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  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    20:59, January 24, 2020

    Okay, so far, we know that currently there are more than 7 profiles that are currently rated as Unknown (For example, Sulley, Mike, Woody, Buzz, Mulan and Mushu, Jack Sparrow and Tarzan, aka, the Seven Guardians of Scaling) because they can't scale to Sora and company, therefore, so they get "actual" tiers, discussion is needed on the tier the most basic Heartless that has been in every single game but DDD, that's right, the Shadow. Recently Imaginym (Thanks you) has made quite a lot of calculations regarding the fodder, and 9-B appears to be the most consistent value.

    Heartless

    Here's the current draft profile (Demon Tide is fine as it is, as it was before an actual profile with no issues.

    KHIII Shadow
    Also, yes, the current reasoning for 4-C has been dismissed as just hax, so input regarding where to start their feats is very appreciated.

    I still have some in my mind however:

    - As we can see in CoM, a single heart can make entire "worlds" from its sheer memories.

    If this is right, a single "heart" is tier 4, which a single Shadow can easily threaten meaning that they could actually be tier 4 by themselves.

    However, as they still harm it via hax... yeah, it's not applicable, at least for physical stats.

    There's also the option of them being able to scale to Aqua while being in the Realm of Darkness, as she has to put some effort to fight them, and no restraining is involded, so the base form can still be High 4-C and MFTL+ (Possibly infinite due to lack of time axis to begin with, but that's for another CRT) while in it, however, outside of it, they are seen by fodder by all the main cast (the ones at High 4-C).

    However, scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" for the ones currently at Unknown (not the fodder) may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level (Anyone with a Keyblade), even if it sounds absurd per all the current standards on the verse, while the fodder itself is 9-B as said before.

    Them (Sora and company) being restrained in power is never brought up, they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding/weird by that world's standards (even if they use magic and technology anyways, as we can see very notably on San Franstokyo with Sora using Blizzaga, Flowmotion and even formchanges in a cutscene, let alone that moment where they talk about each world having their own laws and directly saying that they come from another world right behind Jack Sparrow's back, who was clearly listening), you don't see them bursting stars each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed either, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch (Aka, simply scaling like the way it's proposed above).

    In a nutshell, my proposal is for KH fodder to be rated as 9-B thanks to the calcs, any Heartless in the Realm of Darkness is At least High 4-C and all the Disney characters with an "Unknown" rating get updated to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" via scaling to the Heartless fodder and Keyblade users.

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    • I agree with this, although I'm not very knowledgeable in KH, so I may have misunderstood something.

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    • bump

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    • bump

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    • BTW, I would put Dream Eaters on the OP, but they all are High 4-C via upscaling to Komory Bat

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    • I've never played KH before but I want wanked Woody back. Does this mean he could potentially be High 4-C again?

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    • Likely not, at least per the current standards on the profiles, as if we removed that standard, everyone would be High 4-C, which is unhealthy.

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    • From High 4-C to baseline 9-B? That’s sad, I’m sad :( ☟︎□︎⬥︎ ♓︎⬧︎ ⧫︎♒︎♏︎ ♋︎◻︎ ◆︎◻︎♑︎❒︎♋︎♎︎♏︎ ♐︎□︎❒︎ ♋︎⧫︎□︎❍︎ ♑︎□︎♓︎■︎♑︎✍︎ ♓︎⬧︎ ♓︎⧫︎ ♑︎□︎♓︎■︎♑︎ ⧫︎□︎ ♑︎□︎ ⧫︎♒︎❒︎□︎◆︎♑︎♒︎✍︎

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    • ☠︎□︎   ♓︎♎︎♏︎♋︎. ✋︎'●︎●︎   ♍︎♒︎♏︎♍︎&︎   ⧫︎♒︎□︎◆︎♑︎♒︎

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    • Here's the calc. It seems to be ok but I don't know if it's going to get much more attention.

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    • But hey, at least we can have Atom vs Woody.

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    • Scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level, even if it sounds absurd, at least on my part.

      Them being restrained in power is never brought up, as they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding, you don't see them bursting start each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch.

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    • High 4-C Woody might be back if understand correctly.

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    • Bump.

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    • We don't consider Darksides fodder, correct?

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    • We don't, even if it's the weakest Heartless that's not fodder.

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    • Then I'm not sure there's much like world destroying we can scale the fodder to. Would have to research it more, I guess.

      I might guess that it might end up like Mario & Goombas & such, where the main characters are MUCH higher-tiered than the fodder.

      Bosses like Storm Rider (Survived the KE of being picked up & thrown by Sora, IIRC.) & Groundshaker (Massive size, thus, huge KE.) also can't scale to fodder due to being bosses, right? Also, I'm unsure if Heartless even should have KE, since they're MADE of darkness & non-corporeal.

      Yet a cutscene in KH2 has Sora pinned by a pile of Shadows atop him, so MAYBE they have mass?

      As far as actual fodder enemies, Bolt Towers are notably big. The Battleship Heartless is apparently "Heartless that fused together with a pirate ship."

      But if we can't use KE anyway, we may want to look to magic & animations.

      Blue Rhapshody Heartless use Magic to attack with ice like other Heartless use elements, so maybe a freezing feat on the basis of that? A Silver Rock makes an explosion when reappearing & can also just explode. Emerald Blues, Spring Metal & Malachite Bolero Heartless make tornados & such.

      Crimson Jazz also make explosions, but with mines. There's also Minute Bombs, who can harm other Heartless (Quite a lot, in fact.) with their explosions, so there might be some scaling there.

      Storm Bombs make a Whirlwind to pull in Roxas before exploding. The Skater Bomb's explosion freezes everything around it.

      Driller Mole Heartless sort of have an AP feat for their drills, since they can burrow underground.

      The journal says, in part, about Gargoyle Knights and Warriors: "looks like an ordinary statue". If they ARE actual statues we could use their mass. Possessors also possess these kinds of Heartless, but I'm not sure about the actual ordinary statues in Beast's Castle.

      KH Chi's Bag o' Coal might have a notable mass, but probably not.

      Water Cores can survive having their Water Shield evaporated by Fire Magic... but said Magic almost certainly comes from Aqua or Sora unless Fire Cores can do the job. Outlier?

      Earth Cores MIGHT have a burrowing feat? Frost Serpents also do.

      Gold Beat Heartless have, in their journal entry: "Their rapid-fire thunderstorm will electrify you if it connects, so watch for the tell and don't get too close." ....But I don't recall much actual Thunderstorms from them, & it'd be way above any of the other feats here.

      The Rock Troll & Metal Troll are bosses, right?

      But yeah. There you go, I skimmed the Heartless section on the Wiki, & tried to remember what little I could. Sadly, there aren't that many super impressive feats.

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    • Shoot.

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    • Keep in mind, it's far from comprehensive. I didn't go over EVERY Heartless, just ones I assumed would have readily tiered feats, & I mostly went by the Wiki's text.

