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  • Greetings. So I recently watched a video on Gilgamesh vs Aizen.

    In which I believe it was quite well explained why Gilgamesh should boast Immeasurable speed. Not just Gilgamesh but some (not all) other 2A and Higher characters as well.

    Video link is here for evidence:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hOi1HLCT0k     (Skip to 4:15 in which Gil's Speed is mentioned)

    I am going to elaborate on some of the main points covered:

    1) Solomon's Arc in Fate Grand Order. Solomon's stated to have created a Conceptual Universe that's beyond and outside of Space and Time.

    2) It's even stated to be outside of normal temporal axis.

    3) Which also means that he's moving in non-linear time.

    And all 3 feats combined means it's movement beyond linear time. 

    Allow me to display the vs wiki's own definition of Immeasurable speed:

    Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)

    But I'm not done just there. Next I read a respect thread on CCC Gilgamesh:

    https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/gilgamesh-fateextra-ccc-respect-thread-1984736/

    Below are some relevant bits I found:

    The Moon Cell is an object in Earth's solar system that simply observes the Earth. Despite it being a relatively small object in the solar system, with it's reality warping powers, the Moon Cell can create a virtual reality marble way beyond the size of a multiverse within its domain, despite its small physical size in the real world.

    The Moon Cell's Far Side is anywhere from 5-D (stated to be higher dimensional, meaning above 4-D) to 7-D (it's description and properties seem far more impressive than Avalon's). "There also exists the Far Side of the Moon (月の裏側, Tsuki no Uragawa?), an imaginary space known as the trash bin that is used for storing malicious information and imaginary numbers. Sealed off as "Not For Use" information, it is a higher dimension where the light within the photon crystals is jumbled. It is the “exterior of the world”, and can be called the "Garden of the Fallen" built from imaginary numbers in contrast to the Near Side being a cell where the "light of heavenly fire" is imprisoned. Due to his power, Gilgamesh is not allowed to appear on the Near Side of the Moon, so he sleeps in the Far Side instead. Nothing else should be able to exist there because it is the territory of nil, and intelligent life forms should not be allowed or be able to exist there. It is not within normal time, allowing for a series of communications over eighteen days from Earth to take less than a microsecond within the timeframe of the Moon Cell."

    This also brings into question why Gilgamesh doesn't have Higher Dimensional Existence listed on his Genesis Mythology Mystic Code/Original power section. But that's another revision post in itself.

    As you can see, Gilgamesh in the world of Fate/Extra is so powerful that he exists in a higher dimensional void that is possibly above Avalon in his base form. And Avalon in itself is 6th Dimensional.

    Gilgamesh's speed in Fate/Extra is almost always interpreted incorrectly by fans. Many people claim Gilgamesh is billions of times faster than light due to him being sent to the Horsehead Nebula and coming back instantly, however Gilgamesh's true speed is beyond the concept of space-time, here is why...

    BB after becoming the Moon Cell is described by Rin as having a higher dimensional existence and perspective where she can view and handle the past, present, and future at once,

    "Rin :: On the other hand, the laws of the recorded universe are different. The perception of the recorded universe is over many dimensions…think of it as a higher dimensional existence. From this higher dimension, the third dimension looks like a flat scroll. Er, if the three-dimensional world is a world drawn in a book, and then if you jumped inside the book and came out outside the book, something like that? And then you’re able to look down on any point in your past, present, and future from when you were inside the book, as a record — that’s the higher dimensional perspective. You get it? Under these circumstances, all time inside the book becomes equivalent. Since you can always turn to whatever time you want to. There’s no past or future. It’s the same as that. This is imaginary number space, a higher dimensional information space made from light. The far side of the moon is fundamentally operated according to the laws of the recorded universe, not the observed universe. We are foreign bodies…no, guests. Creatures of the the observed universe that have been thrown into the recorded universe. Whereas the Moon Cell’s Core is a concurrent world simulator where all possibilities are calculated and the past, present, and future all exist at the same time. In other words, it belongs to the recorded universe. BB has become that Moon Cell. She’s obtained a higher dimensional perspective. So — BB can handle the past and the future simultaneously."

    Notice from the earlier descriptions of BB's abilities that before fusing with the Moon Cell, she placed herself in "unlimited time" so she could hack the Moon Cell. So we have base BB pre-Moon Cell already in unlimited time, and Moon Cell BB existing above it, so how can Gilgamesh keep pace with BB if he is only billions of times faster than light? Simple, he can't... Moon Cell BB stated that Genesis Mystic Code Gilgamesh is on her level, meaning that Gilgamesh exist beyond time just like Moon Cell BB (makes sense since he existed in the Far Side in base).

    Moon Cell Hakuno also makes an interesting comment...

    As for the Horsehead Nebula feat Kiara did to Gilgamesh, there are two possibilities... One, that the feat of him getting back from 1,500 light years was more than just distance, as Kiara threw Gilgamesh into conceptual space and into the Horsehead Nebula in one of the many universes in the Moon Cell (a universe was referred to as a mere sector of the Moon Cell, as shown earlier) in a different dimension from Angelica Cage (the realm where the Moon Cell's core is), and it shows a beam of light come across the screen and he is back instantly. People assume Kiara threw him from Earth to the Horsehead Nebula, making him MFTL, but they were in the higher dimensional Angelica Cage (nowhere near Earth or the universe in general in the Moon Cell), meaning Kiara threw him across dimensions into a random universe in the Moon Cell. Possibility number two is that Kiara threw Gilgamesh OUTSIDE of the Moon Cell's reality marble entirely into the real universe, and since the Moon Cell physically exist in our solar system, people use the standard billions of times faster than light calc, but think about it... Gilgamesh got thrown out of a beyond infinite multiversal in size, higher dimensional virtual reality marble into the real universe into the Horsehead Nebula, and came back into one of the deepest realms of the Moon Cell's reality marble in the blink of an eye; that requires way beyond MFTL speeds. Regardless, the fact he is stated to be on the same level as Moon Cell BB and kept pace with her proves he's faster than the concept of time itself.

    So once again, Gilgamesh's speed should be at least be Immeasurable at max.

    Though if he's faster than the concept of Time itself then according to the vs wiki's definition it may even be Irrelevant speed but since he's not 1A, I'll refrain from arguing towards it.

    If there are any points where I am missing, do kindly elaborate. I'd like to know why despite having a Genesis Mythical Mystic Code section for Gilgamesh, the vs wiki puts him at Massively MFTL+ at best.

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    • ....What the?

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    • IIRC the moon cell stuff was stated to be infinite in distance. IDK about immeasurable, but infinite is a solid thing IG

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    • Well we kinda did talk about that CCC characters might get infinite or immesurable speed. Immesurable by moving on timeless space, this is more in Gil. Because Imaginary number space is a timeless, it is even stated in Case File.

