FANDOM


  • DarkDragonMedeus
    DarkDragonMedeus closed this thread because:
    Getting far too chaotic
    15:53, October 5, 2019

    This is a continuation of the previous thread.

    https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3556639


    So, following off of the absolute success my last DBS revision thread was, we now have this.

    Goku and Beerus’ clash is at the moment considered Tier 3, because of the statements of Goku and Beerus turning Universe 7 into a void and that there would be nothing left in the universe, implying they’re only affecting matter.

    However, there’s more statements and evidence pointing to it being a Tier 2 feat than a Tier 3 one. It should also be noted that the definition of universe in the original Japanese would be Low 2-C, not 3-A.

    The Living World is stated in the Daizenshuu to resemble our universe in reality. As our IRL universe is a space-time continuum, the Living World would also be a space-time continuum. Hence the word “reality”. It’s even compared to sci-fi verses like Star Wars, which has a space-time continuum. 

    Goku and Beerus’ clash was being felt inand would have destroyed the Kaioshin realm. This directly contradicts the notion that they’d only be destroying matter in the universe, since the Kaioshin realm is located outside of Universe 7Even in the manga it’s shown outside the universe, so the notion that it’s one big continuum is shaky especially when the realm of the Kaioshin realm looks to have its own space-time bubble. 

    The majority of statements in the Beerus Saga just say the universe will be destroyed, not just everything within the universe. One statement even specifically said the entire universe would be destroyed.

    It is impossible to freely travel between the Living Realm, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm. If all of Universe 7’s realms were a Tier 3 structure and had finite distances between them, it should be entirely possible to travel back and forth between them.

    Whis is capable of time traveling via his Warp ability, which is necessary to travel between the Living World, Afterlife and Kaioshin realm as well as the Numbered Universes. 

    Feats in later sagas back up the U7 feat being Tier 2, such as Frieza surviving Sidra’s Hakai, 17 managing to damage Jiren, the GoDs being impressed by Goku’s power during the Zen Exhibition, Vegeta, Trunks and Goku surviving Infinite Zamasu’s attacks, Goku being confident enough to fight IZ with a senzu bean, Kefla surpassing Ultra Instinct 1 and 2 with only finite increases of power, etc. 

    In the Daizenshuu, which is approved by Toriyama himself, Vice Shout was covering the mortal universe. Vice Shout only affects space-time, as shown in the RoSaT, and breaking the space-time around the universe shows that the mortal universe is an actual universe. 

    As such, I propose this. Goku and Beerus' shockwaves would destroyed the entirety of Universe 7 (universe and the afterlife), which are connected and and forms a globe like structure, and they were able to reach the Kaioshin realm outside of Universe 7, and they would have destroyed it. (Low 2-C)

    It is also established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

    Supporters: 20 (Zamasu ChanIonliositeHiryu-ZSuhSuhGuhSuhSuhDiinou HotHeadSSJRyu1PowerToScaleDBZMLP12345DragomerAwkguyDBArmBillMilly Rocking BanditMissy0124Joshku1788Master XarGojiBoyForeverWarren ValionTed EdCryoTheMayo)

    Against: 12 (Theuser789, Sera EXGodhand1999, ShadowWarrior1999AntvasimaDarkDragonMedeusUltima Reality, Yumi-tan, Pritti, AshenCrow777, The real cal howard, VioletVoid100)

    Neutral: 4 (Giygas3, ElizhaaOmegas03, MrLuk2000, Akreious)

      Loading editor
    • You shoukd post the opponents as well to be fair.

        Loading editor
    • Omg

        Loading editor
    • GojiBoyForever wrote:
      You shoukd post the opponents as well to be fair.

      Not really his fault since they weren't counted on the other thread.

        Loading editor
    • Sorry if I missed anyone, but I think that is everyone. Also, all those who are against the thread you please let me know so I can add a 'Aginst list' to be fair, as GojiBoyForever mentioned.

        Loading editor
    • Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote: Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

      Exactly

        Loading editor
    • I still disagree because of Shadow's, Godhand and Sera's reasons

        Loading editor
    • It's just been established that Universe 7 does not fit the requirements for Low 2-C size (R^4) and that affecting spatially separated realms is range only (Ultima).

      Also it's been debunked that they weren't even saying the time-space was being threatened in actual dialogue. Only the entire cosmos and its inhabitants (physical and non-physical is irrelevant) was in danger. (Pritti and Yumi).

        Loading editor
    • Why don't you start by posting the opponents?

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote:
      Don't forget how it's established that physical attacks can't harm souls/ghosts and yet Beerus and Goku's punches was going to destroy the entire universe with no exceptions implied.

      I think this point clash killing thing like souls/Ghost is iffy; most Fictions with Universal Destruction from what I notice look to ignore this point so it is an iffy feat to support Low 2-C, to me.

        Loading editor
    • Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

        Loading editor
    • I also agree with what Sera EX said above. 

      I could repost my responses in this thread as well to give people a good idea of what the opposing side is saying, but eh. 

      Nothing states that this feat is Low 2-C. It is a 3-A feat and it would've killed both of them in the process BTW.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      Yeah, true.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      The shockwave litteraly come from their punches, if my punches won't hurt a soul, the soul won't suddenly be hurt because i stopped my first and they just felt the shockwave.

      Also the soul thing is a supporting argument to the kaioshin one being seperated, it wouldn't stand on it's own cause it can be handwaved but combined with the Kaioshin realm it show a clear pattern to how the destruction is working and what it affect and doesn't affect.

      Also no, it was never established that U7 didn't qualify for low 2-C, it has been agreed for a very long time on this site that all 12 universe have their own space-time, you can't just decide it's not the case out of nowhere.

      Neither space-time nor matter were ever mentionned in the dialogue and no one ever said they were so nothing has been debunked on that front either, what was debunked was the 'they only mean it would destroy the matter inside the universe'.

      And yes, it affecting non physical stuff matters because it remove litteraly the only other way to interpret the feat as not low 2-C, because with it affecting non-physical stuff and crossing over to places that are purely linked through the space time continuum, it invalid any 'it would only destroy the matter inside the universe' interpretation of the characters's statement while also supporting that what is being affected and in risk of being destroyed is the space-time continuum.

        Loading editor
    • Alright, let’s see how this goes

        Loading editor
    • "It's just been established that Universe 7 does not fit the requirements for Low 2-C size (R^4)"

      And what was the reasoning for this?

        Loading editor
    • Anymore 'Against' users? Also do I remove the soul/non-physical interaction part? I am going to hit the bed after this, it's already 3:44am

        Loading editor
    • The waves came from their punches. Seriously.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I'm neutral on the matter.

        Loading editor
    • @Giygas

      Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: @Giygas

      Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

      Which isbeibg contested right at this moment?

        Loading editor
    • Me, DarkDragonMedeus, and Ultima Reality also oppose this revision, not just Sera.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote:

      Sera EX wrote: @Giygas

      Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

      Which is being contested right at this moment?
        Loading editor
    • This is a waste of time.

        Loading editor
    • @Sera Well, maybe the confusion comes from me not knowing what you mean by R^4. What's that?

        Loading editor
    • You guys are pretty tenacious. That at least I respect. Albeit annoyed, but respect

        Loading editor
    • Pritti, ShadowWarrior1999, and Yumi-tan also disagree.

      @Akreious

      It shouldn't be. It's mathematically proven. All the realms you add only add to 3D. It doesn't reach 4D.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      @Giygas

      Because it's just R^3. No matter how many realms you add, regardless of them being spatially disconnected, you will never reach R^4.

      And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

      And once again, each of the 12 universe have their own space time continuum, it has been discussed numerous time and every single time it has been ruled that U7 is it's own space time continuum.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote:

      Sera EX wrote: Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.

      It is not a strong argument.

      The crux argument of the Low 2-C is destroying something spatially separate like the Kai realm - akin to a Pocket Realm and the universe enough to prove Low 2-C from this the tiering system Low 2-C: This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one.?

      It looks the feat could be a range feat so I see what Andytrenom and Ultima meant about range. I will change my view to neutral now since this feat is likely a range feat from Occam's Razor.

        Loading editor
    • It's fantasy. We call this "magic-thinking". That's all it is. As Ultima explained you don't reach 4D by spreading across it and affecting only 3-D things.

      Think Planet Earth. Every country being destroyed =/= 5-B. There's still the oceans and such to consider.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote:

      Sera EX wrote: Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.


      So Akreious.

      I have just stated in the last thread that even IF they interacted with souls? That would be NPI and it'll only be 3-A because it was still destroying everything within the universe. The Afterlife resides in Universe 7, nowhere else. However, to counter your argument anyway? They never interacted with souls in their fight. Find me evidence that Goku and Beerus interacted with souls in their battle and also find me evidence for it affecting space/time. If you can't do this, then you're arguing for nothing.

        Loading editor
    • Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:

      And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

      The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.

        Loading editor
    • Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

        Loading editor
    • I agree Ant, this should be closed.

        Loading editor
    • Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

        Loading editor
    • Elizhaa wrote:
      Akreious wrote:

      Sera EX wrote: Also, Akreious, Goku and Beerus weren't physically interacting with souls anyway. The shockwaves/collateral damage was doing that.

      The point was, their collisions were going to destroy the universe, souls included. It will be impossible for 3-A to do that as Goku doesn't have NPI and Beerus wasn't using Hakai, no matter how poweful the waves get.
      It is not a strong argument.

      The crux argument of the Low 2-C is destroying something spatially separate like the Kai realm - akin to a Pocket Realm and the universe enough to prove Low 2-C from this the tiering system Low 2-C: This is for characters who can destroy and/or create the entire 4-dimensional space-time of a single universe, not just the physical matter within one.?

      It looks the feat could be a range feat so I see what Andytrenom and Ultima meant about range. I will change my view to neutral now since this feat is likely a range feat from Occam's Razor.

      It's not meant to be one, it's a supporting argument.

      No, nothing about Occam's razor point anyone toward interpreting that a purely physical destruction would spread through non-physical linked space without any explaining just because 'range' instead of the destruction being attributed to the common link between all these spaces : the space time continuum.

      the simplest explaination is the most often the correct one and what is the simplest between 'all those realm are linked by one thing therefor it's that one thing that is being destroyed' and 'it's a purely physical destruction that is spreading to non-physicaly connected space while annihilating non-physical beings that the creator of said destruction can't affect himself because range' ?

        Loading editor
    • Ultima Reality wrote:
      Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:

      And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

      The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.


      Agreed with Ultima Reality here. 

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

      It's best to clear it up though. Otherwise it'll just be repackaged as a new thread with different wording.

        Loading editor
    • I disagree with the upgrade since there's no actual substantial proof that would back up what is claimed here

        Loading editor
    • Ultima Reality wrote:
      Again with the "non-physical" argument? This was already addressed multiple times in the previous thread, both by me and by other users. Also, to answer this:

      And how would you affect these spatialy disconnected realms if not by affecting the only thing linking them, AKA the spacetime continuum ?