      There may be animations, & maybe other enemy Heartless, Nobodies or Unversed or such have good feats.

      It may also be possible to get them a bit higher if scaling to certain bosses. Not saying Organization XIII or the like, but still.

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    • We could start with Hot Rod as a low end, a car crash is easily 9-B.

      As for th rest, likely the explosive ones could reach a noticeable result, but calculations are needed for those.

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    • It's possible there's other Heartless, especially among those I listed.

      Also, aren't Heartless canonically made of Darkness, which is massless? KE shouldn't be applicable for something with no mass.

      And even if it is applicable for KE, aren't the Hot Rod & Mad Ride not much bigger than Sora? That's very small for an automobile.

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    • Darkness seems to have mass considering how it's treated.

      As for the size, yeah, they aren't much larger than Sora.

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    • They’re actually extremely dense so they crash with High 6-C energy in spite of their small size ovo

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    • Yeah, it's a bit strange, & I'd question our assumption of intangibility for things with mass. Unfortunately, even if it is a variety of darkness with mass, we still need to find density for KE.

      Perhaps the most frustrating part of trying to tier Heartless fodder is the journal. Unlike with major characters or even some bosses, it is often very... mechanical with the entries, more providing tactical info & other stuff useful for playing better against enemies in such entries.

      Thinking on it, one option might be to look into the Gummi Heartless and Nobodies; They have huge vehicles & some individual ones are big. Can we scale to them? 'course, they often appear in groups, so some may be just weak.

      Not to mention, anything involving pixel scaling for the Gummi Missions will be... difficult. It doesn't help that they often lack typical features of space.

      That said, I think we can probably determine the size of a Gummi Ship, or maybe a part of it, & if we can use that, it might go some ways.

      One notable... well, technology feat for Nobodies is a structure of theirs exploding, after Sora's ship has attacked the core a bunch.

      At 3:33, in the mission Assault of the Dreadnaught: https://youtu.be/8IdUcgfQNQY?t=213

      Sadly, it happens at the end of the mission, & I'd think the implication is that none of the enemies survived the explosion.



      Still, looking into their vehicles, the size of their explosions, & the size of the individual Gummi Heartless & Nobodies such, we might be able to find something marginally more impressive than is typical.

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    • I can agree.

      However, I don't think Gummi Heartless can scale to "normal" Heartless, as the former is far bigger and uses seemingly noticeably more powerful moves overall.

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    • Yeah, I think I get how you feel. Gummi Heartless & Nobody are probably different from the regular variety. Heartless & arguably Nobodies may be varied in appearance, but I can hardly remember any "regular" Heartless -not even an actual Shadow- appearing in the missions, & there's the matter of their size & probably differing statistics.

      So, unless we wanna dig into more feats for Heartless/Nobodies/Bugs/Unversed in the journal or animations, the highest feats to start with SO FAR are....

      ....It's probably the Skater Bombs or other kind of Bombs, isn't it? The Skater & Storm Bombs will be especially "fun" to get footage of, because, besides exploding often being a desperation/suicide move, Skater/Storm Bombs are from 358/2 Days. Might be easier to try calcing the other kinds of Bombs first, since they might be easier to find footage of....

      I'm a bit sleepy to feat hunt, though, much less try to calculate anything, & I haven't really done explosion calcs before, besides that.

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    • I'm sure the bomb Heartless are also in KHII.

      Oh well, at least now we have something to really start with.

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    • Yeah. Skater & Storm Bombs are notable because they freeze stuff or make hurricanes when exploding. The latter has a vaccuum effect.

      But yeah, there's several kinds of Heartless that explode, & not all in the same way.

      In the event that we need to request for feats to be calculated, what priority would this be, given most enemies don't have profiles, & may not end up having them?

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    • What are the summarised conclusions here?

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    • @Imaginym: It would fall between priority 2 and 3.

      The fodder will eventually get their own profiles, they just need something reliable to scale to in the first place.

      And the hurricane one is noteworthy too, freezing usually doesn't lead to high results, but it can be kept in mind.

      @Ant

      Basically, we are agreeing on getting some calcs done, however, some scans are pending so the calculations can be made.

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    • Freezing a human's 9-A

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    • Okay.

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    • WOULD freezing Roxas be relevant? He's a Nobody, so while, IIRC, he has a body, but no Heart for most of his first year, isn't it the case that Nobodies "don't exist"?

      Are the results of freezing a human body still 9-A if the human body is the body of someone who doesn't exist, & therefore, the body itself probably isn't there to freeze either?

      I'm also curious about freezing Xion. Not necessarily because she's a Nobody, but because being made by Vexen & the visuals of her death scene suggest she was made from ice (magic).

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    • If there is no body to freeze, then what is happening there?

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    • That's what I'd like to know; The story says that Nobodies don't (truly) exist & such, doesn't it?

      1.  Kingdom Hearts IIYen Sid: "A spirit that goes on even as its body fades from existence---for you see, Nobodies do not truly exist at all."

      ....But they should be physical, given that a Nobody is created when a Heart falls to Darkness, especially from a Heartless; The Nobody is formed from the actual person's body that tends to be left behind.

      It could probably just be a fancy way of saying they're not real people, despite acting like people, as Nobodies typically don't have Hearts, which any person/Somebody has.

      In any case, whether or not Nobodies exist isn't essential for a revision about KH fodder tiering to deal with right away, even if there may be fodder Nobodies involved.

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    • Well, Heartless already have NPI, so them hitting Roxas who technically indeed has a body can be used as a feat for him being frozen, however, in his case it seems more like just being covered in ice, rather than actually frozen.

      Xion vanishing like that wasn't from ice, but rather of her simply vanishing from existence.

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    • It was a joke anyway

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    • Except that she looked very much like ice & was a replica (an artificial body) made by Vexen, an Ice Manipulator? She grew a Heart some time after being created, but that she got a Heart shouldn't change that she was, physically, not entirely human.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anqS-YA3v-g
      XionIce

      I don't disagree that she ceased to be there, aside from maybe her Heart going to Sora (the details are fuzzy.); I'm concerned with what she's made of, not how she disappeared.

      (Lol, sorry if I bothered you, Soupywolf5. 'course, freezing an actual human, being a 9-A feat, would actually be good for the fodder.)

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    • In any case, I found footage of the explosions for Skater & Storm Bombs. Should occur around the timestamped times: https://youtu.be/cx61sJfnSls?t=417 Skater Bomb explodes then & a couple of other times.

      https://youtu.be/I2W5p4_VD6Q?t=582 I was mistaken about Storm Bombs. They make a vortex, not a hurricane. Hopefully it's not so for other wind-using Heartless. Also, their explosion seems to be fiery rather than windy. My bad.

      Not the most impressive, but maybe the other games will be more impressive.

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    • A calc of Storm Bomb seems to be the best one to make a calc for.

      And they don't appear in other games.

