FANDOM


  • Sera EX
    Sera EX closed this thread because:
    Toxicity levels increasing.
    15:15, October 1, 2019

    Cal wrote this, I won't participate much but here goes his CRT.

    So recently, Sonic has been upgraded to scale to the power of 4 Chaos Emeralds due to beating Chaos 4, with others beating Chaos 2 and Chaos 1.

    Now that's normally okay. You beat a character, you scale to a character. Easy, right?

    Well, there's a major problem with that, and that's that the franchise has no idea how to treat Chaos. The most consistent form the characters have been matched with is Chaos 0, the one that absorbed zero Chaos Emeralds. This is the case in Sonic Battle, where it's Chaos 0 that the cast is portrayed equal to (and while this is pure game mechanics, Chaos 0 hits the hardest out of everyone in the game). Sonic Adventure 2 Battle portrays Chaos 0 as equal to Knuckles and Rouge, despite SA having Knux beat Chaos 2. Then Generations comes out and has Sonic beat Perfect Chaos despite Super Sonic being required to take him down. Yet in Forces, despite everyone seemingly having gotten stronger, it's Chaos 0 that people are scared of.

    And that's the thing. Nobody takes Chaos 0 lightly in any appearance he shows up in, despite the fact that he should be fodder to Big the Cat if we're being realistic.

    And being honest, scaling to higher Chaos forms creates a massive matter of inconsistencies. For example, Cheese, a Chao, scales to Sonic, who according to the profiles is Chaos 4 level. Chaos is the Chao's god. Yet this random Chao is equal to an amped version of its god? I don't think so. And it also leads to some other inconsistencies, like Eggman's casual robots that he pilots, like the Egg Mobiles, or things like his fodder Eggrobos (and not the one from Lost World) being stronger than his doomsday weapons like the one in Sonic Advance 3. That would be like if a TIE Fighter wound up being stronger than the Death Star. It's a massive inconsistency.

    People are going to bring up the argument of "Oh, Chaos 0 must've just gotten stronger over time!" No, that's pure headcanon. This is never stated once in the series, and it's ridiculous to say that a character somehow became stronger than he was when he absorbed four godlike items despite nothing saying he got stronger.

    The cast should only scale from Chaos 0, not Chaos 4. And if this is the only feat they have that scales to the power of an Emerald, they should be scaled to the baseline planetary statements of Emerl and the other numerous planet busting statements like the one in Riders.

      Loading editor
    • FML.

        Loading editor
    • Following. Obviously I agree because duh.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Following. Obviously I agree because duh.

      This made me chuckle.

        Loading editor
    • Is Chaos even capable of getting stronger normally?.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with this, I was going to address the over the place circular scaling in more detail eventually, but this is a decent start.

        Loading editor
    • LordGriffin1000 wrote: Is Chaos even capable of getting stronger normally?.

      Idk ask the writers

        Loading editor
    • I disagree with this, will elaborate later

        Loading editor
    • @LordGriffon, not really. Most of his power is dependent on the Chaos Emeralds.

        Loading editor
    • Seems like solid enough reasoning but Ill wait for more input before taking a hard stance.

        Loading editor
    • “The most consistent form the characters have matched with is Chaos 0, the one that absorbed zero Chaos Emeralds.”

      Except throughout most of Chao 0’s appearances, barring Sonic Battle and his dubiously canon appearance in Sonic Adventure 2, Chaos 0 is treated as a pushover. • In Sonic Adventure, Sonic fodderizes Chaos 0 and proceeds to defeat his subsequent transformations throughout the rest of the game. • In Sonic Forces, Chaos 0 is one shot by Classic Sonic, and then in a later scene a literal army of Chaos 0s is dealt with by the whole cast and a bunch of background characters. • Then of course we have Generations, where Sonic defeats Perfect Chaos, who is massively superior to Chaos 0

      Sonic Battle and SA2 can be dismissed as outliers unless the theory that Chaos 0 became stronger from his SA appearance holds weight.

      As for Chaos 0 “not being taken lightly”, the actual feats/showings should take precedence over the character being hyped up by statements in this case, or else we have Infinite scaling above Solaris due to being stated to be “Sonic’s most powerful enemy yet”.

      ”And being honest, scaling to higher Chaos forms creates a massive matter of inconsistencies. For example, Cheese, a Chao, scales to Sonic, who according to our profiles is Chaos 4 level. Chaos is the Chao’s god. Yet this random Chao is equal to an amped version of its God? I don’t think so.”

      This is an Argument from Incredulity. It’s never explained why certain characters in the series are as strong as they are, but they’ve displayed the power levels through feats. Tails and Cream for example are diminutive, adolescent sidekicks yet they’re shown capable of fighting on par with “all-powerful” fire demons and androids with millennia worth of combat data.

      ”And it also leads to some other inconsistencies, like Eggman’s casual robots that he pilots, like the Egg Mobiles, or and things like his fodder Eggrobos being stronger than his doomsday weapons like the one in Sonic Advance 3. That would be like if a TIE Fighter wound up being stronger than the Death Star. It’s a massive inconsistency.”

      First of all, no, random Eggrobos from Sonic 3 don’t scale to the Emeralds. They’re Low 6-B via scaling from Classic Sonic.

      ”The cast should only scale from Chaos 0, not Chaos 4. And if this is the only feat that scales to the the power of an Emerald, they should be downgraded to the baseline planetary statements of Emerl and the other numerous planet busting statements like in Riders.”

      I already addressed why Chaos 0 scaling to the cast is flawed, but Cal, you do realize that the characters fought Emerl while he was empowered by Chaos Emeralds, right? Even if them scaling to Chaos 1-4 was flawed, they’d still scale to the Emeralds via fighting Emerl.

      So yeah, I disagree completely

        Loading editor
    • I disagree with the downgrade for User’s reasons

        Loading editor
    • I wish I could be more useful here but I can’t to such an extent but User wrapped it up nicely.

        Loading editor
    • Theuser789 is spot on.

      The downgrade doesn’t make any sense.

        Loading editor
    • strongly disagree with the downgrade, chaos 0 is not the only benchmark here to powerscale characters; user's points make the most sense here 

        Loading editor
    • Chaos 0 was still considered a threat to Knuckles in Sonic Adventure, and has persisted as a strong opponent in both Sonic Battle and Sonic Forces. And most if not all of Base Sonic's "Tier 5" feats are based on multiple steps of reverse power-scaling. But that's for another day.

        Loading editor
    • >Cal makes a CRT Re-nerfing Base Sonic

      >DDM Jumps on immediately

      Ah shit here we go again

      Obviously, I heavily disagree with Cal's points and agree with User's. We never get an explanation to how Mario is Tier 4, or how Mega Man is Tier 5, or how the Officio Assassinorum is tier 8. The website explains why direct feats arn't required. Power scaling EXISTS

        Loading editor
    • The Smashor wrote: >Cal makes a CRT Re-nerfing Base Sonic

      >DDM Jumps on immediately

      Ah shit here we go again

      Obviously, I heavily disagree with Cal's points and agree with User's. We never get an explanation to how Mario is Tier 4, or how Mega Man is Tier 5, or how the Officio Assassinorum is tier 8. The website explains why direct feats arn't required. Power scaling EXISTS

      Double standard fallacy/false equivalency

      I'll get to the rest shortly.

        Loading editor
    • Don't cover my points. If you cover anyone's points, cover the person that argued with you's points.

      INB4 your arguements boil down to "You are wrong and my name is green"

        Loading editor
    • Uh oh.

        Loading editor
    • And again with the "No Context" or "Case by Case scenarios". Megaman is Tier 5 based on multiple feats that are literally his own feats with no power up shenanigans. And Mario has a bunch of Tier 4 feats without power ups and constantly defeats Tier 4 bosses without the need for power ups. And Mario also has multiple Tier 2 feats in base form that are outliers, so his Tier 4 feats are actually his mid tier showings. Sonic also has a bunch of supposed Tier 5 stuff; when half of them are either a statement with no context rather than feats, aren't feats at all, or are performed by characters empowered by all 7 Emeralds and thus should be far above Base Sonic. Again, avoid talking about Mario on a Sonic thread whenever possible because it leads to bad blood a lot.

      It's also obvious there's too many people who don't know what false equivalency or straw man even means. Also, don't use "colored names" as an argument.

        Loading editor
    • Your best point is you got speculation of Tails being fearful of Chaos 0 and he was suffering PSTD.  