      The shockwaves of their attacks were reaching into said realms, thus making it a feat of range. It's as simple as that. Space-Time doesn't have to be involved in any way, and it is up to you to prove it has to. You all are basically pulling a reversal of the burden of proof and taking your arguments as already being valid from the start without any elaboration, from what I've seen.

      And i responded to them so i should be the one going 'again with the physical destruction ?'.

      And how would it reach said places if not through space-time ? you can't even reach those places without warp or teleportaion, how would a mere shockwave just reach it being going far ?

      How can it be a range feat when it's directly said that you can't reach it without space means ? if you don't have warp, that Whis litteraly use to time travel in the Black Saga or teleportation that Shin use to go to other universes, you can't reach it, it's not a matter of it being far away, hell it can't even be far away because there isn't even space between the kaioshin realm and the universe, there is litteraly nothing.

      I don't see how 'the kaioshin realm is not physicaly connected' need any elaboration once i'v shown both maps that portray it clearly.

      And no, i'm reversing nothing, there is two options, i made my case for one and it's up to those disagreeing to make their own case afterward, otherwise it's not arguing, it's basicaly just begging someone to accept what you say.

        Loading editor
    • AshenCrow777 wrote:
      I disagree with the upgrade since there's no actual substantial proof that would back up what is claimed here

      Read the previous thread, both of Toriyama maps prove that the Kaioshin realm is seperated.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote:
      Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

      What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

      I don't like that, I mean, the supporters still have arguments to offer and a revision shouldn't be closed like that unless it's 100% conclusive. Just my two cents, I am kinda neutral on this Btw.

      EDIT: Ninja'd

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:

      It's best to clear it up though. Otherwise it'll just be repackaged as a new thread with different wording.

      Okay then.

        Loading editor
    • Shockwaves traveling across 4D to destroy many spatially disconnected 3-D worlds is not Low 2-C. There's no evidence the fourth dimension was threatened.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      AshenCrow777 wrote:
      I disagree with the upgrade since there's no actual substantial proof that would back up what is claimed here

      Read the previous thread, both of Toriyama maps prove that the Kaioshin realm is seperated.

      I did and everything that the supporters said were shut down hard I'm not even going to sugar coat it, but you do not win debates just by listing people that agrees with you.

      If you do not have facts or evidence, no amount of support is gonna make that kind of upgrade pass, I can even quote the last thread if you want.

      And for a big list of supporters I see very little of them actually supporting here more than half of them are missing.

      But whatever unless there's clear proof and evidence I oppose this upgrade.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      Antvasima wrote:
      Look, this revision is apparently not going to happen, and is exhausting the time and energy of our staff members. It should preferably be closed.

      What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.


      Yup...

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

      The staff have mostly been chosen largely because of their comparatively high abilities to stay unbiased and rational during evaluations, even if they really like a certain verse.

      Part of their task in this wiki is to try to evaluate the suggestions and arguments of regular members as well as they can, and then clear or reject revisions.

      This is an absolute necessity for keeping our character statistics at least somewhat reliable, and not simply rated by complete anarchy, for example by finding a large group of fans who all gang up to push for unreasonable upgrades en masse.

        Loading editor
    • Joshku1788 wrote:
      Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

      Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Shockwaves traveling across 4D to destroy many spatially disconnected 3-D worlds is not Low 2-C. There's no evidence the fourth dimension was threatened.

      Yes, it is, because it mean that what is being destroyed is the space time, the shockwave didn't freaking surf on the space time for no reason when it would have been easier to just say it only affected the mortal universe of what the writers wanted to portray was a 3-A feat.

      Yeah, no evidence except you just admitting that the shockwave is effecting the space-time continuum and your version still not explaining how the souls get destroyed.

      Sorry but now that it's proven that the shockwave HAS to effect time space, to the point even you can't deny it, to do what it did and the already established impossibility of a purely material destruction, it once again just leave low 2-C as a possibility.

      Since Occam's razor is has been brough up before, that's clearly what Occam's razor point to : what the shockwave was destroying is the space time continuum, which it need to be able to affect to begin with to do any of the stuff it did, rather than surfing on the space time continuum just to material destroy stuff that isn't even material (like souls).

        Loading editor
    • Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah this has my disagreement as well.

        Loading editor
    • Gotta be honest here, and this is from one of the original people to push for Episode 12 being legit back in 2015, I disagree with the CRT and agree with Sera and co

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      What's the point of even allowing anyone except the staff to use any threads at this point then ? just make everything staff only if only what they say matter, it will stop non-staff members from wasting their time.

      The staff have mostly been chosen because of their comparatively high abilities to stay unbiased and rational during evaluations, even if they really like a certain verse.

      Part of their task in this wiki is to try to evaluate the suggestions and arguments of regular members as well as they can, and then clear or reject revisions.

      This is an absolute necessity for keeping our character statistics at least somewhat reliable, and not simply rated by, for example, finding a large group of fans who all gang up to push for unreasonable upgrades en masse.

      We both know that a large ammount of people wouldn't call quite a few staff members 'unbiased' and 'rational' and at least one staff members is known to start shit and bait people.

      Yeah, much better for it to simply be rated by a small group of people who all know each others and get first and final say on everything, as if it's more reliable and doesn't just put the whole thing in its own bubble.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      You didn't, my second post was a response to your arguments, which basically revolve around "The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are not physical and were going to be destroyed by Goku and Beerus. 3-A involves physical destruction. Therefore their feat cannot be 3-A", which is straight up wrong for reasons I've already made clear time and time again: 3-A doesn't need to involve physical destruction in the first place, and has more to do with the size of the area which you are affecting, and the very same principle applies to Low 2-C and ever tier that comes after it.

      Again, it can perfectly be considered a range feat which was demonstrated in this scene, it's far less of a stretch than saying that the shockwaves were going to destroy space-time itself or something like that. Even then, this argument just comes off as self-defeating, since you are basically saying Goku and Beerus can't affect the whole space-time continuum with their attacks here, yet this whole thread is about upgrading them to Low 2-C based on their feat supposedly affecting... the whole space-time continuum due to the existence of the other realms. Do you see the disconnect here?

      You are, though. What this thread is doing consists of presenting two options regarding the feat, dismissing one of them as automatically invalid (even though several users disagree with it) and pushing the other one as the only possible take on the scene, then stating the people disagreeing with such have to prove it is invalid, when it should be the contrary: You should be the done arguing for its validity, while the statistics present in the pages themselves are assumed to be in the right.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

      They didn't explain, they presented their own stuff and i responded to it, you can't just take an argument you like and declare it true just because you didn't like the counter argument.

      The characters said the world and the universe was threatened too, it doesn't need to specificaly say the space time continuum was threatened otherwise, you've got a much bigger revision on your hand cause a shit lot of low 2-C are getting downgraded.

      And that litteraly doesn't change any of my point.

        Loading editor
    • Also, as Pritti and Yumi already explained with facts and evidence. The characters even say that the entire cosmos (cosmos, not time-space) was threatened.

      Oh dear, do we need another linguistics lesson?

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      No you didn’t, their argument was at the end of the thread and it got closed. How did you respond to Yumi when her comment was the 500th and final reply?

        Loading editor
    • Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:
      Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

      Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

      They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      Oh, but I did. They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that.

        Loading editor
    • Ultima Reality wrote:
      @Dragomer

      You didn't, my second post was a response to your arguments, which basically revolve around "The Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm are not physical and were going to be destroyed by Goku and Beerus. 3-A involves physical destruction. Therefore their feat cannot be 3-A", which is straight up wrong for reasons I've already made clear time and time again: 3-A doesn't need to involve physical destruction in the first place, and has more to do with the size of the area which you are affecting, and the very same principle applies to Low 2-C and ever tier that comes after it.

      Again, it can perfectly be considered a range feat which was demonstrated in this scene, it's far less of a stretch than saying that the shockwaves were going to destroy space-time itself or something like that. Even then, this argument just comes off as self-defeating, since you are basically saying Goku and Beerus can't affect the whole space-time continuum with their attacks here, yet this whole thread is about upgrading them to Low 2-C based on their feat supposedly affecting... the whole space-time continuum due to the existence of the other realms. Do you see the disconnect here?

      You are, though. What this thread is doing consists of presenting two options regarding the feat, dismissing one of them as automatically invalid (even though several users disagree with it) and pushing the other one as the only possible take on the scene, then stating the people disagreeing with such have to prove it is invalid, when it should be the contrary: You should be the done arguing for its validity, while the statistics present in the pages themselves are assumed to be in the right.

      And i'm telling you that it isn't wrong, as i'v litteraly copy pasted how Low 2-C is defined on the tier page, Low 2-C is destroying 1 space time, the BOG feat is destroying one universe, leaving the question of HOW they are destroying the universe and it can only be by destroying the space time since it need to affect space time to reach the kaioshin realm and destroy the souls.

      No, it can't be, you can't reach the kaioshin realm through pure distance, that's not how it works.

      No, it's not self defeating and it isn't based on just their existence, it's based on the fact that the only thing linking all of them is space time, which mean the shockwave who did reach them had to affect the space time, which make the low 2-C option even more likely given that even the lowest interpretation still has the shockwave affecting space time.

      You're the one not seeing the disconnect : how can it be range if freaking distance aren't involved ? there is no distance without space.

      No, i am not because i explained continuously around the middle of the previous thread how and why the first option was invalid and only started presenting the first one as false once everyone stopped contesting it and even Sera admitted that non-physical realm were involved, you can't have purely physical stuff while involving non-physical stuff, that's illogical.

      I argued for it's validity for a long time and people stopped going against it and even accepted it so i consider it accepted, the destruction can't be physical, otherwise physicaly non-connected realm and non-physical realm wouldn't be affected.

        Loading editor
    • Joshku1788 wrote:

      Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:
      Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

      Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

      They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


      That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh. 

        Loading editor
    • Pritti wrote:
      @Dragomer

      Oh, but I did. They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that.

      I never said they said the space time continuum was being threatened, i said that they said the universe was being threatened and mentionned in passing that going by a blog that had a screen shot of a japanese dictionary, it also fit nicely with the definition of universe in the japanese dictionary.

      It was litteraly just 'and it happen to fit nicely with the japanese dictionary of universe' or something like that at the end of my one of my argument, it wasn't even it's own argument, it being valid or not in the end has nothing to do with any other arguments, that was just a passing mention to a blog post i saw.

      Also you didn't provide any proof of your own, people, me included just aren't questioning what you said because we don't speak japanese but i have no idea who between you and that old blog post could be right, at least the blog post had a screen shot instead of just writing the japanese characters.

        Loading editor
    • They never say time-space was being threatened. In order for Zenuchuu statements to be considered Low 2-C there needs to be a statement regarding either Jikan (time) or Jikuu (time-space). You have provided no evidence for that

      Exactly. Dragon Ball like any other Japanese-based series makes difference between cosmos and time-space. In the case of Dragon Ball, there are always statements of jikan/time or jikuu/time-space to provide context that time is involved.

        Loading editor
    • If the space time continuum wasn’t threatened it’s not a Low 2-C feat.

