same as mindhax, where range = potency. On top of that, some of whom AM absorbed from in the first instance of his LFA during the Crisis have resistances to absorption, I believe.

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    • Then wouldn’t Sonic’s power be stronger than AM, as he used his Chaos Energy to collapse an infinite Multiverse at once.

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    • Mobius literally did the same.

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    • Which time? The first Crisis?

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    • Yes, the first wave of antimatter destroys everything in its path the reason why it did not initially destroy the multiverse was by the monitor and the plot is in its profile.

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    • Well, Sonic destroyed his infinite multiverse and nothing survived the effects. Not even 2-A beings, Concepts, infinite dream universes and 2-A Cosmic forces existing outside of Space and Time survived Sonic’s SGW.

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    • Because it was a recont

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    • So?

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      Well, Sonic destroyed his infinite multiverse and nothing survived the effects. Not even 2-A beings, Concepts, infinite dream universes and 2-A Cosmic forces existing outside of Space and Time survived Sonic’s SGW.

      AM by himself, without outside help, is capable of creating an antimatter wave with at least the same potency as the Super Genesis Wave. The Monitor, by his nature as a direct opposing force to the antimatter wave, was only able to fortify five universes against said antimatter wave in the instant before it wiped out the rest of the multiverse. The Monitor only did this by using the energies released by his physical death (whereupon he became a 1-A entity once more), and in doing so created a fortified "netherverse" located, presumably, in the Overvoid itself, as it was able to escape destruction entirely.

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    • Yeah. Despite those pics I don't see him doing something like the AM did. 

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    • A Stoned Orc wrote:

      ElixirBlue wrote:
      Well, Sonic destroyed his infinite multiverse and nothing survived the effects. Not even 2-A beings, Concepts, infinite dream universes and 2-A Cosmic forces existing outside of Space and Time survived Sonic’s SGW.

      AM by himself, without outside help, is capable of creating an antimatter wave with at least the same potency as the Super Genesis Wave. The Monitor, by his nature as a direct opposing force to the antimatter wave, was only able to fortify five universes against said antimatter wave in the instant before it wiped out the rest of the multiverse. The Monitor only did this by using the energies released by his physical death (whereupon he became a 1-A entity once more), and in doing so created a fortified "netherverse" located, presumably, in the Overvoid itself, as it was able to escape destruction entirely.

      But more or less describes how some universes survived, not the potency. Super Sonic was able to erase Gods who are far more powerful than Super Sonic with the SGW, as the SGW is(/was) only a part of the power of those gods who got erased.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:

      -snip-

      But more or less describes how some universes survived, not the potency. Super Sonic was able to erase Gods who are far more powerful than Super Sonic with the SGW, as the SGW is(/was) only a part of the power of those gods who got erased.

      That makes absolutely zero logical sense. "SGW is/was only a part of the power of the gods who got erased by the SGW."

      Then those gods were never superior to the SGW to begin with.

      As for the potency, the DC multiverse is composed of 52 "baseline" universes, which each have an infinite number of branching variations of themselves for every moment in infinite time. This also affected every enamation of a Godhead in those infinites.

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    • ^

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    • Sonic’s multiverse has an infinite amount of Baseline universes and with implied infinite branching timelines.

      And the SGW is Chaos Energy made by the seven Chaos Emeralds. But the 7 Chaos Emeralds don’t represent the Chaos Force, where these Gods resides. And they got erased.

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    • And yes, Sonic’s Multiverse is compromise of infinite Baseline Universes.

      7887F27B-09CA-4D02-8A18-8DC1A7ACF6AC
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    • Okay, so, I fucked up.

      https://dc.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse

      Pre-Crisis DC multiverse also has infinite baseline universes with infinite branching timelines. Alongside the Pre-Crisis multiverse is the Hypertime multiverse, which contains yet more additional branching timelines that occasionally merge back into the originals, seemingly at random. Crisis on Infinite Earths: The Compendium lists the Hypertime timelines alongside the infinite Earths of the Pre-Crisis as one overarching Multiverse, as well, and in fact, there have been found to be surviving parallels of destroyed universes therein in Pre-Crisis material relating to it. Consider also that every Pre-Crisis DC universe has numerous alternate dimensions and microverses (both of which are themselves infinite spaces, in many cases) exclusive to their universe (as in not multiversal singularities shared between the infinite universes) on top of the infinite timelines also associated to each.