      Chaos 4 is beaten by base characters straight up.

        Loading editor
    • Chaos 0 would already scale to an Emerald since he fought Emerl who is powered by them.

      So the scaling to 1.4 yottatons stays.

        Loading editor
    • @DDM

      Sonic also has multiple 5-B feats, we spent two threads discussing that

        Loading editor
    • Mephistus wrote: Your best point is you got speculation of Tails being fearful of Chaos 0 and he was suffering PSTD.  

      Despite the fact Tails has beaten Chaos 4 with no problem.Chaos 0 is looked down as almost a pushover to Sonic and the main cast.

        Loading editor
    • Mario's feats are all from scaling. Sonic's feats are all from scaling. I fail to see the issue.

      Bad blood or not, I know Cal is a Mario supporter and it's the easiest way to call him out on his double standard.

        Loading editor
    • Mephistus wrote: Your best point is you got speculation of Tails being fearful of Chaos 0 and he was suffering PSTD.  

      This as well, they do say Tails has lost it

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Chaos 0 would already scale to an Emerald since he fought Emerl who is powered by them.

      So the scaling to 1.4 yottatons stays.

      You reaffirmed what I was talking about when it came to circular scaling. So Chaos 0 > Chaos 0? That doesn't make sense. Heck, Knuckles lost to single emerald Emerl at that, yet is Chaos 4 level. There's a lot of circular scaling going on in the series. And that's different from powerscaling.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly,I see that whole cutscene as a cool way to introduce Classic Sonic that's context doesn’t make sense.

        Loading editor
    • Also, Chaos Emeralds are far too inconsistent to be taken seriously, and shouldn't be part of the power scaling chain for the feat of one Emeralds. Chaos Emeralds are 5-B based on one feat, when two or more struggled to do feats far less then that constantly. When a certain other verse has many of a "Common power source" and many of that same having many tier 4 feats, and yet people try to pass the hundreds of feats equals outlier but this feat isn't an outlier based on 1 feat followed by a whole bunch of backwards scaling.

        Loading editor
    • @Cal

      The way you have it is Adventure Tails > Modern Tails, which isn't much better.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Chaos 0 would already scale to an Emerald since he fought Emerl who is powered by them.

      So the scaling to 1.4 yottatons stays.

      You reaffirmed what I was talking about when it came to circular scaling. So Chaos 0 > Chaos 0? That doesn't make sense. Heck, Knuckles lost to single emerald Emerl at that, yet is Chaos 4 level. There's a lot of circular scaling going on in the series. And that's different from powerscaling.

      No, Chaos 0 already is that level and emeralds boost him futher, plus Knuckles beat Chaos 2 in a 1-1 in a completely fair way

        Loading editor
    • About Chaos. It's never stated that Chaos 0 is fodder. The only feats of him being fodderized is gameplay. I could level up my Pokemon team to lvl 100 and stomp the game but doesn't mean that Red no-diff'd Blue. With Forces, no, it's not just Tails suffering from PTSD. One, that's your own interpretation and purely headcanon. Two, Chaos 0 was capable of hurting Sonic as well as the others, and is treated on par with Zavok, Shadow, Metal Sonic, and Infinite. If you're saying that Chaos 0 was no-diff'd by the cast then you're saying Shadow and Metal Sonic get no-diff'd by the cast. There's undeniable inconsistencies here.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with what User said above. This downgrade doesn't make much sense at all.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard
      The real cal howard removed this reply because:
      23:14, September 30, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • They straight up said that Tails lost it Cal, plus that same Chaos gets one shoot by Classic Sonic

        Loading editor
    • Provide statements or scans of Chaos 0 being stated to be fodder. All you're going on is the interpretation of Chaos 0 being fodder when he has several feats of him not being so.

        Loading editor
    • It really doesn’t need to be stated in game tbh when cutscenes and gameplay indicate he ain’t that tough.SA Sonic beat him with next to no problem.

        Loading editor
    • @Smashor stop with the bad attitude since two people who you don’t like bc they disagree with you are on this thread.

      Anyhow, I’m neutral

        Loading editor
    • I did in my big comment?

      Plus he being fodder doesn't matter, he simply scales to it in zero and the emeralds amp him further than that, no circular scaling here, plus the whole Shadow throwing his emerald in Battle because he was already using it's full power

        Loading editor
    • Chaos 0 can still be able to fight people who can fight his stronger forms. Many people on this wiki downscale from their stronger forms. Chaos 0 isn't fodder, but he isn't tier 6 either.

        Loading editor
    • Oblivion Lightning wrote: It really doesn’t need to be stated in game tbh when cutscenes and gameplay indicate he ain’t that tough.SA Sonic beat him with next to no problem.

      Yeah and gameplay can also have Link fodderize Ganon. Gameplay isn't necessarily canon.

        Loading editor
    • "We never get an explanation for how the Officio Assassinorum is tier 8"

      They're explicitly augmented but okay

      Anyways I only really commented because of that, but I guess now that I'm here I'll pick a side at some point or another. Neutral for now.

        Loading editor
    • The Smashor wrote: Chaos 0 can still be able to fight people who can fight his stronger forms. Many people on this wiki downscale from their stronger forms. Chaos 0 isn't fodder, but he isn't tier 6 either.

      This as well, people like Cream downscale from him, not that they are his level or stronger

        Loading editor
    • Theuser789 wrote: They straight up said that Tails lost it Cal, plus that same Chaos gets one shoot by Classic Sonic

      "Tails lost it" isn't the same thing as saying Tails has PTSD. Tails being scared is him losing it, not him having a mental breakdown (though given he thinks Sonic's dead, that's not impossible).

      Shadow also one-shots Shadow.

        Loading editor
    • And Chaos already being on that level doesn't make sense. Chaos 0 would scale to being equal to the main cast, who by your account gets destroyed by them no problem.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Also, Chaos Emeralds are far too inconsistent to be taken seriously, and shouldn't be part of the power scaling chain for the feat of one Emeralds. Chaos Emeralds are 5-B based on one feat, when two or more struggled to do feats far less then that constantly. When a certain other verse has many of a "Common power source" and many of that same having many tier 4 feats, and yet people try to pass the hundreds of feats equals outlier but this feat isn't an outlier based on 1 feat followed by a whole bunch of backwards scaling.

      “One feat.”

      Incorrect, there’s two feats, the continent moving in Unleashed and the planet splitting in SA3.

      Also don’t try to bring up the Space Colony Ark doing a 6-B feat as an example of an inconsistency when that was a warning shot.

        Loading editor
    • So we shouldn't use Forces for scaling because of that then, since you are implying Tails is weaker than classic, plus you yourself are saying that's not impossible, he was scared because he lost it, simple

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: And Chaos already being on that level doesn't make sense. Chaos 0 would scale to being equal to the main cast, who by your account gets destroyed by them no problem.

      Just explaining that he being stronger or weaker doesn't change the scaling

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      I agree with this, I was going to address the over the place circular scaling in more detail eventually, but this is a decent start.

      And I was going to debunk you, but we all can't have whatever we want now can we?

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999, and there's 0 proof that one Chaos Emerald spit the planet. The very plot even points to them having all 7.

        Loading editor
    • I mean I’m sure it’s unanimous that Forces is badly written.

        Loading editor
    • Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

        Loading editor
    • Anyways, I'd like to not be a part of this CRT. Do you guys think you got this?

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: @ShadowWarrior1999, and there's 0 proof that one Chaos Emerald spit the planet. The very plot even points to them having all 7.

      This was already debunked in the original 5-B thread

        Loading editor
    • The Smashor wrote: Anyways, I'd like to not be a part of this CRT. Do you guys think you got this?

      Any help is good I guess

        Loading editor
    • I also want to mention that Cal deleted this comment. Like wow lol
      Image0-22
        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: @ShadowWarrior1999, and there's 0 proof that one Chaos Emerald spit the planet. The very plot even points to them having all 7.

      The cutscene only shows one, it’s on you to provide evidence that all 7 were used.

        Loading editor
    • I'll be back to fill in my REAL input

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

      Bad writing doesn't mean it didn't happen. All of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou is bad writing. It's still Tier 0.

        Loading editor
    • Chaos 0 is a Chao mutated by the Master Emerald, but is inferior to the normal Chao Cheese, which makes no sense. Chaos 0 is also a match for both, Knuckles & Silver in Sonic Forces: Stress Test, but Knuckles could beat Chaos 2 no problem.