      This may be useful

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    • Hoping Woody gets a 9-B rating so I can have hax woody vs hax Chucky

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    • While looking at another revision, I saw something that prompted me to check on Tank Topplers. https://youtu.be/ryeCCaqymN8?t=145 Not easy to find footage of them, but at about 2:25, you can see one in the back create a sizeable explosion. So that's nice for Unversed.

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    • Oh boy, that explosion can definitely be used to scale fodder, a calc will have to be done, however, can you please request it at the Calculation Requests Thread?

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    • A Crimson Jazz makes a big explosion using 3 mines: https://youtu.be/DslCBR4buaE?t=49

      Looked up a couple of other Heartless. Looked up Spring Metal, but all I could find was a video of a a boss hack that used moveset hacks. It seems to feature Spring Metals, & they seem to be able to make impressively big tornados, like at 2:11 https://youtu.be/GBuf3gpkapA?t=131 If that's how they are in the game normally, that might be a nice feat. Maybe close to 9-A?

      Unfortunately, I think we'd need footage of their feat that's more certain to not be of a hack.

      I think I've seen Spring Metals in other videos, but the camera is almost never at a good view to see all of the winds they make.

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    • The 9-A thing is legit (I've seen them in the game, they do actually do those at such size), however, it may need a calc.

      And the Crimson Jass explosives can also be used for scaling.

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    • He may not be High 4-C.

      But Tier 9 woody being able to fight Arthur Morgan would be funny

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      The 9-A thing is legit (I've seen them in the game, they do actually do those at such size), however, it may need a calc.

      And the Crimson Jass explosives can also be used for scaling.

      It may help if you can get videos of their large tornados. That said, I'm uncertain how likely it'll get past Wall Level. Check out this calc for comparison: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Tweester_(Mario) The high end got 1,654,720 joules, & Wall Level goes up to 20,920,000 joules. So those tornados need a yield around 12.64 times or more greater than that Tweester that's like, 12.23 meters high.

      Not that Spring Metals don't make big winds, which helps. But we'll probably need good footage of them & a good yield on their feats.

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    • It definitely isn't bigger than that, so just 9-B would be fine.

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    • I'm unsure if it isn't bigger. Might be worthwhile to attempt pixel scaling to Sora. Plus, its bottom might be wider. Looks less conical.

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    • I agree with that.

      So far, now we have some explosions and a tornado to calc.

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    • Yeah. Sadly, may still need to find footage of Minute Bombs. Unless my memory is wrong, which it could be; Point is, Heartless lack durability feats, but there is the possibility of them surviving other bomb Heartless exploding.

      Unless folks can think of another way to get durability for them. (In theory, they should be able to survive exerting the amount of energy they can, so having AP, or especially SS significantly higher than Durability is weird for our Wiki.)

      In any case, unless someone else wants to make the request, or calc it themselves, I might try to request the calcs later after some sleep. I'm not sure how to explosion calc, for one.

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    • Well, they can just scale to their own AP.

      Anyways, please ask for some calcs when you manage to compile the scans of the feats themselves when you get the time.

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    • I don’t think I’ve ever actually seen any profile with SS higher then their durability

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    • Yeah, "glass cannons" kinda don't work with our Wiki. They're possible, but.... Most characters shouldn't have SS much higher than Durability, because most should be able to throw a punch without breaking their arm and such. 'course, when it's AP, which can be via things unrelated to physical strength like superpowers, then "glass cannons" are more possible.

      Although it does bring up the concern that some of the explosion feats brought up here also seem to be suicide attacks.

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    • The Heartless' explosions actually come back after exploding, can't say the same for the Unversed, however.

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    • Not sure Explosions and Tornadoes fall under anything but AP, as it isn't really Striking Strength, but ability based.

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    • I mean, they are in teh epicenter, if they couldn't take it, the move would just kill them on the first attemp.

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    • True, but that wouldn't scale to SS, it would scale to durability.

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    • I mean, Donald has High 4-C Striking Strength.

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    • For what reason?

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    • Probably because he can do a very small amount of physical damage with his staff.

      Anyways, as the tornado is made by a physical move respectively, it scaling to Durability isn't that much of an stretch.

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    • I guess that is understandable..?

      Durability, yes, SS no.

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    • So, their AP with magic shouldn't be applied to SS, despite they can surive producing the energy (presumably, & via magic) to perform those feats? And possibly despite that other fodders can survive those attacks, as with Heartless & such that damage others?

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    • Durability can scale to SS, but SS doesn't scale to Durability unless they physically harm someone comparable to them.

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    • Newton's third law indicates that if, say, you were to punch something with 22KJ of force, you would need to be able to tank 22KJ of force too, otherwise you would break your arm.

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    • Where did you get 22 Kilojoules from? ovo

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    • So we'd need non-boss fodder physically damaging one another, especially without a Reaction Command, since RCs tend to be the product of Keyblade Wielders' actions, & "fodder" surviving that is probably outlierish?

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    • They are fodder it's like a Goomba not going with one hit from Mario, so that's not really usable to begin with.

      Anyways, yeah, SS nearly always scales to Durability because of how it works.

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    • It is the reverse, not what you just said. As surviving something doesn't mean you can output that much damage.

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    • Oops, just rethinked, yeah, it's the other way around, sorry for the miswording.

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    • Bump.

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    • Wait, so if we have possibly High 4-C for the fodder, then do we have all the old woody and buzz matches back

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    • I don’t think he’s going to be scaling to the same AP if he does become High 4-C again?

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    • We would get back the Thanos VS Kingdom hearts buzz match again. Since buzz hilariously oneshots Tier 7 dura ass thanos 

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    • I think that was actually called a stomp (You mean Buzz vs. Complete Gauntlet Thanos, right?) as the rules for what defined a stomp had changed at the time, although if we do get it back then we’ll have a reminder of just how terrible they are for High 4-Cs (So perfection)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      I don’t think he’s going to be scaling to the same AP if he does become High 4-C again?

      He would, actually.

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    • Oh sweet

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    • Bump.

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    • I've already put my input in the Discord GC awhile back, no Heartless scale to High 4-C. The absolute best I'm fine with them being is being High 4-C to 4-A with hax only due to them being able to absorb hearts, which contain many stars , and they're confirmed to beanother dimension .

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    • Bump.

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    • Did anyone request the calcs yet? Apologies to say I've been negligent in not requesting it myself. Also, I think it would be good to find some footage of maybe Heartless or Nobodies that aren't unique & made of rock or steel or other materials we can get a density for. KE feats are a thing, too.

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    • It seems it hasn't been the case yet.

      Mmm... okay, I sure remember there were quite some noteworthy feats around, what are the most notable ones, once again? I kinda forgot, sorry.

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    • I think if you want feats calculated, good material would be explosions, making hurricanes/twisters/tornados, freezing, & KE if you can be certain of the material compositions: Ex: A rock monster moving fast. Water has mass, too, so Water Manipulation can be calc'd, & so can Sand/Earth Manipulation.

