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  • Super Saiyan God Julian
    Super Saiyan God Julian closed this thread because:
    Waiting until this thread concludes: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:4150237?useskin=oasis
    00:46, March 30, 2020

    Continued from this thread

    WARNING: Putting this at the very beginning. DO NOT derail this thread with anything that has nothing to do with the topic in question please. The previous thread I made on this was massively derailed by different topics that had nothing to do with why I made my downgrade thread in the first place and made everything a confusing cluttered mess to sort through to have a proper discussion. So this thread is to continue and ONLY discuss the topic at hand. Anything that is considered off-topic I kindly ask to be dropped or removed from the replies if neccessary. 

    Now, im reposting my original points as to why I made my thread to begin with. Along with points from the previous thread that actually had something to do with the original topic. 

    Tl;dr of this threads purpose

    So to make the long story short for anyone who hasn't been aware of whats been going on, a thread was made for Alien X and Celestialsapiens to be upgraded to 2-B because of Professor Paradox making statements about Celestialspaiens holding the strongest power he has ever seen, which would mean they would be above the power of his Chrono Navigator, which is 2-B. The upgrade went through and that is the current justification for 2-B Celestialsapiens and Alien X. You can find this on their pages. And as I argued for before, I am still against this upgrade being applied. At least in the way it currently is being applied.

    Now, the previous thread had a lot of points being thrown around to be in-favor/against the upgrade, half of which came from me. But for this thread, im only going to reiterate one of those arguments as it addressees the most important piece of information on why the upgrade even went through in the first place. That, and for all intents and purposes, it was very much ignored while I was away.

    My argument

    So, in response to the whole "Celestialspaiens hold the greatest power in the universe, which makes them stronger than the Chrono Navigator and makes them 2-B" argument, here is a counter-argument that I addressed in the thread twice.

    "Then that is what i'll repeat on this note first because that is the most important part of this argument. We don't have any actual concrete evidence that Paradox's statements about Celestialspaiens's "power" is even referring to Attack Potency or raw strength in the first place. Out of all those statements, we have 2 statements, one from Paradox and one from Serena herself, that bring a different perspective of context to this regarding "power".

    Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.

    Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

    Pay close attention to what I bolded out in both statements. "Its where ideas become real" and "change the very nature of space and time" have nothing to do with Attack Potency or any kind of raw strength. Thats explicitly reality warping and space-time manipulation. Serena and Paradox here are implying that Celestialsapien's abilities are what constitutes as the greatest power in the universe, not their strength. And while im not saying they are 100% referring to this, this definitely brings into context about what "power" is being referred to when it comes to Celestialsapiens. And it talking about hax instead is a pretty reasonable conclusion to consider when Celestialsapiens are not only known for having many kinds of abilities compared to other alien races, but they are mostly known for altering universe's (a hax feat) as many times as someone changes their shirt. They even constantly change the art-style of the franchise like with Azmuth. All of which is strictly a matter of abilities, not strength.

    So before anything else is done, we need to take into consideration that "greatest power in the universe" may not even being referring to raw strength at all, but hax abilities, as 2 statements and what Celestialsapiens commonly do imply. The problem with the upgrade here is that it is taking these statements and automatically assuming the context of "greatest power" is talking about Attack Potency to scale Alien X above everything when no concrete evidence actually suggests this context is the case. If anything, only the opposite has been put into detail."

    This is my argument that was ignored for the rest of the thread, all the way up to the upgrade being accepted, while I was away. And what I quoted speaks for itself. All of the statements made for Celestialsapiens holding the "greatest power" in the universe are vague statements with little to no context being applied to suggest what "greatest power" in this sense is actually talking about. All except for 2 statements, one made by Paradox and one made by Serena herself, that actually give more context about "power". And they are not talking about Attack Potency. They are strictly talking about hax abilities. Just to make sure that none of you miss what im talking about, lets go through all of the statements made in support for the Celestialsapeins tier.

    Statements used to support 2-B Celestialsapiens

    Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

    Already dealt with this. This statement is referring to Space-Time Manipulation. Not Attack Potency.

    Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.

    "Greatest power" here is vague and has no context surrounding it, unlike the previous statement which deals with space-time manipulation.

    Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!

    "Greatest power" here, again, is vague. There's no context on what "greatest power"  is being referred to.

    • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.

    Self explanatory. I don't even have to go into how "can do anything" is quite obviously vague. 

    • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.

    Once again, already dealt with this. "Ideas becoming real" is not Attack Potency. It is Reality Warping. 

    • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.

    This would actually be a 3rd statement that supports my argument when looking back at this. Paradox here says "abilities", not strength. And "omnipotent" is quite obviously self-explanatory on why its ambiguous and even more extremely vague.

    We have 6 statements in total here about Celestialsapiens. And out of the 6, half of them are referring to hax abilities instead of raw brute power, which is what Attack Potency is. And the other half? Have no context. Adding this with Celestialsapiens being commonly known for altering universes and having many abilities, none of these statements suggest for one moment that Celestialspaiens hold more raw strength than anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse. 

    "Greatest power still means power in general"

    Now, this argument was brought up in the thread and I expect it to be repeated here in an attempt to counter my points. So im going to address it now.

    For those of you who want to argue "holding the greatest power means straight up having the greatest power", as in the sense of being the strongest in general when it comes to raw power and everything else, that isn't how this works here. Why? Because of one simple reason: context matters.

    When we have a feat or a statement that has different context's going against each other, what it comes down to is which interpretation has the greater supply of evidence to support it. It's similar to when a character in a certain tier is hit with an anti-feat. The burden of proof of them being in the said tier they're rated at becomes even bigger. You cannot automatically assume that the context of "greatest power" here is talking about strength when evidence for the opposite interpretation is being shown, to the extreme. Normally, the default assumption of "greatest power" would be to assume that it is talking about Attack Potency rather than just some powerful hax ability for the sake of occams razor. But in the case here with Alien X, we have nothing but the opposite of Attack Potency suggested from the very evidence used to support his tier. Yet, for some abitrary reason, we are using this to scale Alien X's AP to above something it is not even directly compared to just because "it should be acknowledged". 

    Simply put, if anyone disagrees with this and argues "greatest power" = Attack Potency instead of hax abilities, then it means the Burden of Proof grows even bigger for you and requires you to give even more evidence that your interpretation of the evidence is the correct one. Otherwise, what has more detail and context put into it takes priority. And so far, no one in support of the upgrade has done this. 

    The Everlasting's thoughts

    What the sub-title says. The Everlasting also has some points about this that he wanted me to address for him, so this section will be for relaying what he thinks about this argument for 2-B.

    "Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind. All of the statements come before Omniverse when the Chrono Navigator was nothing more than a traveling device and not a multiverse-ending weapon. It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result. The statements about Alien X being the strongest power in the universe were not written with the intent of him being a multiverse buster by applying it to the Chrono Navigator. One guy brought that up in the thread."

    "I'd for sure consider the ability to control the fabric of reality and (Going by Word of God statements) rewrite universal concepts on a fundamental level an absolute power. The statement I'm referring to is that one of the writers was asked if Alien X could control mana like Anodites can, and they said that he'd need to rewrite the fundamentals of mana in order to do so."

    "Also yeah, they're the "greatest power in the universe" but Osmosians can absorb their powers and even he coudn't survive Anur Vladias."

    The last point The Everlasting made here would also suggest Celestialsapiens are known more for their hax abilities rather than attack potency. Because for one, Osmosians are able to absorb a Celestialsapiens powers, which would be impossible if their raw power was the greatest in the universe. The fact that they can be forcibly absorbed would support it being a matter of abilities, which falls perfectly under power absorption. Not only that, but Celestialsapiens are not even able to survive on Anur Vladias. Confirmed by Derrick J Wyatt

    EDIT: Ignore whats been crossed out since it was addressed in the previous thread and agreed to not be worth anything argument wise.

    Now, im also adding another point that was brought up about the topic before it went off track. 

    DMB1's Point

    Now before anyone jumps the gun, no, I don't have any problem with Ben 10's Multiverse staying 2-B. Im mostly impartial to that to be honest. But a point was brought up in the previous thread by DMB1 himself claiming that the Ben 10 Multiverse being 2-B at all is something very questionable. This was discussed, but I don't remember if this was given a proper conclusion/consesus. So im adding it to the OP so that, incase it doesn't, it can.

    "What I don't particularly understand, is how (according to the justifications) they are 2-B despite the Multiverse being made of just Hundreds of Timelines at the time.

    Even if it expands ad infinitum, the if at that point in time there are just hundreds of timelines, it would seem that its expansion would be rather slow. If it was much faster, like in the case of Dragon Ball Xenoverse/Heroes' Multiverse, there would be a far larger amount of them."

    "Expand exponentially" is impossible if from the beginning of the multiverse to the years 2000-whenver Ben 10 takes place the current amount of timelines formed is within the hundreds.

    Besides, even if that was 2-B, it still wouldn't mean that it would be DBH levels of 2-B (I'm mentioning this as people seem to take this as a reference when discussing Alien X's Ap in Vs threads) as you'd have to prove that literally every single possibility creates a new timeline.

    A mutliverse that expands "ad infinitum" is as vague as it can get without defined mechanics.

    My Proposals

    So, you've all seen the reasons on why the current 2-B ratings are incorrect. So now, here are 2 proposals im pushing for

    Proposal 1: Remove 2-B entirely

    Im open to Proposal 2, but this one is where I lean towards more. The current evidence for supporting the 2-B scaling is flawed as its completely disregarding the need for context, much less ignoring the option that they are being misinterpreted to allow Alien X to scale above something it is not even directly compared with. If people want to argue for "greatest power" meaning attack potency, more evidence is needed to confirm that interpretation of the evidence is the case here, not just assuming it is. Without it, then Alien X and Celestialsapiens have nothing to justify scaling them to the Chrono Navigator. So unless some more evidence comes, this proposal will mean removing 2-B entirely and returning them back to Low 2-C.

    Agreeing with P1: LaggingAround, TheArsenal212, Zephyros Omega

    Proposal 2: Downgrade to "Possibly 2-B"

    Like I said above, I am open to a compromise and letting them keep their 2-B rating, but with a possibly added to it instead of treating them as flat out 2-Bs. That way, this would acknowledge the scaling as being possible rather than 100% factual, as well as acknowleding it being too extremely vague and conjectural to be given a pure 2-B rating. Even The Everlasting said he would be fine with this if wanting to make a compromise.

    Agreeing with P2: Spinoirr, LordGriffin1000, Christian Higdon, Andytremon, Psychomaster35, Antvasima, GalacticIron, Jimboydejuan 12, EpicCookie12342, DragonicDoom

    Neutral: Zamasu Chan

    EDIT: Im keeping the votes as they are as they were made based on the actual topic. 

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    • Going with P2, since it would be lame for Alien X to become a 2-C punching bag again. I mean, it's more interesting being a 2-B punching bag imo.

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    • ....That isn't a reason to stop a downgrade.

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    • then don't count me and just ignore me because I am not the sharpest tool in the shed.

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    • Don't have a problem with the cosmology being 2-C either honestly

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    • Listentomyrhytm wrote:
      Going with P2, since it would be lame for Alien X to become a 2-C punching bag again. I mean, it's more interesting being a 2-B punching bag imo.

      I find it funny that a being who's whole shtick is that they could theoretically do anything is a punching bag no matter what tier we agree on.

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    • What is the source of this part " "What I don't particularly understand, is how (according to the justifications) they are 2-B despite the Multiverse being made of just Hundreds of Timelines at the time." ? When  Paradox shows the multiverse to No Wathc Ben, there are clearly way more than hundreds of timelines shown.

      And why wouldnt a character that can do anything, and have any imaginable power and is refered as omnipotent scale to the Chrono Navigator? The Chrono Navigator works entirely through hax, casuality and spacetime cant be destroyed with AP, so even if "greatest power" only refered to hax, it wouldnt matter for my argument.

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    • @Kukui remove the size of the verse from the OP I’ll make my own thread to get that accepted since I got another possible statement for that.

      As for the hax part, James Jaspers is rated as 2C for several reality warping hax feats and thus this would also apply to Alien X.

      One of Everlasting’s arguments basically relies on Paradox’s statement being retconned, which we do not assume if there is no reason to assume it.

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    • Doorinmyhouse wrote:
      What is the source of this part " "What I don't particularly understand, is how (according to the justifications) they are 2-B despite the Multiverse being made of just Hundreds of Timelines at the time." ? When  Paradox shows the multiverse to No Wathc Ben, there are clearly way more than hundreds of timelines shown.

      And why wouldnt a character that can do anything, and have any imaginable power and is refered as omnipotent scale to the Chrono Navigator? The Chrono Navigator works entirely through hax, casuality and spacetime cant be destroyed with AP, so even if "greatest power" only refered to hax, it wouldnt matter for my argument.

      One,  the episode called "Ben 10000 returns" . Paradox in that episode explicitly said there were only hundreds of parallel worlds. 

      Two, that last bit was already dealt with and debunked in the previous thread. Why do people keep bringing it up? The Chrono Navigator does not destroy the Multiverse through hax in any way, shape, or form. It's a weapon of pure Attack Potency. The only hax it has is reality warping and time manipulation via traveling freely through time and literally anchoring timelines.

      Saying the Navigator is 2-B through hax because of space-time destruction is as silly as saying Goku and Vegeta are space-time warpers for being Low 2-C. Or any Low 2-C having space-time hax automatically.  

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    • Greenshifter wrote:

      As for the hax part, James Jaspers is rated as 2C for several reality warping hax feats and thus this would also apply to Alien X.

      This is also wrong as James has more to his justification such as creating 3-D spaces and actually growing in power. We don't treat hax feats the same as AP unless its explicitly proven to be combat based, otherwise its tiered seperately. Like 4-A creation feats that dont automatically make every pocket dimension user with stars inside their spaces 4-A.

      If anything, your only putting James into question along with Alien X. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

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    • Not really because the Chrono Navigator anchors timelines and has only shown to be used for space-time manipulation so it’s reasonable to assume it works via hax, yet the hax in question would still require 2B power.

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    • ProfessorKukui4Life wrote:

      Greenshifter wrote:

      As for the hax part, James Jaspers is rated as 2C for several reality warping hax feats and thus this would also apply to Alien X.

      This is also wrong as James has more to his justification such as creating 3-D spaces and actually growing in power. We don't treat hax feats the same as AP unless its explicitly proven to be combat based, otherwise its tiered seperately. Like 4-A creation feats that dont automatically make every pocket dimension user with stars inside their spaces 4-A.

      If anything, your only putting James into question along with Alien X. 2 wrongs dont make a right.

      James created 4D spaces, Chrono Navigator destroys a 4D structure aka the multiverse.

      You’re right that I’m putting James into question by saying this, however you can also see it as an extrapolation from low-2C characters like Rex Salazar and Lucy who are low-2C for having space-time manipulation on a universal scale yet having no feats/statements of actually destroying a universe, so the Chrono Navigator has a better case than them.

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    • Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production. Scaling them to the Chrono Navigator is reasonable. 

      Matt stated and reiterated during production that he can do "ANYTHING," with his "Omnipotence." This would include whatever prior feats took place before his response in the series like the Chrono Navigator. Even after the Time Bomb, they are still called omnipotent. Celestialsapiens are consistantly placed on top of the verse heiarchy by the source material and writers. In my previous upgrade thread, the admins agreed with the "greatest power" and "Omnipotence" Ben 10 statements I presented in scaling to the Chrono Navigator. They simply take it as the strongest power Paradox and the verse has ever seen.

      August 31, 2008 - X = Ben + 2

      • Serena: We're the most powerful being in the universe. We change the very nature of space and time.

      October 10, 2010 - Map of Infinity

      • Azmuth: If Aggregor can reassemble the map, he can travel to the forge of creation and gain the greatest power in the universe.

      November 12, 2010 - The Forge of Creation

      • Azmuth: Trivialities. While you did it about saving mere planets Aggregor obtained the means to travel to the forge of creation and obtain the greatest power in the universe!
      • Azmuth: It could work. Alien X can do anything.
      • Paradox: It is the source of the universe's greatest power. It's where ideas become real.
      • Paradox: Aggregor intends to absorb the abilities of a newborn Celestialsapien. Should he succeed, he will become omnipotent.

      October 27, 2012 - So Long, and Thanks for All the Smoothies

      • Serena: Alien X can do many things. We just both have to agree to it.

      January 19, 2013 - Ben Again

      • If desired, the Chrono Navigator can "cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself." "All of existence."

      13th September 2013 - Q&A With Matt Wayne

      • Q: If Serena and Bellicus agree, is Alien X omnipotent?
      • A: In this universe.
        • As all Celestialsapiens are born in the Forge of Creation that is outside the branching timelines, he is referring to the Ben 10 verse as a whole.
      • Q: 2. Like actually omnipotent? They can do ANYTHING they want if 2 out of 3 personalities agree?
      • A: Yes, but usually they're deadlocked, one to one.

      October 6, 2014 - And Then There Were None

      • Chronosapien Time Bomb debut.

      October 15, 2014 - Universe VS Tennyson

      • Chadzmuth: I put it to you ladies and gentle aliens and not so gentle aliens, is it right to hold one scrawny little human responsible for the misdeeds of an entire species of omnipotent beings?

      October 17, 2014 - Weapon XI: Part 2

      • (Ben used Alien X in Part 1)
      • Servantis: You think this omnipotent monster is the good guy?!
      • Kevin: I know it. Ben's the greatest friend I ever had.
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    • There are more than 1000 timelines in Ben 10.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Y-oTV9LtU

      https://imgur.com/a/NnfNB0C

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    • So we went from more than 100 in UA to more than 1000 in Omniverse, noted. I got another statement that might scale the chrono navigator to 2A but I don’t want to mention it until this revision is taken care off.