        Loading editor
    • As I posted on the earlier Thread I'm in full agreement with Sera.

      also why are we using guidebooks from the 1990's that have already had numerous retcons since then.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      If the space time continuum wasn’t threatened it’s not a Low 2-C feat.

      And what else would be destroyed in an universal destruction that litteraly has to go through the space time continuum to affect some of the space it need to destroy while needing to destroy space time to kill some of the beings it would kill (the souls) ?

      Just because they don't say directly 'the space time is going to be destroyed' doesn't invalid it from being low 2-C, that's pure nonsense, they already said the universe would be destroyed, which is more natural and more people would recognise.

        Loading editor
    • I wonder what the Chozenshuu has to say for this stuff

        Loading editor
    • And I didn’t say that you said they said that (wew, what a mouthful). I’m saying that the best statement you have is “entire universe” or “zenuchuu” and in order for that statement to be considered Low 2-C, there needs to be a context clue within the statement or another statement that says that time or time-space was being affected.

        Loading editor
    • The Chouzenshuu is just a slightly updated and rereleased Daizenshuu. But even the Chouzenshuu was released years before Super first aired.

        Loading editor
    • Only “all of existence” universal statements are Low 2-C by default, not entire cosmos statements.

        Loading editor
    • This is what I asked in the first thread:

      Basically, from what i can understand, the Supporters of the upgrade's agrument can be summed up to:

      "The feat would be 3-A if they were destroying just all of the Universe's matter. However since they were actually going to destroy the strucutre of the entire macrocosm, including reams separated from the main thing, the feat should be a Low 2-C one, as space-time is likely either a part of the structure, if not even what makes up the strucutre itself by sheer common sense"

      Right?

      So basically, if they were really going to destroy the whole thing, wether space-time is part of the structure or not.

      I'm sorry if I sound so oblivious, but I prefer simplified things.

        Loading editor
    • Well guess that's that I mean the same thing was said last thread but I guess some people just decided to ignore and bull rush in order to get the upgrade.

      And honestly I 100% trust Pritti and Yumi-tan I'm not Japanese and I know even less their calligraphy and way to use phrase while providing contexts.

      But all of this was already addressed in the past thread so I don't see why this is going on any longer when again like Yumi-tan said when the DBverse wants to make a distinction in what they are trying show they actually do but in this thread nothing here proved anything at all because they didn't say anything with what you guys are trying to imply Dragomer.

        Loading editor
    • So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after surfing time itself to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

        Loading editor
    • It’s not ludicrous at all. For one you’re using a strawman and are completely misrepresenting our arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Disagree FRA, disagreement argument seems to be more reasonable to me and the people who are arguing know their dimensional stuff.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote: So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after surfing time itself to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

      “Surfing time.”

      No, they aren’t separate space-times, you don’t have to destroy space-time to affect something that is in the same space-time.

        Loading editor
    • Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn’t go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I’m understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.

        Loading editor
    • Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:

      Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:
      Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

      Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

      They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


      That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh. 

      Then qhy does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

        Loading editor
    • Joshku1788 wrote:

      Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:

      Godhand1999 wrote:

      Joshku1788 wrote:
      Mortal universe, heaven and hell all universe sized would have all been destroyed by the clashes. That's gives me reason to believe that God Goku is low 2-C. Infinite Zamasu is 2-C. Goku and Vegeta from the TOP are above infinite zamasu.

      Heaven and Hell are not universe sized. They are within Universe 7.

      They are their own dimensions, no being could get there without teleportation, or actually being killed.


      That doesn't mean they are universe sized Josh. 

      Then why does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

        Loading editor
    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn’t go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I’m understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.

      When did they ever destroy any kind of ghost???

        Loading editor
    • Joshku1788 wrote:

      Then qhy does Other World appear universe sized in the macrocosm?

      Because it would simply be 3Dimensionally as large as the mortal universe. That says nothing about space and time.

      Also, avoid quoting large blocks of text.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      It’s not ludicrous at all. For one you’re using a strawman and are completely misrepresenting our arguments.

      It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.

      The discussion should have been over the moment the whole 'only physical' thing was debunked, because it only left one option that made any sense.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Akreious wrote: So what the against people are saying that the waves magically get NPI after surfing time itself to reach their dimension before destroying them? Do you realize how ludicrous this sounds?

      “Surfing time.”

      No, they aren’t separate space-times, you don’t have to destroy space-time to affect something that is in the same space-time.

      Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

        Loading editor
    • AshenCrow777 wrote:

      DragonEmperor23 wrote: Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn’t go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I’m understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.

      When did they ever destroy any kind of ghost???

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Thread:3567658#12

        Loading editor
    • It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.

      False. I didn’t reduce my argument. And no, 99% of Low 2-C feats do not lack space time statements or feats. Cronus, Bhunivelze, Ultimecia, Superman, The Phoenix Force, all these characters and more have more appropriate statements out outright feats that back up their Low 2-C+ ratings.

        Loading editor
    • Yumi-tan wrote:
      Only “all of existence” universal statements are Low 2-C by default, not entire cosmos statements.

      And no one said that it was low 2-C by default, it's low 2-C because it was going to destroy something that isn't physicaly / spacialy connected to the universe that is also being destroy, all of what is being destroyed only being linked by the space time continuum.

      And all of existence in dragon ball refer to AT LEAST a timeline, which would be outright 2-C (see Zeno).

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

      No, you don’t have to destroy space-time to destroy realms that are a 3D distance apart.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      It is ludicrous and you know it, that's why you reduced your comment to one line trying to argue that since it wasn't directly stated to destroy the space time continuum (a statement 99% of all low 2-C lack), it couldn't be low 2-C.False. I didn’t reduce my argument. And no, 99% of Low 2-C feats do not lack space time statements or feats. Cronus, Bhunivelze, Ultimecia, Superman, The Phoenix Force, all these characters and more have more appropriate statements out outright feats that back up their Low 2-C+ ratings.

      Those few guys aren't 99% of low 2-C on site and you know it, the characters with space time statement are less than an handful on this site and yet they still get low 2-C.

      Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with and is directly shown and said to affect non-physical things, making the 3-A possibility null, the shockwaves tony hawking on space time to reach their matter only destruction of a bunch of non-physical souls is so much more logical and appropriate of an interpretation.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:

      Dragomer wrote:

      Except yes, that's what they would need to do, when you destroy something that isn't spacialy / physicaly connected in any way to the rest of what you're destroying, your attack need to go through the only thing linking the two : the space time continuum.

      No, you don’t have to destroy space-time to destroy realms that are a 3D distance apart.

      They aren't 3D distance apart, there is no space connecting them, 3D distance doesn't even make logical sense in that context, that's not how dimensions work.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer Something like “destroying the fabric of existence” would suffice as Low 2-C, as that would by synonymous with space-time. But there’s no such statement in Dragon Ball.

      Repeating the same points that were already refuted over and over again doesn’t strengthen your arguments.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with

      This is outright false and is not even a thing within our standards. You are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency at the same time, again. The feat can happen without space time being significantly (key word: significantly) affected. Have you grasped that yet?

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      They aren't 3D distance apart, there is no space connecting them, 3D distance doesn't even make logical sense in that context, that's not how dimensions work.

      They’re in the same space-time so yes, they’re a 3D distance apart.

      What’s defined as a dimension also varies depending on the context it’s used in.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Yeah, more appropriate than a universal destruction feat that CAN'T happen without affecting space time to begin with

      This is outright false and is not even a thing within our standards. You are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency at the same time, again. The feat can happen without space time being significantly (key word: significantly) affected. Have you grasped that yet?

      This is not false, how the hell would it affect the Kaioshin realm then when it's litteraly the only thing linking the two ?

      No, i'm not missrepresenting anything, i fucking copy pasted the freaking definition from the freaking tiers page and it's the second or third time you accuse me of that and it's getting insulting, i already said it's not cool.

      And how is 'litteraly impossible without doing so' not significant ? give me a single way the shockwaves can reach a totaly spacialy / physicaly seperate realm that is only connected through space time without having anything to do with space time.

        Loading editor
    • I am 100% on Sera's side here. This is not upgrade-worthy and shouldn't be allowed to pass.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      @Dragomer Something like “destroying the fabric of existence” would suffice as Low 2-C, as that would by synonymous with space-time. But there’s no such statement in Dragon Ball.

      Repeating the same points that were already refuted over and over again doesn’t strengthen your arguments.

      Where is the rules saying you need a statement like that ? nowhere so not an argument.

      None of my points were refuted, if anything they were accepted because multiple people admitted the 'physical only' stuff was bulshit in the previous thread and no one has any counter argument against it needing to go through space time to reach a spatialy seperated place and no 'it's muh range' isn't a counter argument because there can't be range without space, not without being low 2-C to begin with.

        Loading editor
    • They’re saying there’s space time surrounding the universe and the Kai realm. Is there a picture of that continuum?

        Loading editor
    • Time is not the only thing linking the two.

      Stop saying I’m insulting you, I’m not. And yes, you are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency standards.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      Time is not the only thing linking the two.

      Stop saying I’m insulting you, I’m not. And yes, you are misrepresenting the tier system and attack potency standards.

      The Author disagree with you, refer to the maps, litteraly 2 different maps.

      Sorry but basicaly accusing me of lying IS insulting, especialy when it's repeatedly.

      No, i'm not misrepresenting anything, get mad at your own tiers page, not at me, i litteraly copy pasted them, you can't be more direct than that.

        Loading editor
    • People with first-hand understanding of the Japanese Language as it is their native tongue are a much more credible source than English-Only speaking DB fans in this thread.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote:

      We both know that a large ammount of people wouldn't call quite a few staff members 'unbiased' and 'rational' and at least one staff members is known to start shit and bait people.

      Yeah, much better for it to simply be rated by a small group of people who all know each others and get first and final say on everything, as if it's more reliable and doesn't just put the whole thing in its own bubble.

      I used the words "mostly" and "comparatively", and the alternative to at least trying to find and promote the most reliable members to staff positions would be complete anarchy, which, among other things, would mean neverending edit-wars, completely exaggerated statistics across all franchises, and eventually a deleted wiki.

      I think that most of the staff members are usually doing their best to listen to the regular members, help them out, and be as rational and levelheaded as they can. All for no pay I might add, and recurrently underappreciated. However, we are also not here to be eternal yes-men, regardless if a suggested revision makes sense or not.

        Loading editor
    • I did not accuse of lying. I said you’re misrepresenting the system, this is because you don’t seem to understand it. I’m not insulting you in the slightest. You outright ignored the math behind the system that no matter what, this feat is not on the level of R^4 or the fourth dimension.

      And if anything, the author disagrees with you, not me.

        Loading editor
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      People with first-hand understanding of the Japanese Language as it is their native tongue are a much more credible source than English-Only speaking DB fans in this thread.

      Japanese defintions were never freaking arguments, they were 7 freaking words i put at the end of an argument as a reference to a blog post, it was never part of the revision or any argument.