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    • Bump

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    • Mmm... there's too much stuff to ask calcs for, where should we start? As obviously I can't just request everything at once.

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    • Well, let's see what already existing blogs -even if they aren't for KH characters- can tell us!

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#Freezing_a_Human

      Average human weight = 62kg

      On average 65% of the human body weight is water.

      So water mass = 0.65*62kg.

      So total energy = 62 * 3500 * 38 + 0.65*62*1000*333.55 =21,688,065 Joules, Small Building level

      So if we find a feat of a fodder freezing something like a human or humanoid, it's probably close to that.

      Skater Bombs can freeze the Nobody player characters at least partially -How much might vary by character- and do use that same kind of magic for damaging, and may also damage other enemies with it.

      So, assuming we don't treat the freezing feat as an outlier for freezing the player characters -despite that the feat is ice creation, not damaging the player characters- then

      ...we can scale a portion of that to Skater Bombs, and if any enemies survive that, scale durability similarly!

      2.16262977

      For KE, it's uncertain if Heartless have mass, but let's suppose we find one we're sure it does. I think KH3 has some rock-golem like enemies that are humanoid.

      I don't know the exact sizes of them or Sora, so let's do an example.

      The "normal" body surface area is generally taken to be 1.7 m2 but, in actual fact, the body surface area depends on more than just height and weight. Other influential factors include the age and gender of the individual. For example: Average body surface area for adult men: 1.9 m2.

      Let's look at finding the volume of a human, since we need volume and density to get mass, and mass & speed to get Kinetic Energy. https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-volume-of-average-human Using our above "generic mass", that's 62 kg / 985 kg/m^3

      That gets us our volume. About 62.94 liters, or rather 62,944 cm^3 (cubic centimeters; Both it & liters are measurements of volume.)

      My favorite explanation of Square Cube Law is from TV Tropes .

      "When an object undergoes a proportional increase in size, its new volume is proportional to the cube of the multiplier and its new surface area is proportional to the square of the multiplier."

      "And Newton's famous Second Law (the "force = mass × acceleration" one) means that if you double a critter's height while keeping it the same shape, you end up with four times the muscle power moving eight times the mass"

      So doubled size means take the square of 2 (To square is to multiply a number by itself. 2x2), & the surface area is multiplied by that, & to cube a number is to multiply a number times itself and times itself once more (In this case, 2x2x2.)... and if the shape stays the same, that's what the volume AND the mass become!

      So pretending we have a rock monster bigger than a man (Say, twice the height, at 3.4 meters), we check how many times bigger (2 times) it is than the smaller thing of similar shape.

      The human's mass being multipled won't be relevant since it's a ROCK monster, of course, but....

      Thus, we take the above volume of a human of 62,944 cm^3, & multiply it by 8, we get 503,552 cm^3 (cubic centimeters). Let's hypothetically say it has the density of granite , which is 2,650 to 2,750 kg/m^3. On average, 2,700 kg/m^3.

      Mass = Volume * Density.

      503,552 cm^3 is a measurement of volume, & 2,700 kg/m^3, so multiply them together! (Although, 1 m^3 (a cubic meter) is 1 million cubic centimeters (cm^3), so do note that.)

      About 1359.59 or 1360 kilograms. If that mass moves at the average speed of Normal Human Speed (6.35 m/s).... 27.41 kj or 27,410 joules. Wall Level begins at 15,000 & ends at 20,920,000.

      If we went and used the fastest human baseball pitch ever (106 mph or 47.38624 m/s) for the movement.... 1.527 megajoules (or 1,527,000 joules.). Still Wall Level, but almost a whole thirteenth of Maximum Wall Level.

      If you're wondering about KE feats for human masses, this blog is helpful: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Mr._Bambu/General_Calc:_KE_and_Humans 

      Also, since the vehicle-like Hot Rods were brought up, let's experiment. What if they were as heaviest as the heaviest real car ever and as fast as the fastest real car ever? Not like we perfectly know the Hot Rods' materials or density.

      Nothing passes 6,600 kg, and the fastest on my source is 124.222222 m/s. 

      About 50.92 Megajoules , or 50,920,000 joules. 30 million higher than Max Wall Level, a little over half of max Small Building Level.

      So we'll need either very big or very fast vehicular enemies for them to break 9-B.

      For explosions....

      If you are having a hard time using the nuclear calculator, this equation can be used to find the yield of said explosion.

      • Air blast radius (near-total fatalities) Yield: Y = ((x/0.28)^3)/1000 with Y in megatons of TNT and x in km.

      Let's pretend we have a spherical explosion that's 4 times the height of an adult man. So 6.8 meters in diameter. About 59,930,005.83 joules. Note that we may have to halve it for being non-nuclear, and I'm not sure if it being above ground affects things.

      Also Small Building Level. Some Heartless might have explosions about this big.

      I'm not entirely sure about Earth Manipulation and Hurricane Creation feats, and frankly, this post is long enough already, right? They can get a yield, but I'm not sure on how to calc.

      Anyway, that should give you some idea of the rough yield of several kinds of feats Heartless have performed.

      Anyway, I hope this helps!

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    • 9-A for fodder seems surprisingly consistent.

      The explosion one seems to be the best one to take, however, the Earth Manip and Hurricane creation ones can totally use a calc, as they can lead to even higher results.

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    • It could be. Spring Metals also make impressively big tornados. I think this calc might help give us an idea how to calc them: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan/Tweester_(Mario)

      Keep in mind, that Tweester is several times the height of Luigi, & Mario's official like, 5 feet tall. At minimum, that calc hits roughly 2% of Max Wall Level, & its highest yield is nearly 18% of Max Wall Level. Heartless are helped by having wider bases to their winds.

      Freezing feats are also diminished if the whole body isn't frozen, and in any case, we also need good footage.

      Also, Driller Moles may be nice to find footage of. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:Kaltias/Monty_Mole's_tunnel​​​​​ That feat got  2.997.660.199,2036843 Joules. (If I'm reading that right, almost 3 billion.)

      We may be able to get similar ratings, depending on the speed, paths & materials for Driller Moles' burrowing. Hopefully it's not an outlier!

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    • I guess just using 9-A as the standard for most Heartless seems fine as of now, right? At least after we get the tornado and the Gigas stuff calculated.

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    • Anyways, it seems the Pumpkin bombs you mentioned in 358/2 Days are also a thing in KHI's Halloween Town.

      However, the explosions appear to be smaller than the ones of Crimson Jazz, so they likely aren't worth a calc.

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    • Bump.

      After the Gigas and the tornado get a calc we can move on to the next step, creating profiles for fodder and finally upgrading Disney guys from "Unknown" to something like "9-A, possibly at least High 4-C".

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    • That's a big Gap in power right there I agree.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Bump.

      After the Gigas and the tornado get a calc we can move on to the next step, creating profiles for fodder and finally upgrading Disney guys from "Unknown" to something like "9-A, possibly at least High 4-C".

