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  • Kingdom Hearts Woody vs. Frieza Saga Goku 

    Woodyyyyy

    I'm about to give you the ol' rootin' tootin' shoot'n'bootin'

    Guko

    I'm stronger than an ant... If an ant was... *this* big!

    Kaio-ken X20, Spirit Bomb, and Super Saiyan are restricted.

    Speed is equalized.

    20 meter starting distance. 

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    • Pretty sure it's this

      So Woody has an AP advantage

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    • Wait, Woody has EE and Type 2 abstract. In addition to AP adventage, he stomps.

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    • I can't believe this, but woody stomps

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    • His EE and Abstract existence are apparently pretty much useless outside of his verse

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    • Even in verse they are pretty much useless in this sort of combat, especially the abstract existence.

      Anyways, this can go either way, so I vote for inconclusive.

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    • Lucas Carvalho Santiago
      Lucas Carvalho Santiago removed this reply because:
      nah, probably not
      22:08, October 21, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • I don't quite understand his abstract existence tho

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    • Goku has no regen anyways, so the regen negation is useless here.

      Anyways, the abstract existence comes from his "heart", a feature practically everything that conventionally exists in KH has, but because of how it works, well, it won´t impact the match at all really.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Goku has no regen anyways, so the regen negation is useless here.

      Anyways, the abstract existence comes from his "heart", a feature practically everything that conventionally exists in KH has, but because of how it works, well, it won´t impact the match at all really.

      Still he has an AP advantage and like Buzz is somewhat resistant to pain not to mention the obvious equalizations in speed as Woody should have blitzed by now, So Woody just Yeethaws the hell out of Kakacarrotcake?

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    • Well, Goku obviously has more skill, but I would go for Woody in that case.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Well, Goku obviously has more skill, but I would go for Woody in that case.

      Also why would EE be useless it's pretty potent unless it just works on Heartless only.

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    • No, it´s Nobodies only, hence why.

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    • That's crazy

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    • I can tell, KH being in CRT hell doesn´t help pushing the stats and that stuff.

      Also, I´ll go ahead and point out that Woody may be getting an upgrade to 2-C

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      I can tell, KH being in CRT hell doesn´t help pushing the stats and that stuff.

      Also, I´ll go ahead and point out that Woody may be getting an upgrade to 2-C

      Welp if it all goes accordingly there then ZeNo will become Woody's play thing.

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    • Well, it seems Woody can beat Goku now... (?)

      Woody FRA

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    • There's a noose in your neck FRA?

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    • Shouldn't Goku be allowed to use Kaio-ken? He's only 4-B with 20x.

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    • Woody FRA

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      • inhale*

      woody FRA

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    • Changing my vote to woody FRA. Also, I think we hit grace

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    • Woody for reasons above.

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    • Lmao fighting prodigy loses to toy FRA

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    • Ionliosite wrote: Shouldn't Goku be allowed to use Kaio-ken? He's only 4-B with 20x.

      Because otherwise, you're stripping Goku of one of his abilities, which would make the match invalid.

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    • This is High 4-C G0ku

      Also probably unecessary Woody FRA

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    • Again, High 4-C Goku has access to the Kaio-ken, restricting it would make the match invalid. Only Kaio-ken x20 should be restricted since that's the one that puts him at 4-B.

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    • Shrug
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    • As everyone said, Woody for reasons above.

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    • Ionliosite wrote: Again, High 4-C Goku has access to the Kaio-ken, restricting it would make the match invalid. Only Kaio-ken x20 should be restricted since that's the one that puts him at 4-B.

      Sooo is everyone just gonna ignore this?

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    • Also how does woody have an AP advantage?

      6.44 Foe > 4.22 foe.

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    • Because 4>6

      I looked at the wrong part of the blog (the one that said 1500 Tenatons)

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    • Also 6.44E+43 joules isn't even 1 Foe

      So where did the 6 Foe come from?

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Also 6.44E+43 joules isn't even 1 Foe

      So where did the 6 Foe come from?

      You sure? Cuz I just put it into a Converter and it matches up.

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    • 1 Foe is 1E+44 joules

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    • mabye you accidentally put in an extra zero or clicked 4 instead of 3? beacuse 1 foe does equal 10ˆ44 joules.

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    • Bob8999 wrote: mabye you accidentally put in an extra zero or clicked 4 instead of 3? beacuse 1 foe does equal 10ˆ44 joules.

      Probably. Then the people who calc'd it should take a second look at it to see if the math adds up and if it was a similar mistake or it's revisions time.

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    • Well it still is High 4-C (If it is indeed 6.44E+43 joules, and if it is Woody nearly one-shots)

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    • And Glukose can somewhat bridge the gap with Kaio-Ken

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: And Glukose can somewhat bridge the gap with Kaio-Ken

      Kaioken is restricted completely. So that's a oof.

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    • Apparently Kaio-Ken (At least the original) can't be restricted as it doesn't change his tier

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    • I still think Kaio-ken shouldn't be restricted so the match can be added.

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    • Ironically with X10 it really would be 6.44 foe

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    • I have revised it so that Kaio Ken x20 is the only thing restricted.

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    • ArbitraryNumbers wrote:
      I have revised it so that Kaio Ken x20 is the only thing restricted.

      That's a lie and you know it

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    • By "only thing" I was referring to Kaio Ken specifically. My bad. Anything that makes him jump tiers is removed in this match.

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    • Woody FRA

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    • should we add this then?

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    • Goku still has access to Kaio-Ken now, just not Kaio-Ken x20 or anything that makes him 4-B. I think the people voting for Woody via the AP gap may want to consider that now.

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    • Grace period, give it a day, after which it can be added.

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    • ArbitraryNumbers wrote:
      Goku still has access to Kaio-Ken now, just not Kaio-Ken x20 or anything that makes him 4-B. I think the people voting for Woody via the AP gap may want to consider that now.

      Yes but Goku needs a somewhat high level of Kaio-Ken to match Woody's AP  (With x10 not even granting a 2x advantage) and iirc higher levels of Kaio-Ken come with higher levels of stress on his body which he wouldn't be able to maintain for long (And Woody could still knock Goku out of Kaio-Ken with Rocket Ruckus)

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    • How is he gonna knock him out of Kaioken with Rocket Ruckus? Not to mention he can maintain X10 easily to the point people didn't even notice he was using it against frieza. It's x20 he has problems with.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      How is he gonna knock him out of Kaioken with Rocket Ruckus? Not to mention he can maintain X10 easily to the point people didn't even notice he was using it against frieza. It's x20 he has problems with.

      Was he using X10 there? Could've sworn he was using X20, also I was more just saying that Goku can be hit out of it (Rocket Ruckus was just a general example since I don't really know how Woody fights outside of that)

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    • He was using x10 beforehand. Tien was noting he had it up his sleeve and King Kai pointed out he was already using it.

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    • Ah, alright

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    • But still as I've said before X10 doesn't even grant Guka a 2x advantage. Also what's the extent of Woody's type 2 immortality? (Since that combined with his resistance to pain could help Woody shrug off the hits Gawko lands)

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    • Combined with his own AoE(Considering Woody is the size of a toy even a normal Ki blast would be huge to him) and the fact that Woody's Flight is limited with Rocket Ruckus only that's a handy win.