      This was the multiverse destroyed by the Anti-Monitor, including Hypertime, sparing only five universes due to his equal and polar opposite's death-energies protecting them.

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    • Sorry, i’m waiting for someone to explain Archie’s cosmology.

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    • Same

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    • I might as well post this image here, stating that the Precioustone supports the existence of extra-Dimensional worlds from various dimensions, including Sonic’s, which contains an infinite baseline multiverse.

      So each person in the infinite multiverse and infinite branching timelines has an existing dream world supported by the Precioustone, which is the Nexus of all those dreams. Excluding for a moment that it contains the existence of dream worlds from people of other dimensions than Sonic’s multiverse.

      Which Sonic also erased.

      280FB681-C5E2-4A12-BA0A-FEED2619E394
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    • So each person in the infinite multiverse and infinite branching timelines has an existing dream world supported by the Precioustone, which is the Nexus of all those dreams. Excluding for a moment that it contains the existence of dream worlds from people of other dimensions than Sonic’s multiverse.

      280FB681-C5E2-4A12-BA0A-FEED2619E394

      That's lot of assumption. I don't see any line of dialogue that suggests Sonic could erase these timelines. Neither have the previous posts clarified that to me. I must be blind. ( Puts on glasses) Thank you for posting a page though so we see how the Cosmology works. Greatly appreciated.

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    • It's in the profile stating that Maginary World was erased, you could just read It

      Anyways 14 emeralds were enough to destroy a infinite multiverse, each emerald is made of thousands of other emeralds thanks to the Great Harmony, as explained in the emeralds page

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    • I mean there's this but AM does stuff like this casually in COIE from the beginning.

      1894691-crisis 10 23

      Is there any indication that Sonic can do this as easily too? Now I'm invested.

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    • I’ve been wondering for a bit now. “Positive matter multiverse”? “Anti-Matter Multiverse”? It sounds like two halves of a multiverse.

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    • just in case mobius is = alpheus, who created the hypertime that is basically this

      https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/kal-el52/blog/the-dc-cosmology-explained/133109/

      and I think this could be a sonic stomp can not go through immortality 1A and sooner or later it will be erased by the anti matter of the anti monitor

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    • Huh, so Archie Sonic’s Chaos Control is more powerful. I wasn’t sure but I am now.

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    • Yes, there was a positive matter multiverse and an antimatter multiverse. Both are infinite in scope, however the latter is devoid of all life, and only exists as a source of energy for AM. This fact in and of itself does not imply, by any means, that AM's feat is less than Sonic's.


      So we have AM, who is powered by an infinite antimatter multiverse, who destroyed two infinite multiverses (the standard multiverse and Hypertime) each containing an infinite number of infinite spacetimes with infinite branching timelines.

      Sonic destroyed one infinite multiverse with the aforementioned infinite spacetimes and branching timelines.

      Explain to me how Chaos Control is more powerful than AM's antimatter wave.

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    • Because Archie Sonic could’ve used Chaos Control on Megaman’s infinite Multiverse at the same time.

      The Super Genesis Wave targeted two infinite multiverse. We know Sonic’s infinite multiverse has (implied) infinite timelines with dream worlds having existence for each person within the infinite Multiverse (and from other dimensions).

      That is Sonic’s and I doubt Megaman has the dream worlds existing within his multiverse but it should plausibly have the same structure as Sonic’s.

      The Super Genesis Wave is never implied to be more powerful than Super Sonic’s use of Chaos Control, since they both use the same Seven Emeralds. The SGW targeted and was about to rewrite two infinite multiverses before Sonic and Megaman stopped the doctors.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote:
      Because Archie Sonic could’ve used Chaos Control on Megaman’s infinite Multiverse at the same time.

      The Super Genesis Wave targeted two infinite multiverse. We know Sonic’s infinite multiverse has (implied) infinite timelines with dream worlds having existence for each person within the infinite Multiverse (and from other dimensions).

      That is Sonic’s and I doubt Megaman has the dream worlds existing within his multiverse but it should plausibly have the same structure as Sonic’s.