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    • Personally I vote for P2, because like many other characters with similar abilities, Alien X and his race are chock full of contradictions and vague difficult-to-quantify feats, making it possible he can be scaled higher than what he is currently, but simply due to a lack of evidence we can't give it to him. For example, I still think it is highly likely the Ben 10 verse is 17 dimensional based on Azmuth's statement about the Map of Infinity, being much more reliable than the Naljian statement, but because its the only time its ever stated its at best a "maybe". Still, you bring up some very good points overall, and I do agree a slight downgrade is needed.

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    • @Kukui> One,  the episode called "Ben 10000 returns" . Paradox in that episode explicitly said there were only hundreds of parallel worlds. 

      And in the sentence afterwards he says there are infinite, and he shows No Watch Ben that there are thousands of paralel worlds when he explains String Thoery and Quantum Mechanics to him. This is in the episode " And then there were none".

      Two, that last bit was already dealt with and debunked in the previous thread. Why do people keep bringing it up? The Chrono Navigator does not destroy the Multiverse through hax in any way, shape, or form. It's a weapon of pure Attack Potency. 

      It's not possible to destroy spacetime through AP. It's not possible to destroy casuality with solely AP. It's not possible to destroy time with AP.  The Chrono Navigator can literally destroy the concept of time and causality, how exactly is destroying concepts not hax?

      Saying the Navigator is 2-B through hax because of space-time destruction is as silly as saying Goku and Vegeta are space-time warpers for being Low 2-C. Or any Low 2-C having space-time hax automatically.

      Doesnt matter how silly it sounds really.  if they can literally destroy time and space, that would mean they have space time hax, as neither can be destroyed conventionally. Hax is something that cant be given any energy value whatsoever, which you cant do to universal destruciton.

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    • @Dragon care to name some of those vague feats or contradictions?

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    • I don't think there's any character or object that damages timelines and reality but doesn't qualify to have Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, or Time Manipulation

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    • prefer option 1

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    • This is round 3!

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    • Though I will make a long comment addressing why scaling Celestialpaiens to Chrono navigator is wrong and why the greatest and omnipotent statements are vague and have no context surrounding it in next week but I am ready for compromise and vote for option 2 because all these statements aren't solid enough for solid 2B but however if given more context it can be made 2B so I am down with Low 2C possiblly 2B

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    • Firestorm808 wrote:
      I don't think there's any character or object that damages timelines and reality but doesn't qualify to have Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, or Time Manipulation

      So you are telling me that we give Reality wrapping,Spatial manipulation or Time manipulation to characters who are Low 2C or beyond because they have power to affect timeline and beyond?

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    • Sorry for 3rd comment in the row and sorry for derailment but there is another character who I believe is 2C due to hax

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Dr._Robotnik_(Sonic:_The_Comic)#God

      So we use hax as Ap then?

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    • >Not really because the Chrono Navigator anchors timelines and has only shown to be used for space-time manipulation so it’s reasonable to assume it works via hax, yet the hax in question would still require 2B power.

      No, those are entirely separate feats that have nothing to do with each other. It anchoring timelines is a reality warping feat and it freely traveling through time is a time hax feat. Destroying time is something completely different so, no, it's not reasonable.

      Again, you can literally only make this connection by arguing space-time destruction equals having space-time hax. And the fact that not every Low 2-C and their mother here has space-time hax already should tell you how ridiculously wrong that idea is.

      >James created 4D spaces, Chrono Navigator destroys a 4D structure aka the multiverse.

      See above.

      >You’re right that I’m putting James into question by saying this, however you can also see it as an extrapolation from low-2C characters like Rex Salazar and Lucy who are low-2C for having space-time manipulation on a universal scale yet having no feats/statements of actually destroying a universe, so the Chrono Navigator has a better case than them.

      Once again, see above. Space-Time destruction =/= Space-Time manipulation.

      >Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production. Scaling them to the Chrono Navigator is reasonable.

      ...Im sorry, but this bit was just flat out irrelevant. My OP's is arguing against the statements meaning anything here. Not to mention, I already addressed this EXACT comment of your's in the previous thread. Why are you copy and pasting something that was already addressed? It's doing nothing but cluttering this thread up, again.

      >There are more than 1000 timelines in Ben 10.

      Those links show nothing like this. All we see are a group of universes depicted during Paradox talking to Ben. Arguing that there's more than a 1000 based off this is pure speculation.

      >And in the sentence afterwards he says there are infinite

      No, he doesn't. He says "Ad Infinitum", which is not infinite. It's infinitely expanding. Which means the number infinitely grows but will always remain finite. The very reason why the Multiverse was downgraded to 2-B currently.

      >and he shows No Watch Ben that there are thousands of paralel worlds when he explains String Thoery and Quantum Mechanics to him.

      See above. Nothing from whats shown in that episode shows there's more than a 1000 worlds. It is pure speculation.

      >It's not possible to destroy spacetime through AP. It's not possible to destroy casuality with solely AP. It's not possible to destroy time with AP.

      ...............the entirety of our Tiering System completely disagrees with you. It is very possible to destroy space-time through pure attack potency without using space-time hax. Go look up any tier 2 character here without space-time manipulation and you'll see why this argument is ridiculous. Here's 3 characters at the top of my head who are Low 2-C and lack any space-time hax.

      Unless you want to take this even further and now argue Low 2-C and up are tiers of pure hax, which anyone on this wikia would completely disagree with you on.

      >Doesnt matter how silly it sounds really. if they can literally destroy time and space, that would mean they have space time hax, as neither can be destroyed conventionally. Hax is something that cant be given any energy value whatsoever, which you cant do to universal destruciton.

      See above here too. Again, unless you want to take this even further and argue against how our tiering system works here, you're wrong on this point. Space-time can be destroyed through pure power without the need of hax. Simple as that.

      Also, I will update votes now.

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    • @ProfessorKukui4Life

      Those links show nothing like this. All we see are a group of universes depicted during Paradox talking to Ben. Arguing that there's more than a 1000 based off this is pure speculation.

      You are looking at the background, right? He's showing a map of all the timelines. There wouldn't be anything else in the map besides timelines. There are so many universes/timelines depicted around them.

      Just the ones I marked on this scan in red is 100 universes.

      100 Universes Marked


      ...............the entirety of our Tiering System completely disagrees with you. It is very possible to destroy space-time through pure attack potency without using space-time hax. Go look up any tier 2 character here without space-time manipulation and you'll see why this argument is ridiculous. Here's 3 characters at the top of my head who are Low 2-C and lack any space-time hax.

      @My area

      So you are telling me that we give Reality wrapping,Spatial manipulation or Time manipulation to characters who are Low 2C or beyond because they have power to affect timeline and beyond?

      That's not what my argument is about. First off, those 3 characters scale off from Fusion Zamasu. The argument is that a character with a feat of damaging the space-time continuum qualifies for Reality WarpingSpatial Manipulation, or Time Manipulation. We are not talking about characters that scale to said character getting said abilities.

      @Andytrenom or @Antvasima

      Can you please help settle this issue for us? When the Chrono Navigator damages timelines and destroys all reality, it qualifies as Reality Warping, right?

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    • >You are looking at the background, right? He's showing a map of all the timelines. There are so many universes/timelines depicted around them.

      And unless im getting something mixed up, you are assuming that all of the dots in said background suddenly equals different universes when absolutely nothing of the such is said or even implied. The only things we know are parallel universes are the different earths that are shown, which represent parallel universes and for obvious reasons.

      >First off, those 3 characters scale off from Fusion Zamasu. The argument is that a character with a feat of damaging the space-time continuum qualifies for Reality Warping, Spatial Manipulation, or Time Manipulation. We are not talking about characters that scale to said character getting said abilities.

      This is still completely and entirely wrong. So what if they are Low 2-C through scaling? The point is that they are evidence that characters can reach tier 2 here without needing to have space-time hax like you guys are starting to assume is a given ability once going beyond 3-A and that is absolutely false.

      To get reality warping, spatial manipulation, and/or time manipulation, you have to actually manipulate them to get the abilities. Destroying them is not a hax feat, its pure and simple attack potency. To argue otherwise to argue against the very basis of how we treat tier 2 in our tiering system in general.

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    • @ProfessorKukui4Life

      And unless im getting something mixed up, you are assuming that all of the dots in said background suddenly equals different universes when absolutely nothing of the such is said or even implied. The only things we know are parallel universes are the different earths that are shown, which represent parallel universes and for obvious reasons.

      If you watch the clip and see the changing camera angles, the clip shows that each white circle and dot are other universes. Why would a map of infinitely branching timelines show random stars or galaxies in the background? There's not just 20-ish universes in the clip.

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    • We are talking about the Chrono Navigator here. All it does are very powerful hax which give it the AP rating. Dimensional TravelTime TravelTime ManipulationMultiverse TravelReality Destruction (Reality Warping). In what way has the Chrono Navigator ever done something not through said listed abilities. 

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    • @Firestorm808 

      Except that is entirely wrong,damaging and destroying timeline isn't reality wrapping rather its a AP 2B level feat of destroying timelines thats how ap works in the site and that is the reason that we dont give space and time hax or reality wrapping to virtually any low 2C character who has power to destory timeline and beyond because its done by pure AP feat but if you are arguing that destroying or damaging timelines is reality wrapping then you need to make a content revision for change in reality wrapping and applying it to everyone who is Low 2C or above 

      Chrono navigator would threaten and destory the entire existence of 2B timelines is due to raw power or AP of Chrono navigator I dont see how Chrono navigator can cause destruction to whole existence by any hax

      Chrono navigator literally doesn't fill a single condition for reality wrapping at all I am not even sure why reality wrapping in the name of reality destruction is in Chrono navigator page at all because what it does "causing irreplaceable damage to time stream and destroy all of time and casuality" when destroying all of time and casuality means destroying all timelines which are expanding upto ad infinitum is literally 2B level AP feat and I dont see in any way that how it could be hax at all

      Its just doing what Demigra was doing with collapse and destruction of entire DBH multiverse which we treat it as AP feat so same should apply here honestly 

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    • @My area

      The root that I'm trying to get at is the belief that the Celestialsapiens's "greatest" and "Omnipotent" power that "can do anything" is limited to just Reality Warping and is below the Chrono Navigator. "Omnipotent" and "can do anything" has been accepted as being the strongest in the verse and doing any feat portrayed in the series. 

      Azmuth says that they can do anything, and Paradox calls them Omnipotent in Ultimate Alien. Ben Again in Omniverse airs, and the Chrono Navigator shows being able to destroy the Multiverse. Viewers wonder if Celestialsapiens are still considered Omnipotent, so they ask. Matt Wayne once again states that they are omnipotent and that they can do anything. Again, Omnipotence and doing anything refers to the above context. Therefore, he is saying that Celestialsapiens can do what the Chrono Navigator does. Following this, the show continues to referer to Celestialsapiens as omnipotent. The showrunners still view Celestialsapiens as higher than the Chrono Navigator.

      I ask, in what way during production did the writers and the show express that Celestialsapians are below the Chrono Navigator?

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    • I think that the interpretation that all of the references of the Celestialsapiens as the greatest power in the universe would only refer to their versatility/hax, and not their attack potencies, seems like unreliable headcanon/speculation/interpretation.

      However, The Everlasting made a good point when he stated that the Chrono Navigator had not yet been established as such a powerful weapon when most of those references took place.

      As such, I think that a compromise solution of "Possibly 2-B" seems better than just "Low 2-C".

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    • @Antvasima

      Even after the Chrono Navigator's debut of power, the writers and the show stay consistant in calling Celestialsapians the strongest in the verse. No retcons are made. The consistancy is one of the reasons why the admins accepted 2-B.

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    • Well, then I personally don't mind if they stay as they are, but it depends on what Andy and other staff members think.

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    • Low 2-C, likely 2-B is what I side with (assuming the navigator stays 2-B)

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    • Okay. That is probably fine then.

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    • @Andytrenom

      What's the current issue with regular 2-B?

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    • @Firestorm808 

      being called omnipotent is just not enough proof that it means strongest in the verse and assuming omnipotence meaning strongest in regard to everything in Ben 10 verse is just speculation really as there would require more evidences and proofs than just being called omnipotent very vaguely and its heavily lacking context and we cant assume they are above Chrono navigator just because of omnipotence statement/greatest statement I am sure we never put someone into solid tier with such vague statements so I still fail to understand that how this is enough to put someone into solid tier hence I am ready for compromise instead of flat out Low 2-C so Low 2-C possibly 2-B seems fine enough because while it isn't enough proofs but it can still be acknowledged so possibility 2-B is fine

      So no matter who says omnipotence statement it doesn't make the case better because context is still 0 and it isn't been given enough explanation or clarification 

      "Being able to do anything" is flat out wrong not only has Celestialpaiens not shown to be able to do anything it is being directly contradicted with Celestialpaiens not being able to control mana directly,not able to survive in Valdis planet alone,have shown no means or statements of affecting higher dimensions in any way then we have to throw this statement out as something as vague as "being able to do anything" should never be used because of it having no context nothing at all 

      Show has always been using word omnipotence literally everywhere which is further proof with accompanying statement of "being able to do anything" which is what omnipotence should be able to do anything.I am not sure about you but the way I have been seeing questions and author answer its based around the implication of omnipotence in literal sense specially like how one of the answers said that they either are omnipotent or not and having Ben dna mixed with Alien X doesn't make him omnipotence just confirms my point that all of the question/answer has been using omnipotence as a literal sense and not as what we guys are intepreting so it shouldn't be used in the way of strongest in the verse because question asked doesn't ask omnipotence in this sense and ask it in the way of literal sense

      My point is that in order to scale there should be established connection between Alien X and Chrono navigator and so far I have seen no such connection with it either with Chrono navigator multiversal destroying power is never in context whenever omnipotence statements are made and even they are made in mind of omnipotence in literal sense

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    • @My Area

      The blog post you are referring to takes place 4 years after the series ended. Also, the answer you are referring to has contradictions to the source material.

      When Ben turns into Alien X, he is genetically a full Celestialsapien. There is no Ben DNA. That's not how the Omnitrix works. His conciousness/mind is added to Serena and Bellicus. The only downside is that instead of 2 heads agreeing, three heads must agree. As Alien X, he is able to fight and defeat another Celestialsapien. There is no significant AP difference.

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can send me a message later if you need my help.

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    • @My area The point about Alien X being susceptible to Anur Vladias really should be ignored, since it contradicts the show. In the episode "Mystery Incorporeal" Ghostfreak is attacked by Darkstar (ya know, the guy whose entire shtick is he can absorb mana and life energy) and he's unaffected by the blast and even goes so far as to say "Mana is life energy Mike. I'm a ghost, so I don't have any to absorb." I'm not sure how this is treated here since I'm rather new, but its either we take the entire statement to be false, or just the part about Ghostfreak. And before anyone says "Oh, Anur Vladias must just have greater mana absorption." That doesn't matter since no matter how powerful your mana absorption is, it won't do anything to someone with NO mana.

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    • Minor point, but in the last thread someone mentioned that when Alien X recreated the universe, he would have also recreated the Chrono Navigator as well, which one could possibly interpret as Alien X being 2-B via creating a 2-B weapon.

      If this argument isn't accepted, I'd likely vote for 'Possibly 2-B'. Perhaps reword it to being Likely 2-B since there's a lot of evidence for 2-B.



      As well, ProfessorKakui seems adamant on refusing the notion that power means power. Your argument against the character statement basically boiled to 'the characters might not have been referring to sheer Attack Potency when referencing power', however context-wise it seems that they were.

      Aggregor is a character whose race (Osmosians) is solely focused around absorbing and gaining physical power. The entire first half of Aggregor's scheme was him amassing the AP of 5 Andromedan aliens. Aggregor's race is also notable and commended for going power-crazy(in terms of sheer destructive capability). It has shown multiple times in the series-through the form of Kevin-that Osmosians, when absorbing large amounts of power, tend to lose their sanity and become driven on obtaining even more power. So, yes, context would suggest that Aggregor refers to AP.

      (As a minor point, Ben 10 villains tend to refer to power in destructive capabilities very consistently; the majority of Ben's recurring foes are looking for direct, destructive power: The Incursions with their mutant Toku'stars come to mind, as well as Malware trying to acquire enough power to destroy the Galvan Planet (and their moon) again. Vilgax also wanted to take over the universe with 'the Power of the Omnitrix', and in a visualization of this ambition, we saw a scene of several aliens taking over a massive army through their sheer strength.)

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    • @Professor

       

      >See above. Nothing from whats shown in that episode shows there's more than a 1000 worlds. It is pure speculation.

      All the earths Paradox showed represent 1 timeline each/ a paralel universe, and clearly there are more than 1000 earths.

      > ...............the entirety of our Tiering System completely disagrees with you. It is very possible to destroy space-time through pure attack potency without using space-time hax.  

      It doesnt say that anywere on that page, and even goes as far to say that it's impossible to quantify the diffreence between universal+ and multiversal. Feel free to quote the part  that says otherwise.

      Space-time can be destroyed through pure power without the need of hax. Simple as that.

      I would like a source of this.  I would also like a source showing concepts like casuality can be destroyed with AP alone.  

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    • @Ayewale Alien X couldn't have recreated the Chrononavigator because its always with Paradox, who wasn't present at the time of the universe's destruction. Even if he was, he's shown he can escape that level of destruction using his own pocket dimensions.

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    • DragonicDoom wrote:
      @Ayewale Alien X couldn't have recreated the Chrononavigator because its always with Paradox, who wasn't present at the time of the universe's destruction. Even if he was, he's shown he can escape that level of destruction using his own pocket dimensions.

      Ah, thank you for catching my mistake. I may have confused Chrono-Navigator with Chronosapien Time Bomb, so I apologize.

      However, the CTB is a 2-B weapon that Alien X recreated.

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    • I misread CTB as CBT

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    • If we give a possibly/likely 2B to Alien X solely based on the statement being made in UA and the Chrono Navigator being established as a 2B device in OV, then fine I guess, didn't think you'd actually need really hard proof that something isn't retconned but ok, also I kinda addressed this before but Paradox did say in his debut episode that he and Ben will fight together to save the universe, which happened during "Ben Again", which is when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B device.