      Elm1
      Elm2
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    • John985 wrote:
      Well we kinda did talk about that CCC characters might get infinite or immesurable speed. Immesurable by moving on timeless space, this is more in Gil. Because Imaginary number space is a timeless, it is even stated in Case File.

      Beware the "Outlier" sign though, as it was Servant Gil who can move in the Imaginary Number Space, and it can cause Scaling problems.

      This dude did something like that, and got Outliered because scaling errors

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    • And whoever was it that the OP quoted, the one that says the wiki uses Horsehead Nebula distance as the distance, instead of a different Space-Time.

      No.

      If you chose Tamamo as your Servant and go CCC Route, there'd be a statement about her comparing how far she is from you to the distance between him and Horsehead Nebula. That's why the calc guy at Narutoforum used that a the distance.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      And whoever was it that the OP quoted, the one that says the wiki uses Horsehead Nebula distance as the distance, instead of a different Space-Time.

      No.

      If you chose Tamamo as your Servant and go CCC Route, there'd be a statement about her comparing how far she is from you to the distance between him and Horsehead Nebula. That's why the calc guy at Narutoforum used that a the distance.

      Even boiling it down to the basic definition of Immeasurable, surely movement beyond Linear time on it's own should qualify for Immeasurable speed?

      It's in the definition itself as explained previously.

      If you have a character that can move through Imaginary Space, then can it really be assumed they are bound by the laws of regular Space-Time?

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    • You're right in saying people moving in Imaginary Number Space should get the Immeasurable rating, I suppose.

      There are concerns of scaling problems though, such as whoever fought with CCC Gil, or whoever scales to the God Tiers, that's probably why it wasn't applied.

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    • Here we go

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    • KnightOfSunlight wrote:
      Here we go

      We are already hated by the Staff Council for making Fate 2-A, what else do we have to lose?

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    • Immeasurable speed means explicitly moving backwards and forwards in time via movement alone, such as landing an attack before you start to move, and being unbound by linear time. If this requirement is not fulfilled, and speculation is necessary, it should not be applied.

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    • Gilgamesh beat BB, who is already omnipresent and explicitly exists throughout an infinite multiverse and views time like a book. That alone should be enough.

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    • Omnipresence or advanced precognition and immeasurable speed are not the same thing.

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    • Moving in space with abnormal/nonlinear time would only qualify for Infinite Speed, yes?

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    • Not as far as I am aware. Infinite speed means travelling any finite distance instantly or an infinite distance within limited time.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Omnipresence or advanced precognition and immeasurable speed are not the same thing.

      did you just call viewing all of time like a book advanced precognition

      I know what the difference is.

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    • I do not know the context, but has BB herself ever been shown to move at immeasurable speeds?

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    • I think infinite speed for God tiers is more likely, but it could be possible for a few to have something like Immeasurable attack speed. 

      But with all the ability revisions, and attack potency revisions kind of took piority over speed.

      Though... Is there a summary of points for the OP..? There is a lot of reading there lol

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I do not know the context, but has BB herself ever been shown to move at immeasurable speeds?

      Nope. She only fused and existed in a place where time is nonlinear, the level of existence where you percieve time in a nonlinear fashion.

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    • TheUpgradeManHaHaxD wrote:
      I think infinite speed for God tiers is more likely, but it could be possible for a few to have something like Immeasurable attack speed. 

      But with all the ability revisions, and attack potency revisions kind of took piority over speed.

      Though... Is there a summary of points for the OP..? There is a lot of reading there lol

      1. Ars Paulina thingy

      2. Why does moving in the Imaginary Number Space not grant people Immeasurable Speed

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    • With Goetia's temple being located outside of time (Imaginary Numbers Space), it sounds like he should get immeasurable speed. Same for Amaterasu, since she isn't bound by time.

      Gilgamesh should then also get immeasurable speed if moving in Imaginary Numbers Space results in that. I think BB can also move within it, if I remember correctly. 

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    • being located outside of Time itself is only infinite speed if i remember right. Which appears to be more consisent, but something else we have to look at is consistency. 

      Gilgamesh was able to move in Imaginary Number Space because the alteration that BB caused by messing with the system of Causality. 

      BB pre-mooncell traversed an area of infinite distance which is infinite speed.

      Amaterasau is located outise of the time axis that should be infinite speed as well. 

      Though, someone like the lion king was able to shoot a blast from past into the future instantly to hit a part of sheba. Though we should eventaully do a CRT on singularities, but that looks like Immeasurable speed attack speed

      That ability that Goetia used to incinerate humanity should definetly be immeasurable attack speed unless we want to go the route that imaginary number space transcends and lookd down upon the mulltiverse or whatever. 

      These are just my thoughts, and the first few that popped into my head

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    • Well, I have very limited time available, and do not know almost anything about this setting. It would be better if you ask staff members listed in the pages linked below to help out here:

      Knowledgeable Members List

      Nasuverse

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    • ThisIsMySwagPack wrote:
      Gilgamesh should then also get immeasurable speed if moving in Imaginary Numbers Space results in that. I think BB can also move within it, if I remember correctly. 

      I'm not sure about this part. As even if it qualifies, scaling hell will Outlier it. I remember Hakuno also being able to move inside it too.

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    • It should be immeasurable because speed is distance divided by time. If you remove time from the equation, then the formula is inapplicable. This is assuming Imaginary Numbers Space is really outside of time. Someone should find exact quotes on that. 

      Gilgamesh can move in Imaginary Numbers Space because it's his home and natural environment. 

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    • Got it covered. But mostly it's about distance. What you're looking for is in the first pic.

      Another

      I suppose we make it legit just for him and whoever has feats?

      Because it scales right to his Base.

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    • It's a legit feat for him, but giving it to everyone who fights him is impossible. Unless Robin Hood has immeasurable speed lol.

      It really seems the authors just give feats to characters and don't care at all about scaling and interactions with other characters. So yes, I'm for the option of giving such rating to him and characters who have such feats. 

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    • Maybe make it "(Whatever speed he gets, be it Infinite or Immeasurable) while in Imaginary Number Space" might help with it a little

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    • i'm pretty sure it would just scale to 2-As, which robin hood ain't.

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    • @Diinou

      That would be misleading though, he doesn't gain that abillity from sitting in the Imaginary Number Space, it's just something he has, which wouldn't scale to other servants people will try to do that anyway though

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    • I remembered Jinako said she ordered Karna out to the Imaginary Number Space to fetch a game for her.

      How would I take this?

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    • Antvasima wrote: Well, I have very limited time available, and do not know almost anything about this setting. It would be better if you ask staff members listed in the pages linked below to help out here:

      Knowledgeable Members List

      Nasuverse

      ^

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      I remembered Jinako said she ordered Karna out to the Imaginary Number Space to fetch a game for her.

      How would I take this?

      Where did this happen? Because when BB threw Jinako into Imaginary Numbers Space, Karna couldn't do anything besides bending the knee to BB. 