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    • Woody EE's though

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Woody EE's though

      Non Combat Applicable.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: But still as I've said before X10 doesn't even grant Guka a 2x advantage. Also what's the extent of Woody's type 2 immortality? (Since that combined with his resistance to pain could help Woody shrug off the hits Gawko lands)

      It's just his Heart is an Abstract thing. It's also Non Combat Applicable.

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    • He's still toy sized? That's odd (Again not too familiar with Kingdom Hearts) was everyone else shrunk down? Or are they normally that small? Also his small size could make dodging Gulko's attacks easier

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    • Everyone was shrunk down to Toy size. Even the Heartless and Xehanort. And that would maybe only work for physical attacks. Ki Blasts have huge AoE.

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    • Yes, he´s still of the size of a toy, and yeah, everyone else that came outside (Aka, Sora, Donald, Goofy and Young Xehanort) were simply turned smaller for some reasons they had.

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    • Interesting

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    • Some World Order BS

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Some World Order BS

      I mean, while being big would have been useful, they would also just have turned inanimated as usual, which Donald´s magic didn´t for a reason (aka, Order), while Young Xehanort wanted to test them, so them turning inanimated every time he got within their eyesight is counterproductive

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    • Also has Gloku ever used odd intervals of Kaio-Ken like X13? Or does he only ever use round numbers? (Besides when he first got it and his max was like X3)

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    • Xehanort was doing just fine with his experiment being out of sight before Sora and Co. showed up tho.

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    • Nothing to do with this thread just curious.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Also has Gloku ever used odd intervals of Kaio-Ken like X13? Or does he only ever use round numbers? (Besides when he first got it and his max was like X3)

      No, he mainly uses round numbers. From 5 he went to 10 and then to 20.

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    • He used X5 initially on his way to Namek during his training and a x50 in the Lord Slug Movie. No named amount until Super though.

      EDIT: Wait 50 isn't odd....

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    • Bobsican wrote:
      Grace period, give it a day, after which it can be added.

      Grace was hit 5 hours ago with I'm Blue Daba Dee Daba Die (Alright, fine)

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Xehanort was doing just fine with his experiment being out of sight before Sora and Co. showed up tho.

      Yeah, he didn´t seem to care much, there´s probably more to this as seen in that one Ansem dialogue at early KHIII, but that´s beyond the topic of this thread.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      Bobsican wrote:
      Grace period, give it a day, after which it can be added.
      Grace was hit 5 hours ago with Blue Daba (No, I'm not saying your whole name)

      Just call me blue 

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    • The Previous votes are soley via AP though. Which gets mitigated by Kaioken.

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    • But he would initially have a 6.5X AP advantage and unless Gokurt uses Kaio-Ken immediately (And a fairly high level) Woody's going to be doing a lot of damage right at the start which will make it harder to maintain Kaio-Ken later. And it doesn't seem likely for him to start that serious against a doll.  We will destroy you all

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    • Again not really. Frieza was kicking his ass to where he could barely stand and still was capable of maintaing x10. Plus if he notices he can't just throw Woody into the pond or something, Kaioken is his very next move, he was ready to use it the second he ran into trouble with Ginyu. Along with his own far Superior flight (As he's not above using his opponents vulnerabilities) since woody needs the rocket to reach him and it's easily dodgable and a single blast will always catch Woody in it and woody can't do much but be bombarded by the plant themed monkey man.

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    • The rocket probably wouldn't even reach him (Extended Melee Range doesn't exactly cover 20 meters)

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    • Oh yeah it's a fire cracker. That's even worse.

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    • plant themed monkey man.

      Also what?

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    • Saiyans are named after Vegetables and can turn into Giant Monkeys when they look at the moon with their tails. His orignal name was Kakarot (Carrot).

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    • all the saiyans are named after vegtables and they are also monkey´s thus plant themed monkey man.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Veggietale's greatest hero

      fixed it

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    • He's just trying to avenge Larry

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    • Actually what is stopping anyone with normal lifting strength from just throwing him? He doesn't have the Lifting Strength to stop them and it is a form of BFR.

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    • Yeetus

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Actually what is stopping anyone with normal lifting strength from just throwing him? He doesn't have the Lifting Strength to stop them and it is a form of BFR.

      Depends on how far, I guess.

      But outside of that, nothing really.

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    • funny how someone like Shrek or Big Smoke could throw this version of woody around

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    • Anyone who's a normal human being solos so far as they throw him far enough into a lake or something.

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    • Woody can just go back to the fight, then again, it´s not like you´re tossing him across a planet or something.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Anyone who's a normal human being solos so far as they throw him far enough into a lake or something.

      well we, normal humans, all get blitzed by him so no, anybody who's a normal human being gets solod by him

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    • Yeah, and Woody has the durability to easily tank Goku's attacks

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    • Bobsican wrote: Woody can just go back to the fight, then again, it´s not like you´re tossing him across a planet or something.

      That's counting on him being able to swim back and traverse his way back. Something that would take us 30 mins would take him hours or days.

      @Blue

      Kaioken.

      @Go

      Speed Equalized of course :p

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    • Swim back? SBA puts the match in Central Park, so there´s really not much to swim in.

      Then again I don´t think Goku would do something like this in character to begin with.

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    • It would take woody seconds to travel back because of his speed

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    • And will he use it? What happens if goku gets cocky and thinks woody is a slouch

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    • Bob, Central Park has a lake. And it's a toy. It's not in character for him to fight it in the 1st place. And like I said before, he's not above taking advantage of his opponents weaknesses. Oh and the argument that he's small so Goku can't hit him doesn't really hold much wait either considering Goku can hit Gregory who's even smaller.

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    • Actually, it´s in character for KH Woody to fight, which is especially supported by SBA

      Anyways, yeah, Goku has plenty of wincons here then, but so does Woody too overall.

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    • I never said it wasn't in character for woody to fight. And Woody's sole wincon is AP. Goku can...

      -Counter AP with Kaioken

      -Take advantage of his Range and stay in the air

      -Or just Yeet him to parts unknown

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    • Yeah, but it has also been brought up that the Kaioken will drain Goku´s stamina fast, and Woody beign able to do noteworthy damage right at the start of the match further becomes an issue the later Goku uses it

      But yeah, the rest stay as solid points, but it´s up to Goku to do them, as they aren´t really the first thing he will do (Especially the yeeting one).

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    • Goku can hit woody, but will Goku try? 

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    • Hst master wrote: Again not really. Frieza was kicking his ass to where he could barely stand and still was capable of maintaing x10. Plus if he notices he can't just throw Woody into the pond or something, Kaioken is his very next move, he was ready to use it the second he ran into trouble with Ginyu. Along with his own far Superior flight (As he's not above using his opponents vulnerabilities) since woody needs the rocket to reach him and it's easily dodgable and a single blast will always catch Woody in it and woody can't do much but be bombarded by the plant themed monkey man.

      Repeating what I said to Souppy cuz that's the exact same argument.

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    • Oh, then this can go either way.

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    • I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Goku can hit woody, but will Goku try? 

      That's where the yeeting comes in.

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    • Yeah, I'm officially voting Goku by Hst master's arguments.

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    • Goku for immensely superior stamina, range, skill, experience, versatility, lifting strength, and better flight.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Goku can hit woody, but will Goku try? 

      That's where the yeeting comes in.

      Which was said to be OOC

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    • Also sleeping now can't wait to come back to see the votes flipped (Kingdom Hearts Woody isn't doing nearly as well as Toy Story Woody)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      Hst master wrote:

      I'm Blue daba dee daba die wrote: Goku can hit woody, but will Goku try? 