      As for Celestialsapiens getting the Chrono Navigator's hax abilities based on the strongest power statement, I'll drop that since this leaves too much wiggle room for them to get other hax abilities which they have no relation to in the first place.

      We should preferably TLDR this then and get some more admin input.

      As for the standards for what classifies as destruction via hax abilities and what via AP there should probably be made a general thread about since there is other stuff like timeline or multiversal erasure (which is a hax ability) still getting a tier and there is just not enough clarity regarding this, at least that's what I think.

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    • Greenshifter wrote:
      If we give a possibly/likely 2B to Alien X solely based on the statement being made in UA and the Chrono Navigator being established as a 2B device in OV, then fine I guess, didn't think you'd actually need really hard proof that something isn't retconned but ok, also I kinda addressed this before but Paradox did say in his debut episode that he and Ben will fight together to save the universe, which happened during "Ben Again", which is when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B device.

      As for Celestialsapiens getting the Chrono Navigator's hax abilities based on the strongest power statement, I'll drop that since this leaves too much wiggle room for them to get other hax abilities which they have no relation to in the first place.

      We should preferably TLDR this then and get some more admin input.

      As for the standards for what classifies as destruction via hax abilities and what via AP there should probably be made a general thread about since there is other stuff like timeline or multiversal erasure (which is a hax ability) still getting a tier and there is just not enough clarity regarding this, at least that's what I think.

      There's also the irrefutable fact that he created the CTB, a 2-B weapon, so he should be 2-B; worst-case, Likely 2-B.

      I've never seen anyone say that the Celestialsapiens should get the abilities of the Chrono Navigator; that's never said or implied in the series at all.

      Anyways, as a regard to what 'Destruction' means in this context, I made a post about it a few posts above explaining what exactly Destruction usually refers to in Ben 10.

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    • @Ayewale I was arguing so based on Alien X's hax > Chrono Navigator's hax if you follow the greatest power refers to hax logic.

      It could be that CTB can also be programmed to blow up a timeline instead of the multiverse so it's power could vary.

      Sure the end result is the same but it's the method that we're arguing, also Chrono Navigator might be the exception.

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    • Just commenting here to say that I agree fully with Proposal 1. So you can count my vote in for that.

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    • I dont know about creating 2B weapon means that Alien X is 2B specially as how Porunga is atleast 5B and not 4B for bringing Gohan back or High 4C for bringing Goten or Trunks back so I think Alien X shouldn't be 2B for bringing chronosapien time bomb back

      @Firestorm808,Dragonic Doom

      Sorry,I have exams so I will reply to you when I am free

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    • @My area, he basically only has to transport them from the afterlife to earth. If the CTB was a 2B character with 2B AP and durability and Alien X recreated him (this would immediately make the Anihilaarg 2B or give it existence erasure btw) then Alien X would be 2B for this no questions asked. With a bomb that does not vary in energy and has 2B AP then it would be pretty straightforward 2B as well. With a bomb with a most likely varying energy output, which might only cover the earth (in multiple timelines) and might work via existence erasure and we're not even 100% sure if it was in Ben Prime's timeline during the destruction of the universe and even if it was, we're not even sure if it even got destroyed in the first place… things tend to get a little complicated...

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    • @SuperAPM

      Can you elaborate on your stance?

      @My Area @Greenshifter @Ayewale

      It's consistantly stated that everything in the universe was destroyed and that he recreated everything.

      I can't say I understand how using Creation to make something powerful from nothing doesn't scale you to it. I tried looking for the rule but couldn't find it. 

      At the moment, Hugo (OFF) scales to his creations: 

      Attack Potency: Unknown physically. At least Solar System level, likely higher via hax. (Though not noteworthy physically, Hugo created both The Batter and The Queen. It should be noted that Hugo seemingly either can't use his powers for fighting or has no desire to)

      Durability: At least Solar System level, likely higher (Survived several hits from The Batter)

      I don't see why the same doesn't apply to Alien X.

      In regards to Alien X recreating the Chronosapien Time Bomb, this is what was said previously:

      Antvasima: Well, recreating the time bomb with the universe should not scale directly to Alien X himself. Just because humans can build nuclear weapons, it does not mean that we possess such destructive capacities on our own.

      Me: However, humans make items out of already existing materials, outside their innate power.  If the US makes a bomb, they connect pieces of already existing radioactive material which later convert their mass into energy. Alien X made the matter and the energy of the CTB from his own power.

      Antvasima: Well, my impression was that the time bomb is more of a chain reaction kind of device, rather than one of raw power. In any case, I do not think that we can scale between separate storylines that did not incorporate each other in that manner. I very strongly doubt that the writers remotely considered this connection and what it would infer.

      Me: In the same episode that they gave Vilgax the CTB in the past, the episode revolves around the Anihilaarg, which directly connects to So Long and Thanks for the Smoothies and Universe VS Tennyson. The writers wouldn't have fogotten about Ben recreating the universe and everything in it when they put the CTB in the past.

      Antvasima: Building a nuclear weapon does not automatically give you the power of a nuclear weapon, and the same principle holds here.

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    • >unknown physically

      i think you answered your own question. Hugo doesn't scale to his own constructs.

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    • @ZephyrosOmega

      He's still rated 4-B for AP and Durability. In fact, his durability should scale to his physical AP.

      Durability: At least Solar System level, likely higher (Survived several hits from The Batter)

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    • Us building nuclear bombs is a COMPLETELY different comparison, though. Nuclear bombs work because of atoms splitting apart and releasing energy, which is not a process that we are capable of recreating ourselves. Alien X recreating the universe with the CTB would be him recreating the amount of the energy it would potentially create as well.

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    • The way to not scale Alien X from the CTB would be the say that whatever energy the CTB releases 'is beyond' the Ben 10 universe, which makes no sense and is a really vague statement to begin with.

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    • Well I guess an at least low 2C, possibly 2C, likely 2B rating is fine.

      @Firestorm Yes the CTB is probably 2C since the timelines you show are on the upper part of the tree and thus wouldn’t be directly destroyed by the CTB since it only destroys present timelines, not future ones.

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    • @Greenshifter

      The CTB is 2-B. The CTB is directly stated to destroy all other branching timelines save for 1. Paradox even shows all the other timelines getting destroyed to the point of a black void. The metaphorical tree was cut down to 1 timeline. Even Ben 10k's timeline was destroyed. The tree is just a representation of how the branching works.

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    • We shouldn't derail this thread talking about the CTB's rating. I think that's a bit off-topic since it's an issue that has been resolved a while ago.Though it does relate to the claim that Alien should scale to the CTB.

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    • Wait I thought everyone agreed that the Chrono Navigator was way higher into tier 2 than the CTB, also I already conceded to likely 2B so we only need admin input now. Also Kukui is the one who put cosmology in the OP.

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    • Does the Chrono Navigator > CTB thing even matter in this particular topic? If it does, then I'm very sure we've already said it's stronger.

      Anyways. I'm hanging on 'Most likely 2-B'. I'd argue it's just outright 2-B.

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    • @Greenshifter

      The difference between the the Chrono Navigator and the Time Bomb is 1 timeline. Going from all timelines to none and all timelines to one.

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    • I’m gonna make a cosmology revision in a few hours, we’ll discuss it there.

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    • Alien_X is 2-B??? Alien_X is above Najilians and they are 26th dimentional Alien_X should be classed at least low 1-C

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    • Sigh... Naljians are low-2C/unknown on here bud, no higher-dimensional feats for them so no 26-dimensional rating.

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    • Najilians are low- 2C???? 😂 Okey I take that as a joke the creator confirmed Alien_X is above 26D+ even if he didn't show any feat, if the creator saied that alien x is 26D+ than he is 😂

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    • @Badrimoine2019

      In the show, Naljians are an unknown amount above 3 spacial dimensions. They only said that there are 26 dimensions that matter, not that they are 26th dimensional. As shown by the Contemelia, being a higher dimensional existance does not make you infinitely powerful by default. I do not recommended using spacial dimensional tiering for the Ben 10 verse.

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    • @Firestorm808 

      Which blog post exactly are you talking about which came 4 years after series ended?

      Honestly the consciousness of Ben being present along with Bellicis and Serena while normal Celestialpaiens doesn't have 3 personality should give hint that omnitrix has altered or change Celestialpaiens dna or part of it in order to incorporate his conciousness not saying that Alien X is weaker because of Ben involvement with Alien X because we don't even hwve proof that adding Ben Dna to Celestialpaiens would make them weaker or mixing their dna with other dna would make it weaker at all but anyway my point of refering to that answer wasn't this my point was that author and the people who are asking questions are using omnipotence in a literal sense so we cant really change how omnipotence should be intepreted in Q/A session because they haven't asked that question using context which we are using in this wiki

      I dont know about how we use scaling in relation to creation too and I have no idea about Hugo OFF or his verse but what makes it complicated is that if Chronosapien bomb was really destroyed by the Annihilarg then the 2B energy should have been radiating and should have wiped out all the timelines except 1 timeline anyway because Annihilarg only destroyed physical body of Chronosapien bomb so 2B energy should still be coming out but it didn't happen because of 1 reason and I know it doesn't look like a proper argument but hear me out is because Chronosapien bomb didn't exists when Annihilarg destroyed the whole universe and Chronosapien bomb came out 2 years later so Chronosapien bomb concept wasn't even there back in 2012 even though in verse it was there for 200 to 300 years but I am pretty neutral in this regard and I wouldn't mind if Alien X was 2B because of recreating Chronosapien bomb because its more solid than strongest/omnipotent/can do anything statement etc

      @DragonicDoom

      How was it contradicted though?

      I dont understand how this really link with Alien X but Alien X or Celestialpaiens should have mana but they cant control it and have to rewrite mana in order to control it

      @Greenshifter

      But doesn't Porunga also have to make bodies for them so if he made bodies for Goten,Trunks as well as Gohan so he needed to create body with their power too as when they came back their power was unaffected so by that logic Porunga should also be 4B for creating Gohan



      But I am nuetral with Alien X recreating Chronosapien time bomb thing and it would be fine if he is 2B because of this 

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    • @My area

      Which blog post exactly are you talking about which came 4 years after series ended?

      http://manofaction.tv/blog/sunday-funday-for-the-fans/

      Honestly the consciousness of Ben being present along with Bellicis and Serena while normal Celestialpaiens doesn't have 3 personality should give hint that omnitrix has altered or change Celestialpaiens dna or part of it in order to incorporate his conciousness.

      Considering that humans can have multiple personality disorder or Dissociative identity disorder (which is psycological and not genetic) and that Celestialsapiens go from one to 2 personalities, having 3 personalities in Celestialsapiens shouldn't be caused by DNA changes.

      If Chronosapien bomb was really destroyed by the Annihilarg then the 2B energy should have been radiating and should have wiped out all the timelines except 1 timeline anyway because Annihilarg only destroyed physical body of Chronosapien bomb so 2B energy should still be coming out but it didn't happen

      Matter and energy are one and the same. The Anihilarg creates and erases a space-time continuum. Taking into account the Reality Warping, all matter and energy in the universe being erased makes sense. Since the Bomb didn't detonate and destroy everything, the quantity of energy inside the bomb was just erased till it was all gone. Think of it like the bomb getting erased Thanos style.

      I dont understand how this really link with Alien X but Alien X or Celestialpaiens should have mana but they cant control it and have to rewrite mana in order to control it.

      As I said before, nothing in the show suggests the inability to manipulate mana. A writer could say that Ben is allergic to peanuts, but unless the show suggests that he is, we can't really use it.

      But doesn't Porunga also have to make bodies for them so if he made bodies for Goten,Trunks as well as Gohan so he needed to create body with their power too as when they came back their power was unaffected so by that logic Porunga should also be 4B for creating Gohan

      In Dragon Ball, a person's strength is tied to their Ki which is part of their soul. It's the reason why Goku can train to get stronger when he was dead. When he is revived, he gets his body back and enhances it with his ki/soul.

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    • @Firestorm808 

      Oh I see so how does it coming after 4 years of series ending have to do with anything?

      That is having multiple personality not conciousness which are 2 different things and Ben acts like 3rd conciousness inside Alien X as you yourself has used the word consciousness to describe 3rd voice ie Ben and Celestialpaiens don't work like humans nor do they have multiple personality disorders or disease such as that as it hasn't been stated by any writer or show at all

      Wait what? Matter and Energy are 2 completely different things..and then comes my question how would 2-B energy within Chronosapien bomb be destroyed by reality wrapping when none of Annihilarg haxes or ap is 2-B to begin with,it isn't possible for destroying 2-B energy using Low 2-C hax or ap

      Nothing in the show suggests that he can use mana either so writer statement takes priority over absence of visual proof thaf they are can manipulate mana and I will say it again being able to do anything isn't proof that they can manipulate mana

      His body was kept in Afterlife though hence he was able to train and was able to grow stronger and his body was kept 2 times when he died which is that when Enma kept his body so he could train for the future battle with Nappa and Vegeta and second time when he died against Cell was where body was also kept and he along with select few other were able to keep their body and participate in the tournament in Afterlife 

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    • @My Area

      In general, consciousness are of the mind, not the body. The Omnitrix turns the user into an exact genetic duplicate. Nothing in the series suggests Ben's human DNA being a part of the transformation.

      Matter is made up of energy. E=mc^2 The Bomb and it's energy doesn't have resistance to reality warping or time manipulation. It's the same reason Clockwork could time manipulate the CTBs energy. Hacks and lack of resistance to said hacks.

      I'm just going by our site rules when it comes to writer statements. Not to mention Azmuth says that Alien X can do anything right in front of Gwen who can manipulate mana.

      If they keep their bodies in the afterlife, then Shenlong doesn't recreate their bodies. Goku and company just lose the halo and is considered "alive."

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    • @Firestorm808 

      True they are mostly of mind not body but since it was never explained that whether adding Ben consciousness to Celestialpaiens like Alien X would change anything however omnitrix contains dna of the aliens like Celestialpaiens and Ben conciousness is being created exclusively to Alien X so its safe enough to say that Ben does have involement with dna hence author explanation can be used and it was being used for the term "omnipotent" literally anyway so that was the my point to bring up to prove that they dont use omnipotence in the context that we do so we shouldn't change the meaning of the word in Q/A session 

      Matter is made up of energy true but those 2 are different things and E=Mc^2 is equivalence between mass and energy and conversion of mase to energy and vice versa not saying that both are same though. So what you mean is that Annihilarg with Low 2-C hax would still be able to wipe out 2-B level of energy? Even though energy is far greater so more energy would be required by Annihilarg to wipe out energy of CTB in short Annihilarg needs to be 2-B in order to wipe out 2-B level of energy but if you are saying its reality wrapping then you mean it bypasses energy resistance?

      Absorption doesn't depend on AP usually and Clockwork only reversed CTB affect back so it would be time reversal 

      Only Goku was able to keep the body exclusively because he needed was training and to defeat Saiyans and Vegeta was given the body in order for merging with Goku in order to defeat Buuhan so as far as I know eveeyone who died due to Earth being destroyed by Kid Buu wasn't given the body so Porunga had to bring back the Earth along with the bodies in order to transfer their soul from Afterlife to the body so Porunga should be 4-B

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    • Porunga creates 4-B ki from nothing?

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    • Porunga formed Gohan body and then sent his soul from Afterlife to Living world so while he didn't create ki from nothingness he created body with 4-B level of ki in it so he should be 4-B then I guess

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    • Cosmology revision + CTB + 2A Chrono Navigator can be discussed here

      I have some evidence for the Anihilaarg being 2B so if you guys want I can add it to the OP.

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    • If Porunga didn't create the ki and body from nothing, wouldn't it be considered resurrection by restoring the destroyed body?

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    • Never mind I realized since Kid Buu is weaker than Gohan so his blast wouldn't be able to destroy his body so Porunga only reformed this body so instead I would make the argument that Porunga is High 4-C for bringing back destroyed Goten and Trunks body which has High 4-C level of ki so it would he resurrection for Gohan since his body should be only one to remain intact after Kid Buu blast but not for other as they must have been vaporized due to Kid Buu attack 

      @Greenshifter

      Sure I would like to see about the evidences of 2-B for Anihilaarg so please add it in OP

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    • Don't have much time rn, will add it later.

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    • @My Area

      If Clockwork can reverse the CTB with ease, the Anihalarg should be able to erase it as well.

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    • Do we consider the Anihilaarg to have existence erasure then?

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    • You guys really love to downplay Alien_X.lol

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    • Dude Alien X has been low-2C for the past few years and we literally spent a 1000 messages discussing an upgrade for him. In order for stuff to get accepted on here it needs to be made crystal clear as that is the only way to be reliable. The Q&A is not clear at all and it contradicts itself when it states that Celestialsapiens cannot tank multiversal destruction which a 26-dimensional being obviously could. Also please stop derailing this thread since we are only allowed to talk about the OP because past threads have been humungously derailed.

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    • And the creator confirmed that alien x is 26D+ wherever you guys like it or not

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    • The creator also confirmed Alien X can not survive multiversal destruction which is 4D AP in that very same Q&A.

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    • The creator also said that what matters more than writer statements is what you see in the show since what writers say can just not be true most of the time.

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    • No Alien_X can't survive à omniverse destruction not à multiverse also someone is 26D doesn't mean he can survive an omniverse destruction lol 😂 and power isn't always equal to durability so i would say that alien x is low 1-c but not 2-B just no 😂

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    • Also CPs best feat is that they rewrote all ben 10 franchise which contains 26 dimensions or more

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    • Wank

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    • Anyways as to not derail this thread any further, you can say what you want to say regarding Alien X on my wall, K?

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    • You are just saying that because you think I'm wanking alien x lol

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    • I also offered the same to someone who thought we were wanking him. Also this is really not the thread to discuss this, you can make your own content revision thread, but you won't be the first so you better give some very good arguments on there.