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    • Jinako mentioned it when talking with Shinji, while Shinji was preparing against Melt. As in here

      Karna probably can't search for Jinako in the entire Imaginary Number Space, heck, you getting to your Servant after they were BFRed there is actually somewhere even BB can't go.

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    • I will unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints, but nothing will happen here unless you follow my earlier advise.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      I will unsubscribe to this thread due to time constraints, but nothing will happen here unless you follow my earlier advise.

      I have contacted Reppuzan and Solacis to have a look at this thread as per your advise.

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    • Rep's not in the Wiki anymore.

      Solacis may or may niot join in the God Tier thingy.

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    • Some of the basic points I'd like to elaborate again:

      1) 5D Space. The Moon Cell's Far Side is anywhere from 5-D (stated to be higher dimensional, meaning above 4-D) to 7-D (it's description and properties seem far more impressive than Avalon's).

      4D Space is what follows regular Space-Time. Anything above that is already movement beyond linear time. 

      Literal definition from Wikipedia itself regarding Five Dimensional Space:

      five-dimensional space is a space with five dimensions. If interpreted physically, that is one more than the usual three spatial dimensions and the fourth dimension of time used in relativistic physics.[1] 

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five-dimensional_space

      The Moon Cell can clearly go above 5D all the way up to the 7th Dimension. So how is this even bound by regular Space-Time?

      2) Imaginary Number Space - I have got the literal description from the Type Moon Wiki itself:

      Imaginary Number Space (虚数空間, Kyosū Kūkan?) is a type of alternative space in the Nasuverse, apart from normal space and reality.[1]

      https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Imaginary_Number_Space

      This alone should also be proof that characters that move through Imaginary Space should not be bound by regular Space-Time at all.

      Honestly, I feel characters like Gil; Solomon; Goetia and a couple more high Tier Fate characters should get a higher speed rating than simply MFTL+. It's not doing them justice to the basic powers they wield. At the very, very least it should be Infinite if people still have doubts regarding Immeasurable.

      But once again, if anyone has any counter logic to what I stated from both relativistic physics point of view from Wikipedia and canonical evidence from the TYPE Moon wiki itself then I'm always open to debate.

      And finally I would like to further add that this should not scale to every servant and not even every servant that's on the high tier list (2A) in Fate. Just the one's with solid enough evidence that they can indeed move much faster.

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    • Honestly, just the statements in CCC that stated the Imaginary Number Space is not normal time is enough to prove it's one of the 2 "I" speeds (Infinite or Immeasurable)

      But somebody may just go "I do not think that we should base such massive upgrades on very uncertain information" (It's 2 scans I have currently after all, there's another scan that explaons more about the Far Side)

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      Honestly, just the statements in CCC that stated the Imaginary Number Space is not normal time is enough to prove it's one of the 2 "I" speeds (Infinite or Immeasurable)

      But somebody may just go "I do not think that we should base such massive upgrades on very uncertain information" (It's 2 scans I have currently after all, there's another scan that explaons more about the Far Side)

      I am glad that you at least agree with me here. Thank you for that.

      As for those people, my only response would be: "Can you piece by piece break down the evidence that I just gave on this thread and then elaborate how such a massive speed upgrade isn't plausible?"

      I honestly think for those people, it's just hitting on their egotistical side than any logical reasoning. Claiming there is very uncertain information (when what I am providing canonical evidence and not just my opinion) is the illogical reasoning itself here.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      Rep's not in the Wiki anymore.

      Solacis may or may niot join in the God Tier thingy.

      Noted. In that case, who should I contact?

      I'd really like for either a conclusion to be drawn by the knowledgable members or changes made by the moderators. But at the moment, it seems things are going nowhere.

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    • TheUpgradeManHaHaxD wrote:
      being located outside of Time itself is only infinite speed if i remember right. Which appears to be more consisent, but something else we have to look at is consistency. 

      Gilgamesh was able to move in Imaginary Number Space because the alteration that BB caused by messing with the system of Causality. 

      BB pre-mooncell traversed an area of infinite distance which is infinite speed.

      Amaterasau is located outise of the time axis that should be infinite speed as well. 

      Though, someone like the lion king was able to shoot a blast from past into the future instantly to hit a part of sheba. Though we should eventaully do a CRT on singularities, but that looks like Immeasurable speed attack speed

      That ability that Goetia used to incinerate humanity should definetly be immeasurable attack speed unless we want to go the route that imaginary number space transcends and lookd down upon the mulltiverse or whatever. 

      These are just my thoughts, and the first few that popped into my head

      Being located outside of time itself is Infinite if it's linear time.

      Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.)

      Being located outside of time is Immeasurable if Time no longer applies in the S=D/T equation as you progress from linear time to a completely different aspect of time. I.e. Movement beyond linear time.

      Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed.

      You are right in the sense that a lot of CRT needs to be undertaken.

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    • Things about Nasuverse are having a hard time going anywhere. There's only 1 knowledgeable staff for this verse, while some other not-quite-knowledgeable staffs are aiming to bring the 2-A rating down, some are even aggressive about it.

      Not to mention some other ongoing CRTs.

      Anyways, I'll slap this Thread in the Nasuverse Discussion Thread, so Nasuverse fans can see this.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      Things about Nasuverse are having a hard time going anywhere. There's only 1 knowledgeable staff for this verse, while some other not-quite-knowledgeable staffs are aiming to bring the 2-A rating down, some are even aggressive about it.

      Not to mention some other ongoing CRTs.

      Anyways, I'll slap this Thread in the Nasuverse Discussion Thread, so Nasuverse fans can see this.

      Thanks a tonne bro.

      I really hope people open their eyes instead of making hasty decisions due to pride and blind rage. Because, I'll be honest I respect the vs wiki a lot but if that's how the people in power are going to choose to play their cards, then I will end up loosing a lot of respect.

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    • The sad thing? They already did. That's why I say it

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    • Hmmm. I can't quite agree by giving everyone that can move in ISN Infinite speed and above. Because, well, that would mean basically every 5ervant and some divines and DAs will have that speed too.

      Lemme take a jab on this

      First, the nature of ISN (Imaginary Space Number) itself, like have been said above. I would give that speed if, and only if, they are in the ISN realm. But that would mean quite not right because apparently anyone strong enough can enter the space and move in it and survives. This is like in WH40K case where psykers, daemons, etc can move in the Warp where our normal time and space concepts don't apply, but that doesn't mean both those psykers and daemons suddenly have Infinite and above speed just because they can move in it.

      So, i will give opinion the requirements for having "I" speed

      1. Can survive in the ISN 2. Can move in the ISN 3. Can enter ISN as they please 3. Can manipulate the ISN itself

      The last one is the most important because it can give legit reason to why the character can move in "I" speed. Just because you can move in it, be the Warp or ISN, doesn't mean you suddenly has incredible speed whole sale.