      The Super Genesis Wave is never implied to be more powerful than Super Sonic’s use of Chaos Control, since they both use the same Seven Emeralds. The SGW targeted and was about to rewrite two infinite multiverses before Sonic and Megaman stopped the doctors.

      So...here's my thing.


      Wouldn't rewriting the multiverse rewrite Maginaryworld by default? It's composed of all the dreams of the multiverse--but those dreams would naturally be influenced and changed by the changes to reality. Wouldn't the Maginaryworld be a nonfeat, especially since the comic appears to give no special notice of it during the events of SGW and the aftermath?

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    • Well, SGW didn’t rewrite Maginaryworld, it erased it. But not all the people who submitted dreams into the Maginaryworld were erased, like Sonic, Shadow, Amy, Sally, Eggman, etc.

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    • The Maginaryworld would be a feat, considering it was erased while the cast were rewritten. The Maginaryworld and it’s universes still exist even while the dreamers are awake and not dreaming. Theoretically, the universes would still exist even after the dreamer died of natural causes.

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    • Now that I think the megaman multiverse shouldn't scale to the sonic unless I have a statement?

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    • Me personally, I just wouldn’t claim Archie Megaman’s multiverse contains something like the Precioustone, a stone containing the dream worlds of everyone in an infinite multiverse.

      But it is stated Sonic’s multiverse and Megaman’s multiverse are parallel to each other.

      881634B1-500F-4FAE-B546-45F89B54C8D4
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    • In my, defense I am not Nigh omniscient as antvasima :v

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    • They are parallel universes, yes, but just take a look at the globes shown in that image. One Earth looks like the real-life Earth, while the other Earth looks like it's still only halfway done splitting the Pangean supercontinent.

      Differences between the Earths are likely indicators of differences in universal/multiversal structure.

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    • I don’t what you mean by them having different structure. Their Universes are parallel to each other. Why would the shape of- no, the continents of earth have to do with universal/multiversal structure?

      Eggman could tell they were from Parallel universes when he heard Wily call his planet Earth. Planet Mobius is future Earth but not Wily’s future earth, which is how Eggman recognized the name from knowing his history.

      0CB13B9D-EFE2-48AC-814C-DFC8B87331B5
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    • Well, if this can be added, by all means.

      Archie Sonic FRA

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    • 1+ for sonic

      0+ for mobius

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    • Archie Sonic FRA

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    • 2+ for sonic

      0+ for mobius

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    • I'm still voting for Anti Monitor. Confusing that his name is the same as Sonic's planet.

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    • 2+ for sonic

      1+ for Anti monitor

      that is that the COEI live action will end with AM creating the world of sonic :v

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    • Or his corpse is the planet

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    • That would be pretty cool. 

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    • can be

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    • Honestly, and this is head canon/fan fiction territory, that would explain how the planet would survive the constant Low 2-C scaling.

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    • yeah

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    • It can be similar to Transformers Prime where the essence of Unicron lies within the center of Earth. https://youtu.be/LmoB9S4MYIg

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    • I think people are staying away because of the FateHax.

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    • Sonic's FateHax is still irrelevant, when AM can just stalemate it and draw it out until Sonic dies of old age, which judging by their completely comparable AP and similar hax is still 100% viable, and the most likely outcome, seeing as AM fought the Monitor, his equal, for a million years, and the battle only ended when both were knocked into a coma simultaneously. Voting for AM.

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    • Actually, hold up.

      Anti-Life Equation.

      How good is Sonic's mind manip resistance? Because ALE literally shits on Tier 2 mind manip resistance. Spectre, Martian Manhunter, Hal Jordan, Superman--the greatest walls in the DCU against universal-multiversal tier mindhax meant jackshit against the ALE. The Spectre was able to resist it longer than anyone else, and he's the literal Hand of God, yet he was still overcome.

      Literally no one has ever no-sold the ALE's mindhax canonically, and DC is full of insane mindhax resistance feats.

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    • A Stoned Orc wrote: Sonic's FateHax is still irrelevant, when AM can just stalemate it and draw it out until Sonic dies of old age, which judging by their completely comparable AP and similar hax is still 100% viable, and the most likely outcome, seeing as AM fought the Monitor, his equal, for a million years, and the battle only ended when both were knocked into a coma simultaneously. Voting for AM.