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    • @My Area I edited the OP of the other thread with my reasoning for the Anihilaarg.

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    • Hhhh okey again Alien_X best feat is that he rewrote all ben 10 franchise which contains 26 dimensions and its enough proof to put him at low 1-c. Ben was able to break a extra dimensional barrier with just a fraction of alien x power :https://youtu.be/Z2Tv_bRH17E

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    • i swear i encountered you on youtube

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    • This should be in it's own CRT @Badrimoine2019. Not to be that guy, but MAN are you derailing the thread.

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    • yea lets try not to derail it, like the other thread. or just ask the mods and admins to remove derailing posts.

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    • @Greenshifter

      Existance Erasure is a subcatagory of Reality Warping. The Anihilarg is shown to do said erasure.

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    • @Bad Being X dimensional on its own no longer qualifies for a tier, you need to actually have it established first that higher dimensions in your verse leads to infinite jumps in power

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    • It seems that you didn't watch Ben 10 at all

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    • The rules of dimensional tiering varies across different series. As such, there is no default power of being higher dimensional.

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    • Firestorm808 wrote: @Greenshifter

      Existance Erasure is a subcatagory of Reality Warping. The Anihilarg is shown to do said erasure.

      Then I can go argue on a thread against Beerus that if Beerus pulls a hakai, X just stands there?

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    • Yes. Alien X has resistance to Existence Erasure by not getting erased by the Anihilarg. Everything in the universe turned into nothing except him.

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    • Some people could argue that the Annihilarg was operating off pure AP, as it's constantly described as 'Destroying' the universe. I already posted about how Ben 10 characters, when saying something is destroyed, usually refer to sheer AP.

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    • @Firestorm808 

      It just reversed the effects of CTB and sucked it back in by reversing the time not actually countering it and Annihilarg cannot destroy CTB because its Low 2-C and doesn't have enough energy to counter 2-B level of energy produced by CTB

      Why is Annihilarg destruction list as Existence erasure? It was destroying the universe the same way as Goku and Beerus were doing so that should be AP feat not existence erasure feat

      @Greenshifter

      Ok I will check though I am bit busy so I might not be able to comment

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    • @My area

      So you agree that the CTB is susceptible to Time manipulation.

      The argument is that the 2-B levels of energy are still susceptible to hacks, bypassing any conventional durability.

      If an object is reduced to nothing, that is textbook Existance Erasure.

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    • Disagree fra

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    • @Andy Can we put existence erasure on the profile of the Anihilaarg and give Alien X a resistance to existence erasure?

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    • Firestorm808
      Firestorm808 removed this reply because:
      retract.
      10:50, November 5, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • @Firestorm808 

      Yes I do agree that time reversal has nothing to do with strength of CTB

      Yes 2-B level of energy is suspectable to hax but Annihilarg was expanding its energy in order to reduce the universe into nothingness which again means reducing it to atoms or subatomic particles so what Annihilarg did with Low 2-C energy is AP feat not existence erasure and Low 2-C energy cant compete with 2-B level of energy by CTB at all

      Object being reduced to nothing doesn't mean it cease to exists rather that its reduced to atoms or subatomic particles and is too small for our eyes to see otherwise by that logic all the characters who can destroy or bust the universe should be given existence erasure because it reduces the universe to nothingness or atomic particles 

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    • @My area

      The Anihilaarg creates a universe space-time continuum from nothing and can turn said universe space-time back into nothing, not atomic particles. I meant it when I said it's definition Existence Erasure. The wave of Reality Warping turning everything into literal nothing.

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    • @My Area well only destroying all matter in the universe is only 3A, granted the Anihilaarg doesn’t really have any evidence for being low-2C instead of 3A. It was originally rated as 3A IIRC and got changed to low-2C based on it also being used to create the universe in the final episode, but it’s very possible it only uses 3A power when destroying a universe.

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    • @Firestorm808 

      It can create universe space and time continum into nothing(Low 2-C creation feat) or destroy universe space and time continum into nothing(Low 2-C AP feat) which just means destroying the entire space and time continum and destroying into nothingness means destroying the whole universe space and time into subatomic molecules not removing it from existence Like how a Low 2-C character destroying a timeline would be reducing it to atoms/subatomic particles not removing it from existence so basically Annihilarg is doing what baseline Low 2-C does which is destroying the timeline and I dont think we need to interpret the word nothingness literally here 

      @Greenshifter 

      I dont mind the Low 2-C rating of Annihilarg but thanks for clarifying anyway but my point of bringing Goku and Beerus destroying universe was that they were destroying the matter of entire universe into nothingess which just means reducing it to subatomic particles as we didn't give them existence erasure based on this reason as well as Beerus nullifying the energy into nothingness which we again dont say that Beerus nullifed the energy into non existence so I think we are intepreting the word "nothingness" too literally here b



      I can be wrong regarding this matter so feel free to correct me

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    • Where is it stated the Anihilaarg also destroys time though? I’ve been using this interpretation myself but I’m generally curious if it’s stated anywhere or we just assume it.

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    • I think we use Annihilarg destroying time and space continum is because its destructive power is same as creation power which is creating universe which includes creating space and time continum of a universe so when universe is already there it destroys the entire universe space and time continum instead so its destruction power is same as its creation power

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    • Why are you assuming that destroying space-time turns it into subatomic particles?

      It creates from nothing and turns it back into nothing. It's pretty straight forward.

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    • Just like how we dont assume that destroying space and time continum of a universe means turning it to non existence?

      Same principle applies here and Annihilarg is just doing what Low 2-C character would do which is destroying space and time continum and reducing it to nothingness so we dont give existence erasure to them right? Same should apply here

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    • Space-time by definition is all the matter, space, and time of said timeline. Existence Erasure is specifically a form of Reality Warping.

      Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

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    • Yes?

      Thats true and all but its destroying the entire universe space and time just like how Low 2-C character would do with its AP but we dont give them existence erasure right? Same principle should be applied here because Annihilarg is destroying universe by its AP like a Low 2-C AP of a Low 2-C character

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    • @My Area @Firestorm, the CTB can also be programmed to destroy only 1 timeline and we see with Maltruant that an Anihilaarg can be programmed, so it could be programmed to only destroy space, but create space-time depending on the circumstances.

      Agree that destroying space-time should actually destroy all matter cause no time = no space.

      None of this really matters if the Anihilaarg is 2C tho.

      We should preferably move this discussion to the other thread otherwise Kukui’s going to be pissed.

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    • @Greenshifter 

      Can CTB only destroy 1 timeline though? But Annihilarg creates entire universe from non existence when no universe is there or destroy entire universe to nothingness when universe is there so its pretty much implying Low 2-C here

      So that means that every Low 2-C characters should have existence erasure because they destroy the entire matter and time of a universe so all matter will be destroyed?

      I dont know about 2-C and whenever Annihilarg is mentioned the word universe is only used so its implying Low 2-C rather than 2-C but I will discuss it in the cosmology thread you made

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    • I don't think it's based on normal destruction to nothing but based around Reality Warping to nothing.

      Existence Erasure is the simple power to remove something from existence, leaving nothing behind, a level of destruction beyond incineration, vaporization, and atomization. Rather than just reducing something to its constituent parts, this ability leaves absolutely nothing behind. Powerful enough uses of this ability can even erase the mind and soul, if not more fundamental aspects of one's existence, such as concepts.

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    • Tho i side with just downgrade Alien-x back to low 2-C but i also have nothing against possibly 2-B either.

      So ok then i go with 2nd option.

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    • You guys are big dawnplayers and you keep saying bullshits. Alien_X should not back to low 2-c and he should be even higher than 2-A but its clearly that none of you watched Ben 10 unfortunately

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    • man stop it

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    • @Firestorm808 

      I am confused? How is it based on reality wrapping? Annihilarg destroys the entire universe using Low 2-C level of energy and it should be AP level feat not a reality wrapping feat..

      That was my entire point before..Since Annihilarg destroys the entire universe using normal destruction then it shouldn't be given existence erasure just like how we dont give existence erasure to characters who can destroy entire universe space and time continum using ap

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    • But the Anihalarg does use Reality Warping. Creation and erasure from and to literal nothing is a form of reality warping. How else does it create a universal space-time and it's respective laws of nature? Maltruant even reprogrammed one to make a universe with different laws of reality.

      Reality Warping (sometimes called Reality Alteration or Reality Manipulation) is a term used to describe the ability to manipulate reality itself.

      The ability to change reality into how the person in question sees fit, while ignoring the rules of science. Users can alter any item already considered real. Any decision made in the past, any item ever created, any movement, choice, color, atom, or molecule that exists can be changed. All of existence bends to the imagination of a reality warper. Users can rewrite the laws of physics and then change them back in an instant, universes can bend to the will of a reality warper. Examples include erasing things out of existence, granting wishes, creating universes, creating/altering mattertime manipulationspatial manipulation, etc.

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    • If you put it that way it does sound like it uses the same hax to create and destroy the universe, which should also apply to the Chrono Navigator manipulating and destroying the multiverse, so we basically came full circle here lol and since the universe's destruction via reality warping already scales to the Anihilaarg's AP, destroying the multiverse via space-time manipulation/reality warping should also scale to Chrono Navigator's AP, thus making it irrelevant whether the strongest power statement refers to AP or hax and thus the only thing going for a possibly/likely 2B is the statement being made in UA and the Chrono Navigator only being established as a 2B-device in OV.

      Does everyone agree with this and if so can I TLDR it and ask some admins to comment here?

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    • i agree, and in addition, the Chronosapien Timebomb was shown and stated to literally " erase every timeline and everyone in them from existance". which is definitely also existance erasure, but on a higher scale than the ANihilargh

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    • Badrimoine2019 wrote:
      You guys are big dawnplayers and you keep saying bullshits. Alien_X should not back to low 2-c and he should be even higher than 2-A but its clearly that none of you watched Ben 10 unfortunately

      Bait

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    • @Firestorm808 

      Wait? I thought creating universe space and time would count for creation feat? And I dont understand how destroying universe space and time is reality wrapping and how is it different from any Low 2-C character destroying a universe space and time with ap?

      Did he? If he did then I suppose reality wrapping could work because of different law of Physics 

      So basically Existence erasure is subcategory of reality wrapping?

      @Greenshifter 

      I still dont understand how Annihilarg destroying a universe or Chrono navigator destroying 2-B timelines is hax feat and not ap feat?

      Sorry Firestorm808 and Greenshifter if I am being too annoying with those questions but I am confused 

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    • @My Area no problemo mate, I’ll break it down for you.

      So Maltruant was gonna rewrite the universe to his liking and assumingly make it impossible for someone to stand against him. This is most likely accomplished by reality warping much like The Spear Of Destiny (CW).

      We then assume the Anihilaarg uses a subset of reality warping aka Existence Erasure to destroy the universe, thus making it a hax feat that scales to AP as seen with Dimentio and the Ultimate Annihilator.

      We then assume the Chrono Navigator works the same way but this time via reality warping and space-time manipulation rather than existence erasure.

      This means that Paradox’s greatest power statement, if it refers to hax, implies that Alien X’s space-time manipulation and reality warping is greater than the Chrono Navigator’s STM and RW and thus give him a 2B rating based on that. If everything is done via AP then it’s just a straightforward 2B.

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    • Hold up

      I'm pretty sure the point of the hax argument is that the range of what Alien X can do puts him beyond others, not his sheer power (which of course I don't agree with but whatever), even if we accept the devices as hax, they would be limited in what they can do, and won't invalidate the point if we don't scale to the exact potency of the devices

      However, assuming Celestialsapien's are only referred to as the greatest power because they have good abilities that bypass the need to betraditionally stronger than others is by no means a certain conclusion, which is why I'm only fine with a "low 2-C, possibly 2-B", since that acknowledges the statement referring to raw power as well

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    • So you're basically saying that if the devies are hax and the strongest power statement also refers to hax, this doesn't necessarily mean AX scales above their 2B AP granted by said hax?

      And yeah obviously the interpretation of the greatest power statement referring to raw AP is still the most likely interpretation in my eyes, but even if the devices are hax, they would still need 2B power to execute said hax and thus still scale to AX.

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    • Once we get into multiple timelines, I don't think range is a factor at all. If 2 people have the same type of Reality Warping hacks with the first able to destroy 5 timelines and the second able to destroy 10, the latter would have better/stronger hacks in general instead of just range. The basic requirement is the following:

      2-B: Multiverse level

      Characters who can create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of isolated space-time continua.

      If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use pure AP to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X is referred to have the greatest AP, they are 2-B, and Alien X would scale.

      If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.

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    • Firestorm808 wrote: Once we get into multiple timelines, I don't think range is a factor at all. If 2 people have the same type of hacks but only 1 of them can destroye multiple timelines, the latter would have better/stronger hacks. The basic requirement is the following:

      2-B: Multiverse level

      Characters who can create and/or destroy larger multiverses which comprise from 1001 to any higher finite amount of isolated space-time continua.

      If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use pure AP to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X is referred to have the greatest AP, The are 2-B, and Alien X would scale.

      If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.

      Alien_X should be higher than 2-B
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    • @Bad working on it, there's a thread going on to get him to 2A, after that I'll watch Generator Rex and see what I can get from there, everything at it's time all right?

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    • Greenshifter wrote: @Bad working on it, there's a thread going on to get him to 2A, after that I'll watch Generator Rex and see what I can get from there, everything at it's time all right?

      hmmm i would say low 1-c but I'm fine with 2-A
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    • @Greenshifter 

      Thank you

      Malturent was going to use Annihilarg to rewrite universe? If yes then I agree with reality wrapping 

      So its listed as existence erasure because its going to destroy the whole timeline to nothingness? But isn't Annihilarg doing what a Low 2-C character with AP would do which is destroying a timeline but if Annihilarg has reality wrapping then basically I agree with existence erasure too

      The confusion stems from because we dont know how Chrono navigator is going to destroy timelines is it by space and time manipulation or is it by ap feat? Based on description in the page it sounds like ap feat to me more than hax feat

      If its confirmed that Chrono navigator uses hax to destroy timelines and not ap feat then I no longer disagree with Alien X being 2-B anymore because the strongest statements refers to hax and Chrono navigator destroys timeline with hax so its fine having Alien X as 2-B rating

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    • @My area while the Chrono Navigator is about  to destoy all of existence , portals from the past are opening on Earth in the present.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kZXr6FkUpA 

      Portals from other dimensions are also opening on Earth, which is why you can see Paradox.

      Also some sort of vortex start appearing. This is all clearly hax, and has nothing to do with AP,  this is just before Eon would have accidentaly destroyed all existance had he not been stopped.

      And again, the Chronosapien Timebomb was stated to  erase all timelines except 1 from existance. Which is obviously existance erasure i.e hax

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmK-tDG9948

      Eon used the Chrono Navigator to summon his minions with holes in time that he creates.

      Gwen Tennyson: The holes in time... They're not closing!

      The holes in time then gather to make time warps to other times and dimensions.

      Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!

      Eon: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!

      Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!

      Eon: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!

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    • @Doorinmyhouse 

      Is there evidence that CTB destroying all timelines but 1 is hax feat and not ap feat?

      @Doorinnyhouse and @Firestorm808 

      Oh so that means making holes in the dimensions is actually threatening to destroy the whole existence then if thats the case then I agree to Alien X being scaled above Chrono navigator using hax

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    • If you go to the "hax"  page, you can see one of the subcategories is Void Manipualtion. One of Void Manipulation's subcategories is Existance erasure also known as " Conversion to Nonexistence: , which is exactly what the CTB does. Destroying something from existance is categorised as a hax on this wiki.

      And yea, thats clearly how the Chrono navigator works, as shown in the video.The Chrono Navigator can use holes in dimensions to travel i.e make a portal, but if used incorrectly said holes it makes can destroy all of existance, by destabilizing the timestream.

      The Chrono Navigator can destroy the very concept of time and casuality, meaning it has "conceptual manipulation" , and  casuality manipualtion , both are listed as hax.

      Destroying concepts, casuality or existance is considered  hax according to this wiki page

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    • Doesn't CTB just destroy all of the timelines except 1 timeline? Why are we assuming that it turns almost all the timelines into non existence giving existence erasure? Isn't CTB doing what a AP of 2-B level character of destroying timelines "add infinitum" by attack potency alone does? 

      If thats the case then I agree with its hax and Alien X scaling to Chrono navigator 

      I doubt that it can destroy concepts or casuality its just going to destroy timelines branching off to add infinitum and destroying casualty in this context means destruction of almost all of the timelines as concept manipulation and casuality manipulation isn't listed in Chrono navigator page profile

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    • Eon: You're going to destroy this Ben 10 and his timeline? - Nice.

      Vilgax: On the contrary, the detonation won't even touch this Ben Tennyson or his timeline. It's designed to wipe other timelines from existence.

      This is the only time the word existence is used in "And Then There Were None".

      I do think causality manipulation could be given to the Chrono Navigator, Paradox never uses the word concept IIRC so concept manipulation is pushing it too far.

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    • @MyArea Maltruant rewriting the universe might not be the right choice of words from me since he goes to before the universe is created. However the Contemelia go from dimension to dimension to create universes with presumably different laws of physics and they most likely use an Anihilaarg for it that they reprogram every time. So Malturant was gonna write the universe, not rewrite it but it should still be reality warping.

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    • Doesn't CTB just destroy all of the timelines except 1 timeline? Why are we assuming that it turns almost all the timelines into non existence giving existence erasure?

      Because that's Vilgax said it did, and what we were shown. We arent going to assume the CTB does something that was never mentioned or shown, when we have already been given an explanation as for how it works.

      "I doubt that it can destroy concepts or casuality its just going to destroy timelines branching off to add infinitum and destroying casualty in this context means destruction of almost all of the timelines as concept manipulation and casuality manipulation isn't listed in Chrono navigator page profile"

      This is headcanon, and doesnt have anything to do with what Paradox explained, Paradox who has complete understanding of the space time continuum and cant lie. We arent just going brush off what Paradox said and assume something baseless instead. The wiki isnt always accurate, which is why revision happens all the time and it fails to explain why we should doubt Paradox words.