      That's where the yeeting comes in.

      Which was said to be OOC

      Except it's not. He's never even fought a toy before. And well, he's still a toy with below average lifting, he's not gonna do well in a tier where most have normal lifting or higher.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      Also sleeping now can't wait to come back to see the votes flipped (Kingdom Hearts Woody isn't doing nearly as well as Toy Story Woody)

      Normal Woody has the niche of being a wall that´s also inorganic in his tier.

      Meanwhile KH Woody has the niche of being another punching bag via trash size, lifting strenght and a poor amount of move options for his tier.

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    • All 12 of Woody's previous wins happened before he was a wall and then were removed because of it (With the only match that had stayed initially was 1 loss but then that was taken too)

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    • Also besides this thread I don't think any of KH Woody's Loss conditions are lifting strength

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    • Looking at his matches he either

      A. Got AP stomped

      B. Never finished the match.

      Dude has like 6 matches.

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    • Yeah, Geno's winning through AP and stamina, Sephiroth's winning through skill (And while lifting strength was brought up it was shot down as not important), and Mamori's range and AP

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    • And Cell & Popeye.... those threads haven't gotten anywhere yet

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    • I have questions for both sides.

      To team Goku:

      This was already brought up, but Woody is 6.5x stronger. To put that into perspective, if the gap were only 7% higher, Woody would instantly win with one hit. On the flipside, this also means all of Goku's attacks will have little effect on Woody until the former activates Kaio Ken.

      What is Goku's course of action going to be in this fight? While Goku could obtain some win conditions through activating Kaio Ken to even the scales, abusing his superior range, or just outright throwing Woody across the planet, at what point is he going to try any of those things? Is he going to manage any of that before Woody lands the very few hits he needs?

      To team Woody:

      While Woody being a toy and having Small Size could potentially give him an advantage and lead Goku to underestimate him, how is Woody going to react to Goku? He may live with humans, but has he ever had to contend with someone of Goku's size? Is it in character for him to immediately charge at Goku without fear and attempt to strike Goku with all of his strength?

      To me, it seems that both sides need to understand that while we, as VS debaters, know everything there is to know about these characters, the characters themselves know nothing about each other (going by SBA). You cannot base your arguments on what you, personally, would do if you were in your character's shoes while having full knowledge of the opponent. You need to take account what their initial responses to each other's immediate presence would be, and how they would both go about that.

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    • Well either

      A. If he sees Woody as a serious opponent that is genuinely dangerous, Kaioken. He was ready to use it shortly after beginning fighting Ginyu and at some point within the Frieza fight was using it while Frieza was casually toying with him. Kaioken also grants an all around stat amp, so he'd be faster as well, although that might be omitted if he's the naturally slower of the 2.

      B. If he sees Woody as a toy, yeeting as that would be a simple and easy incap mamuever for him to use, or even a Kiai. Goku's already shown if he doesn't really sees his opponent as a threat but they wanna fight anyway he'd incap or bfr of some sort, as with Chichi when he simply Kiai'd her out the ring after she insisted on fighting him. An alternate route is that he's already fighting Woody and decides to use his size to his advantage if he's not already nuking.

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    •  

      B. If he sees Woody as a toy, yeeting as that would be a simple and easy incap mamuever for him to use

      Excepte even with speed equalized Woody is fast enough to where Gukur couldn't throw him anywhere that he wouldn't be able to get back from, unless he like hurled him to the bottom of the ocean at 52c (Also since Woody apparently blitzes with speed unequal doesn't that mean Kogu wouldn't get the speed boosts from Kaio-Ken?)

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    • Well, there´s actually a "human-sized" boss in Woody´s world, so he has some experience on this.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: All 12 of Woody's previous wins happened before he was a wall and then were removed because of it (With the only match that had stayed initially was 1 loss but then that was taken too)

      Yeah, about that, what the hell happenned with the Greymatter thread? Even if Woody is a wall Grey can still kill him.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

       

      B. If he sees Woody as a toy, yeeting as that would be a simple and easy incap mamuever for him to use

      Excepte even with speed equalized Woody is fast enough to where Gukur couldn't throw him anywhere that he wouldn't be able to get back from, unless he like hurled him to the bottom of the ocean at 52c (Also since Woody apparently blitzes with speed unequal doesn't that mean Kogu wouldn't get the speed boosts from Kaio-Ken?)

      And Goku is skilled enough to tag someone as fast as him who's much smaller. See Gregory. And there's no Human sized boss in Toy Box. The biggest the bosses get are the Gigyas Toys which are toy mechs.It's

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    • Goku fra

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    • El gokun fra.

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    • Also due to Woody being so much stronger and being really small he might actually one-shot

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: All 12 of Woody's previous wins happened before he was a wall and then were removed because of it (With the only match that had stayed initially was 1 loss but then that was taken too)

      Yeah, about that, what the hell happenned with the Greymatter thread? Even if Woody is a wall Grey can still kill him.

      No idea, maybe someone removed it because they thought it was a stomp?

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    • I think we should re-add it to their profiles.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      And Goku is skilled enough to tag someone as fast as him who's much smaller. See Gregory. And there's no Human sized boss in Toy Box. The biggest the bosses get are the Gigyas Toys which are toy mechs.It's

      What about Angelic Amber?

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    • Also was Gregory as fast as Glukomen when he was able to tag him?

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      I think we should re-add it to their profiles.

      Probably, yeah

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote:

       

      B. If he sees Woody as a toy, yeeting as that would be a simple and easy incap mamuever for him to use

      Excepte even with speed equalized Woody is fast enough to where Gukur couldn't throw him anywhere that he wouldn't be able to get back from, unless he like hurled him to the bottom of the ocean at 52c (Also since Woody apparently blitzes with speed unequal doesn't that mean Kogu wouldn't get the speed boosts from Kaio-Ken?)
      And Goku is skilled enough to tag someone as fast as him who's much smaller. See Gregory. And there's no Human sized boss in Toy Box. The biggest the bosses get are the Gigyas Toys which are toy mechs.It's

      I was just pointing out that planetary yeeting wouldn't work

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: But still as I've said before X10 doesn't even grant Guka a 2x advantage. Also what's the extent of Woody's type 2 immortality? (Since that combined with his resistance to pain could help Woody shrug off the hits Gawko lands)

      It's just his Heart is an Abstract thing. It's also Non Combat Applicable.

      (Almost forgot about this) No not his Abstract existence his type 2 immortality

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    • Gregory was faster than Goku. It was apart of his Kaioken training to tag him with a mallet. And why wouldn't planetary yeeting work? He can throw in into the atmosphere, etc and Woody wouldn't be able to come back without flight. And type 2.....idk where that comes from, he's able to die in KH, they all are.

      @Bob

      Angelic Amber is a doll bob. There was no fully sized human boss in Toy Box.

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    • Then yeah, Woody has not much experience with something noticeably bigger (BTW, Toy Story 1 and 2 are canon to KH Woody)

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    • Oh Woody has aa ton of experience all right.

      He well...got stomped by that stinkly pete guy...buzz...the dogs....

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    • Ted Ed wrote:
      Oh Woody has aa ton of experience all right.

      He well...got stomped by that stinkly pete guy...buzz...the dogs....

      That's Toy Story Woody not KH Woody, and Buzz didn't even really stomp him (And he caught him by surprise)

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    • I can tell, KH Woody is stronger than "normal" because all of the world he resides in is digital (like Roxas at early KHII), so him just being weak in the movies is simply separate.

