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  • This is an extremely insignificant topic, however Gecko Moria should have a 3rd tag for his "Prime" he was established that he faced off vs kaido on equal grounds while in the new world. This is assuming that he used up all of his previous resources and power in that fight since he retreated from the new world to the grand line with a phobia of it.

    I am not trying to discredit luffy's victory vs moriah however after being hit by luffy and luffy exclaims his shadow should stay with him so they can be the pirate king the shock triggers moriah with a big exclamation of surprise then after luffy hits him the final time he tries to tell luffy that if that's his goal he'll meet real nightmares in the new world. After these events it is mentioned that he not only fought kaido but the fight was on equal grounds.

    Moriah seems to be drained and have a bad experience of the fight as it caused him to retreat from the new world and try to slowly amas power which makes me believe he used all of his prior resources in that battle alone.

    This does however beg the question if as boa says that the shichibukai were chosen solely because they were strong. Which before this I assumed, due to crocodile and moriah, shichibukai were recruited due to their influence. So the revealation that it was solely due to strength surprised me. However Moriah's defeat makes more sense given the assumption he was nowhere near his prime after leaving the new world but that begs the question how did crocodile lose? If shichibukai were chosen solely based on strength croc's marinefold arc feats makes more sense and moriah not being in prime after fighting kaido make sense why he'd lose to luffy but what doesn't is crocodile's lost to luffy. It's far too wild to assume that because croc stayed isolated he grew weaker unlike the other shichibukai who actively traversed or fought but I'll try and see if alabasta or impel down give some inclination why croc was so weak vs luffy because i doubt just having him touch water or liquid would nerf croc that badly, or croc's cockiness could cause him to lose, and croc must have faced off against someone who could hit him via water/haki before luffy so him lacking in stamina and durability wouldn't make sense for it. It would make more sense if robin were helping but she wasn't even remotely close to croc and luffy during their fights. This guy stopped all the rain in alabasta for crying out loud why was luffy able to win???

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    • Moriah fought Kaido and had his crew completely annihilated and I've seen people commenting that the "equal fight" quote is a translation mistake.

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    • IIRC the Shichibukai are chosen based on not only power but notoriety. Teach was a strong pirate but he wasn't known at the time Laffitte went to Mary Geoise.

      Pirates like Buggy were considered due to the big influence and militar power they have. Let's not forget that most Shichibukai have their own army. Hancock has not only her Kuja Pirates but Amazon Lily's population on her side, Jinbe had the Sun Pirates which were fairly important, Doflamingo had political power along her Donquixote Pirates and Buggy gathered a lot of important and dangerous pirates under the belief that he's actually powerful.

      Crocodile being "weak" during the Alabasta events is dubious. Marineford is full of power inconsistencies, and Croco being 8-A but suddenly becoming High 7-C/7-A/Low 6-B just from being imprisoned it's one of the biggest retcons in the manga. There's no suggestion that Croco grew weaker that I'm aware of, so I wouldn't think of that as the reason.

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    • Yea that's the same thing I agree with shichibukai should be based moreso on influence and after reading alabasta I could find not a single mention of him being weaker than current, albeit weirdly he shown stuff similar to an awakened devil fruit user and even notes to luffy that he advanced his devil fruit beyond the usual point but if he were close to an awakened user it'd make this situation even worse. The other shichibukai make sense, but croc's alabasta performance no matter what does not make any.

      Crocodile has not a single shred of information of growing weaker or lack of training especially with how cautious and calculated he tries to be(He even put a bomb on the cannon just in case the cannon itself were stopped) it would be weird for him to know the dangers and not stay in tip top shape. During impel down he was on the lowest level on this level there isn't even a remote possible way for him to train unless enduring seastone is STATED to do so, making his growth in marineford even more dubious and most certainly a retcon. Basically all the other floors I can see some type of way to train but on the lowest floor the prisoners are just left to themselves unable to do anything in isolation and detention.

      Like once again if someone helped luffy beat croc during alabasta that would explain enough but robin didn't mention poisoning croc and croc even outpaced her anytime she wanted to make a move.

      Croc in alabasta compared to marinefold is just something that should be written up to a retcon because I doubt even if one could say he properly awakened his devil fruit after impel down or due to ignoring durability that he grew cocky vs luffy and didn't bother with learning haki because his devil fruit was enough for haki users would be easily countered by there being characters with just far better feats that also use haki and if that were the case he should've washed luffy even if he had a heavier weakness to liquid than normal devil fruit users, which wasn't stated. Crocodile even prevented it from raining on the entirty of alabasta similar to how ace prevented it from snowing, like wth was luffy able to win against that. Unless oda is trying to say croc was strong on the offensive but heavily lacked defense, if that's the case due to his cautious nature he should learn haki.

      That being said I don't know how this could possibly be anything but a retcon.  Only ways I could accept this not being a retcon is if croc were stated to be weaker in alabasta, devil fruit users being detained in seastone BEING STATED to be useable for training(Not just being strong enough to ignore the weakening it causes, and eustass/luffy being detained in wano was stated to help them grow), or after finally having the seastone taken off crocodile properly awakened his devil fruit as awakening is a big jump.

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    • EcchiOtakuTM wrote:

      Like once again if someone helped luffy beat croc during alabasta that would explain enough but robin didn't mention poisoning croc and croc even outpaced her anytime she wanted to make a move.

      Personally beside the usual "he grown weaker during his time at Alabasta", the only other possibility is that his weakness, be wet or be hit by wet objects, was the reason why he was so much weak compare to Marineford.

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    • That's the thing I really want to believe that croc getting wet weakens his devil fruit vastly more than other devil fruit users AND that croc while crafty and calculated just could not adjust to luffy's wacky nature and underestimated him. However, while there are clear signs luffy heavily caught him off guard, the issue is there is no statements of Crocodile was weaker before going to alabasta, water affecting him more than other devil fruits, while connected with seastone devil fruit users naturally grow over time, or Crocodile fully awakened his devil fruit during his time in impel down.

      If one of these 4 theories were stated then the difference between alabasta croc and marinefold croc would make sense in addition to him underestimating luffy. However from what I read, how crafty, cunning, plus calculated crocodile tries to be, and no statement I can see during alabasta/impel down there is most likely a retcon between alabasta croc and impel down croc. This can be easily addressed by the author just expressing a reason for the difference but CURRENTLY he's the only previous shikibukai that doesn't make sense in comparison to the proper ones/his impel down self.

      Hell I'd even take if luffy accidentally used armament haki when he was near death on the third and final fight vs crocodile for a reason lol. In conclusion when it comes to crocodile unless the author currently has something like a databook on the alabasta luffy vs crocodile fights or a light novel on crocodile's past/time during impel down. It's a bad retcon as far as I can see. Author just has to say something for it not to be.

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