      By destroying time + casuality, all of existence will cease to exist as well. Which makes sense, considering its primary use is to manipulate time and change the cause of stuff.

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    • @Greenshifter  unless im mistaken, arent casulity and time concepts?

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    • Yes they are, however destroying the concept of time implies that if some Celestialsapiens were to survive the Chrono Navigator's destruction and someone of us comes in and tells them that time is destroyed, they'd have no clue what you're talking about since the very concept of time has never existed. This is not what Paradox means when he says it could destroy all of time and causality itself.

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    • why not? what else would time and causality mean? The Anihilaargh destroyed all of time of 1 universe, which is why Alien X couldnt simply reverse time to reverse its affects. , so I dont see why the Chrono Navigator couldnt do the same but on a higher scale.

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    • Well first off I'd argue that the Anihilaarg only destroyed space-time at a single moment in time since that is what my 2C upgrade for the Anihilaarg is based on.

      Secondly the Chrono Navigator is stated to destroy all timelines and all of time and causality, not erase them.

      Even if we go with the interpretation that the Chrono Navigator erased all of time and causality and all timelines, this does not imply conceptual erasure since you couldn't even create a new multiverse with time without actually thinking about what time should be like and how it should function, since the previous definition of time just got conceptually erased.

      Lastly, all of time only implies that the Chrono Navigator's attack extends throughout all of time and not that it will destroy time itself.

      As for (all of) causality being destroyed, this might actually warrant causality manipulation and very maybe conceptual manipulation if you go via the interpretation that there is no "all of" causality and just the concept of causality itself.

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    • @Greenshifter 

      If thats the case then I agree with the reality wrapping

      @Doorinmyhouse

      Vilgax said that "its designed to wipe other timelines from existence"

      Where does it say existence erasure and how can we be so sure that it means existence erasure and simply not destruction of timelines?I mean is there any proof that it specifically meant existence erasure?

      We have to look at the context here and in this context casualty just meant destruction of all the timelines which are growing add infinitum not actually destroying the casualty and Paradox statement isn't enough we need more proof that it actually affected and destroyed casuality when it exploded in order to give casualty manipulation 

      Destroying of casualty isn't need for destruction for existence just destruction of 2-B timelines is enough for that

      It was destroying the whole existence not the time,the concept of time will still exists whether there is something in existence or not and there is not a single proof of destruction of concept of time 

      Alien X could reverse the effects of Annihilarg since its abilites are much superior but Ben used it to recreate the whole universe nearly the same as previous

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    • @My area

      Vilgax also said "only this timeline will be left intact, so all other[timelines] will cease to exist"

      We literally see Ben tennysons get erased after touching the CTB' explosion with no trace of them left afterwards. What proof do you have that it isnt existance erasure, when we are clearly told it is? Why assume something that was never implied happened instead of what we were told? Occam's razor sys it is existance erasure.

      What context do we have to look at exactly? 

      The Chrono Navigator never exploded, not sure what you are talking about? I think you are confusing the Chrono Navigator with the Chronosapien Timebomb.

      The Anihilaargh creates time within a universe, so it would make perfect sense that it also destroys it. Time didnt exist before the Anihilaargh detonated and became the prime timeline.

      Bellicus and Serena say that it's too late to do anything about the Anihilaargh while it is still destroying the universe, so you are wrong about that. Why would Alien X bother recreating the universe, if he could do something much simpler? Reversing time is much simpler and would have actually saved everyone, instead of letting everyone get killed and then creating an almost exact copy of everything in the universe.

       
      
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      • What do you mean by "single moment in time" ?
      • The Chrono Navigator is never stated to destroy all timelines, at any point. And I never said it could erase anything, you are conflicting the Chrono Navigator with the time bomb.   I'm not arguing all of existance,  or casuality has ever been destroyed in Ben 10, because it hasnt. The CTB only erased all timelines except 1 from existance, it never destroyed any concepts, 


      I'm arguing that Eon almost destroyed all of casuality and time with the Chrono Navigator, because that's what Paradox says would happen had he continuued to use it. 

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    • @Doorinmyhouse

      Doesn't timelines also technically "cease to exist" if its destroyed so what evidence is there that its different from destroying timelines?

      Ben gets destroyed so I dont see how that suggests that he was erased from existence? Because we dont always take the word "ceasing to exists" literally so there would need to be proof that it can destroy something from existence..

      Context regarding Paradox statement of destruction of all timelines which didn't have anything to casualty at all

      Oops sorry I confused chrono navigator with chronosapien time bomb my bad

      Annihilarg creates a timeline in a universe not creating time though time already exists but there was no flow of time hence creation of the universe caused flow of time from past to future I am sure time and timeline are 2 different thing

      They said it was too late to stop it because it was already destroyed they can still stop it by time abilites and superior reality wrapping but however Ben decided to recreate the universe which   is more simpler than reversing time and then recreating the damaged parts

      I dont remember saying "single moment in time" correct me if I am wrong 

      Sorry again my fault I mixed it up,Chrono navigator was stated to destroy all timelines if misused which is what refered by "all of the existence" 

      Destroying the time means destruction of timelines which is what was refered with "all of the existence" not actually destroying concept of time as it has not been establised to affect concepts like time and casualty at all at any episode and it will take more than a casuality statement in order to be accepted since it didn't shown to mess with or affect casuality at any episode at all

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    • @Door Cease to exist does not necessarily imply existence erasure as something that is destroyed via AP in this way also ceases to exist for Vilgax's purposes.

      You have a point with how it's portrayed and how Prime Ben seems to be erased from existence and only his Omnitrix is unaffected and No Watch Ben's arm literally goes through Prime Ben's arm.

      I mean that the Anihilaarg only destroyed the present (and by extension future) and not the past however I am still trying to figure it out myself.

      Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed (earlier on he tells Ben that Eon wants absolute control over all timelines, all alternate realities and Eon was manipulating all of these before he realized he couldn't control them so he decided to blow them up instead)

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    • Summary:

      Anihilarg

      • Creates space-time from nothing and erases them to nothing.
      • Can be programmed to make different laws of physics.
      • Earth is shown to be wiped away, leaving nothing but blackness. When it detonates, you don't see the inside of the Earth as it's being erased. It's as if space itself, and in turn time, is being erased.

      Chronosapien Time Bomb

      • Vilgax: On the contrary, the detonation won't even touch this Ben Tennyson or his timeline. It's designed to wipe other timelines from existence.
      • Vilgax: Only this timeline will be left intact, while all others will cease to exist, so every Ben Tennyson not from this timeline will be destroyed.
      • As Ben Prime is being erased, he phases through No Watch Ben.
      • Timelines are shown disappearing, leaving just a black void.

      Chrono Navigator

      • Eon wants absolute Space-Time Manipulation
      • Professor Paradox: Eon wants nothing less than absolute power over everything all timelines, all alternate realities everything.
      • Professor Paradox: Yes, but in anyone else's hands but mine it could cause irreparable damage to the time-stream or destroy all of time and causality itself. 
      • Eon used the Chrono Navigator to summon his minions with holes in time that he creates.
      • Gwen Tennyson: The holes in time... They're not closing!
      • The holes in time then gather to make time warps to other times and dimensions. (Space-Time Manipulation)
      • Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!
      • Eon: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!
      • Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!
      • Eon: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!
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    • @Greenshifter

      Wait Annihilarg cant destroy the past of the timeline? How I thought Annihilarg has enough power to destroy the entirety of a timeline as its the same power which is used to create timelines from non existence

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    • @My area

      We take the word literally for the same reason we take the word literally when Zeno erases stuff from existances, if nothing suggests otherwise. How are you supposed to prove someone was  erased from existance, if statements and visiuals arent enough? 

      Not sure what your point is with the Anihilargh- part. The Anihilargh doesnt merely create a timeline, time itself didnt exist in the Ben 10 cosmos before the Anihilaargh was used, as shown in the last episode of Omniverse

      Your explanation for why they didnt reverse time doesnt make any sense, if the universe was already destroyed, why didnt they simply reverse time? What would prevent them from reversing time, unless "time" was destroyed as well? Reversing time is much simpler than recreating the entire universe + Ben would still be able to drink his favorite smoothies which he couldnt  do after he recreated the unvierse. I was responding to Greenshifter regarding " single moment of time".

      @Greenshifter he also says "all timelines will be erased from existance" in addition to " cease from existance".

      And if the Anihilaargh only destoryed the futre and present, why didnt past Ben like Mr smothy after he recreated the universe, even though he did before he recreated it?



      I know Paradox said Eon wanted to rule all timelines, but why would he say " all of casuality" / all of time / existnce if he merely meant timelines? Destroying timelines doesnt have anything to do with casuality, as shown when Vilgax did it.

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    • @Firestorm 👌 very nice summary

      @My Area destroying a space-time continuum but characters still being able to travel to the past can happen in fiction. It’s the same energy needed to destroy a timeline tho.

      @Door not sure if the Big Bang irl qualifies for conceptual manipulation, I’d like some clarification on this.

      Vilgax says wiped, not erased. Tho Firestorm’s summary does point to it being existence erasure.

      I think it’s never established whether past Ben likes Mr. Smoothy or not till that episode.

      My biggest evidence relies on a flashback with Big Chill where the old Mr. Smoothy design is shown, but I’m not really sure where to look for it.

      Euhm Vilgax destroyed all timelines except for one tho and I don’t think he destroyed causality. I’m not really sure what the difference is between destroying all of causality and all of time, but if you combine all of time and Eon wanting control over all timelines, you get all timelines that will ever exist, contrary to the CTB which according to me only destroys all present timelines and then let’s causality take care of the future ones. This is also the subject of debate in my other thread.

      I will also watch Generator Rex and include other dimensions like the Null Void in Paradox’s statement but right now only about a hundred dimensions have been mentioned which doesn’t really matter to the Chrono Navigator’s level of 2B.

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    • @Greenshifter in the last episode of Omniverse episode " A new Dawn", we are shown that neither time or space exists before the Anihilaargh detonates. Ben and Rook chase Maltruent to the beginning of time, it's even shown that Maltruent is unable to use his time powers because time doesnt exist at that point. Teh Anihilaargh creates time and space, so it makes perfect sense that it can destroy both as well.

      And again I never claimed the timebomb destroyed casuality, you are right, that didnt happen. Im saying Eon almost accidentally destroyed casuality with the Chrono Navigator, a different weapon altogether.

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    • @Door agreed but characters like God (Lucifer TV Series) don’t get conceptual manipulation for creating the universe so the Anihilaarg wouldn’t get it either. Erasing space-time tho sure but that’s not conceptually erasing.

      Chrono Navigator is in the same boat but maybe it can get causality manipulation for destroying causality.

      I misunderstood your Vilgax reference and indeed destroying timelines does not equal destroying causality.

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    • @Greenshifter okay maybe lets just ignore the conceptual bit for now, but still, creating and destroying an universe and its time is considered hax, which was my main point. It even has reality warping as one of its abilities on its profile page. 

      And yea Chrono Naviagor should have causality manipalation, and it also has reality destruction i.e reality warping listed as one of its abilities. So its multiversal power was already listed as hax. 

      Ben 10 has 2 multiversal weapon that we know for a fact work entirely on hax yet are considered less hax than Alien X/ The Omnitrix. Meaning even if the "most powerful" statement was regarding hax only, Alien X should still scale to both weapons.

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    • Yes I'll TLDR all this later and get some staff input.

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    • Summary:

      The Anihilaarg and Chronosapien Time Bomb get existence erasure based on Firestorm's summary (8 messages above this one) and every Celestialsapien gets a resistance to existence erasure based on Alien X being unaffected by the Anihilaarg's existence erasure.

      The Anihilaarg, CTB and Chrono Navigator work via hax as detailed in Firestorm's summary which scales to their AP.

      Based on Paradox stating that the Forge of Creation is the universe's greatest power, every Celestialsapien scales above the Chrono Navigator which is 2B, independent of whether the statement refers to hax (the method used for the destruction) or AP (the destruction itself/the energy needed for the destruction).

      The Chrono Navigator could get causality manipulation based on Paradox stating that in anyone's hand but him, it could destroy all of time and causality itself.

      Thus the only thing going for a downgrade to at least Low 2-C, likely/possibly 2B is Paradox's strongest power statement being made in Ultimate Alien while the Chrono Navigator is only established as a 2B-device in Omniverse. I will however post my rebuttal to this under this message.

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    • My rebuttal to the timing of the greatest power statement:

      First of all: we do not assume something to be retconned unless it is explicitly shown.

      Second of all: the statement was only made only 2 years before the Chrono Navigator was established as a 2B-device which is not that long.

      Third of all: Kukui stated this:

      It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result.

      DC however is way more inconsistent than Ben 10, has multiple independent writers, while Man Of Action is always involved in Ben 10 and the time gap is presumably less than this DC case.

      Fourth of all: Man Of Action does think about the destructive capabilities of whatever device Paradox made as seen here, his entropy pump that he made back in the 50's could destroy reality for a distance of several lightyears. The Chrono Navigator was made at least 100000 years after this and after he gained complete understanding of the space-time continuum and this was all established in AF and UA, so the Chrono Navigator being a 2B-device in Omniverse is only a logical extension from this.

      Fifth of all:

      From the episode "Paradox":

      Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

      Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

      Ben and Paradox working together to save the entire universe (well actually multiverse or more) happened in Ben Again, which is the episode when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B-device.

      TLDR; Alien X should stay at 2B, if my rebuttal is not convincing enough then I am fine with at least Low-2C, likely 2B.

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    • I'm fine with P2

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    • @Dragon could you specify whether you prefer a likely or a possibly and if it's based on Kukui's hax argument or the timing of the statement (because all universal/multiversal weapons would become hax-based and thus Alien X would still scale above them)?

      Changing nothing is also an option btw.

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    • Greenshifter wrote: My rebuttal to the timing of the greatest power statement:

      First of all: we do not assume something to be retconned unless it is explicitly shown.

      Second of all: the statement was only made only 2 years before the Chrono Navigator was established as a 2B-device which is not that long.

      Third of all: Kukui stated this:

      It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result.

      DC however is way more inconsistent than Ben 10, has multiple independent writers, while Man Of Action is always involved in Ben 10 and the time gap is presumably less than this DC case.

      Fourth of all: Man Of Action does think about the destructive capabilities of whatever device Paradox made as seen here, his entropy pump that he made back in the 50's could destroy reality for a distance of several lightyears. The Chrono Navigator was made at least 100000 years after this and after he gained complete understanding of the space-time continuum and this was all established in AF and UA, so the Chrono Navigator being a 2B-device in Omniverse is only a logical extension from this.

      Fifth of all:

      From the episode "Paradox":

      Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

      Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

      Ben and Paradox working together to save the entire universe (well actually multiverse or more) happened in Ben Again, which is the episode when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B-device.

      TLDR; Alien X should stay at 2B, if my rebuttal is not convincing enough then I am fine with at least Low-2C, likely 2B.

      lol someone must be dumb to put alien x at low 2-c and no he is even higher than 2-B even the creator confirmed that alien x is a extra dimensional beigin and he is not bound by dimentions alien x is easily 5D+ or even more lol 😂
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    • @DarkDragon Professor's argument that "greatest power " doesnt refer to attack potency but only hax, doesnt matter, because both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB  are considered inferior to Alien X and only uses hax to destroy the multiverse, thus Alien X should scale even if the statements regarding the "greatest power in the universe" only refer to hax.

      @Greenshifter In the episode after Eon almost destroys all of reality, Max states the omnitrix is the most powerful weapon in the universe. Max was also present when Eon was tearing reality apart.  

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    • @Door Max doesn't remember the events of "Ben Again" tho sadly enough because everyone's memory (probably not Paradox's) got erased at the end of the episode, also Max's universe might actually mean universe and not multiverse because he is not as knowledgeable as Paradox.

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    • Honestly how is the "being the greatest power" statement being fucking treated as not AP? It's a plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement that nothing directly contradicts in the entire series.

      Not once is Alien X ever shown to struggle with any given task the moment he is out, the one exception being other Celestialsapiens.

      Reality warping when done to such a massive extent absolutely should count as AP, and if his reality warping is stated to be a greater power than any, even the Chrono Navigator, then he is qualitatively superior to it's capabilities, PERIOD. This isn't wiki policy, this is just basic logic.

      Unless for special, EXTREMELY specific circumstances, you can't have something be called more powerful than something else in regards to how they can affect the world and have said thing then be argued to NOT be as powerful.

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    • @DarkDragonMedeus

      Thank you for replying. Can you elaborate on that? Considering the lack of retcons and the consistancy of the statements, the evidense points to Celestialsapiens to being a solid 2-B. What's keeping you from agreeing to a solid rating?

      @Crabwhale

      Thank you for your input.

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    • @Greenshifter yea you're right about that, But Celesitalsapiens are also stated to be omnipotent even in Omniverse, by a Galvan nonetheless.

      @Crabwhale I agree , furhtermore the Chrono Navigator being stated to be able to destroy all of reality, is the reason why it has  "Reality destruction" on its wiki page. Reality destruction is a type of reality warping, so it doesnt matter if greatest power refers to "attack potency" or "hax", Alien X still scales..

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    • I agree with crabwhale.

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    • Doorinmyhouse wrote: @Greenshifter yea you're right about that, But Celesitalsapiens are also stated to be omnipotent even in Omniverse, by a Galvan nonetheless.

      @Crabwhale I agree , furhtermore the Chrono Navigator being stated to be able to destroy all of reality, is the reason why it has  "Reality destruction" on its wiki page. Reality destruction is a type of reality warping, so it doesnt matter if greatest power refers to "attack potency" or "hax", Alien X still scales..

      well celestialsapiens are stated to be omnipotent but they are not truly omnipotent. They are nigh omnipotent
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    • @Firestorm, I thought the compromise I agreed with was At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B based on what Andy proposed. I just personally thought he made the most sense, didn't quite have enough time to go over the entire thread.