      And i don't only speak english.

        Loading editor
    • Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer Nobody is insulting you. Sera saying that you’re misrepresenting the tiering system is telling you that you’re doing something wrong, not a personal attack against you.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote:
      I did not accuse of lying. I said you’re misrepresenting the system, this is because you don’t seem to understand it. I’m not insulting you in the slightest. You outright ignored the math behind the system that no matter what, this feat is not on the level of R^4 or the fourth dimension.

      And if anything, the author disagrees with you, not me.

      I don't care about supposed math behind the systeme when none of it is included in the actual pages that define the tierings.

      And the math change nothing, the only thing it change is that what we say it has to affect because the mechanism stay the same.

      Nope, i'v got two maps who quite clearly say what i'm saying while you didn't answer what i asked, if the author agreed with you, i doubt his own maps would quite clearly show that there is nothing connecting the kaioshin realm to anything.

        Loading editor
    • Ultima Reality wrote: Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

      I’m wondering that myself...

        Loading editor
    • And the math change nothing, the only thing it change is that what we say it has to affect because the mechanism stay the same.

      Untrue. It’s the bedrock principles behind even the current system. Even geometrically speaking you’re wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Ultima Reality wrote:
      Also, I am starting to get a bit confused here. First it was said that the Afterlife and the Kaioshin Realm were spatially separated from U7, and then it is being said space-time is the only thing connecting the two. So, which is it? You can't have both at the same time you know.

      They are seperated spatialy (it's arguable for the afterlife) but within the same space time continuum, that's what the map show (unless you want to say they all have different space time continuum but it was rejected).

      You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum, that was even the main argument when people made a thread to make U7 a 2-C structure in nature.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer trying to appeal to the mass by turning this thread into a staff vs members is not making your argument any more valid.

      So yeah drop that whole conspiracy thing it's pointless and you are causing needless circle jerking.

        Loading editor
    • AshenCrow777 wrote:
      @Dragomer trying to appeal to the mass by turning this thread into a staff vs members is not making your argument any more valid.

      So yeah drop that whole conspiracy thing it's pointless and you are causing needless circle jerking.

      I'm not the one who started mentioning the staff at all, if anything i kept trying to stir the discussion away from that since the first thread but when i see basicaly 'the staff disagree so it's no no matter what' after i wasted 2 days arguing, you can't expect me to not at least complain a little.

      Yeah, it's us circle jerking, not the minority of people who get to just say 'i disagree with it so it doesn't pass'.

      Also i dropped it (see how i didn't respond to Ant again ?) but you're relaunching it.

      But fuck it if it get derailed at this point since staff said no anyway.

      also the word filter thing is a real pain, you know ?

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, let's drop that completely.

        Loading editor
    • You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum

      Thank you for finally admitting it. And do you know what this means? Collateral damage could travel throughout time-space and only effect the contents of space. This is even true for attacks sent through time travel.

        Loading editor
    • Pritti wrote:
      You can be spatialy seperated but still within the same space time continuum

      Thank you for finally admitting it. And do you know what this means? Collateral damage could travel throughout time-space and only effect the contents of space. This is even true for attacks sent through time travel.

      Sorry but how is the shockwave tony hawking space time while still being totaly physical-onlyweswear to destroy souls make any more fucking sense than just the space time continuum being included in the 'will destroy the universe' and 'will destroy everything' type statement since the shockwave has the ability to affect space time either way ? are you really arguing in good faith that the writers wanted to say the former instead of the latter ?

      anyway it would affect space time and since matter only destruction is out (because the souls and surfing space time remember ?), it mean the destruction would happen to the space time.rather than purely physical, thus conforming to the goddamn tiering definition to T.

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote: Where is the rules saying you need a statement like that ? nowhere so not an argument.

      What? Yes, you do need some indication that implies the universe being destroyed would include its space-time and not just the matter in it. It’s how 3-A and Low 2-C are differentiated. Got no evidence of space-time being affected? It’s a 3-A feat.

      None of my points were refuted, if anything they were accepted because multiple people admitted the 'physical only' stuff was bulshit in the previous thread and no one has any counter argument against it needing to go through space time to reach a spatialy seperated place and no 'it's muh range' isn't a counter argument because there can't be range without space, not without being low 2-C to begin with.

      Because when the realms are inside the same space-time, a 3D distance apart from each other, the space-time is irrelevant. You don’t need to affect it.

        Loading editor
    • Simple. Because there’s no evidence anything more than the cosmos was being threatened. The cosmos means all contents of the time-space, including spatially disconnected worlds and the Kaioshin realm.

      Show me Goku v. Beerus affecting Future Trunks’ time. That’s Low 2-C

        Loading editor
    • Anyway i'm tired and staff said no so i'm wasting my time, just don't wonder why people complain about the staff when everytime you do the same bulshit of going against what a majority agree with nothing but 'because i said so and have something else to do' and that's ignoring that one guy who keep goading people.

      Also the tentative to derail the thread into a staff pity party were really fucking obvious, my dudes.

      And i hate your word filter, peace.

        Loading editor
    • You see this scan, they’re assuming there’s time space that surrounds this but were never shown that. This scan shows a bunch of stars, no Kaioshin realm and no afterlife; they’re nowhere to be seen. So this is likely the mortal universe sealed inside the bottom of the Macrocosm. It’s more likely to be the mortal universe because A, the mortal universe is said to resemble a real life one, and B, assuming the Macrocosm is inside that blue universe is head canon. This is my interpretation on it. And no one still deconstructed the actual difference between a numbered universe and a Kai realm outside of size.

        Loading editor
    • This did not become a “staff pity party”, and you have the audacity to claim you weren’t making this a “staff vs. non-staff” thing? Seriously...

        Loading editor
    • Dragomer wrote: Anyway i'm tired and staff said no so i'm wasting my time, just don't wonder why people complain about the staff when everytime you do the same bulshit of going against what a majority agree with nothing but 'because i said so and have something else to do' and that's ignoring that one guy who keep goading people.

      Also the tentative to derail the thread into a staff pity party were really fucking obvious, my dudes.

      And i hate your word filter, peace.

      More people agreeing doesn’t make the upgrade valid, that is a blatant appeal to popularity fallacy, especially when the lot of you supporting it have demonstrated to not even know what you’re talking about.

        Loading editor
    • @Dragomer

      This does not fulfill the tiering system standards for the statistics that you want.

      The staff are volunteer workers trying to help out for free, and recurrently get disrespected or harrassed anyway. That is the genuine truth of the issue. I have a thick skin, and have endured enormous amounts of abuse and overwork over the years, but not all staff members consider it worth the effort in the long run, and that is extremely bad for the wiki, so some respect and appreciation goes a long way to help.

      And the word filter is there to protect everybody in the wiki from being banned by the Fandom staff, who are far stricter than we are in some respects.

        Loading editor
    • DragonEmperor23 wrote: Assuming that the Low 2-C upgrade doesn’t go through, would the characters receive NPI via being able to destroy ghosts with their shockwaves and range upgrades for being able to reach other dimensions with them? If I’m understanding what the Counter arguments are for the proposed Low 2-C feats correctly.

      ^

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      You see this scan, they’re assuming there’s time space that surrounds this but were never shown that. This scan shows a bunch of stars, no Kaioshin realm and no afterlife; they’re nowhere to be seen. So this is likely the mortal universe sealed inside the bottom of the Macrocosm. It’s more likely to be the mortal universe because A, the mortal universe is said to resemble a real life one, and B, assuming the Macrocosm is inside that blue universe is head canon. This is my interpretation on it. And no one still deconstructed the actual difference between a numbered universe and a Kai realm outside of size.

      Also IIRC, AKM did say that U7 was the exact same across all the DB continuity. That would make the 4D walls between the Macrocosm and the Kai realm more legit.

        Loading editor
    • Okay I’m a little lost with where everything went while I was gone, and I think the main points of the argument were kinda lost, would everyone be fine if I just reposted them here to make sure they’re properly discussed?

        Loading editor
    • @LordTracer

      Feel free.

        Loading editor
    • Alright, so:

      Beerus and Goku feat = Has two 3-A statements and like four that could be either 3-A or Low 2-C (just, they’d destroy the universe) One of the 3-A statements says Goku and Beerus would only destroy what is inside of Universe 7.

      This is contradicted by the fact that Goku and Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin realm, which is shown on Toriyama’s Universe 7 map to be outside of Universe 7.

      That means there’s only one 3-A statement and four indeterminate ones.

      Several feats in the later sagas would support the characters being Low 2-C instead of 3-A, such as:

      - Golden Frieza survived Sidra’s Hakai.

      - Beerus wanted to fight SSG Goku as a rival, and therefore would logically be using an actual portion of his power against him and not be holding infinitely back.

      - Base Goku and Vegeta surviving punches from Full Power Jiren.

      - Vegeta being able to destroy the RoSaT, showing he can affect space-time (Note, just in case anyone tries to crucify me over this: not saying the RoSaT is a universe here).

      - The GoDs were impressed with Goku’s power during the Zen Exhibition match, which more than likely would not happen if he were infinitely beneath them.

      - Kefla surpassed Ultra Instinct Omens 1 and 2 with finite multipliers.

      - Belmod was getting scared over the Universe 7 Genkidama and Vegeta Blue’s Final Flash.

      There’s more examples than that too. These feats would support BoG being Low 2-C since Goku in his base form surpassed SSG and the majority of the verse scale from this feat.

        Loading editor
    • @DragonEmperor

      I’m not sure but they definitely will be a higher degree of 3-A than they already are.

        Loading editor
    • Also IIRC, AKM did say that U7 was the exact same across all the DB continuity. That would make the 4D walls between the Macrocosm and the Kai realm more legit.

      Those scans seem to include improper usage of the term “dimension”.

        Loading editor
    • I actually don’t think so, but I can fact-check it if necessary. What scene(s) are those from anyway?

        Loading editor
    • Pritti wrote: @DragonEmperor

      I’m not sure but they definitely will be a higher degree of 3-A than they already are.

      My logic for the NPI would be that they would have destroyed everything, which includes the ghosts and that even if it is being argued that the Kaioshin realm doesn't have a separate space time/isn't universe sized, they would still have the range to reach and destroy the entirety of another dimension that can not be accessed through physical means with the shockwaves of their attacks.

        Loading editor
    • I believe those are from the scenes in Kai where Buuhan was doing the Vice Shout.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: Also IIRC, AKM did say that U7 was the exact same across all the DB continuity. That would make the 4D walls between the Macrocosm and the Kai realm more legit.

      Those scans seem to include improper usage of the term “dimension”.

      It’s still referring to the other realms and vice shout targets space time which, as stated, lies between the Macrocosm and the World of the Kai. 

        Loading editor
    • Vice Shout was never stated to target space-time, it targets the dimensional walls of the realms within Universe 7.

        Loading editor
    • Dimensional walls in this context would mean time space. Dende said these walls separate the Macrocosm from the ROSAT, which is separated by time space.  

