FANDOM


  • Antvasima
    Antvasima closed this thread because:
    17:55, November 5, 2019

    Looking at Doctor Fate’s profile, it appeared (at least to me) that it might need some editing.

    - Nabu was able to trade blows with The Spectre, The Spectre also admitting that he was not powerful enough to defeat Doctor Fate in the past

    - Kent Nelson KOed an evil Superman in a single blow, granted it was by taking advantage of his weakness to magic

    - Kent took a blow from a mind controlled Superman and was only slightly dazed

    - Kent taps into “the wellsprings of creation itself,” and his power is felt in other universes

    - The Spectre states Kent was nearly as powerful as him

    - Kent manages to hold his own against The Spectre, although he is clearly at the disadvantage

    - Inza Cramer harms The Spectre

    - The Helm of Fate is stated by Zauriel to be capable of endangering all creation

    - Fate is able to undo The Spectre’s curse

    Based on the feats listed above Kent Nelson should be 2-C, Kent+Inza should be At least 2-C, likely higher, and Nabu should also be At least 2-C, likely higher. This should also scale to the likes of Jim Corrigan, who fought Nabu, and Hal Jordan Spectre, who believed his power as The Spectre to be greater than that of Parallax, who defeated Spectre in Zero Hour.

      Loading editor
    • Bump

        Loading editor
    • - During the first scan, that was simply referring to the spectre sealing fate instead of actually destroying him, and we do know he got stronger anyway by spectre's own admission, and that the spectre himself during this comic was pretty loose in the head. With his power constantly differing even without a host, btw, unbound spectre, that is High 2-A

      - Legit.

      - Also Legit, iirc, they were mind haxxed by darkseid and Fate later restores their minds, it is pretty neat for mind manipulation aswell.

      - Yeah, He does tap into the wellsprings of creation, but last time I checked, just tapping into a higher power source doesn't warrant an exact tier, like Force Users in Star Wars, Psykers from 40k, Golden King, basically every god in dc having a fraction of the God Wave in them, etcetera.


      - I am pretty sure that is just a contradicted statement, the dude did literally stop that same powered up fate who "nearly rivaled him" with a single gesture, and was stated to be stronger than any other force nabu has encountered beforehand. There is also stuff like this

      - To summarize the fight, Spectre stops him with a single gesture, Doctor fate rambles about how strong spectre is in comparison to him, some PIS about spectre not being able to divide himself, Spectre grabs him, Fate notes spectre is mentally weak, which in itself is consistent with Spectre's mental state completely changing how powerful he is. Spectre makes them both equal in size, and talks about how they are far from equals, as Spectre could kill Nabu if he wishes, Nabu confirms, with Fate stating even Nabu's power can't stop the Spectre, Spectre literally says he was holding back due to feeling pity for Fate, Fate is like "bro chill I am not defeated yet", Doctor Fate summons some monster from the Netherworlds as a last resort, Monster gets negged, Spectre just goes "alright this is it" and blasts him away from the place. This isn't a "good fight" , it is a complete one sided stomp for the spectre which barely qualifies for anything except durability basing off the last panel, but that would most likely just be spectre wanting to keep Fate alive, basing off the dialogue previously shown in the same fight.

      -  The Spectre was weakend during this 5 issue or so "chapter", with Spectre himself having a mental breakdown over his nature, which corrupted him to the point where he merged with Eclipso, the merge itself was unstable, and Jim's Soul was seperated from That Spectre, which we know weakens the Spectre. Btw, literally right after the merge we see Spectre 1 shotting Eclipso, quite different from them being implied to be on near equal grounds before the merging, which shows the power difference.

      - Legit scan, until you start thinking about the statement even more, can you really say that nearly any of Fate's hosts actually mastered the power at all? If you can show that, then we have to get into the semantics of the Inconsistent definition of Creation within DC, but this would most likely be 2-A since it is from Zauriel, Albeit, Not that supported with other feats.

      - The "Curse" Came from a Asmodel who didn't take Hal seriously and just turned him into glass and shattered him, iirc. It is not that much of a feat, also considering that fate's and basically every hero from earth and beyond couldn't even take down Asmodel directly within that comic. As they had to rely on Jim corrigan instead, which then turned into Hal coming back and taking the Spectre mantel.

      On another note, I do think Fate has the potential to be 2-A due to other reasons, like directly tanking the creation of the multiverse, The Lords of Order and Chaos being implied to be relative to true form new gods (more than 2-A lol, but still), directly threatening the Sphere of Gods and the Multiverse in the New JLD comic, and other implications we get, I don't remember the fate runs I read that much tbh. Just the spectre runs.

      Spectre never got defeated by ZHP parallax btw, all that happened was that Spectre got "damaged", came back, and did a feat which ZHP couldn't do basically (causing another big bang) 

        Loading editor
    • stated by a Green Lantern mystic named Torquemada that the Starheart is comprised of both light and dark energies, and was capable of darkly influencing the universe and other dimensions across DC via "ripples" (more on that later) , Torquemada also claims that if the Starheart isn't stabilized and if the evil half of the Starhear(that dude who looks like a cracked out cousin of Beta Ray Bill), then their reality would dissolute.


      As the evil half of the Starheart (who sort of looks like a Cracked Out Beta Ray Bill) explained, the even trickles of escaped magic was capable of influencing the cosmos, and we see that a lot of previous events and bad vibrations/feelings of hate, war, evil etc were caused by these trickles of magic.The trickles of the Starheart's de-stablization are compared to a pebble being dropped into a still pool, and we see that it was capable of turning heroes into villains. [See that woman? That's Raven during her whole 90s evil phase during the Darkening. Meaning that it was capable of influencing her soul self.]

      Alan Scott and Evil Starheart go at it, and it is implied to have reach that is felt across dimenions. From the Tower of Fate to even Hell.

      https://2.bp.blogspot.com/KN8hAGzhCqJcG4pfcpFHDJe2lfxV_-k8RRypdgxVXkLUTTEz-MNfbN-kKpyT4zH3n0uCHfYgmY23vwVmUv6P6ZkW6YTEXQfCDtA-4VmvEDpJM_T7uae3i0I8BJU1LZ2uEL9aZQ=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/ta6QTaVHBHkQHCcInY9_YwA9Ax5UQAafCDgAe8i8ziYjpXK-MKyLwXMjavSEorDYNiCDmd2Z02ZpjkGrhXCJmNAejTNxc-dFJLS-UEli459TKDIKJjhXGoco7LBx62gyNgjrVA=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/SA-Yc-jT-tammsLodR5vXS4sYIGo0Br-novtKyQyNW2zW6ryT_VDkSR7zCrVw11IlPJPhxETksuUH0Lbe3ApwWLuWdvP2gmgQI1gHgoenmmsjbSgLUYjb3T7W8D4QWKhLrxnLQ=s1600 https://2.bp.blogspot.com/TBGq6jhNK4zgcnMCOGrrRLcQa4to5Y9ur4AhIH9B6V96LUW0TVNeibyXK3_R3yFG5ow1fPTH7ZkjV842sGhoLnHVoLSjAVwlgmHBA5bXUYtPqq0_Rp1HjBthBP9WFDYpcaou5Q=s1600

      https://2.bp.blogspot.com/sQeLctsKqSkXE1BVguXDv3oAgxIrNNwSqouPUxais58Sgd7J6chK0vX-Ay_Mtn14wfQROnfZNNJiuPP56FpZsm_C6Ticbp1I3A7fsExzuWGCVX7VfRGdIccACNOinW6UW5H-BA=s1600

      "Even one to whom worlds are as grains of sand, the ripples build to waves, but before any could reach out and intervene in the catalysm, it is..." So basically fraction of the Starheart's ripples, before it can even become something truly cataclysmic, can be felt by beings who exist in the Fourth World and by the likes of Multiversal Entities like the Spectre. Eventually the Starheart is released, but not all the magic is gone (which seems to be why the universe wasn't destroyed), said GL Mystic Torquemada sealed a portion of it in a Crystal Ball for use.

      https://2.bp.blogspot.com/a0fUrPe7qrE6GMCxT7uuRGQcWQACHENOsBus74VYZkJ3jw5kjuUaOsE1X49B3pps-PADwLZIGZ0me66tziXlqE8Z4ETzMW5A1DilI5GF0P5UUiInv5VdX1Oe9TBYxA7EbbqxGQ=s1600

      Adds consistency to what the Starheart is shown to be capable of later on I guess​​​​​​, Oh and the narrative also notes that the likes of the Spectre would have intervened so that’s also important information I suppose. shrugs

      ​​​​It's energy were released throughout the entire OMNIVERSE, which we know would still be greater than a universal construct, and would atleast rival a multiversal superconstruct regardless.

      Mordu was able to completely neg a starheart Alan scott, who as his name suggests, was channeling the power of the Starheart, and then right after, he was fighting completely equally with Nabu, by the way, the scans do show that the Tower of Fate is a multiversal construct.

      So yeah, 2-A Nabu or above makes sense imo.

        Loading editor
    • Okay, so basically no scaling him to Spectre. Got it.

      Based on the way Fate was talking, it seemed as if he was directly using all of said wellsprings. And really my main point there was that he was affecting other universes to drive home the point of Kent being 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Yup.

      Hmm, after further reading the scan, Yeah, it actually does seem to make sense.

      Anyway, I am for 2-A Or above Nabu, and 2-C Kent, the former for reasons different than the OP's

        Loading editor
    • As for the ZH Parallax thing, it seemed pretty clear that Parallax won that fight, iirc Kyle even said Spectre had to sacrifice himself for the heroes to take Parallax down. And during Brightest Day (?) I believe it was implied by Hal Jordan that Parallax was superior to Jim Corrigan and that The Spectre feared him in general.

      I agree with 2-A/High 2-A Nabu from your scans, btw.

      Another thing, would Kent+Inza receive a “likely far higher” or “likely 2-A” on top of their 2-C rating? Because defeating two beings that threatened the balance of the multiverse should at the very least be 2-C, if not 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • No, Spectre literally came back right after and poured all his energy into damage in order to cause another big bang my guy.

      Kyle is just sorely mistaken, Kyle is the same dude who said Asmodel Spectre made Parallax look like a clown, btw, with Jim being a greater host than Asmodel due to the entire plot being centered around that basically. Also, The Whole Spectre "feared Parallax" thing is just inconsistent, specially for UNBOUND Spectre.

      Yay.

      Sandman already addressed they threatened the balance by leaving their respective party as "Lords of Chaos" which tipped and unbalanced the Multiverse, I don't think that correlates to stats, prolly does.

        Loading editor
    • Mm, alright, the Parallax thing doesn’t really matter anyways.

      So, revision summary

      - Doctor Fate is upgraded to 2-C in his first and second key.

      - Nabu is upgraded to 2-A or High 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • Yea, I already made a CRT regarding this not so long ago, I hope it doesn't get downgraded again.

      This scan exists btw, good food for thought.

      for more feats, to quote "AndrewBennet" In another thread.


      "Dr Stoner Anti fate possessing a part of Nabu's power was able to beat the phantom stranger. And he has created an entire universe, the one in his helmet which was stated to be dissociated from all the other realities, was created by him.

      Nabu alone was implied to be able to re-create the devastation that happened in Zero Hour

      http://imgur.com/Y0KeA8p

      Fate v1 20-22. Nabu  also defeated a being with the power of every Lord of Order and Chaos

      DC Heroes: Atlas of DCU guidebook:

      http://i.imgur.com/sbsPXEv.png?1


      Their conflict is eternal because chaos and order balance each other out, but when chaos gets the upper hand, then this happens (Dr fate v2 #10): 

      http://i.imgur.com/dZwoRU4.jpg

      "

      ​​​​​​​Also, Kent and Inza together arguably have 1-A/Presence level Hax, and not in the way you think, it is pretty funny, but deserves its own CRT, would barely be applied to vs battles and would most likely getting instantly rejected due to the idea, still fun.

        Loading editor
    • Here are some members that you can ask to comment here:

      Sandman31, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant Isn't Lephyr extremely busy due to IRL? Unless that has changed, I would suggest removing her/him from the list, it is far from personal, but seems to be more time efficient than asking someone consistently offline for a opinion on a thread.

        Loading editor
    • I’ve asked some of them to weigh in.