      How about the toy profiles??

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    • The toys are getting their own calc as I'm sure the bosses just scaling to "normal sized" fodder is a no.

      They are going to keep "possibly High 4-C" either way as of now, however.

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    • So we add the old matches???

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    • If everything goes according to plan, yes.

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    • H I G H  4 - C  W O O D Y  I S  B A C K ,  BOYS.

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    • R E E E E E E

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    • Why are you reeing it's suppossed to be a good thing and ree is an expression of anger.

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    • I’m angered remembering Woody getting Demolished by, what was it? 4 DB characters? Somewhere around there?

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    • Yeah that makes sense.



      B U T  H E ' S  F I N N A L L Y  B A C K .

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      I’m angered remembering Woody getting Demolished by, what was it? 4 DB characters? Somewhere around there?

      You forgot MCU Thanos

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    • T O K I C K S O M E T A I L

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote:
      I’m angered remembering Woody getting Demolished by, what was it? 4 DB characters? Somewhere around there?

      You forgot MCU Thanos

      That was Buzz They’re different you Heathen

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    • Oh yeah, and Buzz got stomped

      Although to be fair, woody beat up elmer fudd

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    • And Popeye

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    • Anyways, are the changes ready to be applied?

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    • We have to get the Woody and Buzz calc first.

      Until then we can't.

      However, I guess it's fine to scale everyone else to the 9-A Heartless stuff, as they are even weaker than Shadows.

      Meaning that everyone but Woody and Buzz (Those have to wait) that are rated as of now as "Unknown", be rated as "9-A, possibly High 4-C" via scaling to the Driller Mole Heartless, with being able to keep up with Sora, Donald and Goofy as the reason for the latter rating.

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    • Good.

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    • What makes it so sure Driller Moles are weaker than Shadows? Also, do keep in mind the Crimson Jazz & the Silver Rock (recently finished) calculations got 9-B. Decently into 9-B. (SR is like, 9 or 10% of Maximum Wall Level, & CJ is in a similar range, I think.)

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    • So, they are 9-A via scaling to... some fodder enemy due to freezing a human, correct? I pretty much only need the name of that fodder (if it even has one) and I'm on it.

      Something like:

      At least Small Building level (Comparable to, if not superior to (Insert fodder name), which was able to freeze a human, which is this level)

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    • Well, IIRC, Driller Moles have weaker defenses than Shadows, let me check to be sure.

      Okay, after a quick checking in the KH Wiki that appears to not be the case...

      I guess only above-average Heartless would scale to Driller Moles, so just 9-B via the other stuff seems better overall.

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    • So the hot rod feat and the bat feat?

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    • Sorry for not understanding all that much, calc and KH are like rocket science to me.

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      So the hot rod feat and the bat feat?

      Those have to be ported to blog posts first.

      For now we can use the Crimson Jazz and the Spring Metal stuff to justify 9-B for everyone that's currently rated as "Unknown" but Woody and Buzz as the low end, as once again, the rating would turn from that to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C".

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    • Ok, sorry for that.

      Wall level (Comparable to Crimson Jazz and Spring Metal, who can do this and this respectively)

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    • It would be more like...

      "Wall level, possibly at least Large Star level (Is superior to groups of Shadow Heartless, which are somewhat comparable to Crimson Jazz and Spring Metal, can keep up with Sora, Donald and Goofy)"

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      So, they are 9-A via scaling to... some fodder enemy due to freezing a human, correct? I pretty much only need the name of that fodder (if it even has one) and I'm on it.

      Something like:

      At least Small Building level (Comparable to, if not superior to (Insert fodder name), which was able to freeze a human, which is this level)

      You may have been looking at this post of mine in this thread .

      It links to https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/References_for_Common_Feats#Freezing_a_Human which points out that freezing a whole, 62 kg human gets about 21,688,065 joules.

      Unfortunately, Small Building Level begins at 20,920,000 joules. So freezing a HOLE human is only about 768,065 joules higher than baseline SBL.

      I don't know much it differs for 358's other player characters (Potential upgrade?) but here's some footage that shows Vexen is far from having his whole body frozen: 
      SkaterBombAin'tNoFrozone

      There's an image, too, in case you're unwilling/unable to view the video.

      It's sketchy if it would make SBL.

      As for the "bat feat", I'm not sure what you mean @ Joaco0902 .

      I might've mentioned bat swinging speeds to help give an idea of what yields some Kinetic Energy feats can get?

      Again, though, it's possible other 358 Days have Frozen states that show a higher yield.

      But then again, they're all Nobodies who don't exist, right? Should we assume it's just game mechanics induced stupidity because Nobodies, not existing, don't have any water in their bodies TO freeze?

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    • Also, questions:

      1. Why not base Heartless scaling on recommended entry levels of worlds in the story, since that's sort of a rough, but still developer-indended guideline for the power level progression?

      2. Why are Woody & Buzz exceptions to the scaling tree, assuming they scale differently from other Disney, world-specific partner charactes?

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    • Well, Nobodies do have a body, they just don't "truly" exist, which is another thing, so yeah, they totally have water in there, Heartless also have NPI by being able to harm them, so there's no issue there.

      They don't have Self-Sustenance beyond type 1 for a reason.

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    • Imaginym wrote:
      Joaco0902 wrote:
      So, they are 9-A via scaling to... some fodder enemy due to freezing a human, correct? I pretty much only need the name of that fodder (if it even has one) and I'm on it.

      Something like:

      At least Small Building level (Comparable to, if not superior to (Insert fodder name), which was able to freeze a human, which is this level)


      As for the "bat feat", I'm not sure what you mean @ Joaco0902 .

      I might've mentioned bat swinging speeds to help give an idea of what yields some Kinetic Energy feats can get?

      Yes, that's what I meant. I thought that you were talking about a bat-wielding enemy in a Chicken Little level or something.

      There... is a Chicken Little level, right?

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    • Lol no, Chicken Little only does a minor cameo in KHII as a summon (Which is why he's solid High 4-C, nothing more from that beyond the other cameo as a badge in Union X).

      KH is a hack and slash series (Like Bayonetta and DMC), BTW, so there's really no such thing as "levels" in the same fashion as Mario.

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    • Bobsican: KH is a hack and slash series (Like Bayonetta and DMC), BTW, so there's really no such thing as "levels" in the same fashion as Mario.

      I referred to the "worlds".

      Anyways, I think I finished em' all.

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    • I'm sure the OP misses the rest of the pirate crew, at the verse page (Aka, those that scale to Jack Sparrow)

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    • oof I'm on it.

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    • Wait, did Ant ALLOW them to be possibly High 4-C, that needs to be accepted??????

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    • Ok, that should be it.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote:
      Wait, did Ant ALLOW them to be possibly High 4-C, that needs to be accepted??????

      I'm going to go ahead and ask Ant for input once more.

      Edit: Better not, Ant is always busy and I don't want to annoy him.