        Loading editor
    • Stopping by to give my usual spiel about toxicity being bad, and about how we should all make sure to not go for each other's throats. If a debate is gonna happen at all, make sure it's civil at the very least. We aren't gonna get anywhere by running around in circles and being aggressive. Not saying anybody has been, just saying that people easily can.

      Everybody, keep their heads! UwU

        Loading editor
    • @Cal

      I never said I'm okay with wisp stuff. In fact, I'm against it. By the way, thanks for reminding me to bump that thread.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Chaos 0 is a Chao boosted by the Master Emerald, but is inferior to the normal Chao Cheese. Chaos 0 is also a match for both, Knuckles & Silver in Sonic Forces: Stress Test.

      Fixed

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

      Bad writing doesn't mean it didn't happen. All of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou is bad writing. It's still Tier 0.

      Yeah, but that's not really a relevant point unless you want Classic>Tails

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999 Because looking at the plot, it says Eggman used 'The Chaos Emeralds" into the Death Egg to split the planet. Just because we only see him place one doesn't mean he never placed the other 6 off screen. Also, that's literally the plot of ever other Classic Sonic Game is Eggman gathering all 7 Chaos Emeralds so he could do that in the first place. And Sonic needing all 7 to reverse the effect is further back up; otherwise, there's no reason to not assume one Chaos Emerald could have easily reversed it if it was really caused by one. Chaos Control has always treated the reversing abilities equal to their destructive abilities.

      @VioletVoid screenshotting removed comments or unedited comments and posting them publicly isn't a good idea.

        Loading editor
    • @DDM

      We can't assume he did, either.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Chaos 0 is a Chao mutated by the Master Emerald, but is inferior to the normal Chao Cheese, which makes no sense. Chaos 0 is also a match for both, Knuckles & Silver in Sonic Forces: Stress Test, but Knuckles could beat Chaos 2 no problem.

      Cheese backscales from Chaos, not the contrary, and I literaly already debunked this on my original comment

        Loading editor
    • Theuser789 wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

      Bad writing doesn't mean it didn't happen. All of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou is bad writing. It's still Tier 0.

      Yeah, but that's not really a relevant point unless you want Classic>Tails

      The point being that Sonic Team doesn't give a darn about consistent powerscaling and they do what they please. I mean, I can't necessarily blame them, as gameplay comes first, but still.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

      Bad writing doesn't mean it didn't happen. All of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou is bad writing. It's still Tier 0.

      What I meant is that it’s PIS resulting from bad writing. Chaos in that same scene also gets bopped on the head by Classic Sonic and is instantly defeated.

        Loading editor
    • ShadowWarrior1999
      ShadowWarrior1999 removed this reply because:
      Accidental double post
      23:34, September 30, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • The real cal howard wrote:

      Theuser789 wrote:

      The real cal howard wrote:

      ShadowWarrior1999 wrote: Why are we even discussing Tails being afraid of Chaos 0 in Forces when he defeated Chaos 4? That was just bad writing.

      Bad writing doesn't mean it didn't happen. All of Ichiban Ushiro no Daimaou is bad writing. It's still Tier 0.

      Yeah, but that's not really a relevant point unless you want Classic>Tails

      The point being that Sonic Team doesn't give a darn about consistent powerscaling and they do what they please. I mean, I can't necessarily blame them, as gameplay comes first, but still.

      And why is that relevant to my point when I already explained why Chaos's power doesn't matter to the scaling?

        Loading editor
    • Can we also please stop using long quotes? Especially back and forth?

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:

      @VioletVoid screenshotting removed comments or unedited comments and posting them publicly isn't a good idea.

      So you finally going to stop dodging me?

        Loading editor
    • For once I agree with DDM.

        Loading editor
    • Shadow also kicks Shadow in the neck, who's supposedly his equal, and one-shots him. And Chaos 0 also holds his own against Sonic during when they jumped him, and Knuckles and Silver during that one side story.

        Loading editor
    • Shadow kicks a fake Shadow, unless your talking about Silver.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Shadow also kicks Shadow in the neck, who's supposedly his equal, and one-shots him. And Chaos 0 also holds his own against Sonic during when they jumped him, and Knuckles and Silver during that one side story.

      And that's not relevant at all due to reasons already explained

        Loading editor
    • @DarkDragonMedeus Show a scan proving that Eggman had all the Emeralds with him. Also the planet splitting was reversed by the Master Emerald.

      The Sonic Advance series aren’t Classic Sonic games, it’s Adventure Era.

        Loading editor
    • 🍿 🍿 🍿

        Loading editor
    • Am I missing something? I thought Chaos 4 was taken down by a team effort of Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, after Knuckles got tricked again by Eggman and thought Sonic was collecting pieces of the Master Emeralds.

      Sonic and Knuckles fought, and Sonic lost 2 of his Chaos Emeralds. Eggman quickly collected them, and Chaos 4 appeared.

      In Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles’s story line, they all fought Chaos 4. They had to have teamed up. It wouldn’t make sense otherwise that only one person fought Chaos 4 while the other two watched.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, but how many people fought Chaos 4 doesn't matter since

      1 They still would scale

      2 Knuckles beat Chaos 2 in a 1-1

      Plus Shadow giving up his emerald because he could use it's full power

      In fact that helps my argument because it makes Chaos 4 stronger than the cast debunking the Cream and Cheese are stronger than Chaos argument

        Loading editor
    • The classic games still happened in Modern Sonic's chronology. Classic Sonic is just past him from another dimension.

        Loading editor
    • Ey man, I think you got the wrong beat...

        Loading editor
    • Well...Mania is the exception.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: The classic games still happened in Modern Sonic's chronology. Classic Sonic is just past him from another dimension.

      Oh come on you know that wasn’t what I was saying.

        Loading editor
    • If I did I wouldn't have made that comment.

      That's...more on me than it is on you lol

        Loading editor
    • I agree with this.

        Loading editor
    • @ShadowWarrior1999 this scan notes that he broke the world into 7 parts using Chaos Control and scattered the 7 Chaos Emeralds after doing so. And it says all seven Chaos Emeralds are needed to restore the planet. Furthermore, it's consistent with the plot of the rest of the game that each and every Emerald was possessed by Eggman's robots; he'd have no reason to only place one in the machine when he clearly had access to the other 6.

      Furthermore, it's also consistent with literally every other Sonic game. The feat is 100% identical to the Chaos Cannon in Unleashed, which used all 7 Chaos Emeralds, and same with the plot of other Sonic games both Classic and Modern when Eggman needed all 7 to perform similar feats in the first place. There's no reason to assume the one random instance of 1 Chaos Emerald doing the same thing that was always depending on the access to all seven.

        Loading editor
    • Sonic Forces saying Sonic was being tortured for six months despite him being his usual cheery self when he's freed, along with Tails "just losing it" despite him being all fine and dandy working on Omega, were both just added to the English version to try and make the story more serious. The original Japanese version lacks either of these statements, which explains why there's a discrepancy between what we're told and what we're shown.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      @ShadowWarrior1999 this scan notes that he broke the world into 7 parts using Chaos Control and scattered the 7 Chaos Emeralds after doing so. And it says all seven Chaos Emeralds are needed to restore the planet. Furthermore, it's consistent with the plot of the rest of the game that each and every Emerald was possessed by Eggman's robots; he'd have no reason to only place one in the machine when he clearly had access to the other 6.

      Furthermore, it's also consistent with literally every other Sonic game. The feat is 100% identical to the Chaos Cannon in Unleashed, which used all 7 Chaos Emeralds, and same with the plot of other Sonic games both Classic and Modern when Eggman needed all 7 to perform similar feats in the first place. There's no reason to assume the one random instance of 1 Chaos Emerald doing the same thing that was always depending on the access to all seven.

      That scan is there to give you a general idea of the plot itself, yes Eggman used 7 Emeralds however in the cutscene which is more valid mind you we see Eggman use only one Emerald to reality warp the planet.

      You can't compare the machine Eggman used in Advance 3 to the one in Unleashed. They are made differently and are two different machines.

        Loading editor
    • Can someone summarize the argument and counter arguments please? I want to make this as painless as possible for both sides.

        Loading editor
    • Actually, DDM made an amazing point. Why would Sonic and co need all seven Emeralds to fix what a single one did? That makes no sense.