        Loading editor
    • The ROSAT is just a small pocket dimension and at best it would be an outlier.

        Loading editor
    • Btw add me against it too

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      The ROSAT is just a small pocket dimension and at best it would be an outlier.

      I'm not talking about the feat, I'm talking about the range. "Walls between dimensions" separates the ROSAT and the universe (and yes I know it's earth sized). The ROSAT is disconnect from the universe by space and time. If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions. Is plain and simple, right in front of your face, it's called putting two and two together. 

        Loading editor
    • can some people at least try to be polite? insulting staff members won't solve anything and will be closed for the same reason the other threads have.

        Loading editor
    • The ROSAT and the Kaioshin Realm are completely irrelevant to one another. This is a non-sequitir argument, and the argument for the Kaioshin Realm being separate from Universe 7 is “lol it’s in a globe on a map.”

        Loading editor
    • "If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions."

      ^

        Loading editor
    • Just gonna put my own 2 cents.

      Wasn't the Dragon Ball Universe stated to be a Macrocosm? The universe of DB containing a human world, but alongside a heaven and hell that is considered to be their own separate universes and in the BoG they claimed multiple times that their punches could destroy the entire universe.

      Db macrocosm







      COY7hJA





      UDP1 (1)






















      If this also implies that the heaven and hell respectively also was gonna be destroyed if this continued wouldn't this presumably a possible 2-C feat?

      I'm uncertain, but as of right now I'm neutral.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote:
      The ROSAT and the Kaioshin Realm are completely irrelevant to one another. This is a non-sequitir argument, and the argument for the Kaioshin Realm being separate from Universe 7 is “lol it’s in a globe on a map.”

      It's on both of the maps created by the Author himself and goes uncontradicted by current interpretations and canon? Further details from Daizenshuu says that you flat out can't use physical travel to get there?
      "If this also implies that the heaven and hell respectively also was gonna be destroyed if this continued wouldn't this presumably a possible 2-C feat?

      I'm uncertain, but as of right now I'm neutral."

      That was Option 2 of the first thread which was rejected since pretty much everybody agrees it's all tied together in terms of Time, just separate Spaces. 

      We're arguing whether or not the destruction of the Universe is Low 2-C since to reach specific parts of the Universe, you cannot use physical travel (Which 3-A certainly is, seeing as it's exclusively physical in nature)

        Loading editor
    • Ah I see. Well I'm still neutral

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote:

      It's on both of the maps created by the Author himself and goes uncontradicted by current interpretations and canon? Further details from Daizenshuu says that you flat out can't use physical travel to get there?

      Okay, you bring up the Daizenshuu but here’s one problem with that.

      The Daizenshuu literally states that the Kaioshin Realm is made up of a giant crystalline sphere, which makes it undebataly not a space-time continuum. With that being said, there’s no reason to assume it’s in a separate space-time from Universe 7 and thus, the Battle of Gods feat only amounts to being 3-A.

      DB9A2DFF-CD6E-4F89-B7C3-215B23B2D716
        Loading editor
    • "The Daizenshuu literally states that the Kaioshin Realm is made up of a giant crystalline sphere, which makes it undebataly not a space-time continuum."

      The Daizenshuu scan you posted says physical travel between the two is impossible and even if it's made up of a Giant Crystalline Sphere, your scan clearly shows that it orbits around the Macrocosm. It is not connected to it. 

      Plus "Crystalline Sphere" is ambiguous as all hell. It can be made of Magic Mumbo Jumbo for all we know.

      " With that being said, there’s no reason to assume it’s in a separate space-time from Universe 7 and thus, the Battle of Gods feat only amounts to being 3-A."

      ... No? How the heck does it not being a Separate Space-Time make the feat only 3-A? If it were a separate Space-Time then the feat would be 2-C, not Low 2-C that we're arguing right now. 

        Loading editor
    • You wanna know something funny? The timelines in DB Xenoverse are made of crystalline structures lmao.

        Loading editor
    • Oh, yeah, you're right lol.

        Loading editor
    •   Loading editor
    • OH YEAH THEY ARE

      9s7si7pl

      I remember this from the Heroes where Demigra yeets a bunch of Timelines at Freeza. Fun times.

        Loading editor
    • @Akreious I can’t physically travel through a wall, so not being able to physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm isn’t relevant.

      “Magic mumbo jumbo” still isn’t a space-time continuum now is it?

      The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk, and the Kaioshin Realm is something that’s not even worth mentioning.

        Loading editor
    • "@Akreious I can’t physically travel through a wall, so not being able to physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm isn’t relevant."

      Yes you can. All you need to do is go fast enough and hard enough. It's not impossible to travel through a wall. 

      "“Magic mumbo jumbo” still isn’t a space-time continuum now is it?"

      Refer to the above where Crystalline Structures are treated as full-fledged Timelines in Xenoverse and Heroes, so the precident is there.

      "The point is, if the Kaioshin Realm is still within the same space-time continuum as the macrocosm then the feat being tier 2 is bunk"

      ... Wot? No? There's still the whole problem where their "3-A" feat was going to destroy the afterlife in it's entirety. If they don't get Low 2-C, we will have to add NPI to their profiles for being able to destroy the entire afterlife then. 

      Also that isn't the only argument in the OP for Tier 2, why are you saying as if "debunking" a single point somehow invalidates everything else?

      "and the Kaioshin Realm is something that’s not even worth mentioning."

      Why? Because you said so?

        Loading editor
    • Regardless of the kaioshin realm's relation to the whole macrocosm of dragon ball the feat that this thread is proposing to be implemented heavily implies the realm in question being is threaten.

        Loading editor
    • I'm still in agreement with what I've been saying previously.

        Loading editor
    • Medeus, what are your thoughts on the characters getting NPI for being able to destroy the afterlife?

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus

      Question what's your disagreement with the thread's proposal

        Loading editor
    • DragonEmperor23


      I Think it has to be direct or implied that they have the ability otherwise we just start using subjective merits to judge things.


      Saying goku should have NPI cause he can destroy the afterlife is like saying i should be city level cause i could knock down a water tower


      Beerus already destroyed dead souls in the arale episode of dbs

        Loading editor
    • I'm talking about via shockwaves and not Hakai.

      This is what Medeus said on the last thread.

      "I'm just going to point out some things. I agree that the current ratings should remain the same; at least for the time being. First of all, it's obvious the mortal Universe and the Afterlife are in the same timeline. And the Kaioshin Realm, it appears outside both the afterlife and the Mortal Universe, but it's still just another body of space as far as we know. I'm not saying it's impossible for it to have it's own flow of time, but that I don't think there's actually proof of it. Only the RoSaT is the only part that has its own timeline. But even then, it's more like a pocket reality with a Space-Time Anomaly rather than a Universe.

      To quote AKM Sama

      The cosmology is the same for all of DB regardless of it being from anime or manga. The representation could be inconsistent at times but it's still the one that Toriyama drew. However, I'm not interested in this debate anymore.

      I mean there was a huge debate between several parties including Matt and SSJRyu about how we should treat the DB universe, and it was decided to treat the whole universe as one space-time continuum. There were arguments from both sides that looked convincing but that's just how it was decided to be treated.

      And from that, Universe 7 was decided to be a Space-Time Continuum. There's still debate whether we should treat Universe 6 and stuff and wouldn't mind if all the Angels got downgraded back to Low 2-C scaling from Infinite Zamasu again. But there's definitely proof that alternate timelines exist and that Zeno can "Destroy all existence" so he's 2-C. As when Beerus hakai'd Zamasu, that technically became a different timeline. Because the Goku Black game from the what if timeline if Beerus and Whis hadn't throttled Zamasu's assassination. But all the current 3-A characters should remain 3-A, but Kaioshin realm can serve as further proof that the cast is far above baseline 3-A. "

        Loading editor
    • I'm neutral on NPI, but I think there were arguments against that. It's still an AP feat, but sometimes destroying souls via destroying the universe can be interpreted as a chain reaction that causes soul destruction rather than NPI.

      And Kaioshin Realm doesn't have proof of being an entire Space-Time continuum as Ultima and Sera have been saying.

        Loading editor
    • How would souls be effected by the universe being destroyed? With the 3-A argument, the only damage to the universe would be physical, which shouldn't do anything to a soul.

        Loading editor
    • Akreious wrote: Yes you can. All you need to do is go fast enough and hard enough. It's not impossible to travel through a wall. 

      An immeasurable speed character could physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm, which no one in Dragon Ball is.

      Refer to the above where Crystalline Structures are treated as full-fledged Timelines in Xenoverse and Heroes, so the precident is there.

      Did you just use Xenoverse, which is non-canon to try to argue an upgrade for DBS? Also that’s just an aesthetic choice.

      ... Wot? No? There's still the whole problem where their "3-A" feat was going to destroy the afterlife in it's entirety. If they don't get Low 2-C, we will have to add NPI to their profiles for being able to destroy the entire afterlife then. 

      Also that isn't the only argument in the OP for Tier 2, why are you saying as if "debunking" a single point somehow invalidates everything else?

      No because destroying the afterlife doesn’t mean they’re destroying the souls along with it, it’s just destroying the place that holds them. And even then, that would indeed just be NPI and not a Low 2-C feat as destroying souls has nothing to do with space-time.

      The other arguments for tier 2 were also refuted, but I guess you weren’t paying attention to that.

      Why? Because you said so?

      No because it’s a moot point.

        Loading editor
    • "An immeasurable speed character could physically travel to the Kaioshin Realm, which no one in Dragon Ball is."

      Isn't immeasurable speed like time travel? How would that let you get to a place that is spatially separated from where you originally are?

        Loading editor
    • Is it ever said that the souls would be destroyed, as opposed to the land they live on?

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:
      Is it ever said that the souls would be destroyed, as opposed to the land they live on?

      Old Kai and Supreme Kai were saying their prayers. If their souls weren't going to be destroyed then they wouldn't be acting as if everything is doomed as they'd merely get Halos as Old Kai did when he gave his life to revive Goku. 

      And from there they can just remake the Universe. Of course, slowly, but it's literally their jobs to create. 

      It's sort of the whole gig where death sort of has no meaning anymore in Dragon Ball since they can just be revived by the next year at the very latest, or in this case just... wait as the Kais work their butts off to make the Universe again. 

        Loading editor
    • It states in the same scan, "Its a is a special realm completely seperate from the macrocosm that the afterlife, universe, and demon realm are all enclosed within".

      Not only that but the afterlife, which is its own space-time is also covered in a Crystalline Sphere. 

      Db low multi


      Db low multi 1
        Loading editor
    • @DragonEmperor An immeasurable character’s movement wouldn’t be bound by conventional space-time.

      @PowerToScale The Afterlife is not its own space-time, and that statement is coming from Goku plus it even says after that it’s unclear what it entails.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: @DragonEmperor An immeasurable character’s movement wouldn’t be bound by conventional space-time.

      Doesn't that make the analogy invalid then? The point of it was to come up with a way of getting to the Kaioshin Realm without needing to mess up or ignore space-time, right?