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    • And by Planetary yeeting I mean like hurling him across the world (And even his limited flight will still likely keep him from being launched into space)

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    • ABobsican wrote:
      Then yeah, Woody has not much experience with something noticeably bigger (BTW, Toy Story 1 and 2 are canon to KH Woody)

      While she's not human size she still was quite a bit bigger than him

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      Ted Ed wrote:
      Oh Woody has aa ton of experience all right.

      He well...got stomped by that stinkly pete guy...buzz...the dogs....

      That's Toy Story Woody not KH Woody, and Buzz didn't even really stomp him (And he caught him by surprise)

      KH's Toy Story takes place between movies. And like you said earlier, his flight is kinda worthless. Rocket Ruckus is extremely limited and wouldn't help him get back to earth as all. And Angelic Amber wasn't that bigger than him. she was about as big as the Dollhouse which is in of itself small as well.

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    • She was like twice his size

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    • Which again isn't that big. Woody himself isn't that big in the 1st place. And that's saying a doll x2 his size =/= a grown man.

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    • Also based on the previous threads on High 4-C Woody we don't count Kingdom Hearts as canon to toy Story (Unless for some reason we do count Toy Story as canon to KH)

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    • KH isn't canon to Toy Story. Toy Story is canon to KH.

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    • That's really odd

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    • Hst master wrote:
      KH isn't canon to Toy Story. Toy Story is canon to KH.

      wha

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    • Not really. The events of Toy Story 1 and 2 have occurred for Woody in KH.

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    • It kinda is if Kingdom Hearts takes place in between the movies. Since if it's in the middle then first one movie happened then KH then another movie. Then you can't really have one canon to the other but not the other way around.

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    • That's just the time placement for the events of the game. It doesn't canonically happen for the films.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Not really. The events of Toy Story 1 and 2 have occurred for Woody in KH.

      Unless you mean like an alternate universe kind of thing. If that's the case then yeah I guess it makes sense.

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    • Yes like that. No disney or Final Fantasy character in KH is their mainline counterpart.

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    • It's still odd

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    • Grace is finished by the by :p

      Vote count:

      Friend in my Boot: 10 (Bobsican, Joaco0902, NiccoKirby, GoCommitDi, I'm Blue daba dee daba die, Cropfist, LordUrien935, Soupywolf5, Tonygameman, Apex PredatorX)

      Gukarot: 5 (Hst Master (I'm assuming you're voting Gluek), Ionliosite, Frieza force soldier 100, Ted Ed, Anomalous N W I D E)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Grace is finished by the by :p

      Vote count:

      Friend in my Boot: 10 (Bobsican, Joaco0902, NiccoKirby, GoCommitDi, I'm Blue daba dee daba die, Cropfist, LordUrien935, Soupywolf5, Tonygameman, Apex PredatorX)

      Gukarot: 5 (Hst Master (I'm assuming you're voting Gluek), Ionliosite, Frieza force soldier 100, Ted Ed, Anomalous N W I D E)

      Nearly all the Woody votes were before Kaioken tho.

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    • The AP advantage argument still stands as at the beginning Gulkooo would be in base at a 6.5x AP disadvantage, and with Woody being so small (Putting all that strength into such a tiny point) Woody would likely one-shot anyway (Or come really close). The 20 meter starting distance doesn't matter due to the characters speed. And Golek likely wouldn't start with KKX10 against Woody due to him literally being a doll. And due to speed equalized Gokup wouldn't get the speed boost from Kaio-Ken

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    • And him not starting serious gives Woody the oppritunity to land the few hits needed to kill Laura

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    • Actually, speed boosts aree allowed, even in speed equalized matches, and goku can feel ki signatures that ttell him if the opponent is strong or not.

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    • And (Don't question why these are seperate posts) Woody's type 2 Immortality (Since it's just the same as his Toy Story counterpart's) would let take more damage and his resistance to pain would partially let him ignore the damage he does take

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    • Ted Ed wrote:
      Actually, speed boosts aree allowed, even in speed equalized matches, and goku can feel ki signatures that ttell him if the opponent is strong or not.

      Except KKX10 would cause G0ku (I'm running out of ways to misspell his name) to speedblitz and since Woody is faster with speed unequal the speed boost isn't counted

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: The AP advantage argument still stands as at the beginning Gulkooo would be in base at a 6.5x AP disadvantage, and with Woody being so small (Putting all that strength into such a tiny point) Woody would likely one-shot anyway (Or come really close). The 20 meter starting distance doesn't matter due to the characters speed. And Golek likely wouldn't start with KKX10 against Woody due to him literally being a doll. And due to speed equalized Gokup wouldn't get the speed boost from Kaio-Ken

      And as I've said repeatedly, Namek Saga Goku is quick to use Kaioken, and can use it in critical condition, after having his body utterly screwed by X4 in the Saiyan Saga (His limit was x2) he was still able to move quickly and still use Kaioken. Same with getting beaten by Frieza. Woody would have to Blitz him to stop him from using Kaioken and Goku ultimately has

      A. Experience with someone smaller than woody as Gregory is a firefly (or some type of bug whatever)

      B. Far superior skill

      C. If he doesn't take him seriously, yeet him.

      D. A method to close the AP gap and be slightly stronger.

      In which if I recall correctly, Sephiroth was winning against woody via skill alone and they were dead even ap wise.

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    • In the Sephiroth match both have the exact same AP as they scale to the same thing, but here Woody has the AP advantage (At least at the start), then again.

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    • Woody would have a much harder time hitting Goku, than Goku would hitting woody.

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    • Bobsican wrote: In the Sephiroth match both have the exact same AP as they scale to the same thing, but here Woody has the AP advantage (At least at the start), then again.

      Which again gets mitigated by Kaioken.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: The AP advantage argument still stands as at the beginning Gulkooo would be in base at a 6.5x AP disadvantage, and with Woody being so small (Putting all that strength into such a tiny point) Woody would likely one-shot anyway (Or come really close). The 20 meter starting distance doesn't matter due to the characters speed. And Golek likely wouldn't start with KKX10 against Woody due to him literally being a doll. And due to speed equalized Gokup wouldn't get the speed boost from Kaio-Ken

      And as I've said repeatedly, Namek Saga Goku is quick to use Kaioken, and can use it in critical condition, after having his body utterly screwed by X4 in the Saiyan Saga (His limit was x2) he was still able to move quickly and still use Kaioken. Same with getting beaten by Frieza. Woody would have to Blitz him to stop him from using Kaioken and Goku ultimately has

      A. Experience with someone smaller than woody as Gregory is a firefly (or some type of bug whatever)

      B. Far superior skill

      C. If he doesn't take him seriously, yeet him.

      D. A method to close the AP gap and be slightly stronger.

      In which if I recall correctly, Sephiroth was winning against woody via skill alone and they were dead even ap wise.

      Quick enough to avoid being killed in 1-3 hits?

      And pretty sure Sephiroth was also winning because lol-sword

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    • Schnee One: "Sephiroth via skill"

      It was via skill.

      And yes, the dude barely had a fight with Ginyu and Vegeta and was using Kaioken. This is assuming Woody is able to hit him in the 1st place.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Bobsican wrote: In the Sephiroth match both have the exact same AP as they scale to the same thing, but here Woody has the AP advantage (At least at the start), then again.