        Loading editor
    • Please? I’m a very busy person you know.

        Loading editor
    • @Sera, basically. A lot of Sonic characters including underdogs like Big the Cat and Amy Rose are currently rated at Planet level+ scaling from one random feat that one Chaos Emerald did restoring the Continent. And then we have Chaos 2 or Chaos 4 being empowered by more than one Chaos Emerald, despite the numerous feats of multiple Chaos Emeralds having consistent feats less than that; example 5 Chaos Emeralds performing a 6-B feat in Shadow the Hedgehog and 6 performing at Low 5-B feat in Sonic Adventure 2. And even Chaos 0 is 5-B due to fighting base Sonic, Base Knuckles, ect. And the other supposed back up feat is from Sonic Advanced 3. While the plot implies that the split the Earth and need all 7 to restore it, people are often assuming it was done by only one solely because we only saw one on camera.

      Basically, the ones who agree with Zamasu and Cal agree that it's an outlier for one Chaos Emerald to be Tier 5 despite the numerous feats below that done by multiple Emeralds. And then the ones against are trying to say it isn't an outlier.

      Also, I do apologize that you had to get involved, since you feel the need to avoid Sonic threads for reasons like this.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: @ShadowWarrior1999 this scan notes that he broke the world into 7 parts using Chaos Control and scattered the 7 Chaos Emeralds after doing so. And it says all seven Chaos Emeralds are needed to restore the planet. Furthermore, it's consistent with the plot of the rest of the game that each and every Emerald was possessed by Eggman's robots; he'd have no reason to only place one in the machine when he clearly had access to the other 6.

      That scan says nothing about Eggman having all 7 Chaos Emeralds, all it does is say that Sonic has to go find the 7 Emeralds. Plus it would make no sense for the Emeralds to be scattered across the world if Eggman already had all of them in his possession.

      Furthermore, it's also consistent with literally every other Sonic game. The feat is 100% identical to the Chaos Cannon in Unleashed, which used all 7 Chaos Emeralds, and same with the plot of other Sonic games both Classic and Modern when Eggman needed all 7 to perform similar feats in the first place. There's no reason to assume the one random instance of 1 Chaos Emerald doing the same thing that was always depending on the access to all seven.

      Saying “it’s consistent” with literally every other Sonic game isn’t a valid reason, at best it’s extrapolation. You still have to providence actual evidence from the game to support the notion that the feat was done by all 7 Emeralds when the default assumption is that it was only done by one as that was all that was shown. Also Eggman doesn’t need all 7 Emeralds to perform planet busting feats, he wants all 7 Emeralds because they are they key to obtaining ultimate power so he can rule over everyone.

        Loading editor
    • My stance is that the cast is currently scaling to Chaos 4, and all of the cast at that, and Hereford the power of Chaos + 4 Chaos Emeralds, from Sonic to Big to Cream to Cheese. Which makes Chaos 0 completely fodder despite his appearance in Battle and Forces proving otherwise. Furthermore, DDM brought up the point that scaling to the SA3 feat due to Eggman using one emerald to break the planet shouldn’t be the case given that it wouldn’t require all 7 to fix the mistakes of one emerald.

        Loading editor
    • Neutral for now.

        Loading editor
    • Also, I agree with what everyone has stated here so far. Chaos 0 has literally been defeated by Sonic NUMEROUS times: >Sonic Adventure >Sonic Battle >Sonic Generations >Sonic Forces

      In all of these games? Chaos 0 has been fodderized. Sonic beats him on numerous occasions in SA1, bodies Perfect Chaos in Gens, and Chaos 0 loses to Classic Sonic and the rest of the characters even fought an army of Chaos 0's.

      I could level up my Pokemon team to lvl 100 and stomp the game but doesn't mean that Red no-diff'd Blue. With Forces, no, it's not just Tails suffering from PTSD. One, that's your own interpretation and purely headcanon. Two, Chaos 0 was capable of hurting Sonic as well as the others, and is treated on par with Zavok, Shadow, Metal Sonic, and Infinite. If you're saying that Chaos 0 was no-diff'd by the cast then you're saying Shadow and Metal Sonic get no-diff'd by the cast. There's undeniable inconsistencies here.

      That's another false equivalency. Tails suffering from PTSD is simply bad writing, when Tails has shown to be a completely capable fighter in the past games. Chaos 0 was defeated by Classic Sonic, Cal. He's not on par with Infinite at all.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote: Furthermore, DDM brought up the point that scaling to the SA3 feat due to Eggman using one emerald to break the planet shouldn’t be the case given that it wouldn’t require all 7 to fix the mistakes of one emerald.

      Even if that was the case, that’d be like saying a bomb can’t destroy a city because it can’t also be used to fix one.

      The planet split as I mentioned was also undone by the Master Emerald, not all 7 Chaos Emeralds.

        Loading editor
    • SA3 or Unleashed?


      If it’s the former, the plot of the games was to collect all 7 to undo that. You do collect the Emeralds there.

      Heck, if it was the Master Emerald that reverted it, that would be even worse, given the ME is > the CE.

        Loading editor
    • @Godhand. Defeat=/=Stomp. Link has consistently defeated Ganon and Kirby has consistently defeated Zero. You’d be remiss to say that they stomped them though.

        Loading editor
    • SA3. In the stage Altar Emerald, the Master Emerald is what restores the planet.

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:
      @Godhand. Defeat=/=Stomp. Link has consistently defeated Ganon and Kirby has consistently defeated Zero. You’d be remiss to say that they stomped them though.

      No, once again those are false comparsions. Ganon can give Link an actual fight, so can Zero to Kirby.  ​​​​Sonic literally has mooped the floor with Chaos 0 several times throughout the games. 

        Loading editor
    • Also, yeah. The manual doesn't even state that Eggman used 7 emeralds to split the planet apart. Reading it a second time? I saw no mention of that. 

        Loading editor
    • The Chaos Emeralds are not consistent due to their very nature. It wasn’t that long ago when we discussed this. The power of the emeralds is variant on the user, so we should always go by feats.

      Chaos 0 has been beaten by Sonic multiple times.

      Eggman uses the emeralds for planet level feats because he wants to dominate the planet. The emeralds have been shown to have stellar and even universal feats depending on the wielder’s intentions.

      Tails (as well as many other Sonic characters) are being immensely flanderized in current writing, and has been since Sonic Colors. Heck, I can argue that Sonic and the Black Knight was the last Sonic game that had the characters have some actual depth. Even 06 has great character writing moments like Shadow’s arc. Tails is not some wimpy crybaby dependent on Sonic, but he’s been made that way in recent games. They gave him an inferiority complex out of nowhere.

      There’s more but I really don’t feel like discussing this.

        Loading editor
    • Chaos 0 was actually considered challenge to the cast in Sonic Battle and Sonic Forces, Chaos 0 also overpowered Knuckles early on in Sonic Adventure. Also, the Chaos Emeralds do have feats beyond planetary, but only when all 7 of them are together. But one Chaos Emerald is usually pretty featless.

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: The Chaos Emeralds are not consistent due to their very nature. It wasn’t that long ago when we discussed this. The power of the emeralds is variant on the user, so we should always go by feats.

      Well this hits harder than I thought.

        Loading editor
    • So that begs the question, Sera. What should they be scaled to?

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Chaos 0 was actually considered challenge to the cast in Sonic Battle and Sonic Forces, Chaos 0 also overpowered Knuckles early on in Sonic Adventure.

      Choas 0 was seen once in Sonic Battle and that's when he fought Emerl. Like I said before, Classic Sonic defeated Chaos 0 and the rest of the cast fought an army of them in the game.

      Right, but Knuckles went on to fight a stronger version of him later on in his story.

        Loading editor
    • The Chaos Energy Canon was used to send a blast of concentrated Chaos Energy to awaken Dark Gaia, thus the machine is required to absorb more power. The machine Eggman uses in Advance 3 isn't specified but it obviously functions differently because one chaos emerald is all that's needed to reality warp the entire planet.

      Regardless it doesn't matter because...

      The Emeralds each have an infinite amount of power, one is not stronger than the other. That's why the feats vary when characters use the Chaos Emeralds. So, no none of this is "inconsistent" but actually very consistent across the game's story. 

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:

      So that begs the question, Sera. What should they be scaled to?