        Loading editor
    • I removed him from the list.

        Loading editor
    • Thanks

        Loading editor
    • No problem.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:
      Mm, alright, the Parallax thing doesn’t really matter anyways.

      So, revision summary

      - Doctor Fate is upgraded to 2-C in his first and second key.

      - Nabu is upgraded to 2-A or High 2-A.

      I am in agreement with these proposals

        Loading editor
    • Hykuu makes sense and thus I am in agreement with the upgrades.

        Loading editor
    • I'll look into deeper when I have the chance, but at a glance I agree with the stuff Hykuu proposed. I will say that Fate is in the Captain Adam class of "jobs a lot" so I wouldn't suggest cross scaling a bunch.

        Loading editor
    • That is true, but that most likely comes from inexperienced Doctor Fate's or something on the lines of that, outside of that, his Inconsistency nearly disappears, albeit he does have some pretty bleugh outliers here and there

        Loading editor
    • Bump

        Loading editor
    • We still need imput from some knowledgeable members, both here and in other current Marvel and DC Comics threads, and PrinceOfTheMorning and Sandman31 are unfortunately missing at the moment.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with these upgrades. 

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote: I’ve asked some of them to weigh in.

      Are you willing to ask the others as well?

        Loading editor
    • I have done so.

        Loading editor
    • Thanks.

        Loading editor
    • Bump

        Loading editor
    • I am unfortunately not comfortable with accepting this upgrade without more staff and/or knowledgeable member input.

        Loading editor
    • I have a few supporting scans about Doctor Fate if that might add to the discussion.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah go for it, anything that will help this revision is welcomed

        Loading editor
    • The Helmet of Fate

      As mentioned earlier, Zauriel claimed that the helmet of Fate could endanger all of creation, but here is a little more context for that statement. It should be mentioned that "all of creation" in this instance is definitely referring to the whole multiverse. In the very same comic, the helm of Fate was described as having recently traveled through "other dimensions, quantum singularities, and realms of dialectical space and meta-time, touring the spectacle of creation." It also gave Detective Chimp "infinite perception and infinite connections" by "laying bare all of existence at once." This is all a direct reference to an event that happened only a few issues earlier, wherein it is again described as having "passed through other dimensions" and "countless iterations of meta-space, under-space, weird-space, and downright odd-space." Obviously, a certain amount of this is nonsense, but the point is that "all of creation," "all of existence," and "the universe" are interchangable terms in this storyline, all referring to what we would traditionally describe as the multiverse.

      Black Alice, a metahuman known for her ability to siphon energy from even DC's most powerful magical entities, claimed that the helmet of Fate was harder to drain than any other entity she had encountered, including the Spectre. This was a direct reference to her role in "Day of Vengance" wherein she managed to drain an unbound Spectre who had just recently stomped the 5 dimensional Thunderbolt. This is not the first time she has drained a High 2-A entity either. It could be argued that the helmet only resisted her more than the Spectre did because the Spectre was both caught off guard and not in the best mental place when she drained him, but even the fact that they are comperable is noteworthy, imo. As seen in the last scan, she still apparenly considers the Spectre the most powerful magical entity on Earth, supposedly including Fate and 5 dimensional imps.

      As one last note on the matter, Black Alice also considers the helmet of Fate to be the most powerful magical artifact the world has ever known, and if she had managed to drain it then she would have been able to enslave everyone and everything for all of eternity.

        Loading editor
    • I just wanna point out the black alice thing only applied to a weakend spectre (who was recently getting completely slapped by an amped shazam), before Black Alice encountered him, we know that Spectre does literally say he isn't at full power, but just enough power to fight some Nobodies, we do know that he was completely off guard so of course he wouldn't be fighting back to begin with.

      I am just pointing out the Spectre scaling doesn't work, but the rest is fine, btw. I find it pretty funny in the context of the first few scans it was shazam who threw the helmet of fate, wild.

        Loading editor
    • Other Fates

      When it comes to being Doctor Fate, Nabu and the other Lords of Order considered Eric and Linda Strauss to be a joke compared to Kent Nelson. However, even they were capable of casually creating a shield to protect from an energy burst that created universes, and later they broke through a forcefield that even the Hindu god Indracould not shatter. This is significant because Indra claimed that if the power he possessed fell into the wrong hands it would endanger every plane across all of creation.

      Hector Hall claimed he could channel the magic of "a hundred realms" and "a thousand worlds." (It's unclear if he's repeating himself or not.) He also once managed to punch Nabu's lights out.

      And the combined forces of Hector Hall, Kent and Inza Nelson, and Eric and Linda Strauss was enough to forcibly drag Nabu into the Amulent of Anubis and keep him trapped there without power.

        Loading editor
    • - Agreed

      - Nabu taking mortal form makes him far weaker

      - Seems legit, pretty sure constantine did the same aswell

      Anyways can we chill with the scans for a second and wait for sandman and POTM (if needed, they did dip outta nowhere)

        Loading editor
    • I don't think Nabu was mortal at the time Hector punched him. I could be misremembering, but I think the fight happened inside the amulent and both parties were sort of spirit beings. (I don't know how you scale that.) I also had one last post I wanted to make regarding some earlier mentioned misconceptions, but if you would rather me stop for now, I will.

        Loading editor
    • Wait if they were spirit beings then how did Nabu get PUNCHED?

      Anyway, yeah, you can address the misconceptions if you want

        Loading editor
    • I dunno. Fate logic. At that time in continuity, Hector and Nabu sort of took turns going into the amulent and out of the amulent to inhabit Hector's body. Sometimes they're both in there at the same time, and they can shake hands, comfort each other, slap each other, etc, but it's clear that they only exist in spirit.

        Loading editor
    • Rip pretty sure Nabu isn't even physically strong aswell 

        Loading editor
    • Some Misconceptions

      Long ago, Kent and Inza Nelson used to be considered multiversal when working together as a single Doctor Fate. This tiering came from a battle he fought against Vandaemeon and Ynar, a renigade Lord of Chaos and Lord of Order respectively, who together supposedly threatened the multiversal balance in Immortal Doctor Fate #3. However, this tiering was later rejected- the feat no longer being considered multiversal- because Vanaemeon and Ynar supposedly only threatened the multiverse by virtue of being a hostile force that the other Lords of Chaos and Order were not willing to oppose, as doing so would necessitate first weakening their defenses against each other. You can see the situation explained in detail here. And while this described stalemate is an accurate summary of events, I do not think it is what makes Ynar and Vanaemon a threat to the multiverse in that story. If you reread the provided scan, Chaos and Order refusing to back down is simply used as an explanation for why Vanaemeon and Ynar were able to team up and hatch their scheme for multiversal domination in the first place. The danger they pose to the multiverse is more complicated than that.

      Within the story, Ynar tricks Doctor Fate into investigating a strange mystical gem only to trap him inside of it without him knowing. From there, Fate, assuming he is in another dimension, finds himself in a tough fight against Vanaemon, where he really goes all out and even burns his sigal into the Lord of Chaos. Then after escaping, he discovers that this was all a coordinated effort by the two lords to imbue the gem with Fate's powers in addition to Vanaemon and Ynar's own powers, which they will then use to rewrite the multiverse. You can see them plotting to "refashion" the multiverse after Fate's death right here. You can see Fate lamenting that the gem is disrupting the multiverse here. The world was ending. Inza Nelson and the Tower of Fate were the only two things seemingly unaffected by the gem. Doctor Fate's initial attempts to break the gem were futile because an amped Vanaemon was easily capable of stopping him, so Nabu fused Inza and Kent into a more balanced and powerful Fate, they shattered the gem, and they easily banished the renegade Lords of Order and Chaos . I see no reason why this should not qualify as a multiversal feat. The refusal by other lords to intervine had little to nothing to do with how Vanaemon and Ynar were reshaping the multiverse, as far as I can tell. That being said, it is a weird story and I'm open to hearing other thoughts on the topic.

        Loading editor
    • Agreed.

      Hell, even if we do take the original interpretation of "they only threatened the multiverse cus imbalance", that would literally be presupposing they are multiversal constants to begin with. It is a self defeating argument.

        Loading editor
    • Well, that's all I got. I was also going to say a thing about Kismet and the Phantom Stranger, but I'm tired now and this probably isn't the place for that anyway.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, Kismet being a buffer between the 2 factions literally doesn't mean anything when she is firstly, more consistently described a lord of order during her first appearance, and secondly, that would just mean she belongs to both, so Nabu's statement still applies and scales.

      Anyway, it is best we wait for knowledgable members now.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I am not opposed to this upgrade, but I would prefer more input first.

        Loading editor
    • Bump

      I can see an argument for 2-C or 2-B when it comes to Kent. Kent and Inza together should be 2-A. Nabu can be argued as 2-A or High 2-A. Personally, I think Nabu suffered a power creep after being passed around to a lot of different writers for decades and started out 2-A but started getting consistent High 2-A feats before the end of his run.

      If keys are given to the other Fates, Hector should scale to Kent, Inza should also scale but be a bit weaker (think Supergirl to Superman), and Linda and Eric should be 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • Agreed, of course

        Loading editor
    • I am still not opposed to this, but would prefer some more input from knowledgeable members:

      KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM, Zark2099, Ayewale.

        Loading editor
    • I already approved of this over a week ago and now I'm more convinced of these upgrades taking place.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. I suppose that it should probably be fine then. He definitely shouldn't be scaled higher than the Spectre (2-A) though.

      Are any other characters scaled from Doctor Fate?

        Loading editor
    • Hold on, lemme check quickly

        Loading editor
    • Okay. Thanks.

        Loading editor
    • Well, the only one I can find that most definitely to Fate is Post Crisis Mordru. There's a bunch of characters that scale to him but I can't tell if it's to his Pre or Post Crisis selves. These include:

      Time Trapper

      Darkseid

      Parallax

      The Infinite Man

      Trigon (Post-Crisis) also scales to The Spectre don't know what's happening to him exactly tho.

      EDIT: Actually scratch that, Darkseid has been seen scaring Lords of Chaos by just shouting at them, and of course he's exactly the same entity Pre and Post Crisis. I believe Time Trapper is the same case, tho do correct me if it isn't. I think this would affect everyone else above as well.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. Thanks. I would prefer some additional input regarding the scaled characters.

      We obviously cannot scale between different versions in different continuities though.

        Loading editor
    • Mordru is an odd case in that he seems to always scale to whatever version of Fate he is fighting. No explanation is ever really given for this as far as I am aware, but he most consistently faces off against Kent, and he never faces Linda and Eric. You could argue that this scales all versions of Fate to each other, but it's really the only feat that does that so I'm uncertain of its legitimacy. I guess this is kind of taken care of in Nabu's final battle with him, during which the two are pretty evenly matched despite Nabu waning in power, but it still doesn't mesh with Mordru being considered one of the most powerful Lords of Chaos, which scale to Nabu.

      Time Trapper scales to Mordru, The Infinite Man scales to Time Trapper, and Parallax also scales to Time Trapper.

      Darkseid can scale to Kent, but we cannot scale him to the Lords of Order and Chaos because of how weird that meeting was in my opinion. First of all, it ocurred during the Eric/Linda era, when Fate characters were being downplayed a lot. Even Nabu was only described as a universal consciousness during that run. Secondly, Chaos claims they don't actually fear Darkseid but instead respect him as an agent of theirs. It's unclear which one is correct. And thirdly, the entire event was retconned as not being Darkseid but instead Desaad disguised as Darkseid. It's clear nobody was really happy with how the interpretation turned out.

      Trigon should scale to both the Spectre (being in the same tier of power) and Dr. Fate directly (likely being above his strongest incarnation).

      The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) can scale to a 2-A Fate, but he cannot scale to a High 2-A version. Fate has High 2-A feats later in his run (one even involving a High 2-A Spectre), but these feats do not start ocurring until years after Crisis on Infinite Earths. What you want to do with that information is your own perrogative.

      The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should scale above Parallax.

      Pre-Crisis Superman also scales to Kent, but I don't know how much that matters because Kent is still probably beyond him at the end of the day. He's been shown doing things like staggering Fate with his punches, surviving Darkseid, threatening Fate with the help of Martain Manhunter, threatening Darkseid with the help of Supergirl, taking hits from Time Trapper, etc. Being comperable isn't being equivalent, so I don't know if it warrants an upgrade, but it's only relevant if Kent Fate specifically gets a 2-B tier.