      Which again gets mitigated by Kaioken.

      Which Grook wouldn't start with immediately against someone like Woody (Pretty sure he didn't even immediately start with it against Frieza)

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    • And yes, the dude barely had a fight with Ginyu and Vegeta and was using Kaioken. This is assuming Woody is able to hit him in the 1st place.

      Why wouldn't he be able to?

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    • He was pointed out to have been using it already the entire time and was still getting ragdolled.

      And again, yeeting amd far better skill.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      And yes, the dude barely had a fight with Ginyu and Vegeta and was using Kaioken. This is assuming Woody is able to hit him in the 1st place.

      Why wouldn't he be able to?

      Same reason, Sephiroth's beating him.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      He was pointed out to have been using it already the entire time and was still getting ragdolled.

      And again, yeeting and far better skill










      'll

























      'll

      You uh... you alright there?

      I've already pointed out that the yeeting wouldn't work (Also grabbing would be a physical attack that Woody's small size could help him avoid)

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote:

      And yes, the dude barely had a fight with Ginyu and Vegeta and was using Kaioken. This is assuming Woody is able to hit him in the 1st place.
      Why wouldn't he be able to?
      Same reason, Sephiroth's beating him.

      Sephiroth also has comparable AP that he doesn't have to activate, and a shiny sword (And I'm pretty sure that he's also human sized)

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    • Karrot cake here has slightly superior AP that he has to activate (And saying the phrase gives Woody ample time to attack with the immense speed of the two and he's horribly outclassed without it), and skill

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    • My space was sticking for a bit, sorry.

      And I've pointed out why it would.

      Goku is human sized as well(Unless you mean woody then no, we don't up his size), can have slightly higher ap via Kaioken, and his votes wasn't via a long sword. It was his skill with it. If you get a sword as long as that but don't know how to use it it's useless.

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    • Actually yeah why does everyone let everyone else charge up attacks/power up?

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    • As I've pointed out repeatedly, Goku already has experience tagging tiny opponents with Gregory. Woody's size is far more a hinderance than a boon and is a far easier target than Gregory.

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    • Except his small size could actually let him one-shot (As all the strength of his attacks are compressed into such a small area, and the gap between Woody's AP and one-shot territory being so small)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Karrot cake here has slightly superior AP that he has to activate (And saying the phrase gives Woody ample time to attack with the immense speed of the two and he's horribly outclassed without it), and skill

      He...doesn't have to say the name, it's thought based. It's likeJotaro saying the World even though it's thought based. He uses it several times without even saying it, also speed's equal, he wouldn't be able to Blitz Goku even if that was the case. And people do that cuz anime

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Except his small size could actually let him one-shot (As all the strength of his attacks are compressed into such a small area, and the gap between Woody's AP and one-shot territory being so small)

      Not really. Woody would have to be propelling himself like a projectile to do that, not a simple hit.

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    • Except he always does. Well he doesn't always say it but he does always start by saying it once before doing thought based KK

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Except his small size could actually let him one-shot (As all the strength of his attacks are compressed into such a small area, and the gap between Woody's AP and one-shot territory being so small)

      Not really. Woody would have to be propelling himself like a projectile to do that, not a simple hit.

      Kind of like with a rocket

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    • The fact nobody even knew he was using it against Frieza already proves he doesn't.

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    • Except before all the thought-based less than a second KKs he said Kaio-Ken to activate it once earlier in the battle

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    • Plus he has Genuine flight. He can easily get away and stay away from Woody if wants.

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Except his small size could actually let him one-shot (As all the strength of his attacks are compressed into such a small area, and the gap between Woody's AP and one-shot territory being so small)

      Not really. Woody would have to be propelling himself like a projectile to do that, not a simple hit.

      Kind of like with a rocket

      An easily dodgable Rocket that he doesn't start with.

      And no he didn't. He used it on the fly against Vegeta during the 1st half of their fight.

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    • You mean the one he had to charge up?

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    • Yeah, in KH Woody can summon it, even at the start of a fight.

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    • No I mean his normal x2. He soley has to push himself if the multipler is beyond his limit, which is also iffy when x4 was isntant.

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    • Bobsican wrote: Yeah, in KH Woody can summon it, even at the start of a fight.

      Yes bob I know, but he doesn't start with it. He's purely CQC outside of the rocket.

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    • Which came after he said it once at the beginning (And times 4 was definitely not instant unless I'm like looking at the wrong version or something)

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Yes bob I know, but he doesn't start with it. He's purely CQC outside of the rocket.

      With the Team Effort ability he can.

      Also, he uses the rope on his back as a whip.

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    • He literally activated x4 mid beam and instantly had enough power to overpower Vegeta. And you can seem him activate it without saying it several times through out the fight.

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    • I'm not saying he can't activate KK without saying it but that he always starts by saying it once before going Plaid Thought based

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    • Also do you have a link? As I genuinely can't tell if I'm just looking at the wrong version but I definitely seem to recall him saying KKx4

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    • Hst master wrote: No I mean his normal x2. He soley has to push himself if the multipler is beyond his limit, which is also iffy when x4 was isntant.

      https://youtu.be/QpF_3bReino

      Skip to 1:02:48 he was using it the entire time. I'll try to find the sub as well.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      Hst master wrote:

      Yes bob I know, but he doesn't start with it. He's purely CQC outside of the rocket.

      With the Team Effort ability he can.

      Also, he uses the rope on his back as a whip.

      And

      A. The string isn't that far so that's useless

      B. That's game mechanics.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Hst master wrote: No I mean his normal x2. He soley has to push himself if the multipler is beyond his limit, which is also iffy when x4 was isntant.

      https://youtu.be/QpF_3bReinoSkip to 1:02:48 he was using it the entire time. I'll try to find the sub as well.

      I meant for Gukort vs Vegeta (When he used KKX4)

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    • https://youtu.be/WrdGFEhszPc

      Subbed version as well. X10 from the gate.

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    • https://youtu.be/KTkhh4WLvO8

      x4. He even says part of it in his head.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      And

      A. The string isn't that far so that's useless

      B. That's game mechanics.

      Well, him not leading with it in character is another thing, but he totally can.

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    • Also against Frieza, Goku (Screw it I'm just going to say his name) was constantly told about how much stronger he was and that Goku would never beat him. And when he had gotten there Frieza had already defeated everyone else, and then Frieza killed Vegeta. He doesn't have any of that against Woody

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    • Hst master wrote:
      https://youtu.be/KTkhh4WLvO8x4. He even says part of it in his head.

      So not only did he say it (Like I've been saying, well part of it) but his thought based Kaio-Ken is... him saying the phrase in his head?

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Also against Frieza Goku, (Screw it I'm just going to say his name) was constantly told about how much stronger he was and that Goku would never beat him. And when he had gotten there Frieza had already defeated everyone else, and then Frieza killed Vegeta. He doesn't have any of that against Woody

      And that doesn't change the fact Frieza was curbing him and that he was using Kaioken. Plus this is in character but with intent to kill by SBA, which means he aims to either kill or incap Woody.