      They should scale to the most consistent non-amped feat they have. They certainly all aren’t the same tier. Amy is not on Sonic’s level.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, Sonic defeating enemies empowered by all 7 Chaos Emeralds is PIS; and/or the equivalent of a bee stinging an elephant in the eye. He defeated a weakened Ifrit, who has his High 6-A feat at his prime. And stuff like Eggrobo have High 6-A regular feats and one 5-B statement. But being empowered by something doesn't mean you have all of it absorbed; being empowered by the Sun doesn't make you 4-C. And none of the Black Hole stuff are legit and oneshot everyone even if they were. And Adventure Sonic is above Classic Sonic for sure; who has his Low 6-B feat. And honestly, High 6-A is the most generous thing to scale to the base form characters outside of obvious PIS and Outliers.

      @Godhand1999, Also, "Infinite Power" is an obvious hyperbole/NLF that's constantly disproven in every single game. That also makes it sound like the 5-A feat was done by really stressing the Chaos Emeralds, as they basically became lifeless rocks after empowering the Chaos Cannon.

        Loading editor
    • Zamasu Chan
      Zamasu Chan removed this reply because:
      Mistake
      01:11, October 1, 2019
      This reply has been removed
    • Sera EX wrote: The Chaos Emeralds are not consistent due to their very nature. It wasn’t that long ago when we discussed this. The power of the emeralds is variant on the user, so we should always go by feats.

      I’m gonna elaborate here. Since the Emeralds vary individually as well, that’ll explain why more than one perform 6-B and low 5-B feats and why one has a 5-B+ feat and a low 2-C feat. Simply because they vary. However just because an Emerald has a 5-B+ feat doesn’t mean we should scale the base cast to it. It’s the same reason why a lot of Super Forms are just 5-A or 4-A and not all 2-C. Point is, we need feats and if it varies we always go for the low end.

      Make of that as you well and don’t @ me. I’m trying not to get too involved so lea me lone

        Loading editor
    • I never said scale the base cast to even a single emerald.

        Loading editor
    • No that’s not what I’m saying, they’re still gonna be 5-B but since the Emeralds vary and their lowest showing was 6-B then that’s the low end for Emeralds not base characters.

        Loading editor
    • It wasn't at you, it was GodHand, ShadowWarror, TheUser, Smashor, Oblivion Lighting, and Violet Void who all say every single non-amped character should be performed by the best feat done by one Chaos Emerald.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: It wasn't at you, it was GodHand, ShadowWarror, TheUser, Smashor, Oblivion Lighting, and Violet Void who all say every single non-amped character should be performed by the best feat done by one Chaos Emerald.

      Actually I didn't say anything yet.

        Loading editor
    • You have on other threads.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: You have on other threads.

      Chill bro, let’s not do this.

        Loading editor
    • But not like this. Now step back as a REAL Sonic fans does it when explaining the Emeralds' power.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      Yeah, Sonic defeating enemies empowered by all 7 Chaos Emeralds is PIS; and/or the equivalent of a bee stinging an elephant in the eye. He defeated a weakened Ifrit, who has his High 6-A feat at his prime. And stuff like Eggrobo have High 6-A regular feats and one 5-B statement. But being empowered by something doesn't mean you have all of it absorbed; being empowered by the Sun doesn't make you 4-C. And none of the Black Hole stuff are legit and oneshot everyone even if they were. And Adventure Sonic is above Classic Sonic for sure; who has his Low 6-B feat. And honestly, High 6-A is the most generous thing to scale to the base form characters outside of obvious PIS and Outliers.

      @Godhand1999, Also, "Infinite Power" is an obvious hyperbole/NLF that's constantly disproven in every single game. That also makes it sound like the 5-A feat was done by really stressing the Chaos Emeralds, as they basically became lifeless rocks after empowering the Chaos Cannon.

      So, DDM let me cut you short right? 1. Ifrit was never weakened in Sonic Rivals 2. That was never stated in the game whatsoever.

      2.The Eggrobo was literally created from and composed of energy harnessed from the entire planet's biosphere, which was stated to be capable of blowing up the whole planet without leaving a trace.

      3.The Chaos Emeralds literally have been stated numerous times throughout the entire series to have an unlimited supply of energy. It is not a NLF at all DDM it's how the character's power vary when they use the Emeralds power. No, they weren't "lifeless rocks" after powering up the Chaos Cannon. They were just rendered inert and not useable at the time. The Emeralds are powered by one's thoughts, emotions, and aptitude. THAT is what powers the Emeralds, why we have a variable tier, and why their power varies between each game.

        Loading editor
    • The Biosphere/Geothermal energy =/= Gravitational Binding Energy. Geothermal energy is still only High 6-A. And that's just what's stored in the extractor, not how much Eggrobo can harness in every punch. And actually, Ifrit was stated to have gotten weaker based on what Weekly Battles mentioned on another thread. Also, I'm well aware of the variable tiers via being hearts of the users, but the Chaos Emeralds themselves do have limits; they're not Tier 0 like what's literally being implied by the word "Limitless". And even that, that would only qualify for Infinite stamina, but High 3-A individually. And they were depleted of all their power in Unleashed.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: The Biosphere/Geothermal energy =/= Gravitational Binding Energy. Geothermal energy is still only High 6-A. And that's just what's stored in the extractor, not how much Eggrobo can harness in every punch. And actually, Ifrit was stated to have gotten weaker. Also, I'm well aware of the variable tiers via being hearts of the users, but the Chaos Emeralds themselves do have limits; they're not Tier 0 like what's literally being implied by the word "Limitless". And even that, that would only qualify for Infinite stamina, but High 3-A individually. And they were depleted of all their power in Unleashed.

      I need a scan for that

        Loading editor
    • ^I’ve seen nothing bout that at all.

      It honestly sounds like headcanon.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:
      The Biosphere/Geothermal energy =/= Gravitational Binding Energy. Geothermal energy is still only High 6-A. And that's just what's stored in the extractor, not how much Eggrobo can harness in every punch. And actually, Ifrit was stated to have gotten weaker based on what Weekly Battles mentioned on another thread. Also, I'm well aware of the variable tiers via being hearts of the users, but the Chaos Emeralds themselves do have limits; they're not Tier 0 like what's literally being implied by the word "Limitless". And even that, that would only qualify for Infinite stamina, but High 3-A individually. And they were depleted of all their power in Unleashed.

      Despite being stated that the Eggrobo had enough power to destroy the planet. It doesn't function like a battery, by the time Sonic fought the machine it was already powered by the energy it sucked from the planet. I have no idea what Weekly Battles mentioned on another thread, but I've played Sonic Rivals 2 recently and nowhere in the plot does it say he's weakened. The Chaos Emerald's have an unlimited supply of power, however from what we have seen so far via feats? Yes, they are at Tier 2 nothing higher. So, nobody is putting them at Tier 0 or Tier 1, based on the feats we have so far from the Emeralds is that they are Tier 2. The Emeralds power depends on a variety on other factors, they don't work on a fixed scale.

        Loading editor
    • It's not wise to strawman what I'm saying BTW

        Loading editor
    • Ok after reading all of this, DDM and co. are almost on the money when it comes to the Emeralds' power. Sure they're "inconsistent", but not really. It's a "Yes, but actually no" type of deal. I'll explain. inhales deep

      The Chaos Emeralds house infinite power. It's been stated in SA1, Sonic Battle, Shadow the Hedgehog, and many other games before and after it. The Emeralds can really be just as powerful as they want (as they were created by unknown Gods based on some Classic Era scans), but can be as weak as they want. Why? Because it depends on the user who wields them!

      "The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the chaos." -Tikal

      Tikal states that power is enriched by the heart. The heart is mostly a metaphor defining feelings and emotions. And the user who has the most positive emotions, or in this aptitude, has more control or power with the Emeralds. Hence why Blaze stated that the Emerald's can turn your thoughts into power. Which explains why Super Sonic has beaten Perfect Chaos in SA1. Or in Sonic Rush, Blaze lacked the positive emotions to bring back the warm and glowing energy of the Sol Emeralds until Sonic and co. help bring back the glow from the Emeralds. They were like ordinary stones, but became normal because of the "Power of Friendship", literally (which we all know are just parallel versions of the Emeralds so this analogy makes sense).