      It’s not irrelevant if AM is set out to kill Sonic. The FateHax’s ability is: Sonic must always Win. It’s that level of broken and is the second most powerful Fate Manipulation on the website.

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    • ElixirBlue wrote: The FateHax’s ability is: Sonic must always Win. It’s that level of broken and is the second most powerful Fate Manipulation on the website.

      While it is good fatehax, I doubt it's the second strongest on the wiki, also, even if it was, the match was changed to have Post Genesis Wave Super Sonic, who lacks it

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    • Oh shoot, that’s right. I spent so much time earlier talking about pre-Genesis on this thread that I forgot.

      I’m actually trying to find the one who has the most powerful fate manipulation on the wiki right now. I’m forgetting who she was.

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    • If FateHax isn't at play, then yeah, I do not see Sonic winning. ALE kind of fucks his entire world and makes him an extension of AM's will.

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    • Eh, what Sonic has going for him is the greater multiverse destruction capability, but I don’t think much else for Diet Archie Sonic.

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    • Anti-Life Monitor FRA

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    • 2+ for sonic

      2+ for Anti monitor

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    • Bump monitor

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    • Anti-Monitor FRA

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    • 2+ for sonic

      3+ for Anti monitor

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    • ALE fucks sonic over, yeah?

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    • ALE?

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    • Anti-Life Equation. Ultra super mega mindhax.

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    • if that shit is 5D given by a 1A entity.

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    • ... Why was this changed to post?

      Aren’t mind Hax stomps without a workable wincon?

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    • I mean antimatter can shoot sonic and mobius doesn't resist the law hax that is in regular sonic attacks.

      the only problem is that this is based on energetic attacks so it stagnates (I don't want to say which one is more powerful than which).

      the ALE is not its first movement but like 4-5 (it starts with antimatter wave mostly, but with transmutation, then CQC and then if that doesn't work it goes through the ALE).

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    • ALE is absolutely a possible starting choice for Anti-Monitor, since he has it. Why fight when you can completely enslave someone to be an extension of your will?

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    • Anti-Monitor FRA

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      2+ for sonic

      4+ for Anti monitor

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    • animatter fra

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      2+ for sonic

      5+ for Anti monitor

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    • Bump fan web image 1200x630
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    • Randomperosn
      Randomperosn removed this reply because:
      a
      21:02, January 8, 2020
      This reply has been removed
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    • You should put this battle on this thread to get attention. 

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    • Ok

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    • Wow, people really don’t care about Post Genesis Wave Sonic.

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    • I said something I don't know :v

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    • Yeah I don't think Sonic's hax are going to save him here.

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    • is voting for AM?

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    • This isn’t a stomp since Diet Archie Sonic can totally beat- Er, end Anti. But...

      Oliver de jesus wrote: I mean antimatter can shoot sonic and mobius doesn't resist the law hax that is in regular sonic attacks.

      the only problem is that this is based on energetic attacks so it stagnates (I don't want to say which one is more powerful than which).

      the ALE is not its first movement but like 4-5 (it starts with antimatter wave mostly, but with transmutation, then CQC and then if that doesn't work it goes through the ALE).

      But I’ve been stubborn to not change my vote. Post Sonic will take longer to get to Chaos Control than Anti-Monitor to his ALE.

      Anti Monitor FRA

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    • I agree, it's certainly not a stomp. If this match was run like a 100 times I could see several scenarios of Sonic getting the upper hand but I feel like you'd have to really amp up Sonic to get to this position. Whereas AM, even casually is stronger then I'd say 95% of DC's strongest characters. So AM would win more matches and my vote is still going to AM.

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    • Anti Monitor FRA

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    • AM have 7 vote

      grace starts, missing 17 hours

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    • AM via better destructive feats

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    • grace is over I'm going to request that this be added.

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    • TheCosmicDreamer wrote: AM via better destructive feats

      Wrong but AM won this match

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    • @elixir Do you know who can add this in the sonic profile?.I already asked someone to do it for mobius profile but I don't know who to call

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    • You could ask user:Elizhaa

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    • A FANDOM user
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