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    • Except Woody will be nearly killing him with every hit he does land (And if Woody were to get close then use Rocket Ruckus that would definitely kill him)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Except Woody will be nearly killing him with every hit he does land (And if Woody were to get close then use Rocket Ruckus that would definitely kill him)

      That's assuming

      A. Woody lands a hit with the skill gap

      B. Bothers to use Rocket Ruckus as can start with something =/= will. And I know personally that he wont.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Except Woody will be nearly killing him with every hit he does land (And if Woody were to get close then use Rocket Ruckus that would definitely kill him)

      That's assuming

      A. Woody lands a hit with the skill gap

      B. Bothers to use Rocket Ruckus as can start with something =/= will. And I know personally that he wont.

      Woody could actually make use of his stealth mastery if Goku does yeet him (Like you so adamantly insist he would)

      And how do you "know personally" that he won't start with it (I mean yeah he probably won't but what do you mean personally?)

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    • Cuz I've played the game several times. He doesn't start with it.

      And Goku has enhanced senses since as a child so that's moot as well.

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    • Isn't that just you choosing not to use it though?

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      Isn't that just you choosing not to use it though?

      It actually is.

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    • Nope. He invites you to use it. And he doesn't lead with it unless it's through game mechanics.

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    • You mean Team Effort? If so how is that game mechanics? (Curse my lack of knowledge of KH)

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Nope. He invites you to use it. And he doesn't lead with it unless it's through game mechanics.

      Yeah, because he can´t do it alone if we go by that.

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    • Because the way they invite you to do their limits/team edforts is random. They only always lead with it through an item or ability or a change in their A.I.'s settings.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      Hst master wrote:
      Nope. He invites you to use it. And he doesn't lead with it unless it's through game mechanics.

      Yeah, because he can´t do it alone if we go by that.

      Why wouldn't he? It's his Rocket and it's not like other limits that need Sora because he contributes a large amount to it.

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    • Well, if that was the case, Buzz wouldn´t have to be in it too.

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    • A skill gap doesn't prevent Goku from underestimating Woody. Why is this still going?

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:
      A skill gap doesn't prevent Goku from underestimating Woody. Why is this still going?

      Because it´s Dragon Ball

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    • Grace ended 2 Hours ago :p

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: A skill gap doesn't prevent Goku from underestimating Woody. Why is this still going?

      And again SBA he's in character to try and kill Woody or incap. Not to mention literally all the votes were before Kaioken was unresteicted.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      And again SBA he's in character to try and kill Woody. Not to mention literally all the votes were before Kaioken was unresteicted.

      Then restart the match from another thread, as I doubt just saying this alone will make the voters change the vote accordingly.

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    • Bobsican wrote:

      Hst master wrote:

      And again SBA he's in character to try and kill Woody. Not to mention literally all the votes were before Kaioken was unresteicted.

      Then restart the match from another thread, as I doubt just saying this alone will make the voters change the vote accordingly.

      It would considered the previous FRA invalid, as the whole wincons of the match had changed considerably. Plus literally the literal only argument for Woody was AP, which has been countered. Not to mention Woody wouldn't know to beat him before Kaioken.

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    • The votes for Woody were not just for AP. They were initially for AP, Woody's resistance to pain, and type 2 immortality, and then Goku underestimating Woody was brought up

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    • And Goku wouldn't know to open with KaioKen, before a 6.5x AP advantage blasts through him.

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    • And even after KaioKen was brought up nobody changed their vote (Ok well 1 person did), which seems to indicate that everyone is still voting for Woody anyway (Also 2 people voted Woody after KaioKen was added)

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    • woody fra then

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    • how many votes do we have?

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: A skill gap doesn't prevent Goku from underestimating Woody. Why is this still going?

      And again SBA he's in character to try and kill Woody or incap. Not to mention literally all the votes were before Kaioken was unresteicted.

      Yes he's willing to kill but he's still in character SBA doesn't prevent him from underestimating the Woody doll trying to kill him

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: The votes for Woody were not just for AP. They were initially for AP, Woody's resistance to pain, and type 2 immortality, and then Goku underestimating Woody was brought up

      Still he has an AP advantage and like Buzz is somewhat resistant to pain not to mention the obvious equalizations in speed as Woody should have blitzed by now, So Woody just Yeethaws the hell out of Kakacarrotcake?

      This is the vote that everyone else FRA'd off of. It's soley via AP and resistance to pain. His Type 2 is useless since all that means is he'll still be alive he's decapitated or something, which is still incap. And you and Blue are the ones who brought up him underestimating Woody, which gets taken care of by SBA, and if he underestimate him, yeeting him into outer space(Which he has zero way to come back from as Rocket Ruckus's range is terrible).

      And Goku wouldn't know to open with KaioKen, before a 6.5x AP advantage blasts through him.

      And this has already been addressed as well. He can

      A. Use Kaioken while beaten half to death

      B. Has better skill and can dodge as speed is equal

      C. Woody's not a projectile and doesn't lead with his Fire Cracker.

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      how many votes do we have?

      Pretty sure you already voted (And grace ended almost 5 hours ago)

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    • oof sorry I forgot i'm just like in 2 threads at the same time and I got confused

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      Joaco0902 wrote:
      how many votes do we have?

      Pretty sure you already voted (And grace ended 2 hours ago)

      They'd have to revote. and it'd be if they do.

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    • Except Goku likely wouldn't just yeet him into space (And while Rocket Ruckus's range is terrible it would still stop his momentum and keep him from being yeeteded)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: And even after KaioKen was brought up nobody changed their vote (Ok well 1 person did), which seems to indicate that everyone is still voting for Woody anyway (Also 2 people voted Woody after KaioKen was added)

      Because 1 person actually came back. Not that they're still voting for woody. That's not how that works, FRA's for an invalid argument aren't just trasnfered.

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    • Except there's nothing wrong with the AP argument as it's still the main reason for Woody winning more reasons were just brought up alongside it

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    • Joaco0902 wrote:
      oof sorry I forgot i'm just like in 2 threads at the same time and I got confused

      It's fine

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Except Goku likely wouldn't just yeet him into space (And while Rocket Ruckus's range is terrible it would still stop his momentum and keep him from being yeeteded)

      And no, it wouldn't. He'd already be in the atmosphere. And even if he could, he wouldn't simply land back in Central Park.

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    • It doesn't matter where he lands as he could just get back utilizing his MFTL+ speed, also Woody would be able to react fast enough to not go that far (And that's if Goku can actually grab him)

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Except there's nothing wrong with the AP argument as it's still the main reason for Woody winning more reasons were just brought up alongside it

      And Goku wouldn't know to open with KaioKen, before a 6.5x AP advantage blasts through him.

      And this has already been addressed as well. He can

      A. Use Kaioken while beaten half to death

      B. Has better skill and can dodge as speed is equal

      C. Woody's not a projectile and doesn't lead with his Fire Cracker

      ^ There's a lot wrong with AP GG argument. It's also ignoring Goku has flight.

      And no one voted for the other reasons which are negligible anyway.

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    • wait so if grace ended then we should add this to their profiles

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    • Yes

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: It doesn't matter where he lands as he could just get back utilizing his MFTL+ speed, also Woody would be able to react fast enough to not go that far (And that's if Goku can actually grab him)

      Dude. Gregory is a thing. Saying he won't be able to tag woody is faulty. And Goku's throwing him at MFTL speeds. Speed is Equal. He'd be in the upper atmosphere before he can do anything in which case he can't get back.

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Except there's nothing wrong with the AP argument as it's still the main reason for Woody winning more reasons were just brought up alongside it

      And Goku wouldn't know to open with KaioKen, before a 6.5x AP advantage blasts through him.