      The Phantom Stranger scales equivalent to or above the most powerful version of Doctor Fate. The version used on this site specifically scales to a form of magic explicitly stated to be above Doctor Fate.

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan seems to make sense.

      What would you suggest as a solution?

        Loading editor
    • Well, Nabu needs a 2-A key at a minimum, which makes Mordru our first big problem due to the number of people he scales with.

      I can understand why people would want to scale him to Nabu, but if we do that, it will kind of mess with our scaling chain by necessitating that Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Parallax, Spectre (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, and Pre-Crisis Superman all upgrade to 2-A.

      So there are roughly three options for dealing with this. Either we can scale Mordru to Kent exclusively, we can give him "Varies between [Kent] and [Nabu]," or we can give him something like "At Least [Kent], Possibly [Nabu]" or "At Least [Kent], Likely [Nabu]."

        Loading editor
    • Well, I definitely do not think that it is a good idea to scale all of those characters to 2-A.

      Mordru seems to have been treated in an extremely inconsistent manner in terms of power-level.

        Loading editor
    • Mordru is one of those odd characters who was more affected by Zero Hour than he was the Crisis on Infinite Earths. He was originally more associated with the Legion of Super-Heroes than the Lords of Chaos. His relevance to Chaos was mostly religated to his role in Amethyst's series, which takes place almost entirely disconnected from the rest of the DC universe. After being defeated by her, he was sealed until the Legion of Super-Heroes series, where he was most often treated as an equal to the Time Trapper.

      However, after Zero Hour seriously restructured the Legion of Super-Heroes continuity, Mordru essentially just moved into a Dr. Fate villain slot, and he has been treated more or less like his arch-nemesis ever since. He scales to Fate (Hector Hall) because he's expected to fight Fate, but you'd think his nature as such a prominent Lord of Chaos would scale him to Nabu, along with a few of those feats referenced above by Hykuu.

      In lieu of better options, it might be wise to treat Mordru as inferior to Nabu due to a lack of substantial equivalent high end feats. This solution would also work with Amethyst's tendancy to walk all over him, despite her also existing as a Lord of Order. I'd recommend either giving him an equivalent rating to Kent or giving him a "[Kent Tier], Possibly [Nabu Tier]" rating. Either way, only upgrade scaled characters to his Kent Tier specifically. Frankly, his profile probably needs larger revisions of its own somewhere down the line.

        Loading editor
    • I think these are my proposals.

      2-A: Nabu, Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), Trigon, The Phantom Stranger

      Either 2-B or 2-C: Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Pre-Crisis Superman

      2-C: Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)

      Mordru = Either "[Kent Tier]" or "[Kent Tier], Possibly Higher"

        Loading editor
    • You seem to make sense in your evaluation. I think that remaining at a 2-C rating seems more consistent for the second column of characters.

      Which of the Mordru options would you favour?

        Loading editor
    • Also, here are some other members that you can ask to give input here:

      Matthew Schroeder, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, Zark2099, Lord Tracer

        Loading editor
    • I think I'm more supportive of Modru being "[Kent Tier], Possibly Higher," since there is evidence to suggest that he may be suppressed when battling in a physical form.

      Aside from that, I would prefer to hear from a few other people who took part in this thread before any of my proposed changes are implimented. See how they feel about it all.

        Loading editor
    • Shouldn’t Superman’s clash with Jaxon be considered 2-A since it affected all timelines but one?

        Loading editor
    • We have thoroughly discussed the Jaxon feat before, and reached the conclusion that 2-A would be too much of an outlier compared to Superman's other feats.

      You can ask Matthew and the other people I mentioned earlier to comment here regarding it though.

        Loading editor
    • To be fair there is also a supporting feat for it in the form of Supergirl heavily damaging Anti-Monitor's body, tho that was also discarded as an outlier.

      I'm fine with whichever option.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, I was thinking that the Anti-Monitor thing would support 2-A Superman as well. I’ll ask some others about it though.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: Also, here are some other members that you can ask to give input here:

      Matthew Schroeder, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, Zark2099, Lord Tracer

      You should ask these people to comment here.

        Loading editor
    • Oooooooooooh boy. I don't know what to say, honestly.

      I'd say to wait out a few more opinions.

        Loading editor
    • Agreed.

        Loading editor
    • I’ve asked Matt and a few others to give input.

        Loading editor
    • Thank you for the help.

        Loading editor
    • If Pre-Crisis Superman were agreed to be 2-A, then I see no reason why everybody else we are discussing here today would not also be 2-A. It would give the Helm of Fate a more consistent power output and resolve the scaling issue with Mordru as well. I'm not necessarily pushing for it, but it would be dishonest to say that it doesn't make some amount of sense in the discussion we are having.

      Regardless, I'm also fine with my above listed revisions if I can find a couple people who agree with them. In particular, I'd really appreciate two cents from Hykuu, LordTracer, and SuperAPM, who have each contributed significantly to this thread.

        Loading editor
    • Hm, 2-A does seem to make sense scaling wise. I'm more in favor of that option right now but I'm still fine with the other proposals as well.

        Loading editor
    • Come to think of it, is this really the right place to be discussing Superman revisions? That sounds like it's going to effect a lot of other characters. Maybe we should go with my above proposals that vary between 2-C and 2-A but leave the door open for somebody to discuss Superman at a later date on his own thread? I don't really know how this is usually done.

        Loading editor
    • If 2-A Superman is rejected, then I’d be fine just going with @ClassicNESfan’s proposal. But I think 2-A for the Pre-Crisis guys is better.

        Loading editor
    • Matthew and others thought that it would be too inconsistent with Superman's other feats, except for fighting the Anti-Monitor. As such, we preferably need more knowledgeable input.

        Loading editor
    • Well, if that's the route we've settled on, then we might as well start by looking at the evidence. Aside from fighting the Anti-Monitor, possibly restoring infinite timelines with Jaxon, scaling to Supergirl's fight with the Anti-Monitor, and making our current scaling chain more consistent, does anyone have any additional Superman feats that might be classified as 2-A?

        Loading editor
    • A bunch of lower Tter Lantern's were involved in the Jaxon timeline feat. Other than that probably not, but personally I'd say that's enough evidence. 

        Loading editor
    • I agree with SuperAPM, I think that’s enough for 2-A Pre-Crisis.

        Loading editor
    • My apologies, but we need more input from members I know to be reliable regarding DC Comics.

        Loading editor
    • 2-A Pre-Crisis Superman and Supergirl is a big no.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. Do you have suggestions for how we should solve these scaling problems?

        Loading editor
    • I mean, we could just solve the problem by going with my original proposal. It would keep Superman at 2-C (or 2-B at the most) and Mordru could be dealt with by giving him a "Possibly Higher" add on to his tier.

        Loading editor
    • To be honest I don't really see the issue with it, but I'm fine with ClassicNESfan's proposal's

        Loading editor
    • Same. Like I said I’d just go with his proposal if we can’t get 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not strictly opposed to Pre-Crisis Superman being 2-A, but either way, Doctor Fate and his cast definitely need an upgrade. Pre-Crisis was a time of even more inconsistencies than comics see today, so it wouldn't surprise me if Superman had some legitimate 2-A feats from that era in addition to legitimate feats that rank much lower and treat that level as his limit instead. My problem is that it's almost subjective at that point when considering which tier to go with. Fate and his crew, on the other hand, are objectively being lowballed right now and in desperate need of revision. I just don't want to lose focus of the original problem too much. Then again, I'm not exactly an expert in the standard operating procedure around here.

      Proceed however you more experienced members would prefer, be it upgrading Superman or upgrading Fate and Co right now to focus on Superman in a different thread. Either way, I'll just be waiting over here to chip in when I hear something I can add to.

        Loading editor
    • I am not opposed to upgrading Doctor Fate, but upgrading Superman would likely cause severe exaggerations.

      We also still need more input.

        Loading editor
    • Well, if we're passing on 2-A Superman, then I'd like some opinions on whether the following group should be 2-B or just 2-C:

      The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), The Infinite Man, Time Trapper, Pre-Crisis Superman, Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss)

      I've listed them from what should be strongest to weakest. It should be noted that even Eric & Linda were capable of casually making a forcefield to protect against a blast that created numerous universes, and the lowest possible estimation for Superman's Jaxon feat involves at least several hundred timelines being recreated, so these characters are all 2-C at a minimum and likely scale fairly deep into it. By the time we get to Hector Hall, I have statements about him channeling the magicks of "a thousand worlds," but I'm open to any feats or suggestions that can help us place them more definitively.

        Loading editor
    • I think 2-B would be best. Even if Superman’s feat isn’t considered 2-A, “all possible timelines” should be well into 2-B.

        Loading editor
    • 2-B seems alright, since arguably even at the low end of the Jaxon feat it would potentially be thousands of possible timelines/futures, and at best be countless. Hurting AM could also be considered the high end of 2-B.

      Though that means now Post-Crisis/Rebirth is 2-A and the strongest mainline Supes (with Sun Dips) and hell it matches that one writer saying SP1M being stronger than Silver Age.

      What a redemption arc. Getting knocked out by Joker Nukes and Pocket Dimension Superboys to taking down AM’s brother with a beefed IMP.

        Loading editor
    • I'd still like to hear from Hykuu and SuperAPM.

      It would also be great if I could get some new feats for the listed characters rather than those already mentioned in this thread. Additional evidence is always welcome to support your specific scaling theory.

        Loading editor
    • Again, I am not going to clear any of these very significant changes without input from the knowledgeable and trustworthy members that I mentioned earlier. Until then, nothing is going to happen.

        Loading editor
    • I'm fine with leaving Superman at 2-C, but if the possibility for a 2-B or even 2-A upgrade comes along then I'm fine with that as well. Either way; I'm fine.

        Loading editor
    • In addition to that you should ask all of the people I mentioned earlier, Sera EX and Kepekley23 should preferably also be informed.

        Loading editor
    • For the record, whilst we could argue about whether Supe's should be 2-C or 2-B or 2-A based on his own feats, I don't believe he should scale to any of the aforementioned characters, whether that be Fate, Darkseid, Time Trapper or Mordru. They've always been portrayed as monstrously above him, especially Darkseid. So if the Fate upgrades go through, I believe Supe's should remain unaffected.

        Loading editor
    • Agreed.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, I agree as well.

        Loading editor
    • Can we agree then to table Superman for the time being and only discuss his feats in the sense that they are relevant because of his ability to physically harm some of the mentioned characters, meaning they cannot scale infinitely above him or anything like that?

        Loading editor
    • That should be fine yeah

        Loading editor
    • Yeah.

        Loading editor
    • In that case, I would really like to discuss whether the following characters should be 2-B or 2-C:

      The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Parallax, Darkseid, Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson), Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson), The Infinite Man, Time Trapper

      I understand that Ant will not allow any revisions until we talk to more of the knowledgeable members, but I'm only posing this question in search of a consensus before contacting them. I don't want to ask them over here only to provide an incomplete list of what needs to be done.

        Loading editor
    • All of those characters should be fine to go for 2-B. After that then all the Superman tier characters should remain at 2-C for the time being.

        Loading editor
    • I will return to this with a more thorough analysis when I get some more free time. Until then, please feel free to continue discussing without me or move forward however you see fit. This page has been on and off for weeks now. A few more days probably won't hurt it.

        Loading editor
    • Only time i remember a Superman level being, being a threat to Doctor Fate was when that panel of Ultraman knocking him out for a few panels, even with Auto Shields. This one i think

      Anybody know the issue where it came from? Kinda want the full context. 

      Either way, yeah he doesn't scale to Spectre or Darkseid or anything, but there are instances where he has managed to knock back Fate , though it was when he was caught off guard. So don't know if they count.

        Loading editor
    • Can we please put Superman aside for right now? I feel like it's more important we scale the characters this thread is actually about. Superman can chip, damage, stagger, and surprise Fate-level characters, and in some rare cases, he might even pose a threat to them, but at the moment at least, let's not treat him as comperable. It drags way too many extra factors into this. The most Supes might get out of this thread is an acknowledgement that he's deeper into 2-C than before.