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    • So basically, only whoever are actually living there and manipulate it will get the rating?

      Sounds a strict enough requirement for me.

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    • The Time Temple also reside in Imaginary number space. And every servant manage to move without problem.

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    • John985 wrote:
      The Time Temple also reside in Imaginary number space. And every servant manage to move without problem.

      Lion King also said it was located beyond time in NA. Is this part mistranslated?

      Mash also said Merlin's Tower and Avalon exists outside of Time too.

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    • Yes, and so far, the only one who would have it will be BB obviously, Beasts, some god tiers, and maybe CCC main Servants.

      BB for obvious reasons, use INS as her main powers besides Ten Crowns and Potnia Theron. Known Beasts like Goetia and Kiara can manipulate INS iirc, though will need confirmations. For Kama, dont know. While for Tiamat, her body was moving in real space and can't manipulate INS as for most reason she doesn't have the intelligent to manipulate it, so no Infinite speed for Tiamat as she was clearly shown moved not in Infinite speed in real space and can't manipulate INS to move using it.

      Well, the strict requirements is because for one it can be clear who can have the speed and who can't. And secondly, so there will be no "OUTLIER" and "FAKE SCALING" knives thrown later on.

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    • 1'. Can survive in the ISN 2. Can move in the ISN 3. Can enter ISN as they please 3. Can manipulate the ISN itself

      These are interesting requirements. Who would fulfill these requirements outside of BB and Gilgamesh? 

      Edit: Makkurona already answered. 

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    • I don't think Gil passes the "can manipulate" part...

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:

      Lion King also said it was located beyond time in NA. Is this part mistranslated?

      Mash also said Merlin's Tower and Avalon exists outside of Time too.

      Kinda not wrong, because it said outside of the universe and outside of time.

      In the mats

      Ars Paulina. The Second Noble Phantasm. The Time Temple Solomon. The last stage for FateGO's first part. It compiles the human history converted into magic energy, a governed space. It exists in the imaginary space separated from the normal flow of time.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      I don't think Gil passes the "can manipulate" part...

      Materials say: "Gilgamesh didn’t see there being any meaning in the Holy Grail War, so somewhere in the darkness of the far side of the Moon (the sea of corrupted information) he made himself a room to sleep and dozed away to his degenerate dreams."

      So, this "made himself a room to sleep" could imply that he manipulated a small part of the Far Side for himself. 

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    • Hhhh hmmm...

      Well, there's another.

      Sadly the other Playables or Kiara won't likely get it.

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    • By manipulating it, i mean those that actively manipulates INS like to move around like BB and Goetia. For Gil, i'm quite sure he has something in GoB that can do comparable speed, though it won't be applicable in combat most likely because it most likely something like his space ship. I wanted to give the Sakura Five the same rating, but i then remember at best they can navigate through it, not entering and manipulating it as they like it, barring Kazuradrop that is.

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    • It's his spaceship, but he can still navigate while riding it, so he should still scale reactions.

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    • Hmm then that would apply to the Sakuras too? Maybe for Kiara too and in turn Kama

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    • We gotta find the line between "Free-for-all scaling" and "strictly for peeps with feats"

      Free-for-all will result in massively inflated speed

      While strictly for peeps with feats will fill the verse with speee Outliers

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    • Hello Everyone, I hope you all are having a great day. Okay, lets get into it. "second Noble Phantasm of Solomon. It is Solomon's Reality Marble workshop that exists outside of the universe and outside of time, located in the space of imaginary numbers." - https://typemoon.fandom.com/wiki/Ars_Paulina?mobile-app=false

      "Infinite Speed (Able to move indefinitely while time literally stands still, travel anywhere instantly, or move an infinite distance within a finite amount of time. Teleportation does not count. For further information, see note 4 below.)

      Immeasurable (Movement beyond linear time. This is why the speed cannot be measured. Given that S = D/T, if T is undefined the speed formula cannot be applied. This is the same reason why multiple temporal dimensions also grant immeasurable speed. For further information, see note 5 below.)" - https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Speed

      "Immersion (Can travel back and forth from the Imaginary Number space, and Real Number Space)" - https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Gilgamesh_(Fate_Series)?mobile-app=false

      "Gilgamesh in the world of Fate/Extra is so powerful that he exist in a higher dimensional void that is possibly above Avalon in his base form. The Moon Cell has at least eight confirmed dimensions, as the barrier around the Moon Cell's core cuts through eight dimensions, and was only bypassed by BB's hacking abilities." - https://comicvine.gamespot.com/forums/gen-discussion-1/gilgamesh-fateextra-ccc-respect-thread-1984736/

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    • Just as a clarification, no, moving in a timeless void or olaxe is not immeasurable, it is infinite. You can check a few pages, like Rimuru's, to see this is the case. Ars Paulina being outside of time, though, would likely not matter. The Shadow Border the protagonists use to travel is also entirely outside of time when it travels across Imaginary Nunber Space, but that doesn't mean time isnt behaving normally inside the Shadow Border itself. Being in a place entirely devoid of time and being in an A place that is inside a B place, when the B place is out of the flow of time but the A place isn't, aren't the same thing. Is like being in a submarine, the conditions outside of it aren't the same as inside, you aren't devoid of air because the submarine is in a place devoid of air. Unless there's a statement of there being no time at all inside the reality marble itself, in which case it should be fine.

      Immeasurable would literally be moving along time in complete disregard of its forward flow. Moving in a place that is itself not linear in time isnt the same because that's a quality of the place, not of the character themselves.

      But I do recommend trying to poke someone more knowledgeable on this kind of stuff. I think Agnaa did but I don't remember well.

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    • I agree agree with some of the folks who say maving in imaginary numbers space outside of time on their own could have infinite speed. However, I'm not sure I agree that moving within Solomon's workshop alone is enough, especially since it is described to be it's own universe in and of itself. In addition, it would be a massive outlier to attempt to scale all the people who have worked in Solomon's workshop to infinite speed. 

      I will make 2 exceptions tho: Prime Solomon could potentially have infinite speed since he likely had to go into imaginary numbers space to even build the thing, and full power Goetia scaling to this. 

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    • More or less my point. The RM would be like a bubble, inside a river, and the nature of the river outside is not the same as inside the bubble. In general I believe we just assume pocket realities are the same as normal reality no matter whwre they are unless described otherwise.

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    • Yeah, and they call Solomon's workshop a full blown universe of it's own. Given the extra context, it's safe to assume it has it's own space time anyway. 

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    • Apparently the CCC Servants keeping up with nigh-omnipresent BB only qualifies them for infinite speed, lol. Inb4 headcanon BB's speed was downgraded in the fight, lol. No. They scale directly to a nigh-omnipresent person in combat.

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    • Would this still scale to Living Gil or Ten Crowns Gil ?