      So we got the whole positive emotions part out of the way, but what about aptitude and variable AP? It's because with that aptitude the Emeralds HAVE a variable tier in power. It's why the Emeralds can destroy planets in one game, pierce stars in the next, a freakin' city, an entire universe and multiverse, then back to planet level just like that. It's because various characters, when using the emeralds, responds differently. Here are some examples:

      >Shadow almost dying from using them in his Super Form after his sudden change into the good side

      >Chaos going malevolent in his Perfect Chaos form where he destroyed the Echidna Tribe and almost wiped out an entire city

      >Ix getting one shot by Super Sonic even though both use the same source of power

      >Emerl going haywire and died mostly after absorbing all those Chaos Emeralds

      >Tails going super with the Super Emeralds, but not with the Chaos Emeralds unlike Sonic and Knuckles And that's all I got for now as far as examples go.

      So DDM, Cal, and anyone else who's in this downgrade, this is why the Emeralds have been showing different forms of AP in different games. It's not because of inconsistency, it's because of the aptitude of the ones wielding the emeralds. Or machines who are specialized to use a set variable because science.

      Here are more sources that you need to look at:

      https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Emerald

      https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Master_Emerald

      https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Control

      https://sonic.fandom.com/wiki/Tikal

        Loading editor
    • I was going to send this to you @DarkDragonMedeus on Discord, but I couldn't.

        Loading editor
    • Excellent reply above^^^

        Loading editor
    • I....kinda already said that but okay lol. Scans are always fine.

        Loading editor
    • But mine was handled better. No offense.

        Loading editor
    • That kind of also proves the problems with making every single non amplified character Tier 5. The Tier 5 feat done by one Emerald was done with Sonic's good heart in mind. Same with Sonic Advanced 3; they needed all 7 to undo another Tier 5 feat; which one again the good guys need all that. When a bad guy did the Tier 5 destruction feat. Sonic and the others have no reason to gather all 7 if all it took was one planet used by an evil person like what's being assumed. It's also consistent that the positive energy feats are usually well above the negative energy ones.

        Loading editor
    • So the fact that it was the Master Emerald, not all 7 Emeralds that reversed the split is going to be ignored? Okay then.

      A bomb can’t undo a city being destroyed, I guess that means a bomb can’t destroy a city.

        Loading editor
    • Uhh DDM? The Master Emerald was the one that undid all of it. It's specifically designed to counter the Emeralds' powers. And most of the examples I used happened with all 7 Emeralds being used on those guys. Not one.

        Loading editor
    • Pre-fully healed Shadow's aptitude via his own statements about using the Chaos Emeralds "true power" to help him in fights in Sonic Battle allow conclusive power scaling multiple characters to a singular Chaos Emerald's best shown output feat in the first place with the said feat being tier 5. Even if you could say mecha laser cannons aren't as equal in aptitude as Shadow during Sonic Battle due to the one in Unleashed or some such. Multiple Emeralds having varying levels of AP is covered pretty nicely by VV100.


      The Sonic Unleashed feat using 1 Emerald was also replicated more or less going by the volume and velocity of the said continents that got slammed back into place 6 other times. 

        Loading editor
    • ^Real MVP for acknowledging my greatness

        Loading editor
    • VioletVoid100 wrote:

      But mine was handled better. No offense.

      I acknowledged that though! XD

        Loading editor
    • @Sera EX

      K. Whatever.

        Loading editor
    • Honestly, story inconsistencies shouldn’t matter unless they’re really contradictory for our purposes, so “Sonic and the others have no reason to gather all 7 if all it took was one planet used by an evil person like what's being assumed.” doesn’t really work as an argument. It’s like the whole “Galactus can’t be stronger than planet level because his power source is planet energy”.

        Loading editor
    • Granted, there are such inconsistencies. This is Sonic we’re talking about.

        Loading editor
    • There's still 0 proof that all it took was only one Chaos Emerald to cause the Earth to separate in Sonic Advanced 3. The only argument was just the whole, "We only saw one in the cut scene meaning he must not have the other 6 at all." That's the same thing as saying we don't see the rest of Eggman's body when he could have placed the other 6 in the other 6 identical slots off camera. It's never outright stated one way or the other, but the fact that Eggman was in possession of all seven Chaos Emeralds from the very beginning of the game and the plot was him separating the the Emeralds to Sonic and his friends can't find them makes him using all seven the Occam's Razor.

        Loading editor
    • Why is the feat of a single emerald relevant here again?

        Loading editor
    • @Sera EX

      Idk

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: There's still 0 proof that all it took was only one Chaos Emerald to cause the Earth to separate in Sonic Advanced 3. The only argument was just the whole, "We only saw one in the cut scene meaning he must not have the other 6 at all." That's the same thing as saying we don't see the rest of Eggman's body when he could have placed the other 6 in the other 6 identical slots off camera. It's never outright stated one way or the other, but the fact that Eggman was in possession of all seven Chaos Emeralds from the very beginning of the game and the plot was him separating the the Emeralds to Sonic and his friends can't find them makes him using all seven the Occam's Razor.

      Eat it good

        Loading editor
    • Because between this feat and this feat that 5-B+ is the baseline for a single Chaos Emerald. And that every single character, including Big the Cat and Amy Rose scale from it because they fought Chaos 4. That's how the ratings currently are which the purpose of the thread is saying that's not really consistent to make everyone that high. And as said above, it's extremely debatable whether or not the second feat was actually performed by a single Emerald.

        Loading editor
    • Plus it glowed green and if all 7 was used, then they would have no probably showing the other 6. Just saying.

        Loading editor
    • Pause on 1:38 it clearly says "The Chaos Emeralds" if he only used one, it would have simply said "A Chaos Emerald".

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: There's still 0 proof that all it took was only one Chaos Emerald to cause the Earth to separate in Sonic Advanced 3. The only argument was just the whole, "We only saw one in the cut scene meaning he must not have the other 6 at all." That's the same thing as saying we don't see the rest of Eggman's body when he could have placed the other 6 in the other 6 identical slots off camera. It's never outright stated one way or the other, but the fact that Eggman was in possession of all seven Chaos Emeralds from the very beginning of the game and the plot was him separating the the Emeralds to Sonic and his friends can't find them makes him using all seven the Occam's Razor.

      “There’s still 0 proof that all it took was only one Chaos Emerald.”

      No, it’s up to you to prove it’s all 7 because you’re saying something that isn’t shown in the actual cutscene is present in it.

      “He could have placed the other 6 in the other 6 identical slots off camera.”

      This is headcanon. Next.

      “the fact that Eggman was in possession of all seven Chaos Emeralds from the very beginning of the game and the plot was him separating the the Emeralds to Sonic and his friends can't find them makes him using all seven the Occam's Razor.”

      Also never stated he had all of them in his possession. If the other 6 Emeralds were anywhere on the surface they’d still be separated by the planet splitting so that is irrelevant.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Pause on 1:38 it clearly says "The Chaos Emeralds" if he only used one, it would have simply said "A Chaos Emerald".

        Loading editor
    • DDM, it stated Eggman was going to use the Emeralds to build Eggmanland. Not to break the planet apart.

        Loading editor
    • @DarkDragonMedeus

      Why do you keep repeating this ad-nauseam? Dude, the cutscene literally shows you that one Chaos Emerald was all that was needed to reality warp the planet in Sonic Advance 3. If it was all 7 Emeralds? Then the cutscene would've showed Eggman using the other 6 emeralds, but we are shown that he's used one of them. The manual you linked as well doesn't even support you're point because it doesn't even state that Eggman used 7 emeralds to use Chaos Control.

      Stop this lol. Base Sonic Characters are Tier 5

        Loading editor
    • And it said he "planning" as in he's planning to get the other Emeralds to succeed

        Loading editor
    • @Medeus

      Okay. We’ll talk later since I’m going offline for awhile.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Pause on 1:38 it clearly says "The Chaos Emeralds" if he only used one, it would have simply said "A Chaos Emerald".

      This is a non-sequitur argument. It says Eggman is planning to use the Chaos Emeralds to build Eggmanland, not that he’s obtained all of them yet. Splitting the planet was part of the goal, but it doesn’t complete it.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, and would he need all 7 if the feat allegedly only required one? Again, the cut-scene was rushed, unfinished, and doesn't really hold a lot of weight. The rest of the whole plot of the game clearly indicates that Eggman was in possession of all 7. Each and every boss was also in possession of a Chaos Emerald and was a robot built by Eggman. If one of Eggman's robots was holding an Emerald, that counts as Eggman being in possession of it. So we have countless indicators of using all 7 versus only one and that one is awfully too vague. It's headcanon to assume he didn't have the other 6 either. Consistency is a better reason for Occam's Razor then simply hiding an outlier.