        Loading editor
    • I mean i was just wanted to point out that Superman has shown instances of being able to hurt Fate, or even other Superman level characters being able to stagger fate. So that they're not always "monstrously" above him (at least Fate) which contributes to this thread. Not like i'm bringing up the Jaxon feats. 

      The argument was that he couldn't scale to Fate, but there are instances where he has shown to at least be on his radar, which is worth at least some consideration for scaling. Not trying to derail or anything. 

      EDIT: and i may not even be right about the scaling either, just curious if anyone knew the full context of the Ultraman feat. 

        Loading editor
    • Granted. "Monsterously above him" might have been strong wording. Pre-Crisis Superman and people on his level have consistently shown the ability to hurt Fate characters in the past, but the basic assessment that Fate is generally superior tends to hold up from what I know. Superman's ability to hurt Fate is what will keep him at 2-C as long as Fate doesn't dip below 2-C, but if Fate gets upgraded to 2-B, he would not necessarily take Superman with him unless he was far into 2-B. That's a bridge to cross when we get to it. As it stands, I'm still trying to develop an opinion on if Fate should be 2-B at all. I'd really rather deal with that first. This is a Fate thread. Any changes to Superman that may or may not occur should take a back seat to the primary characters we're trying to evaluate.

        Loading editor
    • That’s fair. Either way I still agree with these upgrades.

      I’ll start another thread later for possible Superman upgrades when this is wrapped up.

        Loading editor
    • Cool. Thanks. If you have any Fate feats to help me and the others determine his placement, please keep us informed. I'll try to develop an opinion on where I think Superman stands in this whole mess at the end, but I don't consider that the priority atm.

        Loading editor
    • I'm not the most knowledgeable on Pre-Crisis but I'm against 2-B or 2-A Superman.

        Loading editor
    • What about the main guy Fate?

        Loading editor
    • Matthew Schroeder wrote:
      I'm not the most knowledgeable on Pre-Crisis but I'm against 2-B or 2-A Superman.

      I mean... i hate to be combative, but if you're not 100% sure on everything Pre-Crisis, how can you definitively say he can't be 2-B at the very least? Especially since his main 2-C feat could be interpreted as a 2-B one. I get not having 2-A, but why is 2-B so unreasonable? It's not like with Post-Crisis where is fucks up scaling to have Supes be Universal+ . But since almost all his top tier Pre-Crisis Superman foes are still way above just baseline 2-B, it's not like it breaks the verse. 

      Well whatever, another time another place. I do have this Fate feat of surviving being thrown through infinite dimensions by the Spectre , and he has the durability to survive a dimension of nothingness, but i don't know how those scale. 

        Loading editor
    • I think I've come to a conclusion about the powers here, but the wiki just ate my big post explaining it all, so I'll repost it again later. Sorry everybody. Wait for me, okay? I think you're really going to like it! It all ended up fitting together better than expected!

        Loading editor
    • I know that feeling, had a really big Goku post i wanted to make and it got deleted like a year ago right when i posted. Was mildy miffed. 

        Loading editor
    • SuperAPM wrote:
      I'm fine with leaving Superman at 2-C, but if the possibility for a 2-B or even 2-A upgrade comes along then I'm fine with that as well. Either way; I'm fine.

      ^^

        Loading editor
    • I may be out for a day or two. Not sure. But I'll rewrite my full proposal when I get back. I think I found some pretty solid evidence for it all, and most of it fits together like a glove. Feel free to keep posting stuff here, but I'd appreciate it if I got to say my piece before this whole thing was submitted. Thanks.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. No problem. Fandom is buggy and tends to automatically delete posts that take more than 20 minutes to write. Sometimes it automatically deletes other posts as well.

      As such it is always safest to copy the text of long posts before submitting them.

        Loading editor
    • SuperAPM wrote: For the record, whilst we could argue about whether Supe's should be 2-C or 2-B or 2-A based on his own feats, I don't believe he should scale to any of the aforementioned characters, whether that be Fate, Darkseid, Time Trapper or Mordru. They've always been portrayed as monstrously above him, especially Darkseid. So if the Fate upgrades go through, I believe Supe's should remain unaffected.

      I think this is an important comment by SuperAPM to be addressed before even attempting to scale Superman to him. Every comics character can basically damage each other, so that doesn't mean much in grand scheme of things, consistent comparability is a somewhat different concept, that accounts for logic, similiar feat showcase, and more.

      Also, I'm in agreement with NESfan in the regards to Superman being excluded from this discussion for the time being, as it'll hinder progress and result in evaluators being confused from the actual topic of discussion, especially given Superman and Fate are from a different "weight-class" of sorts.

        Loading editor
    • SuperAPM and Zark2099 make a good point.

        Loading editor
    • That's fair, either way hopefully when NESfan posts his potential powers we can get these upgrades through. 

        Loading editor
    • Kepekley23 said that he will take a look at this and other Marvel and DC Comics threads this weekend.

        Loading editor
    • The 2-A Squad

      Out of all of the characters I reviewed for this massive revision, Nabu, Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, and Trigon are the only ones who indisputably meet the criteria for a 2-A ranking in my opinion.

      Nabu and Dr. Fate (Kent & Inza Nelson) are 2-A via their own personal feats and statements unique to them alone.

      The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, and Trigon are 2-A via scaling with the above group.

      Nobody else in this assessment scales perfectly with any of these characters, as far as I can tell, meaning they would need their own 2-A feats to qualify for 2-A, none of which I could find.

      The 2-B or 2-C Squad

      Practically everybody else in this analysis (minus one character I'll mention later) meets the criteria for 2-C at a minimum, and a lot of them scale to each other. So my real challenge was to figure out who in the group (if anybody) met the requirements for 2-B. For those unaware of the requirements, a 2-B character must be capable of destroying 1001 to any higher finite number of universal 4-dimensional space-time continuums under their own power.

      Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss) seemed like a good place to start because they are canonically one of the weakest Dr. Fate incarnations, but they still have a few good feats.

      1. Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss) fairly casually erected a shield to protect against a blast that created universes.

      2. Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss) managed to shatter a forcefield that even the Hindu god Indra could not break, despite him having enough power to endanger every plane of creation.

      The real difficulty with these showings was that it's unclear how powerful they are. They are 2-C at a minimum, but we do not know how many "universes" are being created or how many "planes" there are in creation. There was only supposed to be one universe in DC at this time, but apparently the writer had other plans. I thought taking a closer look at the run as a whole might give me some insight, and sure enough, it did. A few issues in, we get a tour of the entire Dr. Fate multiverse, and perfectly enough, exactly 1001 planes are described as existing in the story.

      Both above listed Fate feats should scale to that description. The second one for obvious reasons, but the first one because it occured immediately after Mahapralaya, a cataclysmic event in Hindu cosmology that is supposed to dissolve every realm of creation. The burst of energy Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss) shielded from immediately afterward is heavily implied to be the entirety of creation being remade.

      All that logic put together means that, embarassingly weak Fate or not, Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss) has to be 2-B as a matter of definition. Even if he just barely qualifies. Everybody else mentioned below in this section scales above him.

      Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) is one of the strongest Fate incarnations and specifically stands leaps and bounds above Dr. Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss). Dr. Fate (Hector Hall) scales to Dr. Fate (Kent Nelson) as being his only real competition for "most powerful Fate," and Dr. Fate (Inza Nelson) scales just below her husband but not drastically so.

      Mordru scales to Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), The Time Trapper scales to Mordru, The Infinite Man scales to The Time Trapper, Parallax scales above The Time Trapper, and Darkseid scales above Mordru.

      And that should complete the bulk of the job. All above listed characters qualify for 2-B in my opinion. They aren't particularly deep into the tier or anything, but they still qualify.

      The Squad I'm Unsure About

      There are three characters I am not entirely sure how to scale, but I have estimations for all of them.

      1. The Spectre (Hal Jordan)- He should scale above Parallax, making him 2-B at a minimum, but I also recently remembered that he withstood Emperor Joker's reality warping madness for far longer than The Phantom Stranger. I don't know if that qualifies him for 2-A, but I thought it was at least worth bringing up. I'd love to hear some opinions on this.

      2. Mordru- As a prominent Lord of Chaos and self-proclaimed archenemy to Nabu, you'd imagine Mordru should scale to Nabu directly, but he fights more evenly with Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), and Nabu was weakened during their only real encounter. It seems pretty clear throughout Fate lore that the proper Lords of Chaos and Order are usually much more powerful than their agents on Earth, so you'd expect Mordru to swat Dr. Fate (Hector Hall) like a bug... but he doesn't. This inconsistency might be somewhat explained in this scene, which tells us that Mordru's true form is a being of pure energy and he's much more constricted when physically incarnating to fight Dr. Fate (Hector Hall), but it still seems weird to me. For that reason, I propose that Mordru be given a tier of 2-B, Possibly Higher, but people who scale to him should be kept at a simple 2-B unless they have other feats suggesting something greater.

      3. Dr. Fate (Kent V Nelson)- The final Fate incarnation before Flashpoint. Frankly, he wasn't around for long and I don't know much about him. He doesn't necessarily need a key, but if he gets one, I'd propose Low 2-C for the time being, scaling off of our current ranking for The Spectre (Crispus Allen). I might revisit him later to see if I can come up with anything better.

      One Comment About Capes

      A lot of ado was made earlier in this thread about whether or not Pre-Crisis Superman can be scaled to these revisions, and after much consideration, I think I've decided that he cannot be.

      Our wiki currently rates Pre-Crisis Superman as 2-C, and honestly, in the context of these feats, I think that ranking is perfect. Pre-Crisis Superman is occasionally depicted as capable of damaging or chipping at Fate tier characters, but he often needs assistance, a power up, or a surprise assault to really pose a significant threat. Frankly, I think that fits almost naturally with what is being proposed here. It's about what you'd expect from someone on his level going up against Low 2-B opponents, and once you get a little further into the 2-B arena, he basically becomes an afterthought. I do not recommend upgrading Pre-Crisis Superman with this thread, nor do I recommend creating a separate thread to upgrade him from the feats discussed here. I think he fits perfectly with these revisions right where he is.

      Aaand that's all! Please let me know what you think, if anything needs to be changed, if I missed a character or important feat, etc. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

        Loading editor
    • Welp. My analysis posted this time. Eat it up, guys! And tell me what you think!

        Loading editor
    • Well, I basically agree with everything you’ve suggested here. Out of the three you’re unsure about, I’ll give my opinion for The Spectre (HJ). I would suggest ‘At least 2-B, likely 2-A’ for him.

        Loading editor
    • I suppose that seems to make sense, but we need more input from knowledgeable members. Part of the scaling may simply be standard Marvel & DC Comics plot-induced stupidity inconsistencies.

        Loading editor
    • Dr. Fate has a problem with often fighting unquantifiable entities like vaguely magical monsters or gods we never see outside of his series, so it can occasionally be difficult to get a benchmark for exactly what level of power we're dealing with. Is there any scaling in particular that you're worried about? I could do a once over on those characters specifically to make sure I wasn't too hasty with them.

      Also, do you have an opinion on The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Mordru, and Dr. Fate (Kent V Nelson)?

        Loading editor
    • Not particularly. What you wrote seems to make sense to me, but I am not the best person to ask. It is best to wait for Kepekley23 and other input.

        Loading editor
    • I will. Provided everybody on this thread is content with it, I think I'm okay with people contacting the knowledgeable members now. Sorry I held off on it for so long. I'm the kind of person who likes to make things look nice and neat before submitting them for review.

        Loading editor
    • Okay.

      If nobody has contacted the knowledgeable members that I mentioned earlier yet, feel free to do so.

        Loading editor
    • I do not know the standard method for requesting a review. Do I just go to their wall and link them back here with a polite request?

      And how many of them need to approve a revision for it to be applied? Is a unanimous consensus required? Not that I don't have faith in what I've written. I'm just still trying to learn the rules.

        Loading editor
    • Yes. That is correct.

      There are no set rules for it. It depends from case to case, depending on how drastic and/or controversial a certain revision seems to be.

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan     I agree with Hal's Spectre being 2-A. I feel Crispus Allen should scale to 2-A as well, it feels weird for the other 3 to be 2-A whilst he's stuck at Low 2-C, unless there's a specific reason for him to be at that level that I'm unaware of.