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      Yeah, and they call Solomon's workshop a full blown universe of it's own. Given the extra context, it's safe to assume it has it's own space time anyway. 

      I may be wrong, but Dr. Roman quotes that the place has no concept of time

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    • Can't see it, this internet doesn't let me see imgur stuff.

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    • How strong do you need to be to destroy the planet in Fate ? Since Gil and Enkidu did it like Seven times as Enkidu rebuild it seven times

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    • Well, you can ask but not in here. But the answer is that while actually people like Gil, high tiered Divines, DAs, and Types can destroy a planet sized body without protection, the Counter Force is very strong in Fate that it can handle pretty much almost all Anti World thrown at it

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    • Alright

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    • 6D earth because Layer/Texture fuckery 

      anyways, i will agree to infinite speed. Neutral on Immeasurable, but id to see something more concrete for it. 

      Also, isn't there a thing about how Imaginary Number space is an "Eternal Present" because "Time is stopped"???

      Also, Gilgamesh stopped his own time when he entered imaginary numper space to perserve himself. 

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    • Not at much as "Time is stopped" but more of "Time don't flow" because there are nowhere for it to flow. Past, present, and future exist there simultaneosly, and worked on a principle of "Universe of Record" (On a level of the Universe of Record, you can see all of the Multiverse like a book, even parts that were erased, like the enture CCC incident)

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    • Well, peeps got something else to say?

      Thankfully, this doesn't have much to do with the "Normal People" Tier of Nasuverse, so it won't get it the way of the other CRTs anyway.

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    • No, I don't find that conclusive. Solomon's workshop doesn't seem at all to actually like time in it. It would be a different thing if he just doesn't age in it, but I am not buying it.

      As for Gilgamesh, I personally remain skeptical. I really doubt the Shadow Border is moving at infinite speeds, so traversing the place seems to have something more related to it.

      Besides the "not dying" aspect, of course. That is pretty important.

      And no, Enkidu and Gil never destroyed the planet, ever. They destroyed the upper layer of reality that humans live in, and only a part of it. You even see a shot of the entire Earth. But that isn't the place for this.

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    • What part of the CCC playables kept up with nigh-omnipresent BB do you guys not understand?

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote: No, I don't find that conclusive. Solomon's workshop doesn't seem at all to actually like time in it. It would be a different thing if he just doesn't age in it, but I am not buying it.

      As for Gilgamesh, I personally remain skeptical. I really doubt the Shadow Border is moving at infinite speeds, so traversing the place seems to have something more related to it.

      Besides the "not dying" aspect, of course. That is pretty important.

      And no, Enkidu and Gil never destroyed the planet, ever. They destroyed the upper layer of reality that humans live in, and only a part of it. You even see a shot of the entire Earth. But that isn't the place for this.

      You're referring to their Strange Fake fight while I'm referring to their fight when they were alive

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    • CorrectingYourMistakes wrote: What part of the CCC playables kept up with nigh-omnipresent BB do you guys not understand?

      What part of that can be done with infinite speed and that does nothing to get you immeasurable do YOU not understand? Get a clue what you are arguing about first, please.

      @ Dangai But that was the very same thing. Unless you are saying shamhat could see the entire planet at once.

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote:

      CorrectingYourMistakes wrote: What part of the CCC playables kept up with nigh-omnipresent BB do you guys not understand?

      What part of that can be done with infinite speed and that does nothing to get you immeasurable do YOU not understand? Get a clue what you are arguing about first, please.

      @ Dangai But that was the very same thing. Unless you are saying shamhat could see the entire planet at once.

      You can't do that with infinite speed. Get a clue on what you are arguing about. Oh wait this is Vsbattles. No one here knows what they're talking about. Even your tiering system is broken. I only came here to correct unbearable BB wank in another thread and happened to see this one come up. But you kids are hopeless. Ima hop off this website. My job is done here regardless. Peace out Type Moon "experts," lol! 

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    • So you can't even actually argue your point, merely cry like an ineffectual child, yet you profess to know better. So despite the fact Tiamat has nigh-omnipresence, you'll disregard that she still has a main body that is the one that needs to be attacked? And that ia the very same for BB?

      You obviously don't when your skull is so thick and your argument so crude and bad. Feel free to leave, such terrible logic would just make everything a chore.

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    • The BB you fight at the end of CCC is actually not the same BB that successfully merged with the Mooncell. Its 2 different BB's, but they are connected in some weird way.

      Though the BB you do fight at the end of CCC can freely alter her stats according to her will. She did successfuly cross infinite distance, and she also placed herself in the concept of Infinite time which the only logical thing i can think of is doing stuff in 0 time. So crossing infinite distance in 0 time the highest possible above baseline infinite speed feat??

      Isn't Tiamat only Nigh-Omnipresent in her final form??

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    • Tiamat is Nigh-omnipresent always, is the whole point of one of her skills which all Beasts share to some level.

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    • lol half the people who despise VSB are like: Nayyyyy no explanations things must only be what i leik lolololol

      Anyways, is BB truly the same case as Tiamat though? She gradually fused with the Mooncell, then after she completely fused, she kinda has a main body that when hurt too much, will separate her from the Mooncell.

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    • Okay I know this is slightly pointless, but like I wanna kind of elaborate in the scenario anyone thinks that it is an logical argument what CorrectingYourMistakes made

      Nigh-Omniscience is a property rather than a speed, so as such, it is defined as the ability of being approximately everywhere in a given area.

      If you'd have infinite speeds, it implies that in a given instance, you can cover an infinite area (infinity=infinity²)

      So if, let's say, an omnipotent being is encompassing a distance, of let's say a set of integers (assumption that there is only a 1 dimensional universe for convenienc's sake), that would imply the hypothetical last number of that set would be at infinity, and as such the hypothetical terminal point would be at infinity, and an infinite speedster can reach that every second (2×infinity =infinity too) so as such both the omnipotent and the infinite being are able to cover a said distance for a second. The only difference is that the infinite being are still needs a certain time limit to cover said area, while the omnipotent being just covers the area from the start.

      So yes, infinite speedsters can in fact keep up with spatially omnipresent individuals, with Immeasurable speedsters being able to keep up with Omnipresent beings across space and time.

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    • The point here is:

      1. What's the rating for keeping up with an Omnipresent being?

      2. BB isn't Omnipresent in the form she fought the CCC Playables

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    • 1. Infinite or Immeasurable depending on the type of Omnipresent (Spatially and Space&Time respectively)

      2. Idk lol I don't play Fate.

      Anyhow, I'll be unfollowing this thread due to the lack of insight I'll provide

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    • Thanks anyway for that insert, Zark.

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    • BB is fair to have infinite speed since that is literally how she made it to the core in the first place. Others though....

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    • Welp, we're free from the Servant AP stuffs, and what we have now are minor revisions, so I guess I'll get back to this.