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    • So if I’m reading this correctly the proposal is scaling the Disney characters to fodder and Sora as a possible high end?

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    • Js250476 wrote: So if I’m reading this correctly the proposal is scaling the Disney characters to fodder and Sora as a possible high end?

      ^ Same question.

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    • Js250476 wrote:
      So if I’m reading this correctly the proposal is scaling the Disney characters to fodder and Sora as a possible high end?

      Yes, that's the thing.

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    • Ok then, all we need is ant to approve possibly high 4-C then we can wrap up on the main fodder.

      Now we need a tier for the toys

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    • The toys already have something to scale to, but the calc is yet to be made.

      Calculating electricity is far more of a pain than expected.

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Lol no, Chicken Little only does a minor cameo in KHII as a summon (Which is why he's solid High 4-C, nothing more from that beyond the other cameo as a badge in Union X).

      KH is a hack and slash series (Like Bayonetta and DMC), BTW, so there's really no such thing as "levels" in the same fashion as Mario.

      Except there kind of ARE levels? https://youtu.be/v52g4EBQ-ew?t=13 Every world in KH1 & KH2 has a Battle Level, IIRC. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Experience

      Also, in KH2, enemies have level statistics, which vary depending on where they're found. https://kingdomhearts.fandom.com/wiki/Soldier#Stats_.26_Abilities Take a look at the KHII Tab for the Soldier on that page, for example.

      And you yourself mentioned what seemed to be basing scaling on statistics with comparing the Defense of Driller Moles to Shadows , so why not use the Battle Level & Level statistics?

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    • Battle level per world is only shown in KHI IIRC

      Shadows have been in nearly every single world that Sora has visited, but the same can't be said for Driller Moles.

      I compared the stats of Driller Moles in KHII and Shadows in Olympus Coliseum, it appears that, surprisingly, Driller Moles hold better stats than Shadows.

      However, latter games instead say the recommended level to be grinded at before entering it, so if we want to stretch it a bit (game mechanics and all), Shadows can somewhat scale to Driller Moles, but overall, just sticking to 9-B seems more consistent.

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    • KH2 doesn't have Battle Level? KH Fandom Wiki says: "In Kingdom Hearts II, experience is once again obtained after defeating enemies. The overall amount obtained varies accordingly in relation to the battle level."

      Am I misinterpreting something, or is there not a battle level in KH2?

      But yeah, not entirely sure what's best, but games do use a recommended level system for worlds, & often, enemies do have levels that vary by world.

      And yeah, 9-B is probably more consistent AtM. (Unless we can get some footage/screenshots from 358/2 Days of Skater Bombs freezing characters other than Vexen. That MIGHT get Small Building Level.)

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      The toys already have something to scale to, but the calc is yet to be made.

      Calculating electricity is far more of a pain than expected.

      Isn't there some conversion sites which can convert watts to joules?????

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    • The problem is getting the watts themselves as values from electrical explosions.

      As for the level stuff yes, Sora and others can level up in all the series, but that doesn't exactly extends to they way "worlds" are treated in the games.

      Anyways, just checked, the "recommended" level thing I said is indeed the battle level, but we are taking game mechanics too far if you ask me, just leaving it at 9-B as you suggest is better and more consistent overall.

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    • Ok then, once ant accepts possibly high 4-C, we can move onto the toys and their tiers 

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    • Doubt Ant will be the one that will gett hsi accepted, he'll just request to ask the other users knowledgeable on the series as usual.

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    • Did you ask the knowledgeables????????

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    • I already did, but they don't seem to have replied much yet.

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    • Sorry, i was busy with personal stuff.

      So from what i've seen here, i think this is ok. After all, the characters can harm Heartless and even the weakest of teh Heartless can harm Sora so they can (partially) scale. 

      Also, thank you for the "order" part. I mean, it always bothered me that we had the idea that Sora was restraining himself because the "order" part was only about not outright saying there are other worlds (granted some characters already knew about them in certain worlds like the Mirror) and making sure they wouldn't intefere in specific events. 

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    • All things considered these seem okay with me.

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    • Js250476 wrote:
      All things considered these seem okay with me.

      Even for the toys??????

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    • Personally, i don't see why they shouldn't be affected by this. All the Disney characters that were noted "Unknown" should get the "At least 9-B/9-A, possibly High 4-C" . 

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    • So the toys are also possibly high 4-C???????

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    • While we are at it, the note on the verse page and the Editing Rule that regarded this stuff needs to be updated.

      The question it, to what exactly?.

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    • The discussion rule for KH isn't about the scaling

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    • Edited my reply, oops, mixed them up.

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    • I'm Blue Since the scale is about all the "Unknown" characters, it seems so. 

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    • Maybe something like?:

      "Given that most of the Disney characters (such as those from Tarzan, The Hunchback of Notre Dame and Toy Story) were strictly displayed at power levels close to those within their original movies within their native "worlds", it is assumed that travelers between them, such as Sora, are automatically scaled in relation to the story that they are transported to, in order not to overwhelm and break it. In addition, it would also lead to them being very inconsistent with what they've shown in their respective movies as just because they fought alongside or against Sora and the others doesn't mean that they are automatically scaled to High 4-C and Massively FTL+ speeds.

      For this reason we cannot directly scale the characters within those "worlds" to Sora or other keyblade wielder displayed at their peaks, unless they have broken free from the constraints of their own "world" and are traveling the worlds freely, such as is the case with Pete and Maleficent or King Mickey, Donald and Goofy, or scale to someone that has been able to go to another world and has no reason to restrain itself, like with Oogie Boogie to Jack Skellington.

      However, because this is completely hypothetical to prevent everyone directly scaling to Keyblade Wielders, they can still scale to them as the high-end, with their low showings (beating up Heartless) being usable to scale accordingly, such as is the case with James P. Sullivan or Woody."

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    • This seems good

      Also, unrelated KH VS Question. Is Xehanort VS Misogi Kumagawa fair

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    • Lol no, Kumagawa nopes with All Fiction everything then proceeds to plot hax.

      Best case scenario it's a mismatch either way.

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    • He can't harm Xehanort due to not having a way to hit him due to NEP and Misogi doesn't have plothax

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    • Well, one thing for sure is that it won't end well, I just know it.

      Feel free making that mess, however.

      Anyways, updated the verse page, but I still need someone contacting some staff member to update the editing rule accordingly.

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    • Should we add Possibly high 4-C and their old matches back to the toys profiles

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    • For now something like "Unknown, possibly at least High 4-C (While Heartless in their homeworld currently have unknown statistics, can somewhat keep up with Sora, Donald and Goofy)" can be used, if you are that desperate.

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    • Hey!!!

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    • Besides them, I think we should be fine as the rest of the fodder seem finished

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    • We likely should search for something to scale their speed as a low-end.

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    • Heartless in their homeworld have unknown statistics? Despite the calculations? Is this about Heartless Level or the distinction of them being Pureblood vs Emblem Heartless?