        Loading editor
    • The Spectre is a complex supernatural entity. In its true, unhindered form with all potential being used, it has nearly limitless power. Each incarnation varies in strength depending on how much of that the host can tap into. In other words, we scale different Spectre variants off of the most powerful thing we've seen them do rather than just scaling them to each other.

        Loading editor
    • I guess that is logical, yeah. But either way I do believe 2-A Jordan Spectre makes the most sense.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, that is correct as far as I recall.

        Loading editor
    • Do you have any opinions on Mordru and Dr. Fate (Kent V Nelson)? I can see you are among the list of people Ant originally recommended to evaluate these revisions.

        Loading editor
    • Mordru should be given two keys for his physical and unbound states respectively. Will help clear up the scaling, that's for sure.

      I don't think V Nelson needs a key, but if he gets one then a tier similar to Crispus should be fine due to lack of information on them. Tho if we can find scans that would put the emotional entities at a higher level, that might help.

      But then again I'm wondering what's distinguishing Jordan's Parallax to regular Parallax? Did he acheive some sort of power up alongside his possession.

        Loading editor
    • In Zero Hour he absorbed all the power from the Green Lantern Power Battery, which did allow him to harm Jim Corrigan, which could support a 2-A ZH Parallax. Outside of that... no real difference.

        Loading editor
    • So you would recommend a seperate 2-A key for Mordru's True Form in that case?

      If I remember the story right, Parallax was collecting power ups to amp himself all the way up to Zero Hour. I think the idea is that the emotional entities vary in strength depending on the power of their host. That being said, I'm unsure why they are Low 2-C without a host. All the profiles seem to scale off of each other until coming back to Superboy-Prime who was basically matched by Ion with Sodam Yat as a host. I think there's an argument to be made that Superboy-Prime shoud be 2-C rather than Low 2-C, which would upgrade the emotional entities as well if I'm reading this right, but now probably isn't the best time for it. This thread is busy enough as it is.

        Loading editor
    • Well, Superboy-Prime's greatest feat was to be knocked unconscious by a Low 2-C explosion, so it is pretty explicit.

        Loading editor
    • 2-B for his Physical Form, 2-A whilst unbound, yes.

        Loading editor
    • I have doubts for Trigon and Parallax being their tier stated, (especially Trigon), are there any other supporting feat for their tiers?

        Loading editor
    • Like I said, I do have some thoughts about that, but I don't know if this is a good place to bring them up. I'd hate to derail the thread any futher than it aleady is, so I'll just say I am aware of what you are referring to but have some level of doubt about the legitimacy of that feat. We can talk about it if you'd really like to, but I think it's tangental to the main point of this discussion, and I don't want us to get too off-topic with unrelated characters again.

        Loading editor
    • Those aren't exactly off-topic discussions when you're trying to directly scale them. In fact, it's a very in-topic discussion lol. It should at least be addressed unless you want to redo the revisions once they are passed.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: Well, Superboy-Prime's greatest feat was to be knocked unconscious by a Low 2-C explosion, so it is pretty explicit.

      I don’t see why that one thing should limit his tiering, especially when the AP feat currently on his profile is more like 2-C, 2-B or even 2-A than Low 2-C.

        Loading editor
    • @Zark2099 My apologies, I was speaking to Ant in that response. I'll be addressing you next. Sorry I missed your questions. Give me just a minute.

        Loading editor
    • @LordTracer

      What do you mean?

        Loading editor
    • @Zark2099

      We currently rate Parallax almost entirely by scaling him to The Time Trapper, but aside from putting up some level of resistance to The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) and causing the multiversal chaos present in Zero Hour, there are not a lot of benchmark feats for the character. I believe a comment in the Letters to the Editor stated that he was capable of destroying universes with his blasts, during The Spectre (Hal Jordan)'s run, he would claim that he had the power to "change the universes" as Parallax, and years later in Convergence, he managed to fight off the Anti-Monitor with the help of a half dozen Pre-Crisis characters, but those are the most concrete statements we ever got about his power. That last feat is never even shown in its entirety so we don't know how he did it.

      When it comes to Trigon, I must admit that I'm almost never sure where to place him. For such a notorious villain, he barely has any feats to scale from. We know that he destroys universes. We know that he could still destroy the universe when reduced to 1/10th of his power. We know he has overthrown Earth's heroes in a number of alternate timelines. But aside from those statements and showings with no particular upper estimate, his power is ridiculously vague. He's almost always expelled or repelled by hax specific to him, but statements continue to insist that if he were to fully manifest in the DC universe proper, he would be unstoppable. That is unfortunately a vague threat that can be applied to any number of would-be conqerors. If I had to pinpoint his most impressive power scaling, aside from apparently killing off Dr. Fate and The Phantom Stranger, as well as The Monitor considering him comperable to The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) (all the above mentioned scans), I suppose I would direct you to Raven's insistance that he is "perhaps the greatest threat this universe will ever know." Under most circumstances, this would just be another vague statement of power, but in this instance, it was immediately in the context of a conversation that mentioned Apokolips, implying that Raven considers him more dangerous than Darkseid. I know that isn't much, but I'm trying over here. He's an unquantifiable mess. At least I got something. Obviously, this does not scale to Darkseid's Godhead, but I think there's enough wiggle room with Trigon's never specified power range to suggest he's 2-A when not being removed by hax. I'm not super passionate about it or anything, though. I'm just scaling characters in accordance with the rest of the thread. Trigon has very few showings of his lower limits. I wouldn't mind being corrected if I'm mistaken.

        Loading editor
    • Unless I'm missing some feats, I don't think it would be unreasonable to treat Trigon similarly to how we treat Shuma-Gorath- in that he's immensely more powerful than pretty much every other character in the Earth plane, but he's almost always locked out of the universe unless summoned by very specific means and not BFRd later.

        Loading editor
    • When it comes to scaling Parallax, Trigon, and similar, please remember that most Marvel and DC Comics writers seem to have a very vague idea of how powerful the characters are in relation to each other. Alternately they do not care all that much.

      Power-scaling Rules for Marvel and DC Comics

        Loading editor
    • Hm, so Parallax seems At least 2-C with the "change universes" statement in my opinion, and honestly, Time Trapper's statement exclusively state Mordru can potentially become a Low 2-C by controlling the universe, and still seems far superior to him in the grand scheme of things. The chain-scaling here seems a little too loose, in my opinion, when the actual feats somewhat... contradict it?

      If he's so unquantifiable, isn't it better to leave him at an Unknown? It's better than forcing a misleading tier onto him.

      Idk, is there any solid consistency for these characters to be comparable to the Fates, who do have a solid 2-B? Except for one-off instances that is. I know I'm being unwantedly bothersome, but these are upgrading alot of major figures, so I think it is, somewhat warranted

        Loading editor
    • I thought NES placed Trigon on the same level as The Spectre because this scan literally shows The Monitor placed them both on the same power scale.

        Loading editor
    • Oh wow, I completely unnoticed that. That may be a solid enough justification then for Trigon, since it verifies it from an unbiased observer's perspective and ties into him being able to kill Doctor Fates

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: @LordTracer

      What do you mean?

      The feat on Superboy-Prime’s profile right now describes him as “resolving all the possible realities” with every strike. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that sounds 2-C at the absolute least.

        Loading editor
    • Mordru is definitely consistently comperable to the Fates. He's essentially treated as their main antagonist for a while, and they fight pretty evenly during every encounter. If you're looking for a character to scale directly to the 2-B Fates, he's your guy.

      I'm not opposed to The Time Trapper being scaled above Mordru. The Lord of Chaos did after all recruit a partner to take Trapper down in one storyline. But I don't think I understand how Mordru prevented The Time Trapper from conquoring the universe so consistently that he had to create a team to dethrone Mordru if they were not at least somewhat comperable.

      I also have no issues with leaving Trigon at Unknown, but his profile is already 2-C. Wouldn't the additional information at least warrant something closer to At Least 2-C or 2-C, Possibly Higher rather than the dismissal of a proper tier altogether? Those are three instances of him being confirmed to kill Fate level characters or higher- four if you count Raven's comments scaling to Darkseid.

      Parallax can likewise be scaled to At Least 2-C. Again, no real issue with that. But I think the fact that he currently scales to The Time Trapper as justification for his current tier is at least worth taking into consideration. Why should that scaling no longer be used on the simple basis that The Time Trapper might be getting an upgrade? It isn't as though the jump from 2-C to 2-B is particularly ludicrous in the first place, and he has no low showings to my knowledge that imply it's inappropriate.

        Loading editor
    • And don't worry. I do not think you are bothersome.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:

      The feat on Superboy-Prime’s profile right now describes him as “resolving all the possible realities” with every strike. I don’t know if it’s just me, but that sounds 2-C at the absolute least.

      That seems misleading then. He was just rewriting small parts of the history of a single universe as a side-effect of punching on his prison.

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan seems to make sense, but I am very uncomfortable with clearing this on my own. At the very least we should wait for Kepekley23. Preferably for PrinceOfTheMorning as well.

        Loading editor
    • That doesn’t seem to be what the scan itself implies, especially as Prime seems to be affecting more than one universe and is directly shown affecting Earth-Two (I think it’s Earth-Two at least, correct me if I’m wrong).

        Loading editor
    • I’m referring to this scan, by the way.

        Loading editor
    • I definitely have something to bring up about Superboy, but I don't think now is the best time. I think I'm going to continue focusing on the primary figures in this revision if it's all the same to you.

      Remember, this isn't exactly an upgrade. It's a complete revamp. Doctor Fate is missing a ton of keys and distinctions that as far as I can tell, have just never been made on this wiki. It's aready a lot to handle, and I don't know if I can juggle Superboy in the same thread. Especially not if he's so tangentally related to the main point.

        Loading editor
    • Well he would relate to some of the other characters you’ve brought up like The Time Trapper, the Emotional Embodiments, HJ Spectre, etc.

        Loading editor
    • I'm still somewhat iffy on the whole 2-B thing, I'd preferably wait for other's opinion on the matter, as this scaling seems weirdly without consistency due to not having enough instances for the characters to compare...

        Loading editor
    • Yes, but he only relates to The Time Trapper in that The Time Trapper is a future version of him. Meaning a Superboy-Prime upgrade would only be relevant to this thread if he was upgraded to something beyond 2-B, which seems very unlikely. He is how we scale the Emotional Embodiments, but that only relates directly to Dr. Fate (Kent V Nelson), who I've admitted I'm not well versed on and would like to return to later if we even decide to give him a key at all (he's pretty obscure and short-lived). I don't really know how any of this ties into The Spectre (Hal Jordan) though. I'm already proposing at least a 2-B tier for him. So Superboy-Prime upgrades would again only have relevance here if he were being upgraded beyond 2-B- necessitating we do the same with Parallax and The Spectre (Hal Jordan)- which seems very unlikely.

        Loading editor
    • Well the feat on his profile right now could be interpreted as 2-A. And as for how he relates to HJ Spectre, I was mainly going off the logic of SBP >=< Emotional Embodiments < ZH Parallax < HJ Spectre. Also again, ZH Spectre has harmed Corrigan Spectre, who you suggested be upped to 2-A, so that could be used.

        Loading editor
    • I don't really see how anything here is inconsistent. We've always known that every character in this revision (except for Kent V Nelson) had an AP yield consisting of multiple universes. There was just relatively little effort to quantify the exact number until now.

      Dr. Fate's page is in poor condition, no offense. It's missing most of the Fate incarnations, a variety of hax, and is tiered objectively lower than it should be going by both independant feats and scaling to other characters indexed as higher on this wiki. I see no reason that these multi-universe wielding characters could not fit low into the 2-B categories. Furthermore, the 2-A feats for Fate's top tiers have been completely overlooked in the past and only apply to characters who take the stage too rarely for such showings to be considered outliers.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote: I’m referring to this scan, by the way.

      That is just about how the original Crisis created inconsistencies in the history of the new merged universe. Superboy Prime's punches somehow resolved some of them. He still only affected one universe though.

      Anyway, let's leave that for another thread.