      But, didn't BB make arenas to get rid of the Infinite distance?

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    • As far as I remember, she put herself in a space without time or that didn't progress in time relative to the normal timeline to have technically infinite time to hack the Moon Cell or something like that.

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    • Oh, that's the Far Side of the Moon itself.

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    • The Arena was there so help her baypass the Mooncells defense by faking a holy grail war

      Though you could argue immeasurable attack speed, and hax activation speed for BB because she made the arena, and manipulated the entire imaginary number space in the past, present, and future all at once

      Since infintie speed is more solid why don't we do just straight up infinite speed, or infinite speed possibly immeasurable 

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    • Definitely never immeasurable. She would literally need to move to the past or the future by speed alone, or do something like send her attacks to the past or the future.

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    • nvm on that immeasurable part that was because of her taking over the mooncells core. i had to re-read the section

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    • I still don't know why this wasn't concluded. Pretty straightforward.

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    • What's the recap for our last conclusion anyways?

      It kinda ended after the omnipresent beating thingy.

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    • I think someone suggested a set of conditions a character must fulfill to be given infinite or immeasurable speed so that we avoid outliers.

      Also, we should finally agree whether moving in an area where time doesn't exist gives infinite our immeasurable speed. 

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    • There's no agreement to be made, I already said that, the page for speed outlines it pretty damn clear.

      That's infinite, nothing more or less. 

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    • I think you fail to understand the reason why we discuss things. It is precisely to reach an agreement. 

      The only thing that I've seen from you are condescending comments that don't help anyone at all. 

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    • And in that comment you provided literally nothing and didn't engage anything of what I said. Movement in a place where there's no time is infinite, this has been the decided standard already.

      If you wanna argue if it is anything more, make a general CRT for the wikia as a whole because that's the standard set. Condescending comments? Now you throw in jokes.

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    • Maybe I am waiting for others to state their opinion, because after all, what community decides that's how it's going to be, not what you and I discuss. Not to mention that I have no intention of arguing with you at all.

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    • You are making no sense. The community has already discussed, the vsbattles one. They agree movement in a space without time is infinite.

      You or anyone else disagree? Is not a nasuverse thread anymore, is a CRT for wiki-wide standards. I cannot put this simpler, there's nothing to agree on when the answer is ridiculously clear, its already agreed on. And if anyone here disagrees, another thread to discuss that would need to be opened because it affects more than our profiles.

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    • Moving in an void/area/place/dimensions/whatever without time is infinite speed per VSBW standards and was something agreed upon by many staff and community way back then when this was a prominent issue

      Basically as Lancelot said, it's infinite speed and not immeasurable

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    • Infinite works.

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    • Um, yeah, that is very obviously infinite speed, since due to inconsistency in fiction, unless specifically shown properties associated with Immeasurable speeds, we don't assume it to be anything else.

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    • LSirLancelotDuLacl wrote: You are making no sense. The community has already discussed, the vsbattles one. They agree movement in a space without time is infinite.

      You or anyone else disagree? Is not a nasuverse thread anymore, is a CRT for wiki-wide standards. I cannot put this simpler, there's nothing to agree on when the answer is ridiculously clear, its already agreed on. And if anyone here disagrees, another thread to discuss that would need to be opened because it affects more than our profiles.

      Are you unable to understand that my comment refers to the thread as a whole and not that specific thing?

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    • So, who gets affected by this?

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    • "Also, we should finally agree whether moving in an area where time doesn't exist gives infinite our immeasurable speed. "

      Quoting yourself. To which I replied, is already been decided long ago there's nothing to agree on. My comment refered to that, which I thought was obvious and you got. Your second comment is about reaching an agreement, again my reply is about the whole "reaching an agreement about movement in a place without time" bit because like I said there's already an agreement how to rate that, yet now it was a comment about the whole thread? You are just being confusing. 

      And as far as I can see, only Tiamat. Gil is a bit maybe but most seem to lean for yes? BB is already nigh-omnipresent (I think).

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    • Nigh Omnipresent via she literally becamse the Mooncell. 

      Though she did cross infinite distance

      Imo, i agree more with infinite speed

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    • Remind me what was the context for the infinite distance thingy?

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    • it was before she she absorbed the mooncell. She had to cross infintie distance to reach the core

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    • I thought that one was above needing infinite time to actually hack it in anyway then putting herself outside the passage of time.

      If that's what happened, should be alright.

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    • It's sad this is being forgotten

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    • Get some mods to review this so it can get added. It's just 3 characters.

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    • The Content Mod named Matthew?

      3 Characters would be BB, Gil, and Amaterasu?

      What about other CCC Playables?

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    • They lack feats. Don't know about Tiamat or Goetia, but those three are pretty much it.

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    • I believe that Goetia and Solomon should also have infinite speed, after all the Temple of Time is said to exist out of time several times, even cited for not having a concept of time.

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    • That would require every Servant and the protagonist to have Infinite Speed, so that's a no.

      And I do believe we already argued it above.

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    • I think the answer is pretty simple. The temple of time may exist outside of time but it is also an artificial space time and universe, so we can get by without giving it to everyone who has moved in the temple of time. On the other hand, Solomon and Goetia were able to move in imaginary numbers space without the thing being created since they built the thing. If you wanna go another route, it's a massive fucking outlier for all the servants to be infinite speed, but it isn't for Grand Servant Solomon or Goetia to be able to do it

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    • I'm pretty sure the CCC Playables keeping up with BB is the feat they'd need?

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:
      I think the answer is pretty simple. The temple of time may exist outside of time but it is also an artificial space time and universe, so we can get by without giving it to everyone who has moved in the temple of time. On the other hand, Solomon and Goetia were able to move in imaginary numbers space without the thing being created since they built the thing. If you wanna go another route, it's a massive fucking outlier for all the servants to be infinite speed, but it isn't for Grand Servant Solomon or Goetia to be able to do it

      Nowhere in my comment did I propose that all servants should have infinite speed.

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    • I know, I was supporting your argument. I was more addressing Lance's concerns. I was explaining why your argument makes sense in a way that doesn't scale to all servants

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    • Desperate bump at this point so we can resolve this. 

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    • I agree

      So, who will be updated?

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    • Amaterasu, Gilgamesh and BB. Probably Goetia as well and maybe Tiamat, but not sure.

      I think we imposed a pretty strict criteria so that we don't get outliers.

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    • Did you forget about Solomon.

      As for Tiamat, she on her profile, makes PS for Gilgamesh and Enkidu at their peak, so maybe?

      Btw, if this is applied, some profiles will have to have their justifications changed, for example King Hassan does PS with Tiamat, Quetzalcoatl with Gilgamesh and Enkidu, and etc.

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    • I agree.

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    • We gotta change some justifications for MFTL+ people too then.