      @Sera, alright, rest up well.

        Loading editor
    • Sorry, but if a cutscene only shows one Chaos Emerald? The greater assumption is to assume he had all seven rather than fewer.

      Also you'll have to show clips of "every boss" having a Chaos Emerald. Which still wouldn't prove that he used all seven Chaos Emeralds in that moment either. Don't accuse us of spewing headcanons when that's what many of your arguments rely on. Like Dark Gaia "holding back" split pieces of the planet in Unleashed, or similar things that have been stated in an attempt to disprove an upgrade.

      I mean no offense by any of this btw, so don't take it too harshly.

        Loading editor
    • Really DDM, you’re going to blame the cutscene for being rushed and unfinished? That’s just silly, the cutscene is there to show the context of why the planet got split into pieces, which was Eggman using Chaos Control, and it does the job just fine.

      Also Eggman robots on the ground having possession of a Chaos Emerald still wouldn’t prove Eggman had them with him on the space station.

      You don’t use “consistency” as a reason for Occam’s Razor. You look at the actual evidence in the game, not unrelated events from other games.

        Loading editor
    • The greater assumption is to assume the one chaos emerald we see on screen is the only Chaos Emerald in his possession. You have to prove that Eggman stated he only had one, or where the other 6 were when he activated it. Because, part of Occam's Razor means you have to consider the consistency of both the rest of the series and the rest of the game. Also wow, the one time I use the word Headcanon, people call me out for it when everyone else has used the word at every single statement that disagrees with them. I never said Dark Gaia holds back, I simply said Inverse Square law of a bee fighting an elephant and Gaia Colossus also being the one that's doing all the muscle work. And that Sonic simply pokes Gaia in the eyes.

      @Shadow, yes, you do consider consistency and evidence from other works. It's still better than 0 evidence at all. Either Chaos Emerald splitting the planet is an outlier, or it required all 7. Assuming the 5-A feat was performed by one Chaos Emerald is called fan service.

      I also know full well what you guys all say behind my back offsite. So I think twice before pointing the fingers at me. And it's not just me, the other stuff being said behind other staff members behind their backs are even worse.

        Loading editor
    • @DDM You have the SA3 planet splitting and the moving continents in Unleashed that was calced at 5-B. One Emerald being tier 5 is not an outlier. Also the SA3 feat is rated as 5-B since it happened off-screen and there’s no calc for it.

      And “fan service?” That’s not a mature thing to say because someone doesn’t agree with you. The evidence shows that there’s only one Emerald that Eggman used to split the planet, you have to prove otherwise.

      BTW Shake was referring when you tried to dismiss the Chaos Emeralds moving continents as just Dark Gaia holding them up and the Emeralds nulled him, not about scaling Base Sonic to Dark Gaia.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:

      I also know full well what you guys all say behind my back offsite. So I think twice before pointing the fingers at me. And it's not just me, the other stuff being said behind other staff members behind their backs are even worse.

      Maybe if you were nicer, debate without headcanons, and overall a better person (both on and offsite), then we all wouldn't hate you as a collective group. Take Cal for instance. He's bias against Sonic too, hell he admitted it, and yet he still respects us and actually debates. He was kinda our friend for a pretty substantial amount of time. You? You lack respect and try to argue with your game theorist logic and appeal to authority in like every. single. thread. There's a reason why we think you're distasteful and annoying as hell to deal with. Like legitimate reasons. No headcanons or anything else stupid.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not talking about the Continent lifting part, that part is indeed 5-B, but it shouldn't scale to anyone is the problem. The Chaos Cannon splitting the Planet into 7 pieces very similarly to what happened in SA3, was the 5-A calculation. And Naruto Forum accepted it as a second 5-A feat, but considered it being done by 7 Chaos Emeralds.

      It's not about disagreeing with me, it's about what's legitimate accuracy. There's 0 evidence that the one we see on screen is the only Emerald and is the same thing as saying we don't see anything beyond Eggman's head and hand on screen so he doesn't have any legs.

      @VioletVoid, and I'm not biased against Sonic at all or any verse for that matter. I do my job as an Admin, and I've actually been very friendly to a lot of people. But when people legit attack me first and I have every right to be defensive. I really don't need to remind you about that final warning Antvasima gave you.

        Loading editor
    • If Eggman had started the game with all 7 Chaos Emeralds, he'd have alrealdy been fully capable of reaching his endgame. He wouldn't just split the planet in half and then spread the Emeralds around for Sonic and the others to collect while simultaneously trying to build Eggmanland. He'd already be able to build Eggmanland from the start. It's quite clear he split the Earth to cause Chaos so he could then collect the Emeralds and achieve his ultimate goal. If Eggman had all Emeralds from the start, he'd have been way more powerful and capable than he actually was, the idea he had all Emeralds at his posession is pure conjecture. You talk about consistency, DDM, but what you're suggesting is happening in the plot makes zero sense. The Keys that you need to reach the Special Stage aren't even in Eggman's possession.

        Loading editor
    • Sometimes his powerful weapons also cause the Emeralds to scatter naturally. And if he kept the Emeralds united, he then Sonic would just need to get to his base and take all of them. Eggman was trying to separate the Emeralds so that the 7 Chaos Emeralds won't be their to restore the planet. SA3 has literally the same plot as Sonic Unleashed about splitting the planet and trying to prevent them from building together.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote:

      @VioletVoid, and I'm not biased against Sonic at all or any verse for that matter. I do my job as an Admin, and I've actually been very friendly to a lot of people. But people legit attack me first and I have every right to be defensive. I really don't need to remind you about that final warning Antvasima gave you.

      You know actions speak louder than words right? Based on your actions, you've been heavily involved in trying to downgrade and downplay the verse by any means necessary. Tier 4 Chaos Emeralds, Maginaryworld, Tier 5 Sonic part 1, and now part 2. And even more coming up soon. And sure, you may be friendly (whenever you want to be), but towards Sonic fans? ...Let's just say I'll let that one slide before I get banned for telling the truth. And attacked? Misuse of the definition. You don't look like the kind of guy/girl/it to be attacked. You seem strong headed.

      Why even bring up the final warning like it's my kryptonite? I'm fully aware of the final warning. I just don't care because...I just don't. I'm a very chilled dude and everyone else with a blue colored name knows that. Which is why they defended me, and several other Sonic fans, on not getting banned for a year which was a plot to get rid of us so Sonic's verse won't be as protected as it is now by us.

        Loading editor
    • In the words of Shake, let's be kind to one another.

        Loading editor
    • At no point is such a scenario stated or even indicated whatsoever, kindly stop making up nonsensical plot points just to make your flimsy narrative work. If Eggman had all the Emeralds in him, he'd actually use them against Sonic as he's been shown to do in multiple occasions.

        Loading editor
    • @DDM The Chaos Energy Cannon didn’t split the planet though, it was Dark Gaia who split it. The beam was just to awaken it. It’s also a different weapon from the one Eggman used in SA3. Yeah, they both split the planet into 7 pieces but we don’t know if the pieces were arranged the same way and how quickly it happened in SA3, which is why it’s considered 5-B.

      Yeah, legitimate accuracy which is what I want, which is why I’m saying the feat was done by one Emerald. Also that Eggman analogy is not a good one, we’ve already seen that Eggman has legs, but we don’t see any other Chaos Emeralds besides that one onboard Eggman’s space station.

        Loading editor
    • Trust me, the life of an Admin/staff member is much harder than the life of a regular user. Second, downplay is a strong word. And I not once called any of you guys "Wankers", sure someone else has called you something worse than that, and not going to say his name, but I don't do that. Also, MaginaryWorld's downgrade was universally justified as Low 2-C. People shout us as staff members, use our names to upload porn, and even give us death threats all the time. And call us a whole bunch of bigoted slur words.

      Yes, Dark Gaia absorbed the Chaos Cannon and was empowered by it which was then when he split the planet apart. Also, "Every opportunity", strong word. I defended Low 2-C Darkspine Sonic when someone tried to downgrade him. And Weekly once tried to downgrade base Sonic to below High 6-A, which I argued against. And some people tried to argue that Sonic wasn't FTL which I argued against. I'm also okay with Super Sonic having his 2-C high end, which a couple other Admins want to get rid of even that high end; I don't agree with that part either.