      And this has already been addressed as well. He can

      A. Use Kaioken while beaten half to death

      B. Has better skill and can dodge as speed is equal

      C. Woody's not a projectile and doesn't lead with his Fire Cracker

      ^ There's a lot wrong with AP GG argument. It's also ignoring Goku has flight.

      And no one voted for the other reasons which are negligible anyway.

      A. He wouldn't be beaten half to death he would just be dead (Or mostly dead)

      B. While this is true he still wouldn't initially take Woody seriously (No SBA doesn't make this moot)

      C. He doesn't need Rocket Ruckus to hit him a few times at the beginning

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    • A. He wouldn't be beaten half to death he would just be dead (Or mostly dead)

      He could barely move and still use Kaioken.

      B. While this is true he still wouldn't take Woody seriously (No SBA doesn't make this moot)

      SBA gives him intent to kill.

      C. He doesn't need Rocket Ruckus to hit him a few times at the beginning

      You're relies on him "blasting through" Goku as a way to kill him, which given that he's not a projectile has no way to do this is also ignoring

      -Skill difference that wpody would even touch him

      -Lifting difference as Woody is a toy, he can get grabbed and stepped on and his otherwise helpless.

      -His range is terrible, Goku has several ranged attacks with AoE that woody will be caught in no matter what.

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    • C. He doesn't need Rocket Ruckus to hit him a few times at the beginning

      You're relies on him "blasting through" Goku as a way to kill him, which given that he's not a projectile has no way to do this is also ignoring

      -Skill difference that wpody would even touch him

      -Lifting difference as Woody is a toy, he can get grabbed and stepped on and his otherwise helpless.

      -His range is terrible, Goku has several ranged attacks with AoE that woody will be caught in no matter what.

      I'm not saying he would blast through him (That was an exaggeration) I'm saying he would kill him with just a few hits

      Also the lifting strength difference wouldn't matter if Goku couldn't grab him (And with his small size he could avoid that)

      His range wouldn't matter when he can close any gap between them really fast due to MFTL+ speeds (And if Goku tried to make some distance then because speed is equal they wouldn't really be getting anywhere)

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    • Also the lifting strength difference wouldn't matter if Goku couldn't grab him (And with his small size he could avoid that)

      .....I feel like you're just ignoring Gregory at this point. Small Size is completely irrelevant to Goku.

      His range wouldn't matter when he can close any gap between them really fast due to MFTL+ speeds (And if Goku tried to make some distance then because speed is equal they wouldn't really be getting anywhere)

      Yes it would considering

      A. It's the same speed.

      B. Goku has flight. He can fly as high as he likes while Woody cannot, as you yourself has acknowledged Rocket Ruckus's range is pathethicaly low.

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    • hey I think hst master has a point...

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    • Woody Can actually abuse his small size (And you even acknowledged Woody's size would let him dodge Goku's physical attacks)

      Fly really high and then what? nuke the ground below him? From that distance Woody would have ample time to dodge his attacks and while Goku has heightened senses Woody's stealth mastery would certainly help when Goku's so far above him

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    • Hst master wrote: Bob, Central Park has a lake. And it's a toy. It's not in character for him to fight it in the 1st place. And like I said before, he's not above taking advantage of his opponents weaknesses. Oh and the argument that he's small so Goku can't hit him doesn't really hold much wait either considering Goku can hit Gregory who's even smaller.

      ^ In which case I then mentioned Gregory.

      Fly really high and then what? nuke the ground below him? From that distance Woody would have ample time to dodge his attacks and while Goku has heightened senses Woody's stealth mastery would certainly help when Goku's so far above him

      No it wouldn't. Considering Woody's still a toy and all the blasts are the speed as him he will get hit and bombarded by them and caught in the blast radius as some point. And no it won't. He's had the ability to see small objects over large distances since he was a kid.

      Woody's only advantage is AP while Goku has the versatility to counter.

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    • Unless he's using KKX10 for all of that then the energy blasts will do little to no damage

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    • Also yes he's a toy. A toy that can punch with the energy of multiple supernovas, and move at similar speeds to Goku. And if Goku's flying really high in the air then yeah Woody absolutely would be able to dodge his attacks

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Unless he's using KKX10 for all of that then the energy blasts will do little to no damage

      And nothing stops him from using it. Also stealth mastery is useless as well besides being countered by enhanced senses; Goku's Blasts would clear out the park and most of if not all of Manhattan along with it if Ki control wasn't a thing. He'd be plain as day to see, enhanced senses or no.

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    • Would he really destroy all of Manhattan to kill Woody? He definitely doesn't seem like the kind of fighter to start a fight against a seemingly harmless doll by going KKX10 and nuking a city

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Also yes he's a toy. A toy that can punch with the energy of multiple supernovas, and move at similar speeds to Goku. And if Goku's flying really high in the air then yeah Woody absolutely would be able to dodge his attacks

      Also yes he's a toy. A toy that can punch with the energy of multiple supernovas, and move at similar speeds to Goku.

      This would matter with him getting caught in his blasts how?

      Goku's flying really high in the air then yeah Woody absolutely would be able to dodge his attacks

      No, he wouldn't, they're moving at the exact same speed as he is and has huge AoE. Simply saying that he could dodge them because Goku's far away is faulty.

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    • Also you seem to be misinterpreting what SBA does to characters. Goku would just be willing to kill Woody he would still make the same mistakes, he wouldn't not underestimate him just because he's willing to kill him

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Also you seem to be misinterpreting what SBA does to characters. Goku would just be willing to kill Woody he would still make the same mistakes, he wouldn't not underestimate him just because he's willing to kill him

      And he's never fought a toy to say that he would "make the same mistakes."

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Also yes he's a toy. A toy that can punch with the energy of multiple supernovas, and move at similar speeds to Goku. And if Goku's flying really high in the air then yeah Woody absolutely would be able to dodge his attacks

      Also yes he's a toy. A toy that can punch with the energy of multiple supernovas, and move at similar speeds to Goku.

      This would matter with him getting caught in his blasts how?

      Goku's flying really high in the air then yeah Woody absolutely would be able to dodge his attacks

      No, he wouldn't, they're moving at the exact same speed as he is and has huge AoE. Simply saying that he could dodge them because Goku's far away is faulty.

      Because unless he goes KKX10 basically right at the beginning of the battle he gets killed by pure AP and if he blasts him without KKx10 then his blasts will be 6.5x less then Woody's durability, their AoE doesn't matter when they're barely doing any damage.

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    • And even if he gets KKx10 off he only gets a 1.5x AP advantage

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote: Also you seem to be misinterpreting what SBA does to characters. Goku would just be willing to kill Woody he would still make the same mistakes, he wouldn't not underestimate him just because he's willing to kill him

      And he's never fought a toy to say that he would "make the same mistakes."

      By same mistakes I mean like the same mistakes he would make even if he wasn't willing to kill

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    • Because unless he goes KKX10 basically right at the beginning of the battle he gets killed by pure AP and if he blasts him without KKx10 then his blasts will be 6.5x less then Woody's durability, their AoE doesn't matter when they're barely doing any damage.

      This is again, assuming that woody gets a hit ot mutliple by the time Goku widens the gap between them. And dude, there's nothing stopping him from using Kaioken, so why are you bringing up his blasts will do no damage.

      And even if he gets KKx10 off he only gets a 1.5x AP advantage

      And woody loses the sole advantage he had and Goku gains Versatility and AP.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Because unless he goes KKX10 basically right at the beginning of the battle he gets killed by pure AP and if he blasts him without KKx10 then his blasts will be 6.5x less then Woody's durability, their AoE doesn't matter when they're barely doing any damage.