      Cuz there are people who scale to Living Gil (which honestly shouldn't have Infinite Speed, as he's not Ten Crowns Gil)

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    • I agree with this. It shouldn't be scaled.

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    • Btw I’m still skeptical on Ten Crowns Gil since the beginning

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    • Makkurona wrote:
      Btw I’m still skeptical on Ten Crowns Gil since the beginning

      It's just Power of Origin Gil. Ten Crowns has loads of names, like Domina Cro/Cornam, Ten Crowns of Rulership, BB's Staff thingy

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    • I don't want to derail things, but as far as i remember, he just got a power on the same level of BB's Ten Crowns, nothing more, to bypass it. He just got the authority on the same level, not the same authority. It's not known what kind of power he got, but that's it.

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    • The wording and the context implies he received Ten Crowns before his Mythic Code was activated. I personally was sceptical at the time as well, but I did a detailed analysis in the revision thread where this was discussed which made me change my mind.

      So, I believe living Gilgamesh and thus Enkidu shouldn't scale to CCC Gilgamesh when it comes to speed. I forgot to mention Solomon, but if Goetia is gettting this then he should as well. Should Tiamat get infinite as well and would that cause scaling problems due to scaling someone like Hassan and Quetz, as stated above.

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    • Tiamat can still scale to Beast III/R, who scales to Kiara and the crossing Horsehead Nebula feat, and Beast III/L travelling across a universe, so there's the new speed scaling.

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    • Yes, and Kiara scales to Nero and Nameless who crossed 1500 light years. MFTL+ rating for those characters is still solid.

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    • So just change who they are scaled to

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    • What are the conclusions here? You should preferably ask the staff members listed in the Nasuverse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here in any case.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      What are the conclusions here? You should preferably ask the staff members listed in the Nasuverse page and the Knowledgeable Members List to comment here in any case.

      Done

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    • Were the changes applied, and the justifications changed?

      It's also a good idea to put a note on CCC BB's profile why other Playables don't scale to her.

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    • I can do it now, but I need ideas for justification

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    • Enkidu: Should be comparable to Tiamat in her Pre-Dragonoid form

      Tiamat: Should be superior to incomplete Beasts, such as Kama and Kiara

      Kiara: Can fight with Hakuno's Servants

      Gramps: Should be comparable to most Beasts, such as Tiamat

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    • Is there general agreement on these points?

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    • Beware that the next thing people are gonna ask, next to "Why Gilgamesh speed is not Infinite": "Why don't Kiara and other Playables scale to BB and Gil's Infinite speed?"

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    • Can someone give me a summary as to why only the CCC people scale to infinite? I don't have time to read the whole thread.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:
      Enkidu: Should be comparable to Tiamat in her Pre-Dragonoid form

      Tiamat: Should be superior to incomplete Beasts, such as Kama and Kiara

      Kiara: Can fight with Hakuno's Servants

      Gramps: Should be comparable to most Beasts, such as Tiamat

      Done, what about Quetzalcoatl?

      About a why other Playables don't scale with BB and Gilgamesh, it's best to add to profiles when upgrade them.

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    • CrimsonStarFallen wrote:
      Can someone give me a summary as to why only the CCC people scale to infinite? I don't have time to read the whole thread.

      In addition to them, Goetia and Solomon will also receive

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    • If it's only the top-tiers of CCC + Solomon/Goetia getting infinite speed, it seems fine. As long as other Servants don't scale to them, everything seems to be fairly consistent and logical.

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    • This looks fine to me.

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote: Enkidu: Should be comparable to Tiamat in her Pre-Dragonoid form

      Tiamat: Should be superior to incomplete Beasts, such as Kama and Kiara

      Kiara: Can fight with Hakuno's Servants

      Gramps: Should be comparable to most Beasts, such as Tiamat

      Have you reached an agreement?

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    • The part you quoted were agreed, and applied.

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    • Okay. Thank you. Is there anything left to do here then?

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    • It remains to apply the update for the characters

      BB, Gilgamesh, Amaterasu, Goetia and Solomon

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    • Okay.

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    • If we are using that statement about Arcueid being able to being Amaterasu down then shouldn't she scale too ovo

      So why exactly were the CCC playables decided not to scale to fighting BB

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    • To avoid possible outliers. 

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    • What are the justifications?

      Of course, with the exception of Amaterasu

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    • Something like "Capable of moving within Imaginary Numbers Space where time does not exist" should be enough. If needed, a note can be written that to avoid possible outliers, only characters whose natural environment is INS were given infinite speed, as well as showing the ability to manipulate INS itself. With the exception of Amaterasu who has the statement of not being restricted by time. 

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    • What outliers would happen from scaling the 2-As to infinite speed exactly

      Normal servants don't scale to them in any other sense so it's not like they'd scale speed wise either

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    • ThisIsMySwagPack wrote:
      Something like "Capable of moving within Imaginary Numbers Space where time does not exist" should be enough. If needed, a note can be written that to avoid possible outliers, only characters whose natural environment is INS were given infinite speed, as well as showing the ability to manipulate INS itself. With the exception of Amaterasu who has the statement of not being restricted by time. 

      Yes, that's good.

      But, I have a question, just above, it was mentioned that Kiara can manipulate the INS, so why wouldn't she be updated?

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    • I have to unsubscribe from this thread due to time constraints. You can notify me later via my message wall if you need my help after you have reached a conclusion.

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    • I think there was no evidence or scene that shows her can clearly do so? If she can, then go ahead

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    • Because not every 2-A Nasuverse character should have become 2-A. I expressed my concern regarding that back then and Monarch expressed his. The fact is, we could make a lot of characters have infinite speed through scaling, but it would be bad. Because the scaling in Nasuverse is so terrible, I lean towards stricter criteria in revisions when it comes to upgrading characters based on one feat, though I feel we are too strict on some things when compared to some other verses where characters get insane upgrades based on vague evidence. Others wanted stricter revision as well, but if majority of the supporters believe that we should upgrade every 2-A character, then they are free to speak and we'll reach a conclusion.

      As for Kiara, I don't remember her being able to manipulate INS nor her moving within it, but if you bring the feat we'll discuss it. 

      We can go on and upgrade the speed on those five characters we've discuss and continue to discuss about upgrading the rest if the supporters want that. 

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    • I would talk about how terrible the scaling is in Nasuverse, but i won't do it here in this wiki, because i don't want to get butted in mid discussion. We can just do it in discord.

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    • I'm neutral about updating all 2-A, if the majority agree, or disagree, that's fine.

      Well, I think it's okay to update the speed of these five

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    • Well, the five have been updated

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    • Whew. Concluded.

      Now I hope no random peeps come in and ask "Hey! Why not Infinite Speed CCC Playables?"

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    • Diinou HotHead wrote:

      "Hey! Why not Infinite Speed CCC Playables?"