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    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: @Firestorm, I thought the compromise I agreed with was At least Low 2-C, possibly 2-B based on what Andy proposed. I just personally thought he made the most sense, didn't quite have enough time to go over the entire thread.

      he is not low 2-c i don't know why you guys keep only talking about the chrono navigator or the chronosaipian time bomb while alien x showed better feats than that lol 0and alien x should be higher than 2-B lol
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    • @DarkDragonMedeus

      According to your replies on the thread, you thought Andy's reasoning for the 2-B rating made sense, but it wasn't until much later that Andy mentioned a possible compromise.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3504047

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    • Badrimoine2019 wrote: he is not low 2-c i don't know why you guys keep only talking about the chrono navigator or the chronosaipian time bomb while alien x showed better feats than that lol 0and alien x should be higher than 2-B lol

      Because this thread is only about scaling to the Chrono Navigator and because neither the Contemelia, nor the Naljians are accepted as higher-dimensional beings on this site due to lack of feats, making scaling to the Chrono Navigator his best feat.

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    • Very sorry everyone. Ive had to step off of the wikia for a little bit to focus on schoolwork that ive been behind on, so I had to step away from this for a while. I've skimmed through this and I can see a lot has been said here, including this that are off-topic. So I will reply to stuff that I think directly responds to my OP.

      Rebuttals

      >If you watch the clip and see the changing camera angles, the clip shows that each white circle and dot are other universes. Why would a map of infinitely branching timelines show random stars or galaxies in the background? There's not just 20-ish universes in the clip.

      You act like space isn't apart of a map that shows something on a cosmic scale. Just because the map is being used to explain the branching timelines to Ben does not mean that each random dot is suddenly a random universe. In fact, let me ask you this then. If those dots in the background suddenly meant they were other universes, why would Paradox's map present to ben different earths? That would be pretty uneccessary to show if the map was already depicting alternate realities in the way you argue it is. Even if it's a possibility, it's not outright proven to be the case here and we need concrete evidence of this being such. Not pure speculation. 

      >We are talking about the Chrono Navigator here. All it does are very powerful hax which give it the AP rating. Dimensional Travel, Time Travel, Time Manipulation, Multiverse Travel, Reality Destruction (Reality Warping). In what way has the Chrono Navigator ever done something not through said listed abilities.

      Again, stop taking one thing and equating it to something entirely different. The Chrono Navigator has those haxes because of it's control over universes and timelines. Flat out destroying the Multiverse is a completely different feat. With the logic you guys are using here, you might as well argue that any character with a plethora of hax abilities is only rated a certain tier through those hax abilities instead of raw power. And that is also very incorrect.

      You can have hax abilities and do feats through destructive power, like many of our characters are rated here to do. I don't see how this is difficult to understand.

      >The root that I'm trying to get at is the belief that the Celestialsapiens's "greatest" and "Omnipotent" power that "can do anything" is limited to just Reality Warping and is below the Chrono Navigator. "Omnipotent" and "can do anything" has been accepted as being the strongest in the verse and doing any feat portrayed in the series.

      ...This is absolutely not true.

      First of all, just because it was accepted before doesn't mean its correct, things are always subject to change here and this is no different. Second of all, this is like the 10th time I had to explain this. "Omnipotence" and "can do anything" are nothing but incredibly vague claims that have no context behind them as to what they constitute, especially the former. When someone is claimed to be "Omnipotent", it literally only means that they have a god-like power at their disposal. Even if you wanted to argue this had any actual importance here, "Omnipotence" still doesn't automatically equal raw strength. It can be either that or a hax ability that works on a scale far above the norms of their respective universe without actually being stronger than them.

      "Omnipotence" and "Can do anything" are as vague as they can get without any defined context surrounding the claims. People need to stop repeating this argument until something new comes along with it.

      >Azmuth says that they can do anything, and Paradox calls them Omnipotent in Ultimate Alien. Ben Again in Omniverse airs, and the Chrono Navigator shows being able to destroy the Multiverse. Viewers wonder if Celestialsapiens are still considered Omnipotent, so they ask. Matt Wayne once again states that they are omnipotent and that they can do anything. Again, Omnipotence and doing anything refers to the above context. Therefore, he is saying that Celestialsapiens can do what the Chrono Navigator does.

      This is also very wrong. See above for the entire "omnipotence" bit of your argument. And even then, just because Celestialsapiens are still claimed to be omnipotent while the series shows a Multiverse ending weapon does not at all mean Celestialsapiens can do anything the weapon can. Celestialsapiens and the Chrono Navigator are never even directly compared to each other in the first place. You are taking 2 entirely different things and assuming they are put in the same boat as each other all because of a vague claim that has no context. And that is just, no offense, wank.

      >I think that the interpretation that all of the references of the Celestialsapiens as the greatest power in the universe would only refer to their versatility/hax, and not their attack potencies, seems like unreliable headcanon/speculation/interpretation.

      Im sorry Ant, but how is making this argument going off of headcanon exactly? We have 3 statements in series by itself that support the idea of Celestialsapiens only being known for their abilities as "the greatest power in the universe". As well as the fact that what Celestialsapiens are mostly known for, altering universes, is also a hax ability. And even then, like the Everlasting pointed out, Celestialsapiens are able to rewrite universal concepts, which would certainly fall under being "the greatest power" when no one else in the verse is even remotely capable of this.

      Like I said before, Ever and I are fine with keeping "Possibly 2-B", but my main points here aren't headcanon. If anything, arguing "greatest power equals attack potency" is whats headcanon here when it has little to no support.

      >All the earths Paradox showed represent 1 timeline each/ a paralel universe, and clearly there are more than 1000 earths.

      Again, based off what? You haven't answered this.

      >It doesnt say that anywere on that page, and even goes as far to say that it's impossible to quantify the diffreence between universal+ and multiversal. Feel free to quote the part that says otherwise.

      First of all, "impossible to quantify the difference" has nothing to do with this. Thats literally just pointing out that Low 2-C and 2-B have no quantifiable difference between each other. As in, there is a difference but its unknown numerically.

      Second of all, we have already had conversions in the past on why creating/destroying universal-multiversal space-time continuums blatantly counts as an attack potency feat that is still applied here to this day. I don't know why you keep trying to push this idea that Low 2-C and higher tiers are not based on attack potency, but that is blatantly false. And the number of tier 2 characters here that are rated as such should already tell you this. Unless:

      -Arceus


      -The Creation Trio


      -Zen'ō


      -Demigra


      -Dimentio


      -Sailor Moon (Character)


      -Hades (Saint Seiya)


      -Solaris


      -Time Eater

      and every other tier 2 character here are now suddenly tier 2 with only hax abilities...

      Im sorry, but this is starting to come off as nothing but a desperate counter argument if you have to actually argue against the  basic fundamentals of our tiering system to defend Alien X's rating. 

      >If the Chrono Navigator and CTB use hacks to destroy multiple timelines and Alien X has greater hacks, then they would still be 2-B, and Alien X would still scale.

      No, he wouldn't. Because not only do the Chrono Navigator and CTB not do their destructive feats with hax, you would have to prove that Celestialsapiens can actually use their reality warping/space-time manipulation for combat purposes rather than just being pure abilities. The only thing we know they can do is make things reality with thoughts and rewrite the very nature of space and time.

      And rewritting universal concepts is surely considered to be an "absolute power" like I said before, which perfectly falls under "the greatest power" in their universe.

      >while the Chrono Navigator is about to destoy all of existence , portals from the past are opening on Earth in the present.

      I figured this would be brought up. And no, this still doesn't mean the Navigator is using hax to destroy the Multiverse instead of Attack Potency. If anything, hax or otherwise, you guys are actually making things worse for yourselves since arguing Eon destroying existence with portals is implying The Navigator isn't even 2-B flat out but only 2-B through chain reaction processes by using those portals to other dimensions as the key to destroying them through a process.

      King Boo from Super Mario has a similar rating to this for example where he is Low 2-C when creating Paranormal Portals, which would destroy the Super Mario Bros universe if its not closed. And as you can see, Low 2-C is clearly not scaled to Boo's individual stats, it's its own separate tier.

      So even if your point about this is true, its a hax feat that not even the Chrono Navigator itself would scale to. It would just be a chain reaction feat.

      >Also some sort of vortex start appearing.

      I dont see how creating vortex with lightning bolts is suddenly not representing an AP feat. But assuming im wrong here anyway, you would have to choose between 2 things.

      Either the Navigator uses pure AP to destroy the Multiverse, which means it wouldnt scale to Celestialsapiens. OR, the Navigator does use hax but with a chain reaction feat through portals, which still wouldn't scale to Alien X. Especially since the Navigator itself wouldn't scale to it and the fact that Alien X has never used portals to even remotely destroy anything on a large scale.

      >Honestly how is the "being the greatest power" statement being fucking treated as not AP? It's a plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement that nothing directly contradicts in the entire series.

      Because it's not a "plain, fully understandable, no-nonsense statement"? Context literally suggests the opposite here? Re-read the OP and you'll see my point about this.

      Again, "greatest power in the universe" cannot be assumed to be talking about AP automatically if different context is presented to challenge that interpretation. Default assumption or not. If you disagree with this, that only means the burden of proof grows even bigger for you to prove it means attack potency. Context matters for a reason.

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    • ->

      No, he wouldn't. Because not only do the Chrono Navigator and CTB not do their destructive feats with hax, you would have to prove that Celestialsapiens can actually use their reality warping/space-time manipulation for combat purposes rather than just being pure abilities. The only thing we know they can do is make things reality with thoughts and rewrite the very nature of space and time.

      And rewritting universal concepts is surely considered to be an "absolute power" like I said before, which perfectly falls under "the greatest power" in their universe.

      Yes they do use hax, it's even mentioned on ther wiki page. Reality destruction is another form of reality warping, time and space manipulation is a sub-ability of reality warping. The Chronosapien Timebomb uses time and spatial manipulation to destroy the timelines, which are obviously both hax abilities. 

      And again, the Celestialsapiens have been stated to be able to do anything, why you arbtirarily decide that being able to replicate the feats of both weapons isnt included in the word "anything" is beyond me. How is "anything" vague?  Omnipotent does not mean " god-like", it means "unlimted power" or " able to do anything", and since we cant assume antyhing beyond what has been shown in the series, the most logical reasoning would be that the character is limited to what has been shown in the series.

      >"The Navigator isn't even 2-B flat out but only 2-B through chain reaction processes by using those portals to other dimensions as the key to destroying them through a process."

      No, not really. How does opening portals have anything to do with chain reaction??? It's still the weapon making said portals, if said portals it makes destroys reality, it doesnt change the fact that the Chrono Navigator is the one destryoing all of reality. King Boo is still listed as universal, it's just that he cant exactly use the portals without killing himself, but it doesnt change the fact that he is universal.



      How would the Chrono Navigator not scale to something it itself makes? The Chrono Navigator is the weapon that is able to destroy reality, destroy time and causality, since the weapon is shown to make portals to other timelines as it is destroying causality, it's ridicolous to then baselessly  assume that the Chrono Navigator uses AP and not hax to destroy reality. We have no indication of it doing so with AP, the burden of proof is on you when the context of the episode tells us otherwise.



      >"I dont see how creating vortex with lightning bolts is suddenly not representing an AP feat. But assuming im wrong here anyway, you would have to choose between 2 things."

      Because said vortex are portals into other timelines, which is not something you can do with AP. Prove that it uses AP, when the weapon has never shown to use AP.

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    • https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_Y-oTV9LtU

      https://imgur.com/a/NnfNB0C

      >You act like space isn't apart of a map that shows something on a cosmic scale. Just because the map is being used to explain the branching timelines to Ben does not mean that each random dot is suddenly a random universe. In fact, let me ask you this then. If those dots in the background suddenly meant they were other universes, why would Paradox's map present to ben different earths? That would be pretty uneccessary to show if the map was already depicting alternate realities in the way you argue it is. Even if it's a possibility, it's not outright proven to be the case here and we need concrete evidence of this being such. Not pure speculation. 

      I was always saying that each image of Earth is an alternate timeline. Said circles in the backround of the map are also Earths representing alternate timelines. If the Earths shown up close and in front of them show no other objects between them. There is no reason to believe there are is anything other than Earths behind them.

      It's headcanon to say that there are stars in the background of the map. There is no basis for that inference.

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    • >This is also very wrong. See above for the entire "omnipotence" bit of your argument. And even then, just because Celestialsapiens are still claimed to be omnipotent while the series shows a Multiverse ending weapon does not at all mean Celestialsapiens can do anything the weapon can. Celestialsapiens and the Chrono Navigator are never even directly compared to each other in the first place. You are taking 2 entirely different things and assuming they are put in the same boat as each other all because of a vague claim that has no context. And that is just, no offense, wank.

      The source material and the writers consistently refer to Celestialsapiens as the strongest knowing that the Chrono Navigator exists. There are no retcons or counter statements to them being the strongest.

      >Im sorry Ant, but how is making this argument going off of headcanon exactly? We have 3 statements in series by itself that support the idea of Celestialsapiens only being known for their abilities as "the greatest power in the universe". As well as the fact that what Celestialsapiens are mostly known for, altering universes, is also a hax ability. And even then, like the Everlasting pointed out, Celestialsapiens are able to rewrite universal concepts, which would certainly fall under being "the greatest power" when no one else in the verse is even remotely capable of this.

      Like I said before, Ever and I are fine with keeping "Possibly 2-B", but my main points here aren't headcanon. If anything, arguing "greatest power equals attack potency" is whats headcanon here when it has little to no support.

      There is no evidense to suggest that Celestialsapien's power is only limited by hacks. It can incude hacks, yes, but how is it limited to only that?

      You do realize you arguing that a being consistantly stated to have the greatest power and Omnipotent by the writers and the source material is still weaker than an object that is always held by a person who said Celestialsapiens are the greatest power and omnipotent..

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    • I'm honestly siding with Firestorm and the supporters of 2-B  tbh.

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    • Firestorm808
      Firestorm808 removed this reply because:
      copy.
      22:13, November 11, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • @ProfessorKukui4Life

      Overall, while I do side with the 2-B gang, I do understand some of your points. Like, yeah Door's insistence that omnipotence and "can do anything" aren't vague is getting a little old. Once again, Alien X cannot be Tier-0, i.e omnipotent/nigh-omnipotent, because he is bound by the 17/26 spatio-temporal dimensions of the Ben 10 verse which was confirmed by a Man of Action statement saying that when a dimensional reboot occurs "all beings are inside the experience, not outside of it" in direct response to a question involving Alien X. The fact he is bound by dimensions prevents anything even close to omnipotent status.

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    • @DragonicDoom for the last goddamn time, a true omnipotent character CANNOT exist in any shape or form, you CANNOT apply the word literally. A true omnipotent character would NOT be Tier-0, they would be Tier minus infinity. It's not possible for any character to be truly omnipotent. And do explain how the word is vague, what do you mean by vague exactly? 

      "Can do anything / omnipotent" obviously means  that he can do anything/ is omnipotent, but is also obviously limited to what has been shown in the series. We cant assume he can do anything that hasnt already been shown in Ben 10, that would be a no-limits fallacy.

      It's repeatedly emphasized throughout the series that there are no limits to what Alien X can do, what exactly is vague about that?  It's no less vague that other fictional characters being stated to have limitless speed/ strength/ weight etc. 

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    • @Door

      Omnipotence as a word used in fiction is vague due to its incorrect use by people who are either incredibly prideful about their own abilities, or people who are so weak in comparison to the character that they believe them to be omnipotent. As I've said before, Darkseid, Old King Thanos and Buuhan have called themselves omnipotent because they have huge egos. An example of weak beings overestimating stronger beings is the MCU Asgardians. Early humans called them gods who used magic, but we know they're just a very powerful, highly advanced civilisation. They may be powerful but they certainly aren't gods. It's less that the word itself is vague, but the way that many verses and characters use it incorrectly makes it difficult to tell what they exactly mean. 

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    • Alien X has never called himself Omnipotent, and Darkseid Thanos and Buu all have evidence suggesting they arent omnipotent, whereas Alien X hasnt. No credible  character have called them omnipotent, unlike Alien X.

      Furthermore, the creators of the sereis have repeteadly stated alien X has omnipotence, and that he "can have any power imaginable", somemthing that the creators never stated for either Darkseid, Thanos or Buuhan . Surely the creators of Ben 10 know what they are talking about? And it's very easy to tell exactly what they mean, it means he can do anything that isnt limited to Ben 10 series.

      . If there is no reason to doubt Alien X is omnipotent, then why not assume he is? Just becaues some fictional character lie about being omnipotent, doesnt mean all of them do. That's baseless headcanon. We might as well rejects statements from a character stating they can blow up a planet or universe , as they are too vague, because some fictional characters have lied about being able to do that

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    • Because an omnipotent characters doesn't have any limits, as established by authorities like Thomas Equines.

      Alien X being omnipotent is quite frankly a joke, as he has many limits (personalities limiting him, other Celestialsapiens rivaling his power, etc, etc). Please stop this absurd line of logic immediately.

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    • @Crab he means that X should have every ability in the show, not literally omnipotent but @Door this is not really the thread to talk about that since then we’d go back to whether him not being able to manipulate mana is valid et etc. Ad Infinitum. Which brings us back to our problem, the Chrono Navigator ( yes I just ripped off Paradox)

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    • @crabwhale, I already said not to take the word omnipotent literally, which you are doing. Thomas Equines whoever he is, cannot write an actual omnipotent character, because nobody can. It's not possible for any fictional character to be omnipotent .

      I'm merely saying that there is nothing in Ben 10 that Alien X is limited to do, as in, he can do anything that is shown in Ben 10, but assuming he can do more is a no-limits fallacy. 

      He's essentially "omnipotent" to Ben 10 if you will.