        Loading editor
    • @DragonEmperor My point is simply that physical travel to the Kaioshin Realm being impossible doesn’t mean jack.

        Loading editor
    • What are you defining physical travel as?

        Loading editor
    • Just because Goku says it doesn't mean he is wrong. Goku states that he isn't able to keep up the super saiyan 3 form because of the different times of the afterlife and living world. So he is wrong and it only can last for for short while for an unknown reason.

      [https://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/477/dragon-ball-71961.jpg https://i8.mangareader.net/dragon-ball/477/dragon-ball-71961.jpg

      Db low multi 2
      ]
        Loading editor
    • @PowerToScale That just means time flows differently in the afterlife. Having a different flow of time doesn’t mean it’s a separate space-time continuum, it’s simply an anomaly.

        Loading editor
    • BTW, just letting everyone know, majority of the scans in the OP have the 4 galaxy statements used, which is retconned to high hell given Jaco references how there's countless galaxies in DBS. Also put me in disagree with this upgrade here for Sera's and Ultima's reasons.

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12


      There are 4 quadrants of galaxies in the dragon ball universe and of those quadrants there are shown to be many galaxies within them.

      so the claim of four galaxies is completely false even going by z's statements.

        Loading editor
    • That's what he basically said, there's no need to repeat that.

        Loading editor
    • That wasn't my point. I said that the majority of the scans used in the OP has the 4 Galaxy quotes rather than the 4 quadrants, which I said was retconned to hell. So therefore they shouldn't even be used as reliable sources when it's retconned.

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12 wrote:
      That wasn't my point. I said that the majority of the scans used in the OP has the 4 Galaxy quotes rather than the 4 quadrants, which I said was retconned to hell. So therefore they shouldn't even be used as reliable sources when it's retconned.

      Which is why the Daizenshuu is used on a case-by-case basis?

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12



      It was never retconed they were always considered to be quadrants

        Loading editor
    • @Akreious again, explain to me how that disproves the point that majority of the scans in the OP is wrong cause it’s using statements that are blatantly retconned.

      @Missy Yes they were. Look through the scans in the OP. They literally say galaxies instead of quadrants.

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12 wrote:
      @Akreious again, explain to me how that disproves the point that majority of the scans in the OP is wrong cause it’s using statements that are blatantly retconned.

      A single statement (4 Galaxies) was retconned. That still leaves other statements to be discussed and/or determined? Plus it's not even like the info was wrong, there are indeed 4 somethings to the Universe. 

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12



      There was not even a mention of the 4 quadrants in the op so what are you talking about.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote:
      You wanna know something funny? The timelines in DB Xenoverse are made of crystalline structures lmao.

      Well, that could explain why the the Future Timeline assumes that werid aesthetic once erased by Zeno (at least in the anime).

        Loading editor
    • Galaxy not galaxy

      "The east, west, south and north [section] of the universe actually govern these galaxies" Called the sections of the universe and govern galaxies in these sections. States that there exists infinite galaxies and beacuse of this they were split into the sections

      Galaxy not galaxy 1

      "The four Kaiou rule over the east, west, south and north [sections] f the universe" Again, reffered to to sections of the universe.

      Galaxy not galaxy (2)

      "Means each region of the universe, which is divided into east, west, south, north" called regions and even mentions the kaio governing them again.

      Galaxy not galaxy 3

      " The sections known as the East-West-North-South Galaxies only utilize Kami as administration units, and the lifeforms who reside in the Living World are able to freely travel the galaxies. Of course, that is supposing they have the technology..." The sections east, west, south and north are known as galaxies, not that they are actual galaxies

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999

      The afterlife having a different space and different flow of time makes it a different space-time continuum 

        Loading editor
    • PowerToScale wrote: @ShadowWarrior1999

      The afterlife having a different space and different flow of time makes it a different space-time continuum 

      No, that is not remotely how it works.

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999

      If one space-time continuum has a this space and this flow of time, while another has a different space and different flow of time, it makes them different space-times.

      Like the ROSAT, the room and universe outside of the room do not share the same space. The flow of time is different, since one day outside is equal to 3 days inside. This would make them different space-times continuums. Regardless of what size they are, they would still be different. 

      This is the same with the afterlife, since they have different spaces and different flows of time, this would make them different space-times continuums.

        Loading editor
    • @PowerToScale They’re shown to be blatantly part of the same universe, a realm within the universe having a different flow of time is not valid evidence of being a separate space-time continuum.

      The ROSAT is just an Earth-sized pocket dimension.

        Loading editor
    • Missy0124 wrote:
      Theglassman12


      There was not even a mention of the 4 quadrants in the op so what are you talking about.

      Did you not bother to read the scans in the OP, cause there are links in the OP that says those very things.

        Loading editor
    • Cant we just settle ln 3A, possibly Low 2-C?

        Loading editor
    • Ted Ed wrote: Cant we just settle ln 3A, possibly Low 2-C?

      No.

        Loading editor
    • @Theglassman12

      I posted more scans for about the 4 galaxies, showing they aren't actual 4 galaxes.

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999

      Realms in universes can still have their own space-times, different space and time flow than the universe around it. Another example I can think of is the demon realm.  

        Loading editor
    • @PowerToScale Which requires proper evidence that you haven’t provided.

      And no the Demon Realm is not one either.

        Loading editor
    • PowerToScale wrote: @Theglassman12

      I posted more scans for about the 4 galaxies, showing they aren't actual 4 galaxes.

      Replace those 4 galaxy scans with the quadrants, cause those are extremely out of date.

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999

      "The living world is split into two dimensions as being like the two sides of sides of a coin" and "The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science" and "Despite the two dimensioins being polar opposites"

      The Demon Realm is mentioned multiple times to be a different dimension in the living world. Where magic has more sway than science. Whereas the universe is run by science. It is also said that the Demon Realm is like the ROSAT (which is different from the universe). 

        Loading editor
    • Please don’t post large images like that, it shrinks the webpage’s size.

        Loading editor
    • @Sera EX

      Sorry, I posted a link and it turned into an image.

        Loading editor
    • Ahem...

      LordTracer wrote: Alright, so:

      Beerus and Goku feat = Has two 3-A statements and like four that could be either 3-A or Low 2-C (just, they’d destroy the universe) One of the 3-A statements says Goku and Beerus would only destroy what is inside of Universe 7.

      This is contradicted by the fact that Goku and Beerus would destroy the Kaioshin realm, which is shown on Toriyama’s Universe 7 map to be outside of Universe 7.

      That means there’s only one 3-A statement and four indeterminate ones.

      Several feats in the later sagas would support the characters being Low 2-C instead of 3-A, such as:

      - Golden Frieza survived Sidra’s Hakai.

      - Beerus wanted to fight SSG Goku as a rival, and therefore would logically be using an actual portion of his power against him and not be holding infinitely back.

      - Base Goku and Vegeta surviving punches from Full Power Jiren.

      - Vegeta being able to destroy the RoSaT, showing he can affect space-time (Note, just in case anyone tries to crucify me over this: not saying the RoSaT is a universe here).

      - The GoDs were impressed with Goku’s power during the Zen Exhibition match, which more than likely would not happen if he were infinitely beneath them.

      - Kefla surpassed Ultra Instinct Omens 1 and 2 with finite multipliers.

      - Belmod was getting scared over the Universe 7 Genkidama and Vegeta Blue’s Final Flash.

      - The Universe 7 Genkidama worrying Marcarita and Belmod, being considered dangerous by Champa and getting props from Arak.

      There’s more examples than that too. These feats would support BoG being Low 2-C since Goku in his base form surpassed SSG and the majority of the verse scale from this feat.

      Also the stuff Zamasu brought up earlier with the Vice Shout supports it being a 4D feat.

        Loading editor
    • More importantly, this thread’s arguments are getting redundant.

      We all know U7 is a time-space. If you look at the map, every realm, including the Realm of the Kais located outside the universe are part of that time-space. The Realm of the Kais is just located outside of normal space via fantasy magic-think. That doesn’t mean the only thing connecting it to the rest of U7 is time. Do you not understand that’s objectively not how time-space works? I’ll explain it in three-dimensional terms.

      Looks at this cube:

      E68A6A24-F146-41BB-B04C-64EF90A7241B

      The entire cube would be the temporal background of the time-space. Every realm within that cube is flat, even if they are spatially disconnected, their nature is the same. Even if in one of those realms within the cube have a different perspective of the cube, the nature is still the same, it’s flat. Two characters (flat within the cube) are fighting and creating shockwaves (also flat) that can travel within the dimensions inside the cube (flat) and affect all the other realms in the cube (again, flat). No matter how many two-dimensional planes get destroyed across a three-dimensional structure, it will never threaten the three-dimensional background of that structure. Same logic applies to three-dimensional physical and non-physical magicthink-induced collateral damage within a four-dimensional environment. All the damage in U7 happened within the time-space at the level of the third dimension.

      Alternate dimensions, other realms, and pocket realities are by their very nature inaccessible to normal space. They are spatially disconnected, but not only connected through time. That’s not how it works. You can’t suggest that multiplying 3D by any number of times reaches the level of 4D through spatial disconnection. Even High 3-A feats can be done within a Low 2-C range, but if time (the fourth dimension necessary for Low 2-C) was not significantly affected, it doesn’t count. Simply because some god in his cozy little realm outside the normal space of his universe was afraid he’d also bite the dust, doesn’t mean the entire time-space was being threatened since they explicitly said the entire cosmos (zenuchuu) was in danger and Dragon Ball accurately distinguishes “cosmos” from “time-space” as evidenced by both the Cell and Goku Black sagas, as well as Heroes and Xenoverse.

      If the Gods were four-dimensional beings viewing the rest of U7 as spatially flat, then their worries would definitely imply Low 2-C destruction. But they are not.

        Loading editor
    • Theglassman12 wrote: BTW, just letting everyone know, majority of the scans in the OP have the 4 galaxy statements used, which is retconned to high hell given Jaco references how there's countless galaxies in DBS. Also put me in disagree with this upgrade here for Sera's and Ultima's reasons.

      This is a misconception. It’s not a retcon, it’s a slight translation error. Galaxy and Galaxies translates to one word in Japanese, so what was intended to be written was North Galaxies, East Galaxies etc. Even if that one peat was wrong, it’s an association fallacy to assume it’s all wrong.

        Loading editor
    • Let us all just agree on 3-A, possibly Low 2-C

        Loading editor
    • Just to throw in my two cents, I see nothing Low 2-C from the arguments provided, and Sera makes a good point in her most recent post.

        Loading editor
    • from this thread, I get the impression that Goku and Beerus were causing minor damage along a 4-D axis (parallel worlds), making them infinitesimal 4-D. I'm not sure what tier that is.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Sera “Look at this cube” EX.

        Loading editor
    • @God of Procrastination

      That goes against the standards for Attack Potency.

        Loading editor
    • Also, about the “souls” argument. Kid Buu came real close to killing Vegeta’s soul. They were worried he’d be gone for good if he died again. So no, souls aren’t anything special.