        Loading editor
    • Zark2099 wrote: I'm still somewhat iffy on the whole 2-B thing, I'd preferably wait for other's opinion on the matter, as this scaling seems weirdly without consistency due to not having enough instances for the characters to compare...

      Agreed. As I keep saying, Marvel and DC Comics are insanely inconsistent. If we do not have a lot of consistent comparisons to scale from, that usually makes any statistics derived from them very unreliable.

        Loading editor
    • I really don't understand what part of the scaling is so worrisome. I don't say that to come across as dismissive, but I genuinely don't understand it. I mean, I kind of get the hestiation surrounding Trigon, because like I mentioned earlier, his power is always just vaguely "unstoppable" and "above everybody else in the story." I can understand why you might want to be careful with that. But the 2-B Fates in particular and those scaling to them are remarkably straight-forward.

      I was able to find two feats from a run that barely lasted 25 issues- all written by the same guy- that say Eric and Linda can destroy 1001 universes. This run is both immediately preceded and succeeded by runs with Kent Nelson as Dr. Fate. In the Eric and Linda run, the fact that Kent Nelson was unfathomably more powerful than them comes up repeatedly, and it was even referenced again years later during the JSA run when all Fate incarnations essentially came together for a reunion. Throughout Kent Nelson's original run as Dr. Fate he had access to two universes he made himself, and he constantly went on about his importance to the multiverse and duty to keep the multiverse in balance and ability to fight multiversial gods and monsters, so none of that would be out of place either. He also repeatedly power scaled significantly beyond a 2-C Pre-Crisis Superman and comperable characters. Dr. Fate is also one of the only DC characters who did not change during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, making scaling him even more reliable than scaling most characters. Even when Hector Hall took up the mantel of Fate years later, he was described as having access to "thousands of worlds of magic." None of these things are out of place for 2-B, and they're all lined up right next to each other.

      Mordru is also indisputably equivalent to Fate tiers. He matches them blow for blow all the time. I can understand hesitation when it comes to activating a domino effect that upgrades a dozen new profiles that aren't really related to Fate, because sometimes DC doesn't have a grip on the far reaching consequences they're causing, but what is so concerning about 2-B Fates and Mordru? I swear I'm not trying to be controversial. I'm open to considering lower tiers for them, but I'd really like some kind of solid reason so I can be on the level with you guys. As far as I can tell, even when acting as conservatively as possible and keeping everything within half a Bacon number, the Fates and Mordru should be 2-B, and Nabu, peak Fate, and Corrigan should be 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • It isn't the characters with explicit feats that I am concerned about. It is the domino effect as you said.

        Loading editor
    • So you're more concerned about The Time Trapper, The Infinite Man, Parallax, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Trigon, Darkseid, and possibly The Phantom Stranger?

        Loading editor
    • Yes, and Mordru as well, given that he seems to have comparable trouble with different versions of Fate.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I guess that's relieving. Those characters are mostly tangental. I only included them in the first place because I thought it was important to be forthcoming about all the characters these changes would affect.

      I think SuperAPM made a solid suggestion for Mordru, though. Creating a separate key for his unbound form alluded to in JSA and presented directly in Amethyst, Princess of Gemworld kind of cleans up the problem pretty nicely. It explains why he's shown to fight on par with Fate despite considering himself a rival to Nabu. Hector Hall implied that Mordru was weaker when incarnating in a physical form.

        Loading editor
    • I suppose that might be an idea then.

        Loading editor
    • I know this thread is already overflowing with my own opinions, but would you like me to give my two cents on who in the tangental scaling group is the most/least reliable in tiering to the Fates?

        Loading editor
    • That should probably be fine.

        Loading editor
    • Without a doubt, Mordru scales to high tier Fates the most consistently. So long as there is a way of accounting for his relationship to Nabu, I think his 2-B tier is an easy sell.

      The Time Trapper also definitely scales to Mordru's 2-B form, being either equivalent or slightly above it. This causes no inconsistency because none of our current justifications for The Time Trapper's tier would be out of place on a 2-B profile. They are not explicitly 2-C feats. They just involve manipulating an unspecified but seemingly large number of timelines, realities, and universes.

      The Infinite Man also definitely scales to The Time Trapper. In fact, our only two justifications for his current tiering are based on him matching The Time Trapper and Mordru teaming up with another wizard to steal his power to amp himself. This character has relatively few appearances compared to everybody else in this revision. He should essentially bound to whatever tier The Time Trapper is in.

      I guess what I'm getting at is that Fate = Mordru is very consistent. And Mordru, The Infinite Man, and The Time Trapper all being around the same range as each other is also very consistent. Those should be some of the easier characters to scale.

      Parallax indisputably defeated The Time Trapper in Zero Hour. Twice. The defeats were both pretty undeniable, and they are also currently our only justification for his tiering on this wiki. You could argue that perhaps The Time Trapper's defeat was too important to the plot of Zero Hour and therefore should not be considered, but if we're going to do that, then we're also going to need to find a new justification for Parallax's tiering. Zark earlier suggested an At Least 2-C ranking because Hal claimed he could "shape the universes" when reflecting on Parallax a few years later. If we drop his scaling to The Time Trapper, I'd consider that a reasonable fix.

      Whatever tier Parallax ends up at, I don't think it's controversial to say that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should definitely scale above him. The scene comparing the two was pretty explicit.

      Darkseid's current tiering relies upon casually manhandling Pre-Crisis Superman, scaling above Mordru, and scaling above a character who scales to Parallax. If Mordru is upgraded but Parallax is not, we can treat his Mordru feat as an outlier, but if both are upgraded, then Darkseid must be upgraded as well. At that point, he'd have two 2-B feats and one casual feat very deep into the 2-C category.

      Trigon and The Phantom Stranger are the biggest wild cards of everybody being discussed in this thread. Both have very vague powers and a serious lack of benchmark limits.

      In the case of The Phantom Stranger specifically, it is very likely that every writer has had a different idea about exactly how powerful he is because having no official backstory was kind of his schtick until Flashpoint. That being said, he is very commonly portrayed as at least superior to Dr. Fate if not Nabu himself. He is portrayed as peer to The Spectre far more often than he is peer to Fate (though he almost always admits that The Spectre outmatches him in raw power). True to this point, our wiki's current rating for The Phantom Stranger scales him from a feat wherein he briefly matched a form of magic that was repeatedly stated to be beyond the most powerful sourcerers in the universe. Our wiki currently argues that this should put him above Nabu. It's just that we don't currently rank Nabu particularly high. I think that this is a fair method of estimation that should necessitate a 2-A tiering for The Phantom Stranger after these revisions. It would not contradict anything and would actually fit quite well with The Phantom Stranger's relation to other characters. However, if you want to reject our current reasoning and be really conservative about it in light of these upgrades, I don't think it makes sense to put him any lower than the weakest Fate incarnations. So he should at a minimum qualify for 2-B.

      And in the case of Trigon, he indisputably dips into the 2-C tier. The only question is how much further he goes. Estimates of Trigon's power are... basically singleminded. He's just portrayed as vaguely stronger than anybody else in the story. Because of that, there is no consistency to it. To my knowledge, the only time it's been suggested that he has a peer was when The Monitor compared him to The Spectre. The way I see it, you can either latch on to his consistent statements of At Least 2-C power or you can latch onto that comparison to The Spectre and use his apparent ability to kill Nabu and The Phantom Stranger as supporting evidence for 2-A. I know that second option might seem drastic at a glance, but I don't personally see it as any different from how Shuma-Gorath is treated on this wiki. Both are immensely powerful entities that scale above nearly everything in the mortal realm, but they both also have a historically difficult time manifesting in said realm and are extremely succeptable to BFR after doing so. I don't really have an opinion on whether Trigon should be 2-A or not because I can see the argument in either direction, but I do think these upgrades should at least qualify him to be At Least 2-C rather than 2-C flat. Simply ignoring four instances of him being compared to entities beyond the 2-C tier seems weird.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with these changes:

      2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unboud Lord of Chaos), Spectre (Jim Corrigan), Phantom Stranger, Trigon, Spectre (Hal Jordan)

      2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson, Hector Hall, Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Highfather

      2-C Bracket: Superman and everyone else on his level

        Loading editor
    • Technically speaking, Superman was never up for revision here, but I assume you're just using him as a reference point. Either way, thanks for the support. You've been helpful in these evaluations from the moment Ant recommended you.

        Loading editor
    • I think that this seems to make sense, but somebody like PrinceOfTheMorning would be far better suited to evaluating this.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with SuperAPM.

        Loading editor
    • It looks like we already have a few people from your proposed list in agreement, but I am willing to wait for more if they are. It's not as though I plan on going anywhere.

        Loading editor
    • Actually, I think Parallax should have an At least 2-B, likely 2-A rating. 2-B for the reasons given above, 2-A for the reasoning of:

      - Parallax fighting Jim Corrigan in Zero Hour.

      - Parallax harming Jim in Zero Hour.

      - The Spectre directly comparing Parallax to The Anti-Monitor in Brightest Day (?), although he did peg Parallax as slightly less impressive.

        Loading editor
    • You cannot scale a character to The Spectre without extinuating circumstances explaining The Spectre's current level, because he canonically varies in power even among a single host. The lore reasons for this are complicated, but that's why my revisions involving him only rely on scaling The Spectre from other characters. For example, since we can establish Nabu as 2-A, we can establish The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) as 2-A for being superior to Nabu. But we cannot scale Parallax to 2-A for managing to hurt The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) because we don't know if The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) was operating at 2-A levels during that fight specifically.

        Loading editor
    • That would still warrant a ‘2-B, possibly 2-A’ then, as for example Seven Soldiers Zatanna received a possibly 2-C (which btw would need to be 2-A now) for beating someone who defeated an inexperienced Jim. It’s possible Jim was 2-A when he squared up with Parallax, and the Anti-Monitor comparison supports the idea that he was.

        Loading editor
    • If that's how the rules work around here, then I don't have any issue adhering to them, but I do not personally think fighting The Spectre (Jim Corrigan) should automatically necessitate a "Possibly 2-A" key. Like Constantine said, he goes up and down the occult league at the drop of a hat. It might be fair to assume you're dealing with universal power at an absolute minimum when fighting him, but it's a long walk from Low 2-C to 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • (Also, Zatanna's profile could use some clean up too, but that's probably best left for later.)

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan is correct about that scaling from the Spectre can be unreliable, given that he even canonically varies in power a lot. The Zatanna profile may not have been properly updated.

        Loading editor
    • I mean it’s only logical. It’s very possible you’re fighting 2-A Corrigan, therefore ‘possibly 2-A.’ The only time I’d say you definitely shouldn’t slap 2-A on is when the character is very clearly not supposed to be 2-A. Like, for example, if somehow The Flash managed to harm Corrigan, obviously he wouldn’t get a possibly 2-A from that. So, I think the tierings should go:

      2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unboud Lord of Chaos), Spectre (Jim Corrigan), Phantom Stranger, Trigon, Spectre (Hal Jordan)

      2-B, possibly 2-A Bracket: Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Highfather, Seven Soldiers Zatanna (just cause I mentioned her earlier)

      2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson, Hector Hall, Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man

      2-C Bracket: Superman and everyone else on his level

        Loading editor
    • The Spectre (Crispus Allen) and The Emotional Embodiments could also scale to that ‘2-B, possibly 2-A’ level, as Allen did manage to... sorta put up a fight against Parallax.

        Loading editor
    • I mean, I don't really have any authority around here at the end of the day, but I think the near total lack of 2-A feats between all the people you can scale Parallax to is kind of proof in and of itself that The Spectre wasn't 2-A in that fight. We have no independant reasons to believe that the new god eminations, Superboy-Prime, or Monarch for instance rank anywhere near those levels.

        Loading editor
    • Antvasima wrote: ClassicNESfan is correct about that scaling from the Spectre can be unreliable, given that he even canonically varies in power a lot. The Zatanna profile may not have been properly updated.

      At least going by the thread that gave her the possibly 2-C, POTM was in agreement with the idea.

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan wrote: I mean, I don't really have any authority around here at the end of the day, but I think the near total lack of 2-A feats between all the people you can scale Parallax to is kind of proof in and of itself that The Spectre wasn't 2-A in that fight. We have no independant reasons to believe that the new god eminations, Superboy-Prime, or Monarch for instance rank anywhere near those levels.