      @Greenshifter

      What about the author saying that Alien X can have any power imaginable, and Azmuth saying he can do anything surely that should include  CHrono Navigagtor? The authors say he cant manipulate mana doesnt mean much because no such thing is implied in the show.

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    • @Door if you want Alien X to get every ability in the show I suggest making your own CRT for it since focusing on Chrono Navigator scaling and this is a bit much for one CRT.

      Speaking of the Chrono Navigator:

      People saying the Chrono Navigator works via hax:

      People saying the Chrono Navigator works via AP:

      People saying it could be both:

      I would like some clarification on the King Boo case and if the Chrono Navigator scales to itself or not if we assume the portals interpretation (since it is 2B thus outputting energy across a 5D-axis is a thing implying multiversal power which King Boo’s case does not have) and if the Chrono Navigator doesn’t scale to itself, wouldn’t Alien X still scale above it because the energy needed to create those portals across the multiverse and destroy the multiverse has to come from somewhere, I see this more of a case where different ruptures in space-time come together to form one big rupture, but the former would take as much energy as the latter which is accepted as 2B.

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    • @ Door

      Well, learn to word your statements better then, because that's what it seemed you were implying.

      And again, even in the context of the show, Alien X is not "omnipotent" for the same reasons I already stated. He does struggle, and he does have drawbacks.

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    • @crabwhale I already worded it out that way in my previous statement to DragonDoom. And what do you mean by he isnt omnipotent? Is there something some Ben 10 characters can do that he has failed to do?

      @Greenshifter , well I think its its relevant for this CRT, 

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    • That's not just the definition of "omnipotent". Even practical omnipotence within a given verse that isn't the bullshit unachievable version has some prerequisites, like having no limits or never struggling.

      Alien X does have things that limit him (the multiple personalities for one) and things that can make him struggle (the surface of that one planet even he can't approach, other Celestialsapiens), meaning even within the context of the verse he is not all powerful.

      I don't understand exactly what you're even trying to argue for exactly here, but I ask you again, drop this needless point in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

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    • So I'm still in favor of putting Alien X back to 2-C. But continuing with this thread, I just want to point out one thing. 

      @Firestorm your initial argument was "Statement's about the power of Celestialsapiens aren't a one-time thing and are consistant during the series' production."

      Which would give them the scale to the Chrono Navigator. 

      But based off the quotes that you showed us, prior to Omniverse and the power of the Chrono Navigator it was stated multiple times of Celestialsapiens having "the greatest power." Multiple times this was stated. 

      Yet when Omniverse came out and Chrono Navigator came, (again based off the quotes that you pulled) it was never once stated "Celestialsapiens greatest power." 

      Omnipotent was stated but Crab went over why they aren't.

      So my point is that I am in agreement with Everlasting argument "Even with how we treat statements vs author intent I feel like it's important to mention that I highly doubt the statements about Alien X were made with the Chrono Navigator in mind."

      The fact is the show before was fine with stating them having the greatest power ever as we saw them say it multiple times, but in the last series it was never stated even though they had a chance to. 

      • Edited* Also in their first ever quote from Celestialsapiens they said they were the "Most powerful beings." 

      Do powerful beings automatically give them scale to a product? If the Chrono Navigator was an actual being then I would agree, but it's a product/item. 

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    • @Crabwhale

      Alien X is only mentioned to be unable to survive on that planet by WOG, never in the series. And as far as I know author statements are not used in VSBW if nothing in the series backs them up. Furthermore, the authors and characters in the series have said that as long as Serena and Bellicus agree with something, they can do anything( which would obviously be limited to the Ben 10 series). Heck, according to Paradox Aggregor would have been omnipotent without having multiple personalities, had he absorbed a baby celestialsapien + Ben has full controll over Alien X without ever needing to talk to Serena and Bellicus after the episode "Universe Vs Tennyson".

      And it's not exactly pointless, I'm saying Alien X should scale to both multiversal weapons, based on the fact that WOG and characters in the series have stated he can do anything, that he can have any power imaginable, that he is omnipotent, has the greatest power in the universe etc. I really dont understand why that's so hard to get?



      @Laggingaround

      The burden of proof is on you to prove that the authors changed their mind about Celestialsapiens being the most powerful thing during Omniverse, since we are given no reason to believe so. The authors have said after Omniverse that Alien X can " have any power imaginable", which obviously implies that he is above the Chrono Navigator.

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    • @LaggingAround

      The process of deciding to do an action and having the power to perform said action are independent of each other. So long as the personalities agree, the action will be done. Said actions of repeatedly "anything" suggests it includes whatever has been presented so far in the source material. Nothing in the source material suggests otherwise. 

      Also, Anur Vladias isn't supported by the source material, and it's from an art director.

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    • I missed so much.

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    • @Laggingaround and everyone else saying the Chrono Navigator shouldn’t scale because of timing.

      Greenshifter wrote: My rebuttal to the timing of the greatest power statement:

      First of all: we do not assume something to be retconned unless it is explicitly shown.

      Second of all: the statement was only made only 2 years before the Chrono Navigator was established as a 2B-device which is not that long.

      Third of all: Kukui stated this:

      It's like how Anti-Monitor fought a guy who would be established as a 5-Dimensional Imp years after the story happened so it was clearly not the intent when writing, and we don't use it as a result.

      DC however is way more inconsistent than Ben 10, has multiple independent writers, while Man Of Action is always involved in Ben 10 and the time gap is presumably less than this DC case.

      Fourth of all: Man Of Action does think about the destructive capabilities of whatever device Paradox made as seen here, his entropy pump that he made back in the 50's could destroy reality for a distance of several lightyears. The Chrono Navigator was made at least 100000 years after this and after he gained complete understanding of the space-time continuum and this was all established in AF and UA, so the Chrono Navigator being a 2B-device in Omniverse is only a logical extension from this.

      Fifth of all:

      From the episode "Paradox":

      Ben: You save the world dozens of times.

      Paradox: Hundreds, actually. In fact, on one occasion, you and I worked together to save the entire univ-- never mind. It should be here any -- [loud rumbling] You could set your watch by it.

      Ben and Paradox working together to save the entire universe (well actually multiverse or more) happened in Ben Again, which is the episode when the Chrono Navigator is established as a 2B-device.

      TLDR; Alien X should stay at 2B, if my rebuttal is not convincing enough then I am fine with at least Low-2C, likely 2B.

      @Zamasu Yes, but actually no.

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    • @Everyone else, the main focus should be right now to determine if the Chrono Navigator uses AP or hax and if it uses hax, that it scales to itself, if it does, this thread is practically over.

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    • Crabwhale wrote: That's not just the definition of "omnipotent". Even practical omnipotence within a given verse that isn't the bullshit unachievable version has some prerequisites, like having no limits or never struggling.

      Alien X does have things that limit him (the multiple personalities for one) and things that can make him struggle (the surface of that one planet even he can't approach, other Celestialsapiens), meaning even within the context of the verse he is not all powerful.

      I don't understand exactly what you're even trying to argue for exactly here, but I ask you again, drop this needless point in a discussion that has absolutely nothing to do with it.

      well yeah alien x is not truly omnipotent he does have limit especially that the creator confirmed that alien x is not even the strongest in the OmniTrix
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    • Not being the strongest was retconned in the show.

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    • Well since Badrimoine posted here might as well revive this thread, however are we gonna continue 2B Alien X and finish it before the move to the forums or do wait till everyone's exams are over (Andy's, Kukui's I assume, mine (I do still have some time before they start)) in February (at least that's when mine are over) and remake the thread on the new forum?

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    • Greenshifter wrote: Well since Badrimoine posted here might as well revive this thread, however are we gonna continue 2B Alien X and finish it before the move to the forums or do wait till everyone's exams are over (Andy's, Kukui's I assume, mine (I do still have some time before they start)) in February (at least that's when mine are over) and remake the thread on the new forum?

      wait does 2-B mean 4D or 5D?
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    • It means multiversal, at least 1000 universal timespaces. Being higher dimensional is not mutually exclusive.

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    • Firestorm808 wrote: It means multiversal, at least 1000 universal timespaces. Being higher dimensional is not mutually exclusive.

      can you tell me whats the difference between multiverse and omniverse? I'm confused
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    • We generally don't use the term Omniverse on this site because it gives inflated results and Omniverse is not very clearly defined in Ben 10.

      My opinion: Multiverse is the collection of all timelines within Ben 10. Omniverse is the collection of all timelines + all alternate realities such as the Null Void, Dagon's dimension, Ledgerdomain, et etc.

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    • I agree with Firestorm.

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    • Greenshifter wrote: We generally don't use the term Omniverse on this site because it gives inflated results and Omniverse is not very clearly defined in Ben 10.

      My opinion: Multiverse is the collection of all timelines within Ben 10. Omniverse is the collection of all timelines + all alternate realities such as the Null Void, Dagon's dimension, Ledgerdomain, et etc.

      so multiverse is all universes together and omniverse is literally everything?
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    • In DC, the omniverse is a collection of Multiverses in the Overvoid.

      In regards to Ben 10, its not elaborated on that much.

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    • it changes depending on the verse

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    • This thread has been going on for a minute. Is there any consensus here?

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    • @Quicksilver Nope, we have yet to decide whether The Chrono Navigator works via hax or not and if it still scales to itself if it does.

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    • Greenshifter wrote: @Quicksilver Nope, we have yet to decide whether The Chrono Navigator works via hax or not and if it still scales to itself if it does.

      shouldn't the crono navigator be 2-A since it was going to erase infinite universes and time lines which is a 2-A feat?
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    • Well we don’t know if it’s infinite or not, but that’s being discussed in the other thread. However, the problem is that if the Chrono Navigator did it via portals and those portals are deemed to not scale to his AP (because it would take less energy to create the portals to then destroy the multiverse then straight up destroying the multiverse or something) then the Chrono Navigator would only be 2B via portals and thus Alien X might not scale above it because it’s essentially destroying the multiverse via cheats instead of raw power.

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    • Greenshifter wrote: Well we don’t know if it’s infinite or not, but that’s being discussed in the other thread. However, the problem is that if the Chrono Navigator did it via portals and those portals are deemed to not scale to his AP (because it would take less energy to create the portals to then destroy the multiverse then straight up destroying the multiverse or something) then the Chrono Navigator would only be 2B via portals and thus Alien X might not scale above it because it’s essentially destroying the multiverse via cheats instead of raw power.

      d

      Wait don't are you trying to tell me that Alien_X should be downgraded to low 2-C???

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    • I’m using the word if, I’m saying that we need to refute this, or else Alien X will be back to low-2C (well the CTB and the Anihilaarg upgrade are still a thing so maybe not low-2C but it would not be as good as scaling to the Chrono Navigator).

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    • Greenshifter wrote: I’m using the word if, I’m saying that we need to refute this, or else Alien X will be back to low-2C (well the CTB and the Anihilaarg upgrade are still a thing so maybe not low-2C but it would not be as good as scaling to the Chrono Navigator).

      I mean still think that Alien_X should be beyond 2-B for reasons above so here this video:

      https://youtu.be/Wb8gNfTiuks This video will explain Alien_X feats and don't worry this video is not talking about contemelia or Najilians

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    • Well scaling to the Chrono Navigator is better than whatever AP feats Kuro brought up.

      Also Kuro said Vilgax Attacks is non-canon, time to downgrade Way Big OvO.

      @Quicksilver how familiar are you with existence erasure and phasing?

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    • Greenshifter wrote: Well scaling to the Chrono Navigator is better than whatever AP feats Kuro brought up.

      Also Kuro said Vilgax Attacks is non-canon, time to downgrade Way Big OvO.

      @Quicksilver how familiar are you with existence erasure and phasing? </div> what?? Did you at least watch the video? Also even if alien x doesn't scale to the crone navigator he wouldn't be low 2-C since he showed feats way beyond that level, also celestialsapiens are responsible of changing voice actor and art style and everything in the entire omniverse which contains at least 26 dimensions and this feat is far beyond low 2-C and even 2-B also here's another video : https://youtu.be/4h6pQR6uWDU (look at 20:47 but this time contemelia are included in this video so yeah sorry)

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    • @Greenshifter

      The holes in time would have destroyed everything eventually, but Eon took a more direct approach. When Eon was intentionally trying to destroy everything, the Navigator shot out some form of energy.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmK-tDG9948

      Eon used the Chrono Navigator to summon his minions with holes in time that he creates.

      Gwen Tennyson: The holes in time... They're not closing!

      The holes in time then gather to make time warps to other times and dimensions.

      Professor Paradox: Careful, children! Crossing over the time warps can have disastrous consequences!

      Eon: What is this, Time Walker? You tricked me!

      Professor Paradox: On the contrary, I warned you. Stop this now or all of existence will be destroyed!

      Eon: No! If I cannot rule the Cosmos then I will be the one to destroy it! Aaah!

      Eon shoots out energy from the Navigator.

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    • Ah voila that solves it then, do we treat the energy he shot out as pure AP or space-time manipulation as well?

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    • I dont see any reason not to treat is as hax, considering literally everything else the Chrono Navigator has done was hax-related. And again, destroying reality, which is a form of reality warping, is already listed as hax on this  site

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    • It seems I am not against this anymore but I still want to hear what Professor Kukui wants to say about this matter

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    • Yeah and I would like Andy to clarify his stance and accept the weapons as hax-based. But both seem to be preoccupied.

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    • What about other mods? I think CrabWhale was on board with the upgrades? 

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    • This discussion is still going? Holy shit...

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    • @Door one step ahead of you and already contacted Crabwhale.

      @Soulofcinder Exactly.

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    • Yes I am still on board with the upgrades, now what is even left to be discussed here?

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    • dunno, it's been weeks and nobody has brought any rebuttal as for why the timebomb + the chrono navigator dont work via hax,  and they would also have to explain why alien X doesnt scale to a weapon he recreated from nothingness using only its creation power.

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    • @Crab ah but can I edit the pages of the Anihilaarg and CTB and put existence erasure on there as well as tell Kukui his hax point is moot now that the Chrono Navigator works via 2B space-time manipulation that scales to it’s AP?

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    • Bump, didn't really get an answer to my question and I'm gonna need explicit staff approval if I wanna edit those pages and some confirmation that 2-B space-time manipulation that scales to AP is accepted as well wouldn't hurt either.

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    • This thread started in Novemeber and it's December....i would like for this to be concluded now.  

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    • The original chain of threads started in August... Regardless why don't you give your opinion Quicksilver? Kukui said that if sufficient staff agrees with a Chrono Navigator that has 2-B space-time manipulation (hax) scaling to it's AP then the thread is over.

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    • Message #158, #166, #167 and #226 are all the summaries and main arguments and shouldn't take too long to check out. If you want a source on anything you can ask me.

      Chrono Navigator destroying all of existence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmK-tDG9948

      Chronosapien Time Bomb destroying the multiverse: https://youtu.be/kxyBSghHZ7E

      Anihilaarg destroying the universe: https://youtu.be/zUQSg-23vyI

      Anihilaarg creating the universe: https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6s34lj 18:54

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    • Greenshifter wrote:
      The original chain of threads started in August... Regardless why don't you give your opinion Quicksilver? Kukui said that if sufficient staff agrees with a Chrono Navigator that has 2-B space-time manipulation (hax) scaling to it's AP then the thread is over.

      I stand by what i said in the previous 2-B threads. Nothing has changed. I'm still in agreement. 

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    • But the thing is do you agree with the Chrono Navigator using hax that scales to it's AP or just that if the Chrono Navigator uses AP, that Alien X scales to it, since the former needs a lot less staff agreement since it only changes the working of the Navigator and as a side result Alien X scales to it regardless of hax or AP.

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    • I favor both tbh. But I like the hax=ap one better.

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    • All right thank you for your input.

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    • There is a thread going on to put alien x at 2-A?

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    • Though scaling from just strongest statement seems iffy to me but its just my personal view and shouldn't matter anymore and I really have not much to say anymore so I guess I will agree with 2-B Alien X scaling from chrono navigator and CTB for now and yeah I guess hax could translate to AP in this case 

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    • Recreating the CTB is also a supporting feat since it might still use a 2-B power-source despite being existence erasure based.

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    • Kukui said that he'll be done with his semester this week so I guess I'll wait for him to come back and give his input.

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    • Sorry for the long wait everyone. My semester at college is finished, done with school for now, so I have more time to respond to things here. Anyway, my rebuttals. 

      >Yes they do use hax, it's even mentioned on ther wiki page.

      Which can, and is, wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant.

      >Reality destruction is another form of reality warping

      No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now. Reality destruction is an AP feat, not a hax feat. The fact that not every reality destroyer, as low as 4-A or as high as tier 2, doesn't automatically have this should already tell you why its not a hax.

      >The Chronosapien Timebomb uses time and spatial manipulation to destroy the timelines, which are obviously both hax abilities.

      Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.

      >And again, the Celestialsapiens have been stated to be able to do anything, why you arbtirarily decide that being able to replicate the feats of both weapons isnt included in the word "anything" is beyond me.

      Because it's not something to be taken literally like you want it to be taken as? I shouldn't have to explain this bit. Someone arbitrarily giving hyperbolic statements like this, which are common in many fictional verses if you didn't know, doesn't remotely mean its to be taken as true. It's borderline wank. Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.

      >How is "anything" vague?

      With no supporting feat? Just hyping someone up to inflated levels to do something they've never shown they can do? Put 2 and 2 together please.

      And don't take that last part personally btw, I genuinely don't mean any disrespect coming from it.

      >Omnipotent does not mean " god-like", it means "unlimted power" or " able to do anything", and since we cant assume antyhing beyond what has been shown in the series, the most logical reasoning would be that the character is limited to what has been shown in the series.

      Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent. And that's exactly how it is treated here too. Anything that is considered "omnipotent" without being literally treated as such is only because they have a strength, or overpowered ability, that is "god-tier status" compared to everyone else in their respective fictional universe. And since you still want to try and deny this, I can give you multiple examples of this.