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    • So why would it be bad for those who fight people with infinite speed to scale to infinite speed. If the reason is literally just that you don't want to many people to have infinite speed, thats not really a valid reason to discard the feat happening. All the CCC playables scale to BB for AP and Dura already, but scaling to speed is bad because ???

      Tiamat keeps up with Gil and Enkidu, and naturally resides in INS, but doesn't scale because ???

      Enkidu keeps up with Gilgamesh, but again doesn't scale because ???

      People don't exactly scale to these characters normally anyway, sure we have the whole "Kingu=Living Enkidu, and servants keep up with him" but we already don't scale servants to fighting him in the first place, so speed wouldn't scale from that anyway, its a similar case for any of the other 2-As who might be upgraded by this, people don't exactly scale to them

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    • Like I said, I'm not the only one against it. 

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    • Did any staff members accept the change to infinite speed, and did you take the Timeless Voids Standards page into account?

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    • ShiroyashaGinSan wrote:
      This looks fine to me.

      There's this one.

      ShiroyashaGinSan, a discussion moderator.

      And we did discuss about how only people who live in the timeless void of this verse will be the only ones to get the rating, both in and out of this Thread.

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    • Okay then.

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    • It shouldn't be contradicted by their other speed feats though.

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    • Antifeats for speed isn't much trouble.

      It's the scaling, which I think would better be discussed later.

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    • My proposal was that only those that can enter, move, and manipulate the Imaginary Number Space would get the Infinite speed. If even just one is not fulfilled than they would not get the speed rating. Kinda like Senshinkan case where Amakasu gets Immeasureable speed but Yoshiya and Kriemhildr only get FTL at most, or other similar cases.

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    • Okay. The problem is that speed is often not treated consistently for timeless voids, as the speed levels are portrayed as far more limited outside of them.

      Read the Timeless Voids Standards page for information.

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    • Hmhm, i understand. For this case, specifically BB, it's shown and explained that the imaginary number space is True Void like in that page explicitly. Why the other characters don't scale is because they move in real space made by BB, not the imaginary space numbers, except for few like Amaterasu that exists outside of time axis.

      For Sefar, since i havent played Extella i will leave the case to other members. While for Solomon's case it's the same or similar to BB.

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    • Explicitly in Case Files, the head of a character that was beheaded was still "alive" or at least just barely finishing the process of dying after being pulled out of imaginary number space. That by itself should be clear proof imaginary number space is space lacking any passage of time.

      Servant Gilgamesh by no means should ever get infinite speed, but the one that matches to BB is something else entirely, I think, but I am not gonna get into a discussion about his specific case. Whatever people have decided works I guess.

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    • Okay. I am just concerned about that we might insert exaggerated statistics that contradict their portrayals, but am not well-informed about the issue.

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    • John985 wrote:
       
      Elm1
      Elm2

      Here it says time stand still.

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    • Okay.

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    • I want to establish that I agree with the proposal, but I also think it should scale to the strongest key of the Playable servants

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    • Wouldn't that go against our standard conventions regarding the subject?

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    • Meaning, don't we have a rule to only scale timeless voids to characters for whom they are a natural environment? We easily end up scaling from Plot-Induced Stupidity situations otherwise.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Wouldn't that go against our standard conventions regarding the subject?

      I don't really see how. Especially since we dont have any anti-feats for the full power playable servants, and they are supposed to be on the same level of power/stats as Gilgamesh/BB. It would honestly be more PIS to have them somehow be much slower despite being supposedly on the same level or surpassing BB

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    • ThisIsMySwagPack wrote:
      Because not every 2-A Nasuverse character should have become 2-A. I expressed my concern regarding that back then and Monarch expressed his. The fact is, we could make a lot of characters have infinite speed through scaling, but it would be bad. Because the scaling in Nasuverse is so terrible, I lean towards stricter criteria in revisions when it comes to upgrading characters based on one feat, though I feel we are too strict on some things when compared to some other verses where characters get insane upgrades based on vague evidence. Others wanted stricter revision as well, but if majority of the supporters believe that we should upgrade every 2-A character, then they are free to speak and we'll reach a conclusion.

      As for Kiara, I don't remember her being able to manipulate INS nor her moving within it, but if you bring the feat we'll discuss it. 

      We can go on and upgrade the speed on those five characters we've discuss and continue to discuss about upgrading the rest if the supporters want that. 

      I'm not sure which characters you are referring to, especially since the scaling is clean for the most part. Why would it be bad that many of the high and God tiers of the verse would have infinite speed? To be frank, it seems like you are pre-suposing something here that I don't get, but I can't put my finger on what it is, and I don't agree with it. 

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    • I don't know what you're getting at, but make an argument and we'll discuss it. 

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    • Preferably on another Thread.

      This one's concluded. But the "aftershocks" are happening.

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    • Part and parcel of Fate upgrades. You'll always find someone unhappy. 

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    • ThisIsMySwagPack wrote:
      I don't know what you're getting at, but make an argument and we'll discuss it. 

      I was more asking which 2-As you think shouldn't be 2-A. I need to know what you disagree with do I can construct am argument to counter the issue u have

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    • Iapitus The Impaler wrote:

      Antvasima wrote:
      Wouldn't that go against our standard conventions regarding the subject?

      I don't really see how. Especially since we dont have any anti-feats for the full power playable servants, and they are supposed to be on the same level of power/stats as Gilgamesh/BB. It would honestly be more PIS to have them somehow be much slower despite being supposedly on the same level or surpassing BB

      Well, the other alternative is that neither Gilgamesh or BB have remotely demonstrated infinite speed outside of timeless voids either, which would imply that it is a resistance not a speed in their case.

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    • How do you resist not having time? Also, how would one go about demonstrating infinite speed outside of a timeless void or other timeless spaces if that is one of the only kinds of infinite speed feats there is? There are other cases of characters whom Gil and BB surpass who are flat out stated to exist beyond the axis of time, so there is a supporting feat for it if you would like

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    • Well, I think that we have used "Resistance to Timeless Voids" for some other characters with consistently displayed much lower speed levels, but if they are also stated to exist beyond the axis of time, I suppose that seems fine then. The supporting feat should be mentioned in conjunction though.

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    • Strange. One of the main reasons on the basis for GER being infinite speed was the agreement that simply not having time cannot be resisted. But ok, cool

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    • Will you insert the supporting feat as an additional justification in the profiles?

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    • Well, i added the scans.

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    • That state that certain characters exist beyond time?

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    • One where it was stated the Imaginary Nimbers Space has no time.

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    • Well, the backup feat should preferably be mentioned as well.

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    • Antvasima wrote:
      Will you insert the supporting feat as an additional justification in the profiles?

      Sure, I shall do so, after they are applied

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    • Well, they have been changed to infinite speed a while ago.

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    • It hasn't been applied to the playable servants, nor those that scale to Gil and BB, or those that scale to high class divine spirits

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    • A FANDOM user
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