      Also, some Disney characters only appear in worlds with Unversed, but eh. Are there any that appear with Nobodies?

      Also, Gummi Heartless/Nobodies/Unversed should be tiered distinctly, right?

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    • Gummi Heartless/Nobodies should get their own tiers, yes.

      For the Disney characters, well, that's only the case for Birth by Sleep stuff , of which currently there are no profiles to speak of and no one can reasonably scale to them beyond maybe Sparky, who would need Metamorphosis (the Unversed) getting a calc in some way.

      For Heartless, as the OP says, the lowest they can be is 9-B, but they won't scale to High 4-C at all unless they are bosses in some way.

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    • Speed feats for the Disney characters, or for the fodder, you mean?

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    • the fodder.

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    • Imaginym wrote:
      Speed feats for the Disney characters, or for the fodder, you mean?

      Yes, the fodder, as just having "Unknown, possibly Massively FTL+" on Disney profiles is weird.

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    • Didn't they react to lightning in the games????/

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    • Agreed. Hmmm.... I'm not sure about below that, but don't some enemies in Port Royal use guns to attack? Then again, aimdodging is a thing.

      Electricity is also an option, but aside from the Gigas, unsure of the basis. Could comb through dialogue looking for statements that support feats, speed or otherwise.

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    • Yeah, it should be something else than the Gigas stuff (At least for anyone not named Woody or Buzz, even then, we can't use the default MHS+ thing here for obvious reasons, so a calc of Woody dodging would be needed).

      Outside of this, yeah, we'll have to look for speed stuff for them to scale too, as I'm sure there's something above subsonic they can scale too, Heartless included.

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    • In theory, Chip & Dale might be a basis for reactions, since they talk during Gummi Missions, & do react to things. But since that's their job & also they're back at Disney Castle -aren't they?- it's unclear if they might not be receiving the info with a delay. Though, if they are, the timing of their dialogue helps support it not being a negligible delay.

      In any case, if Gummi Stuff gets good travel speed, it MIGHT provide a reaction feat for Chip and Dale.

      There's probably other stuff, though.

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    • Scaling Chip and Dale to that is a no, otherwise nearly all Star Wars characters would be MFTL+ without spaceships.

      Massively FTL+ can still scale to Heartless and Nobodies Sora and others meet while in their Gummi Ship, however.

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    • Good to know. Guess the search continues.

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    • Anyways, it seems I need staff input so the editing rule can be updated accordingly.

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    • What part concerns the editing rule? I'd rather just focus on that myself

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    • Wokistan wrote:
      What part concerns the editing rule? I'd rather just focus on that myself

      That one editing rule specifically about KH scaling

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    • Well I don't know anything about the verse so I probably shouldn't deal with that. I thought it was just a general rule.

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    • Fair enought.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

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    • Apologies for the very late reply, i forgot about this, but i agree with the Revision 

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    • What are the conclusions here?

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    • Antvasima wrote:

      "In a nutshell, my proposal is for KH fodder to be rated as 9-B thanks to the calcs, any Heartless in the Realm of Darkness is At least High 4-C and all the Disney characters with an "Unknown" rating get updated to "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" via scaling to the Heartless fodder and Keyblade users."

      The above appears to be accepted, however, there hasn't been any staff input so far.

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    • Well, the problem is that the Disney characters are not portrayed as any more powerful than in their original stories within their own worlds.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      However, scaling to something like "At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C" for the ones currently at Unknown (not the fodder) may be possible as they can indeed keep up with others of this level (Anyone with a Keyblade), even if it sounds absurd per all the current standards on the verse, while the fodder itself is 9-B as said before.

      Them (Sora and company) being restrained in power is never brought up, they keep "Order" by not being too outstanding/weird by that world's standards (even if they use magic and technology anyways, as we can see very notably on San Franstokyo with Sora using Blizzaga, Flowmotion and even formchanges in a cutscene, let alone that moment where they talk about each world having their own laws and directly saying that they come from another world right behind Jack Sparrow's back, who was clearly listening), you don't see them bursting stars each second in worlds where "Order" is not needed either, for instance, so scaling Castlevania style isn't that much of an stretch (Aka, simply scaling like the way it's proposed above).

      Well, as we can see in the above from the OP, Ant, there's really no reason beyond sheer headcanon for them to not scale, we never cared about author intent anyways.

      Them keeping 9-B is already an stretch, it's only there to avoid everyone but fodder scaling directly to High 4-C.

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    • Okay. I suppose that seems to make sense.

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    • I've already asked all the knowledgeable active KH members on the site, but for some reason, staff ones in particular haven't replied so far (everyone else seems to agree, however).

      Maybe I should ask again?

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    • You can ask some other staff members as well. We have several new discussion moderators for example.

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    • Done, I hope it doesn't become too annoying.

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    • Okay. No problem.

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    • Oh boy. I'll read through this tomorrow.

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    • Personnally, i don't disagree with it. I mean the Disney characters we're talking about can fight the Heartless so...

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    • I haven't read the comments, but the OP seems fine to me.

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    • The comments don't really hold arguments (in favor or against it, IIRC), but rather development on the idea.

      Let's just say the OP was pretty different before, so I'm pointing that out as otherwise you'll quickly get lost.

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    • Bump.

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    • Bump.

      BTW, I think straight up "At least High 4-C" for Disney guys may be a good idea as not only are they far above the fodder in the same way as others like Donald, but leaving the original "9-B, possibly at least High 4-C" appears to bring potential scaling issues, for example, there's Sparky, who has never fought anyone beyond Terra, but he would at least scale to Stitch, who is...well, diretly scaling to others like Sora because he can leave his own world without needing help of others or a Keyblade, further supporting that being able to travel between worlds and power levels don't even relate, and that's assuming this wasn't sheer headcanon, as we all know it is as explained above.

      So this is to be considered at least.

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    • What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

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    • Don’t push it

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

      It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.

      It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      Joaco0902 wrote:
      What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?

      It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.

      It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

      Yeah, of course not. Heh, *Disappointed noises*

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Joaco0902 wrote:
      What about changing "possibly" for "likely"?
      It still brings scaling issues as stated above, just straight up "At least High 4-C" works.

      It's not like someone was going to use them in some odd 9-B match, which wouldn't be relevant either anyways.

      Believe it or not I was actually going to create a 9-B Bracket called "Joaco's Big Boi Bracket" when this was finished, and I was gonna add Wall level Woody as my character :´(

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    • Woody is still someone you could restrain by putting him on a pocket or sitting on him out of the poor size and lifting strength.

      But yeah, I think the above could be applied once Ant is fine with the changes.

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    • Sorry, i didn't follow this for a time but are we going to make the Disney characters At least High 4-C instead of At least 9-B, possibly High 4-C ? Cause i thought we agreeded they can't be High 4-C since they don't leave their world (sorry if this has already been answered, again i didn't follow this thread for a while) ? 

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    • I would prefer input from more staff members first. Have you asked all of the ones listed in the Kingdom Hearts verse page?