      It's also, once again never stated or proven that the one Chaos Emerald we see in the cut-scene is the only one. And anyone who's actually played the whole game knows that the plot is indeed legit. Eggman split the planet so he could build his Empire, which is consistent with the intro saying he's using the Chaos Emeralds to build his empire.

        Loading editor
    • Can we not make this staff vs regular users? That's the territory this thread appears to be heading in DDM

        Loading editor
    • I was trying to avoid making that. But it was instigated by one of them first and was being on the defensive. Anyway, I needed to make the clarifications, so once again, I apologize for any misunderstandings.

      Anyway, I agree with that and any future comments that says "Color names" and such I will remove.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: It's also, once again never stated or proven that the one Chaos Emerald we see in the cut-scene is the only one. And anyone who's actually played the whole game knows that the plot is indeed legit. Eggman split the planet so he could build his Empire, which is consistent with the intro saying he's using the Chaos Emeralds to build his empire.

      That’s asking to prove a negative. You are making the claim that Eggman had all 7 Emeralds with him, the burden is on you to prove it and you haven’t given sufficient evidence that it should be accepted that Eggman used all 7 Emeralds to split the planet. Eggman split the planet as part of his goal in building Eggmanland, yes he wants the Emeralds but that doesn’t mean he had all of them at the time.

        Loading editor
    • @Shadow, a negative would be something to support a downgrade, and positive is something to prove an upgrade. That's why they're called negatives and positives. There's still no reason to assume that he only has one when the rest of the entire game points to him using all 7. Also, Wikipedia is another source that implies he's experimenting using the Chaos Emeralds. And this source also makes it plural. I'll look into the rest of the game and/or manual if that has an online source.

      I know wikis are limited, but some of the other counter intuitive comments have also used other wikis. There's also the fact that it still says, "Chaos Emeralds" and the plot mentions the scattering of the Chaos Emeralds being the cause of the planet's separation.

      Also, one of the arguments was counter intuitive. Someone said all the Emeralds are equal in power, then one would one suddenly be implied to be above the other 6 combined? It's just Space-Time manipulation on the planet; it can be reversed with an equally potent space-time warping device. There's not reason for all 7 to be needed to undo if it was all caused by one. And if it was the Master Emerald that reverted it, Cal said that further discredits the power of a single Chaos Emerald.

        Loading editor
    • That's not how it works in the slightest

        Loading editor
    • DDM, please, that's absurd.

        Loading editor
    • Did DDM just use the wikipedia page for Sonic Advance 3's plot to prove one of his points?

      That is a certified Bruh Moment. 

        Loading editor
    • I’m still waiting for that scan that stated Ifrit was weakened.

        Loading editor
    • If I may interject,The Genesis Waves in Archie are more or less based off the opening to Advance 3.Since Sega/Sonic Team heavily mandated & overlooked the late run of the comics they would definitely have to approve in a footnote that the event would only require a single emerald(they do). We can even the SA3 opening at a different angle & there's clearly only one in that control room.

      GW1
      GW2
        Loading editor
    • why are you guys talking about Forces in this? The most consistent thing in Forces is that the strength of characters in it are inconsistent

        Loading editor
    • Why are we even arguing against the SA3 feat when this thread was about the characters scaling to a emerald? And the same arguments against it have already been debunked so this feels pointless right now

        Loading editor
    • First it went to downgrading the cast to 5-B baseline and it kinda shifted to the legitimacy of 5-B in general.

        Loading editor
    • Why are we even still talking about Advanced 3? We repeatedly said that the Emeralds vary so all this circling is redundant and pointless. This also isn’t crucial to 5-B Sonic just the level of 5-B.

        Loading editor
    • Cal and DDM: Exist

      The Sonic Squad:

        Loading editor
    • The real cal howard wrote:
      "In the words of Shake, let's be kind to one another".

      This statement sums up every single Sonic thread with 100 or more posts in the last 6 moths.

      Ok, I'm not really the type of guy that likes to criticize other user's behaviour, but this is getting to be a problem. By being hostile to one another, we're never going to reach a damn agreement.

        Loading editor
    • This is why I hate Sonic CRTs and don't like responding to these things. I'm only here because Cal asked me to. All I see is petty attempts at one upmanship. Sure, some of DDM's arguments aren't the best, but that doesn't mean he should be clowned as if he's mentally incompetent. It's not about "destroying people" in an argument just to stroke your own ego. It's about providing the most evidence as possible and making a convincing argument. Not this "DDM and Cal just hate Tier 5 Sonic so they should just shut up" crap I'm seeing. That's not how we do things here and I won't tolerate it continuing.

        Loading editor
    • Tbh the negativity in Sonic threads get repetitive.

      I disagree for reasons that were stated above, which have yet to be debunked thoroughly with substantiated evidence. It's as easy as that, everybody.

        Loading editor
    • DarkDragonMedeus wrote: Trust me, the life of an Admin/staff member is much harder than the life of a regular user. Second, downplay is a strong word. And I not once called any of you guys "Wankers", sure someone else has called you something worse than that, and not going to say his name, but I don't do that. Also, MaginaryWorld's downgrade was universally justified as Low 2-C. People shout us as staff members, use our names to upload porn, and even give us death threats all the time. And call us a whole bunch of bigoted slur words.

      Idc how hard a staff member's life is. That's not an excuse for your behavior on this site. Downplay is a strong word, but it's the right word to describe your nature to Sonic as a strong verse. You do kinda insult me at times and even on your own time when I'm not around, but yeah Matt is worse. "Universally justified" You just kinda exposed your close-mindedness by saying that. VSBW isn't the entirety of vs debating you know. Again, idc what you go through. People in here have gone through worse or similar stuff. So please stop.

        Loading editor
    • "Sure, some of DDM's arguments aren't the best, but that doesn't mean he should be clowned as if he's mentally incompetent."

      ...Uh...Ok...

        Loading editor
    • Good grief.

        Loading editor
    • ShakeResounding wrote: Tbh the negativity in Sonic threads get repetitive.

      I disagree for reasons that were stated above, which have yet to be debunked thoroughly with substantiated evidence. It's as easy as that, everybody.

      This is pretty much my opinion, so far the arguments against haven't been debunked and all I ser is a long circular argument about SA3 that has nothing to do with the actual thread, and my arguments brought on my first post haven't been debunked

        Loading editor
    • Sera EX wrote: This is why I hate Sonic CRTs and don't like responding to these things. I'm only here because Cal asked me to. All I see is petty attempts at one upmanship. Sure, some of DDM's arguments aren't the best, but that doesn't mean he should be clowned as if he's mentally incompetent. It's not about "destroying people" in an argument just to stroke your own ego. It's about providing the most evidence as possible and making a convincing argument. Not this "DDM and Cal just hate Tier 5 Sonic so they should just shut up" crap I'm seeing. That's not how we do things here and I won't tolerate it continuing.

      Strongly agreed.

      Also, Medeus is correct about that the staff have had to endure an awful lot of abuse just for trying to do our jobs of keeping the wiki reasonably stable and reliable and evaluating content revision threads to the best of our abilities. However, we cannot be expected to be perfect at all times.

        Loading editor
    • Ant joins the battle!

      Jkjk

        Loading editor
    • To stop the non stop aneurysm caused by a blue fictional hedgehog we should just focus on addressing one thing at at time because I noticed that these back and forth argument creates sub arguments which lead to an entirely different argument.The opposition and support should focus on one topic at a time even breaking things up within this CRT.

        Loading editor
    • Derailment. We aren't expecting staff to be perfect, nor has anybody expected it. I'm just trying to keep things civil here, but I'll reiterate what I've said to stay focused here.

      Everything in the OP has been debunked, and no meaningful counter-claims have been made to fight against the Anti-downgrade side. It's even been derailed as to the validity of 5-B as a whole, which had nothing to ddo with this thread to begin with. Either somebody that approves of the downgrade substantiates it further with counter-evidence, or this thread canprobably be closed.

        Loading editor
    • Alright. I can focus on this again.

      Leaving a counter argument isn’t the same thing as being debunked, Shake. Does Shadow using his true power even mean that he uses the raw power of the Emerald while Emerald-less or that he can like, use Chaos Control without them now?

        Loading editor
    • I'll talk with DDM and Cal myself since that's the only way civil discussions can go down. And Shake is right in that this has been derailed so I'm closing this.

        Loading editor
    • So what do I do later? Do I just make a new one after our convo?

        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.