        Loading editor
    • Is Sera’s comment supposed to be a reply to me? Because if so, my point seems to be being misconstrued... again...

        Loading editor
    • It was a reply to any argument regarding the World of the Kais being outside the normal universe.

        Loading editor
    • As the universes weren't destroyed, only their contents, you could argue that it would just be range and a higher degree of attack potency.

      What would infinitesimal 4-D be, though.

        Loading editor
    • @Pritti I believe the argument has to do with destroying the non-corporal bodies of the soul, so the Vegeta one wouldn't cut it because he got his body back.

      (Also, I remember the anime saying something about destroying him will completely kill him for good, but I don't recall this in the manga. Could you post a scan?)

        Loading editor
    • The God Of Procrastination wrote:
      As the universes weren't destroyed, only their contents, you could argue that it would just be range and a higher degree of attack potency.

      What would infinitesimal 4-D be, though.

      https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Tiering_System

      Based on the tiering system it looks 4D would be anywhere from High Universal Level to Universal+

        Loading editor
    • No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

        Loading editor
    • Not sure if I’m understanding this right, but I’ll try to contest, I guess.

      - “We all know U7 is a time-space. If you look at the map, every realm, including the Realm of the Kais located outside the universe are part of that time-space. The Realm of the Kais is just located outside of normal space via fantasy magic-think. That doesn’t mean the only thing connecting it to the rest of U7 is time. Do you not understand that’s objectively not how time-space works?

      > Not entirely sure where you got the idea of the Kaioshin realm being connected to U7 only via time, but if Universe 7 itself is a time-space and the Kaioshin realm is distinctly shown to be outside of Universe 7, would it not be outside of that time-space?

      - “No matter how many two-dimensional planes get destroyed across a three-dimensional structure, it will never threaten the three-dimensional background of that structure.

      - “You can’t suggest that multiplying 3D by any number of times reaches the level of 4D through spatial disconnection.

      > I’m... pretty sure nobody was arguing anything similar to these.

      - “Simply because some god in his cozy little realm outside the normal space of his universe was afraid he’d also bite the dust, doesn’t mean the entire time-space was being threatened”

      > Sigh... the argument is not that the Kaioshin realm being threatened instantly means the feat is Low 2-C. The argument is that the Kaioshin realm being threatened directly contradicts one of the two statements in the series that imply 3-A, as Goku and Beerus were going to destroy something distinctly outside of the universe. That means there is a single 3-A statement left and several indeterminate statements that just say the universe will be destroyed. The feats later in the series, as well as the whole dimensional walls thing Zamasu brought up, support why the feat (and those indeterminate statements) should be considered Low 2-C instead of 3-A. The Kaioshin realm being outside of Universe 7 was never meant to be what made the feat Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • You’re not understanding me here.

      No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

      No need to. All of Universe 7 exist within a time-space. What’s there to debunk?

      The argument is that the Kaioshin realm being threatened directly contradicts one of the two statements in the series that imply 3-A, as Goku and Beerus were going to destroy something distinctly outside of the universe.

      Destroying something outside the universe is still not Low 2-C. There are no Low 2-C statements to begin with. At all. That’s the entire point here.

        Loading editor
    • > “Destroying something outside the universe is still not Low 2-C. There are no Low 2-C statements to begin with. At all. That’s the entire point here.”

      > I literally just said twice destroying the Kaioshin realm wasn’t what made the feat Low 2-C... I addressed there are several statements where Goku and Beerus were just stated to be destroying the universe. That can either be considered 3-A or Low 2-C. The feats performed later in the series would imply Low 2-C, as basically everyone scales to that feat.

        Loading editor
    • No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

      So what you’re saying is the Macrocosm doesn’t exist in a time-space? Then how is this even remotely Low 2-C?

        Loading editor
    • That can either be 3-A or Low 2-C

      And I’ve debunked why it cannot be Low 2-C. Feats later on in the series performed by stronger characters don’t change a thing.

        Loading editor
    • Pritti wrote: No one actually debunked the crystals like timelines, dimensional walls, or even provided a scan that shows the Macrocosm inside a time space.

      So what you’re saying is the Macrocosm doesn’t exist in a time-space? Then how is this even remotely Low 2-C?

      I’m saying it is the space time and the realm exists outside of it.

        Loading editor
    • The Macrocosm is not the time-space. That’s a completely different term in the first place. The World of the Kais is still in U7’s time-space. There’s alternate timeline counterparts of Universe 10’s World of the Kais as shown in the Trunks saga. They are not outside their universes’ time-space, just outside normal space.

        Loading editor
    • Would you mind explaining again why it can’t be Low 2-C? And considering that everyone scales from this feat... the fact that they perform Low 2-C feats kinda shows they were initially supposed to be Low 2-C as nothing implies they got infinitely stronger in the middle of a saga. And there was also the point I made referring to specifically to Battle of Gods, where nothing implies Beerus was holding infinitely back against Goku and it would make no sense for him to be doing so when he wanted to fight the Super Saiyan God as a rival. And Beerus, while fighting a weaker opponent in Rage Vegeta, used an actual percentage of his power. Which would still be Low 2-C. Also there was the fact that base Vegeta could affect space-time.

        Loading editor
    • Because there’s zero evidence whatsoever that this even comes close to Low 2-C.

      All the future feats mean little. The story is already a mess so ridiculous levels of power-escalation are to be expected.

      Then again, there’s the argument from the JP fans that no one but Zeno is Tier 2 to start with, but let’s not open that can of worms.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: The Macrocosm is not the time-space. That’s a completely different term in the first place. The World of the Kais is still in U7’s time-space. There’s alternate timeline counterparts of Universe 10’s World of the Kais as shown in the Trunks saga. They are not outside their universes’ time-space, just outside normal space.

      They’re separated by 4D walls, that wasn’t properly addressed.

        Loading editor
    • Ooga booga (2)





      The Kaioshin realm is stated to be completely seperate from the macrocosm, which contains the afterlife, universe demon realm and all other enclosed spaces. This would include the space-time of the macrocosm as well. Not only that but it is in the daizenshuu the official databook. And even showed on the official map of the Dragon Ball Macrocosm to not be part of it. it is also stated that only high level transportation techiniques like the ones the kais have can let you travel to and from the kaioshin relam, and no character has flown to it.

      completely meaning:

      Totally; utterly. (https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/completely)

      to the greatest degree possible. (https://www.ldoceonline.com/dictionary/completely)

      wholly, entirely, completely, totally, all, altogether, whole (https://www.definitions.net/definition/Completely)

      so as to be complete; with everything necessary | to a complete degree or to the full or entire extent (`whole' is often used informally for `wholly') (https://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/completely)

      in every way or as much as possible (https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/completely)

        Loading editor
    • It evolves around the macrocosm like a moon. Take time to understand what that means. That scan says nothing about a 4D wall. You’re throwing in a term that isn’t even used in the scans provided.

      “Dimension”? Jigen = dimension but like always, can mean “realm”.

        Loading editor
    • Let’s not use dictionaries.

        Loading editor
    • Using dictionaries is a flawed agument. Dragon Ball already shows low 2-C feats on the show itself.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not talking about the feat, I'm talking about the range. "Walls between dimensions" separates the ROSAT and the universe (and yes I know it's earth sized). The ROSAT is disconnect from the universe by space and time. If these walls separate the ROSAT and the universe via space time, then the Kaioshin Realm from U7's space time as well because these walls were stated to be between the dimensions. Is plain and simple, right in front of your face, it's called putting two and two together. 

      Repost.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: Because there’s zero evidence whatsoever that this even comes close to Low 2-C.

      All the future feats mean little. The story is already a mess so ridiculous levels of power-escalation are to be expected.

      Then again, there’s the argument from the JP fans that no one but Zeno is Tier 2 to start with, but let’s not open that can of worms.

      And there’s zero evidence that Beerus was holding literally infinitely back against God Goku. In fact, Beerus himself stated he was using an actual percentage of his power to take out the far weaker Rage Vegeta. The story being a “mess” doesn’t mean these character just randomly got infinitely stronger. Especially when Vegeta in the Black Arc showed he could affect space-time, which should be impossible if he were 3-A, despite only gaining a finite amount of strength from the U6 Arc to the Black Arc. Same with the Black Arc to the ToP, Vegeta only got a finite amount stronger yet he was able to pressure Jiren for a time. There’s no evidence of anyone getting infinitely stronger anywhere.

        Loading editor
    • That still doesn’t mean anything translates to Low 2-C Attack Potency wise. I’ve already explained to you why countless times but then the argument keeps getting changed as if the other points change anything. They really don’t.

      There can be dimensional walls within a time-space, and minor time-space feats are not Low 2-C as described on the tier system page.

        Loading editor
    • I think u guys forgot that Base Goku and Frieza survives a Hakai and Goku and Vegeta survived Jiren hits (Low 2C) + Frieza survived for an hour getting beaten by Broly (also Low 2C)

      Again I always wanted to talk about the Universe....why is it having a Observable perspective when the Universe in general is a Space And Time

        Loading editor
    • All that does in result in range. She already explained why in her cube example. Geometrically speaking, it means nothing.

        Loading editor
    • That was a significantly minor amount of hakai energy that was given to a fodder assassin. It wasn’t anything special. Frieza got rekt by Toppo’s Hakai and he’s not on, say, Belmond’s level.

        Loading editor
    • A minor amount of Low 2-C is still Low 2-C though.

        Loading editor
    • No it’s not. We even had minor 4D feats be High 3-A for awhile.

        Loading editor
    • How exactly is a finite portion of 4D energy all of a sudden not 4D?

        Loading editor
    • By range what do you guys mean? Like specifically what level?

        Loading editor
    • It’s not 4D energy.

        Loading editor
    • Except Sidra is Low 2-C... so...

        Loading editor
    • You realize Hakai is EE right? That’s hax. Why it’s being treated like it’s AP related is beyond me since it just means Goku and Frieza have resistance to EE.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote: By range what do you guys mean? Like specifically what level?

        Loading editor
    • Thank you for helping out Sera. Sorry about that this must be quite tiresome for you.

        Loading editor
    • Because the Hakai is destruction energy that comes from the Hakaishin’s power. Also bump

      LordTracer wrote: And there’s zero evidence that Beerus was holding literally infinitely back against God Goku. In fact, Beerus himself stated he was using an actual percentage of his power to take out the far weaker Rage Vegeta. The story being a “mess” doesn’t mean these character just randomly got infinitely stronger. Especially when Vegeta in the Black Arc showed he could affect space-time, which should be impossible if he were 3-A, despite only gaining a finite amount of strength from the U6 Arc to the Black Arc. Same with the Black Arc to the ToP, Vegeta only got a finite amount stronger yet he was able to pressure Jiren for a time. There’s no evidence of anyone getting infinitely stronger anywhere.