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    • I already have, but they didn't reply, I guess I'll do so once more.

      @Arkham While that's the case, I've noticed recently that doing it like that also brings scaling issues, as explained above a few replies ago, there's how it's based on nothing but sheer headcanon, and author intent was never a peiority in the site's standards (which is the main thing the idea of them (Keyblade Wielders) "holding power" is held), so still holding 9-B brings nothing but scaling issues, respectively.

      As for the "can't leave their world" part, well, as explained above in the OP, that doesn't really matter, there's not even anything relating power levels and leaving one as far I'm aware, especially considering, once again, the idea of Keyblade Wielders being restrained while in certain "worlds" to keep "Order" has been completely debunked, respectively.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      I already have, but they didn't reply, I guess I'll do so once more.

      Thank you.

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    • Bump.

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    • Since the staff members do not seem to reply, I suppose that this can probably be applied in lack of better options.

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    • So has anyone played (watched the walktrhough) to the Remind DLC ? Cause there is something very interesting in the secret episode. 

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    • I didn't realize walkthroughs of it already existed. I thought Remind wasn't releasing until a later date. I just wasn't sure what date at all.

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    • It was released yesterday (or in the night) apparently because there are multiple walkthroughs that appeared yesterday. I can't buy i for now due to specific reasons so i watched one of them. 

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    • What did it reveal?

      Btw, a new mobile game is coming out that reveals the background story for Xehanort.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      What did it reveal?

      Btw, a new mobile game is coming out that reveals the background story for Xehanort.

      ....I didn't think you to be so invested, Antvasima. But, whatever your stance, nothing wrong with that.

      I'll almost certainly look into what info can be gleamed about Re:Mind, in the near future, & if nobody speaks up here, I'll probably try to bring up things that seem relevant.

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    • SPOILER (I dont know how to make the banners so be carefull before reading) :

      1. Well first, Luxord is heavily implied to know who Xigbard is and to have a huge secret, to the point he openely says he purposefully acts like he knows nothing and isn't bothered by continuing to play along.

      2. The intro is a flashback of Xehanort 75 years in the past that shows that he met the Master of Master. In fact, the Master manipulated him into succombing to the Darkness, using his ego and giving him a Black Coat before saying he believes the worlds need Xehanort's power and that he won't need a coat for long as he will be capable of controlling the Darkness without it. Oh, and he also revealed his name but we don't hear it. So it's more or less confirmed that the Master is basically the one who caused the events of the entire series.

      3. There's a secret episode in wich the Guardians try to find Sora for a year by splitting (Kairi is kind of put in a coma to find him notably) but after a year, they still don't know where he is. Then Sora meets none other than Yozora and they fight (Yozora is a secret boss). There are two endings, with one where Sora wins and the other where Yozora wins. Apparently, the canon ending is the latter, with Yozora turning Sora into crystal. Then you find him at the back of car like he was sleeping (the scene is basically one of the Versus XIII scenes in a trailer with Noctis in a car) and the man who pilots the car sounds strangely like Luxord. 

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    • Okay. Thank you. So what happens if Sora wins the fight with Yozora, and does this mean that the next trilogy will focus on Sora jumping between the Final Fantasy story settings instead of Disney, to symbolise that he is gradually growing in maturity? It was mentioned that he had outgrown the Winnie the Pooh world for example.

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    • "Then you find him at the back of car like he was sleeping (the scene is basically one of the Versus XIII scenes in a trailer with Noctis in a car) and the man who pilots the car sounds strangely like Luxord."

      Sora or Yozora is found in the back of a car?

      If the canon ending has Sora turning to crystal, & KH3's ending features Sora disappearing.... Is Sora gone for good? :(

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    • @Antvasima If Sora wins, Yozora appears to not even be exhausted by the fight and starts to vanish, saying that his poweers are not needed yet. Then car scene happens anyway. Aside from that, there's nothing very clear about the FF worlds exactly but considering we see the FF characters here, it's quite possible, especially since Verum Rex is basically FF Versus XIII. 

      @Imaginym Yozora is in the car. As for the man that pilots the car, you don't see him but you see that he's blond and his haricut is very similar to Luxord's (and again, he sounds like him). Also (forgot about this), before the fight, Yozora says that someone told him to protect Sora but he doesn't know who. And when Yozora "wakes up", he literally says the same words Sora first said at the beginning of the first game. For the rest, it's likely that Yozora will have a great importance in the story and maybe he will help to save Sora (his story continues after the Xehanort Saga after all so...). 

      Another thing, the crystal thing with Sora on the other hand is VERY reminiscent of the l'Cie turning into crystals in the FF XIII saga. So...are we really bring the fal'Cie and Bhinuvelze here ? Cause i think Sora and co will have problems to solve XD. 

      In any case, it's a good start to make a profile for Yozora and it's likely that he can be Possibly 3-A considering that Sora fights him after his disappearence (and even if Yozora loses, he's clearly not exhasuted by this). 

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    • Here's a short list of what Yozora does during the fight (i probably missed some things) :

      - He can teleport (and it's both similar to Sora's and Noctis's teleportation). 

      - He can manipulate and project energy under different forms, from a ray to swords beam and can also create barriers and some kind of aura or armor or energy.

      - He can project water that follows Sora before exploding into a wave.

      - At one point, he traps Sora un cage of energy, jumps above it, breaks it with his sword that somehow turns into a Keyblade (it's possible he literally copies the ability to use a Keyblade) and it's apparently impossible to escape this.

      - He creates Keyblades from the ground that follow Sora then creates them around him in what is basically Xemnas's ultimate attack in KH II except this time, it includes both lasers and Keyblades. 

      - He can create three...things that look like machines and create a triangle of energy around Sora to trap him before shooting him and deconstructing themselves. 

      - His energy attacks really look like he's using pixels or a video-based powers (like the video power in InFAMOUS Second Son). 

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    • Okay. Thanks for the information.

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    • Okay, in that case I guess it should be fine to just remove the rule at this point, which includes the Editing Rule specifically for KH.

      Once it has been removed, I'll go ahead and update the verse page accordingly.

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    • This is a bit off-topic, given it largely doesn't concern "Fodder" nor "Unknown" rating KH characters, but with the availability of the contents of Kingdom Hearts III Re:Mind, there is a lot of new material to discuss.

      Do we have a KH General Discussion Thread? Or a discussion for the Re:Mind DLC specifically?

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    • I think we have a GD thread but i'm not sure and we don't have a Re:Mind thread for now so feel free to make one. 

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    • I've created a KH3 Re:Mind General Discussion Thread. https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3959937

      I'll wait for activity there before I say what's on my mind about the DLC so far. I still have a few more things to experience, & it's quite fun so far, so I have some reason to be a bit inactive in that thread currently.

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    • Okay, this thread can be closed.

      I'll go ahead and update the Disney profiles to be straight up High 4-C, thanks.

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    • Okay then.

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