      First example, Yhwach from Bleach. Yhwach is stated to have Omnipotent and Omniscient powers because of his ability, "The Almighty". We obviously don't take this at heart because it's just hyperbolic language used to describe Yhwach's powers being god-like compared to nearly everyone else in the Bleachverse. He isn't capable of "anything" in Bleach as he has established limits and he most certaintly doesn't have infinite knowledge.

      Second example, Arceus from Pokemon. Arceus has an ability literally called "Omnipotent" which allows him to inflict damage on Pokemon of any and all types in Pokemon. Has nothing to do with actual omnipotence or otherwise, it's just an OP ability for Arceus since he's the god of Pokemon and the creator of the multiverse.

      Another example, Hao Asakura from Shaman King. Hao is stated to be Omnipotent and Omniscient because of him being the Shaman King, an entity that its "all powerful" and "all knowing" when being united with the Great Spirit .  This isn't taken as anything more than "just being god like" either since it's obvious the Shaman King or Great Spirit cannot do anything either. For one, the GS can be forcefully bound to a random person. And new Shaman Kings are determined one after the other, which debunks the notion of "can do anything" here. It's simply considered that because of it being the god of spirits whom all souls originate from and watches over the universe as a king.

      Hopefully, I don't need to give more examples. "Omnipotent", "all powerful", "can do anything", they are all hyperbolic flowery terms when it comes to vs debating. They simply reference someone who has god-like strength, or god-like abilities, compared to the norms of their respective fictional verse. Just as you saw with the examples I listed before. And without any defined context added, they are as vague as they can get. Someone can be considered "omnipotent" for having an overpowered hax ability while someone else can be considered the same for having incomparable strength.

      And using common sense, it's obvious that Alien X and no Celestialsapien can literally do anything in the Ben 10 Multiverse. Otherwise, trival limitations like having multiple personalities would literally be a non-existent weakness for them.

      >No, not really. How does opening portals have anything to do with chain reaction???

      Because you aren't directly destroying X with Y attack? Your using an alternate medium, like portals, to do the feat? Look at the example I previously gave again, King Boo. Using a portal to destroy something is entirely different from using actual attack potency to destroy it. You know, with an attack from your own power.

      >King Boo is still listed as universal, it's just that he cant exactly use the portals without killing himself, but it doesnt change the fact that he is universal.

      Through strictly a process that doesn't scale to him directly. If you use an alternate source or medium to do the feat, rather than your own individual power, then the feat doesn't scale to you. So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.

      It's like if a wall level character is city level through using a bomb to destroy cities. Defeating said wall level character wouldn't make you city level yourself, unless you specifically overpowered their bomb.

      >How would the Chrono Navigator not scale to something it itself makes?

      Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat. They may be doing the feat, but its through an indirect process. An overtime process at that.

      >We have no indication of it doing so with AP, the burden of proof is on you when the context of the episode tells us otherwise.

      I don't really need to do though. Because even if the navigator is doing it through hax, the feat doesn't scale to anyone. A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time. Not immediately.

      So you guys basically gave your arguments a double edged sword.

      >I was always saying that each image of Earth is an alternate timeline. Said circles in the backround of the map are also Earths representing alternate timelines.

      The former isn't the issue, the latter is. There is absolutely no evidence that those dots in the background of the map are Earths. Thats an assumption.

      >The source material and the writers consistently refer to Celestialsapiens as the strongest knowing that the Chrono Navigator exists. There are no retcons or counter statements to them being the strongest.

      Doesn't really matter. Because that's from a writing perspective rather than a logistical one.

      This is like saying Jiren from DBS isn't the strongest enemy Goku's ever faced because the writers brought Broly in afterward. Or that Arceus shouldnt be 2-B because the writers written him to nearly die from a meteor despite knowing full well what his status is in the Pokemonverse.

      >There is no evidense to suggest that Celestialsapien's power is only limited by hacks. It can incude hacks, yes, but how is it limited to only that?

      I never claimed this. Of course Celestialsapiens don't just have hax abilities. My point is that what's considered "the greatest power" from them is through hax according to the statements given.

      You can argue their power is apart of that, but you'd need more evidence for that interpretation to be correct. That was my point from the beginning.

      >You do realize you arguing that a being consistantly stated to have the greatest power and Omnipotent

      Omnipotent means nothing, see above. And "greatest power" doesnt mean anything without defined context.

      >The holes in time would have destroyed everything eventually, but Eon took a more direct approach. When Eon was intentionally trying to destroy everything, the Navigator shot out some form of energy.

      This doesn't change anything for your side. In fact, it actually makes this even worse for you. Not only does this contradict the argument of the Chrono Navigator using hax for it's "feat", it also supports my point of this being a chain reaction drawn out feat either way you slice it.

      If the Navigator even remotely had 2-B level energy, it would have immediately destroyed existence. Or at the very least, destroyed something. What do we get instead? A thunderbolt with strong winds and a thunderstorm, not remotely destroying anuthing immediately and directly. Doorinmyhouse, a person who sides with you, even references this in previous replies. So the only thing your comment here proves is that, if the Navigator uses any actual energy for destruction at all, it's not 2-B. From everything gathered from this, we have 2 different possibilities.

      One, the Chrono Navigator is AP, not Hax, and does the feat through an overtime drawn out process for not immediately destroying the multiverse, making the feat unable to be scaled to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.

      Or

      Two, the Chrono Navigator is Hax instead of AP, but does the feat through a chain reaction drawn out process using portals as the medium to destroy the multiverse, which also doesn't scale to anyone. Not even the Chrono Navigator itself.

      No matter which point you choose, the feat doesn't scale to anyone.

      >I dont see any reason not to treat is as hax, considering literally everything else the Chrono Navigator has done was hax-related. And again, destroying reality, which is a form of reality warping, is already listed as hax on this site

      It's not, check our Reality Warping page. Reality destruction is simple pocket space/universe/multierse destruction. Not hax. It's AP.

      And anyway, you can't have this both ways. The Navigator either uses hax or AP. If hax, then the feat doesnt scale to anyone or anything since using portals to destroy the multiverse overtime doesn't directly scale you to 2-B. And if AP, then it returns to my original point. Not only that, it strengthens my argument since even with AP, the Navigator still wouldnt be directly 2-B since it's energy didnt immediately destroy the Multiverse or even begin to destroy it.

      Sorry for this being dragged out, but this is not over yet.

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    • >Which can, and is, wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant.

      You saying it's wrong doesnt actually mean much. Prove it is.

      >No, it's not. We don't even consider it as that here ourselves , so your making things up here now.

      Wrong, clearly the page says that " Completely or partially erase things from existence" is a type of reality warping. Which is something both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB has been stated to be able to do. And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed, and even if you do it would just be as said by yourself :"wrong and can be changed. Irrelevant."

      You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite. It doesnt work that way. Either the wiki can be used to prove reality destruction is or isnt AP or it cant be used to prove/ disprove it.

      >Talking about the Navigator. Not the time bomb.

      So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?

      >Especially when the devices you want to include here are something no Celestialsapien is ever even directly compared with.

      In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both. By your logic, he shouldnt scale to either.

      > With no supporting feat?

      Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats? They have already shown their reality warping power covers the enitrty of the Ben 10 cosmos, and what's the point of being disrespectful then following it up with " dont take it personally" ??? If you already know you're being disrespectful to the point you have to warn me in advance that you arent (???), what's the point of saying it to me, and pretending it isn't disrespectful?? Just own up to it, it's not a big deal.

      >Except that it does mean that because that is what it's generally referring to in fiction, for anything that isn't a literal omnipotent. 

      Literally nothing can be a literal omnipotent, and why are you using fansubs? They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.

      The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.

      > So yes King Boo is Universal, but not individually. Which is an explicit requirement for scaling a feat to someone else. There's a reason why the Low 2-C rating doesn't scale to others.

      So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.

      >Just like why any character that performs a chain reaction feat doesnt scale to said feat.

      And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.

      >  A chain reaction feat doesn't scale to anything as it's indirectly separate from the power of who's doing it and it's done over a period of time. 

      Yet Gogeta SSJ4 scales to Omega Shenron.

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    • >Wrong, clearly the page says that " Completely or partially erase things from existence" is a type of reality warping. Which is something both the Chrono Navigator and the CTB has been stated to be able to do.

      Erasure isn't AP destruction.

      >And please do give examples of reality destroyers that dont have this listed

      Son Goku, Jiren, Vegeta, Piccolo, Son Gohan, Frieza, Kale, Caulifla, and Cabba. And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax. All of these guys can destroy universes and lack any form of reality warping. Need I go on?

      >You cant have it both way, you cant both say I cant use the wiki as evidence that reality destruction is hax,because the wiki is often wrong, and then use the exact same argument to say the opposite.

      False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day. Im using the wikia to support a claim that is established here to this day.

      Can something be wrong? Of course. But considering the very basic fundamentals of our tiering system sides with me, I think its clear what doesn't need to change or what isn't incorrect.

      >So you agree the CTB works by hax and that Alien X scales to it?

      Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.

      >In 99% of all cases where we powerscale, characters are scaled to characters that they are never directly compared with. Example, Android 16 is never directly compared to either Goku or Frieza, yet gets scaled to both

      Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell. And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.

      >Celestialsapiens have shown on 2 occasions to manipualte the entirety of all Ben 10 universes, so not what sure what you mean by no supporting feats?

      ...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.

      >They are not official translations, they dont mean a thing here.

      Even if you're right, it doesn't change the actual point I made at all. Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent", "all powerful" and "can do anything" despite it not being literally so. They are only called that because of having a godly-status. Simple as that.

      >The name of an attack never means anything ever, doesnt matter if the name is "omnipotent" or "Light speed blast", we dont use the name of an attack to upgrade a character ever.'

      Exactly and neither should anyone be upgraded for being arbitrarily given the "omnipotent" status either just because they are top of their verse's food chain, like other people here pointed out to you. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally. It's ridiculous.

      >So why is he listed as being universal, if he isnt? All it means is he is a glass canon really, and that his power is far greater than anyone else, since no one has matched the power of his portals.

      Thats exactly the case actually. King Boo is a glass canon. His portals are what are universal, not himself. He still gets the Low 2-C rating since his portals can destroy universes at the end of the day, but the feat doesnt scale to his individual stats. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.

      This is why characters who either do feats like this, or use preparation to pull a feat off, never have their individual stats scale to the feat. It's like Kaguya Ōtsutsuki and her ETSB. The ESTB is star level once gathering enough chakra to destroy her dimensions with stars in them. But Kaguya herself is no where near that, in the 5-C territory. See what I mean?

      >And yet Omega Shenron is listed as universal, despite only being able to destroy the universe via a chain reaction, by making negative ki cores across the universe which eventually would destroy the universe.

      It's not a chain reaction as far as I recall. There were some huge discussions on this and it was agreed to not be that, which is why he was upgraded. Or rather he was allowed to keep his tier.

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    • >Erasure isn't AP destruction.

      No, but destroying reality = erasing it. You cant physically destroy concept.

      > And I used these guys on purpose since DB specifically isnt a verse known for hax

      I dont recall a universe and reality being the same thing.



      >False equivalence, your trying to use the wikia itself to support a claim that is not remotely established here to this day. 

      It's not remotely established to this day, and yet it's on the Chrono Navigator's wiki page? okay.

      >Nope. But thats a different discussion to have all together. This is about the Navigator.

      Do explain how the Chronosapien Timebomb doesnt work via hax. Is existence erasure not hax either?



      >Horrible False Equivalency. Unlike Celestialsapiens, Andriod 16 is scaled from Goku and Frieza because of him being on the same caliber of someone who's as strong or is stronger than them, Cell.

      It's not really a false equvalency, when you said that we shouldnt scale Alien X due to him never directly getting compared with the weapons, implying you need to get directly compared to something in order to scale from something else.

      >And he directly fights with him. Celestialsapiens have to rely on pure statements, that are being called out as vague, to even have a connection to the Navigator in the first place. Something they never directly or indirectly take on.

      So you need to directly fight something else in order to powerscale, and not rely purely on statements? Well then, how come Sour and most of Whis siblings other than Vados, have literally 0 feats yet are scaled from Jiren, purely from statements???  They arent even at any point compared to Jiren, yet scale from him.

      > ...I hardly see how altering universes means they can suddenly do anything they want.

      This is a massive strawman. I already explained to you dozens of times not to take the word omnipotent literlly, this is getting really annoying. also i never said they could do anything.

      >  Characters with god-like strength and/or abilities compared to the fodders of their respective fictional verse are called "Omnipotent",

      Care to give an example, where someone is stated to be omnipotent by credible characters and the authors of the series, yet still do not scale from every character within their series? Because if not, your point hardly matters.

      >. Or being given a random nod of "being able to do anything" and suddenly have people take it literally.  

      By this logic the The One Above All from marvel should not scale from every being in marvel, yet he does.

      >. He doesn't do the feat with his own power but an alternate process to accomplish it.

      All it really mean is that King Boo and Kaguya's most powerful attack is massively above their regular durabilty and everything else within the series. This is no diffrent from Haruhi Suzumiya having multiversal power yet human durabilty. I concede on the GT argument, as I havent read the thread yet.

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    • @Kukui to my knowledge the speed at which an infinite speed object/being destroys the multiverse is completely irrelevant and after watching it again, Eon speeds up the destruction caused by space-time manipulation via shooting out a beam of energy into the sky most likely tearing reality apart faster or bringing the universes closer to each other (he was anchoring them after all), Ben then freezes the arm of Eon so Eon can not give the Chrono Navigator the command to destroy reality further and proceeds to blast him with Clockwork after he gets free. As for why Eon did not immediately destroy reality when he wanted to, no idea, showing off maybe, just PIS, doesn't really matter because it should be infinite speed scaling from Paradox.

      Quicksilver also agreed with the hax = AP thing meaning that it is an option.

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    • @Doorinmyhouse

      1) Destroying reality is vague and unquantifiable,the size of reality should be clarifed in question in order to use this as a feat

      2) Yes

      5) Android 16 scales due to fighting with Imperfect Cell in equal grounds while 17 was getting stomped which is unlike Alien X case where he isn't directly scaled like that and is probably compared due to statements

      6) Because them being angels should naturally compare themself with Whis who is massively above Beerus and angels> 2 GoDs low multiversal feat>Jiren so they scale above Jiren due to scaling with Whis and Vados and not by statements

      Wouldn't comment in other points related to Ben 10 because I am not even sure anymore and wiki standards since I don't understand whats happening 

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    • @Greenshifter

      Wouldn't that count as recreation hax? And even if it counts then why isn't Porunga High 4C for bringing back Goten and Trunks body? I believe same is the case here

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    • @MyArea Who recreates something? Eon destroys the multiverse or at least tries to...

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    • Wow Alien X is such an interesting character...I mean to be fair there was always about him that kept me intrigued....

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    • getting filled comments what could do Alien X 2-B right?

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    • @Doorinmyhouse

      1) Reality is the size of the Ben 10 cosmos, all of reality and all of existence is mentioned to be in danger of getting destroyed. It's not vague at all, not even close. What else could all of existence imply other than the entirety of the Ben 10 cosmos?

      2) Yes to what?

      5) imperfect cell & 16 never fought someone who destroyed earth or was stated to be able to do so, nor did they do so themselves nor do they have statements implying they could do so. 

      This is no different from Alien X never getting directly scaled from the weapons. So if you're going to be consitant about powerscaling, you should not scale 16 or imperfect Cell from Frieza, yet everyone does anyway.


      6)  You are not making any sense, why should they "naturally compare" when was it stated that all angels are around the same level? Look, im not thying to deny Whis siblings are on his level, im just saying that going by your and Professor's arguments, they shouldnt, because they are never directly compared to Whis, Beerus, Vados etc. Your argument as for why they should scale is no diffrent from my argument for alien x. Whis siblings other than Vados have no feats or statements proving that they are> Beerus, and if I'm wrong about this, please do provide evidence. 

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    • @My area when did porunga recreate trunks and Goten's body? not that it would matter, because their body is not 4C without any ki, and Porunga cant recreate their soul which contains their ki. Trunks and Goten's body are human level without ki.

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    • 1) Where is that stated? Can you please show me? Reality is just a vague term which could mean anything hence its unquantifiable feat and isn't used unless the size of it is mentioned just like how Gogeta and Broly destroying dimensions(it was called reality even)is unquantifiable feat because reality size is unknown until explictly stated

      2) To reality and universe being same thing

      5) They dont have to because Android 16 and Imperfect Cell has proven to be on par while imperfect Cell stomps 17 and 17 was casually able to one shot SSJ Trunks who easily sliced Mecha Frieza who is stronger than first form Frieza who is drawf star level so here they do have feats through xyz scaling which is different from Alien X and weapons case when there are only statements tying it not any powerscaling from previous so its not com9

      6) It was not stated correct but both(Whis and Vados) has shown to be above GoD level easily so we can generally assume that other angels are comparable to Whis and Vados too and them being suddenly weaker than their siblings will not make sense so hence we can generally say that they scale to Whis who can oneshot Beerus and who along with Vados scales above Beerus+Champa feat while for Alien X there are only strongest statement,omnipotent,can do anything etc is stated which is only thing that ties Alien X with CTB or Chrono navigator so here we say other angels should be comparable as it will be nonsense if they dont until shown weaker but they made very less appearence so its not possible while here Alien X is not oniy being compared equally but is being compared to stronger than those devices so both are different cases



      Soul shouldn't be the only thing having ki,it was stated somewhere that ki comes from mind,body and soul or something like that so he indeed needs to recreate High 4C body and give them ki and their soul wont have all that power and he recreated it wit whole Earth in Buu saga?

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    • Guys stop detailing with Dragon Ball please, I get analogies but you’re basically starting a Dragon Ball CRT at this point...

      As for the reality point Paradox is clear that Eon was gonna destroy all timelines, all alternate realities and all of time and causality itself, Kukui and literally everyone else also agrees with this, the issue is how the Chrono Nav does it, not what it does.

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