      I mean, Parallax was directly compared to The Anti-Monitor by Spectre himself and a weakened Superboy-Prime was affecting all different realities while explicitly being shown to have affects on other universes...

        Loading editor
    • If this is the scene you are referring to, then I do not think The Spectre claiming Parallax has "more blood on his hands" than anybody besides the Anti-Monitor says anything at all about power. That's just The Spectre discussing a body count. And a lot of people died during Zero Hour due to some chain reaction bull that Hal was pulling at the End of Time to constrict and manipulate the time stream. It's very different from The Spectre saying "Aside from maybe the Anti-Monitor, I have never faced a foe as mighty as you!"

      And that Superboy-Prime feat is definitely not multiversal. At least not in the context I remember it.

        Loading editor
    • Going by the wording on the scan itself, it says SBP is resolving all possible realities, and he is shown to be affecting an entirely different universe so you can’t say he’s only having universal effect.

        Loading editor
    • He was definitely only affecting a single universe. Only one universe existed in the entirety of DC both in the fuller context of that story and when that feat took place. The scan is explaining that when the original DC multiverse coaleced into one universe a bunch of continuity errors were left unresolved by virtue of merging infinite conflicting realities into one. Superboy's punches were resolving the paradoxes that had previously been left unattended by the writers. It was a major plot point in the storyline, and Superboy does it multiple times throughout the event comic. They used his punches to patch a bunch of conflicting plot points together, described as ripples in reality or opposing possibilities that conflicted with each other. It's still possible that Superboy was stronger than Low 2-C at the time, but it was hard for anybody to prove being more than universial in that era because only one universe existed.

        Loading editor
    • If infinite universe are coalesced into one, I’m pretty sure that would still be a 2-A structure.

        Loading editor
    • Forgive my jargon. You misunderstand. Infinite 4 dimensional spacetime continuums were not coaleced into one during the crisis. Infinite 4 dimensional spaceime continuums were destroyed. The continuities were coalesced into one. As in the various histories and backstories of the surviving characters from the battle at the dawn of time were woven into reality as the universe was still healing around them, and it resulted in a number of paradoxes (read: continuity errors) that were revised by Superboy punching the universe years later to escape his pocket dimension.

        Loading editor
    • Fellas, we can argue about Superboy at a later date, since he isn't directly affected by the changes. How about we focus on the Doctor Fate revisions at hand, preferably?

      Has anyone contacted PrinceOfthemorning and Sandman311  yet? They tend to be the more important verifiers of the wiki in regards to DC and Marvel Revisions

        Loading editor
    • They have been contacted. We're just waiting.

        Loading editor
    • Very Well. Has there been a finalization for the proposed scaling yet? The one confirmed by SuperAPM (with Trigon and Parallax being set on undecided) should be good to use for that until LordTracer's proposed revisions are verified (which I'll be doing as soon as I get the time)

        Loading editor
    • I’m fine with leaving SBP, I still think ZH Parallax and those I listed earlier should have a ‘2-B, possibly 2-A’ though.

        Loading editor
    • I liked SuperAPM's proposals. He was among the people Ant asked us to contact for review, and Ant seemed to think they sounded reasonable. I think he wants us to wait for PrinceOftheMorning or Kepekley23 before moving any further with it, though.

        Loading editor
    • Well, realistically, no one would be reading 200+ textwalls, so it's better to summarize the posts for convienience of the reviewer. That's what I mean by using SuperAPM's accepted scaling for the time being, as it shows the revisions being accepted in a quick way for when the reviewers were to come

        Loading editor
    • I can take care of it. I have most of the relevant scans on hand in the first place.

        Loading editor
    • This overhaul of Doctor Fate's profile seeks to better categorize his varying power levels and more thoroughly account for his long history of feats, ranging from universal to multiversal, depending upon the incarnation of the character. A key will be added for each agent of Fate, and a variety of characters who scale to the Fates will also need to be revised as a result. The tier adjustments detailed below represent the conclusions arrived at by a small group of Knowledgeable DC Members and various associated users of the VS Battles Wiki.

      2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unbound Lord of Chaos), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, Trigon, The Spectre (Hal Jordan)

      2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Doctor Fate (Hector Hall), Doctor Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical Form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, Highfather

      Low 2-C Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent V Nelson)

      It should be noted that the above mentioned scaling does not represent unanimous consensus but instead reflects the general agreement among a majority of reviewers. Specifically, disagreements exist in the following areas:

      ClassicNESfan believes that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) is better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

      Zark2099 is Undecided on whether Parallax (Hal Jordan) or Trigon need a revision at all.

      LordTracer believes that Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, and Highfather are better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.


      Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think!

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote:

      Antvasima wrote: ClassicNESfan is correct about that scaling from the Spectre can be unreliable, given that he even canonically varies in power a lot. The Zatanna profile may not have been properly updated.

      At least going by the thread that gave her the possibly 2-C, POTM was in agreement with the idea.

      Okay. Then it is fine.

        Loading editor
    • Btw: Sandman31 has regrettably likely permanently left the wiki, and PrinceOfTheMorning seems to be absent at the moment.

        Loading editor
    • That is unfortunate, especially considering the circumstances. How do you suggest we proceed forward?

        Loading editor
    • Well, we can start with waiting for Kepekley23. If necessary after that, we might have to wait for a week or more until POTM replies.

        Loading editor
    • Shit. That's sad.

        Loading editor
    • Bump.

        Loading editor
    • Regrettably, neither of them have replied yet, and I would preferably need some help with this.

        Loading editor
    • I am okay with waiting for PrinceOfTheMorning, but might I ask what exactly you are concerned about, Ant? Maybe if I knew your specific concerns, I could either help alleviate them or rethink my analysis.

        Loading editor
    • I am just not comfortable with clearing changes to what POTM analysed earlier without input from members that I know to have good judgement regarding these issues.

      You can try again with asking Matthew Schroeder, Ultima Reality, and Sera EX to comment here.

        Loading editor
    • Well, if POTM is really your go-to guy, I guess I don't have any particular problem waiting for him specifically.

        Loading editor
    • Well, you should probably ask the others. I don't know for how long that he will be gone.

        Loading editor
    • Jesus everyone forgot about this lol.

      I recommend recontacting everyone, actually

        Loading editor
    • I messaged some of the recommended people who were also Knowledgeable DC members a few days ago. Nobody has gotten back to me yet.

        Loading editor
    • Well, that is quite unfortunate...

        Loading editor
    • We already have several knowledgeable members in agreement here. I personally don't see what's wrong with just adding the changes, especially regarding Fate's profile specifically, which is pretty inarguably barren and incomplete, but I'm exercising patience. Ant warned me that this could take a few weeks, and the feats aren't going anywhere. So there's no need to raise a fuss about it.

        Loading editor
    • Would you be willing to ask them as well Zark? This is rather important.

        Loading editor
    • I was under the impression we were just waiting for Kepekley, but I haven’t seen or heard anything from him in a while.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant Very well then, I'll contact them again

        Loading editor
    • @LordTracer

      Most of the staff members have been too busy IRL to help me out much with content revision threads recently. It is a major problem for me as several important Marvel and DC Comics revision threads have been left unfinished.

      @Zark

      Thank you for the help.

        Loading editor
    • Parallax should be 2-A but unsure about Dr. Fate.

        Loading editor
    • Sweet, more 2-A Parallax support.

        Loading editor
    • Um, Parallax is getting upgraded here based on chain scaling from Doctor Fate.

        Loading editor
    • Dr. Fate himself is not just getting straight up 2-A.

      Dr. Fate is getting new keys for his various incarnations, two of which have pretty explicit 2-A feats (Pure Nabu Fate and Kent & Inza Fate). Three other Fate incarnations have explicit 2-B feats but no 2-A feats of their own (Kent Fate, Hector Fate, and Eric & Linda Fate). And one Fate has Low 2-C scaling (Kent V Fate) but tbh, not much more that I know of (may revisit him later; he wasn't Fate for very long).

      The Fates are the most solid things about this whole revision. Most of them have direct feats for their proposed tiers. The ones we have some disagreement on are characters scaling from Fate (specifically, Trigon, Hal Spectre, Parallax, and the three most powerful new gods).

        Loading editor
    • Should I repost the thread summary again? It's slightly buried now. 25 posts up.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, go ahead.

      By the way, I wanna note that Ant thinks my idea of ‘2-B, possibly 2-A’ for those who questionably scale to Corrigan (ZH Parallax, SS Zatanna, etc.) is fine since it was an idea POTM agreed with.

        Loading editor
    • This overhaul of Doctor Fate's profile seeks to better categorize his varying power levels and more thoroughly account for his long history of feats, ranging from universal to multiversal, depending upon the incarnation of the character. A key will be added for each agent of Fate, and a variety of characters who scale to the Fates will also need to be revised as a result. The tier adjustments detailed below represent the conclusions arrived at by a small group of Knowledgeable DC Members and various associated users of the VS Battles Wiki.

      2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unbound Lord of Chaos), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, Trigon, The Spectre (Hal Jordan)

      2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Doctor Fate (Hector Hall), Doctor Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical Form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, Highfather

      Low 2-C Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent V Nelson)

      It should be noted that the above mentioned scaling does not represent unanimous consensus but instead reflects the general agreement among a majority of reviewers. Specifically, disagreements exist in the following areas:

      ClassicNESfan believes that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) is better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

      Zark2099 is Undecided on whether Parallax (Hal Jordan) or Trigon need a revision at all.

      LordTracer believes that Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, and Highfather are better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.


      -Matthew Schroeder has recently voiced support for 2-A Parallax (Hal Jordan)


      Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think!

        Loading editor
    • I would appreciate your input Matthew.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with Tracer

        Loading editor
    • Yay.

        Loading editor
    • Bump.

        Loading editor
    • It is very frustrating that we don't get enough knowledgeable input for these Marvel and DC Comics revision threads. I am usually not comfortable with clearing them on my own.

      I suppose that you can ask some other administrators to comment here in lack of better options. You can tell them that I would appreciate the help.

        Loading editor
    • I also agree with LordTracer's posts.

        Loading editor
    • Yay, also I wanna note since it wasn’t in the summary post that I think Zatanna’s Seven Soldiers key should also be ‘2-B, possibly 2-A’ for the same reason of scaling to a Spectre that may or may not have been 2-A during that story.

      Though if Matthew thinks Parallax should just be 2-A, then I could go with that, as well as 2-A for all the others I listed.

        Loading editor
    • That Spectre was so much weaker than already weak spectres who did their 2-A feats it's not even funny.

      Parallax should have been upgraded a longgggggggg time ago.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, Jim is noted on Zatanna’s profile to be inexperienced, hence the ‘2-B, possibly 2-A.’ Ooooor, you could just give her a ‘Possibly 2-A,’ or a ‘Likely 2-A.’ That would make more sense, IMO.

        Loading editor
    • Well, that's another knowledgeable member at least, and it looks like between him, Hykuu, and Matthew, LordTracer's version of the revision is now the standard. How many knowledgeable members did Ant want exactly before we could approve these changes?

        Loading editor
    • I believe ClassicNESfan is right here.

        Loading editor
    • @ClassicNESfan

      Can you summarise all of the changes that you wish to make in an easy to understand manner, and then ask the following members to comment here with proper evaluations?

      Sera EX, Kepekley23, Matthew Schroeder, KLOL506, Zensum, C2 of Omegon, Crimson Azoth, Eficiente, Qawsedf234, PrinceOfTheMorning, Ultima Reality, SuperAPM.

        Loading editor
    • Are you sure you want me to tap all of those people? We've already been visited and approved by three of them, and you told me at least one of them is inactive.

        Loading editor
    • Which ones have approved this?

      I suppose that you can skip Sera and Prince if you wish in any case.

        Loading editor
    • I'll re-approve the above revisions since mine is a decent ways up now.

        Loading editor
    • SuperAPM, KLOL506, and Matthew Schroeder, but Matthew seemed to overlook Fate and only really commented on the characters we are in dispute over (that being Parallax and the three guys who scale from him). We have immediate feats for the Fate upgrades, so the thing that's really been slowing us down is a handful of the scalable characters.