      This is again, assuming that woody gets a hit ot mutliple by the time Goku widens the gap between them. And dude, there's nothing stopping him from using Kaioken, so why are you bringing up his blasts will do no damage.

      Nothing's stopping him he's just not likely to use KKx10 before Woody kills him

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    • Nothing's stopping him he's just not likely to use KKx10 before Woody kills him

      And this is highly assumptive. Especially since woody wouldn't know to beat him before he uses it.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      Nothing's stopping him he's just not likely to use KKx10 before Woody kills himAnd this is highly assumptive. Especially since woody wouldn't know to beat him before he uses it.

      It's also pretty assumptive to say he would start all out against Woody, when he has no experience fighting someone like Woody (He didn't really fight Gregory), while Woody has experience fighting larger foes (Heh get it?), although not quite as large as Goku. And he's also willing to kill Goku

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote:

      Hst master wrote:
      Nothing's stopping him he's just not likely to use KKx10 before Woody kills himAnd this is highly assumptive. Especially since woody wouldn't know to beat him before he uses it.

      It's also pretty assumptive to say he would start all out against Woody, when he has no experience fighting someone like Woody (He didn't really fight Gregory), while Woody has experience fighting larger foes (Heh get it?), although not quite as large as Goku. And he's also willing to kill Goku

      Didn't say he would go all, simply said he'd be quick to use Kaioken, there's a difference. And again, he has experience catching and tagging Gregory, as he had to in order to continue his training, everyone did. Woody's only experience fighting "larger foes" were other toys with Sora, Donald, Goofy, and Buzz who were also toys. He's never fought actual Grown Human beings. And no I don't

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    • Hst master wrote:

      Soupywolf5 wrote:


      Hst master wrote:
      Nothing's stopping him he's just not likely to use KKx10 before Woody kills himAnd this is highly assumptive. Especially since woody wouldn't know to beat him before he uses it.
      It's also pretty assumptive to say he would start all out against Woody, when he has no experience fighting someone like Woody (He didn't really fight Gregory), while Woody has experience fighting larger foes (Heh get it?), although not quite as large as Goku. And he's also willing to kill Goku
      Didn't say he would go all, simply said he'd be quick to use Kaioken, there's a difference. And again, he has experience catching and tagging Gregory, as he had to in order to continue his training, everyone did. Woody's only experience fighting "larger foes" were other toys with Sora, Donald, Goofy, and Buzz who were also toys. He's never fought actual Grown Human beings. And no I don't

      Yes catching him, not fighting him. And I said none of them were as large as Goku but since Goku's so much bigger that would encourage Woody to start by hitting him as hard as possible (And he would actually probably use Rocket Ruckus early in that case) Everyone beith a Critic

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    • Bloodlust Woody ovo

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    • If you can catch something, you can hit it especially since he passed by hitting him. Again Speed is Equal. And again that doesn't mean he'd use RR off the bat, or that it's not dodgable. As soon as Goku gets in the air or uses Kaioken it's his win. Woody would have to blitz to prevent that which he can't cuz as soon as Goku notices a toy is as fast as he is, it's Kaioken time or yeeting time.

      And I genuinely didn't get it.

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    • Why would seeing Woody is as fast as him encourage him to use Kaio-Ken? (He's actually faster but you know speed equal and all) If anything that would cause Goku to not use it since he would try to get a good fight (In which case Woody gets his hits and it's done). And the joke was cuz they're star level characters so...foe...you know? Why do I even bother?

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    • Soupywolf5 wrote: Why would seeing Woody is as fast as him encourage him to use Kaio-Ken? (He's actually faster but you know speed equal and all) If anything that would cause Goku to not use it since he would try to get a good fight (In which case Woody gets his hits and it's done). And the joke was cuz they're star level characters so...foe...you know?

      Why? You're argument is that he definitely wouldn't take woody seriously because he's a toy, seeing that woody is as fast as him undermines that and Namek Goku is the last time he's really trigger happy with Kaioken. Not to mention the "Woody will kill him before he uses it" argument is faulty given that he can even activate it while being hit. If Woody gets a hit, he immediately responds with Kaioken to close that gap as even x5 leads to less than 1 AP difference. And I get it now.

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    • It's because I know nothing about debating

      Except when that hit nearly kills him, and if he just uses standard KaioKen then the gap is still 3.25x. If he sees Woody is as fast as him he won't automatically think that he's stupidly stronger then him

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    • He only uses x5 and x10 in Namek He uses x100 too but that's restricted . And strength scales to speed in DB. So if he sees Woody's as fast he's gonna automatically assume he's as strong and if he's hit he's definitely gonna know and respond with Kaioken. Woody would again need to Blitz and somehow prevent Goku from going Kaioken or just jumping or flying.

      He only needs x5 to make AP not a problem

      He needs x10 to give himself the advantage.

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    • Hst master wrote:
      He only uses x5 and x10 in Namek He uses x100 too but that's restricted . And strength scales to speed in DB. So if he sees Woody's as fast he's gonna automatically assume he's as strong and if he's hit he's definitely gonna know and respond with Kaioken. Woody would again need to Blitz and somehow prevent Goku from going Kaioken or just jumping or flying.

      He only needs x5 to make AP not a problem

      He needs x10 to give himself the advantage.

      Ahh....screw it GG Goku FRA

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    • If the Woody votes really are nulled then:

      Woody: 2 (Apex PredatorX his vote was after KaioKen was added,Joaco0902 revoted)

      Goku: 6 (Ionliosite, Frieza force soldier 100, Ted Ed, Anomalous N I W D E, Soupywolf5, Hst master you are voting Goku right?)

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    • A Goku thread that didn't go to shit Hallelujah And yes I am.

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    • Alright then Goku just needs 1 more vote

      Now to remake the same thing but with bloodlusted Woody ovo

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    • Also since Base Goku’s now less than one foe KKx20 Goku shouldn’t be 4-B anymore

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    • And I asked the one who calc'd it. He said he probably made a mistake but he didn't specify whether it was with the Joules or the foe. Oh and he'd still be 4-B. Frieza 50% has a 4-B feat.

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    • Oh no I’m aware of Frieza’s 4-B feat

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    • No I’m not that’s a lie. What is it?

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    • Alright, thanks

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    • Another thing; Goku wouldn't underestimate Woody because ki sense enables him to tell how powerful Woody really is.

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    • Ki is one of those things that get verse equalized or something?

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    • I think so.

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    • I'm curious as to why you chose to go with Anime Z Goku instead of Manga Z Goku. Where he's High 4-C in the heckin' Buu Saga if I'm looking at this right.

      Goku having to go SSJ or more to fight Woody just.. tickles me..

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    • Pretty sure Manga Z Buu Saga Goku’s High 4-C+

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    • Also I wish to make a thread on a character that doesn’t have any but I don’t know how Because I’m terrible

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    • I love how this wikia flat out ignores the Super Saiyan Grades and assume its just SSJ1, SSJ2 and SSJ3.

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    • So, what is it? 6 for Goku and 2 for Woody?

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    • I think so

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    • So whose going to put the nail in the Cowboi’s coffin?

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    • Goku FRA.

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    • GRACE

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    • 11 days ago.

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    • Woody's not High 4-C anymore, this was added, but then it was removed as it became invalid

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    • A FANDOM user
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