        Loading editor
    • I need to go to bed so I’ll just say this:

      U7 may be depicted as a globe, but that globe is flat compared to the time-space continuum it exists within. The world of the Kais, also a globe, is flat. Breaching the dimensional barrier between two flat surfaces is not significant enough for this feat to work. At best we can say it’s range related. It’s the equivalent of many planetary scale feats end up being High 6-A instead of 5-B due to the Earth itself still being intact.

        Loading editor
    • What exactly implies that’s how it works though? And the way you’ve been saying it makes it seem like Universe 7 itself is the space-time continuum, which the Kaioshin realm would then be outside. And there’s still the fact that Beerus wasn’t infinitely holding back against God Goku.

        Loading editor
    • They have some good range, though.

        Loading editor
    • The Kai realm is part of Universe 7’s time-space it’s just outside the normal space. The mortal universe =/= universe 7. The mortal universe + afterlife =/= Universe 7. Universe 7 = every realm including the Kai realm. All share the same temporal background. Even the ROSAT and Kai Realm have alternate timeline versions, they are completely independent from U7’s temporal background.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:
      And there’s still the fact that Beerus wasn’t infinitely holding back against God Goku.

      Dragon Ball doesn't treat the gap between 3D and 4D as infinite, that's just it, really.

        Loading editor
    • But we do here... so it should still be considered Low 2-C. Beerus using 1 - 10% of his power should still be considered Low 2-C (especially with how high into the tier he is), and he was using more than that against God Goku.

        Loading editor
    • When was it ever stated that beerus was using only 1% to 10% of his power? Because:

      • Anything related to the difference between Goku, Vegeta and Beerus (and even Whis, but whatever) in the BoG and RoF movies was retconned both in the anime and the manga.
      • Whenever Beerus mentioned anything about this same exact comparison, it was revelaed that he was just lying because he was suppressing himself the whole time.
      • In the manga, it's explained that SSG is around 10% of the SSB Transformation in power. A Full Power SSB (which, tw, is a different transformation) Post Zamasu-Arc Vegeta was effortlessly one-shotted by Beerus in the manga. And this same transformation was used by Goku the very arc before to match Fusion Zamasu, who 2 regular SSBs were no match for. And this is the manga right here, where there  is no 4D stuff what so ever.
        Loading editor
    • In the anime, Episode... 8, if I’m remembering correctly. Right before Beerus KOed Rage Mode Vegeta, he said; “It’s been a while since I used 1% of my power.”

        Loading editor
    • ... Which was revealed to be false. Great.

      And btw, I know of a character who became infinitely weaker becuse restricted to 10% of her power .

        Loading editor
    • How exactly? It’s not like Beerus would have been lying to Vegeta like he was against Goku, there would be no reason for that as he wasn’t trying to push Vegeta to power up further like he did with Goku.

      That character’s 10% power is put at “possibly 2-A,” which is on the same level of infinity as her full power, so... that doesn’t really help your case.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote: How exactly? It’s not like Beerus would have been lying to Vegeta like he was against Goku, there would be no reason for that as he wasn’t trying to push Vegeta to power up further like he did with Goku.

      He was lying, when him and Whis were flying back home Whis mentioned he was holding back.

        Loading editor
    • Also I’d like to note that Dragon Ball not considering the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C as infinite... is just more backing to Low 2-C God Goku.

        Loading editor
    • This

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan wrote: He was lying, when him and Whis were flying back home Whis mentioned he was holding back.

      He was lying to Goku, as he had told Goku he was going all-out. And 1% of his full power is a level of suppression, so even if he was referring to Vegeta, that changes nothing.

        Loading editor
    • I mean by that logic SSBKKx10 surpassed Beerus.

        Loading editor
    • Not... really? The percentage Beerus used against God Goku is unknown, all we know is that it’s more than 1%.

        Loading editor
    • More than 10% actually, the 1% statement was a mistranslation in very early subs of the episode that were rushed out, Beerus actually states he used 10% so Zamasu is right about it leading to stuff like SSBKK×10 Goku surpassing Beerus unless we try and argue SSBKK×10 Goku>>SSB Goku>>>Base Goku>>SSG Goku is way less then a ten times increase.

        Loading editor
    • I think that weakens your point. I mean look at this:

      Beerus > Current Blue KKx20 > SSB >> SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS > Current Base Goku >> Black arc SSB > SSG > SS3 > SS2 > SS > Base >> BoG SSG.

      In no way he used even 1%. Otherwise that would mean that from Black arc Base to Current SSB isn't even a 100x increase even though we know that's not true.

        Loading editor
    • Alright, whatever, ignore the percentages. Beerus was still using a finite amount of power against SSG Goku, SSG Goku would be Low 2-C from that.

        Loading editor
    • Dude, we have already touched upon how many fictional characters in many fictional verses can suppress themselves even by multiple degrees of infinity.

      Even if Goku was Low 2-C at that moment, he would still be able to suppress himself to the point where a gunshot would damage him, as shown in both anime and manga.

        Loading editor
    • And what exactly implies Beerus was doing that here?

        Loading editor
    • The fact that the verse itself allows this exact mechanic, and that it doesn't seem to treat teh difference between 3D and 4D as infinite. Simple as that.

      Also the fact that there is a gigantic scaling chain before Goku even starts to compare to a suppressed Jiren.

        Loading editor
    • The fact that the verse doesn’t treat it as an infinite difference just supports the idea of Low 2-C God Goku, because Beerus would have only been holding back to a finite degree.

      And Low 2-C is a massive tier, such a scaling chain doesn’t mean anything at all.

        Loading editor
    • @DMB 1 Who is an unknown degree of superiority over someone who is baseline via sheer size.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:
      The fact that the verse doesn’t treat it as an infinite difference just supports the idea of Low 2-C God Goku, because Beerus would have only been holding back to a finite degree.

      And Low 2-C is a massive tier, such a scaling chain doesn’t mean anything at all.

      I don't understand this argument, as fiction does that a lot, and even the other regular characters managed to get from Cell/Buu Saga level to at least around current SSJ Goku.

        Loading editor
    • As far as Dragon Ball is concerned not even the gap between 9-B and Low 2-C is infinite since Goku went from the former to the latter via training and transformations that the series never treats as anything but a finite increase. Beerus could very easily be holding back to 3-A due to the series logic of Low 2-C being something you can achieve without being literally infinitely stronger then the likes of that random bear bandit at the start of the series.

        Loading editor
    • How do you not understand Beerus holding back to a finite degree would equal Low 2-C God Goku? And yes, other characters reached this level, how exactly does that matter?

        Loading editor
    • You'd have to prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree in the first place. And no, him lying about not going all out isn't enough proof.

      In fact, by that very logic, you could argue that him scaling to Infinite Zamasu would be an outlier.

        Loading editor
    • Dust Collector wrote: As far as Dragon Ball is concerned not even the gap between 9-B and Low 2-C is infinite since Goku went from the former to the latter via training and transformations that the series never treats as anything but a finite increase. Beerus could very easily be holding back to 3-A due to the series logic of Low 2-C being something you can achieve without being literally infinitely stronger then the likes of that random bear bandit at the start of the series.

      Yet with how this site’s tiering system, Beerus, someone who is at one of the highest ends of Low 2-C possible, holding back to a finite degree would still be Low 2-C, correct?

        Loading editor
    • Someone said something about him having to use a finite percentage of his power against Vegeta. Though he still wouldn't scale, as (100-99.9...)% is finite.

        Loading editor
    • DMB 1 wrote: You'd have to prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree in the first place. And no, him lying about not going all out isn't enough proof.

      In fact, by that very logic, you could argue that him scaling to Infinite Zamasu would be an outlier.

      How about the fact that literally nothing implies Beerus was suppressing himself to an infinite degree? And by what you said yourself, if the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C isn’t considered infinite in Dragon Ball, Beerus would have been using a finite amount of power regardless.

        Loading editor
    • My Vote is Neutral. 

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:

      How about the fact that literally nothing implies Beerus was suppressing himself to an infinite degree? And by what you said yourself, if the gap between 3-A and Low 2-C isn’t considered infinite in Dragon Ball, Beerus would have been using a finite amount of power regardless.

      What else would you want for it to imply it?

      • The gap itself isn't treated as infinite
      • Characters can suppress themselvs by degrees of infinity, bot in Dragon Ball and in a lot of other fictional works.
      • People can break this boundy by sheer training.
      • Our wiki's standards can very well accept all of this.

      And you are repeating the same "argument" over and over and over again...

        Loading editor
    • You’re contradicting yourself with your first two points. If the gap isn’t infinite in Dragon Ball, how can they suppress themselves to infinite degrees? And the majority of your points just prove that Beerus was holding back to a finite degree, which by the wiki’s standards, should at the least warrant a possibly or likely Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • If people can get to 4-B to Low 2-C by sheer, regualar training, as well as suppress themselves to such degree, Beerus can do that too.

        Loading editor
    • And what implies he did so? Beerus wanted a rival, that’s the entire reason he sought out the Super Saiyan God in the first place. It makes far more sense, in context, that Beerus would only be suppressed to a finite degree. And by the wiki’s standards, and as shown with the example you so kindly gave, that would warrant God Goku at the very least becoming “3-A, possibly Low 2-C.”

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, and he also found out that some random fodder from any other universe just so happened to be much stronger than the "Legenday Super Sayian God"

        Loading editor
    • And that changes the amount of power Beerus used against Goku how, exactly?

        Loading editor
    • Beerus simply saw potential in Goku, as him being "powerful" is contradicted how much more people later are stronger than him, as well as him being nothing compared to a GoD.

      OPeople can train to reach 4D levels. People can suppress their power from 4D to 3D levels (does that mean that Freeza was always Low 2-C because he didn't have to train infinitely to reach 4D levels of power?). Thus, there is no reason Beerus didn't do that, and no contradiction based on that.

      You have to proviede evidence as of why wouldn't have suppressed himself infinitely since nothing contradicts that didn't happen, as pretty much everyone as agreed that they have no actual Low 2-C feats.

        Loading editor
    • Hm, let’s see, how about the fact that Dragon Ball doesn’t treat 3-A to Low 2-C as an infinite gap, which you said, and would therefore mean Beerus is using a finite percentage of his power. And by this wiki’s standards, that would be ‘possibly Low 2-C’ at the very least. And how about the fact that in literally the next saga Whis described the difference between Goku/Vegeta and Beerus as finite, further proving Beerus did not suppress himself to a literally infinite degree and again warranting a ‘possibly Low 2-C’ at least.

        Loading editor
    • Dragon Ball may not treat it as infinite, but we do, thus Goku doesn't scale to Low 2-C.

      I do not remember Whis descriving that difference as actually finite.

      As for Asramelech, I remember her scaling from another feat and not being "possibly 2-A" because of that. Guess I was wrong. beu she was weakened to that state because of a battle where she was heavily damaged, not because of her choosing not to use herr full power.

        Loading editor
    • @DMB

      Thank you for helping out,

        Loading editor
    • I was told to close this, it's been going overboard, far too circular, and toxicity levels are going too far and a whole bunch of other stuff. My apologizes, but it must be done.

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.