        Loading editor
    • That last revision seems fine

        Loading editor
    • We have a sizeable number of knowledgeable members approving at this point. Is there some particular number we need? Ever since we leveled out Superman's involvement, pretty much everybody who's looked at the page has approved. The only real discussion still being had is where to place Parallax and the three whose pages rely on scaling to him.

        Loading editor
    • We do not have a sizeable number of knowledgeable input yet. Sorry. Especially as Matthew did not go indepth in his reply.

        Loading editor
    • Sorry. I think I might be a little disoriented. You have posted a couple lists throughout this thread that vary in which members they suggest for input. Additionally, our wiki's official page sports yet another list filled with different members. I had assumed that they were all lists of knowledgeable members, but if you're asking about the last list specifically, we have only had three from that group comment. How many exactly are we looking for?

        Loading editor
    • KLOL is not particilarly knowledgeable about Marvel and DC, just helpful, which is why I included him, but perhaps this was unwise, and Matthew has barely commented. Zark and SuperAPM are fine though.

      The last list are some of the people I trust to evaluate this that are currently active and I did not remember to have commented previously at the time.

        Loading editor
    • I'll see what I can do. Thanks for the heads up.

        Loading editor
    • No problem.

        Loading editor
    • I agree with ClassicNESfan’s proposal.

        Loading editor
    • I apologize. I haven't gotten around to tapping your list yet. I will try to contact them the moment I get some breathing room, but an emergency came up at work yesterday, and I've been dealing with a lot of overtime. Are TitanCrusher101, Dark-Carioca, Hykuu, and/or CrimsonStarFallen considered Knowledgeable Members? They are on our wiki's official page for DC experts.

        Loading editor
    • No they are not. Sorry. Hykuu technically knows quite a lot, but he tends to be too upgrade-enthusiastic/not sufficiently objective going by my experience.

        Loading editor
    • Wait, what? They were all on the Knowledgeable Members List, that’s why I asked for them to give input in the first place.

        Loading editor
    • Well, I have my own list of links to members knowledgeable and/or reliable to give input for Marvel and DC Comics threads, since the franchises are so confusing in terms of being extremely inconsistent, and we can gradually end up with 1-A everybody otherwise.

        Loading editor
    • LordTracer wrote: Wait, what? They were all on the Knowledgeable Members List, that’s why I asked for them to give input in the first place.

      Anyone can add their name onto the list, whether they may know stuff. It isn't moderated, and in case of "high priority" verses, is often disregarded, mainly because most folks don't tend to know as much stuff as they claim (no offense to anyone).


      This is getting to be a slightly risque topic to discuss...

        Loading editor
    • Yes, let's drop it please. Zark is correct though, and again, Marvel and DC Comics are extremely confusing to try to make sense of. It takes a proven very unbiased and rationalminded approach to be reliable for properly evaluating them.

        Loading editor
    • I won't comment on any of that. Though perhaps Ant should add his special list to the official knowledgeable members page to avoid confusion in the future. There is an oddly low amount of overlap between the two, which threw me off earlier. I'll try to compose some nice petitions for various people to review our agreed upon changes between now and when I get home from work (whenever that may be). Thanks for being patient with me.

        Loading editor
    • No problem. I cannot add people to the Knowledgeable Members List against their wishes though.

        Loading editor
    • Based on the feats listed above Kent Nelson should be 2-C, Kent+Inza should be At least 2-C, likely higher, and Nabu should also be At least 2-C, likely higher

      For what we have and due to how variable some chars are, I agree with this per OP. Flat 2-A would probably lead to scaling inconsistencies later imo. 

        Loading editor
    • Why 2-C? There's at least one feat in their performed by one of the weakest incarnations of Fate that's just straight up 2-B.

        Loading editor
    • Can someone please provide a summary of what's being discussed here? I'm not sure what the tiers being argued for/against are, and can't really make an accurate judgement

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan wrote: This overhaul of Doctor Fate's profile seeks to better categorize his varying power levels and more thoroughly account for his long history of feats, ranging from universal to multiversal, depending upon the incarnation of the character. A key will be added for each agent of Fate, and a variety of characters who scale to the Fates will also need to be revised as a result. The tier adjustments detailed below represent the conclusions arrived at by a small group of Knowledgeable DC Members and various associated users of the VS Battles Wiki.

      2-A Bracket: Nabu, Doctor Fate (Kent & Inza), Mordru (Unbound Lord of Chaos), The Spectre (Jim Corrigan), The Phantom Stranger, Trigon, The Spectre (Hal Jordan)

      2-B Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent Nelson), Doctor Fate (Hector Hall), Doctor Fate (Eric & Linda Strauss), Mordru (Physical Form), Time Trapper, Infinite Man, Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, Highfather

      Low 2-C Bracket: Doctor Fate (Kent V Nelson)

      It should be noted that the above mentioned scaling does not represent unanimous consensus but instead reflects the general agreement among a majority of reviewers. Specifically, disagreements exist in the following areas:

      ClassicNESfan believes that The Spectre (Hal Jordan) is better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.

      Zark2099 is Undecided on whether Parallax (Hal Jordan) or Trigon need a revision at all.

      LordTracer believes that Parallax (Hal Jordan), Darkseid, Takion, and Highfather are better suited as 2-B, Possibly 2-A.


      -Matthew Schroeder has recently voiced support for 2-A Parallax (Hal Jordan)


      Thanks for reading, and let us know what you think!

      @Crimson Azoth

        Loading editor
    • I do not agree with a possible 2-A Parallax. This may be just me being conservative, but Parallax has never been written as high as 2-A in my mind, especially the fact that he has always seemed as inferior to the various Spectres and a lesser threat than unbound Mordu.

      In short, I agree with the current bands in Titan's above

        Loading editor
    • Sorry. I'm here. I've been out for several days due to a serious problem at my place of business that has needed a lot of my attention.

      @Crimson Azoth, are you saything that you agree with the standard revisions proposed but not with any of the tweaks suggested by myself, Lord Tracer, or Matthew?

        Loading editor
    • I don’t know if it’s just me, but he’s always seemed relative to the Spectres. In his two actual interactions with them, he was able to swap hands with Corrigan (Zero Hour) and very clearly overwhelm Allen (Blackest Night?). And even if you peg Parallax as the Spectres’ inferior, him being infinitely beneath them doesn’t make much sense at all.

        Loading editor
    • Yes, but as we've discussed a few times, the Spectre varies in power a lot. I always try to be cautious when scaling from him and prefer more supplimental feats. I won't aruge if everybody disagrees with me, though.

        Loading editor
    • Which is the purpose of the “possibly 2-A.” As was decided a while ago when scaling Seven Soldier Zatanna, since Spectre’s power level is wonky, those who’s scaling to him is questionable (even though I personally don’t find Parallax being Corrigan level questionable at all) would be given a rating based on their feats and a “possibly” rating based on their scaling to Spectre. Hence, Parallax would have 2-B for his feat of one-shotting Time Trapper, and a possibly 2-A for fighting with Corrigan.

        Loading editor
    • @NES I agree with the standard revisions proposed

      @LordTracer what I stated above is how I have always perceived Parallax. The point about Parallax being infinity below does make sense, but again, he shouldn't really be in any way comparable to unbound Mordu.

        Loading editor
    • Well, seeing as we've reached deadlock, I have no issue leaving it up to the newer members of the thread. It's not like I have anything against Parallax. I just fundamentally disagree with handing out varying tiers to everybody who fights the Spectre. I'll go along with it if that's what everybody wants, but I just felt it necessary to restate my thoughts on the matter. Considering the Fates are so cut and dry, this thread has kind of become more about the people who scale to them than the doctor himself.

        Loading editor
    • @Crison Azoth, I appreciate your input. Thank you. I hope it wasn't too much of a hassle to read.

        Loading editor
    • I concur with Crimson Azoth on 2-A parallax not making much sense.

        Loading editor
    • @Zensum, Thank you for your input as well. Do you have anything you might add to Crimson's analysis?

        Loading editor
    • No offense, but that’s not really a reason for him to not be 2-A. Just because you personally don’t think he’s that high doesn’t really counter that in both his displays against Spectres, Parallax held his own extremely well and even took the advantage against both. And for what reason should he not be comparable to unbound Mordru (even though them both being 2-A does not mean they’re comparable).

        Loading editor
    • No, but it is countered by the Spectre not being a good benchmark for scaling characters. If other people agree that fighting the Spectre is not sufficient evidence for granting someone another tier, given his tendency to vary a lot, then that should be considered a valid interpretation. I mean, I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask for a single secondary 2-A feat when the only thing you have to go off of is one fight against a character who is sometimes 2-A.

        Loading editor
    • I lean towards agreeing with ClassicNESfan about scaling from The Spectre.

      Can you explain/summarise the tweaks in the scaling suggested by yourself, Lord Tracer, or Matthew, that you mentioned earlier?

        Loading editor
    • Spectre's power varies extremely depending on intention, how well he uses his powers, the host' perspective, Imagination, God's will, if he uses his powers correctly, etcetera. I don't think scaling to the Spectre is a good idea at all

      By the way Seven Soldiers Zatanna didn't even beat Zor with magic, she just found a way to counter his reality warping by being a step ahead of him and strangling him, Infact, one of the main points in the storyline is that she didn't even have her magic, and classical Spectre (the one Zor fought) was extremely inexperienced and didn't really have any 2-A feats

        Loading editor
    • ClassicNESfan wrote: No, but it is countered by the Spectre not being a good benchmark for scaling characters. If other people agree that fighting the Spectre is not sufficient evidence for granting someone another tier, given his tendency to vary a lot, then that should be considered a valid interpretation. I mean, I don't see how it's unreasonable to ask for a single secondary 2-A feat when the only thing you have to go off of is one fight against a character who is sometimes 2-A.

      That is literally the point of the “possibly 2-A,” the idea of which was already accepted for other characters in the past.

        Loading editor
    • Hykuu seems to make sense to me here.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant:

      Most of this thread turned into a discussion about where to place the characters who scale to Fate a very long time ago. There is pretty much unanimous consensus on most of the brackets I proposed weeks ago, especially the Fates, considering they all have direct feats. The one area we still seem to clash on is what should be done with Parallax, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Takion, Darkseid, and Highfather.

      Currently, the position with the most support says that Parallax, Takion, Darkseid, and Highfather should all be 2-B, and The Spectre (Hal Jordan) should be 2-A.

      However, I (ClassicNESfan) have proposed lowering The Spectre (Hal Jordan) to 2-B, Possibly 2-A. This position has been supported by a couple of members but none of the approved Knowledgeable Members.

      LordTracer has proposed raising Parallax, Takion, and Darkseid all to 2-B, Possibly 2-A. This has been supported by more members than my proposal but still not by any of the approved Knowledgeable Members.

      And Matthew Schroeder has proposed raising Parallax to 2-A, but he has made no comment on Takion, Darkseid, and The Spectre (Hal Jordan), who all scale to Parallax.

      Those are the "tweaks" I was talking about earlier. The term "tweak" in this context is referring to a deviation from the general consensus on this thread.

        Loading editor
    • Hal should be "Varies, Up to 2-A" due to nearly every single Issue in which Hal Spectre appears in except the Vol 4 run we literally see him having mental breakdowns and an identity crisis which lowers his power by alot, he doesn't even want to be a spectre 90% of the time.

        Loading editor
    • @ClassicNESfan

      Well, from what I recall, I think that your suggestions have made good sense to me, but it depends on what the others think.

        Loading editor
    • @Ant:

      Right now, there is pretty much unanimous support for all proposals other than Parallax, The Spectre (Hal Jordan), Takion, Darkseid, and Highfather, but the Knowledgeable Members you suggested seem to be placing them into 2-B, with the exception of The Spectre (Hal Jordan), who they have been placing in 2-A. Matthew has also placed Parallax into 2-A, but his comments were very brief and didn't include much detail.

        Loading editor
    • Okay. Let's wait and see more comments from them regarding your last summaries before we do anything drastic.

        Loading editor
    • You can ask Matthew to comment here again if you wish.

        Loading editor
    • Sounds good to me. Apologies in advance if I take a little while to respond. I have this thread set to alert me, but I have been very unreasonably busy the last few days. I'll repost the current status of our progress once again immediately under this post for ease of access to incoming readers